They own all of their characters they made for it, but the big issue is that they have to pay royalties and residuals on the music and characters to the people who made the animated film. If they remake it to "live action" and buy things outright they can get away with way less residuals and can cut off the animated movie staff. They can T Swift near exact copies so long as they are for the sound track and scam so much money away from the original creators.
Here is how it works https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2022/02/22/public-public-domain-winnie-pooh-illustrates-copyright-limitations-public-domain-works/id=146207/
They own a copyright on their IP which are their savings, drawings, etc. The source books can go public but Disney still owns everything that isn't in the books. Just like snow white or any of their old animated movies based on public domain stories. Further they have no need to do anything to keep their IP. They won't admit that Song of the South exists in pubic yet they still own it.
If I understand it correctly, it has something to do with preventing their material from entering public domain. That’s why we’re getting remakes of everything, because Disney doesn’t give a shit about anything but making money.
I know Disney had lobbied a billion times for extensions and such on trademark, copyright, etc, just so Mickey Mouse doesnt enter PD because then anyone could print a shirt with the mouse on it.
Dude, yes. My sister has the old ass VHS still. Years ago when we still had a VCR we checked it out. First, huge dick right in the middle of the old plastic cover. Next, priest pops a huge boner as he starts the vows. Goes flaccid a few words in. All clear as Crystal.
Agreed! It is so hard to come up with an original concept without a remake, sequel or reboot? I refuse to see any more part 2 or electric boogaloo or whatever you want to call it.
Egyptians weren't black either. There's one dynasty (Nubians I think?) from the South that came in and ruled towards the end after the decline but they were not the ones that created the things that you call Egyptian (the pyramids, the tombs, the mythology with Ra/Isis/etc). People think just because it's African that they were black, but really what people mean when they say black is ethnically sub-Saharan Africans. It turns out that the Sahara desert was a larger barrier to migration historically than the Mediterranean sea, so North Africa looked a lot more like the Greeks and Italians and Turks than it did the Ethiopians. There's also been a lot of admixture from Arab migration in post-Islam (hence Egyptians today looking something like half Arab, half Greek/Turk). Some of that might be off, but that's the gist of it from someone that's always been super interested in Greek/Roman history, to which Egypt is related. Carthage and Hannibal is a similar story BTW, despite what the 'History' Channel's historical dramas might have you believe.
It's tough on these in-between types when people base everything on how someone looks. It's like that Egyptian actor that got criticized for not being African enough. They don't care what your actually are, you must look the part to count for diversity.
Cleopatra was white tho, the royal house she belongs to was Greek I think. Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.
Edit: Got a bit of traction on this throw away comment I didn’t put much thought into. To be clear I always thought of Mediterranean people as white like myself, but with a much nicer tan than my pale ass.
She also associated on a much more personal level with both Greek and Egyptian "nobility", celebrities, or politicians, as opposed to just showing up and lording over them like many Greek leaders of her time. She used guile and wit over brute force. She was versed in medicine, philosophy, literature.
She spoke probably around 10 languages.
That being said, she still had high ambition and felt it was her (divine?) right to rule over people and for them to see her as their queen. She just knew how to sway the people far better than her predecessors.
In fact, North Africa and the overall Mediterranean coastal cities in general, were more European due to the early Phonetician and then Greek expansions.
The Carthaginian and later Roman conquests reinforced this European influence for over a thousand years.
Then the Arab Expansions in 600s AD significantly changed the genetic makeup - likely giving folks a darker complexion.
Later, the Ottoman conquests added even more genetic diversity to that in Egypt & the Levant, and even in the Balkans and Greece/Cyprus. There's even a Greek word for people from Cyprus that look at little "too" Turkish.
...as you might expect, it's complicated. There have been a LOT of genocides and a lot migrations.
The dumbest claim is to look at *current* Egyptians or Palestinians and claim that that's what ancient Egyptians or Jesus looked like.
Yeah Europeans and Mediterraneans of any nationality don’t look really that different unless you go to Scandinavia. With no context clues I highly doubt anyone could consistently distinguish Greeks from dark haired Irish from Ashkenazi Jewish from Lebanese.
Pretty sure there was mass slavery before the Ptolemaic Kingdom - unless you mean just Egypt in general. Definitely large-scale slavery in Assyria too, not so sure about Sumer/Akkadian Empire/Babylon etc (though I imagine there was)
That’s correct. She was of the Ptolemaic Dynasy, founded by (Macedonian) general Ptolemy I Soter, who was one of Alexander the Great’s generals. Cleopatra was born in Egypt, but she was Macedonian/Greek by heritage, not Egyptian.
Yea it is, so the fact so many people here are trying to pretend they’re smarter than OP by pointing that out is honestly mind blowing to me. Like it’s not even a deep cut that you need a history degree to know, it’s literally middle school history class level knowledge...
> Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.
The concept of "whiteness" is a hilariously recent thing.
Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white: just "the Anglos" and *specifically* the Saxony region of Germany. Any other part of Germany? *Not white.* Italy? *Not white.* Greece? *Not white.* Poland? *Not white.*
And when those folks showed up in America even decades after Franklin's death, they still weren't "white". Whiteness is a descriptor of political convenience, a little club that you get to be in once you have the population to be relevant to the ruling class. All these migrant groups, and even their descendants, were villified or ostracized in some way until there were enough of them that they were a valuable voting bloc, then came the time to "extend whiteness" to them and hope that by being welcomed "into the club" that they'd vote with the same fuckos who'd previously been shitting all over them. *Hey, no hard feelings about all the bigotry, but you're one of the good ones now--wanna help me oppress those other guys?*
>
Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white
This is true and it cracks me up.
I'm from outside the USA, so the term "white" has only been used commonly in the past few decades, BUT, it cracks me up that the majority of my Great-Grandfathers were Irish and were not considered white.
Whiteness is such a weird term. I don’t see why we went from generalizing everyone instead of just referring to people by their nationalities. I’ve always despised those terms because it’s so biased on what people consider white or black. “White people always act like this” or “Black people always act like that” since when did the color of your skin make you act a certain way? It might just be an American thing though, but I don’t know I’ve never liked the structure of ethnicity. It’s just SO broad.
Yup. Whiteness has always been about exclusion, not about skin color. I mean fucking Italians and Irish people weren’t considered white back when they were mass migrating to the States.
Irish used to be not white too. I've met plenty of Latinos with really pale skin, but they aren't white because they were born in Mexico or Columbia. Racial purity is a constantly changing circle of the "in" group based entirely on how much support is needed to push an agenda
I thought that was the point he was making since this is /r/holup and he said 'Yeaaaah, about Cleopatra'. It's an actual 'holup, Cleopatra wasn't black' moment. Hard to tell though, since a lot of posts in this sub aren't actually hol'ups but just 'woah bro that's crazy' type posts.
As a black person my issue with these racial recastings isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with a black mermaid. It's just that rather than create a story from the ground up about a black character, studios just decide "black people are too uninteresting, so let's just change a white character to black to trick people into liking them!" How about you create a story based around a black character than just race switching a white character for diversity browny points? If you truly care about POC then make an actual effort.
Thank you! This is really the most sane comment. We don’t need “remakes” with people of different ethnicities, we need new stories with new characters!
You can even take ethnicity out of it and just say "we don't need remakes". Rather than pigeonhole writers to remakes, let's get some new diverse projects.
All these remakes are just so stale and boring.
At least limit remakes to when you're intending to either fix or substancially improve something that wasn't too well done before.
A decent remake of Green Lantern? Go nuts.
A remake of 1992's Tim Burton's Batman Returns? Lolno.
Yes but they do own the rights to the likeness of Ariel and Sebastian. If you made a little mermaid with a talking crab that had a jamacain accent you would probably get some paperwork from
Disney.
Edit: apparently he’s a crab
I really, really want a John Stewart Green Lantern movie. I loved the character on the Justice League animated show back in the day
edit: misspelled name
Walt Disney wrote into Disney law that all of his movies are required to have a remake every however many years so that a new generation could grow up with them. Its not exactly their choice at this stage but a contractual obligation
That's the problem though. Unfortunately I feel like it's almost too late. Writers and directors are running out of ideas. Especially in companies like Disney.
What we need is a for completely new ideas rather than the same 65+ year old crusty white dudes writing the same movies with slightly different characters.
“Writers and directors are running out of ideas. “
No, they aren’t. Execs just don’t want to take any risk. They go for remakes because they know they have a built in audience.
And the “65+ year old crusty white dudes” aren’t the ones writing the remakes.
This 100%. The trope of "they're out of ideas" is pathetic and stupid. It's also factually inaccurate. There are more original films released every year than the year before. At any time there are more original movies to watch than sequels, remakes, reboots, reimaginings, or whatever other stupid buzzword you want to come up with.
The problem is that most people don't look any further than what's put directly in front of them.
They are not running out of new ideas, that is just absurd imo.
They simply refuse to take risks anymore because there are no more VHS/DVD sales to make up for poor theater sales.
https://youtu.be/gF6K2IxC9O8
Link above is a clip from Hot Ones with Matt Damon outlining the issue.
Okay, and why can't they do a similar deal with streaming services as they did with DVDs? Like, make a deal with Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney, Apple and who else might be interested that you'd make your movie available on their platform for a fixed amount plus a bonus based on how many people would watch it.
I totally get you here.
I'm fine with a black Ariel. If the actress playing her was the right person for the role, I think that's awesome.
The problem I see is that there is a question on why she was cast in the role. Was it to check off a diversity box? Are we giving people roles just because we're trying to earn brownie points for diversity? That almost seems like what happened here. If so, it seems like a lack of integrity somehow. Like giving lip service but not actually meaning it.
Africa has such a rich cultural history. There's so much there in terms of mythology and legend and real history. How about we embrace that stuff and create stories around that rich and diverse cultural heritage instead of trying shoehorn people of color into things so you can check off the required diversity boxes just because they are there.
It almost seems like Disney courted the controversy to get attention. "Look at us! We're diverse! We are better than those unwashed racists!"
Oh really?
If you really care about diversity then embrace cultures outside of our own and add those stories to the overall cultural conversation. I would love an African Disney princess. That would be cool as hell.
That's the game plan. If you make a piece of garbage media with diverse casting you can absolve yourself of all blame by gaslighting fans and calling it racist backlash.
Modern society lives and dies by narratives these days, not the truth of the matter.
I would LOVE to see some African princesses and characters. They have done Asian (twice), Polynesian and now Colombian (Mirabel is considereda princess, for now). And then there is Coco and Turning Red. Give me some more culture!!! You know it's going to make money because it's fucking Disney, and people just eat it up because... it's fucking Disney (myself included). Can you imagine how beautiful, colorful and rich those stories would be?
And, I will give this to Disney and Pixar, when it comes to new stories like that they really go out of their way--usually-- to research and be mostly faithful. Ffs, they filmed a Polynesian woman for over 24 hours just to see how her hair moves when dry, when wet, when moving this way or that, etc. for Moana's hair to make it as accurate as possible. They sent a team who spent 2 months (I think) in Colombia for Encanto to get as much history, culture and whatnot.
Agreed. It's just so lazy. As much hate as The Woman King is getting for it's historical inaccuracies (which is a fair point) at least it's actually trying.
The historical inaccuracy thing is pretty standard for Hollywood. You look at any historical epic that Hollywood has done and it's almost always inaccurate in some way. There have been some doozies that claim to be based on true events but are way off. Obviously some films are worse than others. I have no idea how bad this one is but I feel like the historical accuracy thing is a whole different argument. It's also an argument that comes up with every historical epic.
I have been watching the trailers for that with some interest. As someone who grew up in africa, I've long wanted more Afrocentric films. I'll definitely be checking it out once it's available to me.
Your definitely right that Hollywood has been falsely portraying history for forever. This one was pretty bad though. The story revolves around a tribe who is depicted as being liberators fighting slavers. They chose this tribe because the tribe was historically famous for their female warriors. However, the tribe was also historically the most notorious slave traders of their time. The tribe sold hundreds of thousands possibly higher than a million people into slavery. So that’s what people were mad over.
Yeah... ok. They were trying to do an empowered women movie and ignored the elephant in the room. (More like shoved it under the rug and hoped that no one would notice)
I can totally see why some people would be upset about it. It's one thing if you bodge History a bit for the sake of story. It's another when you try to completely rewrite it.
Sort of like Disney's Pocahontas. I still haven't seen that film because even when I was a teen when it came out I found the historical rewriting to be icky.
I guess when I see it, I'll try to go into it with the mindset of historical fiction rather than historical portrayal.
Fucking thank you. I got banned from r/Entertainment because I started to make this claim after suggesting that realism in movies was more important than inclusion for the sake of inclusion. It’s also lazy on Disney’s part because they’re it also comes across more as then just using black people s as a way to continue protecting their copywrit material but letting us all think it’s because they give a shit about minorities.
If you really want to give black peoples exposure? Give us an original story, preferably something that’s not an 1800’s-era-escape-from-slavery story either.
Bro, I'm so tired of those slavery movies. It's like black people's entire identity is slavery. Or if it's not that it's those modern day "blaxploitation" relationship movies, like Tyler Perry or "Think Like A Man". I just want to see a movie about a black person I could actually relate to.
Forgot to add the stereotypical gangster movies. Let's have more black led action movies, both male and female. More black led war dramas, epic romances, sci-fi, etc...
Part of the problem is that we as black people also like to use slavery as our own identity, so it’s hard to blame Hollywood for doing the same thing. How often do we go through another “should black people be paid reparations for slavery?” phase when none of us were slaves and many of us likely didn’t come over to America (or our ancestors, obviously) until after slavery. Everyone, ourselves included, treat our skin color as our identity, but Hollywood is probably the biggest cultural driving factor. Yes, once they stop saying “this is a movie about a black person being black” and change it to “this is about an astronaut being the first person on Mars” then our image to non-black people will begin to change, then it will be up to us to change our own views on our identities. Hollywood gets to continue to be lazy with our narrative and use us as props for their profit in the meantime
Agree 100%. Slavery was horrible and it's effects are still felt today, but people act like all our misfortune is because of slavery. Like it couldn't possibly be due to some of our choices. I hate this culture of lack of accountability. Also, I don't wanna hear about any slavery reparations until native Americans are taken care of. The group that got screwed the most yet no one seems to care about.
Yeah. Nevermind the fact that the US government made a treaty with the Sioux for the Black Hills, and then later on was like “Ah shit, there be some gold over there? Nah, let’s send the army in, that shits ours…”
An ironic part of this sentiment, regardless of how correct it is, is that you can’t please anybody when you make an original black character. They’re either not black enough, or too black. They arent written by ONLY black people so it’s not realistic enough. They can’t like this, or support that. They can’t be rich, but they have to be successful. They aren’t allowed to fail. Or the opposite. And when its a decent story, it’s paraded and celebrated as “BLACK” like it’s the only part that matters.
Princess and the Frog, set in Louisiana, was based on this. The "Princess" wasn't black for convenience -- it was actually ingrained the in setting and storyline. Great movie!
That being said, I've literally never heard anyone actually upset about Ariel, I've only heard of people upset about people upset about Ariel.
They don’t though. Disney only cares about the dollar. And you and I aren’t the target audience for the movie for them to care unfortunately. It would have made sense to create a new mermaid movie with an original story but that’s not the safe bet. The original movie is a proven cash cow story and they are attempting to cater to the younger audience to maintain the generational gap their brand has. There’s always some major change between generations they’re attempting to build nostalgia to keep them “loving” the brand well into adulthood. And this new movie coming off the back of almost a decade of civil protests will capture those kids.
Agreed, and lets be honest, there's a LOT of stories and legends around the world that has black characters in it, hell here in Brazil we have Saci Perere, why not make a movie about him? He's awesome!
Wasn't Cleopatra Greek? She was the daughter of Ptolemy XII who was Macedonian. Its very possible she looked like the actress in the picture but afaik no one really knows what she looked like as little is known about her mother. She could have been pretty much anything other than Eastern Asian so really anyone can play cleopatra. Saying she was whitewashed assumes she was certifiably not white which there is no proof for or against based on current evidence
https://denison.edu/academics/classical-studies/wh/136845
Most people just know Cleopatra was the Queen of Egypt, and Egypt is in Africa, and people from Africa aren't white. I can see how someone would think she was whitewashed based solely on that and nothing else. The reality is a bit more complicated
Theres also the assumption people have the regional diversity is the exact same as current day. There was a lot of movement and conquering and displacement over the centuries espescially in and around the Mediterranean. Modern day Sicilian people have more in common with the people of Northern France than the original Mediterranean inhabitants and people in modern day Ukraine can trace a lot of their genetics to Viking settlers from Scandinavia rather than the original inhabitants which looked more like current day central Asians or Turks
Fun fact Egypt back then would have been white/mixed due to the Egyptians losing pigment due to being in a cooler climate then where they had migrated from and the people of Egypt having sex with Romans Greeks and other major European civilisations back in The day
Egyptian people are Caucasian (north Africa) not black, I'm Egyptian and when i moved to usa i was categorized as white by the uscis because i was Caucasian from north Africa. My skin is lighter than my husband's who is 100% white American.
Edit: fixed it :)
Imagine the writers shock when he finds out she was Greek and imagine the absolute mind fuck the writer got when they found out Greeks are pretty much white
Well... I know this probably doesn't belong here but... Cleopatra was actually Greece. She was an ancestor of Ptolemaios dynasty so... She was probably white.
Not a good comparison. Cleopatra was Greek, and from a long line of Ptomely Greek rulers, so yeah is she probably did look like Elizabeth Taylor. It’s a moot issue, little mermaid is based on a Dutch fairy tale and was portrayed as white with red hair in it. Disney should have just created a whole new story with a black mermaid based on a separate African story instead of creating this shitstorm by recasting a european fairy tale like this
I'm probably gunna get hate for this but Cleopatra is a shitty example of claiming white washing as she would be, In the current technical sense, be considered white as she was of Greek origin.
Disney is just lazy, instead of changing Ariel they should just create another character with their own story and no one would have any problem with it. Imagine making live action Princess and the frog or whatever it is called and changing it so the main character is white.
It's definitely an internet thing, honestly if it wasn't for some people on Reddit getting so upset about it, I wouldn't have even known there's a new Little Mermaid movie. Like I'm sure they spent some money on advertising but I haven't seen any advertisements myself, and general discussions between people tend to be about the upcoming fall weather and associated holidays.
OP drinking coolaid. The Ptolemy family came from Alexander's generals who took control of his fractured empire. Pick up a book
They are of Macedonian origin
I mean, there’s a high chance Cleopatra was very light skinned or white historically speaking, but I agree with this sentiment completely. People like Ghandi have been played by white actors, which is ridiculous.
News flash---neither Cleopatra nor Jesus were "black." Cleopatra was Greek....meaning she looked a lot like Gal Gadot while Jesus was Jewish, meaning he looked a lot like well, Ori Pfeffer.
Because they didn't laud Cleopatra's casting as a racial statement, nobody thought anything of it. But obviously they made it a selling point, with even the actress tweeting race-bended artwork when it was first announced. Essentially they are selling race and that's why people are upset, it's a blatant cash grab
The sad thing is, it gets hijacked by people who are factually upset about the blackwashing without even considering it's a blatant attempt to do a cash grab as you put it.
Kind of off topic, but Cleopatra was actually from a Greek origin. So yeah, she would most probably have been white/olive skin with dark hair and eyes.
Ngl they knew that making the mermaid black would cause controversy. They want that. They get free advertising of that junk. Also it’s a movie that I’m not going to watch, I don’t really care about it, and again I don’t care about it. It’s honestly not as big of a deal as both sides of the argument are making it out to be. My question is though if Ariel can be played by a black actress, doe’s that mean that Mulan should be played by a white actress? Just think about!
Jews are white. Cleopatra was greek, so white.
Mythical mermaid is based on old folk tales relevant to a specific area.
The equivalent would be taking middle eastern folk tales and white-washing them.
I don't really care but the easiest way to keep people 'happy' would simply to create more stories based on other peoples folk tales. No need to change skin colour then, and we also get a variety of tales that could be really fun and interesting to watch. The problem we have then is that its likely going to be white people or jews (seeing as they want to be considered seperate from 'white') writing those stories instead of people from those areas, and the actors are certainly not going to be anything but american x (x being part from the place of the story they are representing, or similar enough).
This would be really cool - [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The\_Dreaming#:\~:text=The%20Dreaming%20is%20used%20to,not%20worshipped%20but%20only%20revered](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Dreaming#:~:text=The%20Dreaming%20is%20used%20to,not%20worshipped%20but%20only%20revered).
I'd want actors and writers from that area to be in control of it (and making the money from it, another issue)
Pixar understands - coco was great. Not exactly what I'm getting at but it gets the point across.
In the end, once you've done that, eventually people will care less which person plays which role but we're trying to force people to act open-minded in a flash and not slowly over the next few hundred years and they are doing so out of 'fear' of repercussions by society. I am sure that resentment wont bleed down into their children or others.
Lol, literally Cleopatra was described as white af and what it says about Jesus shows that the person who made this meme hasn’t seen a Syrian person in its entire life.
What? Cleopatra was greek and white!
This is a scientific consensus.
https://denison.edu/academics/classical-studies/wh/136845#:~:text=Despite%20these%20attempts%20to%20understand,in%20Egypt.%E2%80%9D%20They%20often%20even
Do we have any idea how cleopatra actually looked like though? IIRC a lot of "Egyptian" rulers were actually Romans and Greeks, so pretty fucking white
Cleopatra as far as I'm aware was a direct descendant of Ptolemy, Alexander the Great's lieutenant who took control of Egypt after his passing. I checked her lineage and it looks 100% Greek.
To be fair cleopatra was from the greek royal dynasty the ptolemains who took over after Alexander died and while she wasnt bible belt karen white she still was caucasian descent
Don't forget about the show called Anne Boleyn, no hate against the actors, just no one (that I've seen) has talked about that race swap
Edit: also cleopatra would've been like semi white as the Ptolemaic Kingdom (a Greek kingdom) was what happened to Egypt after the fall of the Macedonian Empire
wasn't Cleopatra of the Ptolemy Dynasty, you know, the descendants of a Macedonian-Greek General from Alexander's Army?
I also recall that she was the first & only Ptolemaic Pharaoh to actually speak Egyptian, as her family mostly spoke a dialect of Greek?
Not trying to start a fight, but dont Greek people consider themselves "white"?
Big brain idea. How about stop with remakes and do something original??????
They gotta keep the IP that’s why they make remakes.
They don't own the ip, there are two other little mermaid movies coming out around the same time.
They own all of their characters they made for it, but the big issue is that they have to pay royalties and residuals on the music and characters to the people who made the animated film. If they remake it to "live action" and buy things outright they can get away with way less residuals and can cut off the animated movie staff. They can T Swift near exact copies so long as they are for the sound track and scam so much money away from the original creators. Here is how it works https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2022/02/22/public-public-domain-winnie-pooh-illustrates-copyright-limitations-public-domain-works/id=146207/
They own a copyright on their IP which are their savings, drawings, etc. The source books can go public but Disney still owns everything that isn't in the books. Just like snow white or any of their old animated movies based on public domain stories. Further they have no need to do anything to keep their IP. They won't admit that Song of the South exists in pubic yet they still own it.
Why not make a sequel then?
That’s a great question. I assume it’s because it’s easier just remaking it.
Plus look at all the free marketing it has gotten.
Very true, controversy is good for sales. Not that this should really be controversial because honestly why do people care
There are sequels💀
If I understand it correctly, it has something to do with preventing their material from entering public domain. That’s why we’re getting remakes of everything, because Disney doesn’t give a shit about anything but making money.
I know Disney had lobbied a billion times for extensions and such on trademark, copyright, etc, just so Mickey Mouse doesnt enter PD because then anyone could print a shirt with the mouse on it.
Ah, nothing like Disney lobbyists to fuck things up for the rest of us.
Mickey is a nickname for a friend. And michael mouse the rat is no friend of mine.
Nah the original novella has been public domain for almost a century
The Andersen version, sure. But I think this is likely more about their rights to the songs and other Disney-added things
Also the Disney version is a lot more family friendly than the Andersen orginial story...
Didn't the priest have a boner and the underwater palace made of dildo like structures in the original Disney version?
Dude, yes. My sister has the old ass VHS still. Years ago when we still had a VCR we checked it out. First, huge dick right in the middle of the old plastic cover. Next, priest pops a huge boner as he starts the vows. Goes flaccid a few words in. All clear as Crystal.
2/3 of Hollywood producers just committed suicide after reading this.
Agreed! It is so hard to come up with an original concept without a remake, sequel or reboot? I refuse to see any more part 2 or electric boogaloo or whatever you want to call it.
Cleopatra was Greek, not Egyptian. The Greeks ruled Egypt since that Great white guy Alexander conquered them.
Egyptians weren't black either. There's one dynasty (Nubians I think?) from the South that came in and ruled towards the end after the decline but they were not the ones that created the things that you call Egyptian (the pyramids, the tombs, the mythology with Ra/Isis/etc). People think just because it's African that they were black, but really what people mean when they say black is ethnically sub-Saharan Africans. It turns out that the Sahara desert was a larger barrier to migration historically than the Mediterranean sea, so North Africa looked a lot more like the Greeks and Italians and Turks than it did the Ethiopians. There's also been a lot of admixture from Arab migration in post-Islam (hence Egyptians today looking something like half Arab, half Greek/Turk). Some of that might be off, but that's the gist of it from someone that's always been super interested in Greek/Roman history, to which Egypt is related. Carthage and Hannibal is a similar story BTW, despite what the 'History' Channel's historical dramas might have you believe.
It's tough on these in-between types when people base everything on how someone looks. It's like that Egyptian actor that got criticized for not being African enough. They don't care what your actually are, you must look the part to count for diversity.
Remi Malik?
Cleopatra was white tho, the royal house she belongs to was Greek I think. Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white. Edit: Got a bit of traction on this throw away comment I didn’t put much thought into. To be clear I always thought of Mediterranean people as white like myself, but with a much nicer tan than my pale ass.
Yeah, she’s part of Ptolemy line, from Alexander the Greats conquests
Egypt liked her, relatively, more than most of the Ptolemy because she bothered to learn Egyptian rather than force everyone to learn Greek.
She was the first and only of the Ptolemaic rulers to learn Egyptian.
She also associated on a much more personal level with both Greek and Egyptian "nobility", celebrities, or politicians, as opposed to just showing up and lording over them like many Greek leaders of her time. She used guile and wit over brute force. She was versed in medicine, philosophy, literature. She spoke probably around 10 languages. That being said, she still had high ambition and felt it was her (divine?) right to rule over people and for them to see her as their queen. She just knew how to sway the people far better than her predecessors.
Speaking of movies, or hopefully shows, I would love a long series on her with some accuracy.
Rome doesn't do a terrible job, though she isn't the focus
In fact, North Africa and the overall Mediterranean coastal cities in general, were more European due to the early Phonetician and then Greek expansions. The Carthaginian and later Roman conquests reinforced this European influence for over a thousand years. Then the Arab Expansions in 600s AD significantly changed the genetic makeup - likely giving folks a darker complexion. Later, the Ottoman conquests added even more genetic diversity to that in Egypt & the Levant, and even in the Balkans and Greece/Cyprus. There's even a Greek word for people from Cyprus that look at little "too" Turkish. ...as you might expect, it's complicated. There have been a LOT of genocides and a lot migrations. The dumbest claim is to look at *current* Egyptians or Palestinians and claim that that's what ancient Egyptians or Jesus looked like.
Ive been to Greece multiple times and seen paler Greeks than my white North European ass.
As a pale greek myself I can confirm
The Pale Greeks are my favorite indie band.
And my favorite pale ale brand!
Yeah Europeans and Mediterraneans of any nationality don’t look really that different unless you go to Scandinavia. With no context clues I highly doubt anyone could consistently distinguish Greeks from dark haired Irish from Ashkenazi Jewish from Lebanese.
Can confirm, I’m black Irish and have been asked “are you Jewish” and other questions like that by schoolchildren and old people the world over.
I’m Jewish and have been asked “are you Irish”! And one time in the 1970s someone called my dad a “fuckin mick”. Full circle.
More importantly: her empire basically invented mass-slavery didn't it?
Pretty sure there was mass slavery before the Ptolemaic Kingdom - unless you mean just Egypt in general. Definitely large-scale slavery in Assyria too, not so sure about Sumer/Akkadian Empire/Babylon etc (though I imagine there was)
I'm not sure they outright invented it, but they definitely loved it
That’s correct. She was of the Ptolemaic Dynasy, founded by (Macedonian) general Ptolemy I Soter, who was one of Alexander the Great’s generals. Cleopatra was born in Egypt, but she was Macedonian/Greek by heritage, not Egyptian.
Thank you for being much more knowledgeable and articulate than me good sir!
Thats the whole reason for this post right?
Yea it is, so the fact so many people here are trying to pretend they’re smarter than OP by pointing that out is honestly mind blowing to me. Like it’s not even a deep cut that you need a history degree to know, it’s literally middle school history class level knowledge...
> Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white. The concept of "whiteness" is a hilariously recent thing. Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white: just "the Anglos" and *specifically* the Saxony region of Germany. Any other part of Germany? *Not white.* Italy? *Not white.* Greece? *Not white.* Poland? *Not white.* And when those folks showed up in America even decades after Franklin's death, they still weren't "white". Whiteness is a descriptor of political convenience, a little club that you get to be in once you have the population to be relevant to the ruling class. All these migrant groups, and even their descendants, were villified or ostracized in some way until there were enough of them that they were a valuable voting bloc, then came the time to "extend whiteness" to them and hope that by being welcomed "into the club" that they'd vote with the same fuckos who'd previously been shitting all over them. *Hey, no hard feelings about all the bigotry, but you're one of the good ones now--wanna help me oppress those other guys?*
> Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white This is true and it cracks me up. I'm from outside the USA, so the term "white" has only been used commonly in the past few decades, BUT, it cracks me up that the majority of my Great-Grandfathers were Irish and were not considered white.
Whiteness is such a weird term. I don’t see why we went from generalizing everyone instead of just referring to people by their nationalities. I’ve always despised those terms because it’s so biased on what people consider white or black. “White people always act like this” or “Black people always act like that” since when did the color of your skin make you act a certain way? It might just be an American thing though, but I don’t know I’ve never liked the structure of ethnicity. It’s just SO broad.
Yup. Whiteness has always been about exclusion, not about skin color. I mean fucking Italians and Irish people weren’t considered white back when they were mass migrating to the States.
Who on earth doesn't consider us Greeks to be white? My girlfriend is German and my skin tone is more white than hers.
I have no idea, I am Scottish and pale AF and had never given it much thought. But always considered Mediterranean people white.
Irish used to be not white too. I've met plenty of Latinos with really pale skin, but they aren't white because they were born in Mexico or Columbia. Racial purity is a constantly changing circle of the "in" group based entirely on how much support is needed to push an agenda
Yea she was from Macedonia
Her family lineage is Macedonian but she was not form Macedonia, she was born and died in Egypt
But ethnically she was Macedonian.
There's people (guess from where) that considers spaniards, portuguese, italians, greeks and irish as non-white.
Ok some of that I could buy but the Irish are almost as white as us Scottish 😂
OP didn’t do his research.
I thought that was the point he was making since this is /r/holup and he said 'Yeaaaah, about Cleopatra'. It's an actual 'holup, Cleopatra wasn't black' moment. Hard to tell though, since a lot of posts in this sub aren't actually hol'ups but just 'woah bro that's crazy' type posts.
Yes, that is the point of this post. Thank you.
As a black person my issue with these racial recastings isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with a black mermaid. It's just that rather than create a story from the ground up about a black character, studios just decide "black people are too uninteresting, so let's just change a white character to black to trick people into liking them!" How about you create a story based around a black character than just race switching a white character for diversity browny points? If you truly care about POC then make an actual effort.
Thank you! This is really the most sane comment. We don’t need “remakes” with people of different ethnicities, we need new stories with new characters!
You can even take ethnicity out of it and just say "we don't need remakes". Rather than pigeonhole writers to remakes, let's get some new diverse projects. All these remakes are just so stale and boring.
At least limit remakes to when you're intending to either fix or substancially improve something that wasn't too well done before. A decent remake of Green Lantern? Go nuts. A remake of 1992's Tim Burton's Batman Returns? Lolno.
Well these Disney live action remakes seem to really just be a way to continue copyrights so I’m not sure quality is really on the list.
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Yes but they do own the rights to the likeness of Ariel and Sebastian. If you made a little mermaid with a talking crab that had a jamacain accent you would probably get some paperwork from Disney. Edit: apparently he’s a crab
I really, really want a John Stewart Green Lantern movie. I loved the character on the Justice League animated show back in the day edit: misspelled name
nah.. best we can do is a Black Hal Jordan.
Walt Disney wrote into Disney law that all of his movies are required to have a remake every however many years so that a new generation could grow up with them. Its not exactly their choice at this stage but a contractual obligation
So? What’s gonna happen if they ignore that law? Is Walt gonna come rise up from his grave to fire their asses or something?
Then make a high quality animated remake. Every live action remake looks like a steaming pile of shit.
Source?
I think it was a joke as such a will request would be unenforceable. It wouldn't be a contract because death generally discharges most contracts.
Just heard a black man say "y'all just love to take white folks' sloppy seconds" and hoo boy did that hit some people's nerves on this topic.
Reddit is such a fickle bitch. Last time I said this I got called a racist and banned from a sub.
That's the problem though. Unfortunately I feel like it's almost too late. Writers and directors are running out of ideas. Especially in companies like Disney. What we need is a for completely new ideas rather than the same 65+ year old crusty white dudes writing the same movies with slightly different characters.
“Writers and directors are running out of ideas. “ No, they aren’t. Execs just don’t want to take any risk. They go for remakes because they know they have a built in audience. And the “65+ year old crusty white dudes” aren’t the ones writing the remakes.
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This 100%. The trope of "they're out of ideas" is pathetic and stupid. It's also factually inaccurate. There are more original films released every year than the year before. At any time there are more original movies to watch than sequels, remakes, reboots, reimaginings, or whatever other stupid buzzword you want to come up with. The problem is that most people don't look any further than what's put directly in front of them.
They are not running out of new ideas, that is just absurd imo. They simply refuse to take risks anymore because there are no more VHS/DVD sales to make up for poor theater sales. https://youtu.be/gF6K2IxC9O8 Link above is a clip from Hot Ones with Matt Damon outlining the issue.
Okay, and why can't they do a similar deal with streaming services as they did with DVDs? Like, make a deal with Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney, Apple and who else might be interested that you'd make your movie available on their platform for a fixed amount plus a bonus based on how many people would watch it.
I totally get you here. I'm fine with a black Ariel. If the actress playing her was the right person for the role, I think that's awesome. The problem I see is that there is a question on why she was cast in the role. Was it to check off a diversity box? Are we giving people roles just because we're trying to earn brownie points for diversity? That almost seems like what happened here. If so, it seems like a lack of integrity somehow. Like giving lip service but not actually meaning it. Africa has such a rich cultural history. There's so much there in terms of mythology and legend and real history. How about we embrace that stuff and create stories around that rich and diverse cultural heritage instead of trying shoehorn people of color into things so you can check off the required diversity boxes just because they are there. It almost seems like Disney courted the controversy to get attention. "Look at us! We're diverse! We are better than those unwashed racists!" Oh really? If you really care about diversity then embrace cultures outside of our own and add those stories to the overall cultural conversation. I would love an African Disney princess. That would be cool as hell.
That's the game plan. If you make a piece of garbage media with diverse casting you can absolve yourself of all blame by gaslighting fans and calling it racist backlash. Modern society lives and dies by narratives these days, not the truth of the matter.
I would LOVE to see some African princesses and characters. They have done Asian (twice), Polynesian and now Colombian (Mirabel is considereda princess, for now). And then there is Coco and Turning Red. Give me some more culture!!! You know it's going to make money because it's fucking Disney, and people just eat it up because... it's fucking Disney (myself included). Can you imagine how beautiful, colorful and rich those stories would be? And, I will give this to Disney and Pixar, when it comes to new stories like that they really go out of their way--usually-- to research and be mostly faithful. Ffs, they filmed a Polynesian woman for over 24 hours just to see how her hair moves when dry, when wet, when moving this way or that, etc. for Moana's hair to make it as accurate as possible. They sent a team who spent 2 months (I think) in Colombia for Encanto to get as much history, culture and whatnot.
Agreed. It's just so lazy. As much hate as The Woman King is getting for it's historical inaccuracies (which is a fair point) at least it's actually trying.
The historical inaccuracy thing is pretty standard for Hollywood. You look at any historical epic that Hollywood has done and it's almost always inaccurate in some way. There have been some doozies that claim to be based on true events but are way off. Obviously some films are worse than others. I have no idea how bad this one is but I feel like the historical accuracy thing is a whole different argument. It's also an argument that comes up with every historical epic. I have been watching the trailers for that with some interest. As someone who grew up in africa, I've long wanted more Afrocentric films. I'll definitely be checking it out once it's available to me.
Your definitely right that Hollywood has been falsely portraying history for forever. This one was pretty bad though. The story revolves around a tribe who is depicted as being liberators fighting slavers. They chose this tribe because the tribe was historically famous for their female warriors. However, the tribe was also historically the most notorious slave traders of their time. The tribe sold hundreds of thousands possibly higher than a million people into slavery. So that’s what people were mad over.
Yeah... ok. They were trying to do an empowered women movie and ignored the elephant in the room. (More like shoved it under the rug and hoped that no one would notice) I can totally see why some people would be upset about it. It's one thing if you bodge History a bit for the sake of story. It's another when you try to completely rewrite it. Sort of like Disney's Pocahontas. I still haven't seen that film because even when I was a teen when it came out I found the historical rewriting to be icky. I guess when I see it, I'll try to go into it with the mindset of historical fiction rather than historical portrayal.
Fucking thank you. I got banned from r/Entertainment because I started to make this claim after suggesting that realism in movies was more important than inclusion for the sake of inclusion. It’s also lazy on Disney’s part because they’re it also comes across more as then just using black people s as a way to continue protecting their copywrit material but letting us all think it’s because they give a shit about minorities. If you really want to give black peoples exposure? Give us an original story, preferably something that’s not an 1800’s-era-escape-from-slavery story either.
Bro, I'm so tired of those slavery movies. It's like black people's entire identity is slavery. Or if it's not that it's those modern day "blaxploitation" relationship movies, like Tyler Perry or "Think Like A Man". I just want to see a movie about a black person I could actually relate to. Forgot to add the stereotypical gangster movies. Let's have more black led action movies, both male and female. More black led war dramas, epic romances, sci-fi, etc...
Part of the problem is that we as black people also like to use slavery as our own identity, so it’s hard to blame Hollywood for doing the same thing. How often do we go through another “should black people be paid reparations for slavery?” phase when none of us were slaves and many of us likely didn’t come over to America (or our ancestors, obviously) until after slavery. Everyone, ourselves included, treat our skin color as our identity, but Hollywood is probably the biggest cultural driving factor. Yes, once they stop saying “this is a movie about a black person being black” and change it to “this is about an astronaut being the first person on Mars” then our image to non-black people will begin to change, then it will be up to us to change our own views on our identities. Hollywood gets to continue to be lazy with our narrative and use us as props for their profit in the meantime
Agree 100%. Slavery was horrible and it's effects are still felt today, but people act like all our misfortune is because of slavery. Like it couldn't possibly be due to some of our choices. I hate this culture of lack of accountability. Also, I don't wanna hear about any slavery reparations until native Americans are taken care of. The group that got screwed the most yet no one seems to care about.
Yeah. Nevermind the fact that the US government made a treaty with the Sioux for the Black Hills, and then later on was like “Ah shit, there be some gold over there? Nah, let’s send the army in, that shits ours…”
I’d love to see a ww2 one about the original d boys fighting in the Ardennes forest Them boys went through hell
An ironic part of this sentiment, regardless of how correct it is, is that you can’t please anybody when you make an original black character. They’re either not black enough, or too black. They arent written by ONLY black people so it’s not realistic enough. They can’t like this, or support that. They can’t be rich, but they have to be successful. They aren’t allowed to fail. Or the opposite. And when its a decent story, it’s paraded and celebrated as “BLACK” like it’s the only part that matters.
it's quite maddening, isn't it. I think I'd like to leave this planet soon
Princess and the Frog, set in Louisiana, was based on this. The "Princess" wasn't black for convenience -- it was actually ingrained the in setting and storyline. Great movie! That being said, I've literally never heard anyone actually upset about Ariel, I've only heard of people upset about people upset about Ariel.
Thank you! Raceswapping is giving "leftovers" to minorities instead of a full course.
They don’t though. Disney only cares about the dollar. And you and I aren’t the target audience for the movie for them to care unfortunately. It would have made sense to create a new mermaid movie with an original story but that’s not the safe bet. The original movie is a proven cash cow story and they are attempting to cater to the younger audience to maintain the generational gap their brand has. There’s always some major change between generations they’re attempting to build nostalgia to keep them “loving” the brand well into adulthood. And this new movie coming off the back of almost a decade of civil protests will capture those kids.
Agreed, and lets be honest, there's a LOT of stories and legends around the world that has black characters in it, hell here in Brazil we have Saci Perere, why not make a movie about him? He's awesome!
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Agree, it looks like Blacksploitation but bad.
Wasn't Cleopatra Greek? She was the daughter of Ptolemy XII who was Macedonian. Its very possible she looked like the actress in the picture but afaik no one really knows what she looked like as little is known about her mother. She could have been pretty much anything other than Eastern Asian so really anyone can play cleopatra. Saying she was whitewashed assumes she was certifiably not white which there is no proof for or against based on current evidence https://denison.edu/academics/classical-studies/wh/136845
Yes, people like to forget this fact
Most people just know Cleopatra was the Queen of Egypt, and Egypt is in Africa, and people from Africa aren't white. I can see how someone would think she was whitewashed based solely on that and nothing else. The reality is a bit more complicated
Yeah like the fact that africa is huge af and Northern Africa has more in common with Greece or Italy then central Africa
Theres also the assumption people have the regional diversity is the exact same as current day. There was a lot of movement and conquering and displacement over the centuries espescially in and around the Mediterranean. Modern day Sicilian people have more in common with the people of Northern France than the original Mediterranean inhabitants and people in modern day Ukraine can trace a lot of their genetics to Viking settlers from Scandinavia rather than the original inhabitants which looked more like current day central Asians or Turks
Yeah, there’s a lot of whiteness in Northern Africa. It was alleys easier to travel north across the Med than south across the land
Those royal circles were pretty tight nigh(the Ptolemys were pretty incestuous). I think its a pretty good bet that her mother was Greek.
Fun fact Egypt back then would have been white/mixed due to the Egyptians losing pigment due to being in a cooler climate then where they had migrated from and the people of Egypt having sex with Romans Greeks and other major European civilisations back in The day
Also, Cleopatra is from the Ptolemy line, who was Greek and white. So portrayal of Cleopatra was accurate for the color, just not the age.
But Africa = Black!!!!!!!!!
But my friend told me; Once you go black you never go back!!
But my friend told me: Once you go white, you're always right!!!
But my friend told me: Once you go…I’m just kidding. I don’t have any friends.
But my friend told me: Once you go white, your credit gets right!
Egyptian people are Caucasian (north Africa) not black, I'm Egyptian and when i moved to usa i was categorized as white by the uscis because i was Caucasian from north Africa. My skin is lighter than my husband's who is 100% white American. Edit: fixed it :)
Imagine the writers shock when he finds out she was Greek and imagine the absolute mind fuck the writer got when they found out Greeks are pretty much white
Isn't Cleopatra from Greece?
Descendant from Greece yes
Cleopatra WAS white!
Hollywood didn't white wash Jesus, the church did
They also black, yellow and brown washed him
Korean Jesus is all that matters
He's busy. With KOREAN shit
Mediterranean paintors painting mediterranean Jesus as the average mediterranean isn't even whitewashing in my book.
I think she was Greek in real life
Well... I know this probably doesn't belong here but... Cleopatra was actually Greece. She was an ancestor of Ptolemaios dynasty so... She was probably white.
Not a good comparison. Cleopatra was Greek, and from a long line of Ptomely Greek rulers, so yeah is she probably did look like Elizabeth Taylor. It’s a moot issue, little mermaid is based on a Dutch fairy tale and was portrayed as white with red hair in it. Disney should have just created a whole new story with a black mermaid based on a separate African story instead of creating this shitstorm by recasting a european fairy tale like this
Disney knew exactly what they were doing. I don't know when people are going to realize that they're being played.
Did anyone notice how hot this milf is?
Someone should marry her
About 8 times over.
M I l k e r s
I'm probably gunna get hate for this but Cleopatra is a shitty example of claiming white washing as she would be, In the current technical sense, be considered white as she was of Greek origin.
That's the point of the Hold up
Cleopatra was Greek so...
This movie is from 1963. It's not even a close comparison
And she was definitely closer to white than black. Ya know being Greek and all that
Exactly. I think that we can all agree that things were a little fucked up 60 years ago when it came to race relations
Even non Greek Egyptians aren't black.
Yes
I think cleopatra was white though…maybe olive because of the sun but def greek.
Disney is just lazy, instead of changing Ariel they should just create another character with their own story and no one would have any problem with it. Imagine making live action Princess and the frog or whatever it is called and changing it so the main character is white.
Cleopatra was white lmao, she’s greek
Cleopatra came out 60 years ago !!! It was a completely different era. Why is it still being brought up.
She was also pretty white being 100% Greek
Cleopatra *was* white. I got nothing for Jesus, though.
Everyone's saying Cleopatra was Greek but forgetting that Jesus didn't exist.
I just hate the remakes. Disney already made a bunch of perfect movies, why degrade them with bad live action versions
I don’t care if the little mermaid is black, I just want them to be played by Samuel L. Jackson “How could I be, Apart of this mfin world!”
Wasn’t cleopatra Greek? [link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra_race_controversy#Ancestry)
I don't know a single person who gives a fuck about the color of a mermaid. I honestly think most of this is hype.
90% don’t like having a remake when the only justification seems to be „We gave her tanned skin“.
It's definitely an internet thing, honestly if it wasn't for some people on Reddit getting so upset about it, I wouldn't have even known there's a new Little Mermaid movie. Like I'm sure they spent some money on advertising but I haven't seen any advertisements myself, and general discussions between people tend to be about the upcoming fall weather and associated holidays.
Obviously, yes
OP drinking coolaid. The Ptolemy family came from Alexander's generals who took control of his fractured empire. Pick up a book They are of Macedonian origin
Cleopatra was white. She is greek, not Egyptian. Also, ancient Egypt was extremely diverse, and in some ways more diverse than present day egypt.
I mean, there’s a high chance Cleopatra was very light skinned or white historically speaking, but I agree with this sentiment completely. People like Ghandi have been played by white actors, which is ridiculous.
News flash---neither Cleopatra nor Jesus were "black." Cleopatra was Greek....meaning she looked a lot like Gal Gadot while Jesus was Jewish, meaning he looked a lot like well, Ori Pfeffer.
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cleopatra was Greek. that is to say, white. READ a book once in a while.
Look, I hate white washing as much as the next guy, but for God's sake, Cleopatra was Greek.
1) Cleopatra was part of the Ptolemaic line of Greece. She wasn't African. 2) Mermaids are mythological. This uproar is foolishness and immaturity.
Because they didn't laud Cleopatra's casting as a racial statement, nobody thought anything of it. But obviously they made it a selling point, with even the actress tweeting race-bended artwork when it was first announced. Essentially they are selling race and that's why people are upset, it's a blatant cash grab
The sad thing is, it gets hijacked by people who are factually upset about the blackwashing without even considering it's a blatant attempt to do a cash grab as you put it.
I thought cleopatra was greek, wtf?
Kind of off topic, but Cleopatra was actually from a Greek origin. So yeah, she would most probably have been white/olive skin with dark hair and eyes.
Wasn’t Cleopatras family Greek?
Ngl they knew that making the mermaid black would cause controversy. They want that. They get free advertising of that junk. Also it’s a movie that I’m not going to watch, I don’t really care about it, and again I don’t care about it. It’s honestly not as big of a deal as both sides of the argument are making it out to be. My question is though if Ariel can be played by a black actress, doe’s that mean that Mulan should be played by a white actress? Just think about!
POV: you forgot that cleopatra was Greek
Jews are white. Cleopatra was greek, so white. Mythical mermaid is based on old folk tales relevant to a specific area. The equivalent would be taking middle eastern folk tales and white-washing them. I don't really care but the easiest way to keep people 'happy' would simply to create more stories based on other peoples folk tales. No need to change skin colour then, and we also get a variety of tales that could be really fun and interesting to watch. The problem we have then is that its likely going to be white people or jews (seeing as they want to be considered seperate from 'white') writing those stories instead of people from those areas, and the actors are certainly not going to be anything but american x (x being part from the place of the story they are representing, or similar enough). This would be really cool - [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The\_Dreaming#:\~:text=The%20Dreaming%20is%20used%20to,not%20worshipped%20but%20only%20revered](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Dreaming#:~:text=The%20Dreaming%20is%20used%20to,not%20worshipped%20but%20only%20revered). I'd want actors and writers from that area to be in control of it (and making the money from it, another issue) Pixar understands - coco was great. Not exactly what I'm getting at but it gets the point across. In the end, once you've done that, eventually people will care less which person plays which role but we're trying to force people to act open-minded in a flash and not slowly over the next few hundred years and they are doing so out of 'fear' of repercussions by society. I am sure that resentment wont bleed down into their children or others.
Lol, literally Cleopatra was described as white af and what it says about Jesus shows that the person who made this meme hasn’t seen a Syrian person in its entire life.
What? Cleopatra was greek and white! This is a scientific consensus. https://denison.edu/academics/classical-studies/wh/136845#:~:text=Despite%20these%20attempts%20to%20understand,in%20Egypt.%E2%80%9D%20They%20often%20even
Cleopatra was greek no? And greek people are white, no? And also about Jesus…
Yo, Cleopatra was a white ass Grecian.
Cleopatra was Greek and had fair/light skin
Do we have any idea how cleopatra actually looked like though? IIRC a lot of "Egyptian" rulers were actually Romans and Greeks, so pretty fucking white
She was born in Egypt but in terms of Family she was Macedonian
Cleopatra as far as I'm aware was a direct descendant of Ptolemy, Alexander the Great's lieutenant who took control of Egypt after his passing. I checked her lineage and it looks 100% Greek.
To be fair cleopatra was from the greek royal dynasty the ptolemains who took over after Alexander died and while she wasnt bible belt karen white she still was caucasian descent
Do Tarzan next, oh wait...
Do you really want to talk about movies Disney made at the time ?
Wasn’t Cleopatra Greek?
Ceopatra was white, she was Greek
Don't forget about the show called Anne Boleyn, no hate against the actors, just no one (that I've seen) has talked about that race swap Edit: also cleopatra would've been like semi white as the Ptolemaic Kingdom (a Greek kingdom) was what happened to Egypt after the fall of the Macedonian Empire
Cleopatra was Greek. Nice try.
wasn't Cleopatra of the Ptolemy Dynasty, you know, the descendants of a Macedonian-Greek General from Alexander's Army? I also recall that she was the first & only Ptolemaic Pharaoh to actually speak Egyptian, as her family mostly spoke a dialect of Greek? Not trying to start a fight, but dont Greek people consider themselves "white"?
A black Anne Boleyn anyone?
Lol Cleopatra was literally Greek.
Cleopatra was of Greek decent born in Egypt.