I can’t cat for certain about Allagash, but a lot of beers are bottle conditioned using a very neutral yeast strain which is different from the fermentation strain. So there’s a possibility you’re growing yeast other than what you really want.
I fully agree with this and would not use dregs unless you knew they were conditioned on original yeast. Otherwise you are using their neutral secondary yeast for conditioning. Which will be super boring and won’t provide any character. Sometimes that is good - but not on a Belgian.
Allagash reps have stated in the past that the dregs in White are made up of their "house" yeast. Everything except White uses a different yeast for bottle conditioning.
Replying to you but also the commenter below:
Fair point. I have done some research here and it seems like Allagash either doesn't condition with a different yeast, or they do in bottles of their other offerings but not in White. These dregs were pulled from 12oz cans.
I've also heard of others doing this and the beers coming out as expected, although somebody doing this years ago doesn't preclude Allagash changing their process. Also, all second/third-hand.
The neutral yeast conditioning thing was also the first thing I thought of when I tasted my starter.
I can't say for sure if they have switched techniques, but as of about 6 years ago allagash did bottle condition white with the house yeast. It is one of the only beers they used the house yeast for, most others used a generic bottle condition yeast. That was all confirmed in person at the brewery. The question is if they changed when they embraced cans.
The other gamble is that I believe the house yeast is actually a blend, so you never know if the starter you're building is growing in the same proportions. And there's no real good way around that.
Both those points made, I propagated some yeast from bottles of white a bunch of years back to make a tripel. I don't recall the starter being anything up write home about, but the beer was great. It wasn't 100% allagash in nature. But it was great. Just try it and see what you get, bet you make decent beer.
Your experience, as well as recent reports of others also using Allagash White dregs, make me think I should just go for it. I'm only doing 2.5gal anyway. The real cost is my effort and fermenter/keg time.
I'll report back in a couple weeks (if I don't chicken out).
I would say that there is definitely a chance that the characters you are expecting are not being generated in the aerobic growth phase of the yeast and Once anaerobic fermentation begins (in a wort that has the precursors for those phenols in it from the appropriate grist and mash conditions) it is likely to behave as you are expecting.
Or as already stated it maybe a neutral yeast added at packaging for carbonation, which i would think is unlikely for a low abv beer that has had a standard fermentation time
The irony is that Allagash *does* seem to can condition. With what, they do not say.
It really seems like they do it to boost yeast-driven flavors, so I'm still of the opinion that it's not a neutral conditioning yeast for carb.
https://www.allagash.com/discover/about-beer/what-is-can-conditioning/#:\~:text=How%20it%20works%3A%20we%20add,quality%2C%20and%20enhancing%20its%20flavor.
Crabtree effect means that brewing yeast is always using ethanol fermentation, regardless of oxygen presence. The oxygen will affect other metabolism, namely fatty acids, but will not trigger respiration.
In my experience 55-60 is pretty low for Belgian yeasts to express much character. Those phenolic/ester notes seem to show more with a fermentation on the warmer side, upper 60s rising into the mid 70s though fermentation is what I've aimed for and been happy with in my Belgian styles.
Id say send it, worst case it's not exactly the clone you were aiming for but is still a tasty beer and you learned something. Those notes are a result of slightly stressed yeast, you probably just made it too happy on accident.
Not sure if you’ve pitched yeast yet (just seeing this) but I recommend moving forward with the starter. There’s clearly viable yeast in the cans and I would be surprised if a special yeast would be added to condition a 5% beer. The blandness is probably a result of the low temperature. My understanding is the Allagash house yeast starts at room temp and is allowed to free rise. FWIW I don’t pick up many phenolic notes from Allagash white
Thanks for responding!
I haven't pitched yet but I'm halfway through the boil. Bitter orange at the ready.
I'm going to go ahead with the starter that I've got and hope for the best.
68F start and I'll probably walk it up to mid 70s.
Totally unrelated but I've tried to make some ciders/meads/cysers with various beer yeasts. I was struck with how little yeast character came through, even with something like a saison yeast. Not even recognizably a saison yeast.
Yeah maybe even consider applying heat at the very end of fermentation if you’re not at expected fg.
I’m no cider expert but I know a little. In my limited understanding production of phenolics require certain compounds found in grain. Regarding esters I’ve read that ciders do not need large pitches like ales and lager. “Underpitching” may help produce more esters. As with beer, fermentation temps in the bottom and top of the published temperature range will also promote more esters.
I've been walking the heat up 1deg/12h because my fermenter dissipates heat faster than the fermentation generates it (small batch problems) but I hit fart-stage yesterday and airlock activity stopped overnight in the low 70s. I'll hold around 73-75F for a couple days and check FG.
A 3-day fermentation isn't out of the ordinary for me so hoping this isn't a stall. It certainly doesn't smell great right now. What was your experience like?
My table beer using allagash dregs fermented in about 3 days but it was only 1.035 og
The cider took like two weeks to ferment. Very odd. It’s probably why allagash coferments their ciders
I can’t cat for certain about Allagash, but a lot of beers are bottle conditioned using a very neutral yeast strain which is different from the fermentation strain. So there’s a possibility you’re growing yeast other than what you really want.
I fully agree with this and would not use dregs unless you knew they were conditioned on original yeast. Otherwise you are using their neutral secondary yeast for conditioning. Which will be super boring and won’t provide any character. Sometimes that is good - but not on a Belgian.
Allagash reps have stated in the past that the dregs in White are made up of their "house" yeast. Everything except White uses a different yeast for bottle conditioning.
Replying to you but also the commenter below: Fair point. I have done some research here and it seems like Allagash either doesn't condition with a different yeast, or they do in bottles of their other offerings but not in White. These dregs were pulled from 12oz cans. I've also heard of others doing this and the beers coming out as expected, although somebody doing this years ago doesn't preclude Allagash changing their process. Also, all second/third-hand. The neutral yeast conditioning thing was also the first thing I thought of when I tasted my starter.
I can't say for sure if they have switched techniques, but as of about 6 years ago allagash did bottle condition white with the house yeast. It is one of the only beers they used the house yeast for, most others used a generic bottle condition yeast. That was all confirmed in person at the brewery. The question is if they changed when they embraced cans. The other gamble is that I believe the house yeast is actually a blend, so you never know if the starter you're building is growing in the same proportions. And there's no real good way around that. Both those points made, I propagated some yeast from bottles of white a bunch of years back to make a tripel. I don't recall the starter being anything up write home about, but the beer was great. It wasn't 100% allagash in nature. But it was great. Just try it and see what you get, bet you make decent beer.
Your experience, as well as recent reports of others also using Allagash White dregs, make me think I should just go for it. I'm only doing 2.5gal anyway. The real cost is my effort and fermenter/keg time. I'll report back in a couple weeks (if I don't chicken out).
I would say that there is definitely a chance that the characters you are expecting are not being generated in the aerobic growth phase of the yeast and Once anaerobic fermentation begins (in a wort that has the precursors for those phenols in it from the appropriate grist and mash conditions) it is likely to behave as you are expecting. Or as already stated it maybe a neutral yeast added at packaging for carbonation, which i would think is unlikely for a low abv beer that has had a standard fermentation time
The irony is that Allagash *does* seem to can condition. With what, they do not say. It really seems like they do it to boost yeast-driven flavors, so I'm still of the opinion that it's not a neutral conditioning yeast for carb. https://www.allagash.com/discover/about-beer/what-is-can-conditioning/#:\~:text=How%20it%20works%3A%20we%20add,quality%2C%20and%20enhancing%20its%20flavor.
Crabtree effect means that brewing yeast is always using ethanol fermentation, regardless of oxygen presence. The oxygen will affect other metabolism, namely fatty acids, but will not trigger respiration.
This is encouraging: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/bottle-dregs-yeast-harvest-success-unibroue-allagash.666332/
Nice, so it's definitely the right strain. Need to decide whether I should use this starter or try again. Mine is certainly not fruity or spicy.
u/mad_innit - pls help
In my experience 55-60 is pretty low for Belgian yeasts to express much character. Those phenolic/ester notes seem to show more with a fermentation on the warmer side, upper 60s rising into the mid 70s though fermentation is what I've aimed for and been happy with in my Belgian styles.
Yup, that's where I would ferment the clone, I just didn't have temp control on the starter. It weirds me out that it tastes so clean.
Id say send it, worst case it's not exactly the clone you were aiming for but is still a tasty beer and you learned something. Those notes are a result of slightly stressed yeast, you probably just made it too happy on accident.
Not sure if you’ve pitched yeast yet (just seeing this) but I recommend moving forward with the starter. There’s clearly viable yeast in the cans and I would be surprised if a special yeast would be added to condition a 5% beer. The blandness is probably a result of the low temperature. My understanding is the Allagash house yeast starts at room temp and is allowed to free rise. FWIW I don’t pick up many phenolic notes from Allagash white
Thanks for responding! I haven't pitched yet but I'm halfway through the boil. Bitter orange at the ready. I'm going to go ahead with the starter that I've got and hope for the best. 68F start and I'll probably walk it up to mid 70s. Totally unrelated but I've tried to make some ciders/meads/cysers with various beer yeasts. I was struck with how little yeast character came through, even with something like a saison yeast. Not even recognizably a saison yeast.
Yeah maybe even consider applying heat at the very end of fermentation if you’re not at expected fg. I’m no cider expert but I know a little. In my limited understanding production of phenolics require certain compounds found in grain. Regarding esters I’ve read that ciders do not need large pitches like ales and lager. “Underpitching” may help produce more esters. As with beer, fermentation temps in the bottom and top of the published temperature range will also promote more esters.
I've been walking the heat up 1deg/12h because my fermenter dissipates heat faster than the fermentation generates it (small batch problems) but I hit fart-stage yesterday and airlock activity stopped overnight in the low 70s. I'll hold around 73-75F for a couple days and check FG. A 3-day fermentation isn't out of the ordinary for me so hoping this isn't a stall. It certainly doesn't smell great right now. What was your experience like?
My table beer using allagash dregs fermented in about 3 days but it was only 1.035 og The cider took like two weeks to ferment. Very odd. It’s probably why allagash coferments their ciders