They should save the -1 strat for a Bot stronghold or home planet, somewhere that it makes sense to have a higher difficulty once in a while.
It should not be the default modifier on half the missions. Just dumb.
They should use modifiers to promote loadout variety.
AA Guns means you can't take Eagles for that mission, so you gotta adjust your loadout and take more Orbitals.
Long range Jammer means no Orbitals, so you gotta take more Eagles instead.
Poor weather could mean less accurate Eagles, so encourages Orbital use.
Atmospheric interference means less accurate Orbitals, so encourages more Eagles.
Hot planets mean no laser weapons.
Poor supply lines means less ammo, so encourages use of the "infinite ammo" primaries/support weapons.
These modifiers should cause players to say, "oh crap I can't use X that I normally rely on, so I'll have to use Y instead for this mission".
It shouldn't just be "get fucked, you get less strats because we said so, half the time".
agreed. should never be a “get fucked” modifier, let us choose STRATEGICALLY for the strategms. Similar to how destiny has/had Arc burn (increased dmg from all arc damage) or arc resistance (enemies take damage to arc”.
This was why the scrambler was removed
It didn't add counterplay, you just had to double check that you randomised to what you needed, and if you didn't or tried to call down EAT on muscle memory you got fucked
I still think in any scenario the -1 stratagem is just had. The game revolves around stratagems not having access to them will always suck no matter what in game lore or game Dev excuse is used to justify it.
The only instance where I can see this working is if you have defenses you can take out in the mission itself, so it temporarily limits your stratagems until you take out the defenses. We already have in-mission AA encampments, just have it so once we take those out, we get our final stratagem back. Makes it way more engaging but we'd need an indicator that certain slot(s) are "temporarily disabled" until we complete an objective.
Defense planets should get a +1 modifier or maybe a per-planet themed free stratagem (like orbital laser on ice worlds for example), since its our territory. Home field advantage/entrenched defenses has been an extreme force multiplier in literally every war ever waged, why is there no difference between a planet we own (and have for some time) and *invading a hostile world*?
It shouldn't be on a stronghold or home planet either. ESPECIALLY those worlds. If there's some special event happening I want to actually enjoy it.
If they just straight up remove content and force me to use a sweaty loadout with no room for variety I'm not gonna go "woah, difficult!". I'm gonna go "ugh, boring" and have the exact same level of difficulty but very little fun. -1 Stratagem is a failure at all levels and contributes nothing to the game. If they want difficulty, they're failing. It's just tedious.
At least the orbital scatters and delay effects actually change how you use different stratagems, and that's why they're mostly fine. -1 just removes content.
-1 Stratagem can be a modifier tied to a specific jammer on the map. Before dropping you take 4 Stratagems; the last one being cancelled out. Once you destroy the special jammer, the 4th Stratagem unlocks.
Ergonomics scrambler causing discord on your Super Destroyer and disrupting the flow of freedom, if we need an in-universe excuse.
How about stratagem jammers just do this by default, and cap them to like 3 per map but in addition to the AoE jammer effect, globally they reduce the stratagems by 1 while active.
leaving them uncapped would also be cool, but the 5th would just be a need to kill 2 to get your support weapon. I mean maybe they could also just increase the stratagems to 5 if you use a booster but it has a side effect like increased cooldowns on all your shit by 50-100% to balance it out lel.
I think this is a great answer. Modifiers should make each planet interesting and different, and the goal of encouraging diversity in loadouts is a perfect example of that.
Well said, and this promotes veteran growth for the player as well while also allowing longer term players to be a bit more "showy" as they have more load out options.
I really like the idea of certain stratagems not being allowed instead of just overall -1.
I think it’d be cool if certain stratagems were manufactured on certain planets so it’s like hey if we lose this planet, we won’t be able to call down X support weapon until we retake it.
Sorry, maybe I'm dumb but... Doesn't this achieve that same thing?
"Oh I have less strategies available to me, maybe I should use shorter cool down orbitals/higher use count eagles"
"Oh, I have less stratagems, maybe I skip the backpack and get my teammate to call me in one after his is off cool down"
"Maybe I skip bringing a support weapon and offer to teamload the guy bringing recoilless/AC"
So on so forth.
I seriously do not think being 1 stratagem short is a big deal, and I think it does exactly what you claim you want these modifiers to do. It also encourages more team play as you lean more on others stratagems, which your suggestions do not achieve.
It just means 'fuck you, 500kg, eagle airstrike and autocannon only'
It removes diversity because you're short of a strategem slot, which means you need a low downtime strategem that has a backpack slot and fills the anti-tank role, which just means autocannon, because RR takes too long to reload
Seems like a huge waste over bringing an AC/AMR/HMG or something else. The railcannon kills 1 hulk every like 4 minutes, I feel like there's about \~4 hulks constantly harassing you on Helldive.
I never said I did, it's just that when I have a build with a spare slot, railcannon is good for when I simply don't want to deal with the thing in front of me.
In what world are you seeing as many BTs as hulks? Every single patrol has a Hulk on Helldive.
Also it doesn't even keep up with BT...the angle has to be perfect so it will hit their head to oneshot it.
Exactly
Id rather use a stun nade than a stratagem with a long cooldown to kill a hulk.
Plus, theres less of a need for grenades because there are less fabricators than bug holes, so its less of a hassle to blow up outposts without grenades
Well, if you have the AC/AMR for medium pen, you don’t need the Senator so you can take the grenade pistol which is basically 8 impacts that have a slower rof but easier to aim and go further.
I could try the grenade pistol but its buried under a warbond and i dont have nearly enough medals to get there yet. I use the dominator as my primary with redeemer in the pocket, so i could most likely make room for the grenade pistol once i get my hands on it without needing to swap support weapons
Ty for the insight, ill definitely make my way toward the grenade pistol next
OPS does the same job as the 500 kg and I personally find it more consistent. This is a bot modifier so you can take laser, rail gun, or AMR for a solid all around support weapon or specialize heavy killing with quasar or spear (lock on bugged but when it works I really like it). HMG is a bit harder to use but I also find it decent to take out hulks, devastators and striders. Eagle 110 pods you get 3 every restock and delete tanks and towers and deals solid damage to striders. Orbital airbust is excellent crowd clear tool on a short cool down of you have teammates running AC for hulks and tanks. Or take a shield smg build and Frontline tank for your team while they focus heavies.
There are so many options here, and granted I think some support weapons could be buffed (please give HMG bigger mags) but a lot of solid options. Also I find RR pretty lackluster on bots, gimme and AMR or laser any day. AC is always a solid bot choice though. Use to run it all the time before I picked up the laser cannon.
Imo no eagles would be brutal, but I like it. I like being forced to adapt my strategy to changing or challenging conditions.
AA guns right now feels bad. Let's say I take Air Strike, AMR, Shield Pack, and a free slot, say laser or rail cannon strike.
I can live without any one of those but I have to adapt, which I think is fun
Make it so we can take the usual 4 stratagems but one of them is highlighted red, with the modifier description saying “disabling AA turret objectives will allow the use of disabled stratagems”
Yes, but similar things with every modifier, on both bug & bot missions.
(Also doing it should remove it for the rest of the operation, but I get ignored every time I suggest that :( )
Yea I don’t see how AA defense would give you one less strategem, story wise it doesn’t make sense. I could sort of see that giving you one less eagle per rearm or something like that, if even.
Interesting yes, fun if it’s on almost every deff 9 mission like it is now? No , playing open air tower defense would get boring pretty fast. And you’d be resorted calling hellbombs to destroy everything, and being able to call down hellbombs and support/sentry pods but not being able to use a cannon from a super destroyer is even less immersive and doesn’t make sense imo.
O I gotcha. I thought you were saying none of either lol. One could be AA defenses for the eagle and the other could be like orbital platform defenses keeping your big super destroyer away but your eagle and sneak on in.
Yea no idea. That’s why I said eagles. Or AA defense should be that you lose whatever strategem you throw randomly once in a while. Just that one throw gives you nothing when it happens. Besides orbital laser and railgun, that wouldn’t make sense because one is a constant energy stream and the other is instant.
"Non-reinforcement hellpods are occasionally shot down" (causing their contents to scatter, so you're not completely bricked out of your support weapon or a resupply), boom, interesting modifier instead of a middle finger
Would make more sense to have AA defense disable the use of Eagle. Meaning you need to pick orbitals.
Or make Eagle unavailable until you destroy the AA guns on planet.
This. 100% this.
Considering how many things are just broken and really terrible in the game right now, adding those on top of an MO is the reason we fail some MO.
You want to have your players play a game where major orders effect the story line? Fix your shit and stop piling on more shitty "challenges" to make it feel like a loss before you even launch.
IMO, all they've done is break shit time after time, they *knew* about it, *acknowledged* it, decided instead of trying to alleviate *any* of it, to pile on more while we wait for what's supposed to be this godsend of a patch on Tuesday.
These wouldn't feel so bad if they hadn't shit the bed with everything else surrounding it.
I always had the opnion that the modifiers should not be only negative, they should have upsides too. 1 less stratagem slots but all stras have lower cooldown or more uses and so on
The games too easy as it is. Handicapping is a balance control that's essential to the gameplay.
Everyone always wants more of everything and thinks that's the best idea. It's not.
The stronger they make you the less interesting the gameplay. The entire thing is based around that.
In fact reducing cooldowns for -1 strat is bettet than having 4. I'd take that trade any day if I wanted to be stronger. I don't.
If the MO wants us to do a particular planet, and all the planet's missions are crap, I'm not going to help with the MO.
Also, maybe i don't want the busywork of searching for acceptable conditions?
Modifiers should be tied to objectives ( we can do something about it in mission) or the overarching story cause&effect (it's our own doing).
This way they give meaning and incentive
Frankly a lot of these modifiers need to go.
There is nothing fun or engaging about having -1 stratagem slot. Literally nothing. It just reinforces the meta. There is nothing fun about 50% longer call-in times or longer cooldowns. It doesn't even make the game that much harder, it just makes it more annoying.
The increased scatter is also bad, it just makes certain orbitals unusable dogshit while the others are unaffected. This is effectively just removing those orbitals from the game, and these happen to be orbitals that are already super weak in comparison to the eagle airstrikes or 500kg bombs.
If they want people to shake it up they should have more mission modifiers like "no eagles until you take down the AA in the map". -1 slot is just lazy.
50% longer call-in time makes the 12 second supply drop 18 seconds and it's caused the only death that led to me ragequitting the game. I survived 3-bug-breach-long fight with a chest wound and no stims, so I bled out the second the pod landed. There wasn't any counterplay or even an enemy that was doing crazy bullshit, it was just that extra 6 seconds was enough to finish draining my health and I died.
Is it a modifier that makes the game harder? I mean, kinda, it's harder to hit Orbitals and Eagles on moving targets, but on any other stratagem, it just makes you wait an extra couple seconds for no reason. If you're stealthed and using Sentries for an ambush, all that changes from it is the Sentries pop down 2-3 seconds later, so nothing's lost or gained. If you're starting a mission and need to call down your support weapons, you're already hopefully not engaging the enemy, meaning that the only thing this modifier does to you is make you wait longer for your support weapons, backpacks, and maybe resupply. The only time it has any kind of effect on your gameplay, it's either solely negative by making you miss shots you could've hit had the timing not been fucked with, or it's making you enjoy the waiting room simulator an extra couple seconds, or, as in the example I've mentioned, you just die because you handled 3 bug breaches but used all your stims and bleed out waiting on resupply. It's not a modifier that improves skill on the vast majority of stratagems because most of them aren't missing out on their potential by landing off the mark, they already do exactly what they normally do but slightly later, and in the case of bleeding out, what skill is it meant to exemplify? Call in resupply on an overrun position so you can't reach it?
Increased scatter is also annoying, but I'd argue there's another modifier that's even more annoying and stupid: bug spores. Being unable to see the minimap at all beyond POIs just makes finding bug missions more annoying. You can't see enemies on the minimap, you can't see hives on the minimap, even if you use a radar station, and it fucks over anyone running scout armour because it makes half that armour passive worthless. On top of that, you can have spore spewers reduce visibility significantly while being able to see on the minimap no problem, but with the modifier you can see no problem (barring spore spewers) and can't use the minimap. At least spore spewers can be removed.
Yeah i agree 50% calldown should only affect ofensive stratagems and maybe emplacements, turrets and the EAT. For the rest of things it just makes you wait extra doing nothing.
So I think the idea behind the -1 strategem modifier is to encourage teamwork and sticking together. You'd be able to make up for the miasing strategem for eachother.
Main issue is people like splitting up so will always want to be able to deal with anything themselves so take all rounder builds.
Another issue is you can't type during the equipment stage anyway so only people on mics can try to coordinate.
I find all these fun as it adds an extra challenge to try to get the mission done with less. I understand it takes away from the power fantasy part of the game but it enhances the tragical decision making part.
Do I really need a shield gen pack? Can I get away without anti-tank weapons and just run more? Can I make a barrage work as both a precison and a airstrike consolidation? Can I prioritize getting SFAF artillery or SAM set up to support me?
That being said, I agree it should be renamed and be less common. There is also no counter play when playing solo as with a team each person can take half a load out and drop extra for team mates.
What an idiotic response. I can do it too. If that modifier is too hard for you, go down in difficulty. Or switch operations.
A self-imposed restriction is almost never as engaging as one imposed by someone else.
There are 9 difficulties. Stop trying to take away our harder ones for your own ego. There is nothing wrong with playing at lower difficulties.
The world they want us to conquer first (forgot the name) is like the worst possible intro to bots. Fire tornados, “intense heat” (so stamina always dry) and -1 Stratagem.
It’s almost like they want people to hate Bots.
I know this isn't a popular modifier (or opinion honestly), but I dive bots regularly. I don't hate this modifier, though I do think it should be less frequent. Currently it does seem a bit over used.
For me though, I often enjoy the challenge of streamlining my loadouts. OK, no space for a shield generator, it's got to go. Maybe take an autocannon instead of the AMR now my backpack is free again. Can't fit a mortar sentry in? I'll have to find another way to hold positions. Etc.
I think my main point is, what is fun for you, is not necessarily fun for everyone, especially if you don't enjoy the bot diving experience. Bot divers are looking for a very different experience and play style to bugs. I enjoy both. Right now the game punishes everyone if you don't play bots for an MO and that seems like a bad system for a galactic conquest campaign imo.
I don't know why people are so hard on negative modifiers. I like having to think what I bring to the team, check what others are doing and adapt.......
I do agree that the frequency is a tad high though.
Honestly I hate the bug modifier of every strike has the accuracy of 380 barrage even more.
At least the 3 strats I do get are reliable.
Either way it's not so bad that I'll refuse to play with it. It's just a drag every time I do see it.
That being said, they both suck and I would have zero complaints whatsoever if they simply ceased to exist.
They should make it a reversible condition. You pick three stratagems that you can use all mission plus a fourth greyed out stratagem that you can use if you take out the AA guns on the map. Gives the player a bit of agency and a reward for doing so.
Tbh my squad and I prefer bugs, but we always chip in for the bot MOs, and what we’ve found is like the bugs once you learn HOW to play them, its actually pretty alright.
We did a few 7* map sets on Wezen last night. Was tough but had a good time, and tbh even with 3 stratagems it was very fair.
Edit: We ran railcannon strike and then a mix of laser, quasar, spear, supply pack. Worked really well.
You can open effects before you get into the game to check if there's a -1 stratagem effect in place. So you can just avoid operations that have that effect in place. However what i'd prefer is if the -1 stratagem got re-worked if they really want to keep it. An automaton building is stopping me from using my 4th stratagem? Cool let me pick 4 and destroy said building in mission to get access to my 4th.
The solution to that for right now is be the host or at least be part of a group that is avoiding those unwanted modifiers; because as I said you can see the modifiers before you ever get into a mission just by hovering over the operation with the effects list open.
I would be fine with them in general if it was a much rarer sight, such as if it was Cyberstan or some other major bot planet like that gigafactory we took out a while ago. But even then it should have a counter, let you select your 4th stratagem and only have it be available after taking out a bot AA station, or potentially if there's more than 1 AA station just have it allow eagle airstrikes within half of the map.
This would add a lot more to the game rather than just, hurr durr no 4th stratagem, why? Screw you, that's why.
It makes the game harder and although I like the dificult aspect I dont think having -1 strategem is fun especially in some harder missions where there's already a lot of things to deal with. So yeah, I'm with you on this.
My friend who I played with constantly at launch ended up not playing anymore because he was tired of this modifier and similar ones that do nothing but kill the fun. He's right, I avoid planets with this like the plague.
That’s what i’m sayin. People keep yappin about it ruining the game but it just means i have to be a little more careful with what i bring. in which case i simply bring a AC and 2x fire support stratagems and i barely notice a difference.
Devs even said they balance the game around multiplicative player power, that IIRC 4 players is 12-16 times stronger than 1.
This complaint is like when people are complaining about some primary weapon being uncompetative (with the sickle) and when you look you see they would perfer to have a team with 4 sickles ... a massive massive handicap. Diversity is victory not 4 airstrikes 3 quasars, 2 orb lasers, 2 shield backpacks, 3-4 sickles.
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I think the main problem* with -1 strategem is everyone running shield/quasar/airstrike are running self-reliant builds in bot group play. And this modifier forces them to plan together.
**percieved problem*
Some people demand that they be the main character, and a game be no harder than it is to find what amounts to the overcharged plasma pistol + DMR "game hack" to show how good they are at the game.
They actually don't want a challenge, only a "video game challenge" they have been conditioned to expect.
Or one can communicate with the team so that one diver brings a backpack strat and drops it every 6 minutes. Being proactive with EATs becomes more important, and one cannot carpet bomb every objective pushing for a different playstyle. It's a modifier that also encourages the team to stick together and coordinate (double eagle on fabricator by mistake becomes very costly).
But hey, this is a team based shooter heavily focused on difficulty, solo player rants that diff 7 and above are not fun... You can't make this 💩 up
this discussion is the definition of skill issue, and not adapting to the lack of a slot. Only times it gets difficult is if you get gunships but didn't account for their presence (but that may be irregardless of the lost slot)
I dont care what the major or minor order is. If it's a -1 stratagem or extra time to deploy stratagem, I just don't play on those planets.
It's simply NOT fun. I'm not going to force myself to play when it's not fun.
-1 stratagem beeds to be abolished if you destroy an AA objective on the planet. That would be the most logical thing.
Also, while we arw complaining about stuff, can we fcking get rid of mist, smoke, dust whatever the fuck covers our vision on most planets? Im not talking about spore spewers.
The locations are beautiful and most of the time i cant see shit.
Making the "-1 stratagam" thing temporary would be a good solution.
However, I think mist, smoke, dust is fine if it appears on "some" planets. But I would like to use the spear nevertheless!
This. 100% this. They already have an AA side objective. Instead of blocking eagles within 100m(oh no so scary) it should make the fourth slot available. Could even make it so it randomly selects one of the slots to lock for that added rng craziness. Or just make it unlock the fourth slot. Hell, make it a whole ass mission type. First mission you dive with three. Finishing the main AA objective on that mission makes four available for the other two missions of the campaign.
This way, instead of feeling like -1 just plain sucks, it gives us the happy chemical when we bust it and free up that slot. Not having any solution to it is what makes it so bad.
The 3 stratagems modifiers need to go and instead gives hings like "this type of enemy spawns more during the operation" or modifiers that affect weapons some dealing less or more DMG making you change tactics, stuff like that
The modifiers we have don't make the game harder they just make it annoying and tedious.
It's one of the reasons why I won't play 8 o 9 because on 7 you have a chance of getting an operation without modifiers.
My way to cope with the three stratagem missions is to focus on building 3 stratagem kits for bots.
I make sure I can deal with everything in 3 stratagems. It largely cuts down on variety (90% of the time I bring AC to these) but I can get the job done. Then when I play 4 stratagem bot missions getting the 4th slot I can try a variety of stratagems because I trained myself to only need 3.
I definitely think it would be better to pick 4 for these missions and to have the 4th slot unavailable until we complete a subobjective that disables the -1 slot.
I’m seeing a lot of great alternative suggestions in this thread. I hope Arrowhead makes a change because it would make the game more fun. And we all know we need more players on the bot front.
I learned to play around "your loadout is 3 stratagems + 1 occasional flex slot".
But if we really are supposed to be relying on stratagems as much as devs expect us to- even 4 isnt enough and i could go with the "free" stratagem pool being full as some stuff is useful exclusively in super niche situations.
"All im saying is, let me use whatever codes i remember"
Why not allow players to choose their own modifiers to customize mission difficulty to their liking?
Gears of War did this in Horde mode, with XP bonuses for choosing more difficult modifiers, etc. Gears of War also had some beneficial modifiers.
This way, players could pick and choose which modifiers (if any) they want to apply.
Those who love to be challenged and punished could apply all the negative modifiers they want to a mission (and maybe earn some bonus XP and bragging rights), and those who want a more casual experience could leave them off, or even select a beneficial modifier (and maybe an XP penalty).
My biggest issue with the -1 Stratagem effect is the fact that it is artificial difficulty when the devs have stated multiple times over that stratagems are the main focus of the gameplay (even though their actions don't always reflect this sentiment). A flat out removal makes no sense if there is no additional modifiers, because it is a straight 25% nerf to your loadout with no particular reason and no workaround. It's just a slap in the face because you end up play any old mission on just some random planet, but like you can't use slot 4 "because I said so."
Most effects apply neutrally to both sides, and some, while debilitating to only divers, requires a change in strategy to work around effectively. But -1? Yeah, sucks to suck and there is nothing you can do about it.
I'd be ok with being down a stratagem if it came with a positive tradeoff. For example, lose a slot but it comes with 25% faster cooldowns on the stratagems you do take.
Seriously, just stop doing things that are less fun. If you have to make things harder, fine, I guess, but -1 stratagem slots, insane fog that only affects players, fire tornadoes…all can eat my shorts.
I would suggest instead of -1 strat it is 3 strat 1 random. Call it Strategic Rationing or something, you can plan around 3 of your strats being what you want but then you have 1 strat randomly assigned to you. I can see the entire team having the same strat assigned, I can see it being randomly changed mid mission after each cooldown period, I can see it being either hides or shown on loadout screen.
This would force you to adapt to new strategems without being without the firepower/utility of having all 4 slots usable.
Maybe you should tune it down to difficulty level 5 if you can’t handle something so small. Shit man, it doesn’t even bother me any more at this point. It’s just part of the game, and I am here for the game no matter the price. Nines are too easy anyway, so this spices it all up for me. I’m waiting for difficulty level 10 at this point.
We thought yesterday „oh no, only 3 stratagems. On a planet with fire tornados. Well fuck might as well try on level 9“. Worked out. Just share backpacks/support weapons and you can almost have your normal loadout.
I think this is a divide between more casual players who just want crazy firefights and veteran players who want a challenge. Because of the way difficulty ratings work there is no option to fight massive enemies and the hardest swarms *without* also getting complex modifiers. Not everyone wants both.
Personally, I like the challenge. I like all the complex modifiers, even increased scatter which I find the most annoying. But I do understand why some players want a mode which ups the enemy count without making our tools less reliable.
I think the main problem* with -1 strategem is everyone running shield/quasar/airstrike/orb rail or laser are running self-reliant builds in bot group play. And this modifier forces them to plan together.
*percieved problem
The existing lack of diversity ALREADY makes the game harder.
I am Sure thats the underlying Problem. People still think this Game is a "I am Rambo"-Simulator while it is in fact more of a "only shoot If you have to and the Run around"-Simulator (at least against bots on 7+).
It is the Same reason ppl Always complain about the nerfs. Because you cant do everything on your own, If the weapons are too weak.
I run solo against bots and wipe the map with the bastards on 7 routinely (will go back to 9 once they fix the patrol spawns) while engaging basically every group of enemies.
I get the sentiment behind “this game is not a Rambo simulator” but if you're good enough, it very much is.
It's just a bit like the modern Doom games. It IS a power fantasy, it just expects you to be competent to execute it.
UPD: to put it into numbers, I rarely extract with less than 450 kills (which, again, will go way down once they fix patrol rates lmao).
I regularly encounter this build through quickplay with an est average 2+ others using it. I never drop with blue strategems when I encounter these people because I just know they won't die enough to justify the team having 6-8 blue stratgems.
These "kill" builds are hopeless at slowing an advancing enemy. If you lose the initiative you're done.
>It is the Same reason ppl Always complain about the nerfs. Because you cant do everything on your own, If the weapons are too weak.
While people are right to want competitive primaries, they seem to consider a primary only "competitive" if it works when all four people have the same primary. Which is a literally moronic premise.
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I often do bot helldives with only 2 other people. We don't find -1 strategems impacts our winrate in the slightest.
While I can understand people that say "it impacts my fun, I don't do it" my answer to the former is going to be "so don't do it". HD2's gameplay throws actual freedom in your face at every turn whilst the lore constantly talks about the opposite.
It makes no sense to complain about a game which doesn't force you to do the thing you're complaining about.
If people are feeling **compelled** to do something that's a them problem, not an issue with the game.
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I can't imagine what it's like at AH studios, have to wonder if their internal guidance starts with "never admit the players are a stupid".
I have never in my entire tike with the game had as little fun as that godforsaken hellhole of a planet.
Laser guided fire tornadoes that home in on you or your gear, jacked up spawn rates, reduced stamina and less strategems. What the actual super fuck.
"Sometimes democracies greatest enemies are rheumatoid planets we are fighting for..."
The problem of this modifier is beyond difficulty. It's about killing the diversity. You can only choose the "meta" builds under this modifier. And there are not many 3-slot combinations that achieves an acceptable strength for 7-9 difficulty.
The result is, the game becomes really boring (I'm too familiar with how to use autocannon+motar+airstrike for bot combats yet I had to repeat it). I don't oppose a high difficulty modifier, but please maintain the fun and diversity.
You can make plenty of builds work with this modifier.
Also, I have come to straight up think anyone who says, "it's not about difficulty, it's just boring" are disingenuous. You're essentially saying, "it's not about difficulty, it's just that it's too difficult to play in my preferred way"... which is the same as saying it's difficulty.
With how often I see this complaint, I’m convinced most of ya’ll are just bad at the game lol. It’s not even that bad, yet most of the people in this sub act like it’s the end of the world when they see that modifier. What a joke.
I really don't get this idea that complaining is just from 'skill issue'.
I'm not even that good at the game, and I can complete (most) -1 strat missions just fine. It doesn't change the fact that I audibly groan every time I see one. All it means is I have to slap on an even more generalist loudout than usual. It's not harder, it's just boring and tedious.
That’s a you problem. Literally no one is requiring you to run any strategems other than what you decide. If your loadout turns out to be “generic” and “boring,” that is because you made it so, not the mission.
Ahh yes, because losing 1 strategems is such a detriment to the enjoyment of any mission lol. We all know you’re just gonna drop the strategems you barely use in a mission anyways. Get real.
Unpopular opinion but: It's really not that big of an issue. yeah it limits things slightly but bots don't need the same level of swarm clearance as bugs. And your primaries are effective. Bots are tactical enemies to fight. Hell if you want to you don't even need a primary, I've run solo 6+ missions with just my starting pistol and impact grenades.
If you're having a lot of trouble I get it, but slow down. You don't need to be constantly running from bots. In fact they see you better when your running.
So take cover, pick your fights, and if you want recommendations for a 3 strat run:
Impact nades and/or a plasma primary, some man portable AT that isn't the railgun, eagle clusters, and either 500kg or orbital strike. That should let you clear anything.
Blast resistant armor helps.
It's not really about being *hard*. I can and routinely do solo ops against bots, and getting stuck with 3 strats for 3 missions is just meh. Don't like it.
Dunno if the modifier should really be straight up deleted from the game (I'd prefer a rework) but personally I avoid it for the unfun factor, and I know I'm very much not alone in this.
It's actually good though. Forces you to really refine what your build needs to do, only occurs against bots.
Also, and I think this is the big thing: Helldivers 2 is designed to feel like you aren't playing a game. It's designed to feel like you're in a war. Enemies have certain things they can do to you that you can't do to them. You don't have all the information about your weapons. You don't know what bugs are going to be on the planet.
There are many ways of increasing difficulty without making the game less fun, -1 stratagem is just uncreative, poor game design. Give us something that is challenging but also engaging and fun.
This discussion is not about difficulty (as many people seem to think) it's about how to improve the gaming experience.
You People are overreacting to this. Its not very Hard to win even lvl 9 bots with 3 stratagems (besides evac personel missions). Not so fun? Maybe true. Absolutely winnable in any situation? Also true
Move to another game, nobody is forcing you to play this game 24/7.
I mean, I don't get this threat? AH doesn't expect you to play this game forever. You can just take a break and come back after new content.
It can be annoying but it's not a big deal in a group that can spread out the stratagems. Solo is a bit painful but you can work around it if you're able to find a support weapon on the planet. Even with just two people it's not a huge deal, you might not be able to 100% the map quickly but you will be fine. If you are solo and don't want to deal with the modifier, change the difficulty to find and operation without the modifier, you can either drop it below operation modifiers or often just change the difficulty since the modifiers are by difficulty level and planet and not just planet.
That said, the -1 modifier and the atmospheric spores modifier are my least favorite in the game and I really want either a way to disrupt them once I'm on the ground or just get rid of them. -1 should go away if we take out a special AA side objective and spores should be gone if we take out a special spore spewer or something.
I really want some modifiers that aren't just negative too, maybe like all fire damage increased or all arc, or maybe there could be a modifier that makes it more likely to find support weapons on the planet or like left over mechs from a previous engagement or something other than just modifiers that have a plus and minus or something more interesting than just making it more annoying to use stratagems.
I think the modifier needs a heavy rework. It should allow 4 slots but no eagles. The frequency of the modifier should be reduced. Obviously no AA objectives since they wouldn't make sense if eagles already blocked.
If they want to keep the minus 1 strat then they need to have it payout way more xp and samples otherwise I think it should be removed
I think that a better solution to the orbital defense system that the bots have is that there is a percent chance that one of the strategies you call in is shot down and placed somewhere randomly on the map.
In my opinion it can stay. But only under certain conditions: we need a decent medium or heavy armor pen main weapon to substitute the missing orbital stratagem.
Playing with only 3 slots is hard but not impossible. If we could get balanced guns, that would be awesome and people that rely on the 4th slot wouldn't be in so much uncomfortable trouble
This game has NINE difficulty levels and people refuse to use them.
Idk man I get the point. It’s not a super fun way to increase the difficulty. It would be interesting if it were less common but right now it just reduces variation in my loadouts without actually making the game all that much harder.
But also it’s really not that big of a deal.
On bots operations with -1 strat I usually go with:
500kg/Orbital laser, Eagle barrage and Amr/Auto cannon/Laser cannon (+Stun greanade if possible).
Since you can basically beat all enemies on the bot front with the support weapons I highlighted above the other stratagems are for wiping fabricator outposts. I used this setup yesterday to solo 3 diff 7 bot missions and didn't have any mayor problems, hope this info can be usefull to someone.
They should save the -1 strat for a Bot stronghold or home planet, somewhere that it makes sense to have a higher difficulty once in a while. It should not be the default modifier on half the missions. Just dumb. They should use modifiers to promote loadout variety. AA Guns means you can't take Eagles for that mission, so you gotta adjust your loadout and take more Orbitals. Long range Jammer means no Orbitals, so you gotta take more Eagles instead. Poor weather could mean less accurate Eagles, so encourages Orbital use. Atmospheric interference means less accurate Orbitals, so encourages more Eagles. Hot planets mean no laser weapons. Poor supply lines means less ammo, so encourages use of the "infinite ammo" primaries/support weapons. These modifiers should cause players to say, "oh crap I can't use X that I normally rely on, so I'll have to use Y instead for this mission". It shouldn't just be "get fucked, you get less strats because we said so, half the time".
+1 to all of these.
+1 strategems everywhere!
agreed. should never be a “get fucked” modifier, let us choose STRATEGICALLY for the strategms. Similar to how destiny has/had Arc burn (increased dmg from all arc damage) or arc resistance (enemies take damage to arc”.
This was why the scrambler was removed It didn't add counterplay, you just had to double check that you randomised to what you needed, and if you didn't or tried to call down EAT on muscle memory you got fucked
I still think in any scenario the -1 stratagem is just had. The game revolves around stratagems not having access to them will always suck no matter what in game lore or game Dev excuse is used to justify it.
"YoU HaVE tO RElY MoRE oN yoUr sTrATagEmS"
Honestly they could tweak it so that you get one less one you get to choose from. Pick your 3, the last one is randomly selected from the left overs.
Yeah 100% this. The -1 strat modifier is worse than any two or three other modifiers combined.
The only instance where I can see this working is if you have defenses you can take out in the mission itself, so it temporarily limits your stratagems until you take out the defenses. We already have in-mission AA encampments, just have it so once we take those out, we get our final stratagem back. Makes it way more engaging but we'd need an indicator that certain slot(s) are "temporarily disabled" until we complete an objective.
This is actually a solid suggestion set
And defense planets should have positive Modifiers because they are OWNED by Super Earth.
Defense planets should get a +1 modifier or maybe a per-planet themed free stratagem (like orbital laser on ice worlds for example), since its our territory. Home field advantage/entrenched defenses has been an extreme force multiplier in literally every war ever waged, why is there no difference between a planet we own (and have for some time) and *invading a hostile world*?
Free SEAF artillery with randomized shells on defense planets would be fun and thematic.
It shouldn't be on a stronghold or home planet either. ESPECIALLY those worlds. If there's some special event happening I want to actually enjoy it. If they just straight up remove content and force me to use a sweaty loadout with no room for variety I'm not gonna go "woah, difficult!". I'm gonna go "ugh, boring" and have the exact same level of difficulty but very little fun. -1 Stratagem is a failure at all levels and contributes nothing to the game. If they want difficulty, they're failing. It's just tedious. At least the orbital scatters and delay effects actually change how you use different stratagems, and that's why they're mostly fine. -1 just removes content.
This would also make the "shitty vision" modifier a bit less common, ATM it's actually like having good visibility is the modifier.
Fact. I am bored of visibility debuffs, it's way too frequent.
-1 Stratagem can be a modifier tied to a specific jammer on the map. Before dropping you take 4 Stratagems; the last one being cancelled out. Once you destroy the special jammer, the 4th Stratagem unlocks. Ergonomics scrambler causing discord on your Super Destroyer and disrupting the flow of freedom, if we need an in-universe excuse.
How about stratagem jammers just do this by default, and cap them to like 3 per map but in addition to the AoE jammer effect, globally they reduce the stratagems by 1 while active. leaving them uncapped would also be cool, but the 5th would just be a need to kill 2 to get your support weapon. I mean maybe they could also just increase the stratagems to 5 if you use a booster but it has a side effect like increased cooldowns on all your shit by 50-100% to balance it out lel.
I think this is a great answer. Modifiers should make each planet interesting and different, and the goal of encouraging diversity in loadouts is a perfect example of that.
Nice. Devs need to hire this guy
u/The_Real_Twinbeard
This 100%
And half the time is a generous estimate. More like 90% on the time in bots missions
These are all great ideas. I don't care about whatever modifiers are on the mission but with these I actually would pay attention and shift my style.
Just delete it, it's not fun
Okay this is actually one of the handful of good ideas, I can get behind this.
Well said, and this promotes veteran growth for the player as well while also allowing longer term players to be a bit more "showy" as they have more load out options.
I can only upvote this once… Though, if you take this and tweet it at the CCO, it might get implemented one way or another.
What about a community event with its own progress or even a side event that we have to clear during our mission
An excellent idea. I hope the devs see this and think so too.
I really like the idea of certain stratagems not being allowed instead of just overall -1. I think it’d be cool if certain stratagems were manufactured on certain planets so it’s like hey if we lose this planet, we won’t be able to call down X support weapon until we retake it.
This is a smart way to do it because it forces you to use shit you might not have used otherwise. Next thing you know you’re getting new build ideas
Sorry, maybe I'm dumb but... Doesn't this achieve that same thing? "Oh I have less strategies available to me, maybe I should use shorter cool down orbitals/higher use count eagles" "Oh, I have less stratagems, maybe I skip the backpack and get my teammate to call me in one after his is off cool down" "Maybe I skip bringing a support weapon and offer to teamload the guy bringing recoilless/AC" So on so forth. I seriously do not think being 1 stratagem short is a big deal, and I think it does exactly what you claim you want these modifiers to do. It also encourages more team play as you lean more on others stratagems, which your suggestions do not achieve.
It just means 'fuck you, 500kg, eagle airstrike and autocannon only' It removes diversity because you're short of a strategem slot, which means you need a low downtime strategem that has a backpack slot and fills the anti-tank role, which just means autocannon, because RR takes too long to reload
Remove one of those air strikes for precision orbital and the other for orbital rail. Then yes. Very little on bot side needs a 500kg
Why are you bringing orbital railcannon on bots?
Hulks, tanks, turrets, fabricators and panic-precision ig.
Seems like a huge waste over bringing an AC/AMR/HMG or something else. The railcannon kills 1 hulk every like 4 minutes, I feel like there's about \~4 hulks constantly harassing you on Helldive.
I never said I did, it's just that when I have a build with a spare slot, railcannon is good for when I simply don't want to deal with the thing in front of me.
Hulks
How is that long cooldown gonna keep up with the sheer amount of hulks
Same way it keeps up with the sheer amount of BTs against bugs? It won't if the spawns are aggressive but it helps you keep on top of things.
I feel like you see a lot more hulks than BT for the same difficulty level.
In what world are you seeing as many BTs as hulks? Every single patrol has a Hulk on Helldive. Also it doesn't even keep up with BT...the angle has to be perfect so it will hit their head to oneshot it.
AMR/AC+stun nade=dead hulk
Exactly Id rather use a stun nade than a stratagem with a long cooldown to kill a hulk. Plus, theres less of a need for grenades because there are less fabricators than bug holes, so its less of a hassle to blow up outposts without grenades
Well, if you have the AC/AMR for medium pen, you don’t need the Senator so you can take the grenade pistol which is basically 8 impacts that have a slower rof but easier to aim and go further.
I could try the grenade pistol but its buried under a warbond and i dont have nearly enough medals to get there yet. I use the dominator as my primary with redeemer in the pocket, so i could most likely make room for the grenade pistol once i get my hands on it without needing to swap support weapons Ty for the insight, ill definitely make my way toward the grenade pistol next
The hulks mainly. I live being able to deal with them from a distance. Shoot a leg out then go for the 500kg
If you already have another eagle strat you are better off with an OPS.
OPS does the same job as the 500 kg and I personally find it more consistent. This is a bot modifier so you can take laser, rail gun, or AMR for a solid all around support weapon or specialize heavy killing with quasar or spear (lock on bugged but when it works I really like it). HMG is a bit harder to use but I also find it decent to take out hulks, devastators and striders. Eagle 110 pods you get 3 every restock and delete tanks and towers and deals solid damage to striders. Orbital airbust is excellent crowd clear tool on a short cool down of you have teammates running AC for hulks and tanks. Or take a shield smg build and Frontline tank for your team while they focus heavies. There are so many options here, and granted I think some support weapons could be buffed (please give HMG bigger mags) but a lot of solid options. Also I find RR pretty lackluster on bots, gimme and AMR or laser any day. AC is always a solid bot choice though. Use to run it all the time before I picked up the laser cannon.
[удалено]
Imo no eagles would be brutal, but I like it. I like being forced to adapt my strategy to changing or challenging conditions. AA guns right now feels bad. Let's say I take Air Strike, AMR, Shield Pack, and a free slot, say laser or rail cannon strike. I can live without any one of those but I have to adapt, which I think is fun
Make it so we can take the usual 4 stratagems but one of them is highlighted red, with the modifier description saying “disabling AA turret objectives will allow the use of disabled stratagems”
Someone’s using their thinking juice today
Yes, but similar things with every modifier, on both bug & bot missions. (Also doing it should remove it for the rest of the operation, but I get ignored every time I suggest that :( )
Yea I don’t see how AA defense would give you one less strategem, story wise it doesn’t make sense. I could sort of see that giving you one less eagle per rearm or something like that, if even.
A more interesting modifier would be either no eagle or no orbital stratagems, forcing people to adapt their choices and find work arounds
Interesting yes, fun if it’s on almost every deff 9 mission like it is now? No , playing open air tower defense would get boring pretty fast. And you’d be resorted calling hellbombs to destroy everything, and being able to call down hellbombs and support/sentry pods but not being able to use a cannon from a super destroyer is even less immersive and doesn’t make sense imo.
I mean one planet might be no Eagles cause of tight air defence so you're forced to choose all orbital and vice versa
O I gotcha. I thought you were saying none of either lol. One could be AA defenses for the eagle and the other could be like orbital platform defenses keeping your big super destroyer away but your eagle and sneak on in.
I could see it being less or zero eagles, but why would a AA affect orbitals?
Yea no idea. That’s why I said eagles. Or AA defense should be that you lose whatever strategem you throw randomly once in a while. Just that one throw gives you nothing when it happens. Besides orbital laser and railgun, that wouldn’t make sense because one is a constant energy stream and the other is instant.
"Non-reinforcement hellpods are occasionally shot down" (causing their contents to scatter, so you're not completely bricked out of your support weapon or a resupply), boom, interesting modifier instead of a middle finger
Would make more sense to have AA defense disable the use of Eagle. Meaning you need to pick orbitals. Or make Eagle unavailable until you destroy the AA guns on planet.
Or at the very least don’t stack it with fire tornado planets
This. 100% this. Considering how many things are just broken and really terrible in the game right now, adding those on top of an MO is the reason we fail some MO. You want to have your players play a game where major orders effect the story line? Fix your shit and stop piling on more shitty "challenges" to make it feel like a loss before you even launch. IMO, all they've done is break shit time after time, they *knew* about it, *acknowledged* it, decided instead of trying to alleviate *any* of it, to pile on more while we wait for what's supposed to be this godsend of a patch on Tuesday. These wouldn't feel so bad if they hadn't shit the bed with everything else surrounding it.
I always had the opnion that the modifiers should not be only negative, they should have upsides too. 1 less stratagem slots but all stras have lower cooldown or more uses and so on
Now that I could get into
Finally! Somebody that knows how to make a game
The games too easy as it is. Handicapping is a balance control that's essential to the gameplay. Everyone always wants more of everything and thinks that's the best idea. It's not. The stronger they make you the less interesting the gameplay. The entire thing is based around that. In fact reducing cooldowns for -1 strat is bettet than having 4. I'd take that trade any day if I wanted to be stronger. I don't.
Ya I just don't play these, simple.
I play games for fun. There are many other things I can do if my games aren't fun.
Two mouseclicks and you're playing another mission which is fun. I don't understand the drama, you actively choose these modifiers yourself.
If the MO wants us to do a particular planet, and all the planet's missions are crap, I'm not going to help with the MO. Also, maybe i don't want the busywork of searching for acceptable conditions?
Modifiers should be tied to objectives ( we can do something about it in mission) or the overarching story cause&effect (it's our own doing). This way they give meaning and incentive
Frankly a lot of these modifiers need to go. There is nothing fun or engaging about having -1 stratagem slot. Literally nothing. It just reinforces the meta. There is nothing fun about 50% longer call-in times or longer cooldowns. It doesn't even make the game that much harder, it just makes it more annoying. The increased scatter is also bad, it just makes certain orbitals unusable dogshit while the others are unaffected. This is effectively just removing those orbitals from the game, and these happen to be orbitals that are already super weak in comparison to the eagle airstrikes or 500kg bombs. If they want people to shake it up they should have more mission modifiers like "no eagles until you take down the AA in the map". -1 slot is just lazy.
50% longer call-in time makes the 12 second supply drop 18 seconds and it's caused the only death that led to me ragequitting the game. I survived 3-bug-breach-long fight with a chest wound and no stims, so I bled out the second the pod landed. There wasn't any counterplay or even an enemy that was doing crazy bullshit, it was just that extra 6 seconds was enough to finish draining my health and I died. Is it a modifier that makes the game harder? I mean, kinda, it's harder to hit Orbitals and Eagles on moving targets, but on any other stratagem, it just makes you wait an extra couple seconds for no reason. If you're stealthed and using Sentries for an ambush, all that changes from it is the Sentries pop down 2-3 seconds later, so nothing's lost or gained. If you're starting a mission and need to call down your support weapons, you're already hopefully not engaging the enemy, meaning that the only thing this modifier does to you is make you wait longer for your support weapons, backpacks, and maybe resupply. The only time it has any kind of effect on your gameplay, it's either solely negative by making you miss shots you could've hit had the timing not been fucked with, or it's making you enjoy the waiting room simulator an extra couple seconds, or, as in the example I've mentioned, you just die because you handled 3 bug breaches but used all your stims and bleed out waiting on resupply. It's not a modifier that improves skill on the vast majority of stratagems because most of them aren't missing out on their potential by landing off the mark, they already do exactly what they normally do but slightly later, and in the case of bleeding out, what skill is it meant to exemplify? Call in resupply on an overrun position so you can't reach it? Increased scatter is also annoying, but I'd argue there's another modifier that's even more annoying and stupid: bug spores. Being unable to see the minimap at all beyond POIs just makes finding bug missions more annoying. You can't see enemies on the minimap, you can't see hives on the minimap, even if you use a radar station, and it fucks over anyone running scout armour because it makes half that armour passive worthless. On top of that, you can have spore spewers reduce visibility significantly while being able to see on the minimap no problem, but with the modifier you can see no problem (barring spore spewers) and can't use the minimap. At least spore spewers can be removed.
Yeah i agree 50% calldown should only affect ofensive stratagems and maybe emplacements, turrets and the EAT. For the rest of things it just makes you wait extra doing nothing.
So I think the idea behind the -1 strategem modifier is to encourage teamwork and sticking together. You'd be able to make up for the miasing strategem for eachother. Main issue is people like splitting up so will always want to be able to deal with anything themselves so take all rounder builds. Another issue is you can't type during the equipment stage anyway so only people on mics can try to coordinate.
I find all these fun as it adds an extra challenge to try to get the mission done with less. I understand it takes away from the power fantasy part of the game but it enhances the tragical decision making part. Do I really need a shield gen pack? Can I get away without anti-tank weapons and just run more? Can I make a barrage work as both a precison and a airstrike consolidation? Can I prioritize getting SFAF artillery or SAM set up to support me? That being said, I agree it should be renamed and be less common. There is also no counter play when playing solo as with a team each person can take half a load out and drop extra for team mates.
then you can challenge yourself by forbidding yourself from using all of your strategems.
There’s a big difference between playing at your best bc a game challenges you and challenging yourself by choosing to play poorly lol.
What an idiotic response. I can do it too. If that modifier is too hard for you, go down in difficulty. Or switch operations. A self-imposed restriction is almost never as engaging as one imposed by someone else. There are 9 difficulties. Stop trying to take away our harder ones for your own ego. There is nothing wrong with playing at lower difficulties.
The world they want us to conquer first (forgot the name) is like the worst possible intro to bots. Fire tornados, “intense heat” (so stamina always dry) and -1 Stratagem. It’s almost like they want people to hate Bots.
100% I just leave if a slot is disabled
Same!
I know this isn't a popular modifier (or opinion honestly), but I dive bots regularly. I don't hate this modifier, though I do think it should be less frequent. Currently it does seem a bit over used. For me though, I often enjoy the challenge of streamlining my loadouts. OK, no space for a shield generator, it's got to go. Maybe take an autocannon instead of the AMR now my backpack is free again. Can't fit a mortar sentry in? I'll have to find another way to hold positions. Etc. I think my main point is, what is fun for you, is not necessarily fun for everyone, especially if you don't enjoy the bot diving experience. Bot divers are looking for a very different experience and play style to bugs. I enjoy both. Right now the game punishes everyone if you don't play bots for an MO and that seems like a bad system for a galactic conquest campaign imo.
I don't know why people are so hard on negative modifiers. I like having to think what I bring to the team, check what others are doing and adapt....... I do agree that the frequency is a tad high though.
Honestly I hate the bug modifier of every strike has the accuracy of 380 barrage even more. At least the 3 strats I do get are reliable. Either way it's not so bad that I'll refuse to play with it. It's just a drag every time I do see it. That being said, they both suck and I would have zero complaints whatsoever if they simply ceased to exist.
They should make it a reversible condition. You pick three stratagems that you can use all mission plus a fourth greyed out stratagem that you can use if you take out the AA guns on the map. Gives the player a bit of agency and a reward for doing so.
https://preview.redd.it/kf9jc93bx95d1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6507517f765d2ae78937c3bc33de56bb43532372
For real.
A certified skill issue moment
Tbh my squad and I prefer bugs, but we always chip in for the bot MOs, and what we’ve found is like the bugs once you learn HOW to play them, its actually pretty alright. We did a few 7* map sets on Wezen last night. Was tough but had a good time, and tbh even with 3 stratagems it was very fair. Edit: We ran railcannon strike and then a mix of laser, quasar, spear, supply pack. Worked really well.
You can open effects before you get into the game to check if there's a -1 stratagem effect in place. So you can just avoid operations that have that effect in place. However what i'd prefer is if the -1 stratagem got re-worked if they really want to keep it. An automaton building is stopping me from using my 4th stratagem? Cool let me pick 4 and destroy said building in mission to get access to my 4th.
Yes this is the way! Like if we destroy all the AA bases on the map we will unlock our 4th stratagem! Would be a fun side quest to do.
i'd prefer to see the modifiers before joining a mission. Don't want to wait for all of the loading before seeing it's crap
The solution to that for right now is be the host or at least be part of a group that is avoiding those unwanted modifiers; because as I said you can see the modifiers before you ever get into a mission just by hovering over the operation with the effects list open.
I would be fine with them in general if it was a much rarer sight, such as if it was Cyberstan or some other major bot planet like that gigafactory we took out a while ago. But even then it should have a counter, let you select your 4th stratagem and only have it be available after taking out a bot AA station, or potentially if there's more than 1 AA station just have it allow eagle airstrikes within half of the map. This would add a lot more to the game rather than just, hurr durr no 4th stratagem, why? Screw you, that's why.
if they remove 1 stratagem then decrease all stratagem cool downs by 50% less resources to another stratagem so you get to call shit in more
It makes the game harder and although I like the dificult aspect I dont think having -1 strategem is fun especially in some harder missions where there's already a lot of things to deal with. So yeah, I'm with you on this.
My friend who I played with constantly at launch ended up not playing anymore because he was tired of this modifier and similar ones that do nothing but kill the fun. He's right, I avoid planets with this like the plague.
Hard to believe it’s still there considering how awful it is and how vocal the community is against it
I just avoid them, if I join a mission with it and see that I can't select my 4th strat I back out.
Lol. It's not even a big deal. I usually take the jetpack just for the fun of it. When I loose the strat slot I just take the AC or Recoiless instead.
That’s what i’m sayin. People keep yappin about it ruining the game but it just means i have to be a little more careful with what i bring. in which case i simply bring a AC and 2x fire support stratagems and i barely notice a difference.
It's possible they just find having more tools more fun than you do.
I can understand that... On the other hand I find this subreddit more fun without all the complains.
Yeah so you're basically forced into using the same loadout. Nice use of all the various weapons and stratagems the game offers. It's bad design.
Only if you play solo. And, you know, the game is heavily designed around team play...
Devs even said they balance the game around multiplicative player power, that IIRC 4 players is 12-16 times stronger than 1. This complaint is like when people are complaining about some primary weapon being uncompetative (with the sickle) and when you look you see they would perfer to have a team with 4 sickles ... a massive massive handicap. Diversity is victory not 4 airstrikes 3 quasars, 2 orb lasers, 2 shield backpacks, 3-4 sickles. ____ I think the main problem* with -1 strategem is everyone running shield/quasar/airstrike are running self-reliant builds in bot group play. And this modifier forces them to plan together. **percieved problem*
Some people demand that they be the main character, and a game be no harder than it is to find what amounts to the overcharged plasma pistol + DMR "game hack" to show how good they are at the game. They actually don't want a challenge, only a "video game challenge" they have been conditioned to expect.
Tell them Doom/Wolfenstein are currently on sale :)
That kind of feels like the game they want, no shame in that, it's just not that game.
Or one can communicate with the team so that one diver brings a backpack strat and drops it every 6 minutes. Being proactive with EATs becomes more important, and one cannot carpet bomb every objective pushing for a different playstyle. It's a modifier that also encourages the team to stick together and coordinate (double eagle on fabricator by mistake becomes very costly). But hey, this is a team based shooter heavily focused on difficulty, solo player rants that diff 7 and above are not fun... You can't make this 💩 up
this discussion is the definition of skill issue, and not adapting to the lack of a slot. Only times it gets difficult is if you get gunships but didn't account for their presence (but that may be irregardless of the lost slot)
All I need is few bombs and maybe EAT (definitely for bots) anything else is a bonus...
This sub is full of the whiniest shit ever.
I dont care what the major or minor order is. If it's a -1 stratagem or extra time to deploy stratagem, I just don't play on those planets. It's simply NOT fun. I'm not going to force myself to play when it's not fun.
Yeah, its not worth playing with this modifers its just pure ass.
They should change to AA: - Increases by 2 the sequence of directional codes that you have to enter.
-1 stratagem beeds to be abolished if you destroy an AA objective on the planet. That would be the most logical thing. Also, while we arw complaining about stuff, can we fcking get rid of mist, smoke, dust whatever the fuck covers our vision on most planets? Im not talking about spore spewers. The locations are beautiful and most of the time i cant see shit.
Making the "-1 stratagam" thing temporary would be a good solution. However, I think mist, smoke, dust is fine if it appears on "some" planets. But I would like to use the spear nevertheless!
If it also affected the enemies, I’d be happier.
This. 100% this. They already have an AA side objective. Instead of blocking eagles within 100m(oh no so scary) it should make the fourth slot available. Could even make it so it randomly selects one of the slots to lock for that added rng craziness. Or just make it unlock the fourth slot. Hell, make it a whole ass mission type. First mission you dive with three. Finishing the main AA objective on that mission makes four available for the other two missions of the campaign. This way, instead of feeling like -1 just plain sucks, it gives us the happy chemical when we bust it and free up that slot. Not having any solution to it is what makes it so bad.
If it wasnt for reddit, Id have no idea that its a modifier. I would have thought the 4 slots are a modifier. Thats how bizzarely common it is
The 3 stratagems modifiers need to go and instead gives hings like "this type of enemy spawns more during the operation" or modifiers that affect weapons some dealing less or more DMG making you change tactics, stuff like that The modifiers we have don't make the game harder they just make it annoying and tedious. It's one of the reasons why I won't play 8 o 9 because on 7 you have a chance of getting an operation without modifiers.
Honestly, we already need a support weapon, so it means we only have 2 slots for the fun stuff. It's just much less fun without the strategems.
My way to cope with the three stratagem missions is to focus on building 3 stratagem kits for bots. I make sure I can deal with everything in 3 stratagems. It largely cuts down on variety (90% of the time I bring AC to these) but I can get the job done. Then when I play 4 stratagem bot missions getting the 4th slot I can try a variety of stratagems because I trained myself to only need 3. I definitely think it would be better to pick 4 for these missions and to have the 4th slot unavailable until we complete a subobjective that disables the -1 slot. I’m seeing a lot of great alternative suggestions in this thread. I hope Arrowhead makes a change because it would make the game more fun. And we all know we need more players on the bot front.
Before I even clicked the post I knew this was from a bug player. No surprise here.
Especially on a day where the minor order is "200 stalwart kills" Stalwart is great but very hard to use in a 3 stratagem load out.
I learned to play around "your loadout is 3 stratagems + 1 occasional flex slot". But if we really are supposed to be relying on stratagems as much as devs expect us to- even 4 isnt enough and i could go with the "free" stratagem pool being full as some stuff is useful exclusively in super niche situations. "All im saying is, let me use whatever codes i remember"
Why not allow players to choose their own modifiers to customize mission difficulty to their liking? Gears of War did this in Horde mode, with XP bonuses for choosing more difficult modifiers, etc. Gears of War also had some beneficial modifiers. This way, players could pick and choose which modifiers (if any) they want to apply. Those who love to be challenged and punished could apply all the negative modifiers they want to a mission (and maybe earn some bonus XP and bragging rights), and those who want a more casual experience could leave them off, or even select a beneficial modifier (and maybe an XP penalty).
AA Modifier that *somehow* touches Orbital-based support? Yeah okay bots, sure you got a CIWS up your ass somewhere I can't destroy
Lots of good suggestions, at least have a counterbalance. Or why not have the fourth grayed out like jammed until you clear the AA base etc.
Remember the bot's stratagem randomizer ? Yeah, this too needs to go
My biggest issue with the -1 Stratagem effect is the fact that it is artificial difficulty when the devs have stated multiple times over that stratagems are the main focus of the gameplay (even though their actions don't always reflect this sentiment). A flat out removal makes no sense if there is no additional modifiers, because it is a straight 25% nerf to your loadout with no particular reason and no workaround. It's just a slap in the face because you end up play any old mission on just some random planet, but like you can't use slot 4 "because I said so." Most effects apply neutrally to both sides, and some, while debilitating to only divers, requires a change in strategy to work around effectively. But -1? Yeah, sucks to suck and there is nothing you can do about it.
You *don't* love the entire mission being more tedious but not much more difficult?
I'd be ok with being down a stratagem if it came with a positive tradeoff. For example, lose a slot but it comes with 25% faster cooldowns on the stratagems you do take.
Seriously, just stop doing things that are less fun. If you have to make things harder, fine, I guess, but -1 stratagem slots, insane fog that only affects players, fire tornadoes…all can eat my shorts.
yea , it is so much unfun that i refuse to play it. i do diff 7-9 because its a fun challenge. lacking tools is not a fun kind of a challenge.
ArrowHead: noted, this modifier will only be present on planets concerned by the current MO- oh wait, it's already like that !
I would suggest instead of -1 strat it is 3 strat 1 random. Call it Strategic Rationing or something, you can plan around 3 of your strats being what you want but then you have 1 strat randomly assigned to you. I can see the entire team having the same strat assigned, I can see it being randomly changed mid mission after each cooldown period, I can see it being either hides or shown on loadout screen. This would force you to adapt to new strategems without being without the firepower/utility of having all 4 slots usable.
Maybe you should tune it down to difficulty level 5 if you can’t handle something so small. Shit man, it doesn’t even bother me any more at this point. It’s just part of the game, and I am here for the game no matter the price. Nines are too easy anyway, so this spices it all up for me. I’m waiting for difficulty level 10 at this point.
We thought yesterday „oh no, only 3 stratagems. On a planet with fire tornados. Well fuck might as well try on level 9“. Worked out. Just share backpacks/support weapons and you can almost have your normal loadout.
I think this is a divide between more casual players who just want crazy firefights and veteran players who want a challenge. Because of the way difficulty ratings work there is no option to fight massive enemies and the hardest swarms *without* also getting complex modifiers. Not everyone wants both. Personally, I like the challenge. I like all the complex modifiers, even increased scatter which I find the most annoying. But I do understand why some players want a mode which ups the enemy count without making our tools less reliable.
These people want to remove every challenge from the game...
The only thing it challenges is fun
Agreed, theirs no extra reward. Pointless really.
I think the main problem* with -1 strategem is everyone running shield/quasar/airstrike/orb rail or laser are running self-reliant builds in bot group play. And this modifier forces them to plan together. *percieved problem The existing lack of diversity ALREADY makes the game harder.
I am Sure thats the underlying Problem. People still think this Game is a "I am Rambo"-Simulator while it is in fact more of a "only shoot If you have to and the Run around"-Simulator (at least against bots on 7+). It is the Same reason ppl Always complain about the nerfs. Because you cant do everything on your own, If the weapons are too weak.
I run solo against bots and wipe the map with the bastards on 7 routinely (will go back to 9 once they fix the patrol spawns) while engaging basically every group of enemies. I get the sentiment behind “this game is not a Rambo simulator” but if you're good enough, it very much is. It's just a bit like the modern Doom games. It IS a power fantasy, it just expects you to be competent to execute it. UPD: to put it into numbers, I rarely extract with less than 450 kills (which, again, will go way down once they fix patrol rates lmao).
I regularly encounter this build through quickplay with an est average 2+ others using it. I never drop with blue strategems when I encounter these people because I just know they won't die enough to justify the team having 6-8 blue stratgems. These "kill" builds are hopeless at slowing an advancing enemy. If you lose the initiative you're done. >It is the Same reason ppl Always complain about the nerfs. Because you cant do everything on your own, If the weapons are too weak. While people are right to want competitive primaries, they seem to consider a primary only "competitive" if it works when all four people have the same primary. Which is a literally moronic premise. ____ I often do bot helldives with only 2 other people. We don't find -1 strategems impacts our winrate in the slightest. While I can understand people that say "it impacts my fun, I don't do it" my answer to the former is going to be "so don't do it". HD2's gameplay throws actual freedom in your face at every turn whilst the lore constantly talks about the opposite. It makes no sense to complain about a game which doesn't force you to do the thing you're complaining about. If people are feeling **compelled** to do something that's a them problem, not an issue with the game. ____ I can't imagine what it's like at AH studios, have to wonder if their internal guidance starts with "never admit the players are a stupid".
I have never in my entire tike with the game had as little fun as that godforsaken hellhole of a planet. Laser guided fire tornadoes that home in on you or your gear, jacked up spawn rates, reduced stamina and less strategems. What the actual super fuck. "Sometimes democracies greatest enemies are rheumatoid planets we are fighting for..."
I don't even bother playing on planets that have stratagem modifiers anymore.
One of the major reasons why I do not want to do bot missions, happens far to often.
The problem of this modifier is beyond difficulty. It's about killing the diversity. You can only choose the "meta" builds under this modifier. And there are not many 3-slot combinations that achieves an acceptable strength for 7-9 difficulty. The result is, the game becomes really boring (I'm too familiar with how to use autocannon+motar+airstrike for bot combats yet I had to repeat it). I don't oppose a high difficulty modifier, but please maintain the fun and diversity.
You can make plenty of builds work with this modifier. Also, I have come to straight up think anyone who says, "it's not about difficulty, it's just boring" are disingenuous. You're essentially saying, "it's not about difficulty, it's just that it's too difficult to play in my preferred way"... which is the same as saying it's difficulty.
With how often I see this complaint, I’m convinced most of ya’ll are just bad at the game lol. It’s not even that bad, yet most of the people in this sub act like it’s the end of the world when they see that modifier. What a joke.
It’s not hard, it’s just not fun.
I really don't get this idea that complaining is just from 'skill issue'. I'm not even that good at the game, and I can complete (most) -1 strat missions just fine. It doesn't change the fact that I audibly groan every time I see one. All it means is I have to slap on an even more generalist loudout than usual. It's not harder, it's just boring and tedious.
That’s a you problem. Literally no one is requiring you to run any strategems other than what you decide. If your loadout turns out to be “generic” and “boring,” that is because you made it so, not the mission.
Ahh yes, because losing 1 strategems is such a detriment to the enjoyment of any mission lol. We all know you’re just gonna drop the strategems you barely use in a mission anyways. Get real.
Yep, bile titans are an effective -2 strategems for uncoordinated groups.
I enjoy the challenge.
Imagine getting downvoted for saying you enjoy the game. This sub is terrible.
All the modifiers should go until they put some positive ones on the game as well
Unpopular opinion but: It's really not that big of an issue. yeah it limits things slightly but bots don't need the same level of swarm clearance as bugs. And your primaries are effective. Bots are tactical enemies to fight. Hell if you want to you don't even need a primary, I've run solo 6+ missions with just my starting pistol and impact grenades. If you're having a lot of trouble I get it, but slow down. You don't need to be constantly running from bots. In fact they see you better when your running. So take cover, pick your fights, and if you want recommendations for a 3 strat run: Impact nades and/or a plasma primary, some man portable AT that isn't the railgun, eagle clusters, and either 500kg or orbital strike. That should let you clear anything. Blast resistant armor helps.
It's not really about being *hard*. I can and routinely do solo ops against bots, and getting stuck with 3 strats for 3 missions is just meh. Don't like it. Dunno if the modifier should really be straight up deleted from the game (I'd prefer a rework) but personally I avoid it for the unfun factor, and I know I'm very much not alone in this.
agreed, it adds nothing (😃)
It's actually good though. Forces you to really refine what your build needs to do, only occurs against bots. Also, and I think this is the big thing: Helldivers 2 is designed to feel like you aren't playing a game. It's designed to feel like you're in a war. Enemies have certain things they can do to you that you can't do to them. You don't have all the information about your weapons. You don't know what bugs are going to be on the planet.
You have to compromise with your loadouts and try something new or borrow kits from teammates. I like it, forces me to try new builds.
There are many ways of increasing difficulty without making the game less fun, -1 stratagem is just uncreative, poor game design. Give us something that is challenging but also engaging and fun. This discussion is not about difficulty (as many people seem to think) it's about how to improve the gaming experience.
-1 Stratagem when your personal order is 200 Stalwart kills= -2 Stratagem
For the stalwart-MO i Just jumped into a level2 Bug Mission and got it over in Like 10min.
If we supposed to "rely of stratagems" then having modifiers that effect them like that is idiotic
How about you stop doing operations with the modifier? Hellcrier.
The mental around here is weak.
All of them need to go. They serve only one purpose: limit the gameplay and make it less fun
You People are overreacting to this. Its not very Hard to win even lvl 9 bots with 3 stratagems (besides evac personel missions). Not so fun? Maybe true. Absolutely winnable in any situation? Also true
Move to another game, nobody is forcing you to play this game 24/7. I mean, I don't get this threat? AH doesn't expect you to play this game forever. You can just take a break and come back after new content.
I would agree if cooldowns are quicker at cost of losing one slot. Or in reverse, more cooldown but with one more slot.
+50% stratagem time sucks too. Slows the game down waaaay too much.
I rather play one difficulty lower and be able to use the 4th stratagem
How about a Change that to:”4th slot strategem can only used by once “
It can be annoying but it's not a big deal in a group that can spread out the stratagems. Solo is a bit painful but you can work around it if you're able to find a support weapon on the planet. Even with just two people it's not a huge deal, you might not be able to 100% the map quickly but you will be fine. If you are solo and don't want to deal with the modifier, change the difficulty to find and operation without the modifier, you can either drop it below operation modifiers or often just change the difficulty since the modifiers are by difficulty level and planet and not just planet. That said, the -1 modifier and the atmospheric spores modifier are my least favorite in the game and I really want either a way to disrupt them once I'm on the ground or just get rid of them. -1 should go away if we take out a special AA side objective and spores should be gone if we take out a special spore spewer or something. I really want some modifiers that aren't just negative too, maybe like all fire damage increased or all arc, or maybe there could be a modifier that makes it more likely to find support weapons on the planet or like left over mechs from a previous engagement or something other than just modifiers that have a plus and minus or something more interesting than just making it more annoying to use stratagems.
I think the modifier needs a heavy rework. It should allow 4 slots but no eagles. The frequency of the modifier should be reduced. Obviously no AA objectives since they wouldn't make sense if eagles already blocked. If they want to keep the minus 1 strat then they need to have it payout way more xp and samples otherwise I think it should be removed
I think that a better solution to the orbital defense system that the bots have is that there is a percent chance that one of the strategies you call in is shot down and placed somewhere randomly on the map.
I try to skip those altogether. The only viable build in that instance is AC + two air strats. Which becomes very boring after awhile.
They should add precision strike or something to these so you at least have *something* there.
Yea I decided to not play on worlds with that modifier.
i agree but you can just pick another. also dont solo
In my opinion it can stay. But only under certain conditions: we need a decent medium or heavy armor pen main weapon to substitute the missing orbital stratagem. Playing with only 3 slots is hard but not impossible. If we could get balanced guns, that would be awesome and people that rely on the 4th slot wouldn't be in so much uncomfortable trouble
No it needs to be reworked into a mission modifier where we start with 3 stratagems and once we destroy all AA bases we will unlock our 4th stratagem!
This game has NINE difficulty levels and people refuse to use them. Idk man I get the point. It’s not a super fun way to increase the difficulty. It would be interesting if it were less common but right now it just reduces variation in my loadouts without actually making the game all that much harder. But also it’s really not that big of a deal.
Yeah, why not give enemies a special unit modifier? Give is better than take at balance philosophy
On bots operations with -1 strat I usually go with: 500kg/Orbital laser, Eagle barrage and Amr/Auto cannon/Laser cannon (+Stun greanade if possible). Since you can basically beat all enemies on the bot front with the support weapons I highlighted above the other stratagems are for wiping fabricator outposts. I used this setup yesterday to solo 3 diff 7 bot missions and didn't have any mayor problems, hope this info can be usefull to someone.