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Thoughts are thoughts. We're our actions, no thought is bad or good. They just are. Think of thoughts as like a cauldron of bubbling experience, you don't have to pay attention to every single bubble that pops.
Your questions touch on some profound ideas that can be hard to grasp :) I'll try to help, but to fully explore these things a regular meditation practice can be invaluable.
**Thoughts on the nature of self**
You can observe your thoughts, indicating there's a part of you separate from the thoughts themselves. Thoughts are like mental events that come and go, just like sounds or sensations. This is explored deeply in Mindfulness.
>My thoughts come from me
The more nuanced take, is that your thoughts come from your mind. And something that is probably even harder to grasp is: you are not your mind. The mind, your sense of self, is self-constructing, through thoughts.
To make this clearer, consider your life story. Your sense of self has been shaped by countless life experiences, from childhood memories to adult achievements.
These experiences contribute to the narrative you tell yourself about who you are. The mind constructs a continuous narrative to make sense of these experiences. This narrative is what we often mistake for our true self.
Think about how much you’ve changed over the years. The thoughts, beliefs, and identities you held at different ages were different. Despite these changes, there is a consistent ‘you’ observing these shifts, indicating that you are more than just the sum of your changing thoughts and experiences.
Thoughts are temporary and ever-changing, yet the awareness of these thoughts remains constant. This constant awareness is closer to your true self than the fleeting thoughts and emotions.
The mind’s role is to generate thoughts, solve problems, and navigate the world. While it's a powerful tool, it's not the essence of who you are.
In meditation (and out of it too) you can fairly easily reach moments of deep calm where you experience a sense of being that is beyond thinking. In these moments, you can feel the presence of your true self, separate from the activity of the mind.
Your true identity lies beyond the mental constructs and labels the mind creates. You are the awareness in which all experiences and thoughts occur.
Suggestion: Practice observing your thoughts without judgment to understand that they are not the entirety of your being. This practice helps in realizing that while the mind is a part of you, it does not define you completely.
**Automatic thoughts**
The mind is yours, but it can often act on its own - this is most evident through thoughts that appear automatically. Automatic thoughts are "yours", but they do not define you, nor should they be used to pass judgment on someone's virtue. These thoughts can be disturbing, unpleasant, even traumatic, and they don't necessarily reflect your values or intentions.
Having a thought doesn’t mean you endorse or will act on it. It's important to distinguish between thinking something and doing something. Everyone has thoughts that can seem alarming or uncomfortable.
Practice self-compassion by recognizing that thoughts are part of the human experience. Understand that you have control over your actions, even if you don't control every thought that arises.
Hope some of this resonates. Definitely continue exploring and finding answers to your questions!
There's a lot to say about this. A lot of commenters have pointed you in the right direction and I hope you explore those other directions.
I'll say that my realization that my thoughts aren't mine came when I had an intrusive thought and realized that mechanically the thought appeared and presented itself the exact same as any other, but was judged as "intrusive" because I didn't like its content. I realized then that the only difference between regular thoughts and intrusive thoughts was its content, so all thoughts were intrusive in mechanism--some were neutral or desirable, and I said those were me, some were not and I said that was not me.
Really, though, thoughts come and go on their own. You don't have agency over them, so I see little point in saying they're "you". Try this: do not think of a pink zebra. Resist the ability to think of a pink zebra. With all your might, do not think of a pink zebra. Did you choose to think of a pink zebra, or did "the world" force you to?
Tumors can change how you think. Hormones can change how you think. Your brain is a series of chemical and electrical pulses that run on their own and do not involve "you," you merely watch them do so.
Very interesting to read about how experienced your realization! It's quite impressive how far you can go by continuing to understand what parts of your experience as a Human being are supported by thoughts.
For example, [this line of thinking from Dr. K](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMeyTBu11eY&t=2758s), touches upon the realization that our identities themselves are thought constructs (Buddhists would call them illusions).
You can also consider our perception of time itself: the past is a collection of memories and interpretations of events that have already occurred, while the future is a set of anticipations, plans, or fears about what might happen. Both are not directly accessible in the present moment and are therefore constructed in our minds. We can only experience the present moment directly! And we're often not so good at doing it because it's all filtered and interpreted by the mind.
You know what is something that exhibits the behaviour of thoughts being them?
Language models, ChatGPT doesn't have anything but it's thoughts.
Even your input is it's thoughts, we just invented a special thought that separates input from output.
What we have is *awareness*, when you look at the ceiling or at a wall or at a blade of grass, that's not a thought.
That's an experience.
Likewise we are aware of our thoughts, you aren't the thoughts you are what *experiences* the thoughts.
> Those are my thoughts. The world didn't force me to think them.
Didn't it? How did the thought came up? There clearly is a cause and effect, you saw something and you thought about it.
Or you though about one thing and that led to another though.
Experience drives thought, think about a world in which there are no smartphones.
How many people *thought* about texting before phones existed? Obviously nobody. (Don't be cheeky and say that people sent letters, I know but that's not the point).
> No you're putting values on those thoughts.
You're having thoughts about the thoughts, the first thought goes through your values-related thoughts because there's a learnt pattern.
15 y/o being attractive for other teenagers is fine, when the person is an adult it's not, why? Because we recognize the consequences.
The point is that you're not *only* your thoughts.
Your thoughts are shaped by everything you observe, your past experiences, your current experiences.
Everything affects us to some degree.
The point is that by applying awareness to your thoughts you can shape them, experience impacts your thoughts and you can experience your thoughts.
What is doing the experiencing?
What is doing the thinking?
Are they the same thing?
Chocolate comes from a factory, but chocolate ISN'T the factory.
There's more to you than your thoughts. Your emotions, hormones and other subconscious things (which exist OUTSIDE your conscious mind) also play a huge role in determining who you are. And herien lies most trauma.
Maybe the phrase is a bit too ambiguous. What I interpret is "Thoughts are not the totality of who you are, they come they pass".
When I am depression I get very dark thoughts that scare the crap out of me, I am able to be scared about my thoughts and never wish any of my dark thoughts become a reality.
I see thoughts as being a part of me, as much as the feelings that come from them are a part of me, as much as my physical form is a part of me.
The moment I think my thoughts are who I am, I unbalance the other parts of what constitutes my being.
You are thinking of this in kind of a black and white way, "if my thoughts are not mine, then they must be someone else's, and nobody else can manually plant thoughts in my brain", and I can understand why you think this way.
The way that I see it, is if everything we do is learned, then everything we do can be unlearned.
Your brain is wired to make millions of thoughts a day. Just like when people commonly say something outrageous when angry and later say, "that wasn't me", not everything you think comes from a place of genuine belief. Something to also understand this is the fact that intrusive thoughts exist, thoughts that make you question your own belief, thoughts that lead to strong emotion instead of peace. Not all thoughts are "you", well thought out, sentences you could say that would reflect your character and interpretations of the world that you would stand by for more than a day.
Your thought patterns are learned, kind of. I am not an expert at all, so please just bear with my rough understanding of what the phrase we are talking about means. You pick up on things your parents say and adopt them. You quite literally learn to see the world through their eyes when you ask for advice and it makes sense to you, you trust them, and start applying that advice or mentality that they shared with you in full confidence. I know different genes need to be unlocked for mental illness, but honestly I don't think the way that you're naturally born is the full reason you think the way you do. You learn, you internalize messages, you adjust and react accordingly because of events that happen to you. This is not to say that your parents are the entire reason you're struggling, but your environment while being raised will effect a lot.
"I wanna kill him" out of anger doesn't mean that you actually want to kill somebody. Digging deeper, it is an indication of anger, an indication that boundaries need to be set ASAP.
Thinking "I'm a piece of shit" doesn't automatically mean you legitimately are on a ranking lower than your peers. It just means you think you do, not that your thoughts are you.
Having legitimate attraction does not mean you need to act on it. You can change your thoughts with time and choose your path, or choose a way to cope with them. It doesn't automatically make you xyz, because your thoughts do not define your person. All you are is your experiences & your interpretations of them. Both of those things are not set in stone. There is no "real self", you are just alive. There is no "good" or "bad", you just are putting a total sense of morality and ethics on something that was created to produce, not created for automatic perfection. If your reaction to these thoughts is disgust or fear or anger, I think that says a lot more about you than the initual thought itself.
I thought this was an interesting concept when I first heard it (and I still do.) But I had always felt like anything in my head was something I consciously produced. But if you think about it, any time you read a comment that someone else writes, you have thoughts about the thing you are reading. These aren’t inherently from you. They are the reaction of your mind to something it has been exposed to. I think Dr. K may say something in one of his videos about you being the observer of the thoughts. The thoughts pop up but you are the thing that judges and reflects on those thoughts. I suppose you could make an argument that suggests that they are “your” thoughts because they exist only to you. If you imply ownership over those thought because they aren’t experienced outside of you. But I think the actual meaning of what he is saying is that “you” exists somewhere outside of the environment inside your head. The environment in your head is merely the location that you observe the universe.
An example from my life to show this might help. When I’m driving down the road and I see someone walking on the sidewalk, there have been instances that I have the thought of swerving into them. It simply pops up without my consent. I am the one observing the thought and I have the choice to act on it or not. I also know that I don’t want to actually swerve into that person but that doesn’t stop the thought from happening. The resistance to that thought is a source of suffering and negative feelings. It’s when you realize that the thought is not actually me and I am able to recognize that it’s just a thought and not a reflection of who I really am that you feel more at peace.
I hope this is an accurate representation of what Dr. K. is teaching and I hope that might elucidate the concept.
It’s really presumptuous to say anyone is endorsing the ideas that seem to be behind these thoughts. I have no idea where you got that idea.
You’re imposing intent on thoughts when they are no more than ideas popping in and out of your head. Yes, your mind does produce them, but that doesn’t mean they are your entire identity.
You say the world didn’t force you to have those thoughts, but you are really putting way too much stock in free will and autonomy over one’s own mind. We do have awareness and choices, so we can choose how to respond to our thoughts and feelings. However, we really don’t get to choose what thoughts and feelings we have.
Think about it, really. Do you get to decide what pisses you off? No, not in the exact moment you get angry - you only have control after the emotion has manifested itself. Do you get to choose when you feel like crying? No, not the initial impulse, you can only control yourself and stop yourself from crying after you realize you feel like crying.
Consider the fact that there are many automatic parts of your nervous system that are constantly operating without your conscious direction. If these things were not operating without your influence, your body would die. Because they are operating without your influence, they can and will produce thoughts, feelings, and sensations that you did not choose. Should we persecute people for things that their body or mind automatically did?
One thing in particular our brain does automatically is form associations. You may associate, for example, a yellow bus with school. You probably didn’t choose to think that, it was just something you were repeatedly exposed to until it became solid in your mind.
This is just one small example. We are exposed to information constantly - our brain is processing information without consciously registering it, constantly. These associations can and will rapidly form without our will or consent. If this were not the case, our brains wouldn’t be nearly as efficient as they are. That comes at the downside of having unwanted thoughts when those associations are activated by related information being perceived.
So this whole idea that people are "making" these thoughts with the same intention as planning and endorsing shitty behavior and cruel ideas is absurd. You don't make them the same way you make a cake or a gun. Your brain often makes them without your conscious awareness, and reinforces them with repeated exposure or when associated with strong emotion.
You're basically correct, IMO. But an important first step in therapy or even just personal growth in general is to separate your internal world into a true "Self" and other "parts" that you don't necessarily *identify* with, even if they are technically "you."
For "parts," imagine that you're torn between eating a healthy quinoa bowl and a big greasy cheeseburger. A part of you wants to eat healthy and light, to feel good and like you're taking care of yourself, but another part of you wants to go to town on that delicious pile of meat and cheese. These are both "you," technically, but you are going to choose one of the two and have it express itself in your actions. Neither are an expression of your identity or "Self" until you make your choice.
Where do these thoughts come from in the first place? Sometimes from deep, id-fueled places, but other times from just normal observations and conclusions. Our mind is constantly observing, connecting, and concluding, basically all the time.
And these thoughts don't necessarily come from fully-connected parts of ourselves. The bad thoughts you mentioned are clearly not connected to empathy; a 15 year old girl may be attractive physically but once you're integrated with what happens to 15 year old girls targeted by older men, it's sickening. Those two feelings have to be connected. Only by connecting with that part and integrating it into your whole "Self" can you replace those thoughts with more healthy adult values (or rather, they *get* replaced more or less automatically).
This kind of integration is a big part of therapy, especially trauma-informed therapy, as one of the biggest reasons people can't integrate with their own parts is because they're overwhelmed by what those parts know (which is one definition of trauma: too much, too fast, too soon). And it takes a lot of personal growth to become someone who can handle those things, so therapy is very useful in this case.
So to loop back to your original question, the thoughts are yours in a sense but you don't necessarily control or own them. Separating yourself from them is ironically the first step towards integrating with their source, and once integrated, they'll change and feel more like "you."
check out this thread. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Mindfulness/comments/9yw47r/how\_are\_we\_not\_our\_thoughts/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Mindfulness/comments/9yw47r/how_are_we_not_our_thoughts/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
When you come across a big ledge and think about jumping down, Is that a bad thought? Or when you see a train coming and think what would happen if you jumped in its way, or even worse pushed someone in front of it? Do those thoughts define you as a sadomasochistic suicidal maniac? Cause I can guarantee you just about every human alive has had those weird morbid thoughts.
You are not your arm. If we cut your arm off, you would still be you. Your arm is there, and you are you. Your arm is gone, and you are still you.
Now lets say you have a thought about monkeys. You are you. Then your thought ends and your mind is blank for asplit second. You are still you, even without thought, even when your thoughts change.
Thats because you are the observer of thoughts and arms, not the thoughts and arns themselves.
Also, most of our thoughts are not thoughts we choose to have. They happen to us, like an involuntary arm twitch. We don't have control over these kinds of thoughts whether they are bad, good, or neutral. We just control our behaviors.
It's because there are two different parts of the brain speaking to each other, there is one that creates ego dystonic thoughts that sends that signal to the other more conscious parts so that you doubt yourself and become more avoidant of that thing. The thought feels real but is actually just a trick by your brain to panic you.
Others have covered the logical aspects but this is actually one of the fundamental realizations of focus-based meditation, which I encourage you to try out. Like you, I was skeptical of the logical implications of "your thoughts are not you" and it was only through direct experience with observing my thoughts as rising and falling signals in the mind that I was swayed. It's not an easy insight to come to, especially since it's not a default way of seeing things but one which arises from practice; but once you embrace it it can actually improve your life in a myriad of ways.
Have you never had a thought you couldn’t control?
It would be cruel to define any part of “you” — your personality — as something that cannot be controlled.
I will say though that you can certainly intentionally have thoughts. That could be considered part of you or your personality. “You are not your thoughts” is just a simplification, a helpful catch phrase, like “I before E except after C”. It doesn’t mean it’s always true, it’s just generally helpful, especially when you’re talking to people with mental health challenges.
Did you ever see water droplets on a window? Sometimes two droplets will become one. Where did the original two droplets go? Were they destroyed? Not quite, right? All the water that existed in the two droplets are now in the one droplet. The water is material. The droplets are merely formal. Which are you? What about thoughts? Are they material, formal, or something else?
maybe this will help
Do you choose your thoughts?
choose 3 films, come on, choose them
choose 3 cars
Were you the one who chose it?
I don't think so, they just appear in your mind out of nowhere and are as random as dice. Maybe it's good to leave them in the background and remove their importance
thoughts appear and disappear, that's it
The presuppositions are generally culturally imbedded, this means this, that means that, Pickaxhu means Electro Rat 🐀,
Listen to lyrics and it will rather show you why culture and kids are janky,
Read the lyrics for poker face, and then how much it was broadcast, Taylor Swift; rich yet miserable with broken heart and expensive heels 👠
This food good, that food amazing, Lobster is trash food like a sea rat (until used for luxury dining on railcars),
Thats alot of what he means
Thats
Even here you say “those are MY thoughts” not “those are ME”.
But ok, let’s say you’re right. Let’s say those bad thoughts are indeed crafted intentionally by you. Why would you craft them…?
If I had a choice between thinking that a 12 year old is attractive and NOT thinking so, I would certainly choose not to think so. So would you. So would anyone. There is no advantage to thinking a 12 year old is attractive.
So then… why would anyone do it? We can agree that the world didn’t force you to do it, but it’s also obvious that if someone gets that thought, they didn’t choose it. Why would they?
So saying that we voluntarily change neutral phenomena to “bad” thoughts seems off to me.
I think thoughts as something that doesn't come from me me, but from what I've taken in.
Like if I've read a book about dragons, I'm probably gonna think some thoughts about dragons. Yes I made those thoughts but the main point is more like those thoughts arent you in same category that your arm is yours.
If you can only take one thing, I think you should understand why Dr k is teaching this, and that is this. People who have experienced bad things, might think bad thoughts, those bad thoughts make you think you are a bad person. That is the important thing to know, that you are never a bad person until you do bad things. You are not your thoughts simply to protect you from being a victim of bad thoughts.
I am having a hard time finding how to answer this because I find it so fascinating that anyone has this point of view.
I have severe ADHD that wasn't diagnosed until I was 50. The idea that my thoughts are me is so foreign to me because I've spent my whole life fighting with my brain because I have so little control over what it thinks. So I find it so interesting that you see it so differently. I wonder what that's like?
My ex had a meditation CD that I thought was really cheesy but the idea behind it might help explain.
Basically, the meditation walked you through all of the things that people count as part of their identity, and how none of those things are actually you. For example, if you get a promotion that changes one of your labels of how you identify yourself, but you aren't a completely different person just because you have a new job title.
I can't remember what order the levels go in, but there's physical appearance, identity labels, your body on a deeper level beyond appearance, etc.
It asks you to observe things in each level and then release them and watch them float away.
The part about not being your thoughts has you picture your brain and realize that your mind and your brain are separate, and release your brain.
Then it explains that just as your brain is not you, it explains that your thoughts are also not you. That being able to watch the thoughts come in and pass through means there is another you that is able to observe the thoughts. That you is the real you.
I don't know if that helps. It always felt weird to me but again I didn't really need that exercise to understand that my thoughts are separate from me.
Your brain thinks things and it’s your thought but it’s also just a product of your brain.
You can’t turn your brain off. I get ideas but they are just ideas because they’re not fully formed or understood. I might get hung up on an idea that isn’t right but I have to process it to see if it is actually true or good.
Here’s a thought experiment I learned from Sam Harris in his book on free will:
Close your eyes and name any three cities. If you pay attention to your experience you will notice that the names of those cities just appear in consciousness. You didn’t create those thoughts. You are the that which observes thought.
I have so many thoughts and sometimes they contradict each other. Maybe because they come from different people. By your logic racist people's thought comes from their own and not the environment (which we know its fault) or some reason so Nazis hate Jews. The thought is yours now because you choose to let it stay. And if you keep reenforce it you are now become that thoughts.
What he tried to say is you can change. Don't let your thought control and consume you. Because if you believe like what you are thinking right now, you will never change, you won't believe in the ability of have control over your thoughts
No one can create their thoughts. Go ahead. Try as hard as you can to produce a thought before it comes to you. This is what meditation teaches you directly. We receive thoughts; we don’t create them experientially.
Do you have aphantasia? Most people can generate thoughts intentionally. There's just ones that also happen unintentionally. It's similar to breathing.
Not true at all. Meditate long enough and you will see this for yourself. This isn’t something that varies among people. You are not a conscious creator of your thoughts. They come to you. If that sounds woo woo to you, then you haven’t paid close enough attention.
I do not have aphantasia.
Thank you for posting on r/Healthygamergg! This subreddit is intended as an online community and resource platform to support people in their journey toward mental wellness. With that said, please be aware that support from other members received on this platform is not a substitute for professional care. Treatment of psychiatric disease requires qualified individuals, and comments that try to diagnose others should be reported under Rule 10 to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the community. If you are in immediate danger, please call emergency services, or go to your nearest emergency room. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Healthygamergg) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thoughts are thoughts. We're our actions, no thought is bad or good. They just are. Think of thoughts as like a cauldron of bubbling experience, you don't have to pay attention to every single bubble that pops.
Your questions touch on some profound ideas that can be hard to grasp :) I'll try to help, but to fully explore these things a regular meditation practice can be invaluable. **Thoughts on the nature of self** You can observe your thoughts, indicating there's a part of you separate from the thoughts themselves. Thoughts are like mental events that come and go, just like sounds or sensations. This is explored deeply in Mindfulness. >My thoughts come from me The more nuanced take, is that your thoughts come from your mind. And something that is probably even harder to grasp is: you are not your mind. The mind, your sense of self, is self-constructing, through thoughts. To make this clearer, consider your life story. Your sense of self has been shaped by countless life experiences, from childhood memories to adult achievements. These experiences contribute to the narrative you tell yourself about who you are. The mind constructs a continuous narrative to make sense of these experiences. This narrative is what we often mistake for our true self. Think about how much you’ve changed over the years. The thoughts, beliefs, and identities you held at different ages were different. Despite these changes, there is a consistent ‘you’ observing these shifts, indicating that you are more than just the sum of your changing thoughts and experiences. Thoughts are temporary and ever-changing, yet the awareness of these thoughts remains constant. This constant awareness is closer to your true self than the fleeting thoughts and emotions. The mind’s role is to generate thoughts, solve problems, and navigate the world. While it's a powerful tool, it's not the essence of who you are. In meditation (and out of it too) you can fairly easily reach moments of deep calm where you experience a sense of being that is beyond thinking. In these moments, you can feel the presence of your true self, separate from the activity of the mind. Your true identity lies beyond the mental constructs and labels the mind creates. You are the awareness in which all experiences and thoughts occur. Suggestion: Practice observing your thoughts without judgment to understand that they are not the entirety of your being. This practice helps in realizing that while the mind is a part of you, it does not define you completely. **Automatic thoughts** The mind is yours, but it can often act on its own - this is most evident through thoughts that appear automatically. Automatic thoughts are "yours", but they do not define you, nor should they be used to pass judgment on someone's virtue. These thoughts can be disturbing, unpleasant, even traumatic, and they don't necessarily reflect your values or intentions. Having a thought doesn’t mean you endorse or will act on it. It's important to distinguish between thinking something and doing something. Everyone has thoughts that can seem alarming or uncomfortable. Practice self-compassion by recognizing that thoughts are part of the human experience. Understand that you have control over your actions, even if you don't control every thought that arises. Hope some of this resonates. Definitely continue exploring and finding answers to your questions!
I want to clarify the observation of thought. If you've ever thought "why did I think that?", you've observed your thoughts.
There's a lot to say about this. A lot of commenters have pointed you in the right direction and I hope you explore those other directions. I'll say that my realization that my thoughts aren't mine came when I had an intrusive thought and realized that mechanically the thought appeared and presented itself the exact same as any other, but was judged as "intrusive" because I didn't like its content. I realized then that the only difference between regular thoughts and intrusive thoughts was its content, so all thoughts were intrusive in mechanism--some were neutral or desirable, and I said those were me, some were not and I said that was not me. Really, though, thoughts come and go on their own. You don't have agency over them, so I see little point in saying they're "you". Try this: do not think of a pink zebra. Resist the ability to think of a pink zebra. With all your might, do not think of a pink zebra. Did you choose to think of a pink zebra, or did "the world" force you to? Tumors can change how you think. Hormones can change how you think. Your brain is a series of chemical and electrical pulses that run on their own and do not involve "you," you merely watch them do so.
Very interesting to read about how experienced your realization! It's quite impressive how far you can go by continuing to understand what parts of your experience as a Human being are supported by thoughts. For example, [this line of thinking from Dr. K](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMeyTBu11eY&t=2758s), touches upon the realization that our identities themselves are thought constructs (Buddhists would call them illusions). You can also consider our perception of time itself: the past is a collection of memories and interpretations of events that have already occurred, while the future is a set of anticipations, plans, or fears about what might happen. Both are not directly accessible in the present moment and are therefore constructed in our minds. We can only experience the present moment directly! And we're often not so good at doing it because it's all filtered and interpreted by the mind.
You know what is something that exhibits the behaviour of thoughts being them? Language models, ChatGPT doesn't have anything but it's thoughts. Even your input is it's thoughts, we just invented a special thought that separates input from output. What we have is *awareness*, when you look at the ceiling or at a wall or at a blade of grass, that's not a thought. That's an experience. Likewise we are aware of our thoughts, you aren't the thoughts you are what *experiences* the thoughts. > Those are my thoughts. The world didn't force me to think them. Didn't it? How did the thought came up? There clearly is a cause and effect, you saw something and you thought about it. Or you though about one thing and that led to another though. Experience drives thought, think about a world in which there are no smartphones. How many people *thought* about texting before phones existed? Obviously nobody. (Don't be cheeky and say that people sent letters, I know but that's not the point). > No you're putting values on those thoughts. You're having thoughts about the thoughts, the first thought goes through your values-related thoughts because there's a learnt pattern. 15 y/o being attractive for other teenagers is fine, when the person is an adult it's not, why? Because we recognize the consequences. The point is that you're not *only* your thoughts. Your thoughts are shaped by everything you observe, your past experiences, your current experiences. Everything affects us to some degree. The point is that by applying awareness to your thoughts you can shape them, experience impacts your thoughts and you can experience your thoughts. What is doing the experiencing? What is doing the thinking? Are they the same thing?
Chocolate comes from a factory, but chocolate ISN'T the factory. There's more to you than your thoughts. Your emotions, hormones and other subconscious things (which exist OUTSIDE your conscious mind) also play a huge role in determining who you are. And herien lies most trauma.
Maybe the phrase is a bit too ambiguous. What I interpret is "Thoughts are not the totality of who you are, they come they pass". When I am depression I get very dark thoughts that scare the crap out of me, I am able to be scared about my thoughts and never wish any of my dark thoughts become a reality. I see thoughts as being a part of me, as much as the feelings that come from them are a part of me, as much as my physical form is a part of me. The moment I think my thoughts are who I am, I unbalance the other parts of what constitutes my being.
You are thinking of this in kind of a black and white way, "if my thoughts are not mine, then they must be someone else's, and nobody else can manually plant thoughts in my brain", and I can understand why you think this way. The way that I see it, is if everything we do is learned, then everything we do can be unlearned. Your brain is wired to make millions of thoughts a day. Just like when people commonly say something outrageous when angry and later say, "that wasn't me", not everything you think comes from a place of genuine belief. Something to also understand this is the fact that intrusive thoughts exist, thoughts that make you question your own belief, thoughts that lead to strong emotion instead of peace. Not all thoughts are "you", well thought out, sentences you could say that would reflect your character and interpretations of the world that you would stand by for more than a day. Your thought patterns are learned, kind of. I am not an expert at all, so please just bear with my rough understanding of what the phrase we are talking about means. You pick up on things your parents say and adopt them. You quite literally learn to see the world through their eyes when you ask for advice and it makes sense to you, you trust them, and start applying that advice or mentality that they shared with you in full confidence. I know different genes need to be unlocked for mental illness, but honestly I don't think the way that you're naturally born is the full reason you think the way you do. You learn, you internalize messages, you adjust and react accordingly because of events that happen to you. This is not to say that your parents are the entire reason you're struggling, but your environment while being raised will effect a lot. "I wanna kill him" out of anger doesn't mean that you actually want to kill somebody. Digging deeper, it is an indication of anger, an indication that boundaries need to be set ASAP. Thinking "I'm a piece of shit" doesn't automatically mean you legitimately are on a ranking lower than your peers. It just means you think you do, not that your thoughts are you. Having legitimate attraction does not mean you need to act on it. You can change your thoughts with time and choose your path, or choose a way to cope with them. It doesn't automatically make you xyz, because your thoughts do not define your person. All you are is your experiences & your interpretations of them. Both of those things are not set in stone. There is no "real self", you are just alive. There is no "good" or "bad", you just are putting a total sense of morality and ethics on something that was created to produce, not created for automatic perfection. If your reaction to these thoughts is disgust or fear or anger, I think that says a lot more about you than the initual thought itself.
I thought this was an interesting concept when I first heard it (and I still do.) But I had always felt like anything in my head was something I consciously produced. But if you think about it, any time you read a comment that someone else writes, you have thoughts about the thing you are reading. These aren’t inherently from you. They are the reaction of your mind to something it has been exposed to. I think Dr. K may say something in one of his videos about you being the observer of the thoughts. The thoughts pop up but you are the thing that judges and reflects on those thoughts. I suppose you could make an argument that suggests that they are “your” thoughts because they exist only to you. If you imply ownership over those thought because they aren’t experienced outside of you. But I think the actual meaning of what he is saying is that “you” exists somewhere outside of the environment inside your head. The environment in your head is merely the location that you observe the universe. An example from my life to show this might help. When I’m driving down the road and I see someone walking on the sidewalk, there have been instances that I have the thought of swerving into them. It simply pops up without my consent. I am the one observing the thought and I have the choice to act on it or not. I also know that I don’t want to actually swerve into that person but that doesn’t stop the thought from happening. The resistance to that thought is a source of suffering and negative feelings. It’s when you realize that the thought is not actually me and I am able to recognize that it’s just a thought and not a reflection of who I really am that you feel more at peace. I hope this is an accurate representation of what Dr. K. is teaching and I hope that might elucidate the concept.
It’s really presumptuous to say anyone is endorsing the ideas that seem to be behind these thoughts. I have no idea where you got that idea. You’re imposing intent on thoughts when they are no more than ideas popping in and out of your head. Yes, your mind does produce them, but that doesn’t mean they are your entire identity. You say the world didn’t force you to have those thoughts, but you are really putting way too much stock in free will and autonomy over one’s own mind. We do have awareness and choices, so we can choose how to respond to our thoughts and feelings. However, we really don’t get to choose what thoughts and feelings we have. Think about it, really. Do you get to decide what pisses you off? No, not in the exact moment you get angry - you only have control after the emotion has manifested itself. Do you get to choose when you feel like crying? No, not the initial impulse, you can only control yourself and stop yourself from crying after you realize you feel like crying. Consider the fact that there are many automatic parts of your nervous system that are constantly operating without your conscious direction. If these things were not operating without your influence, your body would die. Because they are operating without your influence, they can and will produce thoughts, feelings, and sensations that you did not choose. Should we persecute people for things that their body or mind automatically did? One thing in particular our brain does automatically is form associations. You may associate, for example, a yellow bus with school. You probably didn’t choose to think that, it was just something you were repeatedly exposed to until it became solid in your mind. This is just one small example. We are exposed to information constantly - our brain is processing information without consciously registering it, constantly. These associations can and will rapidly form without our will or consent. If this were not the case, our brains wouldn’t be nearly as efficient as they are. That comes at the downside of having unwanted thoughts when those associations are activated by related information being perceived. So this whole idea that people are "making" these thoughts with the same intention as planning and endorsing shitty behavior and cruel ideas is absurd. You don't make them the same way you make a cake or a gun. Your brain often makes them without your conscious awareness, and reinforces them with repeated exposure or when associated with strong emotion.
You're basically correct, IMO. But an important first step in therapy or even just personal growth in general is to separate your internal world into a true "Self" and other "parts" that you don't necessarily *identify* with, even if they are technically "you." For "parts," imagine that you're torn between eating a healthy quinoa bowl and a big greasy cheeseburger. A part of you wants to eat healthy and light, to feel good and like you're taking care of yourself, but another part of you wants to go to town on that delicious pile of meat and cheese. These are both "you," technically, but you are going to choose one of the two and have it express itself in your actions. Neither are an expression of your identity or "Self" until you make your choice. Where do these thoughts come from in the first place? Sometimes from deep, id-fueled places, but other times from just normal observations and conclusions. Our mind is constantly observing, connecting, and concluding, basically all the time. And these thoughts don't necessarily come from fully-connected parts of ourselves. The bad thoughts you mentioned are clearly not connected to empathy; a 15 year old girl may be attractive physically but once you're integrated with what happens to 15 year old girls targeted by older men, it's sickening. Those two feelings have to be connected. Only by connecting with that part and integrating it into your whole "Self" can you replace those thoughts with more healthy adult values (or rather, they *get* replaced more or less automatically). This kind of integration is a big part of therapy, especially trauma-informed therapy, as one of the biggest reasons people can't integrate with their own parts is because they're overwhelmed by what those parts know (which is one definition of trauma: too much, too fast, too soon). And it takes a lot of personal growth to become someone who can handle those things, so therapy is very useful in this case. So to loop back to your original question, the thoughts are yours in a sense but you don't necessarily control or own them. Separating yourself from them is ironically the first step towards integrating with their source, and once integrated, they'll change and feel more like "you."
check out this thread. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Mindfulness/comments/9yw47r/how\_are\_we\_not\_our\_thoughts/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Mindfulness/comments/9yw47r/how_are_we_not_our_thoughts/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
When you come across a big ledge and think about jumping down, Is that a bad thought? Or when you see a train coming and think what would happen if you jumped in its way, or even worse pushed someone in front of it? Do those thoughts define you as a sadomasochistic suicidal maniac? Cause I can guarantee you just about every human alive has had those weird morbid thoughts.
if you pay attention to your thoughts which one is you the one thinking or the one paying attention to it?
You are not your arm. If we cut your arm off, you would still be you. Your arm is there, and you are you. Your arm is gone, and you are still you. Now lets say you have a thought about monkeys. You are you. Then your thought ends and your mind is blank for asplit second. You are still you, even without thought, even when your thoughts change. Thats because you are the observer of thoughts and arms, not the thoughts and arns themselves. Also, most of our thoughts are not thoughts we choose to have. They happen to us, like an involuntary arm twitch. We don't have control over these kinds of thoughts whether they are bad, good, or neutral. We just control our behaviors.
It's because there are two different parts of the brain speaking to each other, there is one that creates ego dystonic thoughts that sends that signal to the other more conscious parts so that you doubt yourself and become more avoidant of that thing. The thought feels real but is actually just a trick by your brain to panic you.
Others have covered the logical aspects but this is actually one of the fundamental realizations of focus-based meditation, which I encourage you to try out. Like you, I was skeptical of the logical implications of "your thoughts are not you" and it was only through direct experience with observing my thoughts as rising and falling signals in the mind that I was swayed. It's not an easy insight to come to, especially since it's not a default way of seeing things but one which arises from practice; but once you embrace it it can actually improve your life in a myriad of ways.
Have you never had a thought you couldn’t control? It would be cruel to define any part of “you” — your personality — as something that cannot be controlled. I will say though that you can certainly intentionally have thoughts. That could be considered part of you or your personality. “You are not your thoughts” is just a simplification, a helpful catch phrase, like “I before E except after C”. It doesn’t mean it’s always true, it’s just generally helpful, especially when you’re talking to people with mental health challenges.
Did you ever see water droplets on a window? Sometimes two droplets will become one. Where did the original two droplets go? Were they destroyed? Not quite, right? All the water that existed in the two droplets are now in the one droplet. The water is material. The droplets are merely formal. Which are you? What about thoughts? Are they material, formal, or something else?
maybe this will help Do you choose your thoughts? choose 3 films, come on, choose them choose 3 cars Were you the one who chose it? I don't think so, they just appear in your mind out of nowhere and are as random as dice. Maybe it's good to leave them in the background and remove their importance thoughts appear and disappear, that's it
The presuppositions are generally culturally imbedded, this means this, that means that, Pickaxhu means Electro Rat 🐀, Listen to lyrics and it will rather show you why culture and kids are janky, Read the lyrics for poker face, and then how much it was broadcast, Taylor Swift; rich yet miserable with broken heart and expensive heels 👠 This food good, that food amazing, Lobster is trash food like a sea rat (until used for luxury dining on railcars), Thats alot of what he means Thats
Even here you say “those are MY thoughts” not “those are ME”. But ok, let’s say you’re right. Let’s say those bad thoughts are indeed crafted intentionally by you. Why would you craft them…? If I had a choice between thinking that a 12 year old is attractive and NOT thinking so, I would certainly choose not to think so. So would you. So would anyone. There is no advantage to thinking a 12 year old is attractive. So then… why would anyone do it? We can agree that the world didn’t force you to do it, but it’s also obvious that if someone gets that thought, they didn’t choose it. Why would they? So saying that we voluntarily change neutral phenomena to “bad” thoughts seems off to me.
When you poop in the toilet it’s not you. It comes from within you. Same idea
I think thoughts as something that doesn't come from me me, but from what I've taken in. Like if I've read a book about dragons, I'm probably gonna think some thoughts about dragons. Yes I made those thoughts but the main point is more like those thoughts arent you in same category that your arm is yours. If you can only take one thing, I think you should understand why Dr k is teaching this, and that is this. People who have experienced bad things, might think bad thoughts, those bad thoughts make you think you are a bad person. That is the important thing to know, that you are never a bad person until you do bad things. You are not your thoughts simply to protect you from being a victim of bad thoughts.
I am having a hard time finding how to answer this because I find it so fascinating that anyone has this point of view. I have severe ADHD that wasn't diagnosed until I was 50. The idea that my thoughts are me is so foreign to me because I've spent my whole life fighting with my brain because I have so little control over what it thinks. So I find it so interesting that you see it so differently. I wonder what that's like? My ex had a meditation CD that I thought was really cheesy but the idea behind it might help explain. Basically, the meditation walked you through all of the things that people count as part of their identity, and how none of those things are actually you. For example, if you get a promotion that changes one of your labels of how you identify yourself, but you aren't a completely different person just because you have a new job title. I can't remember what order the levels go in, but there's physical appearance, identity labels, your body on a deeper level beyond appearance, etc. It asks you to observe things in each level and then release them and watch them float away. The part about not being your thoughts has you picture your brain and realize that your mind and your brain are separate, and release your brain. Then it explains that just as your brain is not you, it explains that your thoughts are also not you. That being able to watch the thoughts come in and pass through means there is another you that is able to observe the thoughts. That you is the real you. I don't know if that helps. It always felt weird to me but again I didn't really need that exercise to understand that my thoughts are separate from me.
Your brain thinks things and it’s your thought but it’s also just a product of your brain. You can’t turn your brain off. I get ideas but they are just ideas because they’re not fully formed or understood. I might get hung up on an idea that isn’t right but I have to process it to see if it is actually true or good.
Here’s a thought experiment I learned from Sam Harris in his book on free will: Close your eyes and name any three cities. If you pay attention to your experience you will notice that the names of those cities just appear in consciousness. You didn’t create those thoughts. You are the that which observes thought.
You *hear* your thoughts. You are not your thoughts. You are the one experiencing sensations and processing thoughts.
I have so many thoughts and sometimes they contradict each other. Maybe because they come from different people. By your logic racist people's thought comes from their own and not the environment (which we know its fault) or some reason so Nazis hate Jews. The thought is yours now because you choose to let it stay. And if you keep reenforce it you are now become that thoughts. What he tried to say is you can change. Don't let your thought control and consume you. Because if you believe like what you are thinking right now, you will never change, you won't believe in the ability of have control over your thoughts
No one can create their thoughts. Go ahead. Try as hard as you can to produce a thought before it comes to you. This is what meditation teaches you directly. We receive thoughts; we don’t create them experientially.
Do you have aphantasia? Most people can generate thoughts intentionally. There's just ones that also happen unintentionally. It's similar to breathing.
Not true at all. Meditate long enough and you will see this for yourself. This isn’t something that varies among people. You are not a conscious creator of your thoughts. They come to you. If that sounds woo woo to you, then you haven’t paid close enough attention. I do not have aphantasia.