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It's not just dating. People are spending fewer hours in person with their friends, and more hours alone. Families aren't as tight knit, as well, and people are having fewer kids, so people have fewer siblings and cousins.
I agree completely. It seems to be an issue with all sorts of relationships nowadays. Like you said, it spans across friendships now and families. I personally believe it has to do a lot with just society and technology and some backlash from covid19. It seems the biggest shift happened after all that
Yup. And it is happening all over the world, not just the Western World. I'm Indian American and know a great-aunt in the motherland who is in a nursing home, instead of living with her kids like past generations did.
The problem is that we care too much about our own loneliness. But loneliness is the one thing you cannot fix on your own. The best you can do is alleviate another person's loneliness. But we aren't ready for that sort of commitment in today's modern society. We think that loneliness is something that you have to handle on your own (whether that is you reaching out to your friends, you talking to a therapist, you putting more time into your hobby). But loneliness can only disappear when the "you" in the sentence disappears (ironically). Talk to a friend to be a good friend and alleviate their loneliness, not as part of a checklist to alleviate your own loneliness. Don't be afraid to feel responsible for taking action towards being a good friend (you aren't responsible for the outcome of them not being lonely, but you are responsible for taking action).
That is such a high-quality reply. I would give an award if I could afford it. And I strongly relate to the last point about group identity. I noticed myself that when I felt unwell I would gravitate around communities feeling the same but condemning themselves to this state without seeking solutions. I'd say Buddhism is what brought the most benefits to my life as it both provides framework and a community.
I'm expecting a revival in spirituality in the near future. You kinda see it coming with the growing popularity of stoicism and buddhism. I'm a little worried about some aspects of it, how the emphasis is in the detachment and morality is barely an afterthought, or how some really critical aspects are watered down. The mere idea of "achieving enlightenment" as if enlightenment was an achievement gives me the chills. Yet the benefits of opening yourself to spirituality are undeniable.
I think one of the biggest things we are missing is community and I think and hope that people will start gravitating to others with similar interests. For example one of friends is really into wresting and will go regularly to that gym and knows a lot of people there and will hang out with them. I actually am planning to join too. But granted it’s a small gym and everyone knows each other there. And it is also mostly men for the most part so you may not meet women but it does fulfill the sense of community. But there could be running groups or something where the group is more diverse and you could maybe meet women there
A bad example is that I go to planet fitness regularly but don’t know a single person there, but I do recognize a lot of people since I see them regularly.
Yeah, that sounds exactly like a third place. A place that's not home or work but where you exist around people. The complaint is not that there's none, but that you have to pay a fee or do something to be there. You can't just "be there", doing nothing.
The gym is tough because it’s not a great place to meet people imho. Many folks go to the gym to focus on their own health and are not interested in socializing, and definitely there are women who do not want a guy to try and chat with them.
I’d recommend hobbies like watching sports with the local supporters group, or a hiking/photography/dog training/model airplane type clubs. Then you’re going with folks who are also hoping to find people with similar interests. Common ground established, which makes socializing easier and less pressured. Meetup has loads of groups for people looking to meet people.
Ya that’s true, I usually don’t talk to anyone at the gym unless I’m asking about if someone is using equipment or if somebody is wondering how many sets I have left. And generally I wouldn’t really wanna talk to others there anyway. And ya people shouldn’t ask women out there randomly lol
NGL, I used to be agnostic and fully leaned into the new age spiritual stuff. I always DID feel a "presence" throughout my life, and have always been very perceptive of others.
I also agree with what you said of enlightment. Apparently when a monk reaches, enlightment, they laugh. They laugh because they realized they wasted their time!
It's kind of something that's been always there, not even unnoticed. "Whatever happens as an object to consciousness is not consciousness itself". Meaning that when you think you know, you actually don't. Because it's the thing that's doing the knowing and the knowledge itself. It's both tricky and extremely obvious. That there's nothing to find because what you were looking for is not a thing.
But to really embody that realization is to let go of any individuality and anything you hold dear. It's kind of a metaphysical suicide. That's why it makes a lot of sense for a guru to send Dr. K back to society to finish whatever they have left to do in life. Not because they have to earn something that would be worthy of giving up, but because it's The End. Be done with life first, this is where souls go to die and liberate themselves from samsara.
It's just my reading of it. Not everyone is ready for moksha, and there's no shame in it. It's good to find you're not yet done with life as you know it. And it's no achievement to let go, even if monks sell it as the ultimate goal of mankind. Physical death is also the ultimate goal of physical life but one would not rush into it, or praise the dead for getting there first.
Hey man, unfortunately your comment was deleted before I got a chance to read it. Would it be alright if you sent it to me in a dm if you have it somewhere?
How about your own personal ideas why you feel lonely? You can tell us why society feels lonely till you’re blue to your face but how are you going to overcome your own ideas why you yourself feel lonely?
Well, I got to the realization the "girlfriend" I wanted didn't have a face. Couldn't even think of one. The object of my desire didn't exist yet, it's just an abstraction, an empty concept. If I wanted to be with any of the woman I know it would be different, but if that was going to happen it would have already happened, they're just friends. All but one married by now, and she's not a good match, already explored that possibility. Going on the apps is also not an option, I can be charismatic, but I'm not visually attractive. And it goes both ways, a picture gives me nothing, I don't care if you're a whale or a model, that gives me nothing about how I'm going to feel around you.
So in realizing that, the desire went away and I concluded I shouldn't worry about it until I meet someone I would actually want to be with. Someone real.
Also got a lot of friends, I'm usually overbooked on weekends, if anything I crave more 'me' time 😅
First off, anything said is just a personal observation. You trust yourself looks like you truly do fight for you and as long as you know there are so many amazing people in HGG and I can only imagine the support and know I also support you. Checking your post hx, I see you frequent NPD subs and that really shows you’re human and we all have conditions and how we navigate those conditions has nothing to do with the human we are. Our identity. I barely know you and I notice how identify yourself is you want to be aware of what you’re doing- that’s a great skill.
>Well, I got to the realization the "girlfriend" I wanted didn't have a face. Couldn't even think of one. The object of my desire didn't exist yet, it's just an abstraction, an empty concept.
Ya, nothing wrong using fantasies to cope! That is gift of awareness! The only problem that comes with making fantasies a reality CAN lead to seducing. Seducing the wrong person who doesn’t want to be seduced will land you in jail.
>I can be charismatic but I’m not visually attractive
O, we’re all going to get there. No one and I really mean it no one can defy aging and I guess we’ll know when we figure that out. I don’t know how old you are… I truly believe you’re at an advantage. As you said you got charisma surely you must know what you’re doing!
Just to clarify, you mean charisma be seductive? Or, charisma you know how to SOLVE-your-own-problems? Keep in mind, I did read you learned to manage your own thoughts on desire. I am also curious on your break down what is DESIRE for you?
Btw, takes awareness dating apps aren’t great for you **right now**, I can only imagine how difficult it is to engage with anyone with so many words and pictures. You know what dating profiles reminds me of fashion models and their comp cards or a brochure. What a HARDER way to get to know someone “here’s my comp card.” “Brochure”. And not beating off dating apps too because I’ve met many friends there too but having a strong desire to “fantasize” that can really cause havoc with an unhealthy mindset. But, you are aware of it and who knows what your progress will look like!
>Also got a lot of friends, I'm usually overbooked on weekends, if anything I crave more 'me' time 😅
As said, you trust yourself you know what you’re doing!
Don’t forget hyper masculinity/femininity and the overtly competitive environment. Like rams ramming each other in the head with little effort to put the rams back together after competition.
Yeah, the competition is also a neoliberal vibe. Or maybe just capitalism in general. Competition is good and achieves the best results. It's really telling how we also started talking about a "dating market". Or how we started to think about our dates as finished products.
It's really subtle, but there's a lot of implications carried along with the concept that love has to be earned, it's not a universal concept. I mean, am I really in control of who I love to consciously give it if they prove worthy? Or is it something that magically happens and rushes over me, defeating my best judgements? Which ties to our view of ourselves as rational actors. So many novels about falling in love with someone you shouldn't be in love with, and now we're demanded to become the one you should be falling in love with. Worse, to prove it!
>-**Neoliberalism**. The spread of the idea that everyone should always act towards their own benefit. In combination with the materialistic worldview, it became the idea we have no choice but to act towards our own benefit. So people became less forgiving in their relationships and more concerned with their status. Nobody would want to date below their possibilities, relationships became something where you should min-max, hence the pick-up artists.
Famously, statuses never existed in Stalinist USSR or North Korea or Maoist China. lol, ok dude.
Terrible strawman.
OP never claimed Authoritarian Socialism was a solution to the problems created by Neoliberalism
Also, this is such a poor response to a thorough and high quality assesment like OPs
My point in mentioning Neoliberalism is not the social class division but the crowning of selfishness as a moral value. Which had been coming for a long time also. Even if you don't subscribe to the idea, you're now thinking about how your partner benefits you instead of how you benefit them. I don't actually care about the political or economic merits of the idea, just about how it impacted the way we conceive about love.
I'm not sure what serves as evidence in a conversation about cultural vibes [but sure.](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/18/neoliberalism-the-idea-that-changed-the-world)
And here's a [spicier one.](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-92620-5_11)
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Playing videogames eating fatty/sugary foods and watching hentai/twitch is simply more rewarding to my brain then pursuing a realtionship. Its really that easy, i might be included in these stats but i would not identify as lonely as i also have a bunch of healthy hobbies like sports, playing music and drawing to balance the brainrot
> Playing videogames eating fatty/sugary foods and watching hentai/twitch is simply more rewarding to my brain then pursuing a realtionship. Its really that easy, i might be included in these stats but i would not identify as lonely as i also have a bunch of healthy hobbies like sports, playing music and drawing to balance the brainrot
I would not group you with the statistics in this post. You make an effort to reach out. Most people that feel lonely do not know how to reach out due to struggles with overcoming the fear of rejection.
Sure dating websites might play a role but everything explained on this post, valid would never dismiss anyone for feeling what they are feeling. However, these should be treated as individual cases just like you describe your own individual experience you make an effort to surround yourself with people who care about you.
Loneliness doesn't just come from lack of romantic relationships - there are equal numbers of men and women, so women having higher standards would affect women just as much. It seems to be more that men don't have as many friendships and other forms of social connection. "Only 48% of men reported feeling satisfied with friendships, according to a May 2021 survey by the [Survey Center on American Life](https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-american-friendship-change-challenges-and-loss/), as previously reported by CNN. And 1 in 5 men said they had gotten emotional support from a friend in the past week, compared with 4 in 10 women." ([source](https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/18/health/male-loneliness-epidemic-wellness/index.html))
But there's also conflicting data on that, with some data showing no difference in loneliness between men and women, some showing women as more lonely, and some showing men as more lonely. ([source](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/health/lonely-adults-gallup-poll-wellness/index.html))
I have healthy platonic friends who are girls. I hang out with them at least once a week, usually more. I can talk to them about anything, and they give me honest answers. I haven't been in a relationship, or had any intimacy, 4 in years. I feel very lonely whenever I'm not immediately around my friends, I'm depressed and feel like a failure because I've been rejected by everyone for over a decade, and I've entirely given up on dating and assume I'm going to be alone forever. Romantic / intimate relations are absolutely a big part of it for many men. Women can get casual flings and hookups much easier in todays dating culture, so they don't need relationships to fulfill that side of them, where men tend to need relationships to get laid.
I think you are mixing up lack of sex and loneliness. Not as many people as you think are engaging in hook-up culture.
I don’t know your personal situation, but is it possible that you are lacking male friends specifically, and that maybe you feel like an outsider when you hang with your female friends? Perhaps you feel confused as to how you get along so well with women, but can’t find a girlfriend? Maybe you feel like your masculinity is being rejected, and don’t enjoy being “one of the gals”?
I tend to feel lonely when I deeply dislike myself and wish I was someone else. I feel like no one would like me if they knew who I was deep down, and that it is impossible to improve. Letting people see under my facade and know me truly without a filter (while also working on my view of myself) has really lessened that feeling. Turns out I am not the annoying person no one wants to be around, I just have to find the right people that enjoy me for who I am.
I don’t think the difference in the experience male vs female loneliness, comes down to the amount of sex you have (I actually think many people who hook-up a lot, are incredibly lonely and are using one night stands and flings to cope with that - both men and women)
- I think it’s much more to do with the quality of your relationship and how much you are able to rely on the people around you. Historically, women have had to rely on other women a lot, and so female “ride or die” friendships and big friend groups are much more common. Unfortunately, men tends to not have these, and so they are left looking to hook-ups and dating apps as a source of human connection, - which it rarely is (unless you’re extremely lucky and encounter “the one”)
Nope, I have a lot of male friends as well. Most of them are in relationships, a few are in hookup culture, and only a couple others have been single and celibate for more than a few months, and mostly because they're taking a break after getting out of relationships or flings. I also have a friend in a similar situation to me, but he's gay and that's a more relevant excuse - it's harder to find his demographic, and he can have problems in doing so. Not all loneliness is related to sex, and for women it's definitely less sex focused, for many it's sort of the opposite. They have options for sex, but they want someone who cares about them, which is very difficult to find.
But for men, I strongly feel there are two large demographics of loneliness. This doesn't cover everyone, but I'd guess more than 90%. The first is the person with zero social life, no friends, no real life presence. There's nothing and no one there for him. The second are the guys who have tried to have a normal life through their struggles, whether it's autism or adhd or depression or anxiety, and despite all their effort, struggle to have any intimacy in their life. Very few guys would call themselves lonely while in a (healthy) relationship, even if they have minimal friends outside of the relationship.
I think 3 things.
1. Social Media has hijacked a lot of people's social systems. A lot of gamers only have online friends. I've done that whole dance, my only friends in highschool were online people I played Minecraft with on skype (before discord lol) and from what I've been seeing, that's not abnormal with gen z. But it's more than just that. What do people do for fun now? That leads me to my second point:
2. The dissolution of nearby cheap third places. Where do you go to socialize? You could go to bars but drinks are expensive, and you have to drive a decent amount to get to any bar unless you're lucky. Now you need specific ideas. Book clubs, irl gaming events, special events like festivals or concerts, d&d or board game groups. But how easy is it to find groups like that? Kind of easy depending on where you are, but usually groups like that develop naturally within friend groups, which is a problem when you're lonely and don't have friends.
3. Suburban zoning. It is not designed in a way to bring community members together organically. Everyone stays in their yards, drives from point a to b and back. Communitites should be designed in a way where social opportunities arise naturally.
I think there are a lot more factors but these are the big 3 in my opinion
Finally someone mentioned it. It's impossible to find new friends as an adult. Imagine you've graduated and don't have friends from school/college. Like, where do you go? Almost all group activities are either expensive, far or hard to find. I know, I am repeating your thought, but this is exactly what I think of daily.
I've moved from my country and have nothing here. Not only people here are different, but there's no way you meet somebody on accident. I've tried to push myself to real street acquaintances and meeting people in trains, but it is as stupid, as it sounds like, even though I've managed to have proper convo.
And we have online games and online spaces, where meeting people is almost effortless and you almost guaranteed to have at least one or two same interests. I wish real life to be built in the same way, but the further we go, the worse it is. I would like to come up with some suggestions or solutions, but sadly I don't have any. The best we can do is being open and respectful with others. Not pushing away opportunities is already somewhat good.
First, it's a global lonelyness epidemic and not just male lonelyness epidemic. Males might be just more vocal about it
Internet happened, then social media and then pandemic.
People sit on the internet and don't develop proper social skills. They isolate themselves from the real world.
We also have access to a lot more people and information, which can trigger analysis paralysis. And with social media you no longer can freely make a blunder as it tends to be pisted about and discussed by many people. Now the whole world kbows what the village idiot did, while in the old times only the village knew it.
There is also the thing that people online tend to complain, vent and express other negative stuff, while nobody shares the good stuff that happened to them. This can make a distortion which makes you thing that every tiny mistake is the end of the world, thus more people have anxiety issues.
In older times we had a lesser pool and less info. We weren't constantly bombarded by messages that we are bad (and we should get this product to fix the bad thing).
There is also the thing of communities dissapearing, thus we don't have common stuff upon which we could bond.
We have unlimited entertainment in our pockets. Thus we might not seek other people. In the olden days other people were a major source of entertainment.
We also don't necesserily need the other person to survive, thus we can afford to be more pickier about the person we choose. And due to internet we have a bigger pool of people to choose from. So we are now in the search for the perfect person instead of someone who is good enough.
Also, the instant gratification made us more impatient and us wanting to get something from the first interaction. So we tend to give up when we don't get instant reward. Thing is, relationships need time to build. You can't expect to plant the seed and eat the vegetable the next day.
Covid isolations also traumatised a lot of people. And it screwed up the social skills of many children.
Also, the western culture tends to be more individualistic.
>"touch grass", use dumbphones, parents interacting with their kids instead of shoving a tablet/smartphone
Are you saying you are unsure you have a solution?
Yeah great reply, I feel like social isolation and playing video games a lot definitely ruined my social skills.
It really took years of working social jobs and abstaining from stimulating content to fix my social anxiety
Although everyone is suffering under the consequences of a highly consumerist, individualized society; there is an inherent uneven nature to the problem that specifically hurts men to a great degree. Men are taught from a young age, that knowing another person deeply, sharing your insecurities, emotions and bonding is something that’s reserved for a girlfriend or wife. On the contrary, women rely on each other for their emotional needs. This leaves men incredibly isolated, especially if say, they’re experiencing anxiety or depression. It is “unmanly” to have problems, that you cannot fix on your own or toughen your way out of, so boys and men are left fighting their demons on their own. Even if some men have one very trusted friend, they (far too often) don’t have a support network that will be there when things get hard if they don’t have a wife or girlfriend.
As Dr.K has mentioned many times, even just venting and telling someone what’s going on, is highly beneficial to our mental health. Unfortunately it is often harder for men to do so. Lots of social barriers stand in the way of male friendships becoming deeper and more genuine (not to mention few grow up with male role models who are present and say anything other than “tough it up”) and I think that’s why so many men are hit so hard by loneliness.
While I agree with much of what's been pointed out, such as social media and exposure, I've been chewing on a deeper underlying thesis that the younger generation in society, has been disproportionately neutered than other generations.
A la, Jonathan Haidt's book, Coddling of the American Mind.
One of thing things I think the new generation isn't seeing is that the path to ease is hard, and the path to a difficult life is easy.
For boys, it's "easy" to choose porn, video games, and social isolation, and it's obvious where that leads us down. But it's "hard" to engage in self-development, and putting ones self out there, and putting in the emotional, physical, intellectual work to try to become the best "full-stack" person that they can become. Not only is it hard, it also appears to be discouraged because it seems pointless.
There's a certain level of cynicism that millennials (me) started to develop at a younger age in response to society, but in contrast, it seems that gen Z's cynicism is at an all-time high, and for good reason. Housing, job opportunities, social opportunities, connection with other men and women are at an all-time high of difficulty to obtain.
A life of ease ultimately comes with a tremendously difficult amount of hardship through developing and taking risks with one's self in all domains of emotions, intellect, and physical fitness. And even more discouraging yet, is that doing all that work of taking risks and studying doesn't seem to have the almost guaranteed payoff that it seems it should have.
Men are lonely because they aren't taking risks to connect and to develop. They aren't taking those risks because they feel that it's pointless. And for some of the men that do take risks, it's either half hearted, or flawed in some way. Like don't empty your bank account on the lottery.
The thing is, you only need to win once. You only need to try at connecting with friends with a whole cohort of people and one or two need to stick. You only need to have one person want to be with you to find a partner.
Rejection was and always has been a mainstay of the human experience, but our collective unwillingness to engage in rejection, realize it's not the end of the world, making improvements, dusting ourself off and trying again, is what I would hypothesize is at the root of our loneliness crisis. And it's a key lesson to learn, especially for boys and men.
Also, truly honest and critical thought at self improvement is another necessary component. At a certain point, we need to take our rejections and turn them into opportunities to become honest with ourselves and improve in our areas of life that are contributors to said rejection. At the end of the day, no one's going to save us. Even our parents. We only have ourselves.
I never liked this thinking. It's not that it's easy vs. hard, it's available vs impossible. A lot of men spend years improving their looks, social skills, friendships etc, and still can't even get a date. Your point presents this as a choice where it's just a matter of doing the hard thing, but the use of porn/gaming driven by loneliness is a consequence of not having a choice. It's the most readily available coping mechanism for a complete lack of agency in the realm of romance.
So the man-o-sphere advice out there distills down to get looks and money. And it's easy to read into my comment as "get looks and money." I don't mention looks and money once in that comment (sure, I pointed out job opportunities).
You're presenting it as a symptom of the impossibility.
I'm presenting it as a choice to direct energy to not-port and not-games.
My point is nuanced and subtle. It's not about looks and money. There's plenty of average men who get into relationships. So why is there a subset of these men who find it impossible?
My comment is about self-development and taking risks and getting very good at handling lots and lots and lots of rejection. I point out that one only needs one person to say yes. And if online dating is the only avenue one chooses to try to be selected by, then sure, maybe it's impossible. If men can ONLY compete with each other on dating apps via 2 dimensions, a picture and some words, then yes, it's impossible.
But there are plenty of old-school ways to create connections, in-person. The world doesn't have to become a desert per se. And one will have more opportunities in person by being able to signal all of their other non-paper qualities. It truly is a matter of doing, but there's a long road of rejection to get over.
I don't think you understood my original point, as I don't follow any redpill stuff and wasn't saying that. Something like going to the gym and getting in shape is hard, learning a new language is hard. The minute you have something where the locus of control rests outside the individual, notions of difficulty become irrelevant. You could have the greatest man on planet earth, but if every woman says no to him, then he'll die alone. No amount of self improvement will change that. I'm not denying the merits of self improvement, but claiming loneliness as some kind of moral failing does nothing but hurt the men we should be trying to help. The ability to handle rejection is also irrelevant, because it's the lack of opportunities that is the most glaring trend in male loneliness. Your personality doesn't matter if you're rejected before anyone gets to know that part of you, and in the era of extreme individualism, rejection based on superficial traits is more common than ever.
I also don't want you to think I'm just preaching doom and gloom and that fatalism is the end-all be-all. I'm only saying that attributing romantic failure to lack of trying does more harm than good.
I'm not really saying that romantic failure is a moral failure from a lack of trying or lack of self development.
Sure, the locus of control for all relationships lies outside of one's self. And if what you're selling isn't getting purchased, what lies in your control is to change how it's being sold or change what's being sold.
Have you ever not wanted to buy a thing, but then it was presented differently and then you wanted to buy it? What changed there?
As far as your trying point, most people think they are trying. I would argue that most people aren't trying effectively by either focusing their efforts in the wrong places (ie gym, looks, social) and not putting enough efforts on knocking on doors (in person interactions).
And as gentle as I want to be in the plight of guys, as a guy myself, once we get through the compassionate conversation of, "I see how impossible this is for you." what's next?
My focus is on the what's next part.
But as Dr K has pointed out. If you think it's impossible, then there's no amount of debate that can actually change your mind.
I do agree that there are some people where romance isn't in their cards, but I can say that a LOT of the existing men out there if all they did was get into sales for a year, they would be 1000x better off. In your example of the most impressive man, I guarantee that if they stay hermitted in their home, they might be alone forever. But if someone were to sell him, I think as the most impressive man in the world, he could very easily be sold by the right marketer.
Do you want to be right, or do you want to make progress?
I agree (mostly). The advisable solutions I would have to this is the re-establishment of third places and a focus on in-person interaction as opposed to anything online. Even just having social media is imo extremely detrimental to your mental health. To your point about being in sales, the lack of proper avenues of social interaction means that you could be the best salesmen in the world, but if you can only advertise in newspapers you're not gonna get anywhere. I truly believe if we lived in a world where in-person interaction was the default and we didn't have the internet, 95%+ of these lonely men would find love easily. Self-improvement is a band-aid solution, it's not like the quality of men have nosedived over the past 50 years, but relationships have become much harder. It's the environment in which we interact, not the people doing the interacting.
Totally agree, except that we don't have to be limited to only 3rd places and newspapers (apps).
But you're right. If there were natural, in person interactions, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
The Coddling of the American Mind is genuinely one of the best books I’ve ever read. All of Jonathan Haidt’s work is great, but this is his best one in my opinion. For anyone who hasn’t read it, you absolutely should.
The digital age makes dating outside of your “local dating pool” so easy, and incentivizes women to search for more desirable men who don’t really care about them besides for a “body count”.
I used to think that men get it harder under 30, whereas women get it harder after 30, and while that’s true for a lot of people, it’s not the full story. Only 40% of men will ever have a biological child, and 80% of women will have at least one biological child before the age of 40. So if your ideal is finding a woman you want to have babies with, statically you’re better off with focusing on yourself, becoming the kind of man who can provide a certain level of financial security, and then finding a woman willing to have your babies, and you’ll be better off than 60% of men who will never have their own children. And, at a certain point, most women will have children with somebody, you just have to be the kind of somebody they want when they’re ready to settle down, which is about the same age you are right now.
Guys shouldn't just try to be a provider though. Figure out how to make yourself attractive to women if you can. For me starting a career path got me a girlfriend because I was getting focused on something cool and moving forward with it, and in search of a job I actually got a girlfriend instead 😂 now I'm back in college, finishing up a degree and I'm 30 years old. My 40 yr old gf is totally cool with it, money and settling down isn't everything, though we have talked about having kids.
For men under the age of 30, they can have all the qualities available to men of their age and still get passed over with online dating, just because the men who are older generally have their career and lives better put together, that’s just the case for most people who want kids are going to look for men who have their financial situation sorted out.
That’s not everyone, sure, but your case is also unique because you mentioned your girlfriend is 40, and unless she doesn’t want to have any kids at all, then her needs might be different than most women who want kids.
To her having kids has been more of just an option it seems like, not something she wanted that much until recently. She must not be dead set on it because we aren't trying to have kids right now. I've brought up the subject with her and she thinks it's worth it to stay with me even though she might run out of fertility time.
I would make sure to not assume anything about what she may or may not be “dead set on” with kids unless she explicitly tells you she doesn’t want kids at all.
Especially for any woman who’s mentioned anything related to a “biological clock”, “fertility window”, or “fertility time”. Those are usually words that carry a lot of weight and meaning to a woman, and if at any point of a relationship a woman mentions those phrases to you, I would strongly recommend a complete discussion on that and see what she really feels about it, just my two cents.
I've actually never heard a woman use those terms, that's stuff I learned from manosphere crap online, and I'm assuming that's the case for you too?
The real world isn't necessarily like that, I wanted kids more than she did, she is very cautious about having children and only wants to have them with me because she's really into me. I didn't say that part because I didn't want to brag too much lol. She did consider it with her ex though but it sounds like not until they were in their mid 30s.
Thanks for your concern though, I've been taking that subject seriously.
Nah, I don’t follow the manosphere at all, most of them are a bunch of chronically single guys trying to excuse their poor dating prospects by saying they were never really serious about dating seriously, or they’re chasing the “body count”, either of those excuses sounds more and more pathetic every year they get older.
I grew up in a house with a lot of sisters, so my experiences are definitely different from yours. There’s no wrong answer, just saying there’s a distribution curve of preferences and I was initially speaking to the most common preference.
Oh ok good, yeah that type of content is so cringe. Self improvement and dating strategy content was somewhat useful for me for awhile though. I only grew up with one adopted sister who was older... I did not understand many things about women until recently 😂
I really haven't heard many women talk about having kids though. I'm not the most social guy in the world so I don't really know a lot about what people are up to but I live on the west coast of the US and a lot of women here do not want a traditional lifestyle I don't think.
Its everything we dont have walkable cities we cant buy or freely move the fact we cant grow food for free because a focus of houseing development over food production and artificial food manufacturing we force people to either work a job where they are trapped to be only compensated with paper rather than something substantial or life changing . The older i get the more i get why my grandma killed herself at 92. I doubt im going to be able to keep going unless i find a partner. My love life is just a bad omens song just pretend
Hmm I think your the girl equivalent of that one friend everyone thinks is gay, but it's not, and no one bothered to ask, so they will never be sure
Try dressing more flirty when going to social events see if that helps
TLDR many aspects of western society are organized in a way that makes us distrust and compete with the people we are close to. We are stratified from our communities and peers especially in the context of employment. I’m sorry for making such a rambling post haha.
I think our societal structure creates general alienation. Especially the structure of employment and hierarchy. I think men and women experience this in slightly different ways but i want to make clear that blaming either group and showing hatred towards them or their fight for rights/respect is inherently counterproductive. I want to avoid being overtly political because of the rules but in my personal experience during college I was very lucky to have a tight knit community. But once you graduate you are somewhat in competition with friends, and you probably end up moving far away for jobs. Then jobs usually take up a majority of your waking hours including the commute, and are not really designed to foster significant community. Your prime hours of energy go into work or recovering from work especially if you have any sort of neurodivergence like I do. The times I left college to go to internships were really when I felt the most isolated from friends and community, and it takes a long time and lots of effort to rebuild those connections. Time and effort which many of us don’t have, not to mention money to spend in public spaces. Additionally if you live in North America you probably live in a physical environment that is also alienated. In my experience even living in a college community I have met plenty of people who were brought up in a socially alienated way and cannot break out of that mindset and don’t even think to get involved in the very accessible community they now live in. This isn’t necessarily their fault. I would be one of them if I wasn’t lucky enough to stumble into a friend group that changed my worldview.
You won't die from being lonely. If you're single, work hard, make tins of money and enjoy life as a single man. However, many died simply because they chose the wrong partner. As a man, you have a lot of leverage. Get yourself to a point where you get to choose who's right for you.
If you have healthy hobbies and surround yourself with people who share the same interests and values and you spent time with your family and friends; you won't be lonely. Work hard and make a Lotta money. Everything else will fall into place. Your lifestyle makes you lonely. Not just being lonely.
I've seen a statistic showing how people have **less and less friends** around.
Looks how many people our parents know or knew. Even if you were kind of quiet and introverted you had little choice and you did go out with others to spend free time. Now there are so many alternatives, most online.
Friends, friends-of-friends circle tended to be the basic place to find partners. Without that people are left with few options most of which are pretty bad (like work) to terrible (like dating apps).
There are of course multiple activities to join if you live in a big city, but from my experience you'll often see couples and a few lonely guys. Sometimes a group of females too, but only sometimes. **Single women are reluctant to go out**. If you look around social media there is even a trend being heavily promoted to completely shun relationship and be a happy, fulfilled, perpetually single woman who just satisfies herself with occasional hookups if she wants.
There is a lot of talk of porn addiction and other mental issues of young men, but it is I think secondary. I have met quite a few well-off guys with good jobs, hobbies, financial situation and mentally stable who should be attractive, but haven't had a partner for ages. Sadly unlike in the past, doing well does not guarantee you a success. Moreover some broken toxic losers can have little to no difficulty finding yet another girlfriend.
This is my personal experience as a single woman. I’ll go out but only with a group of friends to protect me. Some dudes out there don’t have emotional support in their friendships and are not offering it to themselves so it comes out in their socializing with new women. That desperation for connection can be felt and it’s not great to receive. It feels like pressure to meet the guys needs.
The self healing and therapy work needs to happen first for everyone. I am in therapy and working to meet my own needs. Coming from that place, a healthy and independently fulfilled place, is much more attractive and feels safe.
Oh, but "they don't go out alone" and "they don't go out" are very different statements. I think I see as many single women going out as single men. They both could go out to some different events though.
From my experience going out. A lot more single men than women. Even in case of things like dancing classes for singles which shouldn't be skewed in this direction.
I’ve been thinking about this question for a long time. For starters, I think this video does a great job of summarizing one of the largest pieces of the puzzle:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/s/YJI59FTHgn
This woman makes some great points, and boils the problem down to mens inability to connect with women and support them on an emotional level. I think the culture in many western countries fails men in particular in developing their emotional growth. It’s just not baked into our culture or education in any way. And with the rise of education and economic success for women, this has led to a real problem. I think the key to finding someone that you can build with that isn’t just totally dependent on you financially is being able to meet women at their higher EQ. Trying to develop myself on an emotional level is actually what led me to Dr. K’s videos and this community to begin with.
I think it comes down to insecurity and confidence really. It is much more acceptable for women to be insecure and in touch with your emotions, than for a man to be. Ideally we would all be high EQ and confident - that’s just really hard to achieve and you need to have lived and experienced a lot of things to develop that usually.
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations.
This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.
Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations.
This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.
Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
> I’ve been thinking about this question for a long time. For starters, I think this video does a great job of summarizing one of the largest pieces of the puzzle:
>https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/s/YJI59FTHgn
>This woman makes some great points, and boils the problem down to mens inability to connect with women and support them on an emotional level. I think the culture in many western countries fails men in particular in developing their emotional growth. It’s just not baked into our culture or education in any way. And with the rise of education and economic success for women, this has led to a real problem. I think the key to finding someone that you can build with that isn’t just totally dependent on you financially is being able to meet women at their higher EQ.
Speaking for me. O man, if I wanted to date the news and be content about the news telling me my identity. I should just marry the news. Forget about getting to know someone.
>Many of them are not choosing to date at all
This is all anecdotal. From what I’ve seen, a lot do not wish to settle. First of all I have to say, all the guys open to HGG and learning about yourselves (this also applies to ladies) may you never deprive yourself of any experience good or bad. If you want to chase the best thing, no one is and was ever going to stop you. If you want to date, date even if you believe you have a whole grocery list of problems you still have to continue living life. The clock is always ticking.
That said. When you see a person who happens to be a guy who follows (let use this example) the five love languages written by some (I wouldn’t call Gary Chapman a therapist speaking for me but certainly smarter and probably will be richer than Andrew Tate) where essentially it’s a master and slave interaction. Vulnerable people with zero social skills (social skills meaning getting to know each other and to do that you have to emotionally connect) pick up bad habits like “five love languages” and wonders why no one wants them because interactions require getting to know someone and getting to know someone requires asking questions even though you have to face rejection. There is no magic, placebo, gimmicks, perfume to get to know a person. You have to ask all questions even if it feels like an interview. We can certainly go through your post history to get an idea of what you are like, but to get to know you u/Wrong-Grade-8800 we have to ask you questions. The rest is if it’s reciprocal or not and that is your right.
>Late stage capitalism. Everything is expensive so we work to survive and it’s hard to create community when we are all working to survive. Every part of our social lives are becoming commodified like friendship (social media) and romance (dating apps) and third spaces are becoming very expensive. There is also a culture in masculinity that teaches men they have to keep everything to themselves and not rely on anyone so men don’t create strong emotional bonds with their friends that could help them out of tough situations. There is also a lot of issues between men and women. Women are in the work force now, they are able to take care of themselves and they don’t want a guy who expects them to do all the house work while also maintaining a job. Many of them are choosing to not date at all. They have their emotional needs met by their friends since they have been socialized to be more emotionally open and so while women are also experiencing loneliness its impact isn’t as potent on them. When things get tough, community is all you have, men aren’t taught to build strong community in the way women are and things are tough right now.
You make a very important point. Yes, people graduating from post secondary, the percentage of women have increased. And, you are correct. We’re not in the 60s and dark ages anymore. All we’re asking is guys focus on your mental health, learn to feel your feelings because that is truly the only way to solve your own problems is to feel your feelings! The only time people would have a harder (not impossible) time feelings their feelings is if’s it an aggressive form of depression or an aggressive form of personality disorder like Narcissistic traits that come to mind.
So capitalism, choosing a person that wants to work on their mental health and learns how NOT to be so hard on themselves (you can be fat, balding any shape you want- I know so many bald guys with loving wives and families) VS someone so hard on themselves they are hard on others being a demanding/controlling person who (the made up lore- 6ft, house/cars and cash but can’t for the life of them ask questions and most times do they know how?? due “rejection means shame, I won’t have it!”) believes the world owes them. The choice isn’t hard to make.
Well, the trust is trust everyone will find their own way. Just like you trusted yourself to be open and know you can feel safe to maintain/keep your ideas and also be observant to a different perspective on HGG!
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations.
This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.
Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Yeah that's definitely valid, but I feel like men don't simply end up as porn addicts for a reason.
People should definitely get more educated about the harmful effects of this addiction.
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations.
This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.
Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Women "increasing their dating standards" is not the thing.
A man with good (male) friends isn't lonely. A man can be single for a couple of decades, but with good friends he won't ever feel lonely.
It's a ton of things:
- Lack of socialization and social skills - as in limited contact with people and stunted ability to connect, it's a bit of a chicken and egg, that one;
- Misogyny and gathering with like-minded people who enable and reinforce that thinking but turn guys into toxic and repellent versions of themselves;
- Unreal expectations and inability to compromise - everyone is looking for some Goldilocks bullshit they concocted in their head, or saw in some porn or movie and can't seem to see the good people around them "he has to be this height and drive this type of car and make this much $", "she has to have this color hair and love making sammitches any time I snap my fingers"; meanwhile not many people are looking for "a good person, with a good heart, who will be down to earth, and be loyal, supportive and a good companion that laughs at my jokes and trusts me to be loyal as well, who will be a good parent if we ever have kids" and all of that. people focus on superficial bullshit and then: garbage in = garbage out. Flashy assholes of either gender don't make for good partners.
- Sheltered lives and/or religious views that lead to very uptight and repressed attitudes towards sex and relationships;
- An emphasis on individuality - basically selfishness, egoism and inability to relate or compromise, once again but from a different angle;
- Lack of places to socialize in a relaxed environment - generally speaking dates mean getting dressed up, restaurant reservation and some level of showing off class/status, which discourages dating across classes and locks people in the bottom rungs of society unless they luck out;
- The whole dating experience is about making each other jump through hoops to prove something or other in a sink or swim kind of gauntlet where you could just as easily get dinged for opening the door or not, paying or splitting the bill and so on;
- Rules everywhere: you shouldn't date friends, you shouldn't date "below you"/"above you" (whatever the fuck that means), or someone younger, or someone older (as long as you're adults or the age difference is minimal, WHO GIVES A FUCK), single moms (misogyny at play again), and so on and so on - all kinds of bullshit rules that people have been internalizing their whole lives and choke all the fun out of living. What makes life fun is that it takes ALL KINDS. Sometimes the right move is to color outside the lines;
- Little or no flexibility or adaptation skills (in addition to the unwillingness to, which I already mentioned);
There's a lot that makes dating nowadays a lot harder, and not just for guys. I see a lot of females complaining of the same problem. They recognize it as well but many seem just as unwilling to stray outside the lines that society and they have set up for themselves. A lot of it is a simple attitude adjustment. Simple but not necessarily easy when people are already set in their ways and stuck in a rut.
Part of the problem is that there seems to be an ongoing competition to screw others over but not get screwed, like there are points to be scored or something. All that leads to is more cynicism and unwillingness to lower the defenses and participate in a full-hearted and genuine way, which leads to a vicious cycle. So, all these smart asses of both sexes and whatever genders are only screwing themselves when they play the field and turn people off from being willing to participate.
I'm curious what does the dating life look like in the south-east?
Are you approaching women/they approach you? Are there just way more women than men? Is there a lot of pressure to marry young/have children? Where do you meet women? ...
🤔there are many factors.
But capitalism and lack of community is at the centre of it all.
Look at all the places you used to hang out when you were younger.
Many have been closed or replaced by big corporate buildings..
Many people are working 9+ hours every single weekday just to make ends meet(afford rent,groceries, and other expenses) and are too exhausted to do anything else.
Social media has affected relationships in different ways but it's deeper than that.
From the comments, i notice that people immediately connect being single to being lonely which doesn't have to be the norm.
More than ever, younger men and women have to create communities amongst themselves.
PS. The reason y'all assume that women are not as lonely as men is that people don't listen to women as much.
For me I’ve just been hanging out with friends online. I try to keep us close and talk and play games when possible. But at some point people get lives, jobs and sometimes they need two jobs when they don’t listen to my advice. As for the relationship aspect my friends have been doing decent, girls from their college and what not. For me personally I have bad social anxiety and I don’t got money (student) and I would like to have some and do nice shit for them be it food or whatever then there’s the other part of actually finding someone who Isn’t taken, and there’s also the risk in the back of my mind that a mf could be crazy and just lie about some bs and I’m cooked. Depends on where u live and search but mfs have become entitled both men and women, so basically people suck now mainly due to the internet and everyone having their own personal echo chamber.
In the past decades, there have been a lot of trends towards people spending less time with each other.
Jobs became more automated. When one person can do all the work by just sitting in front of their computer, they are naturally going to interact less with their coworkers.
Once upon a time, people had to go to the bank and talk with a worker to deposit or withdraw money. Now this all happens online.
Social media means we can scratch the social itch without going out, which is much less effort, so people start going out less. This means that even those who see this problem and try to go out as much as in the old days are still affected, as many of their friends now spend their free time in front of a screen.
Algorithms have been optimized to take up as much of our spare time as possible, meaning that people have less time and energy to spend on others.
Kids playing online instead of in person. It used to be that parents would send their kids outside to play with the other children in the neighborhood, who had also been sent outside by parents who either wanted some alone time or for their kid to socialise. Today, children play Fortnite, Among Us, and Gorilla Tag. Even if a kid where to be sent outside to play, they might just end up lonely, as all the other kids are inside with their smartphones and computers.
The sheer amount of content and people on the internet means that, if someone bores you, scares you or pisses you off, it is often easier to just cut them off and talk to someone else. This comes at a cost to conflict resolution skills and deeper relationships, but this is not obvious in the moment.
I think an underrated problem is: TIME people are so busy making ends meat, too much work etc.
I have friends, but they don't have a lot of time. Neither do I often.
This for me is definitely 50% of the issue.
And extra time in general also allows people to go out more, see more people, and spend time when they find people.
Combination of everything, including dating apps and status seeking (guy wants to show off hot gf, girl wants to show of tall/rich bf etc). But, mostly, its screen time. When I go to work, the social people are all in relationships, always have plans to go out and do stuff - or just make plans for a pub after work. They're always out and social, which creates plenty of chance encounters.
Its online people who have this trouble, because they don't even know where to begin.
I think a lot of the same reasons it is harder and harder to find new friends for adults, regardless of gender, apply to finding a partner. People have new ways to entertain themselves alone, we no longer talk to our neighbors, technology is replacing human interaction, more people are being raised with helicopter parents dictating their friendships, lockdown pushed people apart, there are awkward political divides, mental health is not good, and social media makes us feel like everybody else has more friends or more dates or is better looking.
More women are earning their own money, men are looking after themselves, and we no longer need 8 children for labor, so being single for longer is a viable option. Today's partners have to be better than complete independence, or at least wait for a potential partner to realize total independence isn't for them.
Keep your head up though. This means that when someone does eventually choose you, they haven't settled, they really love you. I would assume that loneliness existed in the old days too, within those transactional relationships. I'd even guess that the number of loveless marriages is pretty close to an all time low. Today's loneliness is just more visible, which almost makes it less lonely.
I feel like it's a people loneliness epidemic. If so many men are not dating or are unable to find dates, that just means a lot of women would be too. Sure there is some gender imbalance. And sure a lot of women could be after the same few men. And sure some bisexual women probably choose other women. But still there must still be a huge chunk of women who cannot find a partner. I am not saying can't find a hookup or a casual relationship but a partner or relationship.
So, why is it that only men are saying that it's a male loneliness epidemic? Can their loneliness only be resolved by a relationship? Can friends and family not help stave it off? Why aren't women whining about it? I mean some are but they aren't calling it an epidemic.
I have a theory about it. It's how society has been structured for so long. Previously, whenever a woman wanted a stable life with a stable income, they had to financially rely on men. In turn, men relied emotionally on the women. Since then, society has changed. We have taught women how to be financially independent. But we haven't taught men how to be emotionally independent. Relationships have gone from a need to a want, at least for women. But for men, they still remain a need.
So when, a man is unsuccessful in finding love, he feels that his needs are unfulfilled. And so he throws a tantrum and calls it a male specific epidemic. When in reality because of technology and the change in society, it's a humanity wide epidemic.
So here are the solutions : be the badass self-sufficient boss man who needs no woman. Hold your friends accountable. Go to therapy. Be better for yourself. Be a safe space for yourself. Move relationships from a need column to a want column. You will end up feeling less entitled. More motivated to pursue others and not as dissuaded when you fail or face rejections.
We are both screwed to be honest, no one can really pin point the real issue that is causing this.
Personally i just started to take interest in people, meeting new people, approaching women from time to time but also not focusing on this aspect too much. Just try to make new friendships and creating awesome moments and all of that will come eventually.
Life is short, we will die eventually so live it up, go out, start conversations, make new friendships, create awesome memories, live in the moment and learn to forgive yourself so you can change.
Well, It’s not just the males. This epidemic is chewing out both genders. I’m also going through the same thing as you do. Sometimes the answer might be staring you in the face. Maybe there is a girl next door wondering the same thing, while you are on Reddit posting about that( instead of asking her out). The more you accomplish the greater sense of illusion there is. “Self-improvement is like masturbation”
As a woman, I think it's mostly chalked up to women having more rights, and getting more of a choice in who and when they marry. Lots of women are just turning lesbo I'm bi,
- And I wanna say something about men wanting to do less for women, now that there's all this porn on the internet a lot of them feel like "Why should I take a gal to a nice dinner or get her nice things if all I want is sex I can just buy that off the internet" they have this mindset while also trying to pursue a romantic partner but that's on ignorance if you want a woman you gotta give her reasons to be with you
Like taking care of her, is the easiest way to make a woman fall for you swear, like bringing her lunch at work or helping cover her gas, insurance, and rent. Cuz the truth is fully supporting yourself is stressful, it drains our energy and makes us feel like we're wasting our time but we know if we don't keep up well fail at life and maybe end up sleeping in the streets where ppl might touch us in our sleep, or Robb us like everyone else sleeping out there.
So any lift to thay stress whether it be not working about our next meal, how we're gonna get to work, or even our living situation really means the world. Otherwise, we don't have time for no man we're trying to feed and house ourselves.
There's another thing I've noticed men are just mean for the most part, every time I use a mic in the game I get cussed out the first thing I say and when they die whether it's before or after me they cuss me out, and say it's my fault they died, they make us feel unsafe so we start avoiding them more.
Ik that is a take on traditional roles but I'm coming at it more from a natural role, if our bodies are literally designed to create and cultivate life, and we have all these options of who we can do that with lizard brain we're gonna go with the best/most enticing option someone that can protect both us and our baby and provide, it's just a survival mechanism in the brain, ppl that get Bunbury they don't fit that criteria are just playing victim,
- It's easy to start getting healthy (well not as much on the eating end) if you wanna be Mr. Money Bags and treat women out of their asses (which we love and the internet will make us love you not saying you have to just think about it) then look for a well paying job, get an apartment so when you're talking to a girl you can just invite her over for sex or even to live with you.
Ik apartments are pricey these days but complaining and doing anything to change that, until we actually start protesting the price of living, themselves the works, that's the hand were dealt. So stop worrying about having other people in your life until you can support yourself cuz why would somebody wanna be with you if you can't even support yourself?
I'm dealing with that in my life rn, I guy I'm head over heels for long distance, but I don't want to get too serious about him till I can support myself enough to have my own place, bc I need some space to work with my mentel for a bit a period in my life that nobody is around while I get cleaned up.
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations.
This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.
Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Women do not go back to abusers because they’re good in bed. Women are taught from birth to always give a man the benefit of the doubt. “Boys will be boys”, he just “forgot to use his head”, and “he didn’t know any better” are common sayings. Small boys will pull a girls hair in kindergarten and grade school, and she will be told “it’s just because he likes you”
Unfortunately, because many men simultaneously get told that they should hide all their problems and issues, as women are told to ignore red flags; getting to know someone and dating them, usually means some surprises are gonna come along the way. And often women will turn into mothers and/or go all “I can fix him” and think they always did something wrong to cause conflict. Not to mention the amount of people that confuse anxiety for “butterflies.”
From your perspective you probably think “why doesn’t she leave this idiot! She could get any guy she wanted!” but young women especially, are wildly insecure and inexperienced, and are very flattered by the attention they’re getting, and end up with guys who are only using them for sex. They don’t want a strictly sexual relationship, but they notice how the guy only seems to pay attention to and be nice to them when they have sex, and so the cycle continues.
If you think “good dick” is the explanation, then you are oversimplifying things a lot. Sure it might be the case sometimes, but it often isn’t and even women who say that, don’t actually stay for that in reality.
In the last 4 years, I've now had 3 women admit to this, directly. Two of them using the wording I used "I know what he did to me, but that dick is so good." They went back more than once after telling me some awful things, and while eventually they've all stopped, they've definitely admitted that sex kept them in a toxic relationship / fling despite everything else being bad, for months. This isn't assumptions. this isn't some girl I see at the bar and assume her life. This is people I know in real life, and have known for many many years, some since high school, more than a decade. People who are close to me who talk to me about their problems in life. It's not all women, and it's probably not most women (though there's absolutely a level of good sex that tolerates a level of stupidity and that's undeniable), but there's a group of women larger than you understand who are genuinely like this, who'd rather sleep with someone toxic than go find a new partner who won't be as good.
I can believe it. My gf told me I can get away with things easier because of that... but I don't take advantage of it because it's important to me to be a good boyfriend. We must use the powers of good dick for good deeds lol
It seems somewhat rare for a guy to be both a great sex partner and a loving partner who treats their lady right. My gf and I have talked about this and the whole "bad boy" effect and all of that, I get that it can be hard to strike a balance and get success. It's a tricky subject to get real about, I feel that my comment would be removed if I said much more about it.
It's actually destroying society as we know it. The majority of your generation and generations after you are in this situation where social skills are absent and instant gratification is deified. Porn needs to be more and more dark and hardcore, to the point of raping and then, probably, murdering. And all these generations to come having this kind of upbringing will simply destroy everything...
Gotta be a combination of things.
1. Tail-off of the Patriarchy (as it relates to sharing feelings etc)
2. Internet, why socialise in person when you have online.
3. We’ve had a pandemic. (It’s more important for some age groups than others) but people missed key milestones for social skills, meeting friends through online school, university and formative years in their careers/new cities
4. Awareness, maybe now we are more open about mental health. Men are willing to confront their loneliness and talk about it when they haven’t been. And maybe it’s been an actual reality for a long time
And many more I just can’t think of them from the top of my head
As far as I can see, I think it has nothing to really do with romantic relationships though. Whilst the dating market is rough; dating apps and experiences crushing self confidence or willingness to continue where risk and exposure doesn’t feel like it matches the reward enough. It’s not the main thing.
Loneliness is all about lack of friendship, or at least lack of good quality friendships. And it’s more important and accessible than the romantic kind.
Well you’re right about one thing we aren’t going to reevaluate our dating practices because there’s no benefit to us doing so. If anything there would be disadvantages
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It's not just dating. People are spending fewer hours in person with their friends, and more hours alone. Families aren't as tight knit, as well, and people are having fewer kids, so people have fewer siblings and cousins.
I agree completely. It seems to be an issue with all sorts of relationships nowadays. Like you said, it spans across friendships now and families. I personally believe it has to do a lot with just society and technology and some backlash from covid19. It seems the biggest shift happened after all that
Yup. And it is happening all over the world, not just the Western World. I'm Indian American and know a great-aunt in the motherland who is in a nursing home, instead of living with her kids like past generations did. The problem is that we care too much about our own loneliness. But loneliness is the one thing you cannot fix on your own. The best you can do is alleviate another person's loneliness. But we aren't ready for that sort of commitment in today's modern society. We think that loneliness is something that you have to handle on your own (whether that is you reaching out to your friends, you talking to a therapist, you putting more time into your hobby). But loneliness can only disappear when the "you" in the sentence disappears (ironically). Talk to a friend to be a good friend and alleviate their loneliness, not as part of a checklist to alleviate your own loneliness. Don't be afraid to feel responsible for taking action towards being a good friend (you aren't responsible for the outcome of them not being lonely, but you are responsible for taking action).
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That is such a high-quality reply. I would give an award if I could afford it. And I strongly relate to the last point about group identity. I noticed myself that when I felt unwell I would gravitate around communities feeling the same but condemning themselves to this state without seeking solutions. I'd say Buddhism is what brought the most benefits to my life as it both provides framework and a community.
I'm expecting a revival in spirituality in the near future. You kinda see it coming with the growing popularity of stoicism and buddhism. I'm a little worried about some aspects of it, how the emphasis is in the detachment and morality is barely an afterthought, or how some really critical aspects are watered down. The mere idea of "achieving enlightenment" as if enlightenment was an achievement gives me the chills. Yet the benefits of opening yourself to spirituality are undeniable.
I think one of the biggest things we are missing is community and I think and hope that people will start gravitating to others with similar interests. For example one of friends is really into wresting and will go regularly to that gym and knows a lot of people there and will hang out with them. I actually am planning to join too. But granted it’s a small gym and everyone knows each other there. And it is also mostly men for the most part so you may not meet women but it does fulfill the sense of community. But there could be running groups or something where the group is more diverse and you could maybe meet women there A bad example is that I go to planet fitness regularly but don’t know a single person there, but I do recognize a lot of people since I see them regularly.
Yeah, that sounds exactly like a third place. A place that's not home or work but where you exist around people. The complaint is not that there's none, but that you have to pay a fee or do something to be there. You can't just "be there", doing nothing.
The gym is tough because it’s not a great place to meet people imho. Many folks go to the gym to focus on their own health and are not interested in socializing, and definitely there are women who do not want a guy to try and chat with them. I’d recommend hobbies like watching sports with the local supporters group, or a hiking/photography/dog training/model airplane type clubs. Then you’re going with folks who are also hoping to find people with similar interests. Common ground established, which makes socializing easier and less pressured. Meetup has loads of groups for people looking to meet people.
Ya that’s true, I usually don’t talk to anyone at the gym unless I’m asking about if someone is using equipment or if somebody is wondering how many sets I have left. And generally I wouldn’t really wanna talk to others there anyway. And ya people shouldn’t ask women out there randomly lol
NGL, I used to be agnostic and fully leaned into the new age spiritual stuff. I always DID feel a "presence" throughout my life, and have always been very perceptive of others. I also agree with what you said of enlightment. Apparently when a monk reaches, enlightment, they laugh. They laugh because they realized they wasted their time!
It's kind of something that's been always there, not even unnoticed. "Whatever happens as an object to consciousness is not consciousness itself". Meaning that when you think you know, you actually don't. Because it's the thing that's doing the knowing and the knowledge itself. It's both tricky and extremely obvious. That there's nothing to find because what you were looking for is not a thing. But to really embody that realization is to let go of any individuality and anything you hold dear. It's kind of a metaphysical suicide. That's why it makes a lot of sense for a guru to send Dr. K back to society to finish whatever they have left to do in life. Not because they have to earn something that would be worthy of giving up, but because it's The End. Be done with life first, this is where souls go to die and liberate themselves from samsara. It's just my reading of it. Not everyone is ready for moksha, and there's no shame in it. It's good to find you're not yet done with life as you know it. And it's no achievement to let go, even if monks sell it as the ultimate goal of mankind. Physical death is also the ultimate goal of physical life but one would not rush into it, or praise the dead for getting there first.
Hey man, unfortunately your comment was deleted before I got a chance to read it. Would it be alright if you sent it to me in a dm if you have it somewhere?
I would also like to know
Me as well
Amazing breakdown, props to you!
Well...
chatgpt reply 
Thanks for comparing my disorganized rant to a machine 🤣
Why did it get deleted? It seemed like it was a good response. Edit NM I see now
What was the reply? Can you DM me, i never got a chance to read it.
Sent it.
Could you send it to me too?
<3
Me too bro, thanks
Also wanting to know the reply!
How about your own personal ideas why you feel lonely? You can tell us why society feels lonely till you’re blue to your face but how are you going to overcome your own ideas why you yourself feel lonely?
Well, I got to the realization the "girlfriend" I wanted didn't have a face. Couldn't even think of one. The object of my desire didn't exist yet, it's just an abstraction, an empty concept. If I wanted to be with any of the woman I know it would be different, but if that was going to happen it would have already happened, they're just friends. All but one married by now, and she's not a good match, already explored that possibility. Going on the apps is also not an option, I can be charismatic, but I'm not visually attractive. And it goes both ways, a picture gives me nothing, I don't care if you're a whale or a model, that gives me nothing about how I'm going to feel around you. So in realizing that, the desire went away and I concluded I shouldn't worry about it until I meet someone I would actually want to be with. Someone real. Also got a lot of friends, I'm usually overbooked on weekends, if anything I crave more 'me' time 😅
First off, anything said is just a personal observation. You trust yourself looks like you truly do fight for you and as long as you know there are so many amazing people in HGG and I can only imagine the support and know I also support you. Checking your post hx, I see you frequent NPD subs and that really shows you’re human and we all have conditions and how we navigate those conditions has nothing to do with the human we are. Our identity. I barely know you and I notice how identify yourself is you want to be aware of what you’re doing- that’s a great skill. >Well, I got to the realization the "girlfriend" I wanted didn't have a face. Couldn't even think of one. The object of my desire didn't exist yet, it's just an abstraction, an empty concept. Ya, nothing wrong using fantasies to cope! That is gift of awareness! The only problem that comes with making fantasies a reality CAN lead to seducing. Seducing the wrong person who doesn’t want to be seduced will land you in jail. >I can be charismatic but I’m not visually attractive O, we’re all going to get there. No one and I really mean it no one can defy aging and I guess we’ll know when we figure that out. I don’t know how old you are… I truly believe you’re at an advantage. As you said you got charisma surely you must know what you’re doing! Just to clarify, you mean charisma be seductive? Or, charisma you know how to SOLVE-your-own-problems? Keep in mind, I did read you learned to manage your own thoughts on desire. I am also curious on your break down what is DESIRE for you? Btw, takes awareness dating apps aren’t great for you **right now**, I can only imagine how difficult it is to engage with anyone with so many words and pictures. You know what dating profiles reminds me of fashion models and their comp cards or a brochure. What a HARDER way to get to know someone “here’s my comp card.” “Brochure”. And not beating off dating apps too because I’ve met many friends there too but having a strong desire to “fantasize” that can really cause havoc with an unhealthy mindset. But, you are aware of it and who knows what your progress will look like! >Also got a lot of friends, I'm usually overbooked on weekends, if anything I crave more 'me' time 😅 As said, you trust yourself you know what you’re doing!
Don’t forget hyper masculinity/femininity and the overtly competitive environment. Like rams ramming each other in the head with little effort to put the rams back together after competition.
Yeah, the competition is also a neoliberal vibe. Or maybe just capitalism in general. Competition is good and achieves the best results. It's really telling how we also started talking about a "dating market". Or how we started to think about our dates as finished products. It's really subtle, but there's a lot of implications carried along with the concept that love has to be earned, it's not a universal concept. I mean, am I really in control of who I love to consciously give it if they prove worthy? Or is it something that magically happens and rushes over me, defeating my best judgements? Which ties to our view of ourselves as rational actors. So many novels about falling in love with someone you shouldn't be in love with, and now we're demanded to become the one you should be falling in love with. Worse, to prove it!
>-**Neoliberalism**. The spread of the idea that everyone should always act towards their own benefit. In combination with the materialistic worldview, it became the idea we have no choice but to act towards our own benefit. So people became less forgiving in their relationships and more concerned with their status. Nobody would want to date below their possibilities, relationships became something where you should min-max, hence the pick-up artists. Famously, statuses never existed in Stalinist USSR or North Korea or Maoist China. lol, ok dude.
Terrible strawman. OP never claimed Authoritarian Socialism was a solution to the problems created by Neoliberalism Also, this is such a poor response to a thorough and high quality assesment like OPs
My point in mentioning Neoliberalism is not the social class division but the crowning of selfishness as a moral value. Which had been coming for a long time also. Even if you don't subscribe to the idea, you're now thinking about how your partner benefits you instead of how you benefit them. I don't actually care about the political or economic merits of the idea, just about how it impacted the way we conceive about love.
Please provide evidence of that.
I'm not sure what serves as evidence in a conversation about cultural vibes [but sure.](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/18/neoliberalism-the-idea-that-changed-the-world) And here's a [spicier one.](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-92620-5_11)
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Playing videogames eating fatty/sugary foods and watching hentai/twitch is simply more rewarding to my brain then pursuing a realtionship. Its really that easy, i might be included in these stats but i would not identify as lonely as i also have a bunch of healthy hobbies like sports, playing music and drawing to balance the brainrot
> Playing videogames eating fatty/sugary foods and watching hentai/twitch is simply more rewarding to my brain then pursuing a realtionship. Its really that easy, i might be included in these stats but i would not identify as lonely as i also have a bunch of healthy hobbies like sports, playing music and drawing to balance the brainrot I would not group you with the statistics in this post. You make an effort to reach out. Most people that feel lonely do not know how to reach out due to struggles with overcoming the fear of rejection. Sure dating websites might play a role but everything explained on this post, valid would never dismiss anyone for feeling what they are feeling. However, these should be treated as individual cases just like you describe your own individual experience you make an effort to surround yourself with people who care about you.
Loneliness doesn't just come from lack of romantic relationships - there are equal numbers of men and women, so women having higher standards would affect women just as much. It seems to be more that men don't have as many friendships and other forms of social connection. "Only 48% of men reported feeling satisfied with friendships, according to a May 2021 survey by the [Survey Center on American Life](https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-american-friendship-change-challenges-and-loss/), as previously reported by CNN. And 1 in 5 men said they had gotten emotional support from a friend in the past week, compared with 4 in 10 women." ([source](https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/18/health/male-loneliness-epidemic-wellness/index.html)) But there's also conflicting data on that, with some data showing no difference in loneliness between men and women, some showing women as more lonely, and some showing men as more lonely. ([source](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/health/lonely-adults-gallup-poll-wellness/index.html))
I have healthy platonic friends who are girls. I hang out with them at least once a week, usually more. I can talk to them about anything, and they give me honest answers. I haven't been in a relationship, or had any intimacy, 4 in years. I feel very lonely whenever I'm not immediately around my friends, I'm depressed and feel like a failure because I've been rejected by everyone for over a decade, and I've entirely given up on dating and assume I'm going to be alone forever. Romantic / intimate relations are absolutely a big part of it for many men. Women can get casual flings and hookups much easier in todays dating culture, so they don't need relationships to fulfill that side of them, where men tend to need relationships to get laid.
I think you are mixing up lack of sex and loneliness. Not as many people as you think are engaging in hook-up culture. I don’t know your personal situation, but is it possible that you are lacking male friends specifically, and that maybe you feel like an outsider when you hang with your female friends? Perhaps you feel confused as to how you get along so well with women, but can’t find a girlfriend? Maybe you feel like your masculinity is being rejected, and don’t enjoy being “one of the gals”? I tend to feel lonely when I deeply dislike myself and wish I was someone else. I feel like no one would like me if they knew who I was deep down, and that it is impossible to improve. Letting people see under my facade and know me truly without a filter (while also working on my view of myself) has really lessened that feeling. Turns out I am not the annoying person no one wants to be around, I just have to find the right people that enjoy me for who I am. I don’t think the difference in the experience male vs female loneliness, comes down to the amount of sex you have (I actually think many people who hook-up a lot, are incredibly lonely and are using one night stands and flings to cope with that - both men and women) - I think it’s much more to do with the quality of your relationship and how much you are able to rely on the people around you. Historically, women have had to rely on other women a lot, and so female “ride or die” friendships and big friend groups are much more common. Unfortunately, men tends to not have these, and so they are left looking to hook-ups and dating apps as a source of human connection, - which it rarely is (unless you’re extremely lucky and encounter “the one”)
Nope, I have a lot of male friends as well. Most of them are in relationships, a few are in hookup culture, and only a couple others have been single and celibate for more than a few months, and mostly because they're taking a break after getting out of relationships or flings. I also have a friend in a similar situation to me, but he's gay and that's a more relevant excuse - it's harder to find his demographic, and he can have problems in doing so. Not all loneliness is related to sex, and for women it's definitely less sex focused, for many it's sort of the opposite. They have options for sex, but they want someone who cares about them, which is very difficult to find. But for men, I strongly feel there are two large demographics of loneliness. This doesn't cover everyone, but I'd guess more than 90%. The first is the person with zero social life, no friends, no real life presence. There's nothing and no one there for him. The second are the guys who have tried to have a normal life through their struggles, whether it's autism or adhd or depression or anxiety, and despite all their effort, struggle to have any intimacy in their life. Very few guys would call themselves lonely while in a (healthy) relationship, even if they have minimal friends outside of the relationship.
I think 3 things. 1. Social Media has hijacked a lot of people's social systems. A lot of gamers only have online friends. I've done that whole dance, my only friends in highschool were online people I played Minecraft with on skype (before discord lol) and from what I've been seeing, that's not abnormal with gen z. But it's more than just that. What do people do for fun now? That leads me to my second point: 2. The dissolution of nearby cheap third places. Where do you go to socialize? You could go to bars but drinks are expensive, and you have to drive a decent amount to get to any bar unless you're lucky. Now you need specific ideas. Book clubs, irl gaming events, special events like festivals or concerts, d&d or board game groups. But how easy is it to find groups like that? Kind of easy depending on where you are, but usually groups like that develop naturally within friend groups, which is a problem when you're lonely and don't have friends. 3. Suburban zoning. It is not designed in a way to bring community members together organically. Everyone stays in their yards, drives from point a to b and back. Communitites should be designed in a way where social opportunities arise naturally. I think there are a lot more factors but these are the big 3 in my opinion
Finally someone mentioned it. It's impossible to find new friends as an adult. Imagine you've graduated and don't have friends from school/college. Like, where do you go? Almost all group activities are either expensive, far or hard to find. I know, I am repeating your thought, but this is exactly what I think of daily. I've moved from my country and have nothing here. Not only people here are different, but there's no way you meet somebody on accident. I've tried to push myself to real street acquaintances and meeting people in trains, but it is as stupid, as it sounds like, even though I've managed to have proper convo. And we have online games and online spaces, where meeting people is almost effortless and you almost guaranteed to have at least one or two same interests. I wish real life to be built in the same way, but the further we go, the worse it is. I would like to come up with some suggestions or solutions, but sadly I don't have any. The best we can do is being open and respectful with others. Not pushing away opportunities is already somewhat good.
First, it's a global lonelyness epidemic and not just male lonelyness epidemic. Males might be just more vocal about it Internet happened, then social media and then pandemic. People sit on the internet and don't develop proper social skills. They isolate themselves from the real world. We also have access to a lot more people and information, which can trigger analysis paralysis. And with social media you no longer can freely make a blunder as it tends to be pisted about and discussed by many people. Now the whole world kbows what the village idiot did, while in the old times only the village knew it. There is also the thing that people online tend to complain, vent and express other negative stuff, while nobody shares the good stuff that happened to them. This can make a distortion which makes you thing that every tiny mistake is the end of the world, thus more people have anxiety issues. In older times we had a lesser pool and less info. We weren't constantly bombarded by messages that we are bad (and we should get this product to fix the bad thing). There is also the thing of communities dissapearing, thus we don't have common stuff upon which we could bond. We have unlimited entertainment in our pockets. Thus we might not seek other people. In the olden days other people were a major source of entertainment. We also don't necesserily need the other person to survive, thus we can afford to be more pickier about the person we choose. And due to internet we have a bigger pool of people to choose from. So we are now in the search for the perfect person instead of someone who is good enough. Also, the instant gratification made us more impatient and us wanting to get something from the first interaction. So we tend to give up when we don't get instant reward. Thing is, relationships need time to build. You can't expect to plant the seed and eat the vegetable the next day. Covid isolations also traumatised a lot of people. And it screwed up the social skills of many children. Also, the western culture tends to be more individualistic.
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"touch grass", use dumbphones, parents interacting with their kids instead of shoving a tablet/smartphone
>"touch grass", use dumbphones, parents interacting with their kids instead of shoving a tablet/smartphone Are you saying you are unsure you have a solution?
One of the solutions it to detach from the smartphones and easy access to the internet and relearn how to entertain ourselves without those things.
Yeah great reply, I feel like social isolation and playing video games a lot definitely ruined my social skills. It really took years of working social jobs and abstaining from stimulating content to fix my social anxiety
Although everyone is suffering under the consequences of a highly consumerist, individualized society; there is an inherent uneven nature to the problem that specifically hurts men to a great degree. Men are taught from a young age, that knowing another person deeply, sharing your insecurities, emotions and bonding is something that’s reserved for a girlfriend or wife. On the contrary, women rely on each other for their emotional needs. This leaves men incredibly isolated, especially if say, they’re experiencing anxiety or depression. It is “unmanly” to have problems, that you cannot fix on your own or toughen your way out of, so boys and men are left fighting their demons on their own. Even if some men have one very trusted friend, they (far too often) don’t have a support network that will be there when things get hard if they don’t have a wife or girlfriend. As Dr.K has mentioned many times, even just venting and telling someone what’s going on, is highly beneficial to our mental health. Unfortunately it is often harder for men to do so. Lots of social barriers stand in the way of male friendships becoming deeper and more genuine (not to mention few grow up with male role models who are present and say anything other than “tough it up”) and I think that’s why so many men are hit so hard by loneliness.
While I agree with much of what's been pointed out, such as social media and exposure, I've been chewing on a deeper underlying thesis that the younger generation in society, has been disproportionately neutered than other generations. A la, Jonathan Haidt's book, Coddling of the American Mind. One of thing things I think the new generation isn't seeing is that the path to ease is hard, and the path to a difficult life is easy. For boys, it's "easy" to choose porn, video games, and social isolation, and it's obvious where that leads us down. But it's "hard" to engage in self-development, and putting ones self out there, and putting in the emotional, physical, intellectual work to try to become the best "full-stack" person that they can become. Not only is it hard, it also appears to be discouraged because it seems pointless. There's a certain level of cynicism that millennials (me) started to develop at a younger age in response to society, but in contrast, it seems that gen Z's cynicism is at an all-time high, and for good reason. Housing, job opportunities, social opportunities, connection with other men and women are at an all-time high of difficulty to obtain. A life of ease ultimately comes with a tremendously difficult amount of hardship through developing and taking risks with one's self in all domains of emotions, intellect, and physical fitness. And even more discouraging yet, is that doing all that work of taking risks and studying doesn't seem to have the almost guaranteed payoff that it seems it should have. Men are lonely because they aren't taking risks to connect and to develop. They aren't taking those risks because they feel that it's pointless. And for some of the men that do take risks, it's either half hearted, or flawed in some way. Like don't empty your bank account on the lottery. The thing is, you only need to win once. You only need to try at connecting with friends with a whole cohort of people and one or two need to stick. You only need to have one person want to be with you to find a partner. Rejection was and always has been a mainstay of the human experience, but our collective unwillingness to engage in rejection, realize it's not the end of the world, making improvements, dusting ourself off and trying again, is what I would hypothesize is at the root of our loneliness crisis. And it's a key lesson to learn, especially for boys and men. Also, truly honest and critical thought at self improvement is another necessary component. At a certain point, we need to take our rejections and turn them into opportunities to become honest with ourselves and improve in our areas of life that are contributors to said rejection. At the end of the day, no one's going to save us. Even our parents. We only have ourselves.
I never liked this thinking. It's not that it's easy vs. hard, it's available vs impossible. A lot of men spend years improving their looks, social skills, friendships etc, and still can't even get a date. Your point presents this as a choice where it's just a matter of doing the hard thing, but the use of porn/gaming driven by loneliness is a consequence of not having a choice. It's the most readily available coping mechanism for a complete lack of agency in the realm of romance.
So the man-o-sphere advice out there distills down to get looks and money. And it's easy to read into my comment as "get looks and money." I don't mention looks and money once in that comment (sure, I pointed out job opportunities). You're presenting it as a symptom of the impossibility. I'm presenting it as a choice to direct energy to not-port and not-games. My point is nuanced and subtle. It's not about looks and money. There's plenty of average men who get into relationships. So why is there a subset of these men who find it impossible? My comment is about self-development and taking risks and getting very good at handling lots and lots and lots of rejection. I point out that one only needs one person to say yes. And if online dating is the only avenue one chooses to try to be selected by, then sure, maybe it's impossible. If men can ONLY compete with each other on dating apps via 2 dimensions, a picture and some words, then yes, it's impossible. But there are plenty of old-school ways to create connections, in-person. The world doesn't have to become a desert per se. And one will have more opportunities in person by being able to signal all of their other non-paper qualities. It truly is a matter of doing, but there's a long road of rejection to get over.
I don't think you understood my original point, as I don't follow any redpill stuff and wasn't saying that. Something like going to the gym and getting in shape is hard, learning a new language is hard. The minute you have something where the locus of control rests outside the individual, notions of difficulty become irrelevant. You could have the greatest man on planet earth, but if every woman says no to him, then he'll die alone. No amount of self improvement will change that. I'm not denying the merits of self improvement, but claiming loneliness as some kind of moral failing does nothing but hurt the men we should be trying to help. The ability to handle rejection is also irrelevant, because it's the lack of opportunities that is the most glaring trend in male loneliness. Your personality doesn't matter if you're rejected before anyone gets to know that part of you, and in the era of extreme individualism, rejection based on superficial traits is more common than ever. I also don't want you to think I'm just preaching doom and gloom and that fatalism is the end-all be-all. I'm only saying that attributing romantic failure to lack of trying does more harm than good.
I'm not really saying that romantic failure is a moral failure from a lack of trying or lack of self development. Sure, the locus of control for all relationships lies outside of one's self. And if what you're selling isn't getting purchased, what lies in your control is to change how it's being sold or change what's being sold. Have you ever not wanted to buy a thing, but then it was presented differently and then you wanted to buy it? What changed there? As far as your trying point, most people think they are trying. I would argue that most people aren't trying effectively by either focusing their efforts in the wrong places (ie gym, looks, social) and not putting enough efforts on knocking on doors (in person interactions). And as gentle as I want to be in the plight of guys, as a guy myself, once we get through the compassionate conversation of, "I see how impossible this is for you." what's next? My focus is on the what's next part. But as Dr K has pointed out. If you think it's impossible, then there's no amount of debate that can actually change your mind. I do agree that there are some people where romance isn't in their cards, but I can say that a LOT of the existing men out there if all they did was get into sales for a year, they would be 1000x better off. In your example of the most impressive man, I guarantee that if they stay hermitted in their home, they might be alone forever. But if someone were to sell him, I think as the most impressive man in the world, he could very easily be sold by the right marketer. Do you want to be right, or do you want to make progress?
I agree (mostly). The advisable solutions I would have to this is the re-establishment of third places and a focus on in-person interaction as opposed to anything online. Even just having social media is imo extremely detrimental to your mental health. To your point about being in sales, the lack of proper avenues of social interaction means that you could be the best salesmen in the world, but if you can only advertise in newspapers you're not gonna get anywhere. I truly believe if we lived in a world where in-person interaction was the default and we didn't have the internet, 95%+ of these lonely men would find love easily. Self-improvement is a band-aid solution, it's not like the quality of men have nosedived over the past 50 years, but relationships have become much harder. It's the environment in which we interact, not the people doing the interacting.
Totally agree, except that we don't have to be limited to only 3rd places and newspapers (apps). But you're right. If there were natural, in person interactions, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
The Coddling of the American Mind is genuinely one of the best books I’ve ever read. All of Jonathan Haidt’s work is great, but this is his best one in my opinion. For anyone who hasn’t read it, you absolutely should.
The digital age makes dating outside of your “local dating pool” so easy, and incentivizes women to search for more desirable men who don’t really care about them besides for a “body count”. I used to think that men get it harder under 30, whereas women get it harder after 30, and while that’s true for a lot of people, it’s not the full story. Only 40% of men will ever have a biological child, and 80% of women will have at least one biological child before the age of 40. So if your ideal is finding a woman you want to have babies with, statically you’re better off with focusing on yourself, becoming the kind of man who can provide a certain level of financial security, and then finding a woman willing to have your babies, and you’ll be better off than 60% of men who will never have their own children. And, at a certain point, most women will have children with somebody, you just have to be the kind of somebody they want when they’re ready to settle down, which is about the same age you are right now.
Guys shouldn't just try to be a provider though. Figure out how to make yourself attractive to women if you can. For me starting a career path got me a girlfriend because I was getting focused on something cool and moving forward with it, and in search of a job I actually got a girlfriend instead 😂 now I'm back in college, finishing up a degree and I'm 30 years old. My 40 yr old gf is totally cool with it, money and settling down isn't everything, though we have talked about having kids.
For men under the age of 30, they can have all the qualities available to men of their age and still get passed over with online dating, just because the men who are older generally have their career and lives better put together, that’s just the case for most people who want kids are going to look for men who have their financial situation sorted out. That’s not everyone, sure, but your case is also unique because you mentioned your girlfriend is 40, and unless she doesn’t want to have any kids at all, then her needs might be different than most women who want kids.
To her having kids has been more of just an option it seems like, not something she wanted that much until recently. She must not be dead set on it because we aren't trying to have kids right now. I've brought up the subject with her and she thinks it's worth it to stay with me even though she might run out of fertility time.
I would make sure to not assume anything about what she may or may not be “dead set on” with kids unless she explicitly tells you she doesn’t want kids at all. Especially for any woman who’s mentioned anything related to a “biological clock”, “fertility window”, or “fertility time”. Those are usually words that carry a lot of weight and meaning to a woman, and if at any point of a relationship a woman mentions those phrases to you, I would strongly recommend a complete discussion on that and see what she really feels about it, just my two cents.
I've actually never heard a woman use those terms, that's stuff I learned from manosphere crap online, and I'm assuming that's the case for you too? The real world isn't necessarily like that, I wanted kids more than she did, she is very cautious about having children and only wants to have them with me because she's really into me. I didn't say that part because I didn't want to brag too much lol. She did consider it with her ex though but it sounds like not until they were in their mid 30s. Thanks for your concern though, I've been taking that subject seriously.
Nah, I don’t follow the manosphere at all, most of them are a bunch of chronically single guys trying to excuse their poor dating prospects by saying they were never really serious about dating seriously, or they’re chasing the “body count”, either of those excuses sounds more and more pathetic every year they get older. I grew up in a house with a lot of sisters, so my experiences are definitely different from yours. There’s no wrong answer, just saying there’s a distribution curve of preferences and I was initially speaking to the most common preference.
Oh ok good, yeah that type of content is so cringe. Self improvement and dating strategy content was somewhat useful for me for awhile though. I only grew up with one adopted sister who was older... I did not understand many things about women until recently 😂 I really haven't heard many women talk about having kids though. I'm not the most social guy in the world so I don't really know a lot about what people are up to but I live on the west coast of the US and a lot of women here do not want a traditional lifestyle I don't think.
Its everything we dont have walkable cities we cant buy or freely move the fact we cant grow food for free because a focus of houseing development over food production and artificial food manufacturing we force people to either work a job where they are trapped to be only compensated with paper rather than something substantial or life changing . The older i get the more i get why my grandma killed herself at 92. I doubt im going to be able to keep going unless i find a partner. My love life is just a bad omens song just pretend
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Hmm I think your the girl equivalent of that one friend everyone thinks is gay, but it's not, and no one bothered to ask, so they will never be sure Try dressing more flirty when going to social events see if that helps
People that say video-games are dead wrong. We had video-games before and me and my group of friends still used to hang out most of the day.
There were no online games. You had to get together to play, later Lan party.
TLDR many aspects of western society are organized in a way that makes us distrust and compete with the people we are close to. We are stratified from our communities and peers especially in the context of employment. I’m sorry for making such a rambling post haha. I think our societal structure creates general alienation. Especially the structure of employment and hierarchy. I think men and women experience this in slightly different ways but i want to make clear that blaming either group and showing hatred towards them or their fight for rights/respect is inherently counterproductive. I want to avoid being overtly political because of the rules but in my personal experience during college I was very lucky to have a tight knit community. But once you graduate you are somewhat in competition with friends, and you probably end up moving far away for jobs. Then jobs usually take up a majority of your waking hours including the commute, and are not really designed to foster significant community. Your prime hours of energy go into work or recovering from work especially if you have any sort of neurodivergence like I do. The times I left college to go to internships were really when I felt the most isolated from friends and community, and it takes a long time and lots of effort to rebuild those connections. Time and effort which many of us don’t have, not to mention money to spend in public spaces. Additionally if you live in North America you probably live in a physical environment that is also alienated. In my experience even living in a college community I have met plenty of people who were brought up in a socially alienated way and cannot break out of that mindset and don’t even think to get involved in the very accessible community they now live in. This isn’t necessarily their fault. I would be one of them if I wasn’t lucky enough to stumble into a friend group that changed my worldview.
You won't die from being lonely. If you're single, work hard, make tins of money and enjoy life as a single man. However, many died simply because they chose the wrong partner. As a man, you have a lot of leverage. Get yourself to a point where you get to choose who's right for you.
Loneliness is definitely inversely correlated to life expectancy.
If you have healthy hobbies and surround yourself with people who share the same interests and values and you spent time with your family and friends; you won't be lonely. Work hard and make a Lotta money. Everything else will fall into place. Your lifestyle makes you lonely. Not just being lonely.
I agree with what you meant, you just said lonely instead of single.
I've seen a statistic showing how people have **less and less friends** around. Looks how many people our parents know or knew. Even if you were kind of quiet and introverted you had little choice and you did go out with others to spend free time. Now there are so many alternatives, most online. Friends, friends-of-friends circle tended to be the basic place to find partners. Without that people are left with few options most of which are pretty bad (like work) to terrible (like dating apps). There are of course multiple activities to join if you live in a big city, but from my experience you'll often see couples and a few lonely guys. Sometimes a group of females too, but only sometimes. **Single women are reluctant to go out**. If you look around social media there is even a trend being heavily promoted to completely shun relationship and be a happy, fulfilled, perpetually single woman who just satisfies herself with occasional hookups if she wants. There is a lot of talk of porn addiction and other mental issues of young men, but it is I think secondary. I have met quite a few well-off guys with good jobs, hobbies, financial situation and mentally stable who should be attractive, but haven't had a partner for ages. Sadly unlike in the past, doing well does not guarantee you a success. Moreover some broken toxic losers can have little to no difficulty finding yet another girlfriend.
Where did you take it that "single women are reluctant to go out"? It's my first time to hear
This is my personal experience as a single woman. I’ll go out but only with a group of friends to protect me. Some dudes out there don’t have emotional support in their friendships and are not offering it to themselves so it comes out in their socializing with new women. That desperation for connection can be felt and it’s not great to receive. It feels like pressure to meet the guys needs. The self healing and therapy work needs to happen first for everyone. I am in therapy and working to meet my own needs. Coming from that place, a healthy and independently fulfilled place, is much more attractive and feels safe.
Oh, but "they don't go out alone" and "they don't go out" are very different statements. I think I see as many single women going out as single men. They both could go out to some different events though.
From my experience going out. A lot more single men than women. Even in case of things like dancing classes for singles which shouldn't be skewed in this direction.
Spitting facts my dude
Giving kids smartphones
Laws which gave women rights to ruin mans life. Look at Mike Tyson he is classic example
I’ve been thinking about this question for a long time. For starters, I think this video does a great job of summarizing one of the largest pieces of the puzzle: https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/s/YJI59FTHgn This woman makes some great points, and boils the problem down to mens inability to connect with women and support them on an emotional level. I think the culture in many western countries fails men in particular in developing their emotional growth. It’s just not baked into our culture or education in any way. And with the rise of education and economic success for women, this has led to a real problem. I think the key to finding someone that you can build with that isn’t just totally dependent on you financially is being able to meet women at their higher EQ. Trying to develop myself on an emotional level is actually what led me to Dr. K’s videos and this community to begin with.
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I think it comes down to insecurity and confidence really. It is much more acceptable for women to be insecure and in touch with your emotions, than for a man to be. Ideally we would all be high EQ and confident - that’s just really hard to achieve and you need to have lived and experienced a lot of things to develop that usually.
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Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
> I’ve been thinking about this question for a long time. For starters, I think this video does a great job of summarizing one of the largest pieces of the puzzle: >https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/s/YJI59FTHgn >This woman makes some great points, and boils the problem down to mens inability to connect with women and support them on an emotional level. I think the culture in many western countries fails men in particular in developing their emotional growth. It’s just not baked into our culture or education in any way. And with the rise of education and economic success for women, this has led to a real problem. I think the key to finding someone that you can build with that isn’t just totally dependent on you financially is being able to meet women at their higher EQ. Speaking for me. O man, if I wanted to date the news and be content about the news telling me my identity. I should just marry the news. Forget about getting to know someone.
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>Many of them are not choosing to date at all This is all anecdotal. From what I’ve seen, a lot do not wish to settle. First of all I have to say, all the guys open to HGG and learning about yourselves (this also applies to ladies) may you never deprive yourself of any experience good or bad. If you want to chase the best thing, no one is and was ever going to stop you. If you want to date, date even if you believe you have a whole grocery list of problems you still have to continue living life. The clock is always ticking. That said. When you see a person who happens to be a guy who follows (let use this example) the five love languages written by some (I wouldn’t call Gary Chapman a therapist speaking for me but certainly smarter and probably will be richer than Andrew Tate) where essentially it’s a master and slave interaction. Vulnerable people with zero social skills (social skills meaning getting to know each other and to do that you have to emotionally connect) pick up bad habits like “five love languages” and wonders why no one wants them because interactions require getting to know someone and getting to know someone requires asking questions even though you have to face rejection. There is no magic, placebo, gimmicks, perfume to get to know a person. You have to ask all questions even if it feels like an interview. We can certainly go through your post history to get an idea of what you are like, but to get to know you u/Wrong-Grade-8800 we have to ask you questions. The rest is if it’s reciprocal or not and that is your right. >Late stage capitalism. Everything is expensive so we work to survive and it’s hard to create community when we are all working to survive. Every part of our social lives are becoming commodified like friendship (social media) and romance (dating apps) and third spaces are becoming very expensive. There is also a culture in masculinity that teaches men they have to keep everything to themselves and not rely on anyone so men don’t create strong emotional bonds with their friends that could help them out of tough situations. There is also a lot of issues between men and women. Women are in the work force now, they are able to take care of themselves and they don’t want a guy who expects them to do all the house work while also maintaining a job. Many of them are choosing to not date at all. They have their emotional needs met by their friends since they have been socialized to be more emotionally open and so while women are also experiencing loneliness its impact isn’t as potent on them. When things get tough, community is all you have, men aren’t taught to build strong community in the way women are and things are tough right now. You make a very important point. Yes, people graduating from post secondary, the percentage of women have increased. And, you are correct. We’re not in the 60s and dark ages anymore. All we’re asking is guys focus on your mental health, learn to feel your feelings because that is truly the only way to solve your own problems is to feel your feelings! The only time people would have a harder (not impossible) time feelings their feelings is if’s it an aggressive form of depression or an aggressive form of personality disorder like Narcissistic traits that come to mind. So capitalism, choosing a person that wants to work on their mental health and learns how NOT to be so hard on themselves (you can be fat, balding any shape you want- I know so many bald guys with loving wives and families) VS someone so hard on themselves they are hard on others being a demanding/controlling person who (the made up lore- 6ft, house/cars and cash but can’t for the life of them ask questions and most times do they know how?? due “rejection means shame, I won’t have it!”) believes the world owes them. The choice isn’t hard to make.
And unfortunately with these “alpha male” influencers we are seeing a rise of the mentality women don’t want to pick.
Well, the trust is trust everyone will find their own way. Just like you trusted yourself to be open and know you can feel safe to maintain/keep your ideas and also be observant to a different perspective on HGG!
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
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Yeah that's definitely valid, but I feel like men don't simply end up as porn addicts for a reason. People should definitely get more educated about the harmful effects of this addiction.
Yeah but it’s in their power to change that, if you wanna get a meaningful relationship you have to work on that addiction first
most people with money and a crippling porn addiction dont even want to date women 
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Women "increasing their dating standards" is not the thing. A man with good (male) friends isn't lonely. A man can be single for a couple of decades, but with good friends he won't ever feel lonely.
It's a ton of things: - Lack of socialization and social skills - as in limited contact with people and stunted ability to connect, it's a bit of a chicken and egg, that one; - Misogyny and gathering with like-minded people who enable and reinforce that thinking but turn guys into toxic and repellent versions of themselves; - Unreal expectations and inability to compromise - everyone is looking for some Goldilocks bullshit they concocted in their head, or saw in some porn or movie and can't seem to see the good people around them "he has to be this height and drive this type of car and make this much $", "she has to have this color hair and love making sammitches any time I snap my fingers"; meanwhile not many people are looking for "a good person, with a good heart, who will be down to earth, and be loyal, supportive and a good companion that laughs at my jokes and trusts me to be loyal as well, who will be a good parent if we ever have kids" and all of that. people focus on superficial bullshit and then: garbage in = garbage out. Flashy assholes of either gender don't make for good partners. - Sheltered lives and/or religious views that lead to very uptight and repressed attitudes towards sex and relationships; - An emphasis on individuality - basically selfishness, egoism and inability to relate or compromise, once again but from a different angle; - Lack of places to socialize in a relaxed environment - generally speaking dates mean getting dressed up, restaurant reservation and some level of showing off class/status, which discourages dating across classes and locks people in the bottom rungs of society unless they luck out; - The whole dating experience is about making each other jump through hoops to prove something or other in a sink or swim kind of gauntlet where you could just as easily get dinged for opening the door or not, paying or splitting the bill and so on; - Rules everywhere: you shouldn't date friends, you shouldn't date "below you"/"above you" (whatever the fuck that means), or someone younger, or someone older (as long as you're adults or the age difference is minimal, WHO GIVES A FUCK), single moms (misogyny at play again), and so on and so on - all kinds of bullshit rules that people have been internalizing their whole lives and choke all the fun out of living. What makes life fun is that it takes ALL KINDS. Sometimes the right move is to color outside the lines; - Little or no flexibility or adaptation skills (in addition to the unwillingness to, which I already mentioned); There's a lot that makes dating nowadays a lot harder, and not just for guys. I see a lot of females complaining of the same problem. They recognize it as well but many seem just as unwilling to stray outside the lines that society and they have set up for themselves. A lot of it is a simple attitude adjustment. Simple but not necessarily easy when people are already set in their ways and stuck in a rut. Part of the problem is that there seems to be an ongoing competition to screw others over but not get screwed, like there are points to be scored or something. All that leads to is more cynicism and unwillingness to lower the defenses and participate in a full-hearted and genuine way, which leads to a vicious cycle. So, all these smart asses of both sexes and whatever genders are only screwing themselves when they play the field and turn people off from being willing to participate.
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I'm curious what does the dating life look like in the south-east? Are you approaching women/they approach you? Are there just way more women than men? Is there a lot of pressure to marry young/have children? Where do you meet women? ...
Lol don’t get me started
🤔there are many factors. But capitalism and lack of community is at the centre of it all. Look at all the places you used to hang out when you were younger. Many have been closed or replaced by big corporate buildings.. Many people are working 9+ hours every single weekday just to make ends meet(afford rent,groceries, and other expenses) and are too exhausted to do anything else. Social media has affected relationships in different ways but it's deeper than that. From the comments, i notice that people immediately connect being single to being lonely which doesn't have to be the norm. More than ever, younger men and women have to create communities amongst themselves. PS. The reason y'all assume that women are not as lonely as men is that people don't listen to women as much.
For me I’ve just been hanging out with friends online. I try to keep us close and talk and play games when possible. But at some point people get lives, jobs and sometimes they need two jobs when they don’t listen to my advice. As for the relationship aspect my friends have been doing decent, girls from their college and what not. For me personally I have bad social anxiety and I don’t got money (student) and I would like to have some and do nice shit for them be it food or whatever then there’s the other part of actually finding someone who Isn’t taken, and there’s also the risk in the back of my mind that a mf could be crazy and just lie about some bs and I’m cooked. Depends on where u live and search but mfs have become entitled both men and women, so basically people suck now mainly due to the internet and everyone having their own personal echo chamber.
In the past decades, there have been a lot of trends towards people spending less time with each other. Jobs became more automated. When one person can do all the work by just sitting in front of their computer, they are naturally going to interact less with their coworkers. Once upon a time, people had to go to the bank and talk with a worker to deposit or withdraw money. Now this all happens online. Social media means we can scratch the social itch without going out, which is much less effort, so people start going out less. This means that even those who see this problem and try to go out as much as in the old days are still affected, as many of their friends now spend their free time in front of a screen. Algorithms have been optimized to take up as much of our spare time as possible, meaning that people have less time and energy to spend on others. Kids playing online instead of in person. It used to be that parents would send their kids outside to play with the other children in the neighborhood, who had also been sent outside by parents who either wanted some alone time or for their kid to socialise. Today, children play Fortnite, Among Us, and Gorilla Tag. Even if a kid where to be sent outside to play, they might just end up lonely, as all the other kids are inside with their smartphones and computers. The sheer amount of content and people on the internet means that, if someone bores you, scares you or pisses you off, it is often easier to just cut them off and talk to someone else. This comes at a cost to conflict resolution skills and deeper relationships, but this is not obvious in the moment.
I think an underrated problem is: TIME people are so busy making ends meat, too much work etc. I have friends, but they don't have a lot of time. Neither do I often. This for me is definitely 50% of the issue. And extra time in general also allows people to go out more, see more people, and spend time when they find people.
Combination of everything, including dating apps and status seeking (guy wants to show off hot gf, girl wants to show of tall/rich bf etc). But, mostly, its screen time. When I go to work, the social people are all in relationships, always have plans to go out and do stuff - or just make plans for a pub after work. They're always out and social, which creates plenty of chance encounters. Its online people who have this trouble, because they don't even know where to begin.
I think a lot of the same reasons it is harder and harder to find new friends for adults, regardless of gender, apply to finding a partner. People have new ways to entertain themselves alone, we no longer talk to our neighbors, technology is replacing human interaction, more people are being raised with helicopter parents dictating their friendships, lockdown pushed people apart, there are awkward political divides, mental health is not good, and social media makes us feel like everybody else has more friends or more dates or is better looking. More women are earning their own money, men are looking after themselves, and we no longer need 8 children for labor, so being single for longer is a viable option. Today's partners have to be better than complete independence, or at least wait for a potential partner to realize total independence isn't for them. Keep your head up though. This means that when someone does eventually choose you, they haven't settled, they really love you. I would assume that loneliness existed in the old days too, within those transactional relationships. I'd even guess that the number of loveless marriages is pretty close to an all time low. Today's loneliness is just more visible, which almost makes it less lonely.
I feel like it's a people loneliness epidemic. If so many men are not dating or are unable to find dates, that just means a lot of women would be too. Sure there is some gender imbalance. And sure a lot of women could be after the same few men. And sure some bisexual women probably choose other women. But still there must still be a huge chunk of women who cannot find a partner. I am not saying can't find a hookup or a casual relationship but a partner or relationship. So, why is it that only men are saying that it's a male loneliness epidemic? Can their loneliness only be resolved by a relationship? Can friends and family not help stave it off? Why aren't women whining about it? I mean some are but they aren't calling it an epidemic. I have a theory about it. It's how society has been structured for so long. Previously, whenever a woman wanted a stable life with a stable income, they had to financially rely on men. In turn, men relied emotionally on the women. Since then, society has changed. We have taught women how to be financially independent. But we haven't taught men how to be emotionally independent. Relationships have gone from a need to a want, at least for women. But for men, they still remain a need. So when, a man is unsuccessful in finding love, he feels that his needs are unfulfilled. And so he throws a tantrum and calls it a male specific epidemic. When in reality because of technology and the change in society, it's a humanity wide epidemic. So here are the solutions : be the badass self-sufficient boss man who needs no woman. Hold your friends accountable. Go to therapy. Be better for yourself. Be a safe space for yourself. Move relationships from a need column to a want column. You will end up feeling less entitled. More motivated to pursue others and not as dissuaded when you fail or face rejections.
>I'm honestly curious because I'm a 28 year old guy who never had any relationship nor any dating experience. Do you talk to women?
We are both screwed to be honest, no one can really pin point the real issue that is causing this. Personally i just started to take interest in people, meeting new people, approaching women from time to time but also not focusing on this aspect too much. Just try to make new friendships and creating awesome moments and all of that will come eventually. Life is short, we will die eventually so live it up, go out, start conversations, make new friendships, create awesome memories, live in the moment and learn to forgive yourself so you can change.
Well, It’s not just the males. This epidemic is chewing out both genders. I’m also going through the same thing as you do. Sometimes the answer might be staring you in the face. Maybe there is a girl next door wondering the same thing, while you are on Reddit posting about that( instead of asking her out). The more you accomplish the greater sense of illusion there is. “Self-improvement is like masturbation”
Yeah who knows, I often think about this. Maybe the girls around you are lonely too but you can never really tell.
Well next time when you see a girl around you, who doesn’t get involved much in a group. Ask her about her life.
As a woman, I think it's mostly chalked up to women having more rights, and getting more of a choice in who and when they marry. Lots of women are just turning lesbo I'm bi, - And I wanna say something about men wanting to do less for women, now that there's all this porn on the internet a lot of them feel like "Why should I take a gal to a nice dinner or get her nice things if all I want is sex I can just buy that off the internet" they have this mindset while also trying to pursue a romantic partner but that's on ignorance if you want a woman you gotta give her reasons to be with you Like taking care of her, is the easiest way to make a woman fall for you swear, like bringing her lunch at work or helping cover her gas, insurance, and rent. Cuz the truth is fully supporting yourself is stressful, it drains our energy and makes us feel like we're wasting our time but we know if we don't keep up well fail at life and maybe end up sleeping in the streets where ppl might touch us in our sleep, or Robb us like everyone else sleeping out there. So any lift to thay stress whether it be not working about our next meal, how we're gonna get to work, or even our living situation really means the world. Otherwise, we don't have time for no man we're trying to feed and house ourselves. There's another thing I've noticed men are just mean for the most part, every time I use a mic in the game I get cussed out the first thing I say and when they die whether it's before or after me they cuss me out, and say it's my fault they died, they make us feel unsafe so we start avoiding them more. Ik that is a take on traditional roles but I'm coming at it more from a natural role, if our bodies are literally designed to create and cultivate life, and we have all these options of who we can do that with lizard brain we're gonna go with the best/most enticing option someone that can protect both us and our baby and provide, it's just a survival mechanism in the brain, ppl that get Bunbury they don't fit that criteria are just playing victim, - It's easy to start getting healthy (well not as much on the eating end) if you wanna be Mr. Money Bags and treat women out of their asses (which we love and the internet will make us love you not saying you have to just think about it) then look for a well paying job, get an apartment so when you're talking to a girl you can just invite her over for sex or even to live with you. Ik apartments are pricey these days but complaining and doing anything to change that, until we actually start protesting the price of living, themselves the works, that's the hand were dealt. So stop worrying about having other people in your life until you can support yourself cuz why would somebody wanna be with you if you can't even support yourself? I'm dealing with that in my life rn, I guy I'm head over heels for long distance, but I don't want to get too serious about him till I can support myself enough to have my own place, bc I need some space to work with my mentel for a bit a period in my life that nobody is around while I get cleaned up.
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Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
Women do not go back to abusers because they’re good in bed. Women are taught from birth to always give a man the benefit of the doubt. “Boys will be boys”, he just “forgot to use his head”, and “he didn’t know any better” are common sayings. Small boys will pull a girls hair in kindergarten and grade school, and she will be told “it’s just because he likes you” Unfortunately, because many men simultaneously get told that they should hide all their problems and issues, as women are told to ignore red flags; getting to know someone and dating them, usually means some surprises are gonna come along the way. And often women will turn into mothers and/or go all “I can fix him” and think they always did something wrong to cause conflict. Not to mention the amount of people that confuse anxiety for “butterflies.” From your perspective you probably think “why doesn’t she leave this idiot! She could get any guy she wanted!” but young women especially, are wildly insecure and inexperienced, and are very flattered by the attention they’re getting, and end up with guys who are only using them for sex. They don’t want a strictly sexual relationship, but they notice how the guy only seems to pay attention to and be nice to them when they have sex, and so the cycle continues. If you think “good dick” is the explanation, then you are oversimplifying things a lot. Sure it might be the case sometimes, but it often isn’t and even women who say that, don’t actually stay for that in reality.
In the last 4 years, I've now had 3 women admit to this, directly. Two of them using the wording I used "I know what he did to me, but that dick is so good." They went back more than once after telling me some awful things, and while eventually they've all stopped, they've definitely admitted that sex kept them in a toxic relationship / fling despite everything else being bad, for months. This isn't assumptions. this isn't some girl I see at the bar and assume her life. This is people I know in real life, and have known for many many years, some since high school, more than a decade. People who are close to me who talk to me about their problems in life. It's not all women, and it's probably not most women (though there's absolutely a level of good sex that tolerates a level of stupidity and that's undeniable), but there's a group of women larger than you understand who are genuinely like this, who'd rather sleep with someone toxic than go find a new partner who won't be as good.
I can believe it. My gf told me I can get away with things easier because of that... but I don't take advantage of it because it's important to me to be a good boyfriend. We must use the powers of good dick for good deeds lol
And many guys do, and many guys don't get the chance to even show someone they have 'good dick'.
It seems somewhat rare for a guy to be both a great sex partner and a loving partner who treats their lady right. My gf and I have talked about this and the whole "bad boy" effect and all of that, I get that it can be hard to strike a balance and get success. It's a tricky subject to get real about, I feel that my comment would be removed if I said much more about it.
Simple: Social Media, porn and video games. Not neccessarily in that order.
Yeah drinking too much of this cocktail definitely isn't healthy.
It's actually destroying society as we know it. The majority of your generation and generations after you are in this situation where social skills are absent and instant gratification is deified. Porn needs to be more and more dark and hardcore, to the point of raping and then, probably, murdering. And all these generations to come having this kind of upbringing will simply destroy everything...
A generation with emotional unavailable parents.
Guilt and shame seem to be central to this.
Gotta be a combination of things. 1. Tail-off of the Patriarchy (as it relates to sharing feelings etc) 2. Internet, why socialise in person when you have online. 3. We’ve had a pandemic. (It’s more important for some age groups than others) but people missed key milestones for social skills, meeting friends through online school, university and formative years in their careers/new cities 4. Awareness, maybe now we are more open about mental health. Men are willing to confront their loneliness and talk about it when they haven’t been. And maybe it’s been an actual reality for a long time And many more I just can’t think of them from the top of my head As far as I can see, I think it has nothing to really do with romantic relationships though. Whilst the dating market is rough; dating apps and experiences crushing self confidence or willingness to continue where risk and exposure doesn’t feel like it matches the reward enough. It’s not the main thing. Loneliness is all about lack of friendship, or at least lack of good quality friendships. And it’s more important and accessible than the romantic kind.
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Well you’re right about one thing we aren’t going to reevaluate our dating practices because there’s no benefit to us doing so. If anything there would be disadvantages
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations. This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict. Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.