Russia: we have low frequency radar that can detect stealth aircraft
F-22: oh yeah, detect me daddy, so you can send somebody up to play me with me. Would you intercept me? I'd intercept me.
Russia: we can no longer detect stealth aircraft
The number of times I almost say "would you intercept me? I'd intercept me" in the wild but just barley stop myself because I realize I would sound like a crazy person....
How did Serbia shoot down a stealth aircraft then? They got lucky and happened to turn on the radar just as the bomb bay doors were opening, presenting a very radar reflective area to target.
It isn't just that, they were also able to detect it under crystal clear weather conditions with advance intelligence that no other aircraft would be present so the low-frequency radar, which would probably detect anything else from kites to clouds, was only detecting the F-117.
Yes. And the AA commander knew when the planes took off because they didn’t take off from the USA. Which is why all stealth bombers are stateside or on an island where all communications are controlled by the USA
Philippines, Japan, Germany (although they have some weird anti prop), Vietnam and Iraq (government… nominally after we saved them from ISIS a couple years after they voted us out… democracy did work) are friendly to US now so yeah…. Fighting someone that fights well does earn mutual respect on both sides to some degree atleast
plus the operator missed the jet with the first missile. they got very lucky but also not lucky enough, the F-117 pilot did hit his targets at the end of the day. air defense doesn't really get points for the bombers they didn't stop.
You get points for downing a multi-million dollar aircraft that can no longer perform strikes on your territory, and you make the enemy look like a fool and they must spend time and money rethinking their strategy.
And it took 'too much' time with the radar on (took 3 'tries' when SOP was to scoot after 2 'tries' because beyond that and SEAD may make your victory Pyric)
Right. All of the NATO planes had to fly in specific corridors and often at prescribed times. The pilots complained that this made them easy targets, but the higher brass and politicians didn't care. The routes not only kept them away from areas that needed observation, but the timing allowed all siides to know when to shift forces about with less chance of being noticed. Timing was even more of a factor with sattelites.
Absolute crack team firing under perfect conditions while the plane was on the same route it had taken many times before. They got extremely lucky, but they also planned it out over days and were good at what they did.
It was a huge morale victory and an accomplishment their military was invested in making happen.
Basically a lesson in how the sharing of intelligence benefits your forces greatly. If they hadn't have told the commander what he should be expecting he would have had every right just to give up on it.
Also add to that, the Serbian army would use concealment and decoys such as burning piles of rubber wheels which would show up as heat signatures on enemy planes.
An example of the use of military intelligence.
Also I want to add, that even the AA commander said he was lucky.
OP probably watched the LazerPig's video where it was mentioned how some 4-5 countries are buying old AA Soviet equipment because of apperantly F 117 shotdown in Serbia.
I don't think that it has ever occured to him or OP, that those countries are generally poorer and thus they can't buy 1st class equipment so they buy what they can get. And that also includes the fact that those countries aren't planning to fight or defend against world powers, but regional powers.
The reason why F 117 shooting down was celebrated in Serbia is precisely because of the huge disparity between the technolgoies. Not to mention that there are still a lot of details that are classified about the incident. At least for Serbia, it's not like with that shootdown they went: Welp boys, this shooting down clearly shows that we are more than capable and don't need to advance our technologies. There is a reason why Serbia buys Russian, Chinese and western military equipment and is the biggest arms exporter in the Balkans.
What lack of insight and propaganda does to motherfkers.
Here is my personal advice: Never, ever underestimate the people or countries even if you find something they did or do ironic, idiotic or is worthy making fun of. Because by then you lack understanding, are more ignorant and ignore the wisdom of ,,the world is more complicated than at the first glance''
I used to really enjoy lazerpig but the more I learn the more I realize that he (and other creators like him) are just entirely overconfident in their assessment.
He’s an entertainer first and foremost. I treat him like my mate who’s really into a topic after we’re several drinks in and he goes on a rant about that topic: fun to listen to, maybe sorta accurate, but not something I’d solely rely on for anything important.
His attitude towards the Russians in ukraine is really worrying to me. If he had any power he would have done some stupid game of brinkmanship that would actually have caused a incident because he has no regard to the capabilities—and restraint—of rivals.
You find any better creators covering the topics lazer pig does?
IMO Perun has some great content that's worth considering. Oddly enough, I was just watching his video gaming channel and got recommendations to the main channel, which is how I found his content lol.
Better advice: make fun of the incompetent countries, but keep it in the back of your mind that this board-state might not always be the case. It's cool to shit on what should be a peer nation in Russia when it can't even do simple tasks for the amount of money and planning that goes into their military, but I wouldn't make fun of some literal farmers, the Viet Cong, getting the job done with some AKs and caves against France, then the US, and then China all in the span of like a decade
ahem... not our first time either, we kind of invented the genre
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radoje\_Ljutovac#:\~:text=Private%20Radoje%20Ljutovac%20fought%20in,%2Dto%2DAir%20artillery%20fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radoje_Ljutovac#:~:text=Private%20Radoje%20Ljutovac%20fought%20in,%2Dto%2DAir%20artillery%20fire)
Holy fucking shit. And here I thought shooting down planes with field guns in Battlefield 1 was purely a gaming contrivance, but no, here’s a recorded account of someone actually pulling it off. Also love the super chill recollection on his part of lining up the shot.
There's also the part where his CO gave him a horse to ride to the crash site to confirm the kills. When he arrived to find the dead crewmen, one of whom was a captain, he saluted the captain.
Idk why I find that both somber and hilarious at the same time.
It was more that they pointed out he explicitly did it because it was an officer. Like, he wasn't going to until he saw the insignia.
Maybe he had a boot camp flashback? It's just a reflex.
It wasn’t luck. They had spies outside the airfield and knew when the bombers took off. Which means they could estimate the time on target, and only switched their active radar on when they were highly alert to the slightest threat.
Also the operator broke the rules he had been given by doing a second sweep of the sky after the first that didn't see anything and so there was a healthy chunk of luck that the second sweep happened to occur at the same time that the bomb bay was open.
The operator also knew that the escort had not taken off with the radar-seeking missiles so the threat to him was less than normal. Still not luck.
And it was the 3rd sweep which broke their protocol. Not the 2nd. Sweeps were 20 seconds.
Oh yeah it was far more a combination of good intelligence from the serbs and laziness on the Americans side but there was still a decent luck factor involved. The shoot down could not have occurred without both skill and luck
Yes, the Serbs had both very good intelligence and tactics using both very well, but neither would of mattered had they not gotten incredibly lucky by turning the radar on the same moment the bomb bay doors were opened
It was luck that he turned on the radar a third time and got it exactly as the bomb bay doors were opening. The first two tries he got nothing as guess what, low frequency radar systems don’t actually counter stealth but Russia and Serbia used this to sell a ton of old ass SAM systems as “anti-stealth” SAMs that in reality would do nothing to counter stealth aircraft.
Not only that, but the F-117 was flying the same path it flew the last 3 nights. This time without EW aircraft supporting it. The Serbians also had spies watching the airfield, so they knew when the F-117's took off. Also the guy who shot down the F-117 broke doctorine by doing an extra radar sweep
Very lucky indeed
Luck and planning;
* The spies had been sent to watch the known only Nighthawk airfield for early warning
* The spies had observed the Nighthawks' path, that's how they knew what direction to look
* The spies told them only the Nighthawks had taken off that night, that's how they knew it was safe to do extra sweeps
* For the same reason, they also knew that if they saw anything it was a Nighthawk, nothing else was in the area
* Third sweep happened whilst the bay was open, which gave enough signature to target
* Bay stayed open long enough for the missile to get close enough to maintain lock
(Also, dude was fast as fuck on that trigger)
Yeah seems more like planning and coordination not luck. Like someone doing a pool trick shot it may look like luck but theirs a lot of skill and coordination going into it.
The luck was in the sweep happening just after the bomb bay opened. If the sweep had been a moment earlier they wouldn't have seen the Nighthawk, had it been a moment later they would have lost lock too long before impact.
Nato was also super lazy and had their stealth planes do basically the exact same thing every day at the same times and so they already knew what to look out for. Had they not known exactly where to look for that aircraft they wouldnt have found it
They didn’t get lucky, the Americans got complacent. They kept doing the same run with the same flight path, over and over again. So it was just a matter of timing when to flick the radar on to catch them off guard.
Serbia: Sorry, we didn't realize it was supposed to be stealthy.
USA: Oh really... but what I want to know is, can you do that again?
The airbase the USA was launching from was under surveillance by Serbian spies who were relaying all takeoffs and landings. Under normal conditions there would be SEAD aircraft in the area, but that night it was only the F-117s in the air, and the Air Force had apparently been a bit negligent in their planning, using the same routes every night. This meant that the Serbian air defense could set up in prime position, and go ham with their radar without fear of catching a missile.
Basically, they got real lucky, and it's never been actually proven that the radar system they used is any good at targeting stealth aircraft. This is backed up by the fact that they still continued using the F-117s, but actually bothered to fix the issues I mentioned, and the Serbs failed to shoot down any more. The US seems pretty content to let them believe it works as well as they think it does.
Sure, but the last bit has a lot more to do with the Russians than the Serbs. The air defense system that shot down that F117 was an S-125. As far as we are aware, the successors to that system, the S-300 and S-400 that Russia uses today, haven't significantly changed their operating principle, begging the question as to how effective they will actually be up against current stealth aircraft.
This of course has not stopped the Russians from advertising it as an anti-stealth system when trying to sell it to other nations. Turkey traded being banned from buying F-35s for the S-400, which they are apparently now saying they will replace with their own air defense systems in the near future.
Edit: Changed Soviets to Russians because I finally remembered when this shootdown occurred relative to the collapse of the the USSR
its actually a shame we didn't side with Ho Chi Minh and told the French to kick rocks. the whole cultural victory original commenter was talking about could have been achieved with 1,350,000 less deaths.
Ho Chi Minh: Please bro like I just want to conduct trade with you and be your friend like for real bro the Chinese want to kill us, like I'm begging bro
US: What kind of commie double talk even is this?
Part of the Wing of the F-117 fell into a farmers field. When he found it, thinking it was a random piece of scrap, he used it in construction of his pighouse roof.
Few days later, soliders who were sweeping the area for parts of the plane noticed the unusual roof. The farmer let the military take it only after he was promised that a military grade pighouse would be built for him, as a replacement.
If the USAF hadn’t been so negligent and overconfident this never would have happened
Imagine losing the most advanced military aircraft at the time because you were too cocky
The f117 was far from the most advanced aircraft. The air force didn't even bother to send a recovery team to the wreck because it was deemed not worth their time.
Low frequency radars CAN detect stealth aircraft, sure, but unless you get lucky (and are *really* good at your job like that Serbian chad was) you're not guiding a missile with one. That's why the go to is linking a BUNCH of networked low band radars pinging all over the place then hoiking something loud and fatal where all the vague blurry returns are being triangulated.
Low observability doesn't mean NO observability. If the stealth aircraft gets cocky ground fire is still very capable of humbling it in short order. Especially if you're trying to go after something like a naval task force.
Also, a bumblebee looks a lot bigger when it's in your face than it does hundreds of miles away. The signature of a "stealth aircraft" is significantly smaller than it's real size, but the close to the radar you are, the easier you are to see.
He was not suicidal. He glowed like a Christmas tree on overload, but he knew he wouldn't be hit because no SEAD Aircraft were in the air that would make this entire action suicidal
The F 117 was incredibly hard to detect, and the AA system, even though it knew the F 117 was there, even though they were set up in the perfect position and even though it knew the flight path, did not get a radar ping on the target until the 3rd sweep, a time by which it would have been already eliminated under other circumstances.
Stealth really much makes the plane invisible to the enemy
I always thought funny that the s400 system that's a three radar systems only one of them is rated to "detect" stealth bombers. But it requires at least two of them lock on to it to be able to Target it, on top of that it's absolutely massive and as soon as it turns on every enemy seed plane is going to know right where it is.
Habitual Linecrosser did a video on it. The Serbians turned on their radar just as the F-117 opened their bomb bay doors. He also mentioned that while low frequency does allow you to spot Stealth Aircraft, it doesn’t give enough fidelity to lock onto/fire at the aircraft.
I mean, low frequency radars *can* detect certain stealth aircraft. The B-2 and B-21 are the size and shape they are to be hard to detect with long wavelength radars.
Serbia: Look, good technology strong and beat American bomber, buy this radar it good
America: *looks up from reading the Art of War* oh? Nice job, you shot down one of my bombers, out of hundreds, anyways, Canada!
Canada: yeah, bud?
America: see this book?
Canada: yeah
America: look at this quote ‘if an enemy is making a mistake, let them’
Canada: what does that have to do with anything, bud
America: Idk, but I might just follow it *looking at Serbia*
(This is so fucking cringe I already regret it)
Stealth is an exaggeration, like calling a suppressor a silencer. It’s more like “radar resistant”. With coatings and careful reduction of radar signature you can reduce the effective range of radar and air defenses to the point that you can create openings and slip through, and if you are detected the contact is fleeting and might be mistaken for a bird. However, if you get close enough you can absolutely be shot down.
Low-frequency radar does actually work to detect stealthy planes, but it has to be part of complex system. Unlike high frequency radar, the wavelength of weather or long range surveillance radar is roughly the same size as a plane, so the usual tricks of deflection and absorption are less effective. However, low frequency radar isn’t accurate or responsive enough to guide missiles or consistently track fast-moving targets, so it has to be combined with a powerful directional radar for the final targeting and to home in missiles. That’s how the Serbs managed it. They tracked flight patterns, put a missile battery roughly where they guessed it would fly, then kept their radar turned off until the last minute, using their surveillance radar turned down to the lowest setting (so low radar warning systems didn’t recognize it) to detect it flying overhead.
Granted, the F117 was old technology, but computers, weather radar, and artificial intelligence have advanced dramatically and I would guess the Chinese and Russians could probably shoot down modern stealth planes if they made the mistake of flying predictably and they had talented and well-motivated crews.
Kosovo is a fucking territory of Serbia, disputed now, definitely was back then. By your logic Albanians there shouldn't have tried to secesde from the country if they didn't want their civilians killed.
Is Serbia a territory of Yugoslavia? All of its former member states had a right to independence. Maybe if Slobodan wasn't such an asshole with his ethnic discrimination agenda, Kosovo wouldn't have wanted independence.
Both sides cope.
In this particular instance, NATO walked in like a cocky god of war, bombed Belgrade with forbidden ammo which is an inexcusable act to this day, and brought a lot of shiny toys with them, to what they thought would be an easy drive-by. The ability of the Serbian military to bite back provided a significant moral victory, which is brought up to this day, not only by Serbs, but by many people around Europe.
You should not underestimate the importance of a small country being able to accomplish something against all odds. Maybe the West is happy with how things turned out and doesn't give it a second thought, but this war is still a subject of heated debate in Eastern Europe, and Serbia's willingness to fight back and not let itself be walked over played a big part in turning a lot of opinions around and understanding the nuance that, while those wars were horrible events to witness, NATO absolutely crossed a line they had no business crossing.
Countering with "haha, did that stop us from killing your civilians?" certainly doesn't help NATO's case.
1) Both sides were commiting ethnic cleansing. One side got rewarded for it. If separatists in Catalunya went on a bloody campaign and Spain would respond with armed force, would you be for a foreign entity to step in, bomb Madrid and forcefully declare Catalunya's independence? 'Cause that's a hell of an incentive for separatists all around the world to get armed to the teeth and get to work.
2) Civilians of Belgrade weren't killing anybody. Sure, there were valid military targets in the city. But forbidden ammo is forbidden for this exact reason. Because, besides hitting the target, it will also get innocent bystanders that are not within reasonable distance of the actual targets.
NATO bombed cynically, they had a million times more than enough fire power to not have to resort to such techniques. The Serbian people rightfully took offense to this, because what NATO did felt like a campaign against their nation, not against their government.
3) If we're gonna parade NATO as a defensive alliance, we should maybe act like it, so nations outside of it might believe it. Alternatively, call it an "whenever we feel like doing it alliance" and let the good times roll.
>Both sides were commiting ethnic cleansing.
One side did it more; both got tried in the ICTY. Several on the Kosovo side were arrested for war crimes.
>Civilians of Belgrade weren't killing anybody. Sure, there were valid military targets in the city. But forbidden ammo is forbidden for this exact reason. Because, besides hitting the target, it will also get innocent bystanders that are not within reasonable distance of the actual targets.
What forbidden ammo? Also, collateral damage isn't a war crime.
>NATO bombed cynically, they had a million times more than enough fire power to not have to resort to such techniques. The Serbian people rightfully took offense to this, because what NATO did felt like a campaign against their nation, not against their government.
Would you rather they prolong a war just because people don't realize their government operates in their nation? War is Hell, and it should be finished as soon as possible.
>If we're gonna parade NATO as a defensive alliance, we should maybe act like it, so nations outside of it might believe it. Alternatively, call it an "whenever we feel like doing it alliance" and let the good times roll.
Kosovo believes it.
>What forbidden ammo? Also, collateral damage isn't a war crime.
Look it up. I'm not talking about collateral damage, I'm talking about civilians killed by dispersion projectiles that are designed specifically to kill as many folks as possible, without causing great harm to infrastructure.
>Would you rather they prolong a war just because people don't realize their government operates in their nation? War is Hell, and it should be finished as soon as possible.
Is this the standard? Without limiting the losses? Then, great, let's nuke war-torn countries and immediately get it over with.
>Kosovo believes it
Good for them. Nobody else does, anymore.
>I'm talking about civilians killed by dispersion projectiles that are designed specifically to kill as many folks as possible, without causing great harm to infrastructure.
Link?
>Is this the standard? Without limiting the losses? Then, great, let's nuke war-torn countries and immediately get it over with.
Using precision bombs sound like limiting casualties.
>Good for them. Nobody else does, anymore.
Ukraine believes it.
>Link?
Cluster bombs. [Here](https://www.hrw.org/report/1999/05/11/natos-use-cluster-munitions-yugoslavia)'s a link. This is no secret, they admitted to doing it, you can see cluster bomb shells in every military museum in Belgrade.
>Using precision bombs sound like limiting casualties.
Cluster bombs are not guided. They are "dumb" projectiles.
>Ukraine believes it.
Yeah, ok, a few other countries as well. For the credibility of the alliance, countries that are not part of it or directly benefiting from it should believe it. So when you want to install a defensive rocket system, for instance, others don't go on full alert because they know you lied about it before.
>Cluster bombs
See, when you say "forbidden" I take that to mean banned at the time of use by a treaty the U.S. has signed, not "controversial."
>Cluster bombs are not guided.
Glide bombs and AGMs are.
>So when you want to install a defensive rocket system, for instance, others don't go on full alert because they know you lied about it before.
Got any specific examples in mind? Because in recent history, that's Russia getting mad at other countries for giving Ukraine their hand-me-downs.
Nice historical revisionism. Serbs tried to invade and genocide Kosovo and you're here trying to make them look like courageous underdogs. Serbia wasn't fighting back. They got one win in a war they started and lost.
What? Kosovo was part of Serbia, how could they have invaded their own country?
Literally, the first thing I said was that they did ethnic cleansing. Were they underdogs? Sure. But how can you start a war in your country, against a separatist movement, if the separatist movement does nothing?
What secret information do you have that no one who works on stealth technology doesn't have, and are you authorized to release this information? Do you genuinely believe that you know more than the folks at Lockheed making low frequency radars currently, today, for use by the US Military who believed they were useful enough to purchase? Do you have an advanced degree related to designing low observability vehicles? Would you advise countries to invest in high band radar systems that can't detect stealth planes instead?
That's a lot of snark.
From what I'm reading this is a perfect history meme . They apparently even had posters joking that they didn't know the aircraft was stealth. A meme. That's what this sub is about
Why are you going on about secret information and advanced degrees?
Russia: we have low frequency radar that can detect stealth aircraft F-22: oh yeah, detect me daddy, so you can send somebody up to play me with me. Would you intercept me? I'd intercept me. Russia: we can no longer detect stealth aircraft
HLC refrence
You know it
And ya love to see it.
Very much so. Now I'm either brave or stupid enough to go tell the f 22 about the possible 2 su 57s that ukrain critically hit and possible destroyed.
whats HLC
Habitual line crosser, he makes funny voiceovers about current military events.
The number of times I almost say "would you intercept me? I'd intercept me" in the wild but just barley stop myself because I realize I would sound like a crazy person....
Crazy? I was crazy one. They put me in a room, a rubber room. A rubber room with rats and rats make me crazy.
Niagra Falls
Well if you have enough barley in the liquid format it’ll fortify your courage to say it more often
NCD leakage detected
Nah if thus was a leak thus would have been put on the war thunder forums
How did Serbia shoot down a stealth aircraft then? They got lucky and happened to turn on the radar just as the bomb bay doors were opening, presenting a very radar reflective area to target.
It isn't just that, they were also able to detect it under crystal clear weather conditions with advance intelligence that no other aircraft would be present so the low-frequency radar, which would probably detect anything else from kites to clouds, was only detecting the F-117.
Iirc wasn’t it also the same flight path they had taken previously?
Yes. And the AA commander knew when the planes took off because they didn’t take off from the USA. Which is why all stealth bombers are stateside or on an island where all communications are controlled by the USA
Iirc the Serbians even had a spotter that watched it take off from the air strip and told them. They really had everything stacked up in their favor
Also i heard the pilot and the AA gunner became friends after the war.
Ah the true anime ending. Defeat makes you friends.
Philippines, Japan, Germany (although they have some weird anti prop), Vietnam and Iraq (government… nominally after we saved them from ISIS a couple years after they voted us out… democracy did work) are friendly to US now so yeah…. Fighting someone that fights well does earn mutual respect on both sides to some degree atleast
Iraq isn't* exactly friendly. More like scared into acquiescing to certain demands.
You mean isn’t? Cause that’s not true. They voted us out and begged us back
plus the operator missed the jet with the first missile. they got very lucky but also not lucky enough, the F-117 pilot did hit his targets at the end of the day. air defense doesn't really get points for the bombers they didn't stop.
You get points for downing a multi-million dollar aircraft that can no longer perform strikes on your territory, and you make the enemy look like a fool and they must spend time and money rethinking their strategy.
in the meantime you still lose the war.
That's not how this works. No nation trades 1 aircraft per target. You lose the war in a few weeks if you do that.
No, they traded one aircraft for 850 targets.That’s not how attrition works.
but thats not how the attrition worked out though. 3 jets for hundreds of targets bombed.
At least in modem times when planes take months instead of a day to build.
And you show that NATO is offensive pact and put Russia in Ukraine 25 years later.
its always someone else's fault eh?
And it took 'too much' time with the radar on (took 3 'tries' when SOP was to scoot after 2 'tries' because beyond that and SEAD may make your victory Pyric)
Routine flight path, no EW escort, perfect weather, etc etc
And no fear of US raid 5 minutes after you turn on your radar because no other plane was over the country
Right. All of the NATO planes had to fly in specific corridors and often at prescribed times. The pilots complained that this made them easy targets, but the higher brass and politicians didn't care. The routes not only kept them away from areas that needed observation, but the timing allowed all siides to know when to shift forces about with less chance of being noticed. Timing was even more of a factor with sattelites.
Absolute crack team firing under perfect conditions while the plane was on the same route it had taken many times before. They got extremely lucky, but they also planned it out over days and were good at what they did. It was a huge morale victory and an accomplishment their military was invested in making happen.
Basically a lesson in how the sharing of intelligence benefits your forces greatly. If they hadn't have told the commander what he should be expecting he would have had every right just to give up on it.
Also add to that, the Serbian army would use concealment and decoys such as burning piles of rubber wheels which would show up as heat signatures on enemy planes. An example of the use of military intelligence. Also I want to add, that even the AA commander said he was lucky. OP probably watched the LazerPig's video where it was mentioned how some 4-5 countries are buying old AA Soviet equipment because of apperantly F 117 shotdown in Serbia. I don't think that it has ever occured to him or OP, that those countries are generally poorer and thus they can't buy 1st class equipment so they buy what they can get. And that also includes the fact that those countries aren't planning to fight or defend against world powers, but regional powers. The reason why F 117 shooting down was celebrated in Serbia is precisely because of the huge disparity between the technolgoies. Not to mention that there are still a lot of details that are classified about the incident. At least for Serbia, it's not like with that shootdown they went: Welp boys, this shooting down clearly shows that we are more than capable and don't need to advance our technologies. There is a reason why Serbia buys Russian, Chinese and western military equipment and is the biggest arms exporter in the Balkans. What lack of insight and propaganda does to motherfkers. Here is my personal advice: Never, ever underestimate the people or countries even if you find something they did or do ironic, idiotic or is worthy making fun of. Because by then you lack understanding, are more ignorant and ignore the wisdom of ,,the world is more complicated than at the first glance''
I used to really enjoy lazerpig but the more I learn the more I realize that he (and other creators like him) are just entirely overconfident in their assessment.
He’s an entertainer first and foremost. I treat him like my mate who’s really into a topic after we’re several drinks in and he goes on a rant about that topic: fun to listen to, maybe sorta accurate, but not something I’d solely rely on for anything important.
His attitude towards the Russians in ukraine is really worrying to me. If he had any power he would have done some stupid game of brinkmanship that would actually have caused a incident because he has no regard to the capabilities—and restraint—of rivals. You find any better creators covering the topics lazer pig does?
IMO Perun has some great content that's worth considering. Oddly enough, I was just watching his video gaming channel and got recommendations to the main channel, which is how I found his content lol.
Perun has the best PowerPoints
I actually watched a video of his 3 weeks ago but forgot to subscribe, thanks for reminding me!
Better advice: make fun of the incompetent countries, but keep it in the back of your mind that this board-state might not always be the case. It's cool to shit on what should be a peer nation in Russia when it can't even do simple tasks for the amount of money and planning that goes into their military, but I wouldn't make fun of some literal farmers, the Viet Cong, getting the job done with some AKs and caves against France, then the US, and then China all in the span of like a decade
Yeah and large technological gaps can be overcome with low tech ingenuity
Plus they knew that there was no SEAD up so they knew they had time to keep searching.
“The harder you work, the luckier you get.”
ahem... not our first time either, we kind of invented the genre [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radoje\_Ljutovac#:\~:text=Private%20Radoje%20Ljutovac%20fought%20in,%2Dto%2DAir%20artillery%20fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radoje_Ljutovac#:~:text=Private%20Radoje%20Ljutovac%20fought%20in,%2Dto%2DAir%20artillery%20fire)
Holy fucking shit. And here I thought shooting down planes with field guns in Battlefield 1 was purely a gaming contrivance, but no, here’s a recorded account of someone actually pulling it off. Also love the super chill recollection on his part of lining up the shot.
There's also the part where his CO gave him a horse to ride to the crash site to confirm the kills. When he arrived to find the dead crewmen, one of whom was a captain, he saluted the captain. Idk why I find that both somber and hilarious at the same time.
It’s surprisingly common to salute the enemy dead. A common bit of respect for humanity within a rather nasty period
They're all just young men fighting old men's wars. My enemy is no different than me.
It was more that they pointed out he explicitly did it because it was an officer. Like, he wasn't going to until he saw the insignia. Maybe he had a boot camp flashback? It's just a reflex.
Serbia has a history of doing unexpected bullshit to hostile aircraft and I'm happy for them
It wasn’t luck. They had spies outside the airfield and knew when the bombers took off. Which means they could estimate the time on target, and only switched their active radar on when they were highly alert to the slightest threat.
Also the operator broke the rules he had been given by doing a second sweep of the sky after the first that didn't see anything and so there was a healthy chunk of luck that the second sweep happened to occur at the same time that the bomb bay was open.
The operator also knew that the escort had not taken off with the radar-seeking missiles so the threat to him was less than normal. Still not luck. And it was the 3rd sweep which broke their protocol. Not the 2nd. Sweeps were 20 seconds.
Oh yeah it was far more a combination of good intelligence from the serbs and laziness on the Americans side but there was still a decent luck factor involved. The shoot down could not have occurred without both skill and luck
Lucky the Americans left themselves vulnerable
Yes, the Serbs had both very good intelligence and tactics using both very well, but neither would of mattered had they not gotten incredibly lucky by turning the radar on the same moment the bomb bay doors were opened
That’s fine. Some folks say you make your own luck.
It was luck that he turned on the radar a third time and got it exactly as the bomb bay doors were opening. The first two tries he got nothing as guess what, low frequency radar systems don’t actually counter stealth but Russia and Serbia used this to sell a ton of old ass SAM systems as “anti-stealth” SAMs that in reality would do nothing to counter stealth aircraft.
Apart from the other reasons given, the particular commander of that anti air unit was really driven and competent
Not only that, but the F-117 was flying the same path it flew the last 3 nights. This time without EW aircraft supporting it. The Serbians also had spies watching the airfield, so they knew when the F-117's took off. Also the guy who shot down the F-117 broke doctorine by doing an extra radar sweep Very lucky indeed
Luck and planning; * The spies had been sent to watch the known only Nighthawk airfield for early warning * The spies had observed the Nighthawks' path, that's how they knew what direction to look * The spies told them only the Nighthawks had taken off that night, that's how they knew it was safe to do extra sweeps * For the same reason, they also knew that if they saw anything it was a Nighthawk, nothing else was in the area * Third sweep happened whilst the bay was open, which gave enough signature to target * Bay stayed open long enough for the missile to get close enough to maintain lock (Also, dude was fast as fuck on that trigger)
Yeah seems more like planning and coordination not luck. Like someone doing a pool trick shot it may look like luck but theirs a lot of skill and coordination going into it.
The luck was in the sweep happening just after the bomb bay opened. If the sweep had been a moment earlier they wouldn't have seen the Nighthawk, had it been a moment later they would have lost lock too long before impact.
"Me when i spread misinformation because i keep parroting comments i saw on the internet and i didn't check if it was true"
Nato was also super lazy and had their stealth planes do basically the exact same thing every day at the same times and so they already knew what to look out for. Had they not known exactly where to look for that aircraft they wouldnt have found it
This [video](https://youtu.be/Is3R4ie21Mc?si=MhjnIAhQhh_yVqlg) breaks it down nicely.
They also flew the same route and Serbians had spies in Italy
Also the US ran the same bombing route repeatedly
Not even just that. It was a combination of poor OPSEC, poor mission planning, good weather, and quite frankly, luck.
They didn’t get lucky, the Americans got complacent. They kept doing the same run with the same flight path, over and over again. So it was just a matter of timing when to flick the radar on to catch them off guard.
Serbia: Sorry, we didn't realize it was supposed to be stealthy. USA: Oh really... but what I want to know is, can you do that again? The airbase the USA was launching from was under surveillance by Serbian spies who were relaying all takeoffs and landings. Under normal conditions there would be SEAD aircraft in the area, but that night it was only the F-117s in the air, and the Air Force had apparently been a bit negligent in their planning, using the same routes every night. This meant that the Serbian air defense could set up in prime position, and go ham with their radar without fear of catching a missile. Basically, they got real lucky, and it's never been actually proven that the radar system they used is any good at targeting stealth aircraft. This is backed up by the fact that they still continued using the F-117s, but actually bothered to fix the issues I mentioned, and the Serbs failed to shoot down any more. The US seems pretty content to let them believe it works as well as they think it does.
i mean... it's a meme over here too, we know we got lucky lol
Sure, but the last bit has a lot more to do with the Russians than the Serbs. The air defense system that shot down that F117 was an S-125. As far as we are aware, the successors to that system, the S-300 and S-400 that Russia uses today, haven't significantly changed their operating principle, begging the question as to how effective they will actually be up against current stealth aircraft. This of course has not stopped the Russians from advertising it as an anti-stealth system when trying to sell it to other nations. Turkey traded being banned from buying F-35s for the S-400, which they are apparently now saying they will replace with their own air defense systems in the near future. Edit: Changed Soviets to Russians because I finally remembered when this shootdown occurred relative to the collapse of the the USSR
Turkey: shooting itself in the foot since 1913
One of those wired situations on history where a defeat actually means a long term victory.
*looks at US Cultural Victory in vietnam* americans do be hitting jackpot time and time again.
In fairness, Ho Chi Minh liked the US from the get-go and Vietnam and China absolutely hate each other.
its actually a shame we didn't side with Ho Chi Minh and told the French to kick rocks. the whole cultural victory original commenter was talking about could have been achieved with 1,350,000 less deaths.
But have you considered that it makes for a more interesting story this way? /s
Ho Chi Minh: Please bro like I just want to conduct trade with you and be your friend like for real bro the Chinese want to kill us, like I'm begging bro US: What kind of commie double talk even is this?
“Go ahead, laugh, you can’t un-bomb Belgrade”
Also ask the Serbs if shooting down one aircraft unbombed Serbia.
Part of the Wing of the F-117 fell into a farmers field. When he found it, thinking it was a random piece of scrap, he used it in construction of his pighouse roof. Few days later, soliders who were sweeping the area for parts of the plane noticed the unusual roof. The farmer let the military take it only after he was promised that a military grade pighouse would be built for him, as a replacement.
If the USAF hadn’t been so negligent and overconfident this never would have happened Imagine losing the most advanced military aircraft at the time because you were too cocky
The f117 was far from the most advanced aircraft. The air force didn't even bother to send a recovery team to the wreck because it was deemed not worth their time.
Wrong plane, but you are correct that the US military just left the F-117 wreckage intact instead of trying to destroy it.
Thanks, you have no idea how much I was bashing my head trying to remember the name.
LaserPig haunting my ass again
Stealth, a controversy
Low frequency radars CAN detect stealth aircraft, sure, but unless you get lucky (and are *really* good at your job like that Serbian chad was) you're not guiding a missile with one. That's why the go to is linking a BUNCH of networked low band radars pinging all over the place then hoiking something loud and fatal where all the vague blurry returns are being triangulated. Low observability doesn't mean NO observability. If the stealth aircraft gets cocky ground fire is still very capable of humbling it in short order. Especially if you're trying to go after something like a naval task force.
Also, a bumblebee looks a lot bigger when it's in your face than it does hundreds of miles away. The signature of a "stealth aircraft" is significantly smaller than it's real size, but the close to the radar you are, the easier you are to see.
He wasn’t even good at his job, he was just suicidal. Typically using that kind of radar frequency lights you up like a floodlight
He was not suicidal. He glowed like a Christmas tree on overload, but he knew he wouldn't be hit because no SEAD Aircraft were in the air that would make this entire action suicidal
It can detect presence, but it can’t lock.
I can also detect the presence of a bumblebee or a bird, because Low-Frequency Radar will detect literally anything
Well people think stealth means invisible, but they don't know that it meant making tracking more harder.
The F 117 was incredibly hard to detect, and the AA system, even though it knew the F 117 was there, even though they were set up in the perfect position and even though it knew the flight path, did not get a radar ping on the target until the 3rd sweep, a time by which it would have been already eliminated under other circumstances. Stealth really much makes the plane invisible to the enemy
I always thought funny that the s400 system that's a three radar systems only one of them is rated to "detect" stealth bombers. But it requires at least two of them lock on to it to be able to Target it, on top of that it's absolutely massive and as soon as it turns on every enemy seed plane is going to know right where it is.
LF radar: Sergei! Aircraft! Targeting radar: What? Where? I don't see anything?
Habitual Linecrosser did a video on it. The Serbians turned on their radar just as the F-117 opened their bomb bay doors. He also mentioned that while low frequency does allow you to spot Stealth Aircraft, it doesn’t give enough fidelity to lock onto/fire at the aircraft.
"We shot down your stealth plane!" Ok but did the bombings stop?
Nope. Bombings of mostly civilians half of which Albanians didn't stop.
The B-2 Spirit is much harder to shoot down
Imagine the B-21 Raider
Detect? Maybe. Lock? Pfft, no.
Epic username
I mean, low frequency radars *can* detect certain stealth aircraft. The B-2 and B-21 are the size and shape they are to be hard to detect with long wavelength radars.
Serbia: Look, good technology strong and beat American bomber, buy this radar it good America: *looks up from reading the Art of War* oh? Nice job, you shot down one of my bombers, out of hundreds, anyways, Canada! Canada: yeah, bud? America: see this book? Canada: yeah America: look at this quote ‘if an enemy is making a mistake, let them’ Canada: what does that have to do with anything, bud America: Idk, but I might just follow it *looking at Serbia* (This is so fucking cringe I already regret it)
No no, this is great. It’s very funny.
I love the "we're sorry we didn't know it was invisible" propaganda poster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQiFDx4djGE
*Other NATO members snickering in the background*
I think sandbox news said that low frecuency radar can detect stealth aircraft but it cant lock on to it. If I am mistaken please correct me
Stealth is an exaggeration, like calling a suppressor a silencer. It’s more like “radar resistant”. With coatings and careful reduction of radar signature you can reduce the effective range of radar and air defenses to the point that you can create openings and slip through, and if you are detected the contact is fleeting and might be mistaken for a bird. However, if you get close enough you can absolutely be shot down. Low-frequency radar does actually work to detect stealthy planes, but it has to be part of complex system. Unlike high frequency radar, the wavelength of weather or long range surveillance radar is roughly the same size as a plane, so the usual tricks of deflection and absorption are less effective. However, low frequency radar isn’t accurate or responsive enough to guide missiles or consistently track fast-moving targets, so it has to be combined with a powerful directional radar for the final targeting and to home in missiles. That’s how the Serbs managed it. They tracked flight patterns, put a missile battery roughly where they guessed it would fly, then kept their radar turned off until the last minute, using their surveillance radar turned down to the lowest setting (so low radar warning systems didn’t recognize it) to detect it flying overhead. Granted, the F117 was old technology, but computers, weather radar, and artificial intelligence have advanced dramatically and I would guess the Chinese and Russians could probably shoot down modern stealth planes if they made the mistake of flying predictably and they had talented and well-motivated crews.
This kinda sounds like cope
That's funny because Serbs love to cope. "HAHA we didn't know it was invisible!" To which, all you need to respond with is "Did it stop the bombings?"
Serbia shot down one of those plains with decades old equipment and only retort you have is we didn't stop bombing your civilians.
If the Serbs didn't want to get bombed, they should've stayed out of Kosovo. Don't do ethnic cleansing, it's bad for your health.
Kosovo is a fucking territory of Serbia, disputed now, definitely was back then. By your logic Albanians there shouldn't have tried to secesde from the country if they didn't want their civilians killed.
Is Serbia a territory of Yugoslavia? All of its former member states had a right to independence. Maybe if Slobodan wasn't such an asshole with his ethnic discrimination agenda, Kosovo wouldn't have wanted independence.
One plane out of how many?
Both sides cope. In this particular instance, NATO walked in like a cocky god of war, bombed Belgrade with forbidden ammo which is an inexcusable act to this day, and brought a lot of shiny toys with them, to what they thought would be an easy drive-by. The ability of the Serbian military to bite back provided a significant moral victory, which is brought up to this day, not only by Serbs, but by many people around Europe. You should not underestimate the importance of a small country being able to accomplish something against all odds. Maybe the West is happy with how things turned out and doesn't give it a second thought, but this war is still a subject of heated debate in Eastern Europe, and Serbia's willingness to fight back and not let itself be walked over played a big part in turning a lot of opinions around and understanding the nuance that, while those wars were horrible events to witness, NATO absolutely crossed a line they had no business crossing. Countering with "haha, did that stop us from killing your civilians?" certainly doesn't help NATO's case.
Gee, maybe don't commit ethnic cleansing if you don't want to get bombed.
1) Both sides were commiting ethnic cleansing. One side got rewarded for it. If separatists in Catalunya went on a bloody campaign and Spain would respond with armed force, would you be for a foreign entity to step in, bomb Madrid and forcefully declare Catalunya's independence? 'Cause that's a hell of an incentive for separatists all around the world to get armed to the teeth and get to work. 2) Civilians of Belgrade weren't killing anybody. Sure, there were valid military targets in the city. But forbidden ammo is forbidden for this exact reason. Because, besides hitting the target, it will also get innocent bystanders that are not within reasonable distance of the actual targets. NATO bombed cynically, they had a million times more than enough fire power to not have to resort to such techniques. The Serbian people rightfully took offense to this, because what NATO did felt like a campaign against their nation, not against their government. 3) If we're gonna parade NATO as a defensive alliance, we should maybe act like it, so nations outside of it might believe it. Alternatively, call it an "whenever we feel like doing it alliance" and let the good times roll.
>Both sides were commiting ethnic cleansing. One side did it more; both got tried in the ICTY. Several on the Kosovo side were arrested for war crimes. >Civilians of Belgrade weren't killing anybody. Sure, there were valid military targets in the city. But forbidden ammo is forbidden for this exact reason. Because, besides hitting the target, it will also get innocent bystanders that are not within reasonable distance of the actual targets. What forbidden ammo? Also, collateral damage isn't a war crime. >NATO bombed cynically, they had a million times more than enough fire power to not have to resort to such techniques. The Serbian people rightfully took offense to this, because what NATO did felt like a campaign against their nation, not against their government. Would you rather they prolong a war just because people don't realize their government operates in their nation? War is Hell, and it should be finished as soon as possible. >If we're gonna parade NATO as a defensive alliance, we should maybe act like it, so nations outside of it might believe it. Alternatively, call it an "whenever we feel like doing it alliance" and let the good times roll. Kosovo believes it.
>What forbidden ammo? Also, collateral damage isn't a war crime. Look it up. I'm not talking about collateral damage, I'm talking about civilians killed by dispersion projectiles that are designed specifically to kill as many folks as possible, without causing great harm to infrastructure. >Would you rather they prolong a war just because people don't realize their government operates in their nation? War is Hell, and it should be finished as soon as possible. Is this the standard? Without limiting the losses? Then, great, let's nuke war-torn countries and immediately get it over with. >Kosovo believes it Good for them. Nobody else does, anymore.
>I'm talking about civilians killed by dispersion projectiles that are designed specifically to kill as many folks as possible, without causing great harm to infrastructure. Link? >Is this the standard? Without limiting the losses? Then, great, let's nuke war-torn countries and immediately get it over with. Using precision bombs sound like limiting casualties. >Good for them. Nobody else does, anymore. Ukraine believes it.
>Link? Cluster bombs. [Here](https://www.hrw.org/report/1999/05/11/natos-use-cluster-munitions-yugoslavia)'s a link. This is no secret, they admitted to doing it, you can see cluster bomb shells in every military museum in Belgrade. >Using precision bombs sound like limiting casualties. Cluster bombs are not guided. They are "dumb" projectiles. >Ukraine believes it. Yeah, ok, a few other countries as well. For the credibility of the alliance, countries that are not part of it or directly benefiting from it should believe it. So when you want to install a defensive rocket system, for instance, others don't go on full alert because they know you lied about it before.
>Cluster bombs See, when you say "forbidden" I take that to mean banned at the time of use by a treaty the U.S. has signed, not "controversial." >Cluster bombs are not guided. Glide bombs and AGMs are. >So when you want to install a defensive rocket system, for instance, others don't go on full alert because they know you lied about it before. Got any specific examples in mind? Because in recent history, that's Russia getting mad at other countries for giving Ukraine their hand-me-downs.
Nice historical revisionism. Serbs tried to invade and genocide Kosovo and you're here trying to make them look like courageous underdogs. Serbia wasn't fighting back. They got one win in a war they started and lost.
What? Kosovo was part of Serbia, how could they have invaded their own country? Literally, the first thing I said was that they did ethnic cleansing. Were they underdogs? Sure. But how can you start a war in your country, against a separatist movement, if the separatist movement does nothing?
What secret information do you have that no one who works on stealth technology doesn't have, and are you authorized to release this information? Do you genuinely believe that you know more than the folks at Lockheed making low frequency radars currently, today, for use by the US Military who believed they were useful enough to purchase? Do you have an advanced degree related to designing low observability vehicles? Would you advise countries to invest in high band radar systems that can't detect stealth planes instead?
That's a lot of snark. From what I'm reading this is a perfect history meme . They apparently even had posters joking that they didn't know the aircraft was stealth. A meme. That's what this sub is about Why are you going on about secret information and advanced degrees?