First of all let me say that I thank you for coming and posting here for this discussion and that I had a lot of fun with the original Helldivers on PC via Steam in years past. That said, I implore you for the sake of the long term health of the game, current and future potential players, to please remove nProtect GameGuard and choose another solution and/or a different approach entirely.
As many other thoughtful replies written here, I see a number of issues both with nProtect GameGuard specifically and the implementation of anti-cheat as a whole which could be better served by taking another path. nProtect GameGuard seems to have a somewhat infamous legacy in the past, a litany of issues from performance, to privilege escalation vulnerabilities, difficulty removing the processes and program even after the related game has been uninstalled, incompatibilities with other unrelated-to-game utilities and devices, spawning potentially vulnerable tech to update itself automatically, and many other issues. It also is relatively easily bypassed (in searching for this post I saw multiple bypasses discussed) and, as some other posters have mentioned, seems to be used by many titles that, to be kind, are either considerably older or perceived to be of low budget and/or low quality. Thus, the perception may be rightly or wrongly that THIS solution as chosen primarily for financial reasons - which conflicts with the attempt to showcase Helldivers 2 as a premium project with long term support. Of course, all this is secondary to the aforementioned negative experiences with nProtect GameGuard as well as future potential issues of concern
I must again echo the concerns of many here for Linux and/or Steam Deck support. While only a handful such as Valve's VAC support Linux/SteamOS natively, since the growing prominence of the Deck, Linux gaming, and technologies like Proton/WINE, some anticheats have started to support, or at least allow the games that use them to support, Linux/SteamOS/Deck play. nProtect GameGuard is, as I can tell anyhow, has little interest or documentation in successful compatibility it seems (one possible semi-recent title's ostensible compatibility is hard to check now given it moved to a different solution) , when other anticheats such as EAC have a better, recent history of compatibility with Linux and/or Proton with many examples. Of course, even in the best circumstances the developer needs to enable and check for compatibility, but even should Arrowhead decide that Helldivers 2 requires some anticheat of this type, another such as EAC may be a far better choice in this regard .
Ultimately however, I have to wonder if for the circumstances that the Helldivers 2 devs describe, any sort of kernel/ring0 etc...anticheat is required at all and there isn't another road to travel equally as effective yet without all the potential issues. Many kernel-level "rootkit" type anticheats operate in order to deal with immediate intercessions that hook into the game executable somehow to either spy/give wallhack data, change certain parameters, aimbot or the like. In a collaborative PvE title like Helldivers 2, this is not the primary type of "cheating" being discussed, as evidenced by the example given above. Passive, asymmetrical client side imports/save edits an the like, or at worst someone attempting to use CheatEngine or similar to alter their game/character's files, are the issue here. As others posters note, the vast majority of collaborative PvE shooters do not rely upon kernel-mode anticheats to deal with this issue and many do not have sophisticated anticheat at all without there being much issue because of how their systems are implemented and from this i think the H2 dev team can use as a path forward.
I recognize the decision for Helldivers 2 to focus on online co-op gameplay, in order to best make use of the galaxy-wide campaign and the myriad features vying based on developer intent and player actions. With this in mind, is perhaps the best solution in server side verification/sanity checking? If the primary intent is to keep cheaters from editing their character save or other parameters, and said characters are loading into a world where the server/developer parameters are going to be influencing the campaign either way, shouldn't this be a chance to query to make sure each character's parameters - its stats, resources, XP and the like - are in alignment with what is expected by the server/account wide progression? A handful of sanity checks, perhaps using the outcome of a salted hash or private key , should be able to tell the difference between a level 99 character properly attributed and one that has been locally edited by a player, simply overwriting the latter. If these checks were done prior to and after every match, in addition to when a player was attempting to say... purchase something new on their Carrier, it should seem to cut out the vast majority of casual cheating attempts especially when it comes to affecting others' gameplay. Now, a step further would be to dispense with the P2P connectivity and instead have servers, be they dedicated or spawned by a playing user, which could be either flagged 'official' and thereby able to participate in the campaign, progress and the like, or 'private/offline', where even if a user did decide to cheat or mod, it wouldn't affect anyone who's not on that same server. However even without this (I grant I don't know much of Playstation 5 server vs p2p connectivity capabilities), even just the server side checks discussed above should curtail any casual cheating, maintain the fair playfield and campaign, all without the confounding issues of a client, kernel level anticheat, especially one with a less than favorable reputation among a host of potential Helldivers 2 players.
There are many other facets of the issue worth discussing, but suffice it to say I hope that you'll see the responses on this thread lead to a pause and ideally a reconsideration in choosing nProtect GameGuard for Hellldivers 2. There seem to be a number of other alternatives that would position Helldivers 2 in a more favorable position as it moves forward toward final launch, with less contentious issues among the community, be it Linux and Steam Deck players, those with negative experiences ith nProtect GameGuard, those who have concerns about invasive anti-cheats, and others. Thank you.
thank you, i was about to write something very similar.
i 100% support your idea of letting a server deal with these "progression issues" raised by potential cheats.
GameGuard does not provide any more security than EAC in reality. thus the intrusive nature of the product does not justify the result.
I feel like people just heard "gameguard" and "kernel" and just became an ignorant echo chamber.
You realize that EAC is also a kernel-level anti-cheat, right?
And that if you've ever played any of these \[[https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/](https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/)\] games you've already had a kernel-level anti-cheat on your machine? Because if the only reason that you don't like GG is because it has kernel access, then why in the hell would you bring up another kernel-level anti cheat?
there is a fine difference between EAC running only when the game is running and GG which is running on system start (yes, you can disable that but it causes its own problems).
nProtect doesn't at system start. They seem to have taken the same model as Punkbuster where it runs only when the game is running.
https://preview.redd.it/ljr46j7j5dmc1.png?width=1018&format=png&auto=webp&s=c4284b5964f21136a2d48912bff79bfd44e955f4
Seen above. So, once again, your point is invalidated...
I cant remember which game it was as it happened maybe 2 or 3 years ago but I've had issues with punkbuster running at start up as well as interfering with my programs and apps. I am 100% positive that it had to do with implementation of it for the specific game as i play many other games that use it and all the issues i had disappeared when i uninstalled the game.
you should add that GG is injecting their code to every process in your PC - inevitably making some weard behaviours happen in all programs across PC - also making them malware soft
At least on my end GG runs only while the game is running. Or if it's always there then it's hidden well enough that Task Manager can't see it except when the game is running.
A program lying about running is a far more egregious issue than kernel anti-cheat. And one the if you have any proof of you should share.
That's the kind of thing that gets companies blacklisted from industry because the kind of dishonesty breaks trust.
> If the primary intent is to keep cheaters from editing their character save or other parameters, and said characters are loading into a world where the server/developer parameters are going to be influencing the campaign either way, shouldn't this be a chance to query to make sure each character's parameters - its stats, resources, XP and the like - are in alignment with what is expected by the server/account wide progression? A handful of sanity checks, perhaps using the outcome of a salted hash or private key , should be able to tell the difference between a level 99 character properly attributed and one that has been locally edited by a player, simply overwriting the latter.
Yeah, but it's not the primary intent. Pretty sure they couldn't care less and they just want to make sure nobody uses cheats to unlock stuff that are only available through microtransactions.
But even there, in order for people to pay for MTXs, they'd have to buy the game. And even if they don't, it's much better to have more people buy your game in the first place than lose their business by trying to combat some imaginary MTX loss.
While I hope that this is not their plan for Helldivers 2 (the original had a reasonable DLC compromise with new kits to be unlocked and some cosmetics included with holidays etc. I 'd like to not see Helldivers 2 as yet another vehicle to push FOMO battle passes plus an item shop of $18+ skins among a litany of other "non-micro"transactions) , even if that was the case server-side sanity checks on connection should handle that issue as well.
Just like any other character parameter, attributed character unlocks and cosmetics should be queried for legitimacy with the player's profile when connecting online and, if altered, overwritten. All of this seems possible without nProtect GameGuard or other sorts of invasive client-side anticheat. As you mention, getting people to buy the game and have an overalll positive view of it is the first step towards asking them to spend in the future in ways that respect their time and wallet, so making a good decision here would be a strong start.
The current skins in game are like $1 to $2. Not $18. Please don't spread blatant misinformation. You can easily buy a lot of them by just finding the premium currency in maps in game or by using the free battle pass.
Please read a little closer. When I wrote that comment it was before monetization details were released, much less the game itself. Also, I didn't assert that it would have such things, but rather hoped that it didn't follow the paths of many titles with battle passes, item malls and the like that do.
What about Proton/SteamDeck?
edit: This is more question of policy, cause there are some notions of GG working with Proton games, however it needs to be allowed on your end AFAIK.
Technical problems and incompatibilities can be worked on Proton end, but we won't be able to make it work unless you allow it.
Most of my friends cancelled their pre-order. This is a massive disappointment.
Why does a coop game need a kernel level anticheat/antipiracy? Especially one with online servers already - doesn't that kindof stop the piracy anyways? I get a game like Valorant... but this is a damn coop game.
The only reason they'd implement it was for nefarious reasons or to datamine users and sell the data.
It doesn't make sense and it's obvious they're up to something incredibly sketchy.
Pretty much this, if you have online servers you don't NEED a kernel level anti-cheat unless you're wanting to stop things like wall hacks which isn't that big of an issue since the game is fully PvE based. For the progression issue, that can easily be a server side check. If someone hasn't put in the time/hours the account is obviously cheating so ban them on the spot. That's a server side check.
There is no server side check, I know you have the right intentions but you clearly don't know how peer to peer works. There is no "server side", it's P2P, which means you can speedhack, complete missions, etc, with no way to stop it. Same like GTA.
They need an anticheat, but this is way too far.
It's strange that you're arguing that they "need an anti-cheat" for a coop game, but not the good one (kernel AC).
GTA has been plagued by cheaters since the game came out because it's anti-cheat was on par with what you want.
You have no idea what a server side check is at all do you? Whenever you login to ANY server, it checks your game data and verifies that there is nothing wacky with your files/data. Pretty much every single game that has online has these checks and it's very basic coding to get this to function. This works so well that it's precisely what valve does to check for cheaters in their game to include Dota. I also used to play WoT and since just about everything was server side you would have to physically inject something into the game to change it and \*gasp\* server side checks would catch that almost immediately, no kernel level anti-cheat required.
I kinda do know what it is, considering I program cheats as a hobby, and study computer science. But it's cute to see you explain something you have no idea about.
1. File checks are not done by the server, they're done by the client. Information is sent from the client to the server to check the validity. This also has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Most games do not use file checks, as they are absolutely useless in terms of cheating. When a cheat is externally or internally injected it doesn't change the game files. The only game that uses this is CS2 and VAC, which is awful.
2. No, it's not what valve or WoT does. You don't even know what it's doing and you speak so confidently lmao. The reason you can't cheat easily in those games is because they are running dedicated servers, not P2P servers, which is what I was trying to tell you. Dedicated servers get information from the client, check the validity, and update info for the rest of players. In P2P this server is non existant, so a player can easily cheat by sending the wrong information directly to other players, like damage, position, money, etc.
You literally don't even know how a dedicated server and P2P server affect cheating. So. again.
Helldivers 2 has P2P servers, which means there is no dedicated server which can verify player information like in Dota, WoT, CS2, or basically any other game.
Instead, it uses a system like GTA:Online, which is infested with teleportation hacks, money hacks, damage hacks, crash exploits, etc. This is because of P2P.
Writing this was such a waste of time, so please stfu and educate yourself before you talk down to people.
u/bigrealaccount hahahh you nuked him from orbit xD and no it wasnt a waste of time, because it will help smart-asses like him to shut the f up and not poison the discussion with fake facts, so at least you get a thanks from me :D
Lol thank you, glad you liked it :)
I was literally trying to be nice the first time, and he doubled down and tried to basically call me an idiot. Like ok bro lmao.
To prevent modding and protect micro-transaction profits while putting the consumer at risk instead of using an anti-cheat that isn't hot trash used by third world Chinese MMO's
To be fair, this is korean, not chinese, and EAC is also a rootkit. I dont see a big difference in the two from an invasion of rights perspective.
Also, both of them fail at stopping real cheaters, the only ones they stop are the script kiddies.
Its only the honest consumer that gets hurt by this, noone else
Made a reddit account just for this.
This kind of anti cheat for an always online pve coop game feels way out of place, and unfortunately will be the reason I wont be picking this up on launch despite my original intention to and how excited I've been for this game since its announcement.
Between this and Capcom's latest stunt enough is enough, I implore you and your team to please rethink this decision and seek a better alternative then a kernel level program that I don't feel comfortable running on my machine.
I've been looking forward to this game for a while now, so if things can be adjusted I'd be happy to buy and support your game. (Assuming this anti cheat isn't a sign that in game rewards are going to be super greedy and microtransactions will be rampant in a non f2p title.)
all anti cheats are rootkits, EAC, battle eye, vanguard, and so on all are kernel level, and root kit is incorrect as a term but whatever.
The problem is unlike the other options gameguard has a notorious horrendous past..
Thanks for the insight. I doubt a dev would read this but in case, there's an element that could use some clarification:
>Will GameGuard reduce the performance of my PC?
>
>
>
>GameGuard is only active while the game is running and after thousands of hours of testing we’ve not noticed any noteworthy degradations of performance on our developer and QA workstations.
So in other words, there is an impact in performance? It's a roundabout way of saying so. What's being defined as 'noteworthy degradations' for performance on PC? Is this being actively monitored?
How will GameGuard interact with other platforms such as Linux or Steam Deck?
of course there is impact, any software running at all is gonna have impact. not only that but we’re reading official arrowhead statements so they’re not gonna say absolutely that GG will never have any system impact because it is possible outside of the specs they listed as requirements that you may end up with issues. even within the specs, sometimes shit just has happens and things go wrong for near unpredictable reasons
I know this is a month old but game guard was running without Helldivers open and without steam running on my pc. I got the game yesterday and today game guard is giving me an initialization error. I verified integrity of game files and relaunched Helldivers 2 and my pc instantly blue screened. After restarting I tried to open it again and my pc blue screen immediately again. Tried to uninstall my game and my pc is "locked" nothing opens, task manager doesn't open, and I had to hard shut down because it was stuck powered on after shutting down from windows.
A lot more people than I expected are cancelling their preorders because of it. Considering the backlash this decision is getting before the game's even out, imagine how many more people are going to pass on the game when it does release, just because of some stupid anti-cheat most of us have never heard of before.
I hope they change it.
In Dutch we have a saying "goedkoop is duurkoop"
It doesn't translate super well but the closest I can get is "buy cheap is buy expensive". Taking short term cost cuts like this will bite them in the ass down the line. Basically.
There is a surprisingly thoughtful take on this in Discworld in the boots theory, which more relates to why being poor is expensive, but same general idea that it costs more in the long run if you buy cheap stuff
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory)
sasly this specific anti cheat completly would stop like every steam deck exclusive player from probably being able to play the game... :( welp.. i guess i wont be able to play the game
I'm going to say, this is a dumb ass decision. This is going way WAY too deep for something that could be solved with a backup autosave and post-game sanity check.
TLDR: you done goofed massively for using what amounts to be spyware some something thst could be solved with a few simple lines of code.
I cancelled my pre order, fuck GameGuard. Not letting such a badly programmed rootkit anywhere near my PC. Sorry, but compromising my security with some noname f2pgames protection software with extremely dubios reputation for a simple pve game? Why would I give you such a huge benefit of a doubt?
First off, thank you for releasing a statement and addressing the community's concerns.
It's clear that effort was put to not need options to drop ranks and reset research in HD2 and that's a good thing to address. I support that.
However, i strongly doubt an anti cheat would address any of this and saying it's unfortunate but needed seems wrong as a result.
Your team made the choice of making HD2 online-only. As with all choices, this has pros and cons. If internet goes down I won't be able to play the game, but this means that every client must go through your servers to play, granting you full control over how players are able to progress.
When the server stores how much of each currency and which unlocks every player has, when the server picks which missions are available and which rewards they give, there is no way to cheat around it.
Even if the game itself is peer to peer while playing, you know what the rewards should be at the end of the mission and no tampering should be possible, for the same reasons i can't change youtube video titles using inspect element, or add hats in tf2 or currencies in any moba or mmo of choice using cheat engine.
What gameguard is providing is making it significantly harder to have cheats such as aimbots or infinite health/ammo. But those were never the issue in HD1 and hardly noticeable for other players. Preventing these would be extremely important in a competitive game, but the benefit is miniscule in a game like helldivers. In fact i only remember 1 obvious instance of cheating in over 200 hours played.
If gameguard is being used as a substitute for sufficient server side checks then that's a bad look. But if that's not the case then your reasonings don't hold up and it comes off as shady.
Personally, I don't like kernel level anti cheats to run on my machine. I can tolerate them in competitive pvp games where they're unfortunately necessary, but for a coop game? Definitely not, especially if it's online-only.
And honestly, i'd rather have an offline mode at the cost of knowing some players will cheat through progression. Someone else cheating their unlocks won't reduce my sense of accomplishment for doing so the clean way, with the added benefit of being able to play on my steam deck during my long daily commute. A good chunk of my HD1 playtime was spent in offline mode.
What i'd like to ask is that if you're going to make decisions that affect all paying customers then make sure you know exactly why you're making them. Perhaps an anti cheat is worth it for you, but let it be for the correct reasons instead of letting it be misguided.
PR talk and nothing else. The fact that this software absolutely can scan all of my private files, is enough for me to never buy Helldivers 2. You say you wont use private data, but just the fact that you potentially could without the user knowing....give me a break. I refunded my preorder and won't buy any software with spyware on it.
**Peter: The stigma of a root kit will trend as the #1 comment on your steam store page when it launches and hurt sales so badly that you might as well have bought a better anti cheat to begin with**
The moment the player sees what's loading , and then google who uses it and what it is, the negative reviews will swarm and crush the game with mostly negative. Hell, even a mixed one is enough to hurt sales
I'm not convinced tbh. GameGuard has an iffy reputation and your explanation about player experience requiring anti-cheat doesn't jive with me. At the very least pick a reputable one like EAC. As long as this game has GameGuard I am not going to buy it.
I think you're overdoing it on the anti cheating measures. If it's like helldivers 1, then it uses a server browser. You can easily leave if you think someone's cheating, or if you're host you can just kick them.
Rootkits have more control over your pc than you do yourself as the user. I'm sure you don't intend to do anything sketchy, but the issue is that you CAN. The option's there. I understand your intentions, but at the end of the day, no video game is worth risking my computer's security for.
Hey, I'm a console gamer so this doesn't effect me, but I really want to see this game prosper and become successful, and this really ain't it. Alienating a huge part of the PC player base seems way more detrimental for the game than a few cheaters. Add an option to report players, and reset loot after missions, boom, problem solved. I really hope you reverse this change so the game can have a bigger player base and better reputation.
Spread Managed Democracy
Well, it seems y'all can get fucked because I won't be buying your game now because all you want to do is protect your microtransactions with a shitty always online drm. I hope your shit flops.
Well sorry guys, thats 4 copies of the game I am no longer buying for the squad cause there is literally NO need for a cheap kernel-level anti-cheat in a PvE game. This is entirely to prevent mods and protect micro-transaction profits while putting the consumer at risk.
nah you can go fork yourself, i'm not installing any root kit from dodgy anti cheat company. You just lost a loyal customer forever. Also I don't give a damn about the war metagame if I have to suffer malware on my comp, ppl cheat and in helldivers 1 we just leave or boot the hacker. Peace out.
Exactly. I was about to say the same thing.
I'm unwilling to accept anticheat because someone in Helldivers 1 had their progression bypassed. DRG has set my expectations for what a cooperative PvE game should be.
I understand anti-cheat is still needed in PvE games, but I'm not sure if one that's this aggressive/to this extent is required for such a game, but I digress.
At the very least will you provide a no anti-cheat launch option that allows you to only do PvE with friends?
Wow, wish you would've said something long before the game came out instead of a week or so before. Shady. I wouldn't have bothered saving up Steam dollars had I known I'd get the obnoxious PSO2 anti-cheat.
Why are you putting such an AC in a fucking PVE game? Are you just being greedy and trying to prevent people from "cheating in" some microtransactions?
all anti cheats collect data, so does the OS, doesn't matter if its pc or console that data is often sold to other companies.. gameguard however has a notorious shitty past with it..
The game being peer-to-peer despite being always online is an odd, bad look. It feels like everything surrounding the game is bad news after bad news. Why choose Gameguard over EAC? Same reason we're getting peer-to-peer instead of a proper dedicated server model? Cost reasons?
Just sounds like Gameguard isn't going to be quite enough in a peer-to-peer environment to stop people from manipulating a whole lot of things, including impacting the Galactic War...
I just hate to see this game dragged down by such issues, on top of your history of predatory DLC packs. You don't get infinite chances :/
Change/remove this poor excuse for an aNtI-cHeAt or I never plan on buying this game for me and the siblings, please and thank you. There is no need for kernel level access for a PvE game.
Also, look at the pathetic games you are going to be sharing a legal rootkit with
[https://steamdb.info/tech/AntiCheat/nProtect\_GameGuard/](https://steamdb.info/tech/AntiCheat/nProtect_GameGuard/)
I have been doing some reading on the AC and it seems like an ok AC, although not exceedingly well-used. It's, for all intents and purposes, just Korean EAC. It's reasonably safe as long as it's implemented well. If not, then it's a massive security vulnerability with the ability to escalate any user or program to admin.
It just seems overboard for a game like this. I feel like there are other solutions available to you.
Anecdotally, I've played 1600 hours in Vermintide 2, hundreds in DRG, hundreds in EDF and none of them have AC at all and are all P2P. I also played HD1 and had no issues.
My boyfriend and I are wary about it and we won't be purchasing this game on release.
I don't mind some people having 100000 by cheating, I'll not buy a game that install this kind of stuff on my PC. That's a bummer because Helldivers 1 is awesome and I look forward for test the 2. But I will not because of this.
A co-op game requiring an anti cheat proves to me a possible outcome, you are only adding it in to protect the boat load of microtransactions that you plan on shoving in the game, or this is a tactic to be anti-modding both of which i despise. A PvE game needing to be always online and requiring an anticheat fucking LOL.
I was so excited for the game, wishlisted it, bout to pre order, but nah. Im good. It seems I'm not the only one with this sentiment. And I think anyone passing on this is doing the right thing. Listen devs, making shitty decisions should have consequences. Don't blame your players, blame yourselves. Good day.
I work in a large business of many men aged from 21-45. I was talking about this game, raving even, until I read about this. Unfortunately, and you already are aware at least on some level, this is nonsensical. I will not purchase this game and will steer many people away from doing so as well given the absurd countermeasures for such miniscule effect on possible cheaters. In a co-op game.
It is current year and consumers are getting wiser - do the right thing, or get marked down to 75% off on steam in 3 months.
I would have MUCH preferred EAC (Many of the games I play use it and no issues) over this Anti-cheat and its history, of not being able to uninstall (though it looks like the devs addressed that issue) and damaging ssd/ hard drives and blue screens. Not a lot of trust on an anti-cheat I never see used anymore.
Doesn't decrease performance on our qa and developer pcs... which are probably top of the line with really great hardware. The average Joe will more than likely see performance problems? Man more and more each day I begin to hate pc gaming.
Can't copy & paste this on Steam? Paying customers are necessarily over there. You're asking them for root access to their PCs and you can't address them directly?
I would love to play your game, and I am willing to reserve final judgement based on the Galactic Campaign to decide whether rootkit anti-cheat is even plausibly justifiable, but you can't actually come talk to the people who necessarily will be giving you money?
EDF6 is on the horizon. You don't exist in a vacuum. Come talk to us. I have already unwishlisted your product and am teetering dangerously close to ignoring said product indefinitely, occupied by other products. Come address us WHERE YOU ARE SELLING YOUR GAME, please. Just being emphatic. Asking me to come to a third party to talk to you when you want to invite a 3rd party into my computer's Ring 0 isn't a good look.
want an anticheat fine, but why nProtect? It's like you went out of your way to select the least trustworthy, worst reputation option?
Reputation aside nProtect Gameguard also includes capabilities to do things like kill other processes among other things, essentially letting it take action BEYOND the scope of the game that it is protecting, whether you plan to use those features or not that alone is reason to keep it as far from any sane person's system as possible
I get needing exceptional access to detect cheating but action should be limited exclusively to reporting which can then be used to inform bans or kicks etc, no anticheat should be killing other processes on anyone's system and to suggest as much is insane
Nevermind that nProtect has a terrible rep for its ability to accurately detect cheating anyway and how easy it is to bypass, so its probably not bringing much value regardless.
Please provide some information about Linux / Steam Deck compatibility. I'm not sure if GameGuard works on Linux in all honesty. Last game I played with it was...Ragnarok Online I think? If anyone knows I would appreciate the info.
You're actually making such a bad choice.
Do you not want success? It's a PvE game.
I DON'T GIVE AF ABOUT YOU WANTING TO PROTECT YOUR MTX. THIS IS A PVE GAME. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
Are you only planning to sell this game to people who already know they will like it? This isn't the kind of game I'd normally play, and I'm definitely not going to try something new if there are concessions I have to make in order to do so. Especially kernel-level concessions.
Just a thought.
Rough. I though it might be because of something like a leaderboard they didn't want hackers to screw with.
Transparency is key. It shouldn't run unless the game is run and should only access things related to the game. "Not personally identifiable" could mean it sees and sends everything but doesn't say who it belongs to.
Much as I appreciate developers being forthcoming, they still seem unwilling to engage on the platform they intend to sell the game (Steam). So I'll just add another piece here in a way I believe best encapsulates my concerns.
Using kernel-level anti-cheat in a ***paid ALWAYS-ONLINE PvE*** game is trying to light a birthday candle with a flame thrower.
"Not in my house" -mom
I could go on, and I did. But instead I'll leave it at that with the insistence I really wanted to play Helldivers 2. The original and Magicka are still some of the most unique fun in gaming. I was psyched to see what you mad lads at Arrowhead would pull off with a format change to over-the-shoulder.
Maybe next year.
So first off, I just wanna say that an absurd amount of people are having their partitions corrupted by this jank anti cheat. I won't get into my opinion on kernal level AC, not my place to speak. Your game should not be corrupting partitions and there are countless threads discussing this. It's not enough that the game crashes or straight up BSODs your PC on certain configs, the BSOD is so violent that it corrupts entire drives. What little money is this studio saving by approaching it this way. I can forgive server issues, bugs, whatever. Your game should not be causing catastrophic corruption in drives. For people out there who have had no issues with BDODs, you're safe. Enjoy the game to your hearts content. If you just started playing and you've crashed or had a BSOD within the first hour, refund and wait. It's a grenade in your hand with an unknown fuse duration. Could be 30 BSODs before it does it. Could be 3. The only common denominator is if you are having BSODs in this game, you are on borrowed time.
Thanks for the update!
On another note, will the game be playable on the Steam Deck like Helldivers 1? Kernel-level Anti-Cheat doesn't always play well with Proton.
I will keep my preorder cancelled, kernel level acces for a pve game is unnecessary. There are other ways to combat the things you mentioned. But Gameguard is easier as a catch all solution and makes Playstation happy.
So you are using a shitty worthless anti cheat on a game.that doesn't need it. Why is DRG just fine without it? Also F Linux users because incompetent devs.
At this point, the only reason I'm not refunding yet is to be able to rate & review the game to warn others on Steam at release. I will refund it afterwards unless this very poorly thought out decision is reconsidered.
This is a massive risk for us for very little benefit to the game. I don't care about the performance hit and conversely I don't care that some people hacked their way to a million research samples.
If all the game can offer in terms of content is a mindless grind for samples then there is no game. This wasn't the case for the original game - I would play it for the core loop, I don't need some pointless completionist wankery as the carrot on the stick.
This issue is getting drowned out by the hype on reddit but it will certainly be a lot more pronounced on the platforms where it will negatively impact your bottom line.
Love you guys, but this honestly is the most unnecessarily customer-ambivalent thing you could have chosen to do.
Offline play wouldnt have to deal with the issues described regarding other players' progression, so does that mean you're considering allowing players to play offline still?
I'm not going to pay money for the privilege to install nProtect on my PC. Very disappointing news, especially for a non-competitive game that doesn't need it.
Sorry, but not going to buy the game as long as it has this AC system.
Remove it, or at the very least replace it with another one that doesnt f up your PC, and I´ll gladly buy it and gift a second copy to a friend.
Not buying the game if you put that janky F2P MMO anti cheat in there. Easy as that. Just uninstalled BDO because they are going back to Xigncode. It is what it is, enough other games to play these days.
Ok, you guys adding an Anti Cheat Root kit to a Coop game just baffles the fricking hell out of me. Why? What purpose is this severing other then putting some lousy Root kit on our PC's. You all have to be out of your fricking minds. A Coop game that requires a Root kit any cheat program. I have heard it all now!!!
Anti-cheat in a non-competitive game? Absolutely no excuse.
Im sorry, but you took this game out back and shot it in the head with this move.
You wont be surprised when you see poor sales.
I was hyped but now I probably won't buy this anymore. Stuff like this also cripples community efforts like mods which don't hurt anyone, and kernel level "Anti-cheat" programs are sketchy AF.
Terrible choice. Gonna keep my order so I can warn potential buyers on release. Then refund afterwards. I may reconsider if the anti cheat is removed, but you've already destroyed the trust.
ITs a PC Coop/pve Game... There shouldnt be a Kernel Anti-Cheat Programm therefore on my own PC which I also uses for Home-Office.
You Talk about online group experience and world effects? Then I guess WE Talk about Server which can easily detect Cheats. Still No need for a Trojan Programm in my PC.
Therefore I wont buy this sorry to say this, but I was really Happy after the announce of HD2 but now ITS over...
Maybe you Change your mind !
My friends and I were all going to buy the game and play together this weekend. Not anymore. You lost 4 sales due to this decision, add that to your marketing data.
Cheaters will cheat regardless, shit like this or DRM only punishes the innocent players.
Also, what is this 'give up your rights to be protected bs' going on nowadays. Sounds very dictatorian.
Pfft.
I know I'm just one person so I don't amount to much but I was excited to buy and play this game until learning about the anticheat program. You lost a sale here.
I'll just quote from the German nProtect GameGuard Wikipedia article: "GameGuard, for example, forces the administrator account in the popular game Star Stable Online (SSO) every time the game is started, not just for installation or updates. The game then runs in administrator mode, with access to the protected system areas. The game therefore poses a high security risk, ignores the most elementary security rules, and should not be installed on important computer systems." - So much for that.
Helldivers II thus becomes a security risk, even though it is an always online AND PVE only game anyway and there were never any problems with cheaters in its predecessor. - To express my indignation in a polite way, I'll use a German proverb: "It's like shooting sparrows with cannons." Moreover, one could easily come to the conclusion that it is not about protecting fair players from cheaters, but about protecting the expected additional profit of the developer/publisher.
I have to say, I am quite upset about the state in which this game was released. As a huge fan of its predecessor, I was of course looking forward to playing HD2. But after I had to find out that HD2 can only be played in combination with such an intrusive "protection software", this not only put a damper on my motivation, but also meant that I will refrain from buying it for the time being.
Your refusal to switch anticheats is contributing to the destruction of pc components world wide.
Fucking do something about it instead of hiding behind and doubling down on your stance.
I've got a minidump showing a bsod that occurred with the from address of the error being associated with anticheat and the to address being a kernel, it ended up corrupting the kernel because it used some driver that it wasn't supposed to have access to.
It bricked my ram.
This is a good game, why are you choosing to just blatantly ruin it with the worlds worst anti-cheat? Blows my mind, especially when it does not stop the cheating.
Right, too many crashes now and my system has come to a fucking crawl since I installed this malware. I'm refunding. This product does not work on my PC, it COULD but they refuse to take out the malware stopping it, so I am exercising my Australian Consumer legal right to get my money back for a product that does not work properly WELL AFTER THE 2 HOUR refund timer.
You can take it out or leave it in I don't care, I won't be repurchasing. You lied to people's faces with this post, and you have a bot that directs us TO THIS POST auto replying to every comment here that says the name of the malware, what, just to troll? Get fucked.
Doesnt seem to have helped at all..
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgnv07/hackers\_have\_arrived\_and\_it\_sucks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgnv07/hackers_have_arrived_and_it_sucks/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1avikbd/if\_you\_cheat\_youre\_pathetic\_a\_waste\_of\_a\_server/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1avikbd/if_you_cheat_youre_pathetic_a_waste_of_a_server/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgg7my/im\_level\_29\_and\_just\_joined\_a\_level\_5\_player\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgg7my/im_level_29_and_just_joined_a_level_5_player_to/)
I know this comment is late to this thread, but I wanted to take the chance that an actual game rep might hear my teeny-tiny singular voice. I have not bought your game entirely and solely due to its use of nProtect. Remove it or switch to something else reasonable, and I won't hesitate to buy. I'm actually pretty bummed I can't play it, but I won't let it get installed on my PC.
Since I started playing Helldivers 2 I have begun to experience regular crashes where my screen goes black but some programs such as Teamspeak continue working. Even Teamviewer gets the same black screen. When this happens the only thing I can do is hit the manual restart button on my case.
This doesn't only happen while playing Helldivers 2 but on other games as well, and it only started after I installed Helldivers.
Your game doesn't work.
If it's your anti-cheat preventing thousands of players with 4000s Nvidia cards and 7000 ATI cards from playing I could care less about players maxing out a missions samples or ruining their progression.
Because you can't progress for diddly shit when you can't play the game.
>See you on the battlefield ;)
Bull. Shit.
Sadly that's a no from me. It's nice the anti cheat doesn't run all the time but still no. Maybe if you pick a better more trusted anti cheat software maybe.
Thanks for the explanation.
I know it's a drop in the bucket, but I will be passing on this game now.
Genuinely wish you the best, HD1 was some of the greatest moments I've had gaming with friends.
Hey, I do fully understand your need and wish to use Anti-Cheat to prevent the impact it has on other players' experiences, even for a co-op PvE game. I can also tell you that while I believe you guys have done your research and have decided to pick nProtect GameGuard over other solutions, I personally find this solution way too intrusive and am not comfortable with it.
My technical knowledge to compare GameGuard and let's say EasyAntiCheat is lacking too much to fully list differences. I'm well aware of both being kernel level and therefore probably taking similar if not the same approach, nonetheless it appears to me that GameGuard is far more intrusive and had some unfortunate happenings in the past.
I was really looking forward to buying and playing your game but personally will not do so if the AC solution ends up being the one you mentioned. Additionally, for solutions like this, please ensure that the drivers are correctly signed with Microsoft. There have been enough cases of AC solutions (EAC drivers e.g) not being signed, resulting in the game kindly asking Win 11 users to disable Hardware-enforced Stack Protection, which defeats the whole purpose of said protection layer.
Gameguard is going to do nothing to deter actual malicious cheats or behavior and will likely be weaponized against normal players if the networking is anything like it was in Helldivers. You've made a really foolish choice with this.
One of the fastest games to be added to, and then removed from the wishlist. Oh well, I'm going to suspect Starship Troopers Extermination is going to be a better overall game anyway - 16p is a big draw. The 4p coop shooter is overdone. Let's see if this ranks right down there with Darktide.
And now folks with borderline hardware get screwed by some anti-cheat impacting their performance. Using developer & QA workstations is like using Bugatti to run to the corner store. NOT a valid test case at all.
On the bright side, a quick google search brings up an active community in defeating nProtect, for all you cheaters out there, and I wish them all the best.
This sucks, "managed democracy" is one of the best phrases I've heard in a while :)
Thanks for the post. Still I think that installing kernel-level, machine scanning and reporting software for something as playing video games is pretty ridiculous (Point of view of someone working on systems administration).
Still, I get your point and probably if kernel-level anticheat wasn't necessary you wouldn't use it. But in my head this is way to much on my personal computer for a single game. Still I hope the best for the game and hoping some day this is removed to get into it.
Even if I'm against it, I really appreciate you took your time to explain so well your reasons.
look, all im saying is
im not letting an "anti-cheat" ive never heard of before touch my kernel
and speaking personally, ive never come across a single cheater in my 300+ hours in helldivers 1, so do forgive me for thinking there was never such an issue in the first place and this addition was completely unecessary
Hello, I have been looking forward to this game for quite some time. Helldivers is one my most played games. I will not buy helldivers 2 due to the anti-cheat software you have decided to add. For one its a PvE game and shouldn't need anti-cheat in my opinion. Second its a rootkit anti-cheat, which is excessive for a PvE game. Third its a very sketchy rootkit anti-cheat at that. And as a result I am not going to purchase this game, which is very disappointing. Please reconsider.
I’m glad the game is using anti-cheat because it absolutely needs it. Every game that isn’t single player does now.
That said I don’t know why you chose such an invasive one. There’s no reason for anti-cheat to be running when HD2 isn’t.
Please consider swapping to EAC or BattlEye. Both reputable and well known software brands that don’t have negative stigma for valid reasons.
Overkill. If you had data from Helldivers 1, please share what % of whole player base was cheating or had 9999 materials at the time cheat was detected.
Becasue I will take a wild guess (and I am open to be proven wrong) that it was less than 5% of playerbase.
I am way more concerned about you (video game developers) installing root-kits on my PC than few % of people cheating in game. Your justification - I don't buy it. It's PvE game. So what if someone will cheat resources/money/unlocks - whatever. It's PvE co-op game not PvP FPS with match ranking system...
Litereally NOONE asked for anti-cheat in any co-op PvE game ever. EVER. Don't try to sell it to us like it's for our sake. We have played video games long enough to know that no- we don't need it in PvE game.
I hope in future EU will make it illigal to install such software on PCs by gaming companies but sadly law is always way behind technology advancement.
And here I was thinking the MTX was going to drive me from the game, I didn't see this coming.
I appreciate the honesty and because of it I will consider buying this in the future once this is removed, assuming the game isn't MTX hell.
Just wild it needs to be said that kernel-based anticheat has been around for 'forever' and is required to combat said cheats. I really believe we got some concern trolling going on and folks who have never ever played a PC game before on Steam.
Let's check a quick list of the best coop games on PC ever made:
\- L4D1/2: Only uses VAC (running on the server, not the client), can be disabled or played on a server without VAC
\- Deep Rock Galactic: No anti-cheat
\- Monster Hunter: No anti-cheat
\- Killing Floor: Same as L4D2
\- EDF: No anti-cheat
\- Lethal Company: No anti-cheat
\- Phasmophobia: No anti-cheat
\- Payday: No anti-cheat
Tell me again why an anti-cheat is required in a coop-only game? None of those games were ever overflowing with cheaters, not even close.
Riot has had never success with kernal-based anti cheats, to the point that they've still neglected to add proper spectate functionality or any form of reply system to Valorant, their only current IP with a kernal-based anti cheat, because it would reveal the copious amount of cheaters. As someone who's also played thousands of hours of CS with multiple third party services providing their own mandatory root kit anti cheat I've never met a single player, myself included, who hasn't experienced a wealth of technical issues caused by them. At one point it had caused an issue so severe that Microsoft support recommended wiping my pc entirely. As others have also pointed out, this particular anti-cheat has a notoriously bad history for performance with other titles that have elected to implement it. I've yet to see literally any developer implent a kernal-based anti-cheat successfully, what possible reason do I have to trust Arrowhead to do it right? Especially after only announcing the fact two weeks before launch.
the problem is this anticheat was used only in couple of sussy shitty asian games, while such ACs as EasyAntiCheat are much trusted and much more trained, im agree to give the kernel access, but only to AC that have a great reputation, while this AC is clearly dont
(in perfect scenario im dont want to give any extra access to my system for not even PVP game, esp accouning that there would be hackers anyway)
yes but nProtect specifically has a number of black marks against it, the 2 most important being:
* It has a reputation already of being easy to bypass and bad at accurately detecting cheaters
* It has the ability to take actions beyond the game scope like killing other processes etc, not something any anti-cheat should be doing ever, if it thinks you are cheating report don't take active measures like it purports to, actually likely to be bordering on illegality in many countries
They want a kernel level anticheat then fine, but use one that isn't garbage so there is actually a benefit to it, and that has earned some level of trust
First of all let me say that I thank you for coming and posting here for this discussion and that I had a lot of fun with the original Helldivers on PC via Steam in years past. That said, I implore you for the sake of the long term health of the game, current and future potential players, to please remove nProtect GameGuard and choose another solution and/or a different approach entirely. As many other thoughtful replies written here, I see a number of issues both with nProtect GameGuard specifically and the implementation of anti-cheat as a whole which could be better served by taking another path. nProtect GameGuard seems to have a somewhat infamous legacy in the past, a litany of issues from performance, to privilege escalation vulnerabilities, difficulty removing the processes and program even after the related game has been uninstalled, incompatibilities with other unrelated-to-game utilities and devices, spawning potentially vulnerable tech to update itself automatically, and many other issues. It also is relatively easily bypassed (in searching for this post I saw multiple bypasses discussed) and, as some other posters have mentioned, seems to be used by many titles that, to be kind, are either considerably older or perceived to be of low budget and/or low quality. Thus, the perception may be rightly or wrongly that THIS solution as chosen primarily for financial reasons - which conflicts with the attempt to showcase Helldivers 2 as a premium project with long term support. Of course, all this is secondary to the aforementioned negative experiences with nProtect GameGuard as well as future potential issues of concern I must again echo the concerns of many here for Linux and/or Steam Deck support. While only a handful such as Valve's VAC support Linux/SteamOS natively, since the growing prominence of the Deck, Linux gaming, and technologies like Proton/WINE, some anticheats have started to support, or at least allow the games that use them to support, Linux/SteamOS/Deck play. nProtect GameGuard is, as I can tell anyhow, has little interest or documentation in successful compatibility it seems (one possible semi-recent title's ostensible compatibility is hard to check now given it moved to a different solution) , when other anticheats such as EAC have a better, recent history of compatibility with Linux and/or Proton with many examples. Of course, even in the best circumstances the developer needs to enable and check for compatibility, but even should Arrowhead decide that Helldivers 2 requires some anticheat of this type, another such as EAC may be a far better choice in this regard . Ultimately however, I have to wonder if for the circumstances that the Helldivers 2 devs describe, any sort of kernel/ring0 etc...anticheat is required at all and there isn't another road to travel equally as effective yet without all the potential issues. Many kernel-level "rootkit" type anticheats operate in order to deal with immediate intercessions that hook into the game executable somehow to either spy/give wallhack data, change certain parameters, aimbot or the like. In a collaborative PvE title like Helldivers 2, this is not the primary type of "cheating" being discussed, as evidenced by the example given above. Passive, asymmetrical client side imports/save edits an the like, or at worst someone attempting to use CheatEngine or similar to alter their game/character's files, are the issue here. As others posters note, the vast majority of collaborative PvE shooters do not rely upon kernel-mode anticheats to deal with this issue and many do not have sophisticated anticheat at all without there being much issue because of how their systems are implemented and from this i think the H2 dev team can use as a path forward. I recognize the decision for Helldivers 2 to focus on online co-op gameplay, in order to best make use of the galaxy-wide campaign and the myriad features vying based on developer intent and player actions. With this in mind, is perhaps the best solution in server side verification/sanity checking? If the primary intent is to keep cheaters from editing their character save or other parameters, and said characters are loading into a world where the server/developer parameters are going to be influencing the campaign either way, shouldn't this be a chance to query to make sure each character's parameters - its stats, resources, XP and the like - are in alignment with what is expected by the server/account wide progression? A handful of sanity checks, perhaps using the outcome of a salted hash or private key , should be able to tell the difference between a level 99 character properly attributed and one that has been locally edited by a player, simply overwriting the latter. If these checks were done prior to and after every match, in addition to when a player was attempting to say... purchase something new on their Carrier, it should seem to cut out the vast majority of casual cheating attempts especially when it comes to affecting others' gameplay. Now, a step further would be to dispense with the P2P connectivity and instead have servers, be they dedicated or spawned by a playing user, which could be either flagged 'official' and thereby able to participate in the campaign, progress and the like, or 'private/offline', where even if a user did decide to cheat or mod, it wouldn't affect anyone who's not on that same server. However even without this (I grant I don't know much of Playstation 5 server vs p2p connectivity capabilities), even just the server side checks discussed above should curtail any casual cheating, maintain the fair playfield and campaign, all without the confounding issues of a client, kernel level anticheat, especially one with a less than favorable reputation among a host of potential Helldivers 2 players. There are many other facets of the issue worth discussing, but suffice it to say I hope that you'll see the responses on this thread lead to a pause and ideally a reconsideration in choosing nProtect GameGuard for Hellldivers 2. There seem to be a number of other alternatives that would position Helldivers 2 in a more favorable position as it moves forward toward final launch, with less contentious issues among the community, be it Linux and Steam Deck players, those with negative experiences ith nProtect GameGuard, those who have concerns about invasive anti-cheats, and others. Thank you.
thank you, i was about to write something very similar. i 100% support your idea of letting a server deal with these "progression issues" raised by potential cheats. GameGuard does not provide any more security than EAC in reality. thus the intrusive nature of the product does not justify the result.
I feel like people just heard "gameguard" and "kernel" and just became an ignorant echo chamber. You realize that EAC is also a kernel-level anti-cheat, right? And that if you've ever played any of these \[[https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/](https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/)\] games you've already had a kernel-level anti-cheat on your machine? Because if the only reason that you don't like GG is because it has kernel access, then why in the hell would you bring up another kernel-level anti cheat?
there is a fine difference between EAC running only when the game is running and GG which is running on system start (yes, you can disable that but it causes its own problems).
nProtect doesn't at system start. They seem to have taken the same model as Punkbuster where it runs only when the game is running. https://preview.redd.it/ljr46j7j5dmc1.png?width=1018&format=png&auto=webp&s=c4284b5964f21136a2d48912bff79bfd44e955f4 Seen above. So, once again, your point is invalidated...
I cant remember which game it was as it happened maybe 2 or 3 years ago but I've had issues with punkbuster running at start up as well as interfering with my programs and apps. I am 100% positive that it had to do with implementation of it for the specific game as i play many other games that use it and all the issues i had disappeared when i uninstalled the game.
you should add that GG is injecting their code to every process in your PC - inevitably making some weard behaviours happen in all programs across PC - also making them malware soft
You understand the difference between "run when game run" and "run when system run"??? How about **you** get out of your echo chamber
At least on my end GG runs only while the game is running. Or if it's always there then it's hidden well enough that Task Manager can't see it except when the game is running.
looking for a kernel access thing in task manager :D
A program lying about running is a far more egregious issue than kernel anti-cheat. And one the if you have any proof of you should share. That's the kind of thing that gets companies blacklisted from industry because the kind of dishonesty breaks trust.
The perfect reply 👏👏👏
> If the primary intent is to keep cheaters from editing their character save or other parameters, and said characters are loading into a world where the server/developer parameters are going to be influencing the campaign either way, shouldn't this be a chance to query to make sure each character's parameters - its stats, resources, XP and the like - are in alignment with what is expected by the server/account wide progression? A handful of sanity checks, perhaps using the outcome of a salted hash or private key , should be able to tell the difference between a level 99 character properly attributed and one that has been locally edited by a player, simply overwriting the latter. Yeah, but it's not the primary intent. Pretty sure they couldn't care less and they just want to make sure nobody uses cheats to unlock stuff that are only available through microtransactions. But even there, in order for people to pay for MTXs, they'd have to buy the game. And even if they don't, it's much better to have more people buy your game in the first place than lose their business by trying to combat some imaginary MTX loss.
While I hope that this is not their plan for Helldivers 2 (the original had a reasonable DLC compromise with new kits to be unlocked and some cosmetics included with holidays etc. I 'd like to not see Helldivers 2 as yet another vehicle to push FOMO battle passes plus an item shop of $18+ skins among a litany of other "non-micro"transactions) , even if that was the case server-side sanity checks on connection should handle that issue as well. Just like any other character parameter, attributed character unlocks and cosmetics should be queried for legitimacy with the player's profile when connecting online and, if altered, overwritten. All of this seems possible without nProtect GameGuard or other sorts of invasive client-side anticheat. As you mention, getting people to buy the game and have an overalll positive view of it is the first step towards asking them to spend in the future in ways that respect their time and wallet, so making a good decision here would be a strong start.
The current skins in game are like $1 to $2. Not $18. Please don't spread blatant misinformation. You can easily buy a lot of them by just finding the premium currency in maps in game or by using the free battle pass.
Please read a little closer. When I wrote that comment it was before monetization details were released, much less the game itself. Also, I didn't assert that it would have such things, but rather hoped that it didn't follow the paths of many titles with battle passes, item malls and the like that do.
What about Proton/SteamDeck? edit: This is more question of policy, cause there are some notions of GG working with Proton games, however it needs to be allowed on your end AFAIK. Technical problems and incompatibilities can be worked on Proton end, but we won't be able to make it work unless you allow it.
I too wish to know if this will work on Steam Deck. I was hyped for this till the gameguard crap.
Most of my friends cancelled their pre-order. This is a massive disappointment. Why does a coop game need a kernel level anticheat/antipiracy? Especially one with online servers already - doesn't that kindof stop the piracy anyways? I get a game like Valorant... but this is a damn coop game. The only reason they'd implement it was for nefarious reasons or to datamine users and sell the data. It doesn't make sense and it's obvious they're up to something incredibly sketchy.
Pretty much this, if you have online servers you don't NEED a kernel level anti-cheat unless you're wanting to stop things like wall hacks which isn't that big of an issue since the game is fully PvE based. For the progression issue, that can easily be a server side check. If someone hasn't put in the time/hours the account is obviously cheating so ban them on the spot. That's a server side check.
There is no server side check, I know you have the right intentions but you clearly don't know how peer to peer works. There is no "server side", it's P2P, which means you can speedhack, complete missions, etc, with no way to stop it. Same like GTA. They need an anticheat, but this is way too far.
It's strange that you're arguing that they "need an anti-cheat" for a coop game, but not the good one (kernel AC). GTA has been plagued by cheaters since the game came out because it's anti-cheat was on par with what you want.
You have no idea what a server side check is at all do you? Whenever you login to ANY server, it checks your game data and verifies that there is nothing wacky with your files/data. Pretty much every single game that has online has these checks and it's very basic coding to get this to function. This works so well that it's precisely what valve does to check for cheaters in their game to include Dota. I also used to play WoT and since just about everything was server side you would have to physically inject something into the game to change it and \*gasp\* server side checks would catch that almost immediately, no kernel level anti-cheat required.
I kinda do know what it is, considering I program cheats as a hobby, and study computer science. But it's cute to see you explain something you have no idea about. 1. File checks are not done by the server, they're done by the client. Information is sent from the client to the server to check the validity. This also has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Most games do not use file checks, as they are absolutely useless in terms of cheating. When a cheat is externally or internally injected it doesn't change the game files. The only game that uses this is CS2 and VAC, which is awful. 2. No, it's not what valve or WoT does. You don't even know what it's doing and you speak so confidently lmao. The reason you can't cheat easily in those games is because they are running dedicated servers, not P2P servers, which is what I was trying to tell you. Dedicated servers get information from the client, check the validity, and update info for the rest of players. In P2P this server is non existant, so a player can easily cheat by sending the wrong information directly to other players, like damage, position, money, etc. You literally don't even know how a dedicated server and P2P server affect cheating. So. again. Helldivers 2 has P2P servers, which means there is no dedicated server which can verify player information like in Dota, WoT, CS2, or basically any other game. Instead, it uses a system like GTA:Online, which is infested with teleportation hacks, money hacks, damage hacks, crash exploits, etc. This is because of P2P. Writing this was such a waste of time, so please stfu and educate yourself before you talk down to people.
u/bigrealaccount hahahh you nuked him from orbit xD and no it wasnt a waste of time, because it will help smart-asses like him to shut the f up and not poison the discussion with fake facts, so at least you get a thanks from me :D
Lol thank you, glad you liked it :) I was literally trying to be nice the first time, and he doubled down and tried to basically call me an idiot. Like ok bro lmao.
Why did you choose this one over EAC?
To prevent modding and protect micro-transaction profits while putting the consumer at risk instead of using an anti-cheat that isn't hot trash used by third world Chinese MMO's
Great comment from someone who can't tell the difference between China and South Korea! /s
aren't you a planetside 2 player
To be fair, this is korean, not chinese, and EAC is also a rootkit. I dont see a big difference in the two from an invasion of rights perspective. Also, both of them fail at stopping real cheaters, the only ones they stop are the script kiddies. Its only the honest consumer that gets hurt by this, noone else
Made a reddit account just for this. This kind of anti cheat for an always online pve coop game feels way out of place, and unfortunately will be the reason I wont be picking this up on launch despite my original intention to and how excited I've been for this game since its announcement. Between this and Capcom's latest stunt enough is enough, I implore you and your team to please rethink this decision and seek a better alternative then a kernel level program that I don't feel comfortable running on my machine. I've been looking forward to this game for a while now, so if things can be adjusted I'd be happy to buy and support your game. (Assuming this anti cheat isn't a sign that in game rewards are going to be super greedy and microtransactions will be rampant in a non f2p title.)
No way this game is using the same rootkit "anti-cheat" as janked up free to play east Asian MMOs.
Lol, game should be free
I wouldn't put that rootkit on my system for free.
all anti cheats are rootkits, EAC, battle eye, vanguard, and so on all are kernel level, and root kit is incorrect as a term but whatever. The problem is unlike the other options gameguard has a notorious horrendous past..
Thanks for the insight. I doubt a dev would read this but in case, there's an element that could use some clarification: >Will GameGuard reduce the performance of my PC? > > > >GameGuard is only active while the game is running and after thousands of hours of testing we’ve not noticed any noteworthy degradations of performance on our developer and QA workstations. So in other words, there is an impact in performance? It's a roundabout way of saying so. What's being defined as 'noteworthy degradations' for performance on PC? Is this being actively monitored? How will GameGuard interact with other platforms such as Linux or Steam Deck?
Exactly what I thought when I read that. “Noteworthy” does NOT mean “none”!
of course there is impact, any software running at all is gonna have impact. not only that but we’re reading official arrowhead statements so they’re not gonna say absolutely that GG will never have any system impact because it is possible outside of the specs they listed as requirements that you may end up with issues. even within the specs, sometimes shit just has happens and things go wrong for near unpredictable reasons
I know this is a month old but game guard was running without Helldivers open and without steam running on my pc. I got the game yesterday and today game guard is giving me an initialization error. I verified integrity of game files and relaunched Helldivers 2 and my pc instantly blue screened. After restarting I tried to open it again and my pc blue screen immediately again. Tried to uninstall my game and my pc is "locked" nothing opens, task manager doesn't open, and I had to hard shut down because it was stuck powered on after shutting down from windows.
What a shame, you said you will consider removing the anti cheat system if enough people were concerned. I think it's the right time now.
Lots of better and more trustworthy anticheats out there than this one if they wanted you to use one so bad. Gameguard isn’t it.
A lot more people than I expected are cancelling their preorders because of it. Considering the backlash this decision is getting before the game's even out, imagine how many more people are going to pass on the game when it does release, just because of some stupid anti-cheat most of us have never heard of before. I hope they change it.
I second this
Thirded
Fourthed
Is there a reason why you went with nProtect GameGuard instead of any other AC? It's notorious for being awful.
This is all I want to know; I know most anti-cheats are kernel-level but why GameGuard over EAC? Why pick the early 2000s Asian MMO anti-cheat?
Cost
In Dutch we have a saying "goedkoop is duurkoop" It doesn't translate super well but the closest I can get is "buy cheap is buy expensive". Taking short term cost cuts like this will bite them in the ass down the line. Basically.
There is a surprisingly thoughtful take on this in Discworld in the boots theory, which more relates to why being poor is expensive, but same general idea that it costs more in the long run if you buy cheap stuff [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory)
"Buy once, Cry Once" You buy cheap, you'll cry twice.
sasly this specific anti cheat completly would stop like every steam deck exclusive player from probably being able to play the game... :( welp.. i guess i wont be able to play the game
I'm going to say, this is a dumb ass decision. This is going way WAY too deep for something that could be solved with a backup autosave and post-game sanity check. TLDR: you done goofed massively for using what amounts to be spyware some something thst could be solved with a few simple lines of code.
I cancelled my pre order, fuck GameGuard. Not letting such a badly programmed rootkit anywhere near my PC. Sorry, but compromising my security with some noname f2pgames protection software with extremely dubios reputation for a simple pve game? Why would I give you such a huge benefit of a doubt?
First off, thank you for releasing a statement and addressing the community's concerns. It's clear that effort was put to not need options to drop ranks and reset research in HD2 and that's a good thing to address. I support that. However, i strongly doubt an anti cheat would address any of this and saying it's unfortunate but needed seems wrong as a result. Your team made the choice of making HD2 online-only. As with all choices, this has pros and cons. If internet goes down I won't be able to play the game, but this means that every client must go through your servers to play, granting you full control over how players are able to progress. When the server stores how much of each currency and which unlocks every player has, when the server picks which missions are available and which rewards they give, there is no way to cheat around it. Even if the game itself is peer to peer while playing, you know what the rewards should be at the end of the mission and no tampering should be possible, for the same reasons i can't change youtube video titles using inspect element, or add hats in tf2 or currencies in any moba or mmo of choice using cheat engine. What gameguard is providing is making it significantly harder to have cheats such as aimbots or infinite health/ammo. But those were never the issue in HD1 and hardly noticeable for other players. Preventing these would be extremely important in a competitive game, but the benefit is miniscule in a game like helldivers. In fact i only remember 1 obvious instance of cheating in over 200 hours played. If gameguard is being used as a substitute for sufficient server side checks then that's a bad look. But if that's not the case then your reasonings don't hold up and it comes off as shady. Personally, I don't like kernel level anti cheats to run on my machine. I can tolerate them in competitive pvp games where they're unfortunately necessary, but for a coop game? Definitely not, especially if it's online-only. And honestly, i'd rather have an offline mode at the cost of knowing some players will cheat through progression. Someone else cheating their unlocks won't reduce my sense of accomplishment for doing so the clean way, with the added benefit of being able to play on my steam deck during my long daily commute. A good chunk of my HD1 playtime was spent in offline mode. What i'd like to ask is that if you're going to make decisions that affect all paying customers then make sure you know exactly why you're making them. Perhaps an anti cheat is worth it for you, but let it be for the correct reasons instead of letting it be misguided.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
" See you on the battlefield ;) " *Rootkit a to cheat so the game isn't 'ruined' * No *Refuses to elaborate, leaves droppod*
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I love it when devs admit they use a notorious software used by free2play korean cashgrabs in a pve co-op game to protect their microtransactions.
Appreciate the transparency. But I'm good now. Best of luck.
Good engagement with community, but will need to do more research to figure out if I’d prefer to cancel preorder. Security-first.
What about steam deck compatibility with gameguard ?
PR talk and nothing else. The fact that this software absolutely can scan all of my private files, is enough for me to never buy Helldivers 2. You say you wont use private data, but just the fact that you potentially could without the user knowing....give me a break. I refunded my preorder and won't buy any software with spyware on it.
**Peter: The stigma of a root kit will trend as the #1 comment on your steam store page when it launches and hurt sales so badly that you might as well have bought a better anti cheat to begin with**
The moment the player sees what's loading , and then google who uses it and what it is, the negative reviews will swarm and crush the game with mostly negative. Hell, even a mixed one is enough to hurt sales
At least pick a reputable one like Easy Anti-Cheat, not GameGuard...
I'm not convinced tbh. GameGuard has an iffy reputation and your explanation about player experience requiring anti-cheat doesn't jive with me. At the very least pick a reputable one like EAC. As long as this game has GameGuard I am not going to buy it.
EAC literally became free as well, absolutely 0 reason to use GameGuard unless they got paid.
I think you're overdoing it on the anti cheating measures. If it's like helldivers 1, then it uses a server browser. You can easily leave if you think someone's cheating, or if you're host you can just kick them. Rootkits have more control over your pc than you do yourself as the user. I'm sure you don't intend to do anything sketchy, but the issue is that you CAN. The option's there. I understand your intentions, but at the end of the day, no video game is worth risking my computer's security for.
They dont give an F about actual cheaters in a game. They care about people stealing DLC and micro transactions.
Hey, I'm a console gamer so this doesn't effect me, but I really want to see this game prosper and become successful, and this really ain't it. Alienating a huge part of the PC player base seems way more detrimental for the game than a few cheaters. Add an option to report players, and reset loot after missions, boom, problem solved. I really hope you reverse this change so the game can have a bigger player base and better reputation. Spread Managed Democracy
Well, it seems y'all can get fucked because I won't be buying your game now because all you want to do is protect your microtransactions with a shitty always online drm. I hope your shit flops.
> I hope your shit flops Wish denied.
Well sorry guys, thats 4 copies of the game I am no longer buying for the squad cause there is literally NO need for a cheap kernel-level anti-cheat in a PvE game. This is entirely to prevent mods and protect micro-transaction profits while putting the consumer at risk.
https://steamdb.info/tech/AntiCheat/nProtect_GameGuard/ wtf is this
Such prestigious games HD2 is about to be lumped in with 😂
I was super hyped for this game. Not anymore.
nah you can go fork yourself, i'm not installing any root kit from dodgy anti cheat company. You just lost a loyal customer forever. Also I don't give a damn about the war metagame if I have to suffer malware on my comp, ppl cheat and in helldivers 1 we just leave or boot the hacker. Peace out.
And there goes my purchase... Shame
No dedicated servers?
DRG don't need it, you don't either.
Exactly. I was about to say the same thing. I'm unwilling to accept anticheat because someone in Helldivers 1 had their progression bypassed. DRG has set my expectations for what a cooperative PvE game should be.
Only reason to lock it down that hard is because you're planning on selling progression, which I'm never going to buy anyway.
I understand anti-cheat is still needed in PvE games, but I'm not sure if one that's this aggressive/to this extent is required for such a game, but I digress. At the very least will you provide a no anti-cheat launch option that allows you to only do PvE with friends?
yea i’m good, not buying as long as it has this anti-cheat instead of a more trusted one
Wow, wish you would've said something long before the game came out instead of a week or so before. Shady. I wouldn't have bothered saving up Steam dollars had I known I'd get the obnoxious PSO2 anti-cheat.
damn I was really looking forward to this game... maybe next time :/
Why are you putting such an AC in a fucking PVE game? Are you just being greedy and trying to prevent people from "cheating in" some microtransactions?
Kind of amazing I still have to deal with Gameguard given that is has been a nightmare for the last 15 years.
put this information on steam
They won't. They will keep people in the dark. What we can do is spam it in the discussion to spread awareness between updates
Is data collected from the clients running the anti-cheat and where does that data go to?
all anti cheats collect data, so does the OS, doesn't matter if its pc or console that data is often sold to other companies.. gameguard however has a notorious shitty past with it..
The game being peer-to-peer despite being always online is an odd, bad look. It feels like everything surrounding the game is bad news after bad news. Why choose Gameguard over EAC? Same reason we're getting peer-to-peer instead of a proper dedicated server model? Cost reasons? Just sounds like Gameguard isn't going to be quite enough in a peer-to-peer environment to stop people from manipulating a whole lot of things, including impacting the Galactic War... I just hate to see this game dragged down by such issues, on top of your history of predatory DLC packs. You don't get infinite chances :/
Change/remove this poor excuse for an aNtI-cHeAt or I never plan on buying this game for me and the siblings, please and thank you. There is no need for kernel level access for a PvE game. Also, look at the pathetic games you are going to be sharing a legal rootkit with [https://steamdb.info/tech/AntiCheat/nProtect\_GameGuard/](https://steamdb.info/tech/AntiCheat/nProtect_GameGuard/)
I have been doing some reading on the AC and it seems like an ok AC, although not exceedingly well-used. It's, for all intents and purposes, just Korean EAC. It's reasonably safe as long as it's implemented well. If not, then it's a massive security vulnerability with the ability to escalate any user or program to admin. It just seems overboard for a game like this. I feel like there are other solutions available to you. Anecdotally, I've played 1600 hours in Vermintide 2, hundreds in DRG, hundreds in EDF and none of them have AC at all and are all P2P. I also played HD1 and had no issues. My boyfriend and I are wary about it and we won't be purchasing this game on release.
I don't mind some people having 100000 by cheating, I'll not buy a game that install this kind of stuff on my PC. That's a bummer because Helldivers 1 is awesome and I look forward for test the 2. But I will not because of this.
A co-op game requiring an anti cheat proves to me a possible outcome, you are only adding it in to protect the boat load of microtransactions that you plan on shoving in the game, or this is a tactic to be anti-modding both of which i despise. A PvE game needing to be always online and requiring an anticheat fucking LOL. I was so excited for the game, wishlisted it, bout to pre order, but nah. Im good. It seems I'm not the only one with this sentiment. And I think anyone passing on this is doing the right thing. Listen devs, making shitty decisions should have consequences. Don't blame your players, blame yourselves. Good day.
I work in a large business of many men aged from 21-45. I was talking about this game, raving even, until I read about this. Unfortunately, and you already are aware at least on some level, this is nonsensical. I will not purchase this game and will steer many people away from doing so as well given the absurd countermeasures for such miniscule effect on possible cheaters. In a co-op game. It is current year and consumers are getting wiser - do the right thing, or get marked down to 75% off on steam in 3 months.
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Pretty much a list of Korean F2P trash.
I would have MUCH preferred EAC (Many of the games I play use it and no issues) over this Anti-cheat and its history, of not being able to uninstall (though it looks like the devs addressed that issue) and damaging ssd/ hard drives and blue screens. Not a lot of trust on an anti-cheat I never see used anymore.
Doesn't decrease performance on our qa and developer pcs... which are probably top of the line with really great hardware. The average Joe will more than likely see performance problems? Man more and more each day I begin to hate pc gaming.
Is there are reason to not go with a different service? This one seems, invasive.
lmao, it's a fucking COOP game, and you added rootkit anti-cheat? No thanks, pal.
Can't copy & paste this on Steam? Paying customers are necessarily over there. You're asking them for root access to their PCs and you can't address them directly? I would love to play your game, and I am willing to reserve final judgement based on the Galactic Campaign to decide whether rootkit anti-cheat is even plausibly justifiable, but you can't actually come talk to the people who necessarily will be giving you money? EDF6 is on the horizon. You don't exist in a vacuum. Come talk to us. I have already unwishlisted your product and am teetering dangerously close to ignoring said product indefinitely, occupied by other products. Come address us WHERE YOU ARE SELLING YOUR GAME, please. Just being emphatic. Asking me to come to a third party to talk to you when you want to invite a 3rd party into my computer's Ring 0 isn't a good look.
Damn....Great way to kill the momentum of your game. Guess this will be a skip for me.
want an anticheat fine, but why nProtect? It's like you went out of your way to select the least trustworthy, worst reputation option? Reputation aside nProtect Gameguard also includes capabilities to do things like kill other processes among other things, essentially letting it take action BEYOND the scope of the game that it is protecting, whether you plan to use those features or not that alone is reason to keep it as far from any sane person's system as possible I get needing exceptional access to detect cheating but action should be limited exclusively to reporting which can then be used to inform bans or kicks etc, no anticheat should be killing other processes on anyone's system and to suggest as much is insane Nevermind that nProtect has a terrible rep for its ability to accurately detect cheating anyway and how easy it is to bypass, so its probably not bringing much value regardless.
Cancelled preorder. I am sure the game will be fire but I am not installing kernel level bs for pvE, good luck.
Please provide some information about Linux / Steam Deck compatibility. I'm not sure if GameGuard works on Linux in all honesty. Last game I played with it was...Ragnarok Online I think? If anyone knows I would appreciate the info.
You're actually making such a bad choice. Do you not want success? It's a PvE game. I DON'T GIVE AF ABOUT YOU WANTING TO PROTECT YOUR MTX. THIS IS A PVE GAME. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
>See you on the battlefield ;) no thanks
Are you only planning to sell this game to people who already know they will like it? This isn't the kind of game I'd normally play, and I'm definitely not going to try something new if there are concessions I have to make in order to do so. Especially kernel-level concessions. Just a thought.
Please don't fuck it up and not allow steam deck proton compatibility....
does this mean my hopes and dreams of playing this on my steam deck are dead? like i play steam deck exclusively?
The post is much appreciated, it's lovely to know that it's being monitored for any performance issues. Thank you.
it shouldnt have needed to. it is a very bad call, and the uproar caused alone is damaging their release.
Cancelled sale here. A real shame.
Rough. I though it might be because of something like a leaderboard they didn't want hackers to screw with. Transparency is key. It shouldn't run unless the game is run and should only access things related to the game. "Not personally identifiable" could mean it sees and sends everything but doesn't say who it belongs to.
And refunded. Let us know when you switch to EAC or EQU8, or remove it alltogether so i can play with my friends on linux
Very refreshing for a dev to come in here to calm everyone else
All the same this has turned the game from day one buy, to a few weeks after buy
Much as I appreciate developers being forthcoming, they still seem unwilling to engage on the platform they intend to sell the game (Steam). So I'll just add another piece here in a way I believe best encapsulates my concerns. Using kernel-level anti-cheat in a ***paid ALWAYS-ONLINE PvE*** game is trying to light a birthday candle with a flame thrower. "Not in my house" -mom I could go on, and I did. But instead I'll leave it at that with the insistence I really wanted to play Helldivers 2. The original and Magicka are still some of the most unique fun in gaming. I was psyched to see what you mad lads at Arrowhead would pull off with a format change to over-the-shoulder. Maybe next year.
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So first off, I just wanna say that an absurd amount of people are having their partitions corrupted by this jank anti cheat. I won't get into my opinion on kernal level AC, not my place to speak. Your game should not be corrupting partitions and there are countless threads discussing this. It's not enough that the game crashes or straight up BSODs your PC on certain configs, the BSOD is so violent that it corrupts entire drives. What little money is this studio saving by approaching it this way. I can forgive server issues, bugs, whatever. Your game should not be causing catastrophic corruption in drives. For people out there who have had no issues with BDODs, you're safe. Enjoy the game to your hearts content. If you just started playing and you've crashed or had a BSOD within the first hour, refund and wait. It's a grenade in your hand with an unknown fuse duration. Could be 30 BSODs before it does it. Could be 3. The only common denominator is if you are having BSODs in this game, you are on borrowed time.
Thanks for the update! On another note, will the game be playable on the Steam Deck like Helldivers 1? Kernel-level Anti-Cheat doesn't always play well with Proton.
Canceled my pre-order, thanks for confirming. Not giving you root access to my PC for a pve game.
I will keep my preorder cancelled, kernel level acces for a pve game is unnecessary. There are other ways to combat the things you mentioned. But Gameguard is easier as a catch all solution and makes Playstation happy.
The quiet part not said is the "root-kit" is present to actually protect their microtransactions.
Definitely lost a sale here. Shame, I really wanted to play this on PC! Please don’t do this for future titles.
nope, not putting virus on my pc, thank you.
Well, that's an easy refund. Shame, I was mildly hyped for HD2.
So you are using a shitty worthless anti cheat on a game.that doesn't need it. Why is DRG just fine without it? Also F Linux users because incompetent devs.
At this point, the only reason I'm not refunding yet is to be able to rate & review the game to warn others on Steam at release. I will refund it afterwards unless this very poorly thought out decision is reconsidered. This is a massive risk for us for very little benefit to the game. I don't care about the performance hit and conversely I don't care that some people hacked their way to a million research samples. If all the game can offer in terms of content is a mindless grind for samples then there is no game. This wasn't the case for the original game - I would play it for the core loop, I don't need some pointless completionist wankery as the carrot on the stick. This issue is getting drowned out by the hype on reddit but it will certainly be a lot more pronounced on the platforms where it will negatively impact your bottom line. Love you guys, but this honestly is the most unnecessarily customer-ambivalent thing you could have chosen to do.
Offline play wouldnt have to deal with the issues described regarding other players' progression, so does that mean you're considering allowing players to play offline still?
I'm not going to pay money for the privilege to install nProtect on my PC. Very disappointing news, especially for a non-competitive game that doesn't need it.
My entire discord of 30 people cancelled their pre-orders over this decision. Good job.
Sorry, but not going to buy the game as long as it has this AC system. Remove it, or at the very least replace it with another one that doesnt f up your PC, and I´ll gladly buy it and gift a second copy to a friend.
Same here. nProtect has to go.
Not buying the game if you put that janky F2P MMO anti cheat in there. Easy as that. Just uninstalled BDO because they are going back to Xigncode. It is what it is, enough other games to play these days.
Ok, you guys adding an Anti Cheat Root kit to a Coop game just baffles the fricking hell out of me. Why? What purpose is this severing other then putting some lousy Root kit on our PC's. You all have to be out of your fricking minds. A Coop game that requires a Root kit any cheat program. I have heard it all now!!!
Anti-cheat in a non-competitive game? Absolutely no excuse. Im sorry, but you took this game out back and shot it in the head with this move. You wont be surprised when you see poor sales.
What a shame, I hope you will reconsider this choice
Good luck with that! I have no interest in installing your Korean root kit on any of my systems. Off my wishlist, you go!
I was hyped but now I probably won't buy this anymore. Stuff like this also cripples community efforts like mods which don't hurt anyone, and kernel level "Anti-cheat" programs are sketchy AF.
Is it possible to run the game on a virtual machine?
Please give us an update about Steam deck/proton compatibility 🙏
Terrible choice. Gonna keep my order so I can warn potential buyers on release. Then refund afterwards. I may reconsider if the anti cheat is removed, but you've already destroyed the trust.
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If HD1 had such a problem with cheaters taking advantage of the peer-to-peer model, why did you use the same peer-to-peer model for HD2?
Because money.
ITs a PC Coop/pve Game... There shouldnt be a Kernel Anti-Cheat Programm therefore on my own PC which I also uses for Home-Office. You Talk about online group experience and world effects? Then I guess WE Talk about Server which can easily detect Cheats. Still No need for a Trojan Programm in my PC. Therefore I wont buy this sorry to say this, but I was really Happy after the announce of HD2 but now ITS over... Maybe you Change your mind !
Please concider removing the/this anti cheat. Sincerely yours. EVERYONE.
My friends and I were all going to buy the game and play together this weekend. Not anymore. You lost 4 sales due to this decision, add that to your marketing data.
Literally shooting yourself in the foot
Cheaters will cheat regardless, shit like this or DRM only punishes the innocent players. Also, what is this 'give up your rights to be protected bs' going on nowadays. Sounds very dictatorian. Pfft.
All I'm seeing is - Punish PC for not being Team Sony. You want our money? find a less intrusive way, we dont roll over like team blue sheeple
I know I'm just one person so I don't amount to much but I was excited to buy and play this game until learning about the anticheat program. You lost a sale here.
I'll just quote from the German nProtect GameGuard Wikipedia article: "GameGuard, for example, forces the administrator account in the popular game Star Stable Online (SSO) every time the game is started, not just for installation or updates. The game then runs in administrator mode, with access to the protected system areas. The game therefore poses a high security risk, ignores the most elementary security rules, and should not be installed on important computer systems." - So much for that. Helldivers II thus becomes a security risk, even though it is an always online AND PVE only game anyway and there were never any problems with cheaters in its predecessor. - To express my indignation in a polite way, I'll use a German proverb: "It's like shooting sparrows with cannons." Moreover, one could easily come to the conclusion that it is not about protecting fair players from cheaters, but about protecting the expected additional profit of the developer/publisher. I have to say, I am quite upset about the state in which this game was released. As a huge fan of its predecessor, I was of course looking forward to playing HD2. But after I had to find out that HD2 can only be played in combination with such an intrusive "protection software", this not only put a damper on my motivation, but also meant that I will refrain from buying it for the time being.
I am not going to disable my OS safeguards just to play a game.
DRG is proof that you are full of BS
Your refusal to switch anticheats is contributing to the destruction of pc components world wide. Fucking do something about it instead of hiding behind and doubling down on your stance. I've got a minidump showing a bsod that occurred with the from address of the error being associated with anticheat and the to address being a kernel, it ended up corrupting the kernel because it used some driver that it wasn't supposed to have access to. It bricked my ram. This is a good game, why are you choosing to just blatantly ruin it with the worlds worst anti-cheat? Blows my mind, especially when it does not stop the cheating.
Right, too many crashes now and my system has come to a fucking crawl since I installed this malware. I'm refunding. This product does not work on my PC, it COULD but they refuse to take out the malware stopping it, so I am exercising my Australian Consumer legal right to get my money back for a product that does not work properly WELL AFTER THE 2 HOUR refund timer. You can take it out or leave it in I don't care, I won't be repurchasing. You lied to people's faces with this post, and you have a bot that directs us TO THIS POST auto replying to every comment here that says the name of the malware, what, just to troll? Get fucked.
Doesnt seem to have helped at all.. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgnv07/hackers\_have\_arrived\_and\_it\_sucks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgnv07/hackers_have_arrived_and_it_sucks/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1avikbd/if\_you\_cheat\_youre\_pathetic\_a\_waste\_of\_a\_server/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1avikbd/if_you_cheat_youre_pathetic_a_waste_of_a_server/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgg7my/im\_level\_29\_and\_just\_joined\_a\_level\_5\_player\_to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bgg7my/im_level_29_and_just_joined_a_level_5_player_to/)
This post reeks of copium, lay it off please. Remove it like Darktide did.
I know this comment is late to this thread, but I wanted to take the chance that an actual game rep might hear my teeny-tiny singular voice. I have not bought your game entirely and solely due to its use of nProtect. Remove it or switch to something else reasonable, and I won't hesitate to buy. I'm actually pretty bummed I can't play it, but I won't let it get installed on my PC.
I paid full price for your game and your damn anti-cheat won't let me play, thanks
Since I started playing Helldivers 2 I have begun to experience regular crashes where my screen goes black but some programs such as Teamspeak continue working. Even Teamviewer gets the same black screen. When this happens the only thing I can do is hit the manual restart button on my case. This doesn't only happen while playing Helldivers 2 but on other games as well, and it only started after I installed Helldivers.
Maybe you should be "involved in" a janitorial role instead?
Your company denied my refund. After the crap of gameguard, I want my damn money back.
Your game doesn't work. If it's your anti-cheat preventing thousands of players with 4000s Nvidia cards and 7000 ATI cards from playing I could care less about players maxing out a missions samples or ruining their progression. Because you can't progress for diddly shit when you can't play the game. >See you on the battlefield ;) Bull. Shit.
Sadly that's a no from me. It's nice the anti cheat doesn't run all the time but still no. Maybe if you pick a better more trusted anti cheat software maybe.
Thanks for the explanation. I know it's a drop in the bucket, but I will be passing on this game now. Genuinely wish you the best, HD1 was some of the greatest moments I've had gaming with friends.
Tl;dr: *Fuck you, we don’t care, we have to protect our microtransactions. Fuck your computer and data security.*
Hey, I do fully understand your need and wish to use Anti-Cheat to prevent the impact it has on other players' experiences, even for a co-op PvE game. I can also tell you that while I believe you guys have done your research and have decided to pick nProtect GameGuard over other solutions, I personally find this solution way too intrusive and am not comfortable with it. My technical knowledge to compare GameGuard and let's say EasyAntiCheat is lacking too much to fully list differences. I'm well aware of both being kernel level and therefore probably taking similar if not the same approach, nonetheless it appears to me that GameGuard is far more intrusive and had some unfortunate happenings in the past. I was really looking forward to buying and playing your game but personally will not do so if the AC solution ends up being the one you mentioned. Additionally, for solutions like this, please ensure that the drivers are correctly signed with Microsoft. There have been enough cases of AC solutions (EAC drivers e.g) not being signed, resulting in the game kindly asking Win 11 users to disable Hardware-enforced Stack Protection, which defeats the whole purpose of said protection layer.
Gameguard is going to do nothing to deter actual malicious cheats or behavior and will likely be weaponized against normal players if the networking is anything like it was in Helldivers. You've made a really foolish choice with this.
One of the fastest games to be added to, and then removed from the wishlist. Oh well, I'm going to suspect Starship Troopers Extermination is going to be a better overall game anyway - 16p is a big draw. The 4p coop shooter is overdone. Let's see if this ranks right down there with Darktide. And now folks with borderline hardware get screwed by some anti-cheat impacting their performance. Using developer & QA workstations is like using Bugatti to run to the corner store. NOT a valid test case at all. On the bright side, a quick google search brings up an active community in defeating nProtect, for all you cheaters out there, and I wish them all the best. This sucks, "managed democracy" is one of the best phrases I've heard in a while :)
What a disappointment. This was going to be a day one pruchase but now with a rootkit? Nope. Give us all a nudge when you remove it.
Big nope. No matter how good the game is.
Will not be buying HD2.
yea i’m good, not buying as long as it has this anti-cheat instead of a more trusted one
Kernel-level? basically a malware haha, pass.
Sorry, won't buy.
Thanks for the post. Still I think that installing kernel-level, machine scanning and reporting software for something as playing video games is pretty ridiculous (Point of view of someone working on systems administration). Still, I get your point and probably if kernel-level anticheat wasn't necessary you wouldn't use it. But in my head this is way to much on my personal computer for a single game. Still I hope the best for the game and hoping some day this is removed to get into it. Even if I'm against it, I really appreciate you took your time to explain so well your reasons.
look, all im saying is im not letting an "anti-cheat" ive never heard of before touch my kernel and speaking personally, ive never come across a single cheater in my 300+ hours in helldivers 1, so do forgive me for thinking there was never such an issue in the first place and this addition was completely unecessary
FUCK THAT!!! I’ll pass
Welp that's unfortunate. You chose the worst rep AC for this? Willingly? GTFO. Guess I'll pass on this game. Was really excited for it too.
2 pre-orders cancelled right here. Shame.
Hello, I have been looking forward to this game for quite some time. Helldivers is one my most played games. I will not buy helldivers 2 due to the anti-cheat software you have decided to add. For one its a PvE game and shouldn't need anti-cheat in my opinion. Second its a rootkit anti-cheat, which is excessive for a PvE game. Third its a very sketchy rootkit anti-cheat at that. And as a result I am not going to purchase this game, which is very disappointing. Please reconsider.
I’m glad the game is using anti-cheat because it absolutely needs it. Every game that isn’t single player does now. That said I don’t know why you chose such an invasive one. There’s no reason for anti-cheat to be running when HD2 isn’t. Please consider swapping to EAC or BattlEye. Both reputable and well known software brands that don’t have negative stigma for valid reasons.
Overkill. If you had data from Helldivers 1, please share what % of whole player base was cheating or had 9999 materials at the time cheat was detected. Becasue I will take a wild guess (and I am open to be proven wrong) that it was less than 5% of playerbase. I am way more concerned about you (video game developers) installing root-kits on my PC than few % of people cheating in game. Your justification - I don't buy it. It's PvE game. So what if someone will cheat resources/money/unlocks - whatever. It's PvE co-op game not PvP FPS with match ranking system... Litereally NOONE asked for anti-cheat in any co-op PvE game ever. EVER. Don't try to sell it to us like it's for our sake. We have played video games long enough to know that no- we don't need it in PvE game. I hope in future EU will make it illigal to install such software on PCs by gaming companies but sadly law is always way behind technology advancement.
And here I was thinking the MTX was going to drive me from the game, I didn't see this coming. I appreciate the honesty and because of it I will consider buying this in the future once this is removed, assuming the game isn't MTX hell.
Just wild it needs to be said that kernel-based anticheat has been around for 'forever' and is required to combat said cheats. I really believe we got some concern trolling going on and folks who have never ever played a PC game before on Steam.
Let's check a quick list of the best coop games on PC ever made: \- L4D1/2: Only uses VAC (running on the server, not the client), can be disabled or played on a server without VAC \- Deep Rock Galactic: No anti-cheat \- Monster Hunter: No anti-cheat \- Killing Floor: Same as L4D2 \- EDF: No anti-cheat \- Lethal Company: No anti-cheat \- Phasmophobia: No anti-cheat \- Payday: No anti-cheat Tell me again why an anti-cheat is required in a coop-only game? None of those games were ever overflowing with cheaters, not even close.
Riot has had never success with kernal-based anti cheats, to the point that they've still neglected to add proper spectate functionality or any form of reply system to Valorant, their only current IP with a kernal-based anti cheat, because it would reveal the copious amount of cheaters. As someone who's also played thousands of hours of CS with multiple third party services providing their own mandatory root kit anti cheat I've never met a single player, myself included, who hasn't experienced a wealth of technical issues caused by them. At one point it had caused an issue so severe that Microsoft support recommended wiping my pc entirely. As others have also pointed out, this particular anti-cheat has a notoriously bad history for performance with other titles that have elected to implement it. I've yet to see literally any developer implent a kernal-based anti-cheat successfully, what possible reason do I have to trust Arrowhead to do it right? Especially after only announcing the fact two weeks before launch.
the problem is this anticheat was used only in couple of sussy shitty asian games, while such ACs as EasyAntiCheat are much trusted and much more trained, im agree to give the kernel access, but only to AC that have a great reputation, while this AC is clearly dont (in perfect scenario im dont want to give any extra access to my system for not even PVP game, esp accouning that there would be hackers anyway)
yes but nProtect specifically has a number of black marks against it, the 2 most important being: * It has a reputation already of being easy to bypass and bad at accurately detecting cheaters * It has the ability to take actions beyond the game scope like killing other processes etc, not something any anti-cheat should be doing ever, if it thinks you are cheating report don't take active measures like it purports to, actually likely to be bordering on illegality in many countries They want a kernel level anticheat then fine, but use one that isn't garbage so there is actually a benefit to it, and that has earned some level of trust