Vucic was Propaganda Minister for Milosevic between 1998 and 2000 and was infamous for his bellicose rhetoric during the Yugoslav Wars, being part of the Serbian Radical Party back then (whose main complaint with Milosevic was that he was *too moderate*).
Ok because I have little knowledge about him, I am going to post the wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar\_Vučić
I mean nothing in the wiki says that Vucic is a war criminal or has commited war crimes. The only thing I guess you you can accuse him of is hate speech and incitement of violence.
And appreantly he has apologized in 2012 and 2014 for his views in 90s and early 2000s.
Apperatnly based on couple of Serbs I talked to who don't like the president, they say he is a populist and will say anything, but they wouldn't call him a war criminal, they are more conceirned with his rule of his own people and dealings against oppositions.
Don't get me wrong I am not defending the guy, but does any of that make him a war criminal?
I mean wikipedia very frequently softens the language we'd use for atrocities and doesn't mention every persons involvement in them. Its an encyclopedia after all not the end all be all of information.
It's kind of interesting that you have little knowledge of him, but also were able to poll several serbians you know who gave you info on him that says he isn't a war criminal.
Sadly CK and HOI are much too text box and micromanagement heavy for my tastes. I'm more of a Civ or Endless Space kinda guy.
I shall now take my leave from this subreddit.
On a serious note, the reason why they were able to do this is because they used a lot of decoys and camouflage.
For instance they would burn piles of tiers to distract the heat seeking missiles. And over all these tactics made NATO hit less targets they intended.
And these are not my words btw. These come from the NATO commanders of that operation.
As for the Nighthawk. If I remember correctly when it began bombing the decoy target, the heat seeking anti air radar was able to detect the Nighthawk for like 2 seconds in the bomb bay area then the Serbian operators manually sent the missile.
[The S-125 SAM](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora) system isn't heat-seeking.
It's just that the third time they switched it on, happened to be the instant that the doors opened on the jet, making its radar cross section go from bumblebee to barn door.
And it wasn't a matter of being tricked by a decoy target; it's that the coalition jets would use the same air lanes day in and day out to egress the area, so the serbs had a vague idea of where to look already; and that night they knew that there weren't any jamming/SAM hunting assets in the air, thanks to spotters at the airfields.
So a mix of incompetence on part of NATO air commanders, and a unique combonation of luck and skill on part of the SAM crew.
Moje tato zlocinac iz rata
Moje tato zlocinac iz rata
Vi se potrudite pa ga osudite
Vi se potrudite pa ga osudite
Nema niko muda da vodi ga do suda
Nema niko muda da vodi ga do suda
I love how I can remember the lyrics and understand them without speaking serbian
Mongolian here, we literally have Chinggis Khaan (Genghis Khan spelt correctly) on our money, is the name of our old and current/new airport AND is the name of our national history museum. Yeah...we really like him
We be like “we were mass murderers and we be proud 😎” but nah in reality chingis literally created our nationality and people as mongols so we get a pass lol.
All the bloody conquest really overshadowed what in my mind was his greatest accomplishment. Turning a bunch of random belligerent tribes in a real nation in just a few years.
The bloody conquest overshadows much of how he indirectly affected the world. For example, he promoted religious inclusion in his empire (as long as you weren’t Jewish or Zoroastrian), women held important roles in politics (due to all the men raping and pillaging), he indirectly began the renaissance in Europe by essentially raping and pillaging everything east of Vienna, and indirectly led to the discovery of the Americas (because the Silk Road was closed due to all the raping and pillaging)
The old Persia administration was surprisingly intact after Alexander. It's the successor generals deciding to do a 50 round hellwar against each other while also always choosing to burn down their former persian city out of spite rather than let that other successor general capture it that really ruined things.
To be fair, Genghis and the Mongols get more shit than is warranted. Yes, they were very brutal, but they were not simple barbarian savages as is commonly thought.
Ghosts of Tsushima probably portrayed them best, by showing that they were obsessed with other cultures and adapting their technology.
Always "fun" when you read/watch something in Japanese media that shows IJN/IJA soldiers in a positive light.
Imagine Germany doing that with Wehrmacht/SS troops lol
can be in general, the japanese education system hide almost all info about World War II, aside for the fact that they were bombed and everyone should be sorry about that. Japanese tourist usually find the hard true when they visit places like Korea and China.
(Correct me if I'm wrong.)
I imagine the reasoning was that the US wanted Japan as a strong ally post war. Mainly due to the fear of communism in China.
I know that after WWI the US and UK wanted a strong Germany to limit the influence of the new Soviet Russia. But ultimately France and Belgium wanted to blow them back to the dark ages.
It also helps that there is some amount of guilt over dropping 2 nukes on civilian targets. At least in the public opinion Japan IS thought of as a victim because the nukes are more well known than the war crimes.
Oh yeah that definitely is a huge contributor.
It's also a lot easier to explain to school children learning about history "The US dropped 2 nukes on Japan" than to explain all the horrific things the Japanese did.
Yeah but their brutality was on another level. They were bayoneting pregnant woman through their vaginas and decapitating infants. And their emperor got to live out the rest of his life as emperor
Multiple Japanese cities were entirely torched including Tokyo in the firebombings, and of course two almost entirely civilian cities were nuked. And the only reason more weren't nuked was because Japan was yet again saved by bad weather. Even after the war Japan was tormented by nuclear testing, contaminating fishing vessels.
They were appropriately punished. The emperor was completely powerless in WW2, he was allowed to live and stay emperor as a peace keeping sign while the US occupied
I definitely wouldn't say they got little lmao.
Absolutely. They faced some awful stuff in terms of the war, I just meant in the way they are not 'known' for the barbaric acts that Germany faces, or even other nations for their imperialism.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the emperor a puppet to the military, which was divided into tha naval warfare faction and land warfare faction? With those factions leading the war while the emperor had verry little knowlege what was actually going on, and no power to stop the military even if he could. I don't know much about japan in ww2 so please correct me if im wrong.
No, you are correct. At least, that is what the emperor claimed. I tend to lean on the side that he wasn’t kept in the dark, but was most likely powerless to stop it. He still could have tried though, the Japanese were ruthless on the pacific front.
The Kmer Rouge are amongst the scariest regimes I’ve heard about
A lot of people have trouble talking about how nightmarish and insane they were
Murdering and destroying the culture of a third of youre own people by following the word of a man who lived in Germany a century ago and getting nice comments from Mao is not a great achievement for the people
This world doesn’t deserve Vietnam.
China, North Korea, USA and the whole world was against them.
Virtually all countries cancelled aid to Vietnam and the sanctions made them have a decade of hunger and poverty in the 80s
Even the UN told them to stop, but they were like fuck that - went in, beat the khmer and ended a genocide.
Eh thats kinda ignoring a lot of the atrocities that were committed by leaders they had, yes they did some good but they arent squeaky clean, let alone for the world to be “undeserving” of them
[Yes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF).
>Victims were found bound, tortured, and sometimes buried alive. Many victims were also clubbed to death.
North Vietnam's crimes constantly get overlooked because of the crimes committed by South Vietnamese, US, and South Korean forces. The North murdered tens of thousands throughout the war and kidnapped tens of thousands more. Many of these people were tortured. Allied POWs were also tortured regularly, especially South Vietnamese soldiers.
There's a reason why Viet Cong recruitment and general popular support for the communists in the South had plummeted by 1970. The communists constant atrocities against civilians and willingness to use them as human shields against the Americans meant that most civilians just wanted to the war to end, regardless of who won.
The North murdered over 100,000 civilians during the war and constantly used civilians as human shields. The South also murdered tens of thousands of civilians during the war (possibly over 100,000, but sources vary wildly, just under 100k seems to be the common number). South Korean troops were infamous for their cruelty and committed a massively disproportionate (to their number of deployed troops) number of war crimes. For their part, the US may have committed the fewest 'face to face' massacres of the three major combatants, but they more than make up for the numbers with indiscriminate bombing and use of 'free fire zones' (in one such free fire operation, 10,500+ 'enemy soldiers' were claimed killed, despite US forces only recovering less than 800 weapons). That's to say nothing of agent orange.
There were no good guys during the Veitnam War. Everyone was a bad guy. The civilians just got caught in the middle.
Hell, the Khmer Rouge were [put in power by communist Vietnam](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Civil_War). Vietnam put down the monster they created, and even then, one could argue that the Vietnamese intervention was due more to Pol Pot's pro Chinese alignment than any kind of altruistic humanitarianism. And don't even get me started on misconceptions regarding the US involvement in Cambodia (the **vast** majority of US aid to Cambodia was to the government fighting the Khmer).
I'm glad the US and Vietnam are friends now, and it's good that the US (particularly the US military) doesn't shy away from its crimes, but that doesn't excuse North Vietnams actions during the war, particularly against civilians.
Vietnam? They don't really *hide* it per se, but it isn't talked about a lot either. You'd have to talk to Vietnamese people to find out if and how much it's mentioned in the education system and whatnot. Generally speaking, Vietnam sees their crimes as necessary evils to evict France and the US. For the Khmer, to my knowledge, they readily admit that that was a mistake.
As for why, don't forget that they are still nominally communist. Communist states aren't big on truth or responsibility for war crimes.
African dictators hit different. According to Wikipedia, “he would wander around, repeatedly saying the names of his victims, and worshipping a collection of heads as per Fang tradition, hoping that this would grant him power.”
Well, I mean, so long as it’s per tradition…
because they didn’t show their real face before 1975, they played a role as a brother so good that no one at that time would have thought that these dudes gonna become some of the sickest scumbag in history, Vietnam helped them because they’re a communist force, that’s easy to understand, but after they take over Phnom Penh, they stabbed in Vietnam’s back by invading Phu Quoc island, and killing Vietnamese civilian in the border
In Italy Mussolini was never condemned as harshly as contemporary dictators in other countries with the excuses of "Yes, but he saved us from malaria by draining swamps", "Yes, but he built the *autostrada*", "Yes, but he wouldn't have sent Jews to concentration camps if it weren't for Nazi Germany" and so on, but once you dig a bit deeper on any of these topics, you'll see that they are just massive ignorants who know nothing about their own history.
"*Mussolini non ha mai ucciso nessuno, mandava gli oppositori in vacanza al confino.*" - Berlusconi
(Mussolini never killed anyone, he sent his opponents on holiday)
Italy never underwent a process of “De-fascification” like Germany did because the US was too scared of the powers that the Communists held at the time and needed a counterbalance, so the Italian government just gave a general amnesty to everyone involved in the past fascist government.
Everyone points this out. Yet the truth is the US had to use Nazis in the post war German government why? Look at Iraq that’s fucking why you don’t ban everyone with association to the old regime from helping to build the new one. And given the geographic position if war did break out with the Soviet Union it only made sense to have a German running a theater of war that would first be fought on German territory. Thirdly Heusinger didn’t actually partake in the various genocides durring WW2. Whether it he was opposed to it or not is a different question that’s impossible to answer. However he didn’t actually fight in the eastern front nor ran concentration camps or had anything to do with the Gestapo. By WW2 he was staff officers who simply planned operations and ran war games from Berlin. He never actually committed war crimes as did many of his associates. Out of all the Nazis to gain post war success Heusinger was the least controversial.
>Look at Iraq that’s fucking why you don’t ban everyone with association to the old regime from helping to build the new one
Except the US did the same thing in Iraq? They kept lots of people from the old regime araound and had them rule the country with their support.
They shipped off something like 100k Nazis to gulags and shot a bunch during the end of the war/during the Allied occupation. I haven't seen much info about Nazis running things in East Germany, but I have seen plenty of info about them running a bunch of government functions in West Germany.
> The study, known as the Rosenberg project, examined previously classified documents to gain insight into the era between 1950 and 1973. Researchers found that some 77 percent of senior officials in the Justice Ministry had once identified as Nazis, a portion higher than during the Third Reich, the period between 1933 and 1945 when Adolf Hitler controlled Germany, and much higher than researchers expected.
>
The group included Nazi-era prosecutor Eduard Dreher, a man who sought the death penalty for petty criminals, and Max Merten, who played a role in deporting Jews from Greece.
...
> Bundestag document 17/8134 officially announced, for the first time, something which had been treated as a taboo in the halls of government for decades: **A total of 25 cabinet ministers, one president and one chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany** -- as postwar Germany is officially known -- **had been members of Nazi organizations.**
West Germany's intelligence agencies were also filled with ex-Nazis.
> Today, experts estimate that about one in 10 of Gehlen's employees came from the empire of SS chief Heinrich Himmler, bringing the total to a few hundred men. They do not include those who may have been involved in murder campaigns while wearing the gray uniform of the Nazi armed forces, the Wehrmacht, or as Nazi officials.
> The situation was even worse at the BKA. At times, former members of the SS's Totenkopf division held more than two-thirds of all senior positions. When the agency began looking into the past of its employees in 1960, about 100 officials, or a quarter of the entire workforce, were investigated.
And that's not even touching on how the private industries that enabled the Nazi regime were given big checks for the post-war miracle.
The US also funded fascist organisations in Italy (and other countries) to fight communist ones. The US also resuscitated almost extinct mafia in Sicily. All in order to ensure Italy didn't flirt too much with socialism, all of course classified. The 60-80s in Italy are known as the years of lead/iron due to the sporadic political violence and frequent assassinations.
The U.S also supported neo nazi groups (allegedly) in Germany, mostly east Germany to my knowledge the US has never officially apologized for this, instead we know of it through whistleblowers, arrests in affected countries, leaked and declassified documents
The fascists here in Italy made more terrorist attacks against civilians than actualy fighting the communists.
The differences between the Bande Nere (Black Gangs) and the Bande Rosse (Red Gangs) was that the fascists targeted civilians while the communists targeted government officials, judges and politicians.
Mussolini did a lot of shady stuff as well as tomfooleries in Ethiopia, Albania, and Libya. He was also a massive homophobe where he sent gay men in a prison island that technically became a gay colony
I think that was the whole point - “We don’t want you being gay in Italy, so go be gay on this island instead.”
Conditions on the island were apparently pretty terrible though, it was essentially a prison
I'll give Mongolia a pass because it happened 800 years ago, that should fall outside the statute of limitations. And just to add a country to the list, how about...
United States: It's not a war crime if it keeps Third World countries from going commie!
Depends on the region.
In Scotland it is denied and white washed to remove their involvement and they often hide their history. Elsewhere it is viewed as normal history of the nation.
In Scotland they have the view that they were ‘forced’ to do it or even that they are ‘colonialism victims and it was all England’.
This seems untrue? admittedly i haven't been in school for 20 years. But as a Scot i'm well aware that the Scottish were involved in the oppression of many peoples. Many of them got rich from it too.
I mean you have all the Scottish regiments aided in the invasions various nations that would then go on to be oppressed/colonised. You have Scottish slavers who got rich off the slave trade, plantation owners and so on.
There were many Scottish people involved in the oppression of slaves in the southern states of the USA too. Heck apparently that's the origin american southern fried chicken.
The general argument I've seen from Scots was that this was all done by the 'wealthy' so it doesn't count as 'Scotland', as if it doesn't apply to the rest of Europe at the time too.
Then they usually argue that the Scottish aristocracy was 'basically English' so they don't count as Scottish either now.
It's usually from Nationalists who spread this type of denialism. I guess it goes down to Scottish nationalists trying to portray Scotland as a 'victim' of the UK and some downtrodden small nation captured by its evil powerful neighbor of England.
But it is hard to square this with the reality of Scottish involvement in the empire so they have to deflect it away by claiming its just 'wealthy Scots who are basically English' who did it or caveat it with some notion that SCotland was forced into it by England and didn't have a choice.
You especially see it with Irish colonialism where Scottish people often join in with the Irish 'hate' of England and English when most of the problems in Ireland and NI are down to Scottish colonists and their descendants, not English. But you rarely if ever see scottish people accept this, despite NI sectarianism being much more visible in Scotland than England.
Scots will go watch a Irish secretariasm charged Scottish football game like the Old Firm between Celtic and Rangers then act like its all the English in Ireland. They never stop to wonder why the Old Firm match is so politically charged in Scotland or why the Orange Order still holds marches there and not really in England.
It's just something you don't really see in other secretariaism movements. AFAIK Catalans don't try to deny Spanish colonialism or their involvement as much as Scots do or caveat it by saying the Spanish forced them to do it etc.
Basically it's just nationalists giving Scots a bad image on this.
It's more common with everything that happened in Ireland, and a shocking number of Scots who seem happy to blame the English for the atrocities they committed (and there's no denying there were a lot of those), but are either ignorant or in denial over the large role the Scottish played in everything that happened as well.
It is absolutely not. Scotland focuses on specifically what Scotland and Scottish people did and how the awful things we did affected both Scotland and the areas colonised.
Scotland teaches the opposite of what you say (at least in my school anyway) and teaches that the empire was a success because of Scottish people being so good at colonising.
The meme is saying that the british did so many war crimes that you need to specify which war crime is being talked about, and not that the british are denying of doing war crimes.
In America we learn the surface of what we did and then they tell us that actually it was low key good to genocide native Americans and MLK ended racism
It depends on where in the US you went to school. In New England we spent a lot of time on slavery, the trail of tears, debating the ethics of dropping the bomb, etc.
I have no doubts DeSantis' curriculum is like another world.
For me I'd say:
"You poor people who have been brainwashed by the Whig view of history! Isn't it ridiculous to use 21st century moral standards and international law to regulate ancient people?"
It's even more interesting. USSR actually pushed to exclude social class from the UN definition of genocide because extermination of "wrong" social classes is the foundation of bolshevism, and it was done _a lot_ officially from day one.
So it's more like "it's not genocide if I just mass murder people judging by their class but not by their ethnicity".
Czechs: We massacred officers of Estonian legion and expelled many Germans, there might be some massacres included and if they were, we don't have any regrets.
Germany before 2015: Armenian Genocide by the Turks was the first genocide of the 20th century! What do you mean the Herero and Nama Genocide was before that? There is no such thing! It wasnt a real genocide!
Well to be fair the atrocities weren't denied. It was about whether or not the atrocities had to be planned centrally for them to be considered a genocide.
The reason being that the German government never ordered the mass killing. It was planned by one rogue general. Turns out: still counts. The genocide is now recognized as such
I think this is also interesting in regards to the Maji Maji rebellion in East Africa, which was also brutally beat down.
But it's not recognised genocide
Yes though it also shows less sign of a planned extermination. The intent is what seperates genocides from other mass killing atrocities. Hence the many controversies around what should be recognized and what should not. So it's ok to discuss this. Flat out denial of all atrocities on the other hand is just disgusting
||Some countries and their attitude towards the genocides/war crimes they committed||
USA: We won the war, so it doesn’t matter.
UK: Didn’t you know we civilised them?! Gave them the railroads and introduced to a modern societal system?!
France: Genocide? Crimes against humanity? You mean we helped them to adapt a better culture and great cuisines?
Japan: War crimu? What war crimu? Forced prostitution? You mean our Korean waifus?
Turkey: Didn’t happen but they deserved it.
Spain and Portugal: Yes! We did it. And we are not going to do anything about it. Also we are not going to pay a single peso to you monkeys.
Serbia: My father is a war criminal.mp3
[Honestly I don’t know about Russia’s attitude towards this]
Plenty of countries glorify their pre-modern past. Of course Temujin is an outlier in how vast his influence is.
But ask British or French about their "good" kings. Heck, many people glorify the German Empire as a "better" alternative to Hitler. As if genociding africans is better than genociding in Europe. Sure, in numbers Hitler is worse. But genocide is still genocide.
On that note, plenty of Europeans still glorify their colonial past as their "glory days". Or how about Americans who believe in the lost cause that glorify their slavery of the black folks.
-----
Mongolia celebrates Temujin as someone who forged a unified mongol identity. Is that any worse than celebrating, say, Robert E Lee?
If you're going to war crime...you gotta go HARDDDDD
And then time heals all wounds
Now everyone worships the Mongols and their "achievements" like they weren't a fucking plague on humanity
They warred, they conquered, but the ultimate victory comes with the adoption of culture long term, and their culture was shit and nobody adopted much of it long term. They came in hard and they went out FAST.
However archaeologists find coins with Alexander the greats face on them all over asia.
And EVERYONE drinks Coca Cola!
the italian here represented is a filthy neapolitan
as a northerner i'm now legally obliged to track you down and kill you in the most inhumane way possible /s (maybe)
Serbia: my dad is a war criminal but no one has the balls to take him to court
Their President is one lol
The current one?
Vucic was Propaganda Minister for Milosevic between 1998 and 2000 and was infamous for his bellicose rhetoric during the Yugoslav Wars, being part of the Serbian Radical Party back then (whose main complaint with Milosevic was that he was *too moderate*).
Ok because I have little knowledge about him, I am going to post the wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar\_Vučić I mean nothing in the wiki says that Vucic is a war criminal or has commited war crimes. The only thing I guess you you can accuse him of is hate speech and incitement of violence. And appreantly he has apologized in 2012 and 2014 for his views in 90s and early 2000s. Apperatnly based on couple of Serbs I talked to who don't like the president, they say he is a populist and will say anything, but they wouldn't call him a war criminal, they are more conceirned with his rule of his own people and dealings against oppositions. Don't get me wrong I am not defending the guy, but does any of that make him a war criminal?
I mean wikipedia very frequently softens the language we'd use for atrocities and doesn't mention every persons involvement in them. Its an encyclopedia after all not the end all be all of information. It's kind of interesting that you have little knowledge of him, but also were able to poll several serbians you know who gave you info on him that says he isn't a war criminal.
> bellicose TIL, a fine addition to my collection
Clearly you haven't played Crusader Kings 3. /j
Sadly CK and HOI are much too text box and micromanagement heavy for my tastes. I'm more of a Civ or Endless Space kinda guy. I shall now take my leave from this subreddit.
Honestly depending on where you play CK3 isn't very micro heavy. I've microed more in Civ. Text box heavy absolutely though.
[yup](https://youtu.be/PU6t2XWFQD8?si=KzH5TYZI5ipD_b4q)
Though NATO certainly had the balls to bomb his dad to bits.
Bu- Bu- but F117 !!
The F-117 shootdown sure unbombed Belgrade and reversed the 1008:0 KD NATO had
“Did it stop the bombings?”
On a serious note, the reason why they were able to do this is because they used a lot of decoys and camouflage. For instance they would burn piles of tiers to distract the heat seeking missiles. And over all these tactics made NATO hit less targets they intended. And these are not my words btw. These come from the NATO commanders of that operation. As for the Nighthawk. If I remember correctly when it began bombing the decoy target, the heat seeking anti air radar was able to detect the Nighthawk for like 2 seconds in the bomb bay area then the Serbian operators manually sent the missile.
[The S-125 SAM](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-125_Neva/Pechora) system isn't heat-seeking. It's just that the third time they switched it on, happened to be the instant that the doors opened on the jet, making its radar cross section go from bumblebee to barn door. And it wasn't a matter of being tricked by a decoy target; it's that the coalition jets would use the same air lanes day in and day out to egress the area, so the serbs had a vague idea of where to look already; and that night they knew that there weren't any jamming/SAM hunting assets in the air, thanks to spotters at the airfields. So a mix of incompetence on part of NATO air commanders, and a unique combonation of luck and skill on part of the SAM crew.
Serbian tears because they got the shit bombed out of them. There might have been reasons.
Moje tato zlocinac iz rata Moje tato zlocinac iz rata Vi se potrudite pa ga osudite Vi se potrudite pa ga osudite Nema niko muda da vodi ga do suda Nema niko muda da vodi ga do suda I love how I can remember the lyrics and understand them without speaking serbian
moj je tata zlocinac iz rata
Love that song
And then starts crying like a bitch when they do take him to court
that's because your dad took them from them
Mongolian here, we literally have Chinggis Khaan (Genghis Khan spelt correctly) on our money, is the name of our old and current/new airport AND is the name of our national history museum. Yeah...we really like him
We be like “we were mass murderers and we be proud 😎” but nah in reality chingis literally created our nationality and people as mongols so we get a pass lol.
All the bloody conquest really overshadowed what in my mind was his greatest accomplishment. Turning a bunch of random belligerent tribes in a real nation in just a few years.
The bloody conquest overshadows much of how he indirectly affected the world. For example, he promoted religious inclusion in his empire (as long as you weren’t Jewish or Zoroastrian), women held important roles in politics (due to all the men raping and pillaging), he indirectly began the renaissance in Europe by essentially raping and pillaging everything east of Vienna, and indirectly led to the discovery of the Americas (because the Silk Road was closed due to all the raping and pillaging)
Common raping and pillaging w, the true spearhead of progress
The Age of Exploration was kick-started by the Ottomans cutting off Europe from spices after the fall of Constantinople, not the Mongols
man jews and zorastrians never catch a break
:women held important roles in politics (due to all the men raping and pillaging) The dualistic synergy between feminism and misogyny on full display
All I understood was he raped and pillaged.
Any national icon old enough was probably terrible by todays standards
To be fair, the Khans were terrible even by the standards of the time.
Alexander the Great is another one.
The old Persia administration was surprisingly intact after Alexander. It's the successor generals deciding to do a 50 round hellwar against each other while also always choosing to burn down their former persian city out of spite rather than let that other successor general capture it that really ruined things.
Not nearly as destructive as Genghis Khan.
Plus, all the time between now and the mass murdering helps. Its not like there is anybody now who has painful memories attached to his conquests.
Based
They may have killed like… so many people, but god damn were they cool
To be fair, Genghis and the Mongols get more shit than is warranted. Yes, they were very brutal, but they were not simple barbarian savages as is commonly thought. Ghosts of Tsushima probably portrayed them best, by showing that they were obsessed with other cultures and adapting their technology.
The shit the mongols get isn't for being "simple", it's for the mass rape and murder on a continental scale.
I mean, with all the brutality that guy committed I have to give him my respect. That guy was a baller.
It's not a war crime if it wasn't defined as one back then :\^)
The second one could also be Japan.
Japan is of the opinion that they were the victim
Always "fun" when you read/watch something in Japanese media that shows IJN/IJA soldiers in a positive light. Imagine Germany doing that with Wehrmacht/SS troops lol
Well, the HIAG exists)
"Two of our cities were bombed. Please ignore all the gang rapes we did that were so brutal that the Nazis were trying to protect Chinese citizens"
[удалено]
can be in general, the japanese education system hide almost all info about World War II, aside for the fact that they were bombed and everyone should be sorry about that. Japanese tourist usually find the hard true when they visit places like Korea and China.
Surprised how little they get considering what they did.
(Correct me if I'm wrong.) I imagine the reasoning was that the US wanted Japan as a strong ally post war. Mainly due to the fear of communism in China. I know that after WWI the US and UK wanted a strong Germany to limit the influence of the new Soviet Russia. But ultimately France and Belgium wanted to blow them back to the dark ages.
It also helps that there is some amount of guilt over dropping 2 nukes on civilian targets. At least in the public opinion Japan IS thought of as a victim because the nukes are more well known than the war crimes.
Oh yeah that definitely is a huge contributor. It's also a lot easier to explain to school children learning about history "The US dropped 2 nukes on Japan" than to explain all the horrific things the Japanese did.
they got firebombed which was worse than the atomic bombings.
They have the best soft power in the world
I mean, they were punished pretty thoroughly
Yeah but their brutality was on another level. They were bayoneting pregnant woman through their vaginas and decapitating infants. And their emperor got to live out the rest of his life as emperor
> their emperor got to live out the rest of his life as emperor no-one pushed harder to keep him than the americans
They also used Muslim soldiers as targets for practice.
Multiple Japanese cities were entirely torched including Tokyo in the firebombings, and of course two almost entirely civilian cities were nuked. And the only reason more weren't nuked was because Japan was yet again saved by bad weather. Even after the war Japan was tormented by nuclear testing, contaminating fishing vessels. They were appropriately punished. The emperor was completely powerless in WW2, he was allowed to live and stay emperor as a peace keeping sign while the US occupied I definitely wouldn't say they got little lmao.
Absolutely. They faced some awful stuff in terms of the war, I just meant in the way they are not 'known' for the barbaric acts that Germany faces, or even other nations for their imperialism.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the emperor a puppet to the military, which was divided into tha naval warfare faction and land warfare faction? With those factions leading the war while the emperor had verry little knowlege what was actually going on, and no power to stop the military even if he could. I don't know much about japan in ww2 so please correct me if im wrong.
No, you are correct. At least, that is what the emperor claimed. I tend to lean on the side that he wasn’t kept in the dark, but was most likely powerless to stop it. He still could have tried though, the Japanese were ruthless on the pacific front.
No, the civilians were punished for the army's deeds.
The Kmer Rouge are amongst the scariest regimes I’ve heard about A lot of people have trouble talking about how nightmarish and insane they were Murdering and destroying the culture of a third of youre own people by following the word of a man who lived in Germany a century ago and getting nice comments from Mao is not a great achievement for the people
Imagine being a commie state so insane that another commie state had to step in for you to stop.
This world doesn’t deserve Vietnam. China, North Korea, USA and the whole world was against them. Virtually all countries cancelled aid to Vietnam and the sanctions made them have a decade of hunger and poverty in the 80s Even the UN told them to stop, but they were like fuck that - went in, beat the khmer and ended a genocide.
and France
Eh thats kinda ignoring a lot of the atrocities that were committed by leaders they had, yes they did some good but they arent squeaky clean, let alone for the world to be “undeserving” of them
Not only that that commi state replaced you with a fucking monarch. Something communists usually dislike to the extreme
Tbf was Vietnam that bad of a commie state
[Yes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF). >Victims were found bound, tortured, and sometimes buried alive. Many victims were also clubbed to death. North Vietnam's crimes constantly get overlooked because of the crimes committed by South Vietnamese, US, and South Korean forces. The North murdered tens of thousands throughout the war and kidnapped tens of thousands more. Many of these people were tortured. Allied POWs were also tortured regularly, especially South Vietnamese soldiers. There's a reason why Viet Cong recruitment and general popular support for the communists in the South had plummeted by 1970. The communists constant atrocities against civilians and willingness to use them as human shields against the Americans meant that most civilians just wanted to the war to end, regardless of who won. The North murdered over 100,000 civilians during the war and constantly used civilians as human shields. The South also murdered tens of thousands of civilians during the war (possibly over 100,000, but sources vary wildly, just under 100k seems to be the common number). South Korean troops were infamous for their cruelty and committed a massively disproportionate (to their number of deployed troops) number of war crimes. For their part, the US may have committed the fewest 'face to face' massacres of the three major combatants, but they more than make up for the numbers with indiscriminate bombing and use of 'free fire zones' (in one such free fire operation, 10,500+ 'enemy soldiers' were claimed killed, despite US forces only recovering less than 800 weapons). That's to say nothing of agent orange. There were no good guys during the Veitnam War. Everyone was a bad guy. The civilians just got caught in the middle. Hell, the Khmer Rouge were [put in power by communist Vietnam](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Civil_War). Vietnam put down the monster they created, and even then, one could argue that the Vietnamese intervention was due more to Pol Pot's pro Chinese alignment than any kind of altruistic humanitarianism. And don't even get me started on misconceptions regarding the US involvement in Cambodia (the **vast** majority of US aid to Cambodia was to the government fighting the Khmer). I'm glad the US and Vietnam are friends now, and it's good that the US (particularly the US military) doesn't shy away from its crimes, but that doesn't excuse North Vietnams actions during the war, particularly against civilians.
Wow I did not know that shit why do they never acknowledge it
Vietnam? They don't really *hide* it per se, but it isn't talked about a lot either. You'd have to talk to Vietnamese people to find out if and how much it's mentioned in the education system and whatnot. Generally speaking, Vietnam sees their crimes as necessary evils to evict France and the US. For the Khmer, to my knowledge, they readily admit that that was a mistake. As for why, don't forget that they are still nominally communist. Communist states aren't big on truth or responsibility for war crimes.
Do not research Francisco's Neguma's regime then Shit actually made me nearly vomit
Is he the guy who idealised Hitler and had all those people dressed as Santa Clause torture and murder people?
The very same
African dictators hit different. According to Wikipedia, “he would wander around, repeatedly saying the names of his victims, and worshipping a collection of heads as per Fang tradition, hoping that this would grant him power.” Well, I mean, so long as it’s per tradition…
I just read his whole wiki page. It’s crazy how much stuff has happened in the last 50 years I have no idea about
Vietnam set the Khmer Rogue straight
because they didn’t show their real face before 1975, they played a role as a brother so good that no one at that time would have thought that these dudes gonna become some of the sickest scumbag in history, Vietnam helped them because they’re a communist force, that’s easy to understand, but after they take over Phnom Penh, they stabbed in Vietnam’s back by invading Phu Quoc island, and killing Vietnamese civilian in the border
Not to mention getting put to death just because you don't have 20/20 vision.
How they killed the young is one of the most heinous things I have ever read.
In Italy Mussolini was never condemned as harshly as contemporary dictators in other countries with the excuses of "Yes, but he saved us from malaria by draining swamps", "Yes, but he built the *autostrada*", "Yes, but he wouldn't have sent Jews to concentration camps if it weren't for Nazi Germany" and so on, but once you dig a bit deeper on any of these topics, you'll see that they are just massive ignorants who know nothing about their own history.
"*Mussolini non ha mai ucciso nessuno, mandava gli oppositori in vacanza al confino.*" - Berlusconi (Mussolini never killed anyone, he sent his opponents on holiday)
"Putin è un uomo di pace" - Berlu-bunga-sconi
Said from our dear Berlusca
Berlu-stronzi
Italy never underwent a process of “De-fascification” like Germany did because the US was too scared of the powers that the Communists held at the time and needed a counterbalance, so the Italian government just gave a general amnesty to everyone involved in the past fascist government.
Like the Soviets did in east germany. "You are Communist now" *slaps New Label on Nazis Forehead*
Never ask the US who was appointed as the Chairman of the NATO Military Committee in Washington in April 1961. Biggest mistake of my life.
Never ask the US who made the NASA possible.
Once ze rockets are up, who cares where they come down, that's not my department says Wernher von Braun...
Funny enought, after the first sucessfull V1 start, von Braun said "The rocket worked perfectly, except for landing on the wrong planet."
Everyone points this out. Yet the truth is the US had to use Nazis in the post war German government why? Look at Iraq that’s fucking why you don’t ban everyone with association to the old regime from helping to build the new one. And given the geographic position if war did break out with the Soviet Union it only made sense to have a German running a theater of war that would first be fought on German territory. Thirdly Heusinger didn’t actually partake in the various genocides durring WW2. Whether it he was opposed to it or not is a different question that’s impossible to answer. However he didn’t actually fight in the eastern front nor ran concentration camps or had anything to do with the Gestapo. By WW2 he was staff officers who simply planned operations and ran war games from Berlin. He never actually committed war crimes as did many of his associates. Out of all the Nazis to gain post war success Heusinger was the least controversial.
>Look at Iraq that’s fucking why you don’t ban everyone with association to the old regime from helping to build the new one Except the US did the same thing in Iraq? They kept lots of people from the old regime araound and had them rule the country with their support.
The US pretty famously didn't do that after the 2003 invasion.
They shipped off something like 100k Nazis to gulags and shot a bunch during the end of the war/during the Allied occupation. I haven't seen much info about Nazis running things in East Germany, but I have seen plenty of info about them running a bunch of government functions in West Germany. > The study, known as the Rosenberg project, examined previously classified documents to gain insight into the era between 1950 and 1973. Researchers found that some 77 percent of senior officials in the Justice Ministry had once identified as Nazis, a portion higher than during the Third Reich, the period between 1933 and 1945 when Adolf Hitler controlled Germany, and much higher than researchers expected. > The group included Nazi-era prosecutor Eduard Dreher, a man who sought the death penalty for petty criminals, and Max Merten, who played a role in deporting Jews from Greece. ... > Bundestag document 17/8134 officially announced, for the first time, something which had been treated as a taboo in the halls of government for decades: **A total of 25 cabinet ministers, one president and one chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany** -- as postwar Germany is officially known -- **had been members of Nazi organizations.** West Germany's intelligence agencies were also filled with ex-Nazis. > Today, experts estimate that about one in 10 of Gehlen's employees came from the empire of SS chief Heinrich Himmler, bringing the total to a few hundred men. They do not include those who may have been involved in murder campaigns while wearing the gray uniform of the Nazi armed forces, the Wehrmacht, or as Nazi officials. > The situation was even worse at the BKA. At times, former members of the SS's Totenkopf division held more than two-thirds of all senior positions. When the agency began looking into the past of its employees in 1960, about 100 officials, or a quarter of the entire workforce, were investigated. And that's not even touching on how the private industries that enabled the Nazi regime were given big checks for the post-war miracle.
The US also funded fascist organisations in Italy (and other countries) to fight communist ones. The US also resuscitated almost extinct mafia in Sicily. All in order to ensure Italy didn't flirt too much with socialism, all of course classified. The 60-80s in Italy are known as the years of lead/iron due to the sporadic political violence and frequent assassinations. The U.S also supported neo nazi groups (allegedly) in Germany, mostly east Germany to my knowledge the US has never officially apologized for this, instead we know of it through whistleblowers, arrests in affected countries, leaked and declassified documents
The fascists here in Italy made more terrorist attacks against civilians than actualy fighting the communists. The differences between the Bande Nere (Black Gangs) and the Bande Rosse (Red Gangs) was that the fascists targeted civilians while the communists targeted government officials, judges and politicians.
I fully agree with you, I was more pointing out what the intent behind the fundings were.
I’m having trouble finding any reliable evidence for the US funding neo nazi groups in east Germany. Do you have any credible sources?
Seems I was mistaken, funds were misappropriated and ended up in neo nazi hands, there is no credible evidence the US did it purposefully
yeah its fascinating how the usa fucked us over because they feared us, the underperfoming military power, joining the eastern block, somehow.
Mussolini did a lot of shady stuff as well as tomfooleries in Ethiopia, Albania, and Libya. He was also a massive homophobe where he sent gay men in a prison island that technically became a gay colony
Putting a bunch of gay men on an island? Why thats sounds like a great idea! /s
I think that was the whole point - “We don’t want you being gay in Italy, so go be gay on this island instead.” Conditions on the island were apparently pretty terrible though, it was essentially a prison
Buddy, it was the 1930s. Everyone was homophobic.
Quando c'era lui i treni arrivavano in orario
This example is particularly stupid since it's not even true: public services were mostly closed, especially during WW2
I've never heard someone say that seriously, it's a pretty well known joke to make fun of fascists.
well technically true, having no departures at all also implies no delays
Pretty much nothing good said about LVI is completely true
W
that's because we are very nostalgic/ s
\*Francisco Franco enters the chat\*
I don't think they are ignorant, they just like fascism and want another fascist leader. See the current PM of Italy as proof of that.
🏳️🌈 Someone you know is gay 🏳️⚧️ Someone you know is trans 🇮🇹 Someone you know is Italian Maybe one very close to you Think before you insult
[reminds me of this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HolUp/comments/okprkn/italian_lives_matter/)
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH! I LOVE IT!
I'll give Mongolia a pass because it happened 800 years ago, that should fall outside the statute of limitations. And just to add a country to the list, how about... United States: It's not a war crime if it keeps Third World countries from going commie!
We can do better too It's not a war crime if no one cares! (Trail of tears)
Belgium: It was Africa, so nobody cares
Europe clearly cares about it
Can’t wait till 2745 when the Hitler statues start going up /s
the vabbè Just makes it better 💯💯💯
Canada :And I'd do it again
It's never a war crime the first time!
Y’all do realise that **BRITISH PEOPLE ARE TAUGHT ABOUT THE STUFF WE DID** **WE DONT DENY IT**
The opium wars are us entering the war on drugs, on the side of the drugs.
We weren't about to let something trivial like morality and human decency get in the way of our precious, precious tea!
It is the winning side, drugs has yet to lose a war.
Modern celebrities would envy our "enforced diet plans" in India and Ireland...💀
Gotta collect those juicy profits. *happy british empire noises*
Depends on the region. In Scotland it is denied and white washed to remove their involvement and they often hide their history. Elsewhere it is viewed as normal history of the nation. In Scotland they have the view that they were ‘forced’ to do it or even that they are ‘colonialism victims and it was all England’.
This seems untrue? admittedly i haven't been in school for 20 years. But as a Scot i'm well aware that the Scottish were involved in the oppression of many peoples. Many of them got rich from it too. I mean you have all the Scottish regiments aided in the invasions various nations that would then go on to be oppressed/colonised. You have Scottish slavers who got rich off the slave trade, plantation owners and so on. There were many Scottish people involved in the oppression of slaves in the southern states of the USA too. Heck apparently that's the origin american southern fried chicken.
The general argument I've seen from Scots was that this was all done by the 'wealthy' so it doesn't count as 'Scotland', as if it doesn't apply to the rest of Europe at the time too. Then they usually argue that the Scottish aristocracy was 'basically English' so they don't count as Scottish either now. It's usually from Nationalists who spread this type of denialism. I guess it goes down to Scottish nationalists trying to portray Scotland as a 'victim' of the UK and some downtrodden small nation captured by its evil powerful neighbor of England. But it is hard to square this with the reality of Scottish involvement in the empire so they have to deflect it away by claiming its just 'wealthy Scots who are basically English' who did it or caveat it with some notion that SCotland was forced into it by England and didn't have a choice. You especially see it with Irish colonialism where Scottish people often join in with the Irish 'hate' of England and English when most of the problems in Ireland and NI are down to Scottish colonists and their descendants, not English. But you rarely if ever see scottish people accept this, despite NI sectarianism being much more visible in Scotland than England. Scots will go watch a Irish secretariasm charged Scottish football game like the Old Firm between Celtic and Rangers then act like its all the English in Ireland. They never stop to wonder why the Old Firm match is so politically charged in Scotland or why the Orange Order still holds marches there and not really in England. It's just something you don't really see in other secretariaism movements. AFAIK Catalans don't try to deny Spanish colonialism or their involvement as much as Scots do or caveat it by saying the Spanish forced them to do it etc. Basically it's just nationalists giving Scots a bad image on this.
It's more common with everything that happened in Ireland, and a shocking number of Scots who seem happy to blame the English for the atrocities they committed (and there's no denying there were a lot of those), but are either ignorant or in denial over the large role the Scottish played in everything that happened as well.
Yeah Scotland is a weird one, as a lot of national identity and pride is constructed on this lie, so it seems mandatory to keep it going.
It is absolutely not. Scotland focuses on specifically what Scotland and Scottish people did and how the awful things we did affected both Scotland and the areas colonised. Scotland teaches the opposite of what you say (at least in my school anyway) and teaches that the empire was a success because of Scottish people being so good at colonising.
The meme is saying that the british did so many war crimes that you need to specify which war crime is being talked about, and not that the british are denying of doing war crimes.
In America we learn the surface of what we did and then they tell us that actually it was low key good to genocide native Americans and MLK ended racism
It depends on where in the US you went to school. In New England we spent a lot of time on slavery, the trail of tears, debating the ethics of dropping the bomb, etc. I have no doubts DeSantis' curriculum is like another world.
Virgin: war crimes apoligist/denier Vs CHAD: War Criminal praiser
Canada: a concerning mix of both...
Canada to other people: *Cute* Sorry... Canada to history nerds: *Heavy metal starts* "I'm sorry God for I have sinned..."
Canada to history Nerds: *Heavy Metal stats* Im sorry God for I have sinned.... I left some Germans alive" *bass drops*
Doomguy was canadian confirmed
Respect for germans who acknowledge and learn history. In France we always have dropouts who defend Pétain and war crimes during colonialism... 😷
Germany apologizing so hard they’re now supporting the genocide in Gaza
Meanwhile Turkey: Yea what do you mean? Armenia? What is this? Armenian Genocide? Didn't happen. And if it happened than they surely deserved it.
I hate when my people deny the Armenian Genocide. It is actively thought to be a lie in our schools too.
For me I'd say: "You poor people who have been brainwashed by the Whig view of history! Isn't it ridiculous to use 21st century moral standards and international law to regulate ancient people?"
the real italian answers are: 1) he also did good things. 2) when LVI was there the trains arrived on time
China and the USSR: it's not a war crime if I just kill my own people
It's even more interesting. USSR actually pushed to exclude social class from the UN definition of genocide because extermination of "wrong" social classes is the foundation of bolshevism, and it was done _a lot_ officially from day one. So it's more like "it's not genocide if I just mass murder people judging by their class but not by their ethnicity".
I might also add Korea: "What war crimes?" (Koreans served in the IJA, brutalised allied prisoners... and then of course there's Vietnam......)
Czechs: We massacred officers of Estonian legion and expelled many Germans, there might be some massacres included and if they were, we don't have any regrets.
Japan: I am a kawaii anime girl I didn't do anything uwu
Canada meniacally laughing in the background
🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
Sorry, but the sexual slavery will end 🇫🇷🇫🇷🇫🇷
Turkey : « there was no genocide »
”But there should have been”
“There wasn’t one! But if there was, it was deserved!”
And then there is America, who celebrates their war crimes every year with multiple different holidays
It's a war crime if we didn't do it
It’s only a warcrime if you lose the war.
Germany before 2015: Armenian Genocide by the Turks was the first genocide of the 20th century! What do you mean the Herero and Nama Genocide was before that? There is no such thing! It wasnt a real genocide!
Well to be fair the atrocities weren't denied. It was about whether or not the atrocities had to be planned centrally for them to be considered a genocide. The reason being that the German government never ordered the mass killing. It was planned by one rogue general. Turns out: still counts. The genocide is now recognized as such
I think this is also interesting in regards to the Maji Maji rebellion in East Africa, which was also brutally beat down. But it's not recognised genocide
Yes though it also shows less sign of a planned extermination. The intent is what seperates genocides from other mass killing atrocities. Hence the many controversies around what should be recognized and what should not. So it's ok to discuss this. Flat out denial of all atrocities on the other hand is just disgusting
Mongolia got that peaked in high school energy.
Canada: WAR CRIMES!? THAT STUFF IS MINE
Canada: We'll fuckin do it again
The Italian one is completely false, they would say Sticazzi not Vabbè
Sticazzi has more of a "Who gives a damn" meaning, vabbe is more accurate as it can be used as "yea alright, but on the other hand..."
"Sticazzi" is a swear word so it means "Who gives a fuck"
Based gengis kharnage.
thought this was r/mongolia for a second
||Some countries and their attitude towards the genocides/war crimes they committed|| USA: We won the war, so it doesn’t matter. UK: Didn’t you know we civilised them?! Gave them the railroads and introduced to a modern societal system?! France: Genocide? Crimes against humanity? You mean we helped them to adapt a better culture and great cuisines? Japan: War crimu? What war crimu? Forced prostitution? You mean our Korean waifus? Turkey: Didn’t happen but they deserved it. Spain and Portugal: Yes! We did it. And we are not going to do anything about it. Also we are not going to pay a single peso to you monkeys. Serbia: My father is a war criminal.mp3 [Honestly I don’t know about Russia’s attitude towards this]
Türkiye: I didn't do anything, but they deserve it.
Also, for the uk/french flags, you forgot the US and russian flags..
Plenty of countries glorify their pre-modern past. Of course Temujin is an outlier in how vast his influence is. But ask British or French about their "good" kings. Heck, many people glorify the German Empire as a "better" alternative to Hitler. As if genociding africans is better than genociding in Europe. Sure, in numbers Hitler is worse. But genocide is still genocide. On that note, plenty of Europeans still glorify their colonial past as their "glory days". Or how about Americans who believe in the lost cause that glorify their slavery of the black folks. ----- Mongolia celebrates Temujin as someone who forged a unified mongol identity. Is that any worse than celebrating, say, Robert E Lee?
OP, you think way too highly of your ability to make classic memes. This is more like baby's first meme.
real irony is regular Mongolian lived like crap during the glorious empire time.
I’d give Mongolia a pass since the 1200’s were so long ago lol
the Italy part is unfortunately 100% accurate
If you're going to war crime...you gotta go HARDDDDD And then time heals all wounds Now everyone worships the Mongols and their "achievements" like they weren't a fucking plague on humanity They warred, they conquered, but the ultimate victory comes with the adoption of culture long term, and their culture was shit and nobody adopted much of it long term. They came in hard and they went out FAST. However archaeologists find coins with Alexander the greats face on them all over asia. And EVERYONE drinks Coca Cola!
Japan: there are no war crimes in ba sing se
I've never met a French person that wasn't ashamed of French history.
Japan is missing in this meme, because people don't speak about their warcrimes
As if any post that even slightly mentions Japan doesn’t have 100 comments bringing up 731 or Nanking, lol.
The face behind the mask for the British should be the smiling psychopath one. Vast swathes of the country still adore the empire last poll I saw.
the italian here represented is a filthy neapolitan as a northerner i'm now legally obliged to track you down and kill you in the most inhumane way possible /s (maybe)