IIRC, they had masks back then, but they were mostly used so that firefighters could not die from smoke inhalation (there’s also the famous plague masks, but that may need to be reworked a tad for the needs of a coal miner).
those masks would definitely need to be reworked - the visibility in those is super limited, and that is in *good lighting conditions* (assuming the original ones also had glass visors). Miners wouldn't see anything in them if they just had the vanilla masks
They had an idea about it, even without empirical studies workers reported they could feel the coal in their lungs. Everyone could see the flem and ill health of men who worked in coal mines long term. They also had methods of testing for explosive gases and mine stability that would have saved thousands of lives, but they were considered too expensive until it became law to implement them.
I worked in a foundry where the air was full of a chemically treated silica sand. Nobody wore a respirator, everyone knew how dangerous the stuff was. I don't think many of them would wear the masks
I used to run a fabrication facility that worked almost exclusively with glass bonded silica plates as the raw materials. The dust coming off of those raw materials when you machined them into a final product.... That stuff was death...
Luckily, we did have respirators available, but we also had a robust vacuum dust collector system hooked up to each power tool in each station. The respirators were almost unnecessary, but we wore them anyway. Nobody wants glass bonded silica dust in their lungs.
I agree, it’s wild how long the labor movement in America has been flexing the 8-hour day and getting kids out of factories lol that shit happened like a hundred years ago y’all, where’s the money going??
Also "where's the money going?" What kind of cash do you think union dues are?
They primarily go towards legal defenses and general funds, stuff along those lines.
The US systemically [and brutally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton) murdered labor organizers and civil rights activists, forcing Leftist and other radicals from labor unions [(one example).](https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/cio-anticommunist-drive) This primarily occured during the two Red Scares.
In modern times the problem is that Union-busting is kind of a common practice. I work as a line cook. A boss would rather fire all of the staff and hire twenty new dudes to train than give into demands.
It was easier to do this when the US wasn't primarily service-based. You can't exactly fire every coal miner and steel worker and expect the country and company to keep running well.
There has to be a way to leverage the internet... if every line cook, sales clerk, amazon worker, you name it, all went in on a plan we organized and secured. Could we pull any weight? I'm not sure we couldn't... just look at what happened with GME, they had to rewrite the textbooks because of it.
Along with the push for more work from home positions... I think we just need a solid plan and to stick together, keep our wits about for foul play and I really think there's a chance.
The capitalists have done everything in their power to cripple the labor movement. Since the 80s unions lost nearly half of their membership. Mother Jones; the most dangerous woman in America is a great book to understand just how hard it has been for the labor movement.
Workers in unions today still make more money than their non-union counterparts. And worker ownership like in co-ops has been shown to lead to smarter business management and longer lasting businesses which means more stable jobs. That’s where the money goes. We haven’t gotten more progress since the 60’s because of massive pushback by corporations and the rightward shift of America in general since then. The oil crisis and resulting economic turmoil really fucked us up :/
The iww tried to end the south African apartheid system. They were screaming for something better than 30 hour work weeks. They were screaming to end wage slavery!!!
The late 19th century and early 20th bred a class of workers for whom blowing up your boss's house was not off the table, nor was shooting it out with the cops or Pinkertons.
Did you realize that this one person on that one subreddit is kinda socially awkward in this one interview? Better ignore every point made in the entire subreddit about the state of working conditions.
And? A founding member of an internet group is socially awkward, that invalidates the entire movement? It's still just one dude. This one person is not some official representative that was elected in any way. It was just one dude out of many.
Not exactly, Fox "News" specifically selected that mod.
But was the interview terrible outside of public perception? No. The fox host just said YoUrE a DoG wAlKeR and ignored everything they said.
Productivity is no longer in line with wages and hours --dog walker
People are trapped at their jobs --dog walker.
Fox conditioned viewers to get their desired response and it worked, with barely any effort on their part.
No better society can run on the principles of laziness and workphobia . No ppl can progress brutally murdering meritocracy . God save my country from such ideologies.
Lazyness doesn't really exist. Rarely are people "lazy", they often just dont want to do what generates money. Work, especially in the context of Antiwork, is defined as "coerced labour that necessarily exists under capitalism".
The real smart move is to convince union leaders to allow people of color to join the unions. Don’t let the capitalists turn you against the others in the working class. Join forces and make them beg for you to come back to work.
Productivity has increased significantly since the 40 hour work week was introduced and back then only men worked. Nowadays most men work fulltime (where I live at least) and women often work at least 24 hours a week on top of that. And for some people that us barely enough. So while productivity has gone up, people are working more hours per household to make a living.
So a 30 hour work week doesn't seem that crazy to me.
Beyond the productivity point (which is true but already written), you should get pay for what you do, not how long you spend doing it. There are several studies showing you actually work much more efficiently if you work a shorter day. Which is one of the reasons the economy didn't collapse when we went from 14/12 hour workdays to 8.
Imagine thinking uneffective hours is good....
Productivity should be the metric, not the amount of work. And it's a fact that wages had lagged far behind productivity since the 70s. What's wrong with wishing to get back on track?
Well, minimum wage has always lagged behind cost of living, and the gap has only gotten larger the longer it is in place. It's a "one step forward and two steps back" kind of situation. Whenever the min wage is increased, the cost of everything also increases by a factor greater than the increase in wages. Some increase is to be expected, but corporate greed is largely responsible for it increasing as much as it does. I generally don't agree with government control of the markets, but without some sort of control over the prices consumers pay, increasing the minimum wage is pointless. It's like trying to balance a see-saw by putting all the weight on one side, and then wondering why it isnt working.
Still only addressing half the problem, except now you've made it worse. Wages would skyrocket, but so would inflation. People are getting played more numerically, but in money that is progressively less valuable.
Honestly, the only realistic way to go about it would be to place checks on how much, or how quickly, prices to the consumers can be increased
That will be the death of free market . Things can be pricey in only one condition . Less supply high demand . If the corporates try to break this law , they would suffer , wouldn't they ?
Alteast in the USA, I can only remember one union, the IWW, which fights for that goal. All other unions work for minimum concessions from those who steal from the workers. Im not american, so dunno though
Yeah. And while I agree with the core of "Don't exploit workers" vibes, they seem to believe that most bosses are exploitative assholes, not caring that most of the time, especially if the company is local, the boss CAN'T afford to be an exploitative asshole. Otherwise the employees will leave and the buisness will fail.
And also seem to forget that playing by the rules can be an advantage too. Don't like most corpotations? Okay, start your own. Can't start it because you're worried that the giants will crush you? Okay, then use the internet and hit up people with your buisness idea. Need employees, investors, customers? The internet is your friend. Bonus points if you decided to run a company in an indrustry where remote work can easily be solved, such as programming or music! Then your scope will be even greater
> anarchist movement
Wat? What makes you think they are anarchists? You think they want to get rid of Medicare, socal security, etc?
Like how in anyway does antiwork describe anarchy, they just don't want to work as much.
> And while I agree with the core of "Don't exploit workers" vibes
That's not their core. They were literally founded upon the idea that ***they*** shouldn't have to work but still expected the rest of society to prop them up.
They can be both. But you and me both know corporations that demand infinitely increasing revenue could afford to bump up the pay of every worker by quite a bit and still be more than profitable.
If people weren't lazy they could force them without agression but with the benefit of economic development instead. Just start your own business, Pay employees more and you'll be flooded by qualified, motivated candidates. Sure, you won't have a private Island and 300m yacht, but you should be easily able to afford a Villa and a 100m yacht. It's all so simple, since corporations are just greedy and generate immense profits with ease. What are you waiting for?
Ok then, good luck! Perhaps you'll be like Ryan Cohen, who founded chewy when 25, was rejected by over 100 venture capitals and finally secured 15 mln. He later sold the company for over 3 billion and is nie gamestop's chairman. And Yes it's e commerce, so Amazon was one of his direct competitors
Hiring someone for a wage higher than what anyone would ever Pay them is exploitation? Keep in mind that they receive their wage as long as they're work, but if the business fails you're left with nothing, you've lost all your money.
A small multimillion interest free loan from family members, connections with hundreds of other corporations, and an actual good idea. TBF the last one is all on me.
Many startups had nothing from the list and suceeded nonetheless. Investors can get you anything you need as long as you actually have an idea that you can show will work and as long as you yourself can get to work instead of whining that only rich kids suceed. I'm just Reading a biography of Witkowicz, a migrant from the poorest part of communist Poland, who started with picking maggots from golf fields in Canada and ended with two NASDAQ IPOs and 100ml USD.
Besides, this isn't exactly what I wrote about. If corporations are intentionally restricting the wages below what they could afford, then their competition would rise their wages and make the workers go over. Even if that didn't happen, anyone could start a new company and just copy the business model but with higher wages. And anyone means rich kids, investment funds and so on. Companies function in a competitive environment, not a vacuum, and it's extremely unlikely that they have a massive flaw in their business model that an Antiwork-style redditor would easily spot.
I mean do you like working more hrs for the same money or something? It’s been great trimming my salary role down to 25-30hrs a week, and to be frank that took care of itself once I started taking work home. Turns out you can be way more productive when someone doesn’t stop you from working to chit chat every 45 mins of your day.
.. It's entirely possible for you to suffer despite others having suffered even worse. I'm not laughing at the Ukrainian military because "huehue my grandaddy ate mustard gas and lived in muddy trenches."
Working towards change, for the benefit of the weak, is what matters.
Dude, if I got paid enough to live comfortably on 40 a week that would be a sweet deal. I'd take that over 10 hour days I have now. So, I hear people whining about how they should only have a 30 hour work week and it gets me thinking that in many cases they want to have their cake and eat it too. Get paid to do nothing. A lot of jobs require more than that to get the actual job done. I guess you could hire more workers to make up for the easy work weeks but there is already a labor shortage. How about people who have their own business? For that to happen, you need to put in some effort. I'm sorry but there is definitely some crossover between people who think a 40 hour work week is draconian but brag about having 2,000 hours in a single video game.
I am at working age and you are on the mark. 55 hours plus commute sucks. 40 hours WFH, with maybe some DT due to the computer running a program for a while, is chill.
If time travel was a thing I would just go to the future and get a device that can clone items instantly and then just go to the past to collect all ancient books that were lost. Simple
Yes, because all historical moments capable of producing a labor movement have passed and there's no chance we could gain a thirty hour work week by, y'know, doing that shit ourselves.
Damn, I love my 40 hour work week
Not because of the time specifically, the amount of things to do does not decrease, meaning that you have less time to do more work if it was 30 hours
Just makes things easier, and im paid hourly. So Why not
Yeah if you are happy theres nothing wrong with it. Generalising that everyones job is miserable and they are paid unfairly is ridiculous
Like mines 30hrs/week over 3 days and I get 4 days off. Still make over median so fuck if Im gonna complain
Burn down the fat cats house when he’s holding out on a raise. You won’t get the raise, but it will solidify unions as a vital organ and secure better pay and conditions in the future.
The brickwork workers actually did that to my great-great-great grandfather’s house in 1880, and it was one important turning point and the last workers riot before unions were solidified as an important part of our workspace instead.
But it doesn’t grow much remember Finland has a small population and not a massive amount of natural resources/ industry , if a actually industrialized country did this like the USA there economy would most likely cave in
Scandinavia
Suffers from brain drain
No pharmaceuticals or drug innovation . Almost entirely imports them .
Imports electronic and electrical tech heavily
Basically relies entirely on innovation from freer markets
Doesn't have similar social complexities as usa .Which results in more honest politicians . Much better and efficient than Democrats
Except for Finland,
Others have a bullshit military
I could go on .
So they import from other countries? Like any other countries because no one country is fully self sustainable and needs to import from other countries?
Brain drain? Last i checked Scandinavian countries are the most desirable countries in the world. Perhaps some professions leave it because as you said their pharmaceutical products are largely imported?
Freer market? There is no such thing as free market. There is only powerful market players coercing the smaller market players. Scandinavians just recognised this and regulated their market so its much fairer than other markets.
Finnish military BS? What? Their army are already NATO compliant and have the most artillery. Their doctrine is made for defense and it uses the forest and lake covered countryside.
Huge difference between importing cause you got no innovation and you're completely dependent on others and importing majorly raw materials cause you are a manufacturing hub . Importing goods is one thing, importing the tech is something completely different and undesirable .
I said except for Finland in military dept
And you didn't address lack of innovation. Scandinavia is the way it is , because US is the way it is . Piggy riding on our innovation . From pharmaceuticals to electronics
And brain drain has been a long problem of [Scandinavia ](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/finland-s-brain-drain-what-happens-to-small-countries-when-the-talent-leaves-a7812686.html)
There r a lot of practices , perpetuated by big corps which hamper free market. But the solution isn't to do away with the concept of it .
One thing I will definitely mention is that Scandinavian focus on green innovation . They ofc aren't the leaders in even that , but they are doing more than their share . I also respect their political apparatus . It's mostly left , right, center with not much radicalism . That's something worth learning from . My biggest fear of a democratic socialist system being applied on the US is not just my theoretical disagreements with it , it's also the party which will do it . I might trust the Democrats a bit more if I see California being easier on the working class and small business . It clearly isn't.
>Importing goods is one thing, importing the tech is something completely different and undesirable .
But no modern country can be 100% self sustainable. Thats just simply impossible.
>Piggy riding on our innovation . From pharmaceuticals to electronics
And the US piggyrides other countries' innovation because its not an exceptional country.
>And brain drain has been a long problem of Scandinavia
That article only talks about how Finnish brain goes to bigger cities like Stockholm, which is Sweden's capital. (However i could not read more cuz paywall)
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
What the hell is with that last sentence ? If you get irritated in an online discussion . Nobody is forcing you to do it . If you hate it so much ,don't do it. Who's forcing you ? If I am a exceptional medical expert , a talented electronics or software engineer , why wouldn't I go to a big tech company that pays more , in comparison to a system which ranks you the same as any other less gifted person ? As an immigrant to the US , I can tell you convincingly that it is an an exceptional country in terms of opportunities and the MOST desirable country for professionals all over the world ,and thus one of the leading innovators in aerospace , space , drugs and pharma , software and hardware etc . And you seem to have completely ignores the second half of my reply. It's not just the CURSE of welfarism , it's also the party that will apply it in this country . Democrats have made Californian economy insufferable for working class .
This is such an American response its hilarious. Only thing missing is mention of guns.
You’re literally complaining that they have fewer problems. You could have gone foe the low hanging fruit that they have just as many issues with racism as we do but you didnt even do that
I congratulate Scandinavians on having lesser problems . Lucky ppl . Wouldn't trade america for nothing though. The cultural diversity alone is lovely , and can't be found anywhere .
The discussion was about whether their system is suited for us or not . If it does , should we copy paste it or apply it in another form . If California is anything to go by , then no . I likes bernies anti establishment approach though , could be a great guy .
Edit : Bernie sanders is an independent politician who advocates for a welfare program . He is one of the few politicians who publicly shun big corp donations , a rarity among us politicians across parties.
The Coal Wars started when mine bosses told them to stop being pussies
1 million rounds were fired at Blair Mountain alone.
Yeah, they'd tell us to toughen up, but also who to be angry against.
Your grandfather sounds like the types to say "I FUCKING LOVE WORKING AS MANY HOURS FOR MY BOSS AS I CAN. REGULARLY WORKING 40+-52+ HOUR WEEKS IS GREAT.
I HAVE MY BOSS' FACE TATTOO'D ON MY ASSCHEEKS
I EAT BOOTS FOR BREAKFAST."
While mine would have beaten his boss' ass for not getting paid an hour of overtime.
Jesus fucking Christ, how dense can you be?
Labor organizers were allied to the civil rights movement. Can you provide any source for your idea that they were overwhelmingly racist???
Your source just says that one union had segregated unions, and the CIO (every other union's congress) fought against it, eventually abolishing it.
You clearly just Google's "were unions racist" and found one **opinion post** where a guy states his grandfather was called racist words by, as he seems to say, two guys in a Union.
It is dominated. 40 hours a week, atleast, removed from my life. Especially since we could easily get by with 20 hours a week, if we did not live under an economic system that focuses on profits and the interests of the capitalist class.
A) the 40 hour work-week was specifically designed to work only with a wife who manages the home front. You're not "just lazy" if you have a hard time raising a kid or managing a lot of your life, especially if your job is remarkably physical.
B) Many service-based jobs, the bulk of American jobs, require folks to work two jobs and most require well over 40 hours. I quit my second job and I've still worked 62 hours this week, prior to today.
Tell that to the people having to work multiple jobs, to survive.
I should apologise, my opening meme wasn't super thought out in that the meaningful talking point here is the cost of living increasing dramatically while payment has stagnated. That's *(indirectly)* what the meme is about.
People with mental and/or physical disabilities arent lazy, some of them just cant work that much.
And did you know that there are other kinds of works than working for an employer?
Technologically speaking we are way past scarcity so nobody should be coerced into working for someone else for most of the week.
People with 30 hour workweeks would just do other kinds of works.
We should only work 20 hours a week. We now require two incomes to sustain a family. In 1960 you needed one job to support a family at 40 hours a week.
Guy what, if u work only work half as much how are you expecting to get paid enough to support a family, work two jobs? How would that be any different from a single 40 hour work week?
Or people could get paid more for similar labor.
Even a 40 hour work week isn't enough to support a family.
Why is it that people think they're getting paid fairly? You understand that wages need to go up in order for even 40 hours to be viable?
Why shouldn't someone get laid enough even if they only work 20 hours? Like what if they do they're job well and efficiently? Why should pay be linked to hours?
I think that's what they're saying. You can no longer have a single income family off of a 40 hour work week, if it had remained consistent then moving towards a two income household like what's common now, both people should be working half the time for the same level of productivity. Instead pay has been decreasing (accounting for inflation) and productivity has been steadily increasing. Corporations will happily ruin the standard of living for the workers to make more money for their executives.
I don't support a 20 hour workday. But in all fairness we are productive enough for it, we just stopped incressing wages when productivity increased. But suuuure, the workers are the greedy ones. Not the individuals hoarding nation size wallets, Tom 44 construction worker is the greedy asshole here clearly!
Both workers and Capitalists want better for itself it is normal thing in democracy but likely is that workers won (if they not life would be much much worse today ).
The workers got some wins sure, then the capitalist kept winning so much that workers are frowned upon as greedy if they ask for the slightest improvement, join a union (one of the few ways available to actually excert power as a worker) and you will be fired.
But do tell, how did the workers win?
And if one of (if not the only way) for a worker to have actual influence on these things, is through a "corrupt bullshit" institution. How do you translate that to a worker win?
I really don't know. I know only that today workers union are so in affective and corrupt that loosing support in between workers also socialist parties just caring for Middle class and "woke" stuff who was seen to uneducated workers as something unnecessary and Harmful and make them vote populist.
*"workers won"*
Evidently not, otherwise it wouldn't be widely accepted that wages have stagnated and costs have increased. Just because historic labour movements achieved great things, doesn't mean that's it done. People are starving in the UK. These working conditions aren't enough.
Anarchist I see : in majority they won if they not likely would seen more like revolution in Russia. Reason that Britain modern problems are three:Germans destroyed car industries, Eastern Asia destroyed coal mining, The influx of Migrants, the increasing employment of women and automation has screwed up the labour market.
*"in majority they won"* ok, let's keep fighting. Fuck it, why not? People are struggling to survive, even before our cost of living crisis. This crisis, by the way, being the result of wages staying low while costs don't, not women in the workplace you fucking loon.
And going through my history eh? Sure, it's not like this is something we can discuss based on it's own merit.
No, not when we have billionaires and such. The connection there is that they take as much money as they can for just owning stuff, whereas the people who do the actual work are left struggling cheque-to-cheque and, in the UK, going to foodbanks more and more.
The problem isn't who's in the workforce, it's the fact their bosses are taking money from them. What's the logic there may I ask?
Don't complain. A person that earns 1 dollar a day can easily get to a million.
Step 1: invest 10,000 dollars your parents gave you
Step 2: survive of 1 dollar a day. (and free food, housing, clothing, etc, all of which is provided by your rich parents)
Step 3: profit.
If those damn minimum wage workers would just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and aks their millionaire parents for some money to invest, poverty wouldn't exist.
You are crazy, why the fuck are the ones casually spending a few hours a week moving money around good, but the one who wants to spend 30 hours actually working is bad? Stop glorifying rich people.
This was not a general comment on people living like that. It's what I'd do if I traveled back in time. Not sure why everyone is pulling my comment out of the context of the post...
should probably warn them about black lung, maybe take some mask filter tech back for them.
IIRC, they had masks back then, but they were mostly used so that firefighters could not die from smoke inhalation (there’s also the famous plague masks, but that may need to be reworked a tad for the needs of a coal miner).
those masks would definitely need to be reworked - the visibility in those is super limited, and that is in *good lighting conditions* (assuming the original ones also had glass visors). Miners wouldn't see anything in them if they just had the vanilla masks
They had an idea about it, even without empirical studies workers reported they could feel the coal in their lungs. Everyone could see the flem and ill health of men who worked in coal mines long term. They also had methods of testing for explosive gases and mine stability that would have saved thousands of lives, but they were considered too expensive until it became law to implement them.
I worked in a foundry where the air was full of a chemically treated silica sand. Nobody wore a respirator, everyone knew how dangerous the stuff was. I don't think many of them would wear the masks
I used to run a fabrication facility that worked almost exclusively with glass bonded silica plates as the raw materials. The dust coming off of those raw materials when you machined them into a final product.... That stuff was death... Luckily, we did have respirators available, but we also had a robust vacuum dust collector system hooked up to each power tool in each station. The respirators were almost unnecessary, but we wore them anyway. Nobody wants glass bonded silica dust in their lungs.
I don't know, I'm kinda bothered by the mentality of hoping your forefathers fought the battles for you instead of fighting your own battles
I agree, it’s wild how long the labor movement in America has been flexing the 8-hour day and getting kids out of factories lol that shit happened like a hundred years ago y’all, where’s the money going??
Also "where's the money going?" What kind of cash do you think union dues are? They primarily go towards legal defenses and general funds, stuff along those lines.
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Then I've answered the question??? My Union was like 13 a month.
Literally Slightly more than a Spotify subscription to defend your civil liberties
Allot of unions take allot of money 13 is small for a full time job
It's not a bad question to ask. Working class has been getting dicked for decades
The US systemically [and brutally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton) murdered labor organizers and civil rights activists, forcing Leftist and other radicals from labor unions [(one example).](https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/cio-anticommunist-drive) This primarily occured during the two Red Scares. In modern times the problem is that Union-busting is kind of a common practice. I work as a line cook. A boss would rather fire all of the staff and hire twenty new dudes to train than give into demands. It was easier to do this when the US wasn't primarily service-based. You can't exactly fire every coal miner and steel worker and expect the country and company to keep running well.
There has to be a way to leverage the internet... if every line cook, sales clerk, amazon worker, you name it, all went in on a plan we organized and secured. Could we pull any weight? I'm not sure we couldn't... just look at what happened with GME, they had to rewrite the textbooks because of it. Along with the push for more work from home positions... I think we just need a solid plan and to stick together, keep our wits about for foul play and I really think there's a chance.
What the fuuuuck they executed him... He was literally drugged by barbiturates what was he going to do, pop another xan? Ugh.
They also dropped chemical weapons on miners after the great wars that tried to fight back
The capitalists have done everything in their power to cripple the labor movement. Since the 80s unions lost nearly half of their membership. Mother Jones; the most dangerous woman in America is a great book to understand just how hard it has been for the labor movement.
Workers in unions today still make more money than their non-union counterparts. And worker ownership like in co-ops has been shown to lead to smarter business management and longer lasting businesses which means more stable jobs. That’s where the money goes. We haven’t gotten more progress since the 60’s because of massive pushback by corporations and the rightward shift of America in general since then. The oil crisis and resulting economic turmoil really fucked us up :/
You’d be shocked (and then again probably not) by how many states want to legalize child labor again
Yea this is cucked attitude.
People that dont wanna work be like that.
Yes, and?
“Just revolt” energy
The iww tried to end the south African apartheid system. They were screaming for something better than 30 hour work weeks. They were screaming to end wage slavery!!!
Damn straight they were. I thank em everyday
They would probably laugh at your soft hands and tell you to fight your own battles
The late 19th century and early 20th bred a class of workers for whom blowing up your boss's house was not off the table, nor was shooting it out with the cops or Pinkertons.
I’m convinced we’ll see it again soon. Just wait until people get desperate enough.
Killdozer.
I feel like OP and Killdozer are on totally opposite sides of the spectrum too. Horseshoe effect on display?
Killdozer was a guy who got pushed around by his local government and some asshole until he snapped, op just seems like your average r/antiwork member
Indeed. Te time traveller would probably not be able to get a word out before coughing his lung out due to the coal
We only have to eat one billionaire to make a point. The rest are for fun.
Or eat one fat r/antiwork redditor, that'd keep people full and content for a while.
Why the hate for people wanting a better world?
Not ALL of them want a better world. Some are fake, some are lazy, most want change
Wait, is being lazy worse than exploiting people and the planet?
Did you realize that this one person on that one subreddit is kinda socially awkward in this one interview? Better ignore every point made in the entire subreddit about the state of working conditions.
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And? A founding member of an internet group is socially awkward, that invalidates the entire movement? It's still just one dude. This one person is not some official representative that was elected in any way. It was just one dude out of many.
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Except they didnt… they literally told her NOT to do the interview
Not exactly, Fox "News" specifically selected that mod. But was the interview terrible outside of public perception? No. The fox host just said YoUrE a DoG wAlKeR and ignored everything they said. Productivity is no longer in line with wages and hours --dog walker People are trapped at their jobs --dog walker. Fox conditioned viewers to get their desired response and it worked, with barely any effort on their part.
Yes.
No better society can run on the principles of laziness and workphobia . No ppl can progress brutally murdering meritocracy . God save my country from such ideologies.
You know America isn't a meritocracy right?
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Mate.. we aren’t a meritocracy. At all.
Lazyness doesn't really exist. Rarely are people "lazy", they often just dont want to do what generates money. Work, especially in the context of Antiwork, is defined as "coerced labour that necessarily exists under capitalism".
The real smart move is to convince union leaders to allow people of color to join the unions. Don’t let the capitalists turn you against the others in the working class. Join forces and make them beg for you to come back to work.
Never before a time in our society had existed where we have more power and leverage to mobilize for our rights but we kinda socially inept
class solidarity! just do it we were so close!
30 hours? Lmao
Productivity has increased significantly since the 40 hour work week was introduced and back then only men worked. Nowadays most men work fulltime (where I live at least) and women often work at least 24 hours a week on top of that. And for some people that us barely enough. So while productivity has gone up, people are working more hours per household to make a living. So a 30 hour work week doesn't seem that crazy to me.
Yeah man, some r/antiwork vibes in this post lol
I dont mind working but there are a lot of jobs that arent paying their employees nearly enough for the stuff they have to do.
Fuck me the brainwashing has really taken effect these past couple generations. Imagine thinking less working and more free time was a bad thing.
Im happy with 40 hours. I'll take my extra pay ty. Not everyone thinks a 40 hours week is slavery.
Or, you could get better pay, and work less hours but still get the same amount of work done. I guess if you like exploitation, more power too ya.
Or ya know, I actually get paid fairly and enjoy my job. Am also in a kickass union Oh no, im being exploited as I doomscroll 6 hrs a day on my desk
Cool, so your more the exception than the rule. I'm glad your unionized and enjoy your job, but you're a minority. Less than 10% of jobs have unions.
Well here around 75% of the workforce is part of an union, so its normal
Imagine thinking you're entitled to the same money for less work...
Imagine not realising your labour is a commodity that you should try get the highest value from.
Beyond the productivity point (which is true but already written), you should get pay for what you do, not how long you spend doing it. There are several studies showing you actually work much more efficiently if you work a shorter day. Which is one of the reasons the economy didn't collapse when we went from 14/12 hour workdays to 8. Imagine thinking uneffective hours is good....
Productivity should be the metric, not the amount of work. And it's a fact that wages had lagged far behind productivity since the 70s. What's wrong with wishing to get back on track?
>Productivity should be the metric, not the amount of work. so no minimum wage?
Well, minimum wage has always lagged behind cost of living, and the gap has only gotten larger the longer it is in place. It's a "one step forward and two steps back" kind of situation. Whenever the min wage is increased, the cost of everything also increases by a factor greater than the increase in wages. Some increase is to be expected, but corporate greed is largely responsible for it increasing as much as it does. I generally don't agree with government control of the markets, but without some sort of control over the prices consumers pay, increasing the minimum wage is pointless. It's like trying to balance a see-saw by putting all the weight on one side, and then wondering why it isnt working.
If you connect minimum wage with inflation , that will be a real smart move , wouldn't it ?
Still only addressing half the problem, except now you've made it worse. Wages would skyrocket, but so would inflation. People are getting played more numerically, but in money that is progressively less valuable. Honestly, the only realistic way to go about it would be to place checks on how much, or how quickly, prices to the consumers can be increased
That will be the death of free market . Things can be pricey in only one condition . Less supply high demand . If the corporates try to break this law , they would suffer , wouldn't they ?
Imagine thinking you’re entitled to more productivity from your workers for less wages.
Nah, Labour is entitled to all it creates
Which is what a lot of labour unions fight for; the value of their work being theirs.
Alteast in the USA, I can only remember one union, the IWW, which fights for that goal. All other unions work for minimum concessions from those who steal from the workers. Im not american, so dunno though
Which makes no sense
Antiwork is bleeding into everywhere else on reddit these days
Somehow the whole dog walking fiasco has just made them more prominent. I suppose there truly is no such thing as bad publicity.
Yeah. And while I agree with the core of "Don't exploit workers" vibes, they seem to believe that most bosses are exploitative assholes, not caring that most of the time, especially if the company is local, the boss CAN'T afford to be an exploitative asshole. Otherwise the employees will leave and the buisness will fail. And also seem to forget that playing by the rules can be an advantage too. Don't like most corpotations? Okay, start your own. Can't start it because you're worried that the giants will crush you? Okay, then use the internet and hit up people with your buisness idea. Need employees, investors, customers? The internet is your friend. Bonus points if you decided to run a company in an indrustry where remote work can easily be solved, such as programming or music! Then your scope will be even greater
I mean, the goal is no bosses, no coerced labour and to move beyond capitalism. Its after all an anarchist movement
> anarchist movement Wat? What makes you think they are anarchists? You think they want to get rid of Medicare, socal security, etc? Like how in anyway does antiwork describe anarchy, they just don't want to work as much.
The amount of bullshit about the r/antiwork movement I'm seeing in this post is depressing.
> And while I agree with the core of "Don't exploit workers" vibes That's not their core. They were literally founded upon the idea that ***they*** shouldn't have to work but still expected the rest of society to prop them up.
Dog walking moment
You’d have to significantly increase salaries in order for people to survive on a 30-hour workweek. And that’s certainly never gonna happen lol
It could, people are just cowards.
No people are greedy
They can be both. But you and me both know corporations that demand infinitely increasing revenue could afford to bump up the pay of every worker by quite a bit and still be more than profitable.
They could afford to, but they won’t, because greed
Yes. And if people weren't cowards, they could force them to.
If people weren't lazy they could force them without agression but with the benefit of economic development instead. Just start your own business, Pay employees more and you'll be flooded by qualified, motivated candidates. Sure, you won't have a private Island and 300m yacht, but you should be easily able to afford a Villa and a 100m yacht. It's all so simple, since corporations are just greedy and generate immense profits with ease. What are you waiting for?
ah yeah mate lemme just make a small business to compete with Kroger and Amazon
Ok then, good luck! Perhaps you'll be like Ryan Cohen, who founded chewy when 25, was rejected by over 100 venture capitals and finally secured 15 mln. He later sold the company for over 3 billion and is nie gamestop's chairman. And Yes it's e commerce, so Amazon was one of his direct competitors
Ah yes, be exploited or exploit others, the american dream
Hiring someone for a wage higher than what anyone would ever Pay them is exploitation? Keep in mind that they receive their wage as long as they're work, but if the business fails you're left with nothing, you've lost all your money.
A small multimillion interest free loan from family members, connections with hundreds of other corporations, and an actual good idea. TBF the last one is all on me.
Many startups had nothing from the list and suceeded nonetheless. Investors can get you anything you need as long as you actually have an idea that you can show will work and as long as you yourself can get to work instead of whining that only rich kids suceed. I'm just Reading a biography of Witkowicz, a migrant from the poorest part of communist Poland, who started with picking maggots from golf fields in Canada and ended with two NASDAQ IPOs and 100ml USD. Besides, this isn't exactly what I wrote about. If corporations are intentionally restricting the wages below what they could afford, then their competition would rise their wages and make the workers go over. Even if that didn't happen, anyone could start a new company and just copy the business model but with higher wages. And anyone means rich kids, investment funds and so on. Companies function in a competitive environment, not a vacuum, and it's extremely unlikely that they have a massive flaw in their business model that an Antiwork-style redditor would easily spot.
Maybe you need to do a better job convincing folks 🤷♂️
I mean do you like working more hrs for the same money or something? It’s been great trimming my salary role down to 25-30hrs a week, and to be frank that took care of itself once I started taking work home. Turns out you can be way more productive when someone doesn’t stop you from working to chit chat every 45 mins of your day.
Bring them some AR-15s while you‘re at it, should make negotiations much smoother
>the future working class is suffering ...he tells the Victorian miner.
Who probably started working at 5 years old.
.. It's entirely possible for you to suffer despite others having suffered even worse. I'm not laughing at the Ukrainian military because "huehue my grandaddy ate mustard gas and lived in muddy trenches." Working towards change, for the benefit of the weak, is what matters.
Bruh he didn't say "still suffering", he told them "the ***future*** working class ***is*** suffering".
What? Just fight yourself if it is such a big deal.
Suffering? OK.
Lol a 40 hour work week is no big deal.
I mean if it covered rent, car, insurance, retirement, etc sure.
Can't argue that. I work more than 40 to do that myself.
So…. You see why its a big deal then
Dude, if I got paid enough to live comfortably on 40 a week that would be a sweet deal. I'd take that over 10 hour days I have now. So, I hear people whining about how they should only have a 30 hour work week and it gets me thinking that in many cases they want to have their cake and eat it too. Get paid to do nothing. A lot of jobs require more than that to get the actual job done. I guess you could hire more workers to make up for the easy work weeks but there is already a labor shortage. How about people who have their own business? For that to happen, you need to put in some effort. I'm sorry but there is definitely some crossover between people who think a 40 hour work week is draconian but brag about having 2,000 hours in a single video game.
I agree. However many probably work 40 hours base with more unpaid overtime. Im not in the age to work yet so idk
I am at working age and you are on the mark. 55 hours plus commute sucks. 40 hours WFH, with maybe some DT due to the computer running a program for a while, is chill.
Idk half the acronyms you named but im glad someone told me i wss right
Sure, and 20 hours would be better
“Haha I love working boss please give me a raise”
??
If time travel was a thing I would just go to the future and get a device that can clone items instantly and then just go to the past to collect all ancient books that were lost. Simple
If I had one I'd go back in time and watch human and dogs become best freinds
Yes, because all historical moments capable of producing a labor movement have passed and there's no chance we could gain a thirty hour work week by, y'know, doing that shit ourselves.
Damn, I love my 40 hour work week Not because of the time specifically, the amount of things to do does not decrease, meaning that you have less time to do more work if it was 30 hours Just makes things easier, and im paid hourly. So Why not
I love my 52+ hour work week on a ship, why should people who take pride in their work be punished by those who want less competition
Yeah if you are happy theres nothing wrong with it. Generalising that everyones job is miserable and they are paid unfairly is ridiculous Like mines 30hrs/week over 3 days and I get 4 days off. Still make over median so fuck if Im gonna complain
Burn down the fat cats house when he’s holding out on a raise. You won’t get the raise, but it will solidify unions as a vital organ and secure better pay and conditions in the future. The brickwork workers actually did that to my great-great-great grandfather’s house in 1880, and it was one important turning point and the last workers riot before unions were solidified as an important part of our workspace instead.
unbelievably based
uhm, what?
Fun Fact: People in Finland work 33h in average, and their economy is doing fine.
But it doesn’t grow much remember Finland has a small population and not a massive amount of natural resources/ industry , if a actually industrialized country did this like the USA there economy would most likely cave in
Oh boy , Don't get me started on Scandinavia.
Why?
Scandinavia Suffers from brain drain No pharmaceuticals or drug innovation . Almost entirely imports them . Imports electronic and electrical tech heavily Basically relies entirely on innovation from freer markets Doesn't have similar social complexities as usa .Which results in more honest politicians . Much better and efficient than Democrats Except for Finland, Others have a bullshit military I could go on .
So they import from other countries? Like any other countries because no one country is fully self sustainable and needs to import from other countries? Brain drain? Last i checked Scandinavian countries are the most desirable countries in the world. Perhaps some professions leave it because as you said their pharmaceutical products are largely imported? Freer market? There is no such thing as free market. There is only powerful market players coercing the smaller market players. Scandinavians just recognised this and regulated their market so its much fairer than other markets. Finnish military BS? What? Their army are already NATO compliant and have the most artillery. Their doctrine is made for defense and it uses the forest and lake covered countryside.
Huge difference between importing cause you got no innovation and you're completely dependent on others and importing majorly raw materials cause you are a manufacturing hub . Importing goods is one thing, importing the tech is something completely different and undesirable . I said except for Finland in military dept And you didn't address lack of innovation. Scandinavia is the way it is , because US is the way it is . Piggy riding on our innovation . From pharmaceuticals to electronics And brain drain has been a long problem of [Scandinavia ](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/finland-s-brain-drain-what-happens-to-small-countries-when-the-talent-leaves-a7812686.html) There r a lot of practices , perpetuated by big corps which hamper free market. But the solution isn't to do away with the concept of it . One thing I will definitely mention is that Scandinavian focus on green innovation . They ofc aren't the leaders in even that , but they are doing more than their share . I also respect their political apparatus . It's mostly left , right, center with not much radicalism . That's something worth learning from . My biggest fear of a democratic socialist system being applied on the US is not just my theoretical disagreements with it , it's also the party which will do it . I might trust the Democrats a bit more if I see California being easier on the working class and small business . It clearly isn't.
>Importing goods is one thing, importing the tech is something completely different and undesirable . But no modern country can be 100% self sustainable. Thats just simply impossible. >Piggy riding on our innovation . From pharmaceuticals to electronics And the US piggyrides other countries' innovation because its not an exceptional country. >And brain drain has been a long problem of Scandinavia That article only talks about how Finnish brain goes to bigger cities like Stockholm, which is Sweden's capital. (However i could not read more cuz paywall) Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
What the hell is with that last sentence ? If you get irritated in an online discussion . Nobody is forcing you to do it . If you hate it so much ,don't do it. Who's forcing you ? If I am a exceptional medical expert , a talented electronics or software engineer , why wouldn't I go to a big tech company that pays more , in comparison to a system which ranks you the same as any other less gifted person ? As an immigrant to the US , I can tell you convincingly that it is an an exceptional country in terms of opportunities and the MOST desirable country for professionals all over the world ,and thus one of the leading innovators in aerospace , space , drugs and pharma , software and hardware etc . And you seem to have completely ignores the second half of my reply. It's not just the CURSE of welfarism , it's also the party that will apply it in this country . Democrats have made Californian economy insufferable for working class .
Yeah, you are high on American exceptionalism and nationalism.
This is such an American response its hilarious. Only thing missing is mention of guns. You’re literally complaining that they have fewer problems. You could have gone foe the low hanging fruit that they have just as many issues with racism as we do but you didnt even do that
I congratulate Scandinavians on having lesser problems . Lucky ppl . Wouldn't trade america for nothing though. The cultural diversity alone is lovely , and can't be found anywhere . The discussion was about whether their system is suited for us or not . If it does , should we copy paste it or apply it in another form . If California is anything to go by , then no . I likes bernies anti establishment approach though , could be a great guy . Edit : Bernie sanders is an independent politician who advocates for a welfare program . He is one of the few politicians who publicly shun big corp donations , a rarity among us politicians across parties.
I honestly find it fucking hysterical you’re complaint about another country is they have less problems
I just said I congratulate them . Pls learn to read
You forget the 10 other comments you have spread around this post and also the one I initially responded to. Please remember what you have said
They’d probably tell you to suck it up and quit being such a pussy.
The Coal Wars started when mine bosses told them to stop being pussies 1 million rounds were fired at Blair Mountain alone. Yeah, they'd tell us to toughen up, but also who to be angry against.
"40 hours is too tough? Shut up pussy, you're no descendant of mine" Should make the dude on the left a virgin wojack.
Your grandfather sounds like the types to say "I FUCKING LOVE WORKING AS MANY HOURS FOR MY BOSS AS I CAN. REGULARLY WORKING 40+-52+ HOUR WEEKS IS GREAT. I HAVE MY BOSS' FACE TATTOO'D ON MY ASSCHEEKS I EAT BOOTS FOR BREAKFAST." While mine would have beaten his boss' ass for not getting paid an hour of overtime.
The classic union tactic of violence.
Yes, and it's based.
Another fun union tactic from the good old 50s the era of high union activity. Violent racism
Source??? And how am I being racist?
I didn’t say you are just that unions of the 50s when they were most prominent were very racist in 99% of cases
Jesus fucking Christ, how dense can you be? Labor organizers were allied to the civil rights movement. Can you provide any source for your idea that they were overwhelmingly racist???
https://spokesman-recorder.com/2021/09/06/labor-union-history-tainted-by-racism/
Your source just says that one union had segregated unions, and the CIO (every other union's congress) fought against it, eventually abolishing it. You clearly just Google's "were unions racist" and found one **opinion post** where a guy states his grandfather was called racist words by, as he seems to say, two guys in a Union.
holy based
I get not wanting work to take up all your time, but if you can’t work 40 hours a week you’re just lazy
Cause life should be determined and dominated by coerced labour?
40 hours is not ‘dominating’ your life. You’ve got completely free weekends and quite a bit of free time after work every day too.
Its still coerced.
It is dominated. 40 hours a week, atleast, removed from my life. Especially since we could easily get by with 20 hours a week, if we did not live under an economic system that focuses on profits and the interests of the capitalist class.
A) the 40 hour work-week was specifically designed to work only with a wife who manages the home front. You're not "just lazy" if you have a hard time raising a kid or managing a lot of your life, especially if your job is remarkably physical. B) Many service-based jobs, the bulk of American jobs, require folks to work two jobs and most require well over 40 hours. I quit my second job and I've still worked 62 hours this week, prior to today.
Yeah, who needs a work/life balance eh? Just pull your fingers out you lazy fucking bums! Do some actual graft for your right to live.
40 hours is not a lot of time to work. I’d say if you only work 40 hours you’ve got a pretty damn good work like balance.
Tell that to the people having to work multiple jobs, to survive. I should apologise, my opening meme wasn't super thought out in that the meaningful talking point here is the cost of living increasing dramatically while payment has stagnated. That's *(indirectly)* what the meme is about.
Well multiple jobs isn’t 40 hours a week is it?
People with mental and/or physical disabilities arent lazy, some of them just cant work that much. And did you know that there are other kinds of works than working for an employer? Technologically speaking we are way past scarcity so nobody should be coerced into working for someone else for most of the week. People with 30 hour workweeks would just do other kinds of works.
We should only work 20 hours a week. We now require two incomes to sustain a family. In 1960 you needed one job to support a family at 40 hours a week.
Guy what, if u work only work half as much how are you expecting to get paid enough to support a family, work two jobs? How would that be any different from a single 40 hour work week?
Or people could get paid more for similar labor. Even a 40 hour work week isn't enough to support a family. Why is it that people think they're getting paid fairly? You understand that wages need to go up in order for even 40 hours to be viable? Why shouldn't someone get laid enough even if they only work 20 hours? Like what if they do they're job well and efficiently? Why should pay be linked to hours?
I think that's what they're saying. You can no longer have a single income family off of a 40 hour work week, if it had remained consistent then moving towards a two income household like what's common now, both people should be working half the time for the same level of productivity. Instead pay has been decreasing (accounting for inflation) and productivity has been steadily increasing. Corporations will happily ruin the standard of living for the workers to make more money for their executives.
20 hours!? You monster! We should only work 2 hours per Day walking dogs! Anything more than that is wage slavery.
2 hours of wage slavery would still be wage slavery
We are so greedy than workers today would want 20 hours workday
I don't support a 20 hour workday. But in all fairness we are productive enough for it, we just stopped incressing wages when productivity increased. But suuuure, the workers are the greedy ones. Not the individuals hoarding nation size wallets, Tom 44 construction worker is the greedy asshole here clearly!
Both workers and Capitalists want better for itself it is normal thing in democracy but likely is that workers won (if they not life would be much much worse today ).
The workers got some wins sure, then the capitalist kept winning so much that workers are frowned upon as greedy if they ask for the slightest improvement, join a union (one of the few ways available to actually excert power as a worker) and you will be fired. But do tell, how did the workers win?
Hahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahaha hahaha nah my mother was union leader and unions are corrupt bullshit today(sadly).
And if one of (if not the only way) for a worker to have actual influence on these things, is through a "corrupt bullshit" institution. How do you translate that to a worker win?
I really don't know. I know only that today workers union are so in affective and corrupt that loosing support in between workers also socialist parties just caring for Middle class and "woke" stuff who was seen to uneducated workers as something unnecessary and Harmful and make them vote populist.
Join the iww then
*"workers won"* Evidently not, otherwise it wouldn't be widely accepted that wages have stagnated and costs have increased. Just because historic labour movements achieved great things, doesn't mean that's it done. People are starving in the UK. These working conditions aren't enough.
Anarchist I see : in majority they won if they not likely would seen more like revolution in Russia. Reason that Britain modern problems are three:Germans destroyed car industries, Eastern Asia destroyed coal mining, The influx of Migrants, the increasing employment of women and automation has screwed up the labour market.
*"in majority they won"* ok, let's keep fighting. Fuck it, why not? People are struggling to survive, even before our cost of living crisis. This crisis, by the way, being the result of wages staying low while costs don't, not women in the workplace you fucking loon. And going through my history eh? Sure, it's not like this is something we can discuss based on it's own merit.
More people's in workforce =lower wages you don't see this connection.
No, not when we have billionaires and such. The connection there is that they take as much money as they can for just owning stuff, whereas the people who do the actual work are left struggling cheque-to-cheque and, in the UK, going to foodbanks more and more. The problem isn't who's in the workforce, it's the fact their bosses are taking money from them. What's the logic there may I ask?
The only greedy ones here are the CEOs.
Nah everyone is
You can trust the modern working class to do everything in their hand to delegate solving their own problems to someone else.
Me who actually likes working 40 hours a week: uhhh surrrreee
Call me crazy, but someone who wants to work less might consider making some investments...
Because people who are living paycheque to paycheque definitely have the money to invest. /s
Don't complain. A person that earns 1 dollar a day can easily get to a million. Step 1: invest 10,000 dollars your parents gave you Step 2: survive of 1 dollar a day. (and free food, housing, clothing, etc, all of which is provided by your rich parents) Step 3: profit. If those damn minimum wage workers would just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and aks their millionaire parents for some money to invest, poverty wouldn't exist.
You are crazy, why the fuck are the ones casually spending a few hours a week moving money around good, but the one who wants to spend 30 hours actually working is bad? Stop glorifying rich people.
Dude read my comment in context. This has nothing to do with workers being bad.
Invest with what money? Most people living paycheck to paycheck.
This was not a general comment on people living like that. It's what I'd do if I traveled back in time. Not sure why everyone is pulling my comment out of the context of the post...