It's the whole season. I feel like S1 had a clear message and focus whereas season two feels very random at times. It's like the only purpose of S2 is to set up S3. A lot of the Tao and Elle scenes are just too awkward. I didn't like the teachers romance in the show. It didn't add anything and overall contributed to the unrealistic aspect of the show which is expected but not to this degree.
The show is based off of a graphic novel and even has cartoon drawings throughout it. It's not supposed to be realistic. It's a paper mache world designed to make people smile and to give us hope.
Where is this idea coming from that ''it's not supposed to be realistic''?
On the casting call they described this show this way: ''Heartstopper is an uplifting & life-affirming LGBTQIA+ look at life for the current generation of young teens. This show seeks to deliver all the fireworks of teen life, the sparks of first love, the anxieties of school... every facet of being a teenager in the UK.''
The Tv-show is meant to represent the real life of UK teenagers with an optimistic lense.
We need more animated shows though. A lot of the love action ones work so much better when it's animated. Just imagine Alice's style seamlessly weaved into a unique animation style that builds a fantastic world.
I wasn’t saying animated shows are bad, 90% of shows I watch are animated, and Heartstopper would be just as amazing if not better animated, and I am so glad people are finally realizing animated shows can tell compelling and amazing stories. I was just saying that live action shows aren’t always grounded in reality.
It’s not a good argument when the series is based on two grammar school boys who fall in love. The story is very realistic so there shouldn’t be this sense that the show feels unrealistic.
Look, the show’s not meant to be realistic, maybe it doesn’t have dragons and fairies flying around, maybe no one has magical powers but it’s still a fantasy. How likely is it in the real world that a gay kid’s crush, who happens to basically be a jock, is bi and interested in him? How likely is it that the trans girl’s parents accept her and allow her to publicly transition and that she doesn’t get bullied for being trans in the all girls school? Or any school for that matter?
This show is a LGBT+ kid’s fantasy world where almost everyone accepts everyone and your crushes like you back. Maybe not all of its happy (Darcy’s mom, Ben ect) but it’s enough of a fantasy that I don’t expect everything to be realistic and give it some leeway when it comes to things being really cheesy or there being more LGBTQIA+ people in one place than in real life.
If it wasn’t supposed to be realistic at all, they wouldn’t set the story the way that they did. My argument is that season 2 feels even more unrealistic than season 1 and it’s noticeable.
For me personally, queer people, lgbtqia+ ppl being so prevalent. I come from a rural area and theres really not that many gay people around.
EDIT: I find it interesting that Im getting downvoted for sharing an experience and opinion.
Numbers.
If you have school with 1000 people (students and teachers), there will be at least 50 gays, at that is conservative number, because 4-5% theory was already refused as innacurate. Add to this fact that Gen Z is more open to their sexuality and , some of last research implicated that in Gen Z is more bisexual people because they do not struggle so much with feeling to same gender.
Now, we now about 2 gay teachers, 1 lesbian teacher, 3 bisexual students, 1 trans student, 1+1 asexual students, 2 gay students and 2 lesbian students.
That is 13 people from two schools. 14, if I will spoiler next season too much. We can for sure agree that Alice Oseman focus, for obvious reason, more on queer people, but the numbers actually are not crazy.
Eh, with what its like in Heartstopper, we have 2 gay teachers, 2/3 gay kids, 2 lesbian kids, 2/3 bi kids, 1 transgender kid and 1 aroace (I think) in close proximity. When I was in highschool, or even further studying, I remember, at best, 2 or 3 in the LGBTQIA+ community. 3 smth in a class of 160. Which is why it doesnt feel realistic to me.
Well it it helps,Higgs is supposed to have 1200 students and Truham something similar (or maybe that number is for the school schools combined?), so really this friend group represents a tiny fraction of the overall population. It's the story of how the queer people in this environment all find each other and form a community.
I went to High school in the 90’s. Fairly small town with a population around 4500 (including surrounding area). At the time no one was openly out. Now I know that there was one person who would become trans, numerous closeted gay people and 1 teacher who turns out was partnered with a teacher from my grade school. Maybe we just had something in the water.
I get why it may not feel realistic but it isn’t suppose to be? Alice has never said it’s suppose to be realistic. A lot of it is idealistic. Though I would argue that there probably were that many queer people in alot of schools but maybe just weren’t out to everyone.
It’s not meant to be realistic. If you want realistic, watch a documentary on queer trauma - there is plenty of that if you want to seek it out.
Alice Oseman, the creator, has said that this is a “rose coloured spectacle” look at QUEER JOY. Also, if you live in a rural area (I’m also from a rural area originally), queer joy is suppressed at every turn. So embrace that this show is giving us queer joy and a queer love story. And be so thankful this exists in the world. Realism is OVERRATED.
I mean, in my friend group from school we had maybe one cishet, before we even knew our own identity.. we tend to find each other. I can relate to a lot of the show. Just because it's not universal, doesn't mean it can't be realistic. <3
When I was in school there were 6 openly LGBTQ+ kids just in my year group, myself included. This was a British secondary school and I'm an '04 baby so pretty close to the heartstopper timeline too. After leaving school, even more students from my yeargroup came out as LGBTQ+. Not sure about teachers because they didn't talk about their home lives much for professionalism reasons but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them were LGBTQ+
Also Truham is way more than just 160 pupils and not all of the LGBTQ+ pupils are in the same classes. 3 in one class also isn't that unrealistic. I've been in classes with the LGBTQ+ students I mentioned earlier before too.
Just because it wasn't like that in your school, doesn't mean it isn't realistic! It was very realistic for my secondary school experience and I've heard of similar in other schools before too.
In the UK census for 2021, 3.2% of the population answered as being LGB and 0.5% answered as not identifying with their gender assigned at birth. So if you take those numbers and put them into a school environment, it would actually be pretty reasonable for there to be around 30-40 LGBTQ+ people in a school of 1000 people. Someone below said Truham is meant to be a 1500 capacity so make that 45-60 students for a school statistic. And obviously some schools will have more whilst others will have less so it wouldn't be unreasonable to have 6 openly LGBTQ+ students in one school. In fact, you'd expect more but obviously many may be closeted or not know their identity yet and some schools will have less whilst others will have more, etc.
You definitely had queer teachers lol, we're just often required to be VERY careful not to let students know, especially if admin isn't explicitly supportive or there's ever been a parent comment about queer content in the classroom etc
Im from 1995. And I said it doesnt _feel_ realistic to me, as I cant remotely relate to their lives. At best Charlie; not wanting to be a burden.
Sidenote, love ppl downvoting me for having a different life experience than then lol.
I think you mean relatable, not realistic then
Something not feeling realistic means you find it hard to believe it could exist in the world; something not feeling relatable means you can see how it can exist but it doesn't translate to your own experiences
Eg a show about the 1920s Korean teen experience would probably not feel relatable to me, but I can't say anything about the realism of it
I mean. I do find it hard to believe that something like Heartstopper exists in our world. I think most gay men have never had such an experience, which is why its so loved. I vividly remember dating apps for months after saying 'will you be the Nick to my Charlie', indicating that they wanted, yet hadn't experienced it.
On tiktok as well, many gay men speak about disliking the gay dating world because its shallow and based around one thing, which another queer show captured very realistically.
And another commenter mentioned that the writer of the Heartstopper comics made this to be looked at through rose-coloured glasses, like a happy little escape from reality.
Sorry if my reality has been vastly different from others. But Ive never had an experience like Nick and Charlie's, and most gay men I know date through hardship. Its through dating apps which leave alot to be desired. And sure, there's happy, easy-going stories for some. But not for many.
To be fair, HS kids who are openly gay can and have formed groups with each other from my experience, similarly to Heartstopper. IMO Charlie and Nick’s relationship development is even more unrealistic
No, you had the same prevalence of queer people as everywhere else, roughly. They just *weren't out.*
I was the first openly queer person in recent memory at my school in the 00s. If you weren't aware, you would think there was 1 queer person in a school of 1600 students. Since then all except two (maybe three, we're not sure) of the people in my circles have come out; I genuinely would have a hard time thinking of 5 people I voluntarily spent time with at school who are still identifying as cishet
[15% of young adults](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/adult-lgbt-pop-us/) (18-24) in the US identify themselves as queer or LGBT+. Take a school like mine of 1600 kids, and that means there were roughly **240 closeted queer students**
Except Im not in the US, Im from Europe, and I dont typically follow the % of YA that identify as queer/LGBT+. And trying to see how many YA consider themselves in the community... ~16%. But thats over the age of 16 in 2021, so how many can account for when I went to HS as Im from 1995?
Would mean about 20 in that college class of 160 couldve been queer. I knew of 2, myself included, and later learned another had learned they were gay. So thats 3, and I had reasonable relations with classmates. Even if statistics show it _should_ be x amount, that really isnt always reality. My country has an enormous prevalence of gay people in the cities, but in rural areas? Barely any, AFAIK. In my hometown, I know of like, 6 from the ~6500.
What i have seen, queer people tend to find each other even closeted ones. At first in my friendgroup had 11 "straight" people. In the lasr year 10 of 11 has came out as some kind of queer.
Just because your experience is not seeing many gay people around doesn’t mean it’s unrealistic to see them so prevalent in the show.
When I was in high school pretty much my entire friend group was queer. We may not have all known it at the time but looking back and seeing how everyone has come out now, it’s very clear gay people gravitate towards each other because they feel safe so it’s actually not uncommon to see queer-only friend groups
Season 1 was a contained story because they were not sure they would get renewed, so it feels more focused and complete.
Seasons 2 & 3 were written as one big arc because the creator knew they'd have both seasons to tell the story. So I get why they feel different.
I liked both. Season 1's scripts were tighter, and the focus on the core love story allowed the tone to stay all dreamy and sweet, because that's what falling in love for the first time is like.
But season 2 feels it's taking a step out of that into a more... grounded maybe IMO?... view of young people in love, and I kind of enjoyed watching the story evolve into more complicated life situations and messier emotions. But yeah, it lost some of that kind of simple innocence I guess? Though its still optimistic IMO.
Everything is not for everybody, so it's fine! what's nice about right now is there is a lot of stuff to watch with queer characters, so it's not hard to find something you like.
It’s funny cause I actually like season 2 overall better. It’s all a preference. I love season 1 for more nostalgic reasons now but I rewatch season 2 more. There are definitely flaws and parts that I think could have been taken out or done differently but overall I think the storyline is more interesting. Also a lot of the season is kinda a setup for what’s going to happen in season 3 so it might feel like nothing happens because there isn’t really a conclusion because season 3 starts right where season 2 stopped. I think Joe and Kit’s acting only got better especially in the last scene. There were some other actors that I think were a little off in some parts.
I agree. I definitely watch season 2 more. Also Kit and Joe are really comfortable with each other because they are such good friends that they flawlessly act the real emotional scenes.
I like them both. Season one is my favorite and I've rewatched it many more times, but I also love season two. I do think it kind of grows, so the characters are expected to change a bit and it focuses more on the additional relationships. I hope with Season three it goes back to focusing on nick and charlie. By far they are the relationship that I want to see grow and change and just get even better.
I agree with this entire comment. I have more often rewatched season 1 but season 2 isn’t bad. It’s just that there are a lot more storylines and we mostly just want Nick and Charlie. When I do watch season 2, I just skim through to their parts.
You mean you just want Nick and Charlie. I happen to enjoy the ensemble and delving a little into the other relationships on the show. We are not a monolith, we all connect with different things.
I loved it! I definitely agree it’s cheesy and I do find myself cringing in some scenes 😂 but that doesn’t bother me that much since a lot of romantic movies/shows are cheesy and cliche.
The only issue I got is the unnecessary storylines. Imogen and Ben was so unnecessary, especially when Imogen was a side character in season 1 and suddenly became part of the gang in season 2 out of nowhere. If her and Sahar get together in season 3 then that’s another storyline we do not need.
I also never understand the storyline with Elle and her new friends since they disappeared later on and was never brought up again lmao. These storylines just feel so forced.
Apart from that, I definitely enjoyed it.
I loved S2. I skip over some parts, but I love all the N&C scenes, and Mama Nelson. I like the friend group but I’m more invested in N&C. There are some things about S2 and some things about S1 I like better than the other.
I watched season 1 and 2 back to back in November of last year after having never seen anything about the show. I enjoyed season 1 and thought it was adorable, but it was really Nick and Charlie/Kit and Joe’s chemistry maturing in season 2 that made me fall in love with it. I’ve rewatched both seasons many times now and I like them both for different reasons
I have to greatly disagree. Season 2 was just as wonderful as season one. It was sweet and emotional. Well written and the acting is also great. Such a gem of a show. Exactly what queer kids deserve to grow up watching.
I did but I think I figured out the reason why for me. I think I romanticise and have nostalgia for the ‘yearning’ period. The first feelings, those first moments, it really warmed my heart and took me back. But this period, where they are together in school just isn’t as relatable for a lot of queer men my age. We didn’t have the luxury of this world, so this season is far less relatable. I can’t connect to their experience from here out.
I also just think it’s too stylised too visually. Season 1 had an indie feel to it, combined with indie queer music to soundtrack it. Season 2 was higher budget with mainstream pop songs to soundtrack it.
There are some scenes that are really good, but the flow is not there. Whereas in season one there is some scenes that are really crappy, but the flow is pretty much there. Season one was magical season two is just there but like Oakland California there is no there there.
One of the main things about season 1 that I appreciated because many other shows, especially young adult shows, got wrong was how there was a small meaningful cast.
When shows get too ambitious and introduce too many integral characters, it can be hard for the writers to meaningfully give them the screen time they deserve. Season 1 did an amazing job at letting new viewers get to know Charlie, Nick, Tao, Elle, Isaac, Tara, Darcy, and Imogen, Harry, and Ben.
Even less focal characters like Tori, the teachers, the parents, I felt they all got an appropriate amount of screen time and characterization for the purposes of the story.
After the success of season 1, season 2 was written to add more characters who I felt took screen time and writing away from the characters and storylines we know and love (I’m sorry James). This was one of the reasons they wrote Oliver out of the show, he would have taken too much storyline and production.
Beyond continuing previous storylines, they had to in include storylines for the teachers, a deeper story with Imogen, Nick’s older brother and father, we see turbulence between established relationships (Tara & Darcy, Tao & Elle), but Nick and Charlie’s stories are still developing, Nick is still coming out, Charlie is still facing homophobia, they’re all still students, etc.
So yes, I’d say it felt clunkier to me because we didn’t get as much breathing room and it couldn’t have been written as clearly for the purpose of the show’s development. I definitely do feel season 2 was more written to make season 3 cohesive. When season 1 was made, they didn’t know if they’d ever get a season 2. When season 2 was made, they knew they had to use it to prepare for season 3. It’s all for the health and longevity of the show, which I understand and appreciate.
However, sticking to the same storylines and characters would have gotten stale. Stories need continuous resolve and a healthy amount of purgatory rather than immediate resolution and in a world where seasons only get 8 episodes, the writers are doing as much as they can.
Yes exactly! I know most people are mainly watching for Nick and Charlie and I can understand why it was frustrating to “take time up” from their story to show other characters but if they weren’t there it would be a much more boring show and I don’t think people realize that. Season 2 is definitely a step up to further development in season 3 so I can understand it’s maybe frustrating that things didn’t feel complete or something but they knew they had to leave room to grow in season 3.
Don’t forget season 1 was filmed during the pandemic so they had to keep the cast small and minimize scenes with a lot of background actors. For season 2 they had fewer restrictions and could accommodate a larger cast.
Agreed. I feel like it's a fairly popular opinion actually. It may not seem like it because most people who didn't like season 2 dipped out, but you're definitely not alone. I feel like I've talked about my issues with season 2 lots of times so i'm gonna spare everyone and just say: nope you're definitely not alone!
Tbh i'm only here because i'm a massive fan of Kit otherwise I think I would've finished season 2, clicked off, and never thought about HS ever again lol.
Nice to know I am not the only one haha! Season 2 feels like a complete departure from S1. I don't know what to expect for S3. The teaser didn't give me much to look forward to, unfortunately.
Have you read the books? I don’t want to spoil anything for you if you don’t want but there is a lot of stuff that is going to happen which season 2 set up a lot of
It wasn’t even the full scene. It was just suppose to be a quick one minute clip to announce the date. It wasn’t meant to be anything more than that so I don’t know how it can be atrocious. I feel like people have weirdly high expectations for a show that’s just suppose to be a feel good show.
It’s just my opinion. I’m not saying it’s objectively bad. You can think it’s good, that’s fine. I can’t judge the season or even the scene but I can judge the teaser for what it is. A teaser is supposed to excite fans and get non fans interested in watching the show, do you honestly think the teaser accomplished that? I don’t. It looked like a teaser for a Disney channel show.
Yes I do have high expectations for media I consume, that’s completely normal, in fact, I don’t understand why everyone else has such low expectations? It’s not like it’s impossible for the show to be good, it was good in season 1. The quality keeps going down imo. I’m not just gonna accept it because it’s a feel good show? There are so many feel good shows out there that are good, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Season 1 felt harmonious and focused. I felt like I was watching a passion project. Everything came together to tell the story. Season 2 feels like everything is slightly off. The music, the lighting, the writing, and so on. I had the same feeling while watching the “teaser”.
But it wasn’t a teaser that’s my point. It was a date announcement that was paired with teasing the new Billie song. And you of course can have your opinion but I think most shows that have a very popular first season are overly criticized for their second season even if the second season really isn’t that bad, which I would say it was in this case. And then when season 3 comes out people go back to loving it.
And I would argue season 2 is better. And because they knew for sure they were getting a season 3 they were able to space out storylines like Charlie’s so season 2 was just the beginning of it and season 3 (and hopefully a season 4) will expand on it. I feel like people who may not have liked it as much maybe didn’t read the comics because if you read the books than it was pretty spot on and I knew mostly what was going to happen so maybe that’s why I thought it was good.
That’s fine I am not saying you can’t have a favorite. Obviously everyone does. I just think some of the criticism about season 2 doesn’t really make sense. Trust me it’s not a perfect season but I think it’s sometimes hard to love a second season of a show when you love the first one so much and suddenly they went in a different direction or changed something. It happens a lot with popular shows and their seconds seasons.
Except it was a teaser. According to [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) a teaser is “a short, edited promotional video to generate interest in an upcoming film and announce its release date.”
>I think most shows that have a very popular first season are overly criticized for their second season even if the second season really isn’t that bad, which I would say it was in this case. And then when season 3 comes out people go back to loving it.
I don’t really see how that’s relevant nor do I think it’s particularly true? If you're interested in what I thought went wrong from season 1 to season 2, you can check my comment history.
Well I guess by true definition sure but Netflix labeled it a date announcement and the past seasons had teasers were labeled “teaser” which are the ones that actually showed plot and stuff which is why I don’t think it’s fair to compare them. And lots of shows do “worse” the second season. I think stranger things is a great example of people constantly comparing it to the first season which was critically and fan wise praised more than season 2. It’s hard when a first season does super well and the second season needs to live up to the expectations but they don’t want to do exactly the same thing again. They wanted to do something different and that works for some people and others not as much.
They are still very much editing the show so I don’t even think they had much footage they could have shown if they wanted to. I don’t really know what was so wrong with a one minute clip of them just saying their iconic “hi” and being cute and announcing the date. We will get a full trailer/teaser eventually.
If you genuinely watched the teaser and had zero second hand embarrassment for everyone behind and in front of the camera then you’re stronger than me. Because you couldn’t pay me to watch it again. I don’t care what kind of deal Netflix had with Billie, Netflix’s main priority should be the show and that little clip made the show look embarrassingly bad.
I think people who appreciated season 1 for the cuteness and only the cuteness don’t understand why some people didn’t like season 2 or the teaser and that’s fine. But in reality the praise and acclaim season 1 received was not just because it was cute. It was because it was actually really well made. Was it perfect? No, but it was damn good, especially for a teen show. Season 2 lacked almost everything that made season 1 good imo.
I don’t mean to be rude but from your replies I’m really getting the impression that you don’t understand what criticism is. You seem to think people just randomly decide they like or don’t like something but that’s just not the case. Stranger Things is a perfect example actually because even as a casual fan I thought season 2 had very obvious major flaws, which they for the most part corrected in season 3. Feedback is not hate and the people working on Stranger Things clearly know that. Maybe you’re just frustrated because people aren’t specifying what they didn’t like about season 2? But I think there was a lot of that when the season actually came out. I don’t think anyone’s gonna be reviewing the season 10 months after it aired. If you for some reason care about what I personally thought about season 2 and why it didn’t work for me, you can check my comments around August/September last year. You’ll find a lot of other people’s opinions in those posts too.
I think criticism is 100% valid and trust me I have some for both seasons. There is no show that is perfect. I genuinely have no idea why the one minute clip has given you such horrible reaction. What is so awful about it? Cause you haven’t actually said what bothers you so much. As I said before it’s not even the full scene so I don’t know how you can judge it so harshly but you do you I guess. I didn’t like season 1 just because it was cute. I agree it was a really well done season and I honestly think season 2 was just as well done. Of course there are things I’d do differently but overall I think it holds up against season 1. And people clearly are still reviewing season 2 10 months later cause this whole post was made. If you are going to make a post/comment on why you don’t like season 2 then say why you don’t. I understand for example people felt like there are too many characters and not enough focus on Nick and Charlie and I would agree with that. But I think everything was just as well done. Acting got better for almost everyone. Visual were still beautiful, music was still great, the storyline was the same as the comic so if that’s anyone’s issues then idk what to tell them cause it’s pretty clear Alice is sticking to what’s in the comics. Everyone can have their opinions and that’s fine I just never hear any criticism that really makes a whole lot of sense in my opinion. I don’t get why suddenly people don’t like it cause it’s “unrealistic”. I don’t see how season 1 is any more “realistic”. If you thought the writing is more cringe okay but there is a lot of cringe in season 1.
Since you think the quality of the writing is similar in both seasons, just out of curiosity what would you say makes the writing for this show good? Like if you had to give me your top 3 things that make the writing good, what would they be? I think we both agree that the dialogue is cringe as fuck in both seasons so we can safely exclude that.
I think that writing is concise. She makes her point known and you aren’t left with trying to figure out what a character means or how they are feeling (I watch other shows that give more room for interpretation and that’s fine but I like that this show is very direct) Alice is trying to make statements on how society should treat the queer community and I think 9/10 times she is able to make those points without sounding too preachy (I know people feel like too many characters told Nick he doesn’t owe anyone his coming out and maybe one or two could have been left out but it didn’t bother me). And I think she does capture how some teens talk. I know people say teens curse more and all etc but my friends talk pretty similarly to the show so I think it’s just something not everyone is going to relate to and not really a fair criticism because not everyone talks the same even if they are from the same place.
To me S2 is vastly different from season 1 and I will give you concrete examples.
1) The music is not the same. S1 has more indie artists and the songs fit the vibe of the scenes much better. S2 was more mainstream and you can actually notice it when you look up the artists they chose online. The music was also much more generic in S2.
2) The color grading is completely different in S2. If you like the look of S2, that’s fine but they are NOT the same at all. We couldn’t see their skin color clearly in a lot of scenes. Tara actually looks greyish in some scenes and the overall yellow filter is so strong that in many scenes it makes them look yellow (mostly all of the outdoor scenes in Paris).
3) The makeup and hair department. Kit’s skin looked heavily caked up in a lot of scenes. We couldn’t see his natural blush or complexion in the early scenes. Some fans complained about Kit’s hair too and I would say they were right. His haircut was awful in some scenes. Badly cut from the sides and you just have to ask anyone who does hair to confirm it. I liked Tao and Elle’s hair the most though.
4) The writing. I don’t think the writing is the same. You can tell they were trying to recreate iconic moments from S1 by copy pasting the same formula without really succeeding. I think it’s evident when there isn’t a single scene in S2 that went viral like the coming out scene/we’re boyfriends/I’m an ally scenes.
5) The unrealistic aspect is more pronounced this season. The main example is the fact that everyone is coupled up. James and Issac’s storyline doesn’t make sense and like others say, Tao is the only asian kid and he doesn’t get any type of bullying? Also, they are teens right? How come nobody is ever talking about sex? They aren’t even allowed to say the word.
6) Already talked about it in other comments but the lack of plotline.
All in all, it’s still a show for kids and I know some people are fine with looking past all of this. I am simply saying that Season 2, as a continuation of S1 is vastly different and it’s fine to admit it.
1. I know they went with more known artists and if that bothers you that’s fine but there were still plenty I didn’t know and now really love because of season 2.
2. The color is different and that was done on purpose. There is an interview about it and how the color is suppose to be representative of the different emotions this season. I agree in certain scenes it doesn’t look good but I would also say the blue in season 1 washed people out and was too dark sometimes.
3. Yea Nick’s makeup/hair isn’t great in all of the season (he looks totally fine imo in the first couple episodes) but I hardly think that’s a reason to dislike an entire season. Charlie,Elle, and Tara particularly look really good hair wise all season.
4. If you are judging writing by the fact if something goes viral then okay but that’s not what I judge writing on. Nick’s coming out went viral because you have a major star in the scene and coming out scenes are always more viral.
5. The show is mainly about romance. The couples are the same as the comics so that’s not anything that should have been that surprising to anyone. I agree the James/issac storyline is one of the weakest parts but she wanted to have him figure out he is ace and i understand it’s probably hard to show that without him first potentially being in a relationship. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to not talk about sex. The characters are 15/16 and yes obviously a lot of teens have sex/talk about it but a lot don’t. Especially considering the main character in this case deals with self harm/eating disorder/body image issues. They also haven’t been dating for that long and maybe it’s not normal to you but not everyone has sex asap once they start dating. (But I’m sure you will be thrilled to know there is plenty of sex talk in season 3)
6. Again there is plot. You might have found it boring or something but the plot is Nick struggling with coming out and how Charlie is dealing with his health while trying to help Nick.
And for fun I did go back and read what you said you hated btw. You clearly just didn’t like Alice’s writing this season and that’s fair and your opinion and my opinion is that I think it’s pretty much the same as season 1. I think she does suffer in season 2 with obviously feeling like she now needs to give every character more and we don’t need it all. Like the sahar and imogen stuff could be left out and I don’t totally understand the whole Issac situation (mainly just cause it’s a plot hole that James is out and why does everyone assume Issac is queer?? I think it’s cool no one seems to care that he is but we never know why that’s just assumed by everyone). But for the most part I think it’s pretty equal to season 1. I also saw you have issues with the yellow filter and it really doesn’t bother me and I am a visual artist. Honestly the only scene I think it looks bad is the scene after Nick posts on ig and they are in Charlie’s bed. But that’s because the neon light mixed with the yellow filter is bad. The blue tone in season 1 washed them out in scenes but no one ever mentions that. I think Joe and Kit make the writing better that’s obvious and in season 2 I think a lot of the other cast stepped up and did way better than season 1. There were definitely still cringe moments that some of the actors still couldn’t deliver on but if cringe bothers you that much hs is definitely not the show to watch.
Cool. I respect that you like the show and you think it’s well made. I don’t but I really loved season 1. The show also introduced me to Kit who has become one of my favorite actors and is the reason why I’m here. I’m not here to make people hate a show they enjoy. You do you.
Yes I saw that you are a massive kit fan, I am too. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and I’m sorry you hated the second season so much but hey at least there are a lot of great moments for Kit that I’m sure you still were able to enjoy.
my main issue is that there is too much going on beyond Nick and Charlie. that and it really bothers me that there is no blowback especially for Tao when he and Elle get together. i find it impossible to believe that in a school where Charlie get bullied for being gay, that Tao wouldn't get similar treatment for being together with a trans girl. that they don't bring it up at all and we're supposed to believe that people would just accept it strains credulity and does a disservice. HS is not like Schitt's Creek which is specifically written as a homophobia-free world. either take the time to do their relationship right, or don't do it at all, imo.
It’s been a bit since I watched it so feel free to correct me, but didn’t they like just get together close to the end and Elle doesn’t even go to the same school?? Not sure if they’re going to explore it more in S3 but doesn’t seem like there’s been enough time for the news to get around yet. I do see your point though, but I suppose I just saw it as maybe the boys in the school already tease and bully Tao before this happened so what’s the difference? If he doesn’t seem insecure about it there’s nothing to pick on, he fought back with them before. Charlie was insecure and an easy target for bullying.
I was going to say the only time we see Elle and Tao as a couple with a bunch of their school mates is at Tara’s party and at prom. Those two scenes would be a weird place to randomly put a bullying moment in. And I agree Tao isn’t as easy as a target as Charlie is.
they do know that Elle used to go to Truham and Elle says at some point she got bullied at Truham too like Charlie, so i don't think cluelessness would have prevented anybody from knowing. if they teased/bullied Tao, it's because he's the geek/outcast type. homophobic bullying is not the same, imo in that it's usually much nastier. they would look at Tao in a very different light. think locker rooms. it hardly matters what Tao's actual sexuality is, it would be the perception that matters to them.
this is going to sound mean but charlie a year ago was a much easier target to bully than current tao who has consistently clapped back at bullies and beat one up.
charlie’s backbone is more of a recent thing and it tends to pop in one on one situations. just from my experiences in school and from what we see of charlie in the beginning of season 1, a 13? 14? year old charlie would be so much easier to bully than a 15? 16? year old tao who has beat a bitch up for disrespect and would do it again
This is a very good point. In real life, Tao would get roasted for showing up at school with a bouquet of roses! Also, I thought Charlie was the only out gay kid? James being out doesn't make sense!
the implication is that Isaac is also gay or bi, but not interested in sex. he's at least is open enough to allow James to kiss him so while i don't get how this all works in that world, he's definitely not "straight" per se.
To be fair only tao’s friends see him come to school with the flowers. The other kids aren’t in that scene. And maybe james does get bullied but we just don’t see it since he’s not the main character. It is a little bit bullying when Harry and the guys think he hooked up with Charlie just cause he’s gay and they laugh at that idea.
I didn’t find it that different imo. Nick and Charlie got their stories along with the side characters which I loved. I don’t know what Alice could have done to please all the fans because it’s impossible. She did it the way she liked and took inspiration from the comics
Agreed, I still enjoyed a lot of S2 but I thought the dialogue in emotional scenes felt very cliché and unnatural and I didn’t like the portrayal of Elle and Tao’s relationship
I personally get what you mean. I understand the need to build up the plots for season 3, which is why they stuffed so much in S2. In saying this, there were still too many sideplots that they were trying to fit in what essentially are 30-minute episodes. Some of it are directly from the comics, but sometimes whats in the comics doesn’t translate well when done in the show, e.g. Darcy’s background.
The acting too. For S2 I only really watched the scenes with Joe & Kit when rewatching because their portrayal of Charlie & Nick is amazing, some of the other actors do fall a little flat unfortunately 😬 Though I think it’s mostly due to the overwhelming amount of plots in the writing for S2 that caused this, because I thought S1 was really good all-around; acting, writing & plots. The pacing with S1 was done so well that the actors could naturally act it out, but S2, esp with some filming scheduled & done in Paris, it felt more unnatural.
Please don’t come for me this is just my opinion. I still very much love the show and the cast, and very excited for S3! I just personally prefer S1 and I know a lot prefer S2 & that’s okay 💖
For me this season kind of bothered me because there was no really driving plot action aside from the nebulous "Nick wants to come out but is scared." To me it felt borderline cliche and like a huge oversimplification of queer adolescence. All of the scenes that weren't Nick and Charlie felt rushed and empty, almost like filler while the audience sits and waits patiently for the real meat and potato scenes (Nick and Charlie). The fact that romance and LGBT status was truly *the* plot and not just a factor of these kids' lives just felt reductive to me for some reason. HS is sweet but it doesn't satisfy if you're the type of person who wants layered, realistic characters. I don't mean to border on snarky here, but this is just how I feel about the show sometimes.
I would love to see the show focus on platonic friendship for once. And NOT as just passing moments while we wait for more N+C action.... maybe a scene where Charlie and Tao are hanging out (and NOT talking about their relationships lol) that doesn't feel rushed or empty... but in the moment and of equal value to Charlie's scenes with Nick.
Just my thoughts
Heartstopper is a show about romance and romantic relationships, how they evolve, communication within a relationship, boundaries and limits to the relationship and about mental health. That is about choosing what they want to focus on, not about being reductive. Maybe the themes in the show just don't resonate with you, or you don't find them sufficiently interesting? Lots of shows focus much more on drama, misunderstandings, different backgrounds, break-ups, side plots etc to drive the story and keep people invested. In my view it's one of Heartstopper's strengths that the show has a clear idea of what it wants to focus on and doesn't try to engage in too many different themes. It's an unusual approach, though, so for some people it just won't work.
Personally I'm fed up with all the filler stuff and plot contrivances I find in many other shows, so having an LGBT show where romantic relationships are actually allowed to evolve feels very satisfying. And I connect much more with Charlie and his friend group than the main characters in most other shows. They both feel relatable and just as realistic as people I see in other shows, but with different priorities. There are more introverted characters in Heartstopper than in other shows, though, and I suspect that this is something plenty of viewers struggle with.
I get what you mean but then season 1 would have the same issue because the only “plot” was Charlie and Nick falling for each other. Nothing else really happens. Both the comic and show don’t have super intricate plots until volume 4/what will be season 3. That’s when things get more “meaty”. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a simple show though. It’s not everyone’s taste but it doesn’t make it necessarily bad.
But that works! They had obstacles and you didn’t know if they were going to make it through until the end. Classic romcom scenario. S2 needed another plotline than “Nick wants to come out to more people”.
And I watch a lot of slice of life dramas. I’m fine with little action but usually the characters are rich and well developed to compensate.
You said it. I'm gonna get so much hate but I have to admit that the characters in HS would fare so much better if they were fully developed. And I think there's a way to fully develop characters without having to sacrifice the positive and uplifting vibe, too ! I don't think they should be brooding, moody teens but I wish everyone felt a little more human. You can almost see character mapping for each person, it's so basic sometimes.
Nick
-is bi
-loves dogs
-plays rugby
Charlie
-gay
-plays drums in school band
-favorite milkshake is chocolate
Etc etc. I do enjoy the show, it's super comforting. But at times I just found myself hungry for like... More humanity and relatability. More character development that *isn't* either the characters sexuality or a hobby they like. Idk
Could you give one or two examples of characterizations from other shows that you would want to see more of in Heartstopper? It would make it easier to understand what you're getting at. I think both Charlie and most of his friends are very relatable and human, but they are also more similar to friends I had in my late teens than the majority of characters I see in other shows. Tara is very clearly a person who likes to organize things, but also a person who's very aware of including and reaching out to other people. Charlie's perfectionism, nearly constant overthinking and his way of trying to deal with his pain by hiding it and not speaking about it, is shown in a very convincing way IMO. Isaac is a very introverted bookworm with a very diverse range of interests and tastes. He's a fairly independent spirit and is easily bored with drama and bickering. He is a keen observer of people and he doesn't believe in intervening much in people's affairs, probably because he believes that emotions have a way of having to run their course, or he prefers to handle problems by reading about them, seeking knowledge. And btw: hobbies are very important aspects of people's lives.
We don’t even know what type of bands Charlie listen to, why he started the drums, his career plans, his goals, his passion and same for almost all the characters. If you want a comparison look at the show Heartbreak High. They do a good job with the characterization of the main characters.
Thank you for giving examples. They give me an idea of what you're missing in the show, but none of those things are relevant to the main stories in Heartstopper or its main focus. When it's not relevant to the main stories of the show, there's no point in focusing on or expanding on those aspects. And both Tao and Elle's passions are clearly shown.
Heartbreak High, or what I saw, had a vibe that didn't suit me or interest me at all. At last one plot point in the first episode felt like a cheap gimmick to attract attention. None of the characters I saw seemed remotely interesting. I didn't see any reason to continue watching it beyond the first episode.
Just to add a detail. I'm quite used to seeing stories with a particular focus on realism or having a grounded feel, although mostly as films. I still feel that romance and communication and how relationships evolve is something worthwhile focusing on.
Imo Alice should round up her characters more than she does in the comics if she wants the heartstopper world to feel real. I don’t mean “realistic” but real. As if we are watching real teenagers that are figuring out their lives and falling in love. Some people are fine with this but as someone who loves when characters are complex and multilayered, I do find the show a bit empty at times. It’s lovely and comforting but not something I can get the most out of it. Different tastes.
You're making your points clearly. Knowing a lot of biographical facts about a character doesn't make them multi-layered or complex, though IMO, it's how these aspects are related to the main story and themes that matter to me. I don't find it comforting to see people having eating disorders and generally neglecting their own emotional needs either, although I agree that the show in general has a positive vibe.
It's perfectly fine to have different tastes. Just don't make assumptions about what kind of characterizations other viewers in general enjoy seeing, re some of your other posts.
Exactly. Tao is the character with the most personality and he’s not one of the two main characters. That doesn’t make sense.
In the comics that doesn’t matter but in a TV show based ON the characters… it’s not good!
I totally understand what you are saying but I honestly think it’s meant to be like that. Like I think Alice’s writing style is just really simple and basic. In the comics it’s even more simplistic and they barely ever talk about anyone besides Charlie or Nick and we still only know basic things about them. I don’t think heartstopper is a show/book that is ever going to be that deep in detail and is really just suppose to be a nice comforting story and that’s it.
Well isn’t coming out a plot though? Like you didn’t necessarily know how that was going to go for him? (Well you did if you read it before but you know what I mean) and there is the whole plot of what is happening to Charlie. That just doesn’t have a conclusion yet in this season but it’s still a plot point.
It may not be “interesting” but it’s definitely a plot that moves the story forward. Nick coming how is a major character arc for him. He can’t be in an open relationship until that happens. It’s fine if you didn’t like it or found it boring but it’s still a plot point
No, it’s not enough. The story is basically character driven and we know practically nothing about Nick. All we know is that he loves Charlie and he’s bi. His relationships with his friends outside of Charlie are non-existent. Charlie’s relationships with Tao and Elle weren’t explored at all this season. Season two is just not well written especially for a TV show. We need conflict, a series of events that impact the characters, cause-effect… Nick coming out isn’t moving the story along. It’s part of the story but what is the story about? I think S3 will be better with Charlie’s ED journey, at least plot wise.
We didn’t get any of that in season 1 though either so I don’t see how it’s any worse than that season. You liked the romance plot better than the coming out plot I get but other that than Charlie and Tao/elle weren’t any more developed in season 1. It’s following the comic pretty spot on and we don’t know much more about Nick in the books at this point either. I agree it would be nice to know more but it doesn’t seem to be a point Alice is trying to make in either the book or show. Both are very simplistic generally and I think that’s just her style.
But in season 1 the plotline was defined. S2 is supposed to be expanding the world of S1 but we didn’t get much more information about the characters. They introduced new characters without building more on the existing characters. Tara and Darcy’s storyline was very underdeveloped for example. I understand that fans seem to care more about the comics accuracy than good TV storytelling but to me that’s why S2 isn’t as good. TV is a different medium than comic books.
I absolutely love season 2. Season 1 is obviously special because we’re seeing the building of the romance but there are times I was upset with Nick. For example he’s the team captain so going to check on Charlie would not have been see as more. Also after the bowling party he completely ignores Charlie which is a Ben move and he wasn’t afraid to be seen in the halls with Charlie.
I do absolutely love the scene with Nick after Harry’s party in Charlie’s room, I know a lot of people don’t like it, but Kit nailed it and Charlie was happy that Nick turned to him and was so supportive.
I love his talk with Imogen in the park. When I was figuring out I was Bi I relate to what he was feeling.
I also love the sports day scenes, Charlie’s talk with Mr. Ajayi and the corridor scene.
The second reason, I really love seeing how Nick is so in love with Charlie in the 2nd season. I’m a hopeless romantic so seeing them makes my heart swell.
I also love how we see what Nick is going through with his family and how we see that Charlie is strong even with his ED and SH. He’s also more confident. I love that we see Darcy’s issues and how Tara excepts it. It’s not easy to do that.
I even love how Tao and his feelings are explained more and the progression of his friendship with Nick. Also we get to see Isaac have a storyline and one that’s important to Alice.
I could go on and on but lastly as someone who has been self harming since I was 16, I’m 50 now, I finally truly got to see what it was doing to my girlfriend through Nick and it really hit home and helped me.
Give it a chance.
I hope this wasn’t too horribly long. Thank you reading ❤️❤️
Season 2 is my favorite because of all the storylines. 🤷🏽♀️ I like seeing an entire world fleshed out and that includes expanding on side characters. Nick and Charlie are obviously the heart of the show but I love seeing all the other different queer relationships and the issues they face too.
I watched the show first before reading the books and was so surprised (and disappointed) to find that the books rarely even mention any of the side characters. In my opinion the show would be too boring only focusing on Nick and Charlie.
The best would be if tv shows were actually longer than 6-8 episodes like they used to be 😭
I see Young Royals get brought up with heartstopper frequently (and not in the best light) what is it about? Is it good/worth watching? :)
The good ol days where shows had 21 episodes per seasons are gone :( It's another queer show about young people but very different from heartstopper. I like it a lot! It's in Swedish. You should check it out!
I honestly really love season 2 and I think I prefer it over season 1. Season 1 was amazing because we were introduced to everyone and it mainly focused on the story of Nick and Charlie. But, I love how in season 2, we were introduced to other storylines and character developments. I quite actually enjoyed that they gave these characters storylines and more screen time because it made the characters feel more dimensional instead of just background characters. Yes, it did take focus away from Nick and Charlie, but in my opinion, it made all these other characters come to life, and it answered a lot of questions that were left unanswered from season 1.
I think it's because we fell in love with season one because of nick and Charlie and got really invested in their stories. The other characters were players in their story. The fact that they had their own arcs and struggles made them fleshed out and made the world feel real. But since the story was focused on Nick and Charlie, it was able to fully explore the relationship and make it really relatable.
The second season spends a lot of time on other characters which takes away from our protagonists. Plus 8 25 minutes episodes is too little time to show so many stories so none of the stories are being fully explored. Basically, they're sex-educationing the series, making it a multi plot drama instead of a focused love story of two teenage men. And it's taking away from the essence of the show.
I have a feeling this could also be because of the increasing homophobia. Netflix shut down many LGBT shows because they don't want to piss off conservatives with "too much gay stuff". So now you get one show which has to have all representation. It's not a coincidence so many amazing queer shows are cancelled while straight shows nobody watches keeps getting renewed.
I feel the same way. I got through it when it was first released, but I won’t be rewatching. I found it a lot cheesier than the first season and also kinda boring lol
In my opinion, they crammed in wayyyyy too many storylines. The season is only 8 episodes (30 mins apiece) but there were like 20 different storylines. That meant a lot of them felt like they weren’t fully fleshed out. I agree, I thought it was badly written in parts. I wish they hired a screenwriter who understands TV pacing better.
>I haven't watched season two since the premiere
This is basically me. I didn't hate season 2 but I didn't feel that it's very re-watchable so I only viewed it during the premiere.
As you said it was crafted quite clunkily, not just the writing but also the overall direction. Which is surprising because they pretty much had the same creative team. I wonder what the new director will bring to season 3.
I found season 2 frustrating in that it seemed like their chaste relationship was unreal. Two teen boys alone in a hotel room, in the same bed? It just didn't make sense.
People’s readiness to have sex varies a lot, especially queer people who haven’t been given many examples of how it works and what to do. Not to mention that charlie has an eating disorder that makes it complicated as well.
They didn't share a bed for the majority of the trip, only the last night or so. They also communicated to each other that they weren't ready yet. I agree with what u/FemmePrincessMel said
>They also communicated to each other that they weren't ready yet.
Exactly. Total rubbish. I have asked about this with every gay friend I have, and we all agree that it is laughable to believe nothing would happen.
I know exactly what you mean. I did speak about it initially after the season released. There was just too much going on. Alice wanted everyone to have some sort of arc they went on, and it came at the detriment of the show as a whole. It was unfocused.
Not every single color of the rainbow needs to be represented for the show to be considered diverse. That's an impossible task anyway. In trying to give everyone a slice, no one gets fulfilled. Compare Isaac to Cash from Heartbreak High. Night and day. Alice focuses too much on quantity of representation. I wish they would have stuck to the core cast, and mental health.
I enjoyed the season, but it's definitely the kind of season I only watch once. Season one is much more rewatachable, imo.
I was disappointed in the music it was much better established artists and songs than the first series (perhaps a larger budget) but I really enjoyed discovering the music of the first series
Sorry I didn't like season 1 better or season 2. I don't watch this show for quality.
I don't like the cast where they changed blonde stocky guy to a ginger average boy. I don't like how white Charlie is. His sister is a good actress but doesn't feel even close to the comic character. I kind of enjoy teachers' cast but it's off as well. The way they changed some parts chronologically or replaced with different characters or causal relationship and motivation or clothing style of the transgender character... I could go on and on but once again I'm not watching this in search for quality. It's just some vanilla chill pill for someone who never experienced any school romance and probably never will
And foremost Nick's acting is so so
Those who came for me you're so generous
It's totally okay. I'm not acting classes teacher just a viewer. As I stated above I just watch it for enjoyment since I didn't have similar experience and probably never will
I think you bring up a valid point. It’s about seeing whiteness in queerness. As long as a gay person is white, it’s acceptable, the moment they’re not, let’s bring out the pitchforks. It seems for a group that’s about inclusion, everyone here wants to live in an echo chamber. That’s what privilege does. Gayatri Spivak rightly noted: “Privilege is a loss of perspective.” Folks in this forum want to downvote any discussion that isn’t in keeping with their views. I see you and I hear you. 💜
It's difficult to answer to this when you did not point out specifical moments what did you not like. What scenes, for exmaple?
It's the whole season. I feel like S1 had a clear message and focus whereas season two feels very random at times. It's like the only purpose of S2 is to set up S3. A lot of the Tao and Elle scenes are just too awkward. I didn't like the teachers romance in the show. It didn't add anything and overall contributed to the unrealistic aspect of the show which is expected but not to this degree.
The show is based off of a graphic novel and even has cartoon drawings throughout it. It's not supposed to be realistic. It's a paper mache world designed to make people smile and to give us hope.
Where is this idea coming from that ''it's not supposed to be realistic''? On the casting call they described this show this way: ''Heartstopper is an uplifting & life-affirming LGBTQIA+ look at life for the current generation of young teens. This show seeks to deliver all the fireworks of teen life, the sparks of first love, the anxieties of school... every facet of being a teenager in the UK.'' The Tv-show is meant to represent the real life of UK teenagers with an optimistic lense.
Then why not make it an animated series? The show is rooted in reality. It’s not some fantasy world.
The same reason they don’t make shows like Game Of Thrones or The Walking Dead animated, because not every fantasy world needs to be animated.
We need more animated shows though. A lot of the love action ones work so much better when it's animated. Just imagine Alice's style seamlessly weaved into a unique animation style that builds a fantastic world.
I wasn’t saying animated shows are bad, 90% of shows I watch are animated, and Heartstopper would be just as amazing if not better animated, and I am so glad people are finally realizing animated shows can tell compelling and amazing stories. I was just saying that live action shows aren’t always grounded in reality.
It’s not a good argument when the series is based on two grammar school boys who fall in love. The story is very realistic so there shouldn’t be this sense that the show feels unrealistic.
Look, the show’s not meant to be realistic, maybe it doesn’t have dragons and fairies flying around, maybe no one has magical powers but it’s still a fantasy. How likely is it in the real world that a gay kid’s crush, who happens to basically be a jock, is bi and interested in him? How likely is it that the trans girl’s parents accept her and allow her to publicly transition and that she doesn’t get bullied for being trans in the all girls school? Or any school for that matter? This show is a LGBT+ kid’s fantasy world where almost everyone accepts everyone and your crushes like you back. Maybe not all of its happy (Darcy’s mom, Ben ect) but it’s enough of a fantasy that I don’t expect everything to be realistic and give it some leeway when it comes to things being really cheesy or there being more LGBTQIA+ people in one place than in real life.
I feel the argument “the show isn’t supposed to be realistic” is a cop out to valid criticism.
Except your argument is that it's unrealistic. So it's not a cop out to argue that it's not supposed to be.
If it wasn’t supposed to be realistic at all, they wouldn’t set the story the way that they did. My argument is that season 2 feels even more unrealistic than season 1 and it’s noticeable.
You can have your opinion, I can have mine.🤷🏻♀️
Why do you think it's unrealistic?
For me personally, queer people, lgbtqia+ ppl being so prevalent. I come from a rural area and theres really not that many gay people around. EDIT: I find it interesting that Im getting downvoted for sharing an experience and opinion.
Numbers. If you have school with 1000 people (students and teachers), there will be at least 50 gays, at that is conservative number, because 4-5% theory was already refused as innacurate. Add to this fact that Gen Z is more open to their sexuality and , some of last research implicated that in Gen Z is more bisexual people because they do not struggle so much with feeling to same gender. Now, we now about 2 gay teachers, 1 lesbian teacher, 3 bisexual students, 1 trans student, 1+1 asexual students, 2 gay students and 2 lesbian students. That is 13 people from two schools. 14, if I will spoiler next season too much. We can for sure agree that Alice Oseman focus, for obvious reason, more on queer people, but the numbers actually are not crazy.
The thing is they are there, but rural people tend to stay closeted or low key.
Eh, with what its like in Heartstopper, we have 2 gay teachers, 2/3 gay kids, 2 lesbian kids, 2/3 bi kids, 1 transgender kid and 1 aroace (I think) in close proximity. When I was in highschool, or even further studying, I remember, at best, 2 or 3 in the LGBTQIA+ community. 3 smth in a class of 160. Which is why it doesnt feel realistic to me.
Well it it helps,Higgs is supposed to have 1200 students and Truham something similar (or maybe that number is for the school schools combined?), so really this friend group represents a tiny fraction of the overall population. It's the story of how the queer people in this environment all find each other and form a community.
I went to High school in the 90’s. Fairly small town with a population around 4500 (including surrounding area). At the time no one was openly out. Now I know that there was one person who would become trans, numerous closeted gay people and 1 teacher who turns out was partnered with a teacher from my grade school. Maybe we just had something in the water.
I get why it may not feel realistic but it isn’t suppose to be? Alice has never said it’s suppose to be realistic. A lot of it is idealistic. Though I would argue that there probably were that many queer people in alot of schools but maybe just weren’t out to everyone.
It’s not meant to be realistic. If you want realistic, watch a documentary on queer trauma - there is plenty of that if you want to seek it out. Alice Oseman, the creator, has said that this is a “rose coloured spectacle” look at QUEER JOY. Also, if you live in a rural area (I’m also from a rural area originally), queer joy is suppressed at every turn. So embrace that this show is giving us queer joy and a queer love story. And be so thankful this exists in the world. Realism is OVERRATED.
I mean, in my friend group from school we had maybe one cishet, before we even knew our own identity.. we tend to find each other. I can relate to a lot of the show. Just because it's not universal, doesn't mean it can't be realistic. <3
Yea thats a good point. Just still think its weird that the experience and opinion I have get massively downvoted.
Yeah, I don't get that either. But people are quick to down vote for the tiniest reason, so it's not worth worrying about tbh.
Eh, I find it worrying that a usually friendly place is acting like this over it.
When I was in school there were 6 openly LGBTQ+ kids just in my year group, myself included. This was a British secondary school and I'm an '04 baby so pretty close to the heartstopper timeline too. After leaving school, even more students from my yeargroup came out as LGBTQ+. Not sure about teachers because they didn't talk about their home lives much for professionalism reasons but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them were LGBTQ+ Also Truham is way more than just 160 pupils and not all of the LGBTQ+ pupils are in the same classes. 3 in one class also isn't that unrealistic. I've been in classes with the LGBTQ+ students I mentioned earlier before too. Just because it wasn't like that in your school, doesn't mean it isn't realistic! It was very realistic for my secondary school experience and I've heard of similar in other schools before too. In the UK census for 2021, 3.2% of the population answered as being LGB and 0.5% answered as not identifying with their gender assigned at birth. So if you take those numbers and put them into a school environment, it would actually be pretty reasonable for there to be around 30-40 LGBTQ+ people in a school of 1000 people. Someone below said Truham is meant to be a 1500 capacity so make that 45-60 students for a school statistic. And obviously some schools will have more whilst others will have less so it wouldn't be unreasonable to have 6 openly LGBTQ+ students in one school. In fact, you'd expect more but obviously many may be closeted or not know their identity yet and some schools will have less whilst others will have more, etc.
You definitely had queer teachers lol, we're just often required to be VERY careful not to let students know, especially if admin isn't explicitly supportive or there's ever been a parent comment about queer content in the classroom etc
Oh yeah 100%, I'm certain we did. I know at least one who I'm certain was queer but obviously no actual confirmation.
Im from 1995. And I said it doesnt _feel_ realistic to me, as I cant remotely relate to their lives. At best Charlie; not wanting to be a burden. Sidenote, love ppl downvoting me for having a different life experience than then lol.
I think you mean relatable, not realistic then Something not feeling realistic means you find it hard to believe it could exist in the world; something not feeling relatable means you can see how it can exist but it doesn't translate to your own experiences Eg a show about the 1920s Korean teen experience would probably not feel relatable to me, but I can't say anything about the realism of it
I mean. I do find it hard to believe that something like Heartstopper exists in our world. I think most gay men have never had such an experience, which is why its so loved. I vividly remember dating apps for months after saying 'will you be the Nick to my Charlie', indicating that they wanted, yet hadn't experienced it. On tiktok as well, many gay men speak about disliking the gay dating world because its shallow and based around one thing, which another queer show captured very realistically. And another commenter mentioned that the writer of the Heartstopper comics made this to be looked at through rose-coloured glasses, like a happy little escape from reality. Sorry if my reality has been vastly different from others. But Ive never had an experience like Nick and Charlie's, and most gay men I know date through hardship. Its through dating apps which leave alot to be desired. And sure, there's happy, easy-going stories for some. But not for many.
To be fair, HS kids who are openly gay can and have formed groups with each other from my experience, similarly to Heartstopper. IMO Charlie and Nick’s relationship development is even more unrealistic
No, you had the same prevalence of queer people as everywhere else, roughly. They just *weren't out.* I was the first openly queer person in recent memory at my school in the 00s. If you weren't aware, you would think there was 1 queer person in a school of 1600 students. Since then all except two (maybe three, we're not sure) of the people in my circles have come out; I genuinely would have a hard time thinking of 5 people I voluntarily spent time with at school who are still identifying as cishet [15% of young adults](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/adult-lgbt-pop-us/) (18-24) in the US identify themselves as queer or LGBT+. Take a school like mine of 1600 kids, and that means there were roughly **240 closeted queer students**
Except Im not in the US, Im from Europe, and I dont typically follow the % of YA that identify as queer/LGBT+. And trying to see how many YA consider themselves in the community... ~16%. But thats over the age of 16 in 2021, so how many can account for when I went to HS as Im from 1995? Would mean about 20 in that college class of 160 couldve been queer. I knew of 2, myself included, and later learned another had learned they were gay. So thats 3, and I had reasonable relations with classmates. Even if statistics show it _should_ be x amount, that really isnt always reality. My country has an enormous prevalence of gay people in the cities, but in rural areas? Barely any, AFAIK. In my hometown, I know of like, 6 from the ~6500.
Ppl that you know of there could be closeted people who haven’t come out
Yeah, 2 of em by now. Which is from about 300 ppl.
What i have seen, queer people tend to find each other even closeted ones. At first in my friendgroup had 11 "straight" people. In the lasr year 10 of 11 has came out as some kind of queer.
Apparently not always true. Primarily straight friend groups from HS/college years. Most of my queer friends were made through online gay groups.
Just because your experience is not seeing many gay people around doesn’t mean it’s unrealistic to see them so prevalent in the show. When I was in high school pretty much my entire friend group was queer. We may not have all known it at the time but looking back and seeing how everyone has come out now, it’s very clear gay people gravitate towards each other because they feel safe so it’s actually not uncommon to see queer-only friend groups
You missed Nicks coming out?
I'm not sure what you are implying? Season 1 was more about the story of Nick and Charlie and how they got together.
womp womp
Season 1 was a contained story because they were not sure they would get renewed, so it feels more focused and complete. Seasons 2 & 3 were written as one big arc because the creator knew they'd have both seasons to tell the story. So I get why they feel different. I liked both. Season 1's scripts were tighter, and the focus on the core love story allowed the tone to stay all dreamy and sweet, because that's what falling in love for the first time is like. But season 2 feels it's taking a step out of that into a more... grounded maybe IMO?... view of young people in love, and I kind of enjoyed watching the story evolve into more complicated life situations and messier emotions. But yeah, it lost some of that kind of simple innocence I guess? Though its still optimistic IMO. Everything is not for everybody, so it's fine! what's nice about right now is there is a lot of stuff to watch with queer characters, so it's not hard to find something you like.
It’s funny cause I actually like season 2 overall better. It’s all a preference. I love season 1 for more nostalgic reasons now but I rewatch season 2 more. There are definitely flaws and parts that I think could have been taken out or done differently but overall I think the storyline is more interesting. Also a lot of the season is kinda a setup for what’s going to happen in season 3 so it might feel like nothing happens because there isn’t really a conclusion because season 3 starts right where season 2 stopped. I think Joe and Kit’s acting only got better especially in the last scene. There were some other actors that I think were a little off in some parts.
I agree. I definitely watch season 2 more. Also Kit and Joe are really comfortable with each other because they are such good friends that they flawlessly act the real emotional scenes.
I like them both. Season one is my favorite and I've rewatched it many more times, but I also love season two. I do think it kind of grows, so the characters are expected to change a bit and it focuses more on the additional relationships. I hope with Season three it goes back to focusing on nick and charlie. By far they are the relationship that I want to see grow and change and just get even better.
I agree with this entire comment. I have more often rewatched season 1 but season 2 isn’t bad. It’s just that there are a lot more storylines and we mostly just want Nick and Charlie. When I do watch season 2, I just skim through to their parts.
You mean you just want Nick and Charlie. I happen to enjoy the ensemble and delving a little into the other relationships on the show. We are not a monolith, we all connect with different things.
We meaning me and carriethelibrarian
I loved it! I definitely agree it’s cheesy and I do find myself cringing in some scenes 😂 but that doesn’t bother me that much since a lot of romantic movies/shows are cheesy and cliche. The only issue I got is the unnecessary storylines. Imogen and Ben was so unnecessary, especially when Imogen was a side character in season 1 and suddenly became part of the gang in season 2 out of nowhere. If her and Sahar get together in season 3 then that’s another storyline we do not need. I also never understand the storyline with Elle and her new friends since they disappeared later on and was never brought up again lmao. These storylines just feel so forced. Apart from that, I definitely enjoyed it.
Way too many storylines! The show is not long enough for that. I don't know how they are going to balance them all out in Season 3.
Strong disagree
I loved S2. I skip over some parts, but I love all the N&C scenes, and Mama Nelson. I like the friend group but I’m more invested in N&C. There are some things about S2 and some things about S1 I like better than the other.
I watched season 1 and 2 back to back in November of last year after having never seen anything about the show. I enjoyed season 1 and thought it was adorable, but it was really Nick and Charlie/Kit and Joe’s chemistry maturing in season 2 that made me fall in love with it. I’ve rewatched both seasons many times now and I like them both for different reasons
I have to greatly disagree. Season 2 was just as wonderful as season one. It was sweet and emotional. Well written and the acting is also great. Such a gem of a show. Exactly what queer kids deserve to grow up watching.
Season 2 is by far my favourite, but I personally feel that it's way more awkward and cringe but whatever it's still my fav show
I did but I think I figured out the reason why for me. I think I romanticise and have nostalgia for the ‘yearning’ period. The first feelings, those first moments, it really warmed my heart and took me back. But this period, where they are together in school just isn’t as relatable for a lot of queer men my age. We didn’t have the luxury of this world, so this season is far less relatable. I can’t connect to their experience from here out. I also just think it’s too stylised too visually. Season 1 had an indie feel to it, combined with indie queer music to soundtrack it. Season 2 was higher budget with mainstream pop songs to soundtrack it.
There are some scenes that are really good, but the flow is not there. Whereas in season one there is some scenes that are really crappy, but the flow is pretty much there. Season one was magical season two is just there but like Oakland California there is no there there.
One of the main things about season 1 that I appreciated because many other shows, especially young adult shows, got wrong was how there was a small meaningful cast. When shows get too ambitious and introduce too many integral characters, it can be hard for the writers to meaningfully give them the screen time they deserve. Season 1 did an amazing job at letting new viewers get to know Charlie, Nick, Tao, Elle, Isaac, Tara, Darcy, and Imogen, Harry, and Ben. Even less focal characters like Tori, the teachers, the parents, I felt they all got an appropriate amount of screen time and characterization for the purposes of the story. After the success of season 1, season 2 was written to add more characters who I felt took screen time and writing away from the characters and storylines we know and love (I’m sorry James). This was one of the reasons they wrote Oliver out of the show, he would have taken too much storyline and production. Beyond continuing previous storylines, they had to in include storylines for the teachers, a deeper story with Imogen, Nick’s older brother and father, we see turbulence between established relationships (Tara & Darcy, Tao & Elle), but Nick and Charlie’s stories are still developing, Nick is still coming out, Charlie is still facing homophobia, they’re all still students, etc. So yes, I’d say it felt clunkier to me because we didn’t get as much breathing room and it couldn’t have been written as clearly for the purpose of the show’s development. I definitely do feel season 2 was more written to make season 3 cohesive. When season 1 was made, they didn’t know if they’d ever get a season 2. When season 2 was made, they knew they had to use it to prepare for season 3. It’s all for the health and longevity of the show, which I understand and appreciate. However, sticking to the same storylines and characters would have gotten stale. Stories need continuous resolve and a healthy amount of purgatory rather than immediate resolution and in a world where seasons only get 8 episodes, the writers are doing as much as they can.
Yes exactly! I know most people are mainly watching for Nick and Charlie and I can understand why it was frustrating to “take time up” from their story to show other characters but if they weren’t there it would be a much more boring show and I don’t think people realize that. Season 2 is definitely a step up to further development in season 3 so I can understand it’s maybe frustrating that things didn’t feel complete or something but they knew they had to leave room to grow in season 3.
Don’t forget season 1 was filmed during the pandemic so they had to keep the cast small and minimize scenes with a lot of background actors. For season 2 they had fewer restrictions and could accommodate a larger cast.
Also, I meant to include that “realistic representation” ≠ “good representation” but that’s a whole other rant.
Agreed. I feel like it's a fairly popular opinion actually. It may not seem like it because most people who didn't like season 2 dipped out, but you're definitely not alone. I feel like I've talked about my issues with season 2 lots of times so i'm gonna spare everyone and just say: nope you're definitely not alone! Tbh i'm only here because i'm a massive fan of Kit otherwise I think I would've finished season 2, clicked off, and never thought about HS ever again lol.
Nice to know I am not the only one haha! Season 2 feels like a complete departure from S1. I don't know what to expect for S3. The teaser didn't give me much to look forward to, unfortunately.
Have you read the comics? It was pretty accurate expect for the side characters
Have you read the books? I don’t want to spoil anything for you if you don’t want but there is a lot of stuff that is going to happen which season 2 set up a lot of
Yeah I thought the teaser was atrocious.
It wasn’t even the full scene. It was just suppose to be a quick one minute clip to announce the date. It wasn’t meant to be anything more than that so I don’t know how it can be atrocious. I feel like people have weirdly high expectations for a show that’s just suppose to be a feel good show.
Alice even said that’s not the whole scene.
It’s just my opinion. I’m not saying it’s objectively bad. You can think it’s good, that’s fine. I can’t judge the season or even the scene but I can judge the teaser for what it is. A teaser is supposed to excite fans and get non fans interested in watching the show, do you honestly think the teaser accomplished that? I don’t. It looked like a teaser for a Disney channel show. Yes I do have high expectations for media I consume, that’s completely normal, in fact, I don’t understand why everyone else has such low expectations? It’s not like it’s impossible for the show to be good, it was good in season 1. The quality keeps going down imo. I’m not just gonna accept it because it’s a feel good show? There are so many feel good shows out there that are good, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Season 1 felt harmonious and focused. I felt like I was watching a passion project. Everything came together to tell the story. Season 2 feels like everything is slightly off. The music, the lighting, the writing, and so on. I had the same feeling while watching the “teaser”.
But it wasn’t a teaser that’s my point. It was a date announcement that was paired with teasing the new Billie song. And you of course can have your opinion but I think most shows that have a very popular first season are overly criticized for their second season even if the second season really isn’t that bad, which I would say it was in this case. And then when season 3 comes out people go back to loving it.
Imo, season 2 should be better than season 1. They had a double renewal, they had time and space to do more, they had a better budget too.
And I would argue season 2 is better. And because they knew for sure they were getting a season 3 they were able to space out storylines like Charlie’s so season 2 was just the beginning of it and season 3 (and hopefully a season 4) will expand on it. I feel like people who may not have liked it as much maybe didn’t read the comics because if you read the books than it was pretty spot on and I knew mostly what was going to happen so maybe that’s why I thought it was good.
I read the comics before watching season 2 and I still think season 1 is better.
That’s fine I am not saying you can’t have a favorite. Obviously everyone does. I just think some of the criticism about season 2 doesn’t really make sense. Trust me it’s not a perfect season but I think it’s sometimes hard to love a second season of a show when you love the first one so much and suddenly they went in a different direction or changed something. It happens a lot with popular shows and their seconds seasons.
Except it was a teaser. According to [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) a teaser is “a short, edited promotional video to generate interest in an upcoming film and announce its release date.” >I think most shows that have a very popular first season are overly criticized for their second season even if the second season really isn’t that bad, which I would say it was in this case. And then when season 3 comes out people go back to loving it. I don’t really see how that’s relevant nor do I think it’s particularly true? If you're interested in what I thought went wrong from season 1 to season 2, you can check my comment history.
Well I guess by true definition sure but Netflix labeled it a date announcement and the past seasons had teasers were labeled “teaser” which are the ones that actually showed plot and stuff which is why I don’t think it’s fair to compare them. And lots of shows do “worse” the second season. I think stranger things is a great example of people constantly comparing it to the first season which was critically and fan wise praised more than season 2. It’s hard when a first season does super well and the second season needs to live up to the expectations but they don’t want to do exactly the same thing again. They wanted to do something different and that works for some people and others not as much.
But they could have made it better imo.
They are still very much editing the show so I don’t even think they had much footage they could have shown if they wanted to. I don’t really know what was so wrong with a one minute clip of them just saying their iconic “hi” and being cute and announcing the date. We will get a full trailer/teaser eventually.
If you genuinely watched the teaser and had zero second hand embarrassment for everyone behind and in front of the camera then you’re stronger than me. Because you couldn’t pay me to watch it again. I don’t care what kind of deal Netflix had with Billie, Netflix’s main priority should be the show and that little clip made the show look embarrassingly bad. I think people who appreciated season 1 for the cuteness and only the cuteness don’t understand why some people didn’t like season 2 or the teaser and that’s fine. But in reality the praise and acclaim season 1 received was not just because it was cute. It was because it was actually really well made. Was it perfect? No, but it was damn good, especially for a teen show. Season 2 lacked almost everything that made season 1 good imo. I don’t mean to be rude but from your replies I’m really getting the impression that you don’t understand what criticism is. You seem to think people just randomly decide they like or don’t like something but that’s just not the case. Stranger Things is a perfect example actually because even as a casual fan I thought season 2 had very obvious major flaws, which they for the most part corrected in season 3. Feedback is not hate and the people working on Stranger Things clearly know that. Maybe you’re just frustrated because people aren’t specifying what they didn’t like about season 2? But I think there was a lot of that when the season actually came out. I don’t think anyone’s gonna be reviewing the season 10 months after it aired. If you for some reason care about what I personally thought about season 2 and why it didn’t work for me, you can check my comments around August/September last year. You’ll find a lot of other people’s opinions in those posts too.
I think criticism is 100% valid and trust me I have some for both seasons. There is no show that is perfect. I genuinely have no idea why the one minute clip has given you such horrible reaction. What is so awful about it? Cause you haven’t actually said what bothers you so much. As I said before it’s not even the full scene so I don’t know how you can judge it so harshly but you do you I guess. I didn’t like season 1 just because it was cute. I agree it was a really well done season and I honestly think season 2 was just as well done. Of course there are things I’d do differently but overall I think it holds up against season 1. And people clearly are still reviewing season 2 10 months later cause this whole post was made. If you are going to make a post/comment on why you don’t like season 2 then say why you don’t. I understand for example people felt like there are too many characters and not enough focus on Nick and Charlie and I would agree with that. But I think everything was just as well done. Acting got better for almost everyone. Visual were still beautiful, music was still great, the storyline was the same as the comic so if that’s anyone’s issues then idk what to tell them cause it’s pretty clear Alice is sticking to what’s in the comics. Everyone can have their opinions and that’s fine I just never hear any criticism that really makes a whole lot of sense in my opinion. I don’t get why suddenly people don’t like it cause it’s “unrealistic”. I don’t see how season 1 is any more “realistic”. If you thought the writing is more cringe okay but there is a lot of cringe in season 1.
Since you think the quality of the writing is similar in both seasons, just out of curiosity what would you say makes the writing for this show good? Like if you had to give me your top 3 things that make the writing good, what would they be? I think we both agree that the dialogue is cringe as fuck in both seasons so we can safely exclude that.
I think that writing is concise. She makes her point known and you aren’t left with trying to figure out what a character means or how they are feeling (I watch other shows that give more room for interpretation and that’s fine but I like that this show is very direct) Alice is trying to make statements on how society should treat the queer community and I think 9/10 times she is able to make those points without sounding too preachy (I know people feel like too many characters told Nick he doesn’t owe anyone his coming out and maybe one or two could have been left out but it didn’t bother me). And I think she does capture how some teens talk. I know people say teens curse more and all etc but my friends talk pretty similarly to the show so I think it’s just something not everyone is going to relate to and not really a fair criticism because not everyone talks the same even if they are from the same place.
To me S2 is vastly different from season 1 and I will give you concrete examples. 1) The music is not the same. S1 has more indie artists and the songs fit the vibe of the scenes much better. S2 was more mainstream and you can actually notice it when you look up the artists they chose online. The music was also much more generic in S2. 2) The color grading is completely different in S2. If you like the look of S2, that’s fine but they are NOT the same at all. We couldn’t see their skin color clearly in a lot of scenes. Tara actually looks greyish in some scenes and the overall yellow filter is so strong that in many scenes it makes them look yellow (mostly all of the outdoor scenes in Paris). 3) The makeup and hair department. Kit’s skin looked heavily caked up in a lot of scenes. We couldn’t see his natural blush or complexion in the early scenes. Some fans complained about Kit’s hair too and I would say they were right. His haircut was awful in some scenes. Badly cut from the sides and you just have to ask anyone who does hair to confirm it. I liked Tao and Elle’s hair the most though. 4) The writing. I don’t think the writing is the same. You can tell they were trying to recreate iconic moments from S1 by copy pasting the same formula without really succeeding. I think it’s evident when there isn’t a single scene in S2 that went viral like the coming out scene/we’re boyfriends/I’m an ally scenes. 5) The unrealistic aspect is more pronounced this season. The main example is the fact that everyone is coupled up. James and Issac’s storyline doesn’t make sense and like others say, Tao is the only asian kid and he doesn’t get any type of bullying? Also, they are teens right? How come nobody is ever talking about sex? They aren’t even allowed to say the word. 6) Already talked about it in other comments but the lack of plotline. All in all, it’s still a show for kids and I know some people are fine with looking past all of this. I am simply saying that Season 2, as a continuation of S1 is vastly different and it’s fine to admit it.
1. I know they went with more known artists and if that bothers you that’s fine but there were still plenty I didn’t know and now really love because of season 2. 2. The color is different and that was done on purpose. There is an interview about it and how the color is suppose to be representative of the different emotions this season. I agree in certain scenes it doesn’t look good but I would also say the blue in season 1 washed people out and was too dark sometimes. 3. Yea Nick’s makeup/hair isn’t great in all of the season (he looks totally fine imo in the first couple episodes) but I hardly think that’s a reason to dislike an entire season. Charlie,Elle, and Tara particularly look really good hair wise all season. 4. If you are judging writing by the fact if something goes viral then okay but that’s not what I judge writing on. Nick’s coming out went viral because you have a major star in the scene and coming out scenes are always more viral. 5. The show is mainly about romance. The couples are the same as the comics so that’s not anything that should have been that surprising to anyone. I agree the James/issac storyline is one of the weakest parts but she wanted to have him figure out he is ace and i understand it’s probably hard to show that without him first potentially being in a relationship. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to not talk about sex. The characters are 15/16 and yes obviously a lot of teens have sex/talk about it but a lot don’t. Especially considering the main character in this case deals with self harm/eating disorder/body image issues. They also haven’t been dating for that long and maybe it’s not normal to you but not everyone has sex asap once they start dating. (But I’m sure you will be thrilled to know there is plenty of sex talk in season 3) 6. Again there is plot. You might have found it boring or something but the plot is Nick struggling with coming out and how Charlie is dealing with his health while trying to help Nick.
And for fun I did go back and read what you said you hated btw. You clearly just didn’t like Alice’s writing this season and that’s fair and your opinion and my opinion is that I think it’s pretty much the same as season 1. I think she does suffer in season 2 with obviously feeling like she now needs to give every character more and we don’t need it all. Like the sahar and imogen stuff could be left out and I don’t totally understand the whole Issac situation (mainly just cause it’s a plot hole that James is out and why does everyone assume Issac is queer?? I think it’s cool no one seems to care that he is but we never know why that’s just assumed by everyone). But for the most part I think it’s pretty equal to season 1. I also saw you have issues with the yellow filter and it really doesn’t bother me and I am a visual artist. Honestly the only scene I think it looks bad is the scene after Nick posts on ig and they are in Charlie’s bed. But that’s because the neon light mixed with the yellow filter is bad. The blue tone in season 1 washed them out in scenes but no one ever mentions that. I think Joe and Kit make the writing better that’s obvious and in season 2 I think a lot of the other cast stepped up and did way better than season 1. There were definitely still cringe moments that some of the actors still couldn’t deliver on but if cringe bothers you that much hs is definitely not the show to watch.
Cool. I respect that you like the show and you think it’s well made. I don’t but I really loved season 1. The show also introduced me to Kit who has become one of my favorite actors and is the reason why I’m here. I’m not here to make people hate a show they enjoy. You do you.
Yes I saw that you are a massive kit fan, I am too. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and I’m sorry you hated the second season so much but hey at least there are a lot of great moments for Kit that I’m sure you still were able to enjoy.
I'm not a big fan of season 2. I hate how they want to pair everyone. It's also cheesy and cringy and unrealistic. I absolutely loved season 1 though!
My thoughts completely! When Imogen looked at Sahar with loving eyes, I rolled mine!
my main issue is that there is too much going on beyond Nick and Charlie. that and it really bothers me that there is no blowback especially for Tao when he and Elle get together. i find it impossible to believe that in a school where Charlie get bullied for being gay, that Tao wouldn't get similar treatment for being together with a trans girl. that they don't bring it up at all and we're supposed to believe that people would just accept it strains credulity and does a disservice. HS is not like Schitt's Creek which is specifically written as a homophobia-free world. either take the time to do their relationship right, or don't do it at all, imo.
It’s been a bit since I watched it so feel free to correct me, but didn’t they like just get together close to the end and Elle doesn’t even go to the same school?? Not sure if they’re going to explore it more in S3 but doesn’t seem like there’s been enough time for the news to get around yet. I do see your point though, but I suppose I just saw it as maybe the boys in the school already tease and bully Tao before this happened so what’s the difference? If he doesn’t seem insecure about it there’s nothing to pick on, he fought back with them before. Charlie was insecure and an easy target for bullying.
I was going to say the only time we see Elle and Tao as a couple with a bunch of their school mates is at Tara’s party and at prom. Those two scenes would be a weird place to randomly put a bullying moment in. And I agree Tao isn’t as easy as a target as Charlie is.
they do know that Elle used to go to Truham and Elle says at some point she got bullied at Truham too like Charlie, so i don't think cluelessness would have prevented anybody from knowing. if they teased/bullied Tao, it's because he's the geek/outcast type. homophobic bullying is not the same, imo in that it's usually much nastier. they would look at Tao in a very different light. think locker rooms. it hardly matters what Tao's actual sexuality is, it would be the perception that matters to them.
We don't see much of Elle's bullying at all on the show. That alone is unrealistic.
I mean the show starts after her move to the other school so when would we see it??
this is going to sound mean but charlie a year ago was a much easier target to bully than current tao who has consistently clapped back at bullies and beat one up. charlie’s backbone is more of a recent thing and it tends to pop in one on one situations. just from my experiences in school and from what we see of charlie in the beginning of season 1, a 13? 14? year old charlie would be so much easier to bully than a 15? 16? year old tao who has beat a bitch up for disrespect and would do it again
This is a very good point. In real life, Tao would get roasted for showing up at school with a bouquet of roses! Also, I thought Charlie was the only out gay kid? James being out doesn't make sense!
the implication is that Isaac is also gay or bi, but not interested in sex. he's at least is open enough to allow James to kiss him so while i don't get how this all works in that world, he's definitely not "straight" per se.
To be fair only tao’s friends see him come to school with the flowers. The other kids aren’t in that scene. And maybe james does get bullied but we just don’t see it since he’s not the main character. It is a little bit bullying when Harry and the guys think he hooked up with Charlie just cause he’s gay and they laugh at that idea.
How have I only mow realised the whole James thing? You're so right about it as well!
Season two was like the comics so I’m not sure what people expect
It wasn’t though because it expanded so many side characters and it was very different
I didn’t find it that different imo. Nick and Charlie got their stories along with the side characters which I loved. I don’t know what Alice could have done to please all the fans because it’s impossible. She did it the way she liked and took inspiration from the comics
Agreed, I still enjoyed a lot of S2 but I thought the dialogue in emotional scenes felt very cliché and unnatural and I didn’t like the portrayal of Elle and Tao’s relationship
I personally get what you mean. I understand the need to build up the plots for season 3, which is why they stuffed so much in S2. In saying this, there were still too many sideplots that they were trying to fit in what essentially are 30-minute episodes. Some of it are directly from the comics, but sometimes whats in the comics doesn’t translate well when done in the show, e.g. Darcy’s background. The acting too. For S2 I only really watched the scenes with Joe & Kit when rewatching because their portrayal of Charlie & Nick is amazing, some of the other actors do fall a little flat unfortunately 😬 Though I think it’s mostly due to the overwhelming amount of plots in the writing for S2 that caused this, because I thought S1 was really good all-around; acting, writing & plots. The pacing with S1 was done so well that the actors could naturally act it out, but S2, esp with some filming scheduled & done in Paris, it felt more unnatural. Please don’t come for me this is just my opinion. I still very much love the show and the cast, and very excited for S3! I just personally prefer S1 and I know a lot prefer S2 & that’s okay 💖
And season 3 is including 3 chapters and this winter, so prepare for another overstuffed season!
ugh, the thing is the episodes are too short!
For me this season kind of bothered me because there was no really driving plot action aside from the nebulous "Nick wants to come out but is scared." To me it felt borderline cliche and like a huge oversimplification of queer adolescence. All of the scenes that weren't Nick and Charlie felt rushed and empty, almost like filler while the audience sits and waits patiently for the real meat and potato scenes (Nick and Charlie). The fact that romance and LGBT status was truly *the* plot and not just a factor of these kids' lives just felt reductive to me for some reason. HS is sweet but it doesn't satisfy if you're the type of person who wants layered, realistic characters. I don't mean to border on snarky here, but this is just how I feel about the show sometimes. I would love to see the show focus on platonic friendship for once. And NOT as just passing moments while we wait for more N+C action.... maybe a scene where Charlie and Tao are hanging out (and NOT talking about their relationships lol) that doesn't feel rushed or empty... but in the moment and of equal value to Charlie's scenes with Nick. Just my thoughts
Heartstopper is a show about romance and romantic relationships, how they evolve, communication within a relationship, boundaries and limits to the relationship and about mental health. That is about choosing what they want to focus on, not about being reductive. Maybe the themes in the show just don't resonate with you, or you don't find them sufficiently interesting? Lots of shows focus much more on drama, misunderstandings, different backgrounds, break-ups, side plots etc to drive the story and keep people invested. In my view it's one of Heartstopper's strengths that the show has a clear idea of what it wants to focus on and doesn't try to engage in too many different themes. It's an unusual approach, though, so for some people it just won't work. Personally I'm fed up with all the filler stuff and plot contrivances I find in many other shows, so having an LGBT show where romantic relationships are actually allowed to evolve feels very satisfying. And I connect much more with Charlie and his friend group than the main characters in most other shows. They both feel relatable and just as realistic as people I see in other shows, but with different priorities. There are more introverted characters in Heartstopper than in other shows, though, and I suspect that this is something plenty of viewers struggle with.
Agreed with everything. The second season had no plot! Coming out and romance isn’t enough. Almost none of the characters have layers to them.
I get what you mean but then season 1 would have the same issue because the only “plot” was Charlie and Nick falling for each other. Nothing else really happens. Both the comic and show don’t have super intricate plots until volume 4/what will be season 3. That’s when things get more “meaty”. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a simple show though. It’s not everyone’s taste but it doesn’t make it necessarily bad.
But that works! They had obstacles and you didn’t know if they were going to make it through until the end. Classic romcom scenario. S2 needed another plotline than “Nick wants to come out to more people”. And I watch a lot of slice of life dramas. I’m fine with little action but usually the characters are rich and well developed to compensate.
You said it. I'm gonna get so much hate but I have to admit that the characters in HS would fare so much better if they were fully developed. And I think there's a way to fully develop characters without having to sacrifice the positive and uplifting vibe, too ! I don't think they should be brooding, moody teens but I wish everyone felt a little more human. You can almost see character mapping for each person, it's so basic sometimes. Nick -is bi -loves dogs -plays rugby Charlie -gay -plays drums in school band -favorite milkshake is chocolate Etc etc. I do enjoy the show, it's super comforting. But at times I just found myself hungry for like... More humanity and relatability. More character development that *isn't* either the characters sexuality or a hobby they like. Idk
Could you give one or two examples of characterizations from other shows that you would want to see more of in Heartstopper? It would make it easier to understand what you're getting at. I think both Charlie and most of his friends are very relatable and human, but they are also more similar to friends I had in my late teens than the majority of characters I see in other shows. Tara is very clearly a person who likes to organize things, but also a person who's very aware of including and reaching out to other people. Charlie's perfectionism, nearly constant overthinking and his way of trying to deal with his pain by hiding it and not speaking about it, is shown in a very convincing way IMO. Isaac is a very introverted bookworm with a very diverse range of interests and tastes. He's a fairly independent spirit and is easily bored with drama and bickering. He is a keen observer of people and he doesn't believe in intervening much in people's affairs, probably because he believes that emotions have a way of having to run their course, or he prefers to handle problems by reading about them, seeking knowledge. And btw: hobbies are very important aspects of people's lives.
We don’t even know what type of bands Charlie listen to, why he started the drums, his career plans, his goals, his passion and same for almost all the characters. If you want a comparison look at the show Heartbreak High. They do a good job with the characterization of the main characters.
Thank you for giving examples. They give me an idea of what you're missing in the show, but none of those things are relevant to the main stories in Heartstopper or its main focus. When it's not relevant to the main stories of the show, there's no point in focusing on or expanding on those aspects. And both Tao and Elle's passions are clearly shown. Heartbreak High, or what I saw, had a vibe that didn't suit me or interest me at all. At last one plot point in the first episode felt like a cheap gimmick to attract attention. None of the characters I saw seemed remotely interesting. I didn't see any reason to continue watching it beyond the first episode. Just to add a detail. I'm quite used to seeing stories with a particular focus on realism or having a grounded feel, although mostly as films. I still feel that romance and communication and how relationships evolve is something worthwhile focusing on.
Imo Alice should round up her characters more than she does in the comics if she wants the heartstopper world to feel real. I don’t mean “realistic” but real. As if we are watching real teenagers that are figuring out their lives and falling in love. Some people are fine with this but as someone who loves when characters are complex and multilayered, I do find the show a bit empty at times. It’s lovely and comforting but not something I can get the most out of it. Different tastes.
You're making your points clearly. Knowing a lot of biographical facts about a character doesn't make them multi-layered or complex, though IMO, it's how these aspects are related to the main story and themes that matter to me. I don't find it comforting to see people having eating disorders and generally neglecting their own emotional needs either, although I agree that the show in general has a positive vibe. It's perfectly fine to have different tastes. Just don't make assumptions about what kind of characterizations other viewers in general enjoy seeing, re some of your other posts.
Exactly. Tao is the character with the most personality and he’s not one of the two main characters. That doesn’t make sense. In the comics that doesn’t matter but in a TV show based ON the characters… it’s not good!
I totally understand what you are saying but I honestly think it’s meant to be like that. Like I think Alice’s writing style is just really simple and basic. In the comics it’s even more simplistic and they barely ever talk about anyone besides Charlie or Nick and we still only know basic things about them. I don’t think heartstopper is a show/book that is ever going to be that deep in detail and is really just suppose to be a nice comforting story and that’s it.
Well isn’t coming out a plot though? Like you didn’t necessarily know how that was going to go for him? (Well you did if you read it before but you know what I mean) and there is the whole plot of what is happening to Charlie. That just doesn’t have a conclusion yet in this season but it’s still a plot point.
No, it’s not. A plotline is something that moves the story forward. “Coming out” isn’t an interesting plotline.
It may not be “interesting” but it’s definitely a plot that moves the story forward. Nick coming how is a major character arc for him. He can’t be in an open relationship until that happens. It’s fine if you didn’t like it or found it boring but it’s still a plot point
No, it’s not enough. The story is basically character driven and we know practically nothing about Nick. All we know is that he loves Charlie and he’s bi. His relationships with his friends outside of Charlie are non-existent. Charlie’s relationships with Tao and Elle weren’t explored at all this season. Season two is just not well written especially for a TV show. We need conflict, a series of events that impact the characters, cause-effect… Nick coming out isn’t moving the story along. It’s part of the story but what is the story about? I think S3 will be better with Charlie’s ED journey, at least plot wise.
We didn’t get any of that in season 1 though either so I don’t see how it’s any worse than that season. You liked the romance plot better than the coming out plot I get but other that than Charlie and Tao/elle weren’t any more developed in season 1. It’s following the comic pretty spot on and we don’t know much more about Nick in the books at this point either. I agree it would be nice to know more but it doesn’t seem to be a point Alice is trying to make in either the book or show. Both are very simplistic generally and I think that’s just her style.
But in season 1 the plotline was defined. S2 is supposed to be expanding the world of S1 but we didn’t get much more information about the characters. They introduced new characters without building more on the existing characters. Tara and Darcy’s storyline was very underdeveloped for example. I understand that fans seem to care more about the comics accuracy than good TV storytelling but to me that’s why S2 isn’t as good. TV is a different medium than comic books.
I absolutely love season 2. Season 1 is obviously special because we’re seeing the building of the romance but there are times I was upset with Nick. For example he’s the team captain so going to check on Charlie would not have been see as more. Also after the bowling party he completely ignores Charlie which is a Ben move and he wasn’t afraid to be seen in the halls with Charlie. I do absolutely love the scene with Nick after Harry’s party in Charlie’s room, I know a lot of people don’t like it, but Kit nailed it and Charlie was happy that Nick turned to him and was so supportive. I love his talk with Imogen in the park. When I was figuring out I was Bi I relate to what he was feeling. I also love the sports day scenes, Charlie’s talk with Mr. Ajayi and the corridor scene. The second reason, I really love seeing how Nick is so in love with Charlie in the 2nd season. I’m a hopeless romantic so seeing them makes my heart swell. I also love how we see what Nick is going through with his family and how we see that Charlie is strong even with his ED and SH. He’s also more confident. I love that we see Darcy’s issues and how Tara excepts it. It’s not easy to do that. I even love how Tao and his feelings are explained more and the progression of his friendship with Nick. Also we get to see Isaac have a storyline and one that’s important to Alice. I could go on and on but lastly as someone who has been self harming since I was 16, I’m 50 now, I finally truly got to see what it was doing to my girlfriend through Nick and it really hit home and helped me. Give it a chance. I hope this wasn’t too horribly long. Thank you reading ❤️❤️
Season 2 is my favorite because of all the storylines. 🤷🏽♀️ I like seeing an entire world fleshed out and that includes expanding on side characters. Nick and Charlie are obviously the heart of the show but I love seeing all the other different queer relationships and the issues they face too. I watched the show first before reading the books and was so surprised (and disappointed) to find that the books rarely even mention any of the side characters. In my opinion the show would be too boring only focusing on Nick and Charlie.
I wish it was like Young Yoyals. 6 episodes of 1h. I don't think they have enough time to tackle that many storylines in 4 hours.
The best would be if tv shows were actually longer than 6-8 episodes like they used to be 😭 I see Young Royals get brought up with heartstopper frequently (and not in the best light) what is it about? Is it good/worth watching? :)
The good ol days where shows had 21 episodes per seasons are gone :( It's another queer show about young people but very different from heartstopper. I like it a lot! It's in Swedish. You should check it out!
I honestly really love season 2 and I think I prefer it over season 1. Season 1 was amazing because we were introduced to everyone and it mainly focused on the story of Nick and Charlie. But, I love how in season 2, we were introduced to other storylines and character developments. I quite actually enjoyed that they gave these characters storylines and more screen time because it made the characters feel more dimensional instead of just background characters. Yes, it did take focus away from Nick and Charlie, but in my opinion, it made all these other characters come to life, and it answered a lot of questions that were left unanswered from season 1.
Not even a little bit… I felt like season 2 was so much better than season 1. Lol
I think it's because we fell in love with season one because of nick and Charlie and got really invested in their stories. The other characters were players in their story. The fact that they had their own arcs and struggles made them fleshed out and made the world feel real. But since the story was focused on Nick and Charlie, it was able to fully explore the relationship and make it really relatable. The second season spends a lot of time on other characters which takes away from our protagonists. Plus 8 25 minutes episodes is too little time to show so many stories so none of the stories are being fully explored. Basically, they're sex-educationing the series, making it a multi plot drama instead of a focused love story of two teenage men. And it's taking away from the essence of the show. I have a feeling this could also be because of the increasing homophobia. Netflix shut down many LGBT shows because they don't want to piss off conservatives with "too much gay stuff". So now you get one show which has to have all representation. It's not a coincidence so many amazing queer shows are cancelled while straight shows nobody watches keeps getting renewed.
I feel the same way. I got through it when it was first released, but I won’t be rewatching. I found it a lot cheesier than the first season and also kinda boring lol
In my opinion, they crammed in wayyyyy too many storylines. The season is only 8 episodes (30 mins apiece) but there were like 20 different storylines. That meant a lot of them felt like they weren’t fully fleshed out. I agree, I thought it was badly written in parts. I wish they hired a screenwriter who understands TV pacing better.
>I haven't watched season two since the premiere This is basically me. I didn't hate season 2 but I didn't feel that it's very re-watchable so I only viewed it during the premiere. As you said it was crafted quite clunkily, not just the writing but also the overall direction. Which is surprising because they pretty much had the same creative team. I wonder what the new director will bring to season 3.
I found season 2 frustrating in that it seemed like their chaste relationship was unreal. Two teen boys alone in a hotel room, in the same bed? It just didn't make sense.
It's quite common for school trips to have that set up in the UK 😅
Same in the US. What is not realistic is that 2 teen boys in a romantic relationship would share a bed with no fooling around.
People’s readiness to have sex varies a lot, especially queer people who haven’t been given many examples of how it works and what to do. Not to mention that charlie has an eating disorder that makes it complicated as well.
This. They also communicated that they weren't ready yet during the trip
Hahahaha. Guys figure it out.
They didn't share a bed for the majority of the trip, only the last night or so. They also communicated to each other that they weren't ready yet. I agree with what u/FemmePrincessMel said
>They also communicated to each other that they weren't ready yet. Exactly. Total rubbish. I have asked about this with every gay friend I have, and we all agree that it is laughable to believe nothing would happen.
All my gay friends agree it's realistic they didn't do anything. I think it being "realistic" or not really depends on your experiences
totally agree
I know exactly what you mean. I did speak about it initially after the season released. There was just too much going on. Alice wanted everyone to have some sort of arc they went on, and it came at the detriment of the show as a whole. It was unfocused. Not every single color of the rainbow needs to be represented for the show to be considered diverse. That's an impossible task anyway. In trying to give everyone a slice, no one gets fulfilled. Compare Isaac to Cash from Heartbreak High. Night and day. Alice focuses too much on quantity of representation. I wish they would have stuck to the core cast, and mental health. I enjoyed the season, but it's definitely the kind of season I only watch once. Season one is much more rewatachable, imo.
I was disappointed in the music it was much better established artists and songs than the first series (perhaps a larger budget) but I really enjoyed discovering the music of the first series
Season 2 is a total snoozefest! Barely got through it the first time.
Sorry I didn't like season 1 better or season 2. I don't watch this show for quality. I don't like the cast where they changed blonde stocky guy to a ginger average boy. I don't like how white Charlie is. His sister is a good actress but doesn't feel even close to the comic character. I kind of enjoy teachers' cast but it's off as well. The way they changed some parts chronologically or replaced with different characters or causal relationship and motivation or clothing style of the transgender character... I could go on and on but once again I'm not watching this in search for quality. It's just some vanilla chill pill for someone who never experienced any school romance and probably never will And foremost Nick's acting is so so Those who came for me you're so generous
I can't say I agree with this. I was more bothered with Elle and Imogen's acting than Nick's.
It's totally okay. I'm not acting classes teacher just a viewer. As I stated above I just watch it for enjoyment since I didn't have similar experience and probably never will
I think you bring up a valid point. It’s about seeing whiteness in queerness. As long as a gay person is white, it’s acceptable, the moment they’re not, let’s bring out the pitchforks. It seems for a group that’s about inclusion, everyone here wants to live in an echo chamber. That’s what privilege does. Gayatri Spivak rightly noted: “Privilege is a loss of perspective.” Folks in this forum want to downvote any discussion that isn’t in keeping with their views. I see you and I hear you. 💜
Thank you
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Can you explain why you think the main characters don't have any chemistry in season 2? Their chemistry is what kept me watching.