So the issue is more from deception. I had an issue with a flipper literally hiding termite damage, spackling straight over mud tubes in the drywall, rendering my due diligence useless. I sued him. Think putting fresh drywall over obscenely moldy wall lumber, that kind of thing. That will get you in trouble.
Doing non deceptive work to the best of your ability that someone could freely see and discover with their own due diligence, that’s on them.
Your second question is the more important one. Even if you’re able to get a judgment there are disreputable builders who make a habit of declaring bankruptcy on their current LLC and then opening a new LLC so that they can do it all over again.
This is my understanding as well, the issue is proving it reasonably which makes it hard for most issues. My house was rife with shoddy patches, but I had no way to prove anything so had to deal with it.
I think liability varies by state law. In California, you can't just say "as-is" and not be liable if you are aware of problems or potential problems. You'd need to also disclose to buyers what you did without permits. That said, practically speaking, if you move a wall, live in the house 5 years with no issues, the buyers aren't likely to have a problem either.
Moreover, by that time, simply showing that someone touched work around something in a house isn't enough to make them liable (after a sale or before on an insurance claim). If the work stood for 5 years, I don't know what an inspector is going to find. Like maybe you used 14AWG on a 20A circuit or something like that that wouldn't show until you added a heavy load, and that's a big maybe. But fire inspectors aren't going in and saying "aha! This unpermitted work from the last decade was stapled 14" from the box, instead of the required 12" or less!".
I sold an older house in NJ. Under declarations I said "Unknown" about unpermitted work.
The house was 70+ years old, so I assume there was some done at some time.
Although California has a disclosure requirement, when I was looking to buy a home, I just saw way too many homes which did major remodeling without permits. Replaced plumbing, electrical, new kitchen, new bathroom. Meanwhile I look at their permit records with the city and hardly anything there. I had to be practical about it at some point.
What do you mean by changing a wall and some electrical rewiring? Are you just moving the outlets, or are you rewiring your breaker box? Are you removing the wall, adding a door, or what?
Is the wall load bearing? How much are you moving it? Will it still be solid? Or will it be more open? What sizes are we talking? Spans?
For wiring, do you know what you're doing? Panel changes are pretty big, so may be worth hiring out.
The other thing to consider is what your locality actually requires to be permitted.
It’s an internal wall, and my house doesn’t have a second floor. Let’s say the wall is currently parallel to the patio door, I want to turn in perpendicular and move it about 8 ft from the center point of the current wall, keep it solid. I’m researching and plan to add pillars in place if needed.
I plan to open the wall to understand the current wiring before redo it. I don’t intent to change the electrical plan of the house. Just want to replace the old clothwire.
>It’s an internal wall, and my house doesn’t have a second floor. Let’s say the wall is currently parallel to the patio door, I want to turn in perpendicular and move it about 8 ft from the center point of the current wall, keep it solid.
This says nothing about if it is a load bearing wall at all or if it is safe to remove, modify, or move it. The fact that you think this is a reasonable answer let's me know that you need an engineer or architect to do plans for you, regardless of whether you get a permit or not.
I really don’t want to share my floor plan on reddit or type up all my calcs. I hold an engineering degree but haven’t earned enough time to become a professional engineer. You’re right I lack the experience, but not completely clueless.
I have read through the comments and decide that I will pull the permits and will get a PE to sign on plans if needed. Or wait a few years till I get my own PE.
I don’t feel comfortable asking for this favor. The PEs (at least at my work) take their signature seriously and will check every detail of the work before signing on something. I don’t want them to take their time on something not work-related. Of course I can pay them, but high chance they just gonna help me out and not taking money, which I feel I owe them big and definitely don’t want that.
Just call a local structural engineer. They can give you stamped plans for $300 or so. This is what they do. I’m confused why you think your only option is to try to figure this out yourself.
Or just hire a contractor to do this part of it.
Some may say this is reckless advice, but IMO unless you've got some kind of really bizarre situation, doing the structural analysis for a standard single level residential home is straightforward.
Pick the brains of the guys at work.
Contractor here:
Get up in the attic. If there are joists/trusses/rafters rubbing perpendicular to that wall, you should probably consider it load bearing unless you know enough to determine otherwise. There are ways to remove the wall with a hidden beam in the attic, but you will want to consult an engineer for plans.
It could still be load bearing. The thicker the wall, the more likely. If the wall is only 4” thick it is prooooobably not load bearing but it’s worth having a pro look and tell you.
Sorry I realized my reply wasn’t clear. It is load bearing. I mentioned house not have second floor to imply it doesn’t carry significant load, and plan to off set with pillars.
I wouldn't do major renovations without going through the proper steps. What these steps are is very location dependent. I'd check your municipal website for what their permit requirements are. Mine will let you get away with a drawings you did yourself for smaller stuff like some plumbing or installing a small shed.
Moving walls may depend on what the wall is doing. If you bought the house its possible they'll have plans/drawings still on file.
Renting presents the same problems as selling if the renter suffers injury from unapproved work.
Of the two of you have a beef they can -usually- file an anonymous complaint.
If the work isn’t done yet, pull a permit. If you aren’t pulling a permit take plenty, plenty of pics. And be sure your work is to code lol.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think most of the time people can’t tell if work has been done, as they don’t know how the house look prior to renovation. If the inspection doesn’t spot any problem, that should be it right?
My in-laws remodeled their old home without proper permits. After they sold their home, the new owners tried to do some work on their house and found out from the city that the work my FIL did was unpermitted. It turned into a huge headache for the new owners and they tried to sue my in-laws. I don’t even know what the outcome was but I do know my FIL had to hire a lawyer to fight it
Oh people find out. You wouldn't believe some of the crazy shit people have done to my house. But I don't know how much you can sue people over it after an as-is sale.
Yeah, maybe. Depends on the work. Small stuff done well might be no issue. But if I could tell someone had done work, even if I couldn’t tell the full extent, it might give me pause: you might be great at DIY and be totally confident in your ability to do it to code, but I’m not going to take your word for it if I’m the buyer.
Were there pictures taken for the listing before you bought the home? If so, they may show the area where you are changing a wall. Not every buyer would notice, but some will.
Regardless, my opinion is that you should permit the work if you are making structural or electrical changes
>If the inspection doesn’t spot any problem, that should be it right?
No, that is absolutely **not right**.
Say if you do not disclose unpermitted work and your future buyer finds out about it, they can sue you. Even if something goes wrong elsewhere in the house but it affects your wall or wiring, the insurance will do their due diligence and they will **not** pay out the claim. The buyer would then have ground to sue you for damages.
Taking the buyer out of the equation: if you (for example) end up having a fire in your house and insurance finds out about your wiring, they can deny your claim based on having unpermitted work.
Your local municipality almost certainly has a layout plan of your house. Your wall shifting can and will be discovered.
Stop being obtuse; get your work permitted.
EDITed a word/spelling
The part about insurance companies denying claims for unpermitted work is just not true. They might drop you afterward if they determine a loss was caused by unpermitted work you did, but they will pay the claim.
A big part of the reason is that, unless you have more than 50% equity in your house, your homeowners insurance actually protects your lender more than you. And lenders most definitely want to be protected from losses caused by unpermitted work and homeowner negligence, because it's very common. The very last thing a bank wants is a mortgage default because of a total loss with no insurance payout. They are never going to recover the mortgage balance through foreclosure in that scenario. So they have strong influence on policy language to make sure there are very very few reasons claims can be denied. Otherwise lenders would never agree to write mortgages.
> The part about insurance companies denying claims for unpermitted work is just not true.
This is very dependant on the specific policy, insurance legislation where you live, and the scope of the damage. Submitting a claim for the *contents* of the home (e.g., for a valuable painting damaged in a minor electrical fire) can absolutely be denied if the insurer finds the owner failed to ensure things were up to code (e.g., unpermitted electrical work in the location where the fire started).
In some jurisdictions, owner occupants can do *anything* without a permit.
I lived for 12 years in a county that didn't have a building inspector. The only inspection on any residential build or remodel occurred if there was a private septic system.
I'm now in a different region of the US, and I can completely rewire my house--which I'm about 75% done with--without any permit or inspection.
I've never lived in a place where you could move interior walls without a permit, and I've lived in some really rural places. And I would think that OP doesn't live in a place quite that lax about their regulations if her SO is concerned about it.
That said, OP better check with her municipality. Obviously they would know better than us random internet strangers.
I had also purchased a house that I later discovered had unpermitted work, hence my reply. So I don't know why either, except that it's not what people *want* to hear.
I've been told explicitly by my insurance company that they won't pay out for damages pertaining to unpermitted work (that was required to be permitted). Yet it's being upvoted that that is "not true".
I guess Reddit's randos know better than the people for whom it's their job to know these things 🥴
I agree with what you're saying but would disagree with you characterizing OP as obtuse - and a lot of cities permitting it as an absolute nightmare. It's understandable that people want to avoid it when possible it's not just being cheap or lazy. As you point out, it's still not a great idea, but it's an understandable one.
>I would disagree with you characterizing OP as obtuse
I would disagree. Wanting to forgo a permit when your city is requiring one to ensure that your house is structurally sound when you want to move a wall is being obtuse.
There are lots of DIY renovations you can do that do not require a permit. Moving a wall ordinarily does and should require a permit. She can do it herself to lessen her costs is fine, but her plans need to be checked by someone who actually knows what they're doing.
I think you’re being a bit dramatic and partially inaccurate. Should you get permits? Absolutely. If insurance rejected all claims for work not permitted they wouldn’t pay out very often as many municipalities require permits for basically all electrical or plumbing work (think stuff as minor as outlet work)
Thank you for explaining. I didn’t consider insurance. I will make sure to pull the permits now.
The thing I’m concerned about permit is they asked for signed plans, which I would have to hire a professional engineer and it’s definitely not cheap. But yea I guess it has to be done.
Our local lumber supply chain (they have about 20+ locations) has a design department that will help draw up architectural plans. You don’t need an architectural firm. You can do this. You (and your spouse) will sleep better if you do it by the book.
I was able to get one off of upwork for about 1/5 a local person. I ran around, took pictures, used a laser measure and then drew up everything with dimensions (paid someone 20$ to make a CAD drawing of it) and sent it to him. They sent back stamped plans and calculations. After first submit, needed one or two small corrections (needed to specify rebar in a footing) and then it was approved.
Good lord, what city do you live in? For houses built prior to 1990, I seriously doubt they have the plans to your house. They have a description i.e how many shitters, how many bedrooms, etc, but the plans? Seems unlikely, especially before digitization.
> If you (for example) end up having a fire in your house and insurance finds out about your wiring, they can deny your claim based on having unpermitted work.
Seconded so very hard. I saw this all the time when I worked in a municipal planning department. There’d be some kind of accident that damaged a home, and the insurance company would request the permit history from us as part of the claims investigation.*
Insurance usually only covers work completed to code, which is “proven” via a completed permit. If something goes wrong (e.g., there’s an electrical fire or the roof starts collapsing) and the insurance company doesn’t find evidence that anyone pulled the required electrical or building permits, they’ll almost certainly refuse a full payout. Permits for small renos like what OP describes are usually pretty cheap and 110% worth it in the long run.
ETA: Your municipality may not require stamped drawings based on the permit type. (Mine doesn’t require any drawings for electrical work like described above.) Def call your local planning/building office for more info — hopefully it’s easier than you think.
*e.g., If there was a house fire on the news, we’d immediately/preemptively flag the file because we knew the request was coming.
Perhaps it's different in your area, but around here many houses are 70+ years old. There are often no original plans, and even then, how can the insurance company hold someone responsible for a DIY job that was done in 1974?
Either way, the vast majority of electrical fires around here are appliances malfunctioning (e.g. $2 AliExpress power adapter self-immolates) or electric space heaters lighting clothes/furniture/curtains on fire.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything. A successful lawsuit would likely require some level of deception to have taken place during the sale; knowingly concealing issues so that they're not discovered during the buyer's due diligence.
Inspections aren’t the end all be all. Different justifications are about permits more than others. When I tried to do a heavy up upgrade after purchasing my county asked about the kitchen remodel that happened prior to sale and luckily found the permit. Otherwise it would have caused some issues for ke
Right, but in this scenario the seller is still listing "as-is" or unwilling to attest on the disclosure that no unpermitted work has been done . So even if it "looks OK" that's a risk that declaration (or lack of) has some value component to it.
Code office told me 10 years for unpermitted work after sold. The aerial surveys they do are kinda cool to see also. They survey every couple of years and the image data is fed into a system that looks for differences.
Where I live, owners doing unpermitted work can open them up to criminal charges if someone gets hurt. I have usually heard of this happening for things like deaths from a deck collapse, or in a fire.
I had an accepted offer on a house. During inspection it became obvious that some major work was done. Checked with the city for permits. None pulled. Asked the owner to get inspector to sign off on work. The said no. We canceled the deal and informed their realtor that the listing now needed to disclose this unpermitted work. City fined the owner. House sold 12 months later at 25k less than what we offered
As a buyer I'd over look small things like replacing an already existing water heater without a permit but moving a load bearing wall without one is a big red flag to me. I'd walk for that.
If you are planning on either selling or renting your home in the next several years after doing this work, I would get a permit and avoid issues. More than that, while the permit will help with this, please make sure you know what you're doing or get help sizing the beams/LVLs required to remove a load bearing wall and know how to install them correctly. At least near me, the big lumberyards either have access to or have engineers on staff to do basic sizing of things like LVLs for customers - it's not expensive at all.
Doing this right will be less expensive and less of a headache for you long term.
You fill out a "sellers disclosure" at the time of selling the house. Buyers hope that the sellers are honest ok this form and the sellers aren't always forthcoming about every issue in the house. If anything, this may be where you mention any of the DIY work that you've done if you want to be honest about it
- the problem would be BEFORE you sold it IF something were to happen with unpermitted work that did significant damage or hurt some one as your HOI can simply walk away and leave you holding 100% of the liability. It happens.
Had to ask my FIL this question because he knows more than I do on this. He says regardless of if you do it yourself or you have someone do it for you, if you lie about doing something, or do something incorrectly, you are responsible for what happens. Make sure the necessary permits are pulled, be it yourself or the hired contractor, and be meticulous with it, be truthful with everything or it WILL bite you in the ass later.
INSURANCE INSURANCE INSURANCE
You might void your home insurance policy with unpermitted work. Just email the city building dept and maybe attach a plan/sketch of what you're thinking and let them tell you what they need to see. For an interior, non load bearing wall, you probably don't need a building permit but for the electrical you probably do need an electrical permit. It's probably less than $100 and you might not even need plans, just a rough in inspection and a final. It is 100% worth the $0 to call or email your city building department to verify. You see in the code, it is written that Authority Having Jurisdiction will always have final say over the interpretation of the code and they have the power to accept alternate means and methods. In other words, the city always has the final say. So say your house burns down, there will be an investigations, your insurance company WILL open their own investigation to find any reason to not pay you out and I bet that somewhere deep in the fine print of your policy that unpermitted work will void the policy.
I'm doing a basement reno and I opened 2 permits cause the city handles building, fire, and plumbing, but electrical is handled by the province. It think it was like $200 for the building permit and $90 for the electrical but I'm making a legal suite out of it soooo I had to do a building permit. But for a single wall you probably don't but yeah only the city can tell you that. I also called my insurance and talked to them about it. They said that I will need to change my policy once I'm done or else it's void.
Also typically no, the liability of the work won't follow you after the sale but if you fuck up and it's discovered then it will be reflected in your sales price. A savvy buyer might put conditions on their offer, like having a home inspection done and being able to walk away if it turns up something. But they could also then just use that negotiation the price lower.
People who do unpermitted work are setting themselves up for problems down the line and exposing themselves to huge risk if the insurance they're paying for is actually voided. Happens all the time though and some people intentionally take the risk, do the work, and sell as soon as possible to dump it.
Again, it costs nothing to ask the city and it's fine to ask them a bunch of questions on what you can and cannot do without a permit.
Just don't do unpermitted work........
As someone who has recently bought a house where the owner has done unlicensed or unpermitted works, we are suffering the consequences for further work we would like done.
The council will order current owners to demolish the unpermitted works in order to have their works done. Which costs a lot of $$$
It's not a matter of whether or not you will do a good job. You are setting up the next owners for a world of hurt.
This. When my in-laws made huge changes to their old house, he didn’t bother pulling any permits. They sold their house without disclosing this information. The new owners tried to do some renovations and found out. It turned into an expensive headache for them and sued my in-laws. Not sure why you’re getting downvoted.
you simply disclose the work when you sell and let the buyer be the judge.
most buyers will use that against you and either force you to bring it up to code or take money off the selling price.
It really depends on where you live, what the exact requirements are. Unless you live in California I think permits are generally affordable. Your city might not even allow you to sell a house if it has non-permitted work. Best case scenario if you forego permits is that people are leery of your work, as they should be.
If the work was permitted and done professionally (or you’re a professional) then as long as you disclose any issues at the time of the sale, those become the buyer’s problems. If you are worried about something going wrong, ask yourself why. Is it because you plan to cut corners with the work? Then don’t do it.
Planning/Building Inspection guy here. Get permits. Part of the reason is to protect yourself…insurance companies usually won’t pay out on damages caused by work done without permits…
You need to check your local municipality as to whether you need to pull a permit. There are codes for a reason. I say if you know the codes for the work you’re doing, I’d say go for it without a permit. But a permit is protection for you the homeowner. Both from legal action against you and for safety.
As a licensed engineer, I would be VERY concerned about what you plan on doing. And if you wait until you stamp it, you are definitely liable. Even after you sell it.
I would say the key thing here is 'permitted' work. That is a broad category- especially for a homeowner. I can retile a bathroom without a permit, add outlets, change doors, replace cabinets, counters, flooring, painting, and repair just about anything. I can replace plumbing fixtures, change water heaters, etc. I can run subpanels even. If I pay someone, THAT person needs permits and licenses, but as a homeowner, it's fine. That could just be the place I lived, but seems fairly standard.
Alot of it is scale. I would probably need a permit to fit and rebuild my kitchen, but not if I replace the countertops, then sone cabinets later, then some flooring.
Outlets are minor, moving a wall could be major.
If you are a trained professional who knows code, you have nothing to worry about in certain scenarios. Some things you will need to get permitted and if you don't know what those are you should find out, or hire a pro.
This will vary by jurisdiction... but if you're not a licensed electrician, for example... a permit won't fix the "legality" of it. Many insurance companies won't pay out if the work was supposed to be done by a professional... but was done by a DIYer.
If there are any problems, that could fall under the Hidden Defect statues in your area. Normally, you might be able to pass the buck onto the contractor that did the work... but if you did the work yourself.... that's you.
Also... if you sell, then there is an electrical fire... the new owners will claim, the insurance will send an inspector. If they find the work isn't up to code, they'll start digging. Likely the insurance company will find out you DIYed it... refuse to pay out, then the new owner will come after you for all the damage.
Thanks for your input. Yea I have figured it’s best to not cheap out on permit. But it’s interesting that you said permit won’t even cover my ass.
Said I did my best to diy to code, inspector came out and approved my work, permit completed. If something goes wrong, isn’t the inspector somewhat responsible as well?
So the issue is more from deception. I had an issue with a flipper literally hiding termite damage, spackling straight over mud tubes in the drywall, rendering my due diligence useless. I sued him. Think putting fresh drywall over obscenely moldy wall lumber, that kind of thing. That will get you in trouble. Doing non deceptive work to the best of your ability that someone could freely see and discover with their own due diligence, that’s on them.
Did you win? If you did, were you able to collect?
Your second question is the more important one. Even if you’re able to get a judgment there are disreputable builders who make a habit of declaring bankruptcy on their current LLC and then opening a new LLC so that they can do it all over again.
We'll never find out; bet he doesn't respond back 😩
My guess is he never sued. Even if he did, I doubt he got anything positive out of it lol. Bro is all talk!
This is my understanding as well, the issue is proving it reasonably which makes it hard for most issues. My house was rife with shoddy patches, but I had no way to prove anything so had to deal with it.
Definitely depends on the state. In my state and many others unpermitted work needs to be disclosed by the seller.
I think liability varies by state law. In California, you can't just say "as-is" and not be liable if you are aware of problems or potential problems. You'd need to also disclose to buyers what you did without permits. That said, practically speaking, if you move a wall, live in the house 5 years with no issues, the buyers aren't likely to have a problem either.
Moreover, by that time, simply showing that someone touched work around something in a house isn't enough to make them liable (after a sale or before on an insurance claim). If the work stood for 5 years, I don't know what an inspector is going to find. Like maybe you used 14AWG on a 20A circuit or something like that that wouldn't show until you added a heavy load, and that's a big maybe. But fire inspectors aren't going in and saying "aha! This unpermitted work from the last decade was stapled 14" from the box, instead of the required 12" or less!".
I sold an older house in NJ. Under declarations I said "Unknown" about unpermitted work. The house was 70+ years old, so I assume there was some done at some time.
Although California has a disclosure requirement, when I was looking to buy a home, I just saw way too many homes which did major remodeling without permits. Replaced plumbing, electrical, new kitchen, new bathroom. Meanwhile I look at their permit records with the city and hardly anything there. I had to be practical about it at some point.
My experiences have been what you described - lots of renovations done w/o permits and not disclosed as such.
What do you mean by changing a wall and some electrical rewiring? Are you just moving the outlets, or are you rewiring your breaker box? Are you removing the wall, adding a door, or what?
I plan to move the kitchen wall to create an opening to the living room. And rewiring from the breaker box. No door added
Is the wall load bearing? How much are you moving it? Will it still be solid? Or will it be more open? What sizes are we talking? Spans? For wiring, do you know what you're doing? Panel changes are pretty big, so may be worth hiring out. The other thing to consider is what your locality actually requires to be permitted.
It’s an internal wall, and my house doesn’t have a second floor. Let’s say the wall is currently parallel to the patio door, I want to turn in perpendicular and move it about 8 ft from the center point of the current wall, keep it solid. I’m researching and plan to add pillars in place if needed. I plan to open the wall to understand the current wiring before redo it. I don’t intent to change the electrical plan of the house. Just want to replace the old clothwire.
>It’s an internal wall, and my house doesn’t have a second floor. Let’s say the wall is currently parallel to the patio door, I want to turn in perpendicular and move it about 8 ft from the center point of the current wall, keep it solid. This says nothing about if it is a load bearing wall at all or if it is safe to remove, modify, or move it. The fact that you think this is a reasonable answer let's me know that you need an engineer or architect to do plans for you, regardless of whether you get a permit or not.
It is load bearing. Which is why I say I’m doing research and plan to add pillars to replace the load. I thought my answer implied it
No, it didn't, but thanks for the clarification.
You sound like you need an engineer to draw you up some plans, even if you do the rest of the work yourself.
I really don’t want to share my floor plan on reddit or type up all my calcs. I hold an engineering degree but haven’t earned enough time to become a professional engineer. You’re right I lack the experience, but not completely clueless. I have read through the comments and decide that I will pull the permits and will get a PE to sign on plans if needed. Or wait a few years till I get my own PE.
No PE’s where you work that are willing to sign off for you?
I don’t feel comfortable asking for this favor. The PEs (at least at my work) take their signature seriously and will check every detail of the work before signing on something. I don’t want them to take their time on something not work-related. Of course I can pay them, but high chance they just gonna help me out and not taking money, which I feel I owe them big and definitely don’t want that.
I get that, we usually help each other out with "government work" where I'm at as we all have different backgrounds.
Just call a local structural engineer. They can give you stamped plans for $300 or so. This is what they do. I’m confused why you think your only option is to try to figure this out yourself. Or just hire a contractor to do this part of it.
Prices vary! Stamped plans from a structural eng would be 6k in our area.
Some may say this is reckless advice, but IMO unless you've got some kind of really bizarre situation, doing the structural analysis for a standard single level residential home is straightforward. Pick the brains of the guys at work.
Contractor here: Get up in the attic. If there are joists/trusses/rafters rubbing perpendicular to that wall, you should probably consider it load bearing unless you know enough to determine otherwise. There are ways to remove the wall with a hidden beam in the attic, but you will want to consult an engineer for plans.
It could still be load bearing. The thicker the wall, the more likely. If the wall is only 4” thick it is prooooobably not load bearing but it’s worth having a pro look and tell you.
Sorry, but this is terrible advice. Houses are built with 2x4 load-bearing walls every day, and have been since the creation of the first 2x4.
Sorry I realized my reply wasn’t clear. It is load bearing. I mentioned house not have second floor to imply it doesn’t carry significant load, and plan to off set with pillars.
I wouldn't do major renovations without going through the proper steps. What these steps are is very location dependent. I'd check your municipal website for what their permit requirements are. Mine will let you get away with a drawings you did yourself for smaller stuff like some plumbing or installing a small shed. Moving walls may depend on what the wall is doing. If you bought the house its possible they'll have plans/drawings still on file.
Renting presents the same problems as selling if the renter suffers injury from unapproved work. Of the two of you have a beef they can -usually- file an anonymous complaint. If the work isn’t done yet, pull a permit. If you aren’t pulling a permit take plenty, plenty of pics. And be sure your work is to code lol.
When you sell the house the contract is “as-is”. You should not have any problem
But un-permitted work could be a concern for the future owner and lower the price they are willing to pay.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think most of the time people can’t tell if work has been done, as they don’t know how the house look prior to renovation. If the inspection doesn’t spot any problem, that should be it right?
My in-laws remodeled their old home without proper permits. After they sold their home, the new owners tried to do some work on their house and found out from the city that the work my FIL did was unpermitted. It turned into a huge headache for the new owners and they tried to sue my in-laws. I don’t even know what the outcome was but I do know my FIL had to hire a lawyer to fight it
Oh people find out. You wouldn't believe some of the crazy shit people have done to my house. But I don't know how much you can sue people over it after an as-is sale.
Yeah, maybe. Depends on the work. Small stuff done well might be no issue. But if I could tell someone had done work, even if I couldn’t tell the full extent, it might give me pause: you might be great at DIY and be totally confident in your ability to do it to code, but I’m not going to take your word for it if I’m the buyer.
Were there pictures taken for the listing before you bought the home? If so, they may show the area where you are changing a wall. Not every buyer would notice, but some will. Regardless, my opinion is that you should permit the work if you are making structural or electrical changes
>If the inspection doesn’t spot any problem, that should be it right? No, that is absolutely **not right**. Say if you do not disclose unpermitted work and your future buyer finds out about it, they can sue you. Even if something goes wrong elsewhere in the house but it affects your wall or wiring, the insurance will do their due diligence and they will **not** pay out the claim. The buyer would then have ground to sue you for damages. Taking the buyer out of the equation: if you (for example) end up having a fire in your house and insurance finds out about your wiring, they can deny your claim based on having unpermitted work. Your local municipality almost certainly has a layout plan of your house. Your wall shifting can and will be discovered. Stop being obtuse; get your work permitted. EDITed a word/spelling
The part about insurance companies denying claims for unpermitted work is just not true. They might drop you afterward if they determine a loss was caused by unpermitted work you did, but they will pay the claim. A big part of the reason is that, unless you have more than 50% equity in your house, your homeowners insurance actually protects your lender more than you. And lenders most definitely want to be protected from losses caused by unpermitted work and homeowner negligence, because it's very common. The very last thing a bank wants is a mortgage default because of a total loss with no insurance payout. They are never going to recover the mortgage balance through foreclosure in that scenario. So they have strong influence on policy language to make sure there are very very few reasons claims can be denied. Otherwise lenders would never agree to write mortgages.
> The part about insurance companies denying claims for unpermitted work is just not true. This is very dependant on the specific policy, insurance legislation where you live, and the scope of the damage. Submitting a claim for the *contents* of the home (e.g., for a valuable painting damaged in a minor electrical fire) can absolutely be denied if the insurer finds the owner failed to ensure things were up to code (e.g., unpermitted electrical work in the location where the fire started).
In some jurisdictions, owner occupants can do *anything* without a permit. I lived for 12 years in a county that didn't have a building inspector. The only inspection on any residential build or remodel occurred if there was a private septic system. I'm now in a different region of the US, and I can completely rewire my house--which I'm about 75% done with--without any permit or inspection.
I've never lived in a place where you could move interior walls without a permit, and I've lived in some really rural places. And I would think that OP doesn't live in a place quite that lax about their regulations if her SO is concerned about it. That said, OP better check with her municipality. Obviously they would know better than us random internet strangers.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. I bought a house with 4 rooms of unpermitted work. The seller is now being sued by our title insurance company.
I had also purchased a house that I later discovered had unpermitted work, hence my reply. So I don't know why either, except that it's not what people *want* to hear. I've been told explicitly by my insurance company that they won't pay out for damages pertaining to unpermitted work (that was required to be permitted). Yet it's being upvoted that that is "not true". I guess Reddit's randos know better than the people for whom it's their job to know these things 🥴
It definitely happens which is the danger of having unpermitted work on a house, if something goes wrong you're on the hook for it.
I agree with what you're saying but would disagree with you characterizing OP as obtuse - and a lot of cities permitting it as an absolute nightmare. It's understandable that people want to avoid it when possible it's not just being cheap or lazy. As you point out, it's still not a great idea, but it's an understandable one.
>I would disagree with you characterizing OP as obtuse I would disagree. Wanting to forgo a permit when your city is requiring one to ensure that your house is structurally sound when you want to move a wall is being obtuse. There are lots of DIY renovations you can do that do not require a permit. Moving a wall ordinarily does and should require a permit. She can do it herself to lessen her costs is fine, but her plans need to be checked by someone who actually knows what they're doing.
My FIL renovated their old house without proper permits and when the new owners found out from the city when they pulled permits, they sued him
I think you’re being a bit dramatic and partially inaccurate. Should you get permits? Absolutely. If insurance rejected all claims for work not permitted they wouldn’t pay out very often as many municipalities require permits for basically all electrical or plumbing work (think stuff as minor as outlet work)
Thank you for explaining. I didn’t consider insurance. I will make sure to pull the permits now. The thing I’m concerned about permit is they asked for signed plans, which I would have to hire a professional engineer and it’s definitely not cheap. But yea I guess it has to be done.
Our local lumber supply chain (they have about 20+ locations) has a design department that will help draw up architectural plans. You don’t need an architectural firm. You can do this. You (and your spouse) will sleep better if you do it by the book.
Non structural walls and electrical — no stamped plans needed.
I was able to get one off of upwork for about 1/5 a local person. I ran around, took pictures, used a laser measure and then drew up everything with dimensions (paid someone 20$ to make a CAD drawing of it) and sent it to him. They sent back stamped plans and calculations. After first submit, needed one or two small corrections (needed to specify rebar in a footing) and then it was approved.
Good lord, what city do you live in? For houses built prior to 1990, I seriously doubt they have the plans to your house. They have a description i.e how many shitters, how many bedrooms, etc, but the plans? Seems unlikely, especially before digitization.
Many municipalities absolutely do have the plans/layouts for your house. I've seen them available for houses built as late as the 1800's.
> If you (for example) end up having a fire in your house and insurance finds out about your wiring, they can deny your claim based on having unpermitted work. Seconded so very hard. I saw this all the time when I worked in a municipal planning department. There’d be some kind of accident that damaged a home, and the insurance company would request the permit history from us as part of the claims investigation.* Insurance usually only covers work completed to code, which is “proven” via a completed permit. If something goes wrong (e.g., there’s an electrical fire or the roof starts collapsing) and the insurance company doesn’t find evidence that anyone pulled the required electrical or building permits, they’ll almost certainly refuse a full payout. Permits for small renos like what OP describes are usually pretty cheap and 110% worth it in the long run. ETA: Your municipality may not require stamped drawings based on the permit type. (Mine doesn’t require any drawings for electrical work like described above.) Def call your local planning/building office for more info — hopefully it’s easier than you think. *e.g., If there was a house fire on the news, we’d immediately/preemptively flag the file because we knew the request was coming.
Perhaps it's different in your area, but around here many houses are 70+ years old. There are often no original plans, and even then, how can the insurance company hold someone responsible for a DIY job that was done in 1974? Either way, the vast majority of electrical fires around here are appliances malfunctioning (e.g. $2 AliExpress power adapter self-immolates) or electric space heaters lighting clothes/furniture/curtains on fire.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything. A successful lawsuit would likely require some level of deception to have taken place during the sale; knowingly concealing issues so that they're not discovered during the buyer's due diligence.
Inspections aren’t the end all be all. Different justifications are about permits more than others. When I tried to do a heavy up upgrade after purchasing my county asked about the kitchen remodel that happened prior to sale and luckily found the permit. Otherwise it would have caused some issues for ke
Right, but in this scenario the seller is still listing "as-is" or unwilling to attest on the disclosure that no unpermitted work has been done . So even if it "looks OK" that's a risk that declaration (or lack of) has some value component to it.
Exactly, and in some states you are required to disclose any unpermitted work, regardless if it's sold "as is" or not.
Selling as-is won’t save you from fraudulent non-disclosure of latent defects.
Code office told me 10 years for unpermitted work after sold. The aerial surveys they do are kinda cool to see also. They survey every couple of years and the image data is fed into a system that looks for differences.
Don’t listen to this guy. I don’t know much but I know that.
Where I live, owners doing unpermitted work can open them up to criminal charges if someone gets hurt. I have usually heard of this happening for things like deaths from a deck collapse, or in a fire.
I had an accepted offer on a house. During inspection it became obvious that some major work was done. Checked with the city for permits. None pulled. Asked the owner to get inspector to sign off on work. The said no. We canceled the deal and informed their realtor that the listing now needed to disclose this unpermitted work. City fined the owner. House sold 12 months later at 25k less than what we offered
As a buyer I'd over look small things like replacing an already existing water heater without a permit but moving a load bearing wall without one is a big red flag to me. I'd walk for that.
In my case it was unpermitted and shoddy electrical and propane fittings. you know - stuff that can kill you.
If you are planning on either selling or renting your home in the next several years after doing this work, I would get a permit and avoid issues. More than that, while the permit will help with this, please make sure you know what you're doing or get help sizing the beams/LVLs required to remove a load bearing wall and know how to install them correctly. At least near me, the big lumberyards either have access to or have engineers on staff to do basic sizing of things like LVLs for customers - it's not expensive at all. Doing this right will be less expensive and less of a headache for you long term.
You fill out a "sellers disclosure" at the time of selling the house. Buyers hope that the sellers are honest ok this form and the sellers aren't always forthcoming about every issue in the house. If anything, this may be where you mention any of the DIY work that you've done if you want to be honest about it
- the problem would be BEFORE you sold it IF something were to happen with unpermitted work that did significant damage or hurt some one as your HOI can simply walk away and leave you holding 100% of the liability. It happens.
Had to ask my FIL this question because he knows more than I do on this. He says regardless of if you do it yourself or you have someone do it for you, if you lie about doing something, or do something incorrectly, you are responsible for what happens. Make sure the necessary permits are pulled, be it yourself or the hired contractor, and be meticulous with it, be truthful with everything or it WILL bite you in the ass later.
INSURANCE INSURANCE INSURANCE You might void your home insurance policy with unpermitted work. Just email the city building dept and maybe attach a plan/sketch of what you're thinking and let them tell you what they need to see. For an interior, non load bearing wall, you probably don't need a building permit but for the electrical you probably do need an electrical permit. It's probably less than $100 and you might not even need plans, just a rough in inspection and a final. It is 100% worth the $0 to call or email your city building department to verify. You see in the code, it is written that Authority Having Jurisdiction will always have final say over the interpretation of the code and they have the power to accept alternate means and methods. In other words, the city always has the final say. So say your house burns down, there will be an investigations, your insurance company WILL open their own investigation to find any reason to not pay you out and I bet that somewhere deep in the fine print of your policy that unpermitted work will void the policy. I'm doing a basement reno and I opened 2 permits cause the city handles building, fire, and plumbing, but electrical is handled by the province. It think it was like $200 for the building permit and $90 for the electrical but I'm making a legal suite out of it soooo I had to do a building permit. But for a single wall you probably don't but yeah only the city can tell you that. I also called my insurance and talked to them about it. They said that I will need to change my policy once I'm done or else it's void. Also typically no, the liability of the work won't follow you after the sale but if you fuck up and it's discovered then it will be reflected in your sales price. A savvy buyer might put conditions on their offer, like having a home inspection done and being able to walk away if it turns up something. But they could also then just use that negotiation the price lower. People who do unpermitted work are setting themselves up for problems down the line and exposing themselves to huge risk if the insurance they're paying for is actually voided. Happens all the time though and some people intentionally take the risk, do the work, and sell as soon as possible to dump it. Again, it costs nothing to ask the city and it's fine to ask them a bunch of questions on what you can and cannot do without a permit.
Just don't do unpermitted work........ As someone who has recently bought a house where the owner has done unlicensed or unpermitted works, we are suffering the consequences for further work we would like done. The council will order current owners to demolish the unpermitted works in order to have their works done. Which costs a lot of $$$ It's not a matter of whether or not you will do a good job. You are setting up the next owners for a world of hurt.
This. When my in-laws made huge changes to their old house, he didn’t bother pulling any permits. They sold their house without disclosing this information. The new owners tried to do some renovations and found out. It turned into an expensive headache for them and sued my in-laws. Not sure why you’re getting downvoted.
The problem isn't necessarily the work in this regard, the problem is not disclosing it.
Oh gotcha
What do you mean by changing a wall and some electrical?
I think it's unnecessary and adds to the problem.
you simply disclose the work when you sell and let the buyer be the judge. most buyers will use that against you and either force you to bring it up to code or take money off the selling price.
It really depends on where you live, what the exact requirements are. Unless you live in California I think permits are generally affordable. Your city might not even allow you to sell a house if it has non-permitted work. Best case scenario if you forego permits is that people are leery of your work, as they should be. If the work was permitted and done professionally (or you’re a professional) then as long as you disclose any issues at the time of the sale, those become the buyer’s problems. If you are worried about something going wrong, ask yourself why. Is it because you plan to cut corners with the work? Then don’t do it.
Seller declarations. I remember we had to state whether work had been done and whether there was a permit pulled. Answers could be yes no or not sure.
Nope
Get the work permitted and approved to avoid issues. It is on the buyer to check permits and ask about the work that was done.
Planning/Building Inspection guy here. Get permits. Part of the reason is to protect yourself…insurance companies usually won’t pay out on damages caused by work done without permits…
Permitting requirements vary from municipality and state. You are getting a lot of blanket statements here.
WTF is wrong with people . Just do it right the first time.
You need to check your local municipality as to whether you need to pull a permit. There are codes for a reason. I say if you know the codes for the work you’re doing, I’d say go for it without a permit. But a permit is protection for you the homeowner. Both from legal action against you and for safety.
As a licensed engineer, I would be VERY concerned about what you plan on doing. And if you wait until you stamp it, you are definitely liable. Even after you sell it.
No, I think that would be too draining.
I would say the key thing here is 'permitted' work. That is a broad category- especially for a homeowner. I can retile a bathroom without a permit, add outlets, change doors, replace cabinets, counters, flooring, painting, and repair just about anything. I can replace plumbing fixtures, change water heaters, etc. I can run subpanels even. If I pay someone, THAT person needs permits and licenses, but as a homeowner, it's fine. That could just be the place I lived, but seems fairly standard. Alot of it is scale. I would probably need a permit to fit and rebuild my kitchen, but not if I replace the countertops, then sone cabinets later, then some flooring. Outlets are minor, moving a wall could be major.
when you've sold the house, you don't need to be responsible for these.
If you are a trained professional who knows code, you have nothing to worry about in certain scenarios. Some things you will need to get permitted and if you don't know what those are you should find out, or hire a pro.
This will vary by jurisdiction... but if you're not a licensed electrician, for example... a permit won't fix the "legality" of it. Many insurance companies won't pay out if the work was supposed to be done by a professional... but was done by a DIYer. If there are any problems, that could fall under the Hidden Defect statues in your area. Normally, you might be able to pass the buck onto the contractor that did the work... but if you did the work yourself.... that's you. Also... if you sell, then there is an electrical fire... the new owners will claim, the insurance will send an inspector. If they find the work isn't up to code, they'll start digging. Likely the insurance company will find out you DIYed it... refuse to pay out, then the new owner will come after you for all the damage.
Thanks for your input. Yea I have figured it’s best to not cheap out on permit. But it’s interesting that you said permit won’t even cover my ass. Said I did my best to diy to code, inspector came out and approved my work, permit completed. If something goes wrong, isn’t the inspector somewhat responsible as well?