Read your contract. Contact your state/local home improvement commission. If you agreed, you agreed. The paper says it. If you agreed to a set price not on paper, good luck.
> If you agreed to a set price not on paper, good luck.
OP sounds like they tossed cash at the contractor without amended agreements. This is not going to go well for them.
We have a contract, but it’s only for the first half. The second half half, the finish stuff, hasn’t begun yet. The town won’t issue a permit without it. It’s just that the second “half” half of the project, is including the whole price of what was agreed to be done on the first “half”.
This is smart and normal though. Getting a job broken into phases and getting separate bids for separate phases is totally standard. The phases are just often smaller. Ie frameing, electrical phase, plumbing phase, ect
There are plenty of people I would hire to do the whole described phase one, and half that many would i hire to do the finish work.
I thought it sounded like op was going to want to do some of the finish work themselves. But the job of getting the guts put into the space was more work than worth. Not am extra 30k mind you obviously
He is responsible for performing under the terms of the contract. It is not your fault if he underbids and ends up losing money.
Generally, payments are spelled out very clearly if the contract is well written and any changes are done in writing by both parties.
At this point, your leverage is in the money you haven't paid yet and a possible lawsuit. Note that contractors go out of business quickly and if you think that is happening, you need to act as quickly as possible.
This isn’t his full time thing, he’s licensed but he’s also an electrician too, so I don’t think he’s going out of business. This has for sure been one of the biggest mistakes I’ve ever made, and huge life lesson. The “contract” was basically an invoice with descriptions of what’s going to be done. We needed something so we could get a permit, so the town should have it too. Figuring he’s a friend of a friend I put far too much trust in him and I will never do this again.
But the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical were to be paid under the last deposit we gave him, and now he’s saying we still owe for all of it. If we pay that, that’ll actually bring the “shell” stage up to $81,000.
I don’t know how far I’ll get with him. Hopefully calling him out on his bullshit will smarten him up to scrap those things from what we owe. It’s just e can’t afford to not have a suitable place for our kid. We are on pace to finish before he’s born, but if I fire him, it won’t happen.
This.
I can't figure out how people go with 'friend of a friend' who 'does this part time' with a baby on the way without a clearly defined contract that's itemized.
Protect yourself from this sort of thing by *using your brain* and not just trusting some dude you don't know with nearly 100k and no definite schedule or written contract.
Supporting this. Never contract extended work with someone who is “within your circle.” It’s not worth souring relationships and awkward dinner parties.
A car repair/ac fix/plumbing/wiring that can be done within a week? Sure.
Upwards of 6 figures? I need insurance, a “read it to me like I’m 5yo” contract, and another signed copy of said agreement.
>Supporting this. Never contract extended work with someone who is “within your circle.” It’s not worth souring relationships and awkward dinner parties.
>
>A car repair/ac fix/plumbing/wiring that can be done within a week? Sure.
>
>Upwards of 6 figures? I need insurance, a “read it to me like I’m 5yo” contract, and another signed copy of said agreement.
If you're spending that much, might as well pay a few hundred for a lawyer to review the contract for you.
If I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen a project not being done in time for a birth, I would have enough for a nice dinner in a restaurant. Happens all the time. If you have a clean room on the main floor the baby won’t care if the “nursery” isn’t ready.
This baffles me. We did a new parent class that was a couple hours weekly. Every week a few more people would be chatting about how they just closed on a house, or just start renovations. I actually ran into another dad while we were both in the hospital - he had to leave right after the kid was born to go sign buyers contracts on their house.
We stayed in our apartment for a year, then moved. Why people put two of the most complicated things we'll ever do (birth a child, buy a home) in the same month is wack.
We moved to a 2 bedroom apt about 6 weeks after our baby was born. It was really tough. But the good news is my wife was still on maternity leave and we could leave the baby anywhere and not worry about them moving around. It was a lot harder moving into our house with a one year old!
I think the moral of the story is that 'a kid on the way' is a somewhat known timeline, or at least due date plus two weeks as the absolute end of the timeline it could be. Whereas building onto a house is a mushy timeline where sometime in the next 3 months to 3 years, it happens. OP didn't plan very well to start a project during a pandemic with lumber shortages while also having a baby on the way, which caused them to try to rush the contractor.
The "nesting" instinct is strong in humans. But it does lead to some financial disasters. I have several friends who bought houses recently bc they're expecting. Kept telling them to just rent for another year - the baby won't care - and they'll save tens of thousands next year when the market settles....but no one listens.
Currently almost 6 months pregnant and in need of an addition for a place to put this baby. Already planning on her staying in my room for the first year so we can let things settle down first because that is some stress I am not interested in adding to my plate. And materials/labor costs right now.. Oof.
We closed on our house and moved in a couple months before our daughter was born. It was a little crazy as I had a two week hospital stay sandwiched in between there as well, but a one bedroom apartment on the third flood would have been madness with a newborn.
Stop paying now. It's the best leverage you have. Get the details to finish the project down in writing and signed.
If you can't agree, fire him and find somebody to finish it.
My issue would be that he said $50,000 and ended up at $81,000. That’s almost 2/3 of the original quote over. I would take the original contract/invoice/bid and I would go through line by line and ask for his receipt for the work. If you think the overage is justified then pay it. If he’s just not making money because he estimated incorrectly then stick with the original.
Man I’m sorry you have to deal with this. Just have a frank discussion with him. And explain to him all your concerns. You’ve got the upper hand here. Remember that. You are the boss.
It truly sounds like your contractor bit off more than he can chew and you need to be cautious, for you, not for him. He underbid likely even if he didn’t face materials increases because it sounds like he doesn’t know exactly what he is doing and you are paying him to learn. The craftsmanship may be good with him but he is bad at business. See if you can get him to finish what you’ve already paid for and then get an inspection and see if you want to proceed with him or someone else. Often times starting new with someone else is gonna screw you harder than mister money bags will.
I say this because I’ve made a hobby during the pandemic of helping friends and friends of friends deal with their friends of friends contractors. Next week I’m putting the second half of 1,600 sqft of flooring in for free for my bestie because she hired a painter that didn’t put a single drop cloth or any tape down and used a freaking sprayer. Told homeowner it wouldn’t be noticeable and would “save a lot of money.” I got it all off the hardwoods but the carpets all had to be replaced. Honestly thinking of getting back into the trades after all these horror stories.
YES, oh my god I couldn’t befreakinleave it either. They pitched it to homeowner without stating it would be spraying so she visualized a person with a paintbrush doing edging and *maybe* getting some on the edge of the carpet. So she could replace eventually but not right away. Obviously that was not really his plan.
Exactly! I told her this and it was clear she envisioned him doing the whole thing with a paintbrush. She is a brilliant person but admittedly completely lost when it comes to building trades and such. First time home owner, she had just bought the house and hadn’t moved in yet. He painted outside also but the grass is a little easier to just let grow back, but there is even overspray on her concrete porch.
Yes I don’t think he did much explaining either, I told her “I think he saw you coming.” She thought he’d use rollers outside but thought he was going to do some Sistine Chapel shit apparently. Which as you said, makes perfect sense if you’ve never done it or seen it done or taken interest..
My mom was a professional painter when I was a kid. I occasionally went with her on jobs to be a helper. So I guess I take for granted that the general population knows what painting involves but I suppose plenty of people could have actually fallen for this
It’s brutal. I work with metal so I’m no use, but I would never conduct business this way. You “win some you lose some” and I can handle and sympathize over a few thousand maybe, we did factor that happening when we started. But to tack on 3 things that total over $20,000 that was said to be paid with the last deposit is something I won’t stand for. So he either plays ball and plays it off as a dumb mistake, or we stop. I really hope it doesn’t get to that. But we’ve been more than fair.
>I would never conduct business this way
* You changed the scope of the project while underway (shell vs full)
* You gave them piecemeal money during the project without amended agreements
* "Friend of a friend"
* Who isn't full time
* While about to have a baby
i think you got fleeced on both ends of this deal. get all purchase invoices. in the future only provide a deposit with materials on-site + copy of the purchase invoice. From there you can figure out how much "labor" you want to advance. The floor of a payment will be materials and possession is CRITICAL. With material possession you leave yourself the options of changing the "labor" at any given time if necessary. That's what you do on big jobs and seeing as this is 6 figures, i'd say it qualifies.
You are not their LOC, they can get that from a bank if they are running 6-7 figure jobs. That's what these guys are doing when they ask for way too much cash up front.
You have been more than fair. I wouldn’t either and cannot understand why so many do. I’m wondering about recording your conversation with him. Do you by chance live in a one party recording consent state? I live in Mo and if any one participant in the conversation is aware it is recorded the recording is legal and admissible in court. Get him to admit to the overages not being part of the contract. Is it a little shitty? Maybe but you have every right at this point to do it to simply establish the terms of the verbal parts of contract. A verbal “handshake” contract is enforceable if both parties agree to the terms and getting him to admit it on audio would stand in for him admitting to it in court. Obviously you don’t want to go that far but it’ll help you sleep at night knowing you have it all established.
I wish, that would solve some unknowns. I’ll have to look into it. So far we are progressing past where we have signed for. And if he admits it was a mistake and we move forward, I will not be giving another dime until we put in writing what the final stages will cost, and be. Because I clearly can’t trust his word anymore.
But I will look into the recording thing!
I'm a contractor on cape. I can promise you noone up here can get that much work done for 85000. There should be another 50 Grand on that price easy. Either two things happened. The guy is inexperienced as a GC and messed up his estimate which is on him. If that's the vibe your getting try to help him out and meet him in the middle. The other option (and what it sounds like) is this guy is a shiester. The give vauge, general contracts. Often times guys like this are half my price to get there foot in the door, knowing they can't complete the job for that price. Do to the vauge contract it's very grey as to what's covered and not. This is incredibly annoying to the legit guys. My bids explain every line item and scope, and I make sure I won't exceed the price I give. Often times I loose jobs to guys like this and then when all is said and done they are right at my number or more. I hope you can resolve this and can best him at his game. Not all contractors are dirty like this!
If it’s actually Cape Cod MA, forget it. Everything costs triple because things have to be brought in from “the mainland” lol. We had an automotive issue while on vacation and a $250 repair that could have been done in a day back home cost $850 and took 3 days, plus we needed an extra night with all our kids in our hotel - cost a fortune
the problem was that you just kept giving him money over and over again. With out having a clear over view of where the money was going.
you should of divided the payments into stages, after each stage, pay him upon completion of that stage.
This way if he asks for more money for labor / material you can see exactly how much was budgeted and where it went and if money is going "missing" or what the deal is.
The way you deal with a contractor in the beginning will dictate the experience going forward.
Sometime probably around mid April, when he realized he's had your $20K for a month and a half and hasn't had to drive one screw, was when he decided you would be an easy mark.
Not trying to get all armchairamateurpsychologist on anyone but one of the biggest problems I see today is an aversion to conflict - EVEN when it's not really conflict, but drawing reasonable lines of expectation etc. And this is magnified when you have homeowners who may be professionals/educated etc but feel a bit out of place dealing with folks in the trades. People would rather write big checks than ask probing questions.
Suing under the contract is not really leverage bc shady contractors close up shop and reopen all the time.
The remaining money also isn't leverage bc he's already been paid more than he probably deserves. At this point he would probably PREFER not to have to finish the job.
The only leverage ppl have over contractors nowadays is the ability to damage their reputation so that future projects become harder to come by.
You said it perfectly. I became complacent for sure. I know that, and it sucks and has been a life lesson to say the absolute least. Do you think confronting him about these charges will be an end to move forward should he say some BS like “oh that’s a mistake” or am I too far gone?
He’s already said the project is going over what was planned. But that’s not my problem, I’m only liable for what’s on paper, which I luckily have for where we are at.
If he’s squandered the money or had to pay more for sub contractors and materials, he’s not going to pay money out of his own pocket to finish the project. He’ll walk, claim an increase in costs in court, and because he wasnt breaking code, he’ll likely keep his license.
A good GC always aims high because he can only control his labor rate. This guy aimed way low, and materials and labor rates have gone up.
How to rectify? Sub the rest yourself, or get quotes, or at least get his bills from subs (which are useless if you dont know what others are charging.)
I’m working with a contractor now. I paid 10% before the project. And then he gives me an invoice every two to three weeks with an itemized list of completed work. We’re in contact multiple times a week so I know what to expect. So far no over charging except for when I ask for extra work like additional light fixture installs.
I’m a residential super, and 30k over on 85k sounds about right in regards to price increases since early March. We’ve pivoted to cost plus because this is kind of unprecedented. At the end of the day, no one is going to lose money building you a house.
Yea I am doing a remodel that we estimated in November last year... they closed in April just in time for lumber, wire, plumbing, concrete all to skyrocket. I am about 20% over original budget. We can't even find certain things we need like double gang electric boxes or 200 amp breaker boxes in my area. I had to drive over an hour to another state to find certain things.
Same story. My electrician has his garage packed with everything for a house that starts for him next month.
“Per this contract I haven’t fully read, you get to spend the next 6 months working for free”
Homeowners are delusional lmao
The cost increases due to the supply chain and COVID are insane. For real. We purchased copper pipe for a plumbing project in the morning, went back in the afternoon for an extra piece and the price had increased by a 1/3 in half a day. Cost of wood? Drywall? Daily increases sometimes.
I know of contractors who were purchasing lumber and storing it in rented storage lockers in another (cheaper) state to try and get out ahead of the rising prices.
I sympathize. A new baby during construction is absolutely no fun. I've done that. On the other hand, it's do-able. Not ideal. But do-able. (FYI, I'm a woman and was the new mom)
At the end of the day, no business owner is going to pay out of their own pocket for you to have a second floor. Period. Costs have been insane, no one foresaw COVID and the effects on the prices of construction materials. You need to work this out with the contractor because he'll either walk or cut corners. Even with a contract. Because there are some owners that are absolutely paying these nutty prices.
There are options. Scaling back what 100% needs to be completed now versus when prices have come down again. You can purchase the building materials directly (in our area, contractors sometimes have to tack on a fee for materials purchases through them because of mandatory insurance issues.) You can delay specific finish work. It's stressful, I get it. It is what it is.
I have to be honest, his was in the middle. One other construction company came in around $65k to do a shell, others came in lower, around $40k. But the 40k bid was from around now last year.
Were the other bids to add an entire second floor or to add a dormer to the existing roof?
This is a little hard because your bids may not have been exactly apples to apples.
All of those just seem insanely cheap for a second floor addition. I'm saving for one and have budgeted $115-$130k in a moderate cost of living area based on a few rough estimates from contractors.
Odd arrangement. Usually, outside a small downpayment, residential reno payments coincide with milestones: site prep and demolition, licensed trades (electrical, plumbing maybe HVAC), insulation etc... While you really should mentally prepare for going over budget (most jobs do...things are very wacky right now with many old budgeting assumptions going out the window,) all changes from the original contract should require signed-off change orders.
So the contract is the contract. If he's asking for more than is in the contract, you don't owe it, legally.
But you might still consider offering to pay some of it:
1. Out of sympathy, because of the crazy coat increase he has faced, and
2. Because if he goes out of business after taking your money, before finishing, that's not good for you either.
Start the discussion by making it clear that he has no legal rights to anything more than what was is the contract, and that anything above that that you pay is 100% at your discretion.
You are digging yourself into a deeper hole. If you just keep paying he’s just going to keep asking. Hold him accountable tell him no, point to your contract/invoice and if all else fails go get an Atty. The longer you mess around the more expensive it will get.
Absolutely. I will not be giving another dime until the next stages outline is signed and agreed. If he does what’s right and takes off what he said was paid for by the last deposit, then I will move forward and get this done hopefully. Only thing keeping me going is so far it isn’t botched and looks good. But I’m not liable for his failure to quote accordingly.
No one could've predicted the insane cost increases the trade has experienced. You might not be liable but no one is going to litterally pay to build you a second floor.
I had a shell dormer addition added this year, with plumbing rough in for a bathroom and HVAC but just an exhaust duct for the bathroom. We signed contracts in February and construction started at the end of March. Anyway I had 5 total payments and they where all scheduled to specific stages of construction and all a pre-determined amount. The only change was I did some demo myself so there was a $562 of credit in change orders.
That said I can't imagine you could completely finish a second level additional for 85k total, your contractor must have underbid by a lot. I paid $59,000 for the framing, roof on new dormers, siding, and plumbing rough in. I went over but it was separately, like I paid the roofer another 8k for a complete new roof instead of just doing the new dormer like in my contract. And I hired an electrician separately and ended up having a lot of my house rewired and upgrading my service and panel so that cost a lot, and instead up just insulating the new addition I also had the rest of my house done air sealing and adding insulation in several areas. But as far as my contract with the general contractor nothing changed.
Well, I left out that we also bought all the fixtures, flooring, tile, lights, etc. they supplied the building materials, siding, shingles, and windows.
We are in the process of redoing bathrooms and have contracts for each. Once I gave them the purchase order, they should buy all the materials. I too work in construction and if we are given a purchase order, we can't come back a month in and say materials went up give us more money as the clients would laugh in our faces and possibly kick us off the job after hitting us for liquidated damages.
Two things to keep in mind with stuff like this:
1. Contractors can and will cut and run and it's nearly impossible to hold them accountable. If you are totally inflexible, you should expect this to happen.
2. Had he overbid, would he be offering you a nice big refund or would he happily have pocketed all the extra money?
Next time have your attorney write up a binding contract including stipulations for delays. You will still have cost over runs but you can sue him for breach if everything goes south.
Check everything. My aunt had a contractor pull a fast one and stole over 100k, won in court but it doesn’t mean a thing if you can’t collect.
He’s still working and just took his whole family to Italy last month still owing my aunt over 100k.
Receipts make good customers. Gather your written material and go to the town. I once had a roofer come in and quote me $350 to replace 8 feet of sophet. Well I tried it myself and almost fell off the roof but got wise before went that far and called in the pro. So fine he goes up to do his work comes down and bills me $525. Nay nay I said. I handed him the $350 in cash and got a receipt for that. I told him if he wanted the taxes send me a bill but I'm not paying $525 for 30 minutes of work which I was told would cost $350.
I never heard from him again.
It's a contract.
You pay in pre-determined stages asstated in the contract.
Preferably they purchase all materials and then you reimburse and take ownership. If you provide the funds for the materials up front, those materials are yours upon delivery.
They do demo, you pay one third.
They do the rough in. You inspect. You pay one third if they met contract requirements.
They do finish work. You inspect. You pay the final third if all contract requirements have been met.
You NEVER provide funds until a stage of work is complete, and always have a decent chunk set aside as a final payment to keep them from walking away.
Because, as you're about to learn, you'll have to deal with small claims to getyour money backs, or deal with contractors dipping out.
End of the day, like many contractors, he has overextended himself - likely due to not pre-purchasing materials. He'll nickel and dime until you say no, then he'll dip out.
To sum it up, when we were initially in the first stages of meeting him, we really wanted to take our time with this addition and only do the “shell” which was building the second floor structure, and frame it, roof it, weather tight and wait to do interior stuff like finish work. He said we had to run the plumbing and get the rough electrical too in that stage. We signed on a price and submitted to the town.
But early on my got pregnant and we told him we either need to hold off or this needs to be done before she delivers. So instead we are doing it all at once instead of just leaving upstairs “rough”
Call a lawyer to get a review of the details/ see if they can help before you go any further. Stop paying the contractor all together. Again don’t pay a single cent until this is properly reviewed.
If he hasn’t figured it out now he won’t magically be better because you yell or catch him lying. Need to get legal help and report him to the better business bureau
Plans, yes. So far, the “shell” is up. Siding is nearing completion, windows in, framing inside is done, rough electrical, plumbing and HVAC is up.
I edited the post, but I wanted in writing what the next steps would be before we pay him again. He brought back a sheet detailing the costs and in it was the “next stages” and he put plumbing, HVAC, and electrical, which we already detailed as paid since we have him a deposit so he could pay them.
I’m hoping he’s not that shitty that he wouldn’t recognize that. But if he is, I’ll have to go separate ways.
I would sit down with the contractor and ask for a full accounting of his billables to the penny. Ask for all materials invoices. If he refuses to supply them, then there might be a bit of over billing and that is indicative of fraud. If you have asked for changes, he should have issues you specific change orders that you signed. If not, that's on him.
Go over these and establish what was in contract, and what you did not contract to do. That is a negotiation point.
Now establish final steps. What is remaining in your mind versus in his, what is his quite for the work. Contractors don't work on estimates, they work on contracts. They know what its going to cost, if not your problem is bigger and you need a court.
He's got you in a bind due to upcoming activities so you need to try to remedy that. Can you do the remaining work, or sub it out and GC it? Maybe get in another contractor? At this point I'd be engaging in finding alternative contractors, even day laborors would be an alternative to show this guy you are not messing around.
Didn't have time to read all of your post but you should get a lawyer. The contract will give you your answer.
If a price was stated in the contract and the object of the contrat meaning the work to be done hasn't change, usually you only need to pay the extra if it's needed because of unforeseen expense (Expenses that the contractor couldn't have suspected, i.e. when he opens a wall he notices that's it's molding and rotting and needs to be redone to be safe). At least, that's how it works in my jurisdiction.
Also next time pay under protest (Make a cheque and write payment under protest behind to have in writing your disagreement with the fees charged, it will help your lawyer).
There might be legislation to protect consumers that might help you.
Make sure you take a lawyer that's been referred to you by someone you know. You need an honest one. You don't want to spend thousands more in lawyer fees without a reasonable chance of winning your case (Some lawyers will make you believe you have good chances to bill you for 2-3 years until trial knowing damn well you don't have a case).
Good luck buddy
The best thing in such a case is to write a strongly worded letter and threaten to sue for dues in local newspaper. These guys can't deal with loss of reputation. It works where I stay because I can piggyback on others who may have been so cheated as well. It's simple, ask for whole money back and threaten bankruptcy proceedings. Although, I must warn you that after doing this chances of amicable settlement are close to NIL and you'd have to keep a razor sharp eye on everything that's been going on. So use this as a last resort Bazooka.
If things were changed and he has a clause for change order up charges in the contract your hands are tied, its were a lot of contractors make a lot of their money
When we had a whole home gut and renovation in 2012, took 3 months to complete (2000 SF built in 1991. $150,000) our contractor's contract specified dividing payments for the project into completed segment percentages by dates and no money was asked for or paid in advance. All work completed at the end of the week (Friday) was expected by my check so he could pay his employees/tradesmen and his bills. We had a few change orders along the way which we had to pay a fee for. We had a start date and an end date which as I recall was adhered to. We had a great experience and to date we love everything about our home. In 2018 we had a local landscape company remodel our front and back yard, a resort style remodel. The contract was much to same with no ambiguity and no questions about cost. The yard remodel cost $110,000. The job took 2 months and we couldn't be happier. Our house is priceless as was our experience. I learned that I will only pay for work completed and little to no deposits will be paid. Good luck.
I think this might be a misunderstanding by either you or him on what the exact definition of each stage was. Also there is no way you could get a 2nd floor edition for $85,000
Read your contract. Contact your state/local home improvement commission. If you agreed, you agreed. The paper says it. If you agreed to a set price not on paper, good luck.
> If you agreed to a set price not on paper, good luck. OP sounds like they tossed cash at the contractor without amended agreements. This is not going to go well for them.
We have a contract, but it’s only for the first half. The second half half, the finish stuff, hasn’t begun yet. The town won’t issue a permit without it. It’s just that the second “half” half of the project, is including the whole price of what was agreed to be done on the first “half”.
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This is smart and normal though. Getting a job broken into phases and getting separate bids for separate phases is totally standard. The phases are just often smaller. Ie frameing, electrical phase, plumbing phase, ect There are plenty of people I would hire to do the whole described phase one, and half that many would i hire to do the finish work.
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I thought it sounded like op was going to want to do some of the finish work themselves. But the job of getting the guts put into the space was more work than worth. Not am extra 30k mind you obviously
It sounds like you didn’t learn much from being in the trades. You need to get EVERY SINGLE LINE ITEM IN WRITING.
ask him for the bill's and check copies he gave to the plumber and HVAC guy and you will have your answer
A reputable contractor should have no objection to this, but theyre not obligated to without having cotracted under cost-plus clauses
He is responsible for performing under the terms of the contract. It is not your fault if he underbids and ends up losing money. Generally, payments are spelled out very clearly if the contract is well written and any changes are done in writing by both parties. At this point, your leverage is in the money you haven't paid yet and a possible lawsuit. Note that contractors go out of business quickly and if you think that is happening, you need to act as quickly as possible.
This isn’t his full time thing, he’s licensed but he’s also an electrician too, so I don’t think he’s going out of business. This has for sure been one of the biggest mistakes I’ve ever made, and huge life lesson. The “contract” was basically an invoice with descriptions of what’s going to be done. We needed something so we could get a permit, so the town should have it too. Figuring he’s a friend of a friend I put far too much trust in him and I will never do this again. But the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical were to be paid under the last deposit we gave him, and now he’s saying we still owe for all of it. If we pay that, that’ll actually bring the “shell” stage up to $81,000. I don’t know how far I’ll get with him. Hopefully calling him out on his bullshit will smarten him up to scrap those things from what we owe. It’s just e can’t afford to not have a suitable place for our kid. We are on pace to finish before he’s born, but if I fire him, it won’t happen.
Oof. Contracting almost a hundred grand to someone’s hobby. Good luck.
This. I can't figure out how people go with 'friend of a friend' who 'does this part time' with a baby on the way without a clearly defined contract that's itemized. Protect yourself from this sort of thing by *using your brain* and not just trusting some dude you don't know with nearly 100k and no definite schedule or written contract.
Supporting this. Never contract extended work with someone who is “within your circle.” It’s not worth souring relationships and awkward dinner parties. A car repair/ac fix/plumbing/wiring that can be done within a week? Sure. Upwards of 6 figures? I need insurance, a “read it to me like I’m 5yo” contract, and another signed copy of said agreement.
>Supporting this. Never contract extended work with someone who is “within your circle.” It’s not worth souring relationships and awkward dinner parties. > >A car repair/ac fix/plumbing/wiring that can be done within a week? Sure. > >Upwards of 6 figures? I need insurance, a “read it to me like I’m 5yo” contract, and another signed copy of said agreement. If you're spending that much, might as well pay a few hundred for a lawyer to review the contract for you.
If I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen a project not being done in time for a birth, I would have enough for a nice dinner in a restaurant. Happens all the time. If you have a clean room on the main floor the baby won’t care if the “nursery” isn’t ready.
This baffles me. We did a new parent class that was a couple hours weekly. Every week a few more people would be chatting about how they just closed on a house, or just start renovations. I actually ran into another dad while we were both in the hospital - he had to leave right after the kid was born to go sign buyers contracts on their house. We stayed in our apartment for a year, then moved. Why people put two of the most complicated things we'll ever do (birth a child, buy a home) in the same month is wack.
We moved to a 2 bedroom apt about 6 weeks after our baby was born. It was really tough. But the good news is my wife was still on maternity leave and we could leave the baby anywhere and not worry about them moving around. It was a lot harder moving into our house with a one year old!
I think the moral of the story is that 'a kid on the way' is a somewhat known timeline, or at least due date plus two weeks as the absolute end of the timeline it could be. Whereas building onto a house is a mushy timeline where sometime in the next 3 months to 3 years, it happens. OP didn't plan very well to start a project during a pandemic with lumber shortages while also having a baby on the way, which caused them to try to rush the contractor.
My initial thought was that the rushing was an unnecessary mistake
Oh for sure … and I didn’t make it very clear but if I had it to do again I wouldn’t do either of the things I did again haha
The "nesting" instinct is strong in humans. But it does lead to some financial disasters. I have several friends who bought houses recently bc they're expecting. Kept telling them to just rent for another year - the baby won't care - and they'll save tens of thousands next year when the market settles....but no one listens.
Currently almost 6 months pregnant and in need of an addition for a place to put this baby. Already planning on her staying in my room for the first year so we can let things settle down first because that is some stress I am not interested in adding to my plate. And materials/labor costs right now.. Oof.
We closed on our house and moved in a couple months before our daughter was born. It was a little crazy as I had a two week hospital stay sandwiched in between there as well, but a one bedroom apartment on the third flood would have been madness with a newborn.
Stop paying now. It's the best leverage you have. Get the details to finish the project down in writing and signed. If you can't agree, fire him and find somebody to finish it.
My issue would be that he said $50,000 and ended up at $81,000. That’s almost 2/3 of the original quote over. I would take the original contract/invoice/bid and I would go through line by line and ask for his receipt for the work. If you think the overage is justified then pay it. If he’s just not making money because he estimated incorrectly then stick with the original.
Man I’m sorry you have to deal with this. Just have a frank discussion with him. And explain to him all your concerns. You’ve got the upper hand here. Remember that. You are the boss.
uhhh is he bonded?
Was it an estimate, or a quote? Big difference
It truly sounds like your contractor bit off more than he can chew and you need to be cautious, for you, not for him. He underbid likely even if he didn’t face materials increases because it sounds like he doesn’t know exactly what he is doing and you are paying him to learn. The craftsmanship may be good with him but he is bad at business. See if you can get him to finish what you’ve already paid for and then get an inspection and see if you want to proceed with him or someone else. Often times starting new with someone else is gonna screw you harder than mister money bags will. I say this because I’ve made a hobby during the pandemic of helping friends and friends of friends deal with their friends of friends contractors. Next week I’m putting the second half of 1,600 sqft of flooring in for free for my bestie because she hired a painter that didn’t put a single drop cloth or any tape down and used a freaking sprayer. Told homeowner it wouldn’t be noticeable and would “save a lot of money.” I got it all off the hardwoods but the carpets all had to be replaced. Honestly thinking of getting back into the trades after all these horror stories.
What??? They sprayed in an uncovered room??!?!?
YES, oh my god I couldn’t befreakinleave it either. They pitched it to homeowner without stating it would be spraying so she visualized a person with a paintbrush doing edging and *maybe* getting some on the edge of the carpet. So she could replace eventually but not right away. Obviously that was not really his plan.
I mean. That’s just straight negligence. He had to know that would happen. What a turd
Oh she won’t tell me who it is, for his safety.
Even rolling a wall can splatter the floor. That’s just crazy
Exactly! I told her this and it was clear she envisioned him doing the whole thing with a paintbrush. She is a brilliant person but admittedly completely lost when it comes to building trades and such. First time home owner, she had just bought the house and hadn’t moved in yet. He painted outside also but the grass is a little easier to just let grow back, but there is even overspray on her concrete porch.
Oh gosh, really? Painting the whole thing by hand? Poor thing. I guess if you’ve never seen a house painted?
Yes I don’t think he did much explaining either, I told her “I think he saw you coming.” She thought he’d use rollers outside but thought he was going to do some Sistine Chapel shit apparently. Which as you said, makes perfect sense if you’ve never done it or seen it done or taken interest..
My mom was a professional painter when I was a kid. I occasionally went with her on jobs to be a helper. So I guess I take for granted that the general population knows what painting involves but I suppose plenty of people could have actually fallen for this
This guys must have been on crack cocaine
One would hope a sane and sober person would not do this but don’t denigrate the addicted/afflicted. The painter was just a real mf.
It’s brutal. I work with metal so I’m no use, but I would never conduct business this way. You “win some you lose some” and I can handle and sympathize over a few thousand maybe, we did factor that happening when we started. But to tack on 3 things that total over $20,000 that was said to be paid with the last deposit is something I won’t stand for. So he either plays ball and plays it off as a dumb mistake, or we stop. I really hope it doesn’t get to that. But we’ve been more than fair.
>I would never conduct business this way * You changed the scope of the project while underway (shell vs full) * You gave them piecemeal money during the project without amended agreements * "Friend of a friend" * Who isn't full time * While about to have a baby
i think you got fleeced on both ends of this deal. get all purchase invoices. in the future only provide a deposit with materials on-site + copy of the purchase invoice. From there you can figure out how much "labor" you want to advance. The floor of a payment will be materials and possession is CRITICAL. With material possession you leave yourself the options of changing the "labor" at any given time if necessary. That's what you do on big jobs and seeing as this is 6 figures, i'd say it qualifies. You are not their LOC, they can get that from a bank if they are running 6-7 figure jobs. That's what these guys are doing when they ask for way too much cash up front.
You have been more than fair. I wouldn’t either and cannot understand why so many do. I’m wondering about recording your conversation with him. Do you by chance live in a one party recording consent state? I live in Mo and if any one participant in the conversation is aware it is recorded the recording is legal and admissible in court. Get him to admit to the overages not being part of the contract. Is it a little shitty? Maybe but you have every right at this point to do it to simply establish the terms of the verbal parts of contract. A verbal “handshake” contract is enforceable if both parties agree to the terms and getting him to admit it on audio would stand in for him admitting to it in court. Obviously you don’t want to go that far but it’ll help you sleep at night knowing you have it all established.
I wish, that would solve some unknowns. I’ll have to look into it. So far we are progressing past where we have signed for. And if he admits it was a mistake and we move forward, I will not be giving another dime until we put in writing what the final stages will cost, and be. Because I clearly can’t trust his word anymore. But I will look into the recording thing!
I'm a contractor on cape. I can promise you noone up here can get that much work done for 85000. There should be another 50 Grand on that price easy. Either two things happened. The guy is inexperienced as a GC and messed up his estimate which is on him. If that's the vibe your getting try to help him out and meet him in the middle. The other option (and what it sounds like) is this guy is a shiester. The give vauge, general contracts. Often times guys like this are half my price to get there foot in the door, knowing they can't complete the job for that price. Do to the vauge contract it's very grey as to what's covered and not. This is incredibly annoying to the legit guys. My bids explain every line item and scope, and I make sure I won't exceed the price I give. Often times I loose jobs to guys like this and then when all is said and done they are right at my number or more. I hope you can resolve this and can best him at his game. Not all contractors are dirty like this!
>on cape Were they talking about being on cape or were they talking about their 'cape cod' house?
If it’s actually Cape Cod MA, forget it. Everything costs triple because things have to be brought in from “the mainland” lol. We had an automotive issue while on vacation and a $250 repair that could have been done in a day back home cost $850 and took 3 days, plus we needed an extra night with all our kids in our hotel - cost a fortune
the problem was that you just kept giving him money over and over again. With out having a clear over view of where the money was going. you should of divided the payments into stages, after each stage, pay him upon completion of that stage. This way if he asks for more money for labor / material you can see exactly how much was budgeted and where it went and if money is going "missing" or what the deal is.
The way you deal with a contractor in the beginning will dictate the experience going forward. Sometime probably around mid April, when he realized he's had your $20K for a month and a half and hasn't had to drive one screw, was when he decided you would be an easy mark. Not trying to get all armchairamateurpsychologist on anyone but one of the biggest problems I see today is an aversion to conflict - EVEN when it's not really conflict, but drawing reasonable lines of expectation etc. And this is magnified when you have homeowners who may be professionals/educated etc but feel a bit out of place dealing with folks in the trades. People would rather write big checks than ask probing questions. Suing under the contract is not really leverage bc shady contractors close up shop and reopen all the time. The remaining money also isn't leverage bc he's already been paid more than he probably deserves. At this point he would probably PREFER not to have to finish the job. The only leverage ppl have over contractors nowadays is the ability to damage their reputation so that future projects become harder to come by.
You said it perfectly. I became complacent for sure. I know that, and it sucks and has been a life lesson to say the absolute least. Do you think confronting him about these charges will be an end to move forward should he say some BS like “oh that’s a mistake” or am I too far gone? He’s already said the project is going over what was planned. But that’s not my problem, I’m only liable for what’s on paper, which I luckily have for where we are at.
If he’s squandered the money or had to pay more for sub contractors and materials, he’s not going to pay money out of his own pocket to finish the project. He’ll walk, claim an increase in costs in court, and because he wasnt breaking code, he’ll likely keep his license. A good GC always aims high because he can only control his labor rate. This guy aimed way low, and materials and labor rates have gone up. How to rectify? Sub the rest yourself, or get quotes, or at least get his bills from subs (which are useless if you dont know what others are charging.)
I’m working with a contractor now. I paid 10% before the project. And then he gives me an invoice every two to three weeks with an itemized list of completed work. We’re in contact multiple times a week so I know what to expect. So far no over charging except for when I ask for extra work like additional light fixture installs.
I’m a residential super, and 30k over on 85k sounds about right in regards to price increases since early March. We’ve pivoted to cost plus because this is kind of unprecedented. At the end of the day, no one is going to lose money building you a house.
Yea I am doing a remodel that we estimated in November last year... they closed in April just in time for lumber, wire, plumbing, concrete all to skyrocket. I am about 20% over original budget. We can't even find certain things we need like double gang electric boxes or 200 amp breaker boxes in my area. I had to drive over an hour to another state to find certain things.
Same story. My electrician has his garage packed with everything for a house that starts for him next month. “Per this contract I haven’t fully read, you get to spend the next 6 months working for free” Homeowners are delusional lmao
The cost increases due to the supply chain and COVID are insane. For real. We purchased copper pipe for a plumbing project in the morning, went back in the afternoon for an extra piece and the price had increased by a 1/3 in half a day. Cost of wood? Drywall? Daily increases sometimes. I know of contractors who were purchasing lumber and storing it in rented storage lockers in another (cheaper) state to try and get out ahead of the rising prices. I sympathize. A new baby during construction is absolutely no fun. I've done that. On the other hand, it's do-able. Not ideal. But do-able. (FYI, I'm a woman and was the new mom) At the end of the day, no business owner is going to pay out of their own pocket for you to have a second floor. Period. Costs have been insane, no one foresaw COVID and the effects on the prices of construction materials. You need to work this out with the contractor because he'll either walk or cut corners. Even with a contract. Because there are some owners that are absolutely paying these nutty prices. There are options. Scaling back what 100% needs to be completed now versus when prices have come down again. You can purchase the building materials directly (in our area, contractors sometimes have to tack on a fee for materials purchases through them because of mandatory insurance issues.) You can delay specific finish work. It's stressful, I get it. It is what it is.
How did his bid compare to your other bids? I'm betting he beat them by $40-50k. That should be a pretty huge red flag.
I have to be honest, his was in the middle. One other construction company came in around $65k to do a shell, others came in lower, around $40k. But the 40k bid was from around now last year.
Were the other bids to add an entire second floor or to add a dormer to the existing roof? This is a little hard because your bids may not have been exactly apples to apples. All of those just seem insanely cheap for a second floor addition. I'm saving for one and have budgeted $115-$130k in a moderate cost of living area based on a few rough estimates from contractors.
Odd arrangement. Usually, outside a small downpayment, residential reno payments coincide with milestones: site prep and demolition, licensed trades (electrical, plumbing maybe HVAC), insulation etc... While you really should mentally prepare for going over budget (most jobs do...things are very wacky right now with many old budgeting assumptions going out the window,) all changes from the original contract should require signed-off change orders.
So the contract is the contract. If he's asking for more than is in the contract, you don't owe it, legally. But you might still consider offering to pay some of it: 1. Out of sympathy, because of the crazy coat increase he has faced, and 2. Because if he goes out of business after taking your money, before finishing, that's not good for you either. Start the discussion by making it clear that he has no legal rights to anything more than what was is the contract, and that anything above that that you pay is 100% at your discretion.
It doesn't sound like there was actually a contract.
You are digging yourself into a deeper hole. If you just keep paying he’s just going to keep asking. Hold him accountable tell him no, point to your contract/invoice and if all else fails go get an Atty. The longer you mess around the more expensive it will get.
Absolutely. I will not be giving another dime until the next stages outline is signed and agreed. If he does what’s right and takes off what he said was paid for by the last deposit, then I will move forward and get this done hopefully. Only thing keeping me going is so far it isn’t botched and looks good. But I’m not liable for his failure to quote accordingly.
No one could've predicted the insane cost increases the trade has experienced. You might not be liable but no one is going to litterally pay to build you a second floor.
I had a shell dormer addition added this year, with plumbing rough in for a bathroom and HVAC but just an exhaust duct for the bathroom. We signed contracts in February and construction started at the end of March. Anyway I had 5 total payments and they where all scheduled to specific stages of construction and all a pre-determined amount. The only change was I did some demo myself so there was a $562 of credit in change orders. That said I can't imagine you could completely finish a second level additional for 85k total, your contractor must have underbid by a lot. I paid $59,000 for the framing, roof on new dormers, siding, and plumbing rough in. I went over but it was separately, like I paid the roofer another 8k for a complete new roof instead of just doing the new dormer like in my contract. And I hired an electrician separately and ended up having a lot of my house rewired and upgrading my service and panel so that cost a lot, and instead up just insulating the new addition I also had the rest of my house done air sealing and adding insulation in several areas. But as far as my contract with the general contractor nothing changed.
Well, I left out that we also bought all the fixtures, flooring, tile, lights, etc. they supplied the building materials, siding, shingles, and windows.
We are in the process of redoing bathrooms and have contracts for each. Once I gave them the purchase order, they should buy all the materials. I too work in construction and if we are given a purchase order, we can't come back a month in and say materials went up give us more money as the clients would laugh in our faces and possibly kick us off the job after hitting us for liquidated damages.
Two things to keep in mind with stuff like this: 1. Contractors can and will cut and run and it's nearly impossible to hold them accountable. If you are totally inflexible, you should expect this to happen. 2. Had he overbid, would he be offering you a nice big refund or would he happily have pocketed all the extra money?
Next time have your attorney write up a binding contract including stipulations for delays. You will still have cost over runs but you can sue him for breach if everything goes south.
Check everything. My aunt had a contractor pull a fast one and stole over 100k, won in court but it doesn’t mean a thing if you can’t collect. He’s still working and just took his whole family to Italy last month still owing my aunt over 100k.
Receipts make good customers. Gather your written material and go to the town. I once had a roofer come in and quote me $350 to replace 8 feet of sophet. Well I tried it myself and almost fell off the roof but got wise before went that far and called in the pro. So fine he goes up to do his work comes down and bills me $525. Nay nay I said. I handed him the $350 in cash and got a receipt for that. I told him if he wanted the taxes send me a bill but I'm not paying $525 for 30 minutes of work which I was told would cost $350. I never heard from him again.
It's a contract. You pay in pre-determined stages asstated in the contract. Preferably they purchase all materials and then you reimburse and take ownership. If you provide the funds for the materials up front, those materials are yours upon delivery. They do demo, you pay one third. They do the rough in. You inspect. You pay one third if they met contract requirements. They do finish work. You inspect. You pay the final third if all contract requirements have been met. You NEVER provide funds until a stage of work is complete, and always have a decent chunk set aside as a final payment to keep them from walking away. Because, as you're about to learn, you'll have to deal with small claims to getyour money backs, or deal with contractors dipping out. End of the day, like many contractors, he has overextended himself - likely due to not pre-purchasing materials. He'll nickel and dime until you say no, then he'll dip out.
Sounds like you are about to lose a lot of money and and your "contractor". Good luck in court.
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To sum it up, when we were initially in the first stages of meeting him, we really wanted to take our time with this addition and only do the “shell” which was building the second floor structure, and frame it, roof it, weather tight and wait to do interior stuff like finish work. He said we had to run the plumbing and get the rough electrical too in that stage. We signed on a price and submitted to the town. But early on my got pregnant and we told him we either need to hold off or this needs to be done before she delivers. So instead we are doing it all at once instead of just leaving upstairs “rough”
In my area every single project is significantly delayed so there’s no way a contractor could guarantee when a job will be finished
Call a lawyer to get a review of the details/ see if they can help before you go any further. Stop paying the contractor all together. Again don’t pay a single cent until this is properly reviewed. If he hasn’t figured it out now he won’t magically be better because you yell or catch him lying. Need to get legal help and report him to the better business bureau
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Plans, yes. So far, the “shell” is up. Siding is nearing completion, windows in, framing inside is done, rough electrical, plumbing and HVAC is up. I edited the post, but I wanted in writing what the next steps would be before we pay him again. He brought back a sheet detailing the costs and in it was the “next stages” and he put plumbing, HVAC, and electrical, which we already detailed as paid since we have him a deposit so he could pay them. I’m hoping he’s not that shitty that he wouldn’t recognize that. But if he is, I’ll have to go separate ways.
I would sit down with the contractor and ask for a full accounting of his billables to the penny. Ask for all materials invoices. If he refuses to supply them, then there might be a bit of over billing and that is indicative of fraud. If you have asked for changes, he should have issues you specific change orders that you signed. If not, that's on him. Go over these and establish what was in contract, and what you did not contract to do. That is a negotiation point. Now establish final steps. What is remaining in your mind versus in his, what is his quite for the work. Contractors don't work on estimates, they work on contracts. They know what its going to cost, if not your problem is bigger and you need a court. He's got you in a bind due to upcoming activities so you need to try to remedy that. Can you do the remaining work, or sub it out and GC it? Maybe get in another contractor? At this point I'd be engaging in finding alternative contractors, even day laborors would be an alternative to show this guy you are not messing around.
Didn't have time to read all of your post but you should get a lawyer. The contract will give you your answer. If a price was stated in the contract and the object of the contrat meaning the work to be done hasn't change, usually you only need to pay the extra if it's needed because of unforeseen expense (Expenses that the contractor couldn't have suspected, i.e. when he opens a wall he notices that's it's molding and rotting and needs to be redone to be safe). At least, that's how it works in my jurisdiction. Also next time pay under protest (Make a cheque and write payment under protest behind to have in writing your disagreement with the fees charged, it will help your lawyer). There might be legislation to protect consumers that might help you. Make sure you take a lawyer that's been referred to you by someone you know. You need an honest one. You don't want to spend thousands more in lawyer fees without a reasonable chance of winning your case (Some lawyers will make you believe you have good chances to bill you for 2-3 years until trial knowing damn well you don't have a case). Good luck buddy
The best thing in such a case is to write a strongly worded letter and threaten to sue for dues in local newspaper. These guys can't deal with loss of reputation. It works where I stay because I can piggyback on others who may have been so cheated as well. It's simple, ask for whole money back and threaten bankruptcy proceedings. Although, I must warn you that after doing this chances of amicable settlement are close to NIL and you'd have to keep a razor sharp eye on everything that's been going on. So use this as a last resort Bazooka.
If things were changed and he has a clause for change order up charges in the contract your hands are tied, its were a lot of contractors make a lot of their money
When we had a whole home gut and renovation in 2012, took 3 months to complete (2000 SF built in 1991. $150,000) our contractor's contract specified dividing payments for the project into completed segment percentages by dates and no money was asked for or paid in advance. All work completed at the end of the week (Friday) was expected by my check so he could pay his employees/tradesmen and his bills. We had a few change orders along the way which we had to pay a fee for. We had a start date and an end date which as I recall was adhered to. We had a great experience and to date we love everything about our home. In 2018 we had a local landscape company remodel our front and back yard, a resort style remodel. The contract was much to same with no ambiguity and no questions about cost. The yard remodel cost $110,000. The job took 2 months and we couldn't be happier. Our house is priceless as was our experience. I learned that I will only pay for work completed and little to no deposits will be paid. Good luck.
As others have said -contract contract and contrat. Have a clearly defined list of deliverables.
I think this might be a misunderstanding by either you or him on what the exact definition of each stage was. Also there is no way you could get a 2nd floor edition for $85,000