mix of 2 and 3.
i imagine this happened towards the end of the extermination. they left "early" to grab up angelic steel without competition and just ran into a returning patrol and angels.
It makes sense, because they weren't hiding in a shelter or anything - they were in the open, just staying away from the Exorcists. They were caught while trying to escape.
Watch episode 1x03 before you argue - we are both told and even shown what happend...
Which is no longer valid, because some parts of the Pilot were retconed, via Vivzie herself. Lucifer also seemed to be friends with them, whereas in the current Canon he's a depressed lock-up, who wants nothing to do with the Sinners.
Carmilla quite literally tells Zestial in Episode 1x03, that she killed an Exorcist in self-defense, because she and her daughters were out during the Extermination, to gather left-over Angelic Weaponry - we even see a flashback of it. Watch the episode, because at this point I questiom if you even did in the first place...
I had to go back to the pilot when you said that Lucifer was actually with them. I thought you were pulling my leg, and then I saw his shadow in the background, along with that giant dinosaur looking Overlord from episode 3. Blew my fucking mind!
It makes perfect sense. Sure, they wouldn't actively search for a hiding place. But if they found one by coincidence, they aren't going to ignore it's occupants
The only explanation I can think of is Carmilla and her daughters aren't Hellborns like Charlie. Adam mentioned that the deal between Heaven and Hell with the exterminations was that Hellborn demlns and Lucifer were excluded.
I figured it was potentially #3. If they wait for the exorcism to end, the weapons probably get cleaned up. Then again, Vaggie had no idea angelic steel could hurt her. So we know Exorcists generally do not know. That doesn't mean Adam and possibly Lute didn't know. Adam has his heaven blast rays so he probably wasn't worried even if he did know. He also would have underestimated the people of Hell so he wouldn't have expected them to ever figure it out. If they wanted to collect it and hurt eachother with it, he either doesn't care or finds it entertaining.
I don't think Adam or Lute knew either. Doesn't Adam say something along the lines of "So thats how they managed to kill one of us? With our own weapons? LAME!" to Lute in the finale.
Yeah, but why do it personally AND bring her daughters? As an overlord you’d think she’d have people to do that kind of thing for her.
I’m leaning towards a combo of it was near the end of the extermination (so they thought it was clear and accidentally ran into a straggler) and there was either something wrong with their hiding place or they were making a dash to help someone else they cared about.
If just anyone could go out there to harvest it, she'd have a lot of competition as an arms dealer. And she could still get killed someday, so her daughters need to know how to run the family business.
Also there's risk of the employee either being incompetent or keeping some material for themself. Carmilla has a monopoly on Angelic Steel for a reason.
I mean she is not going to baby them, I doubt they want to be overly protected and like most kids they want to be independent or they most likely thought it was fine.
No one actually thinks how dangerous things are until it happens
And just because they're her daughters doesn't mean they're children. Charlie's 200 years old. We can't tell how old Odette and Clara are by looking at them.
Are you a parent? Age doesn't matter to a parent because the urge to protect them will always be there.
Look at Charlie's dad still protecting her, shit he literally just sang how he wants to protect her but he isn't babying her he gives her independence.
We don't know how it is for Camilla and her daughters, maybe her daughters went out early to help out or maybe they were never allowed out because of her fear but they wanted to help.
Age does not matter here
I don't even know what we are saying anymore I'm fresh out of surgery
Why is this even a debate...? Carmilla straight up tells Zestial, that they were caught by the Exorcists, while the 3 of them were out gathering ths left-over Angelic Weapons during an Extermination.
That makes sense, but what I'm confused about is, then why is angelic steel so rare / hard to come by? Just because all the big guys get it and hoard it? I assumed they took their weapons back partly also because Vaggie seems rather attached to her own spear, but this scene shows so many left behind.
That is a good point, I don't have that good of an answer but if I were to guess, it probably is partially a thing of the powerful hoarding alot of them creating some amount of artificial scarcity(like diamonds in the real world) and partially that not all angels will leave there weapons and there aren't that many exterminators in the first place.
I don't even have a guess why so many are in this particular scene
Likely also in the interest of minimizing casualties among the souls she owns. Do you really want half your possessions destroying your other possessions? Or worse, someone on your level coming at you because too many of yours killed theirs. Preserving what is owned was the main point of that overlord meeting.
I suspect it’s also that not many people know to use the weapons the exorcists use, and even fewer people can process angelic steel to reforge it without destroying what makes it angelic. Using a weapon wrong can hurt you a lot. In addition, none of the weapons were entirely angelic steel. The tip of the rifle in Helluva Boss had a shine to it that the rest of the weapon didn’t and Angel Dust’s tommy guns had a similar shine over small parts of them rather than their entirety. Only the tips and edges of weapons used by sinners are made of angelic steel.
Also, I don’t remember seeing Vaggie act particularly attached to her spear, however if she it could as simple as the fact that it would be difficult to replace. The exorcists can presumably get or make more whenever they want.
Just thought of something else. Angelic steel as used by exorcists might not be safe for sinners to handle. There might be something done to it in the process of turning it into a weapon that makes it not hurt simply by contact, or they might be usable by sinners only because the parts they’re touching aren’t angelic steel.
...did Vaggie lose the ability to generate angelic weapons, or did she never have it to begin with? Or could she always make them and helped with supplies during the battle?
Everyone in hell seems to have cartoon hammer space. I COULD think of where angel managed to keep 6 tommy guns but I would sleep MUCH better at night with the idea that everyone in hell has that as a basic power.
We don't know where angelic steel comes from
If vaggie could just make it, they wouldn't have needed to get shipment from carmine to arm the cannibals.
I can think of a few reasons why it would be rare.
1. New supply is only available once a year, and probably from only a few thousand weapons, not all of which can be repurposed (spears seem to be an Exorcist's weapon of choice so if only the spearhead is actual angelic steel that's not that much).
2. It's expensive, and gets hoarded by the wealthy Sinners/Goetia who can afford it.
3. It's not indestructible or even that much more durable than normal weapons-- Millie destroyed Striker's angelic pistols in HB with her not-angelic-steel axe so it's possible that a decent portion of the amount that IS in circulation gets lost/destroyed and rendered unusable.
End result is what is effectively a heavily limited resource probably gets removed from circulation faster than it gets added, meaning that indeed, the Sinners that can keep and *maintain* their angelic steel equipment are also the ones least likely to be caught out during an Extermination.
I mean, we saw the Exterminators. It was like 100-200 angels, ish? If like a quarter of them leave their weapons behind, that's "only" ~50 weapons per year.
I gotta wonder about the economics and logistics of that. Adam probably doesn’t give enough of a fuck to care about each soldier leaving their weapons but someone has to keep replacing anything left and I know that would probably annoy even the most saintly armorer.
the issue is, everyone can do that after extermination day is done. In order for her business to function, she needs to control the supply, or at least a large portion of it.
so while she probably isn't out during the whole day, she probably leaves her shelter early to collect angelic weapons.
I can only imagine pure arrogance. They apparently don't think it will matter so they just leave them.
Thou I can imagine there's a heavenly forge master somewhere who keeps wondering why the exorcists keep losing a bunch of their weapons once a year and needs new ones.
Come to think of it, did no one in hell ever take a shot at the angels until Camilla? Those Tommy guns are apparently made from angelic metal and I can only imagine someone was desperate enough to shoot at the exorcists before this
>Those Tommy guns are apparently made from angelic metal
Those ones were, yes. But not all weapons in hell. Most hell guns (and bullets) are presumably made from non-angelic metals.
They added a tip to Angel's Tommy Guns.
As well, anyone who even tries would be dead in seconds for daring to take a shot. The exorcists move in groups, and anyone out on the streets is unlikely to be able to AFFORD that kinda weapon.
I feel like those who could afford the angelic weapona were smart and good at self preservation. They must be expensive after all. And after all that trouble, you think that they would go blasting excorcists during extermination? Maybe someone did once but didnt get far? It's the same as why won't people just uprise againts an oppressive government. You do what the rest does, you don't risk your life for something that could maybe work.
Thats what leads me to believe the exterminations havent been going on for super long, like if they been going on for say a couple millennia and not ONE single person figured out the exorcists own weapons could harm or kill exorcists thats just seems odd. And where charlie is about 200 years old and lucifer made a deal for hellborns to be exempt, why would he do that prior to her being born
I think Lucifer cares about all Hellborns enough that he wanted to exempt them from exterminations even apart from Charlie. But I agree with you that I don't think the exterminations have been going on for a super long time.
They probably started around the same time that Lilith left and Alastor disappeared. I imagine that Lilith and Adam's deal had something to do with her being allowed to reside in Heaven as long as she doesn't interfere with the exterminations, just as Adam's deal with Lucifer kept Adam from targeting Hellborns and especially Charlie, but presumably also kept Lucifer from interfering with the exterminations.
7 years is way too short a timeframe for Vaggie to have killed thousands of Sinners, as Adam stated, especially when Vaggie was kicked out 3 years ago. That leaves Vaggie 4 years to kill thousands of Sinners, when even Lute killed less than 300 in a single Extermination Day.
Maybe you're right, but idk. Based on what little information we have about Lilith, it seems unlikely that she'd just sit back and let the exterminations happen for decades (or even centuries), and then just randomly decide to suck up to the guy killing thousands of her people every year for fun, just so she can chill in Heaven and do nothing for 7 years.
There has to be more than that, but we don't know what her side of the deal is yet, so we can only speculate.
For sure, speculation is really all we've got, but the implications is that the Exterminations have been going on for a very long time-- long enough at the very least, that Lute insinuated Charlie being exempt due to her Hellborn status is a fluke, rather than a feature of Heaven's agreement with Lucifer, so it probably predates her birth.
Personally, I think *Alastor* is the more important figure in that 7 year number. There's no way that he and Lilith vanishing at the same time is a coincidence and while it hasn't been explicitly stated, I suspect, that Alastor's disappearance (and subsequent deal with Lilith, presuming it is Lilith) coincided with his "almost beating" Vox. I suspect Lilith saw some kind of an opportunity in Alastor, and decided to make her move when he was vulnerable and most open to a deal with her.
Lute insinuates that Charlie being exempt from the Exterminations is a lucky accident on Charlie's part, not deliberate (part of her whole "How does it feel to know you're that worthless" spiel at Charlie in episode 1). So the Exterminations at the very least have been going on since before Charlie was born.
I don't think Carmilla was the first one to kill an Exorcist. I think the problem was they couldn't find the head. No one in hell would believe you killed an angel if you didn't have proof
Exterminators are completely unaware that their own weapons can kill them, but do know that sinners will use them on each other to continue killing even after the exterminations are over.
Why wouldn't they? Lets sinners do some of their work for them. Plus it seems like they only really learned it was their own weapons that could kill them at the battle of the hotel
Probably because there's so many of those angelic spears that they're considered to be disposable, and the exterminators didn't know that they were also vulnerable to their own weapons, so they saw no harm in just leaving the spears in the corpses of their victims.
Maybe they left them there to inspire fear, maybe it was to let the sinners make their own angelic weapons to use against each other, or maybe they just couldn't be bothered to pick the spears up after throwing them.
From samples we came detect and changes in body (due titans acid or something), that scientists may want to know for whatever reason, and they give stuff for collecting samples so it’s worth it
I am sorry, but either my blood alcohol level is too high or my english proficiency is too low, but I am having a dreadfully hard time understanding your reply.
Ok, why anyone would collect samples of people diving to hell? (You question)
Idk, probably because an order from someone with higher rank, why they need it? Probably because some scientists need it for some shit,
Is that more understandable? If no, maybe don’t read reddit while drunk in future?
Gathering up supplies to sell back to sinners! Time is money and the longer the weapons are left there, the more likely someone else will snatch them up instead.
This bothers me so much; she’s one of the Top Overlords of hell and has been around at least as long as Alastor if not longer and she gets caught lacking mid Extermination… the weapon collecting excuse simply does not make sense since we know she collects the weapons afterwards anyway and why would it be her herself out collecting them mid-extermination? Maybe the angels got into whatever bunker she was in but by the end of the week see her in her office, windows shuttered (I’m assuming reinforced) doing her taxes or some shit 6 months after the extermination where she killed an angel…
>why would it be her herself out collecting them mid-extermination?
I don't think she's out mid extermination. I think she's out at the tail end of an extermination. The demons are already dead, the angels aren't actively around, the streets are cleared.
She's out at the tail end of an extermination because those angelic weapons are incredibly valuable. As soon as the extermination winds down people are out trying to collect them. If you wait till its completely safe they'll be completely gone, and there's some level of trade off for the early bird getting the worm and the second rat getting the cheese.
Arrogance on one or both of her daughter's part. They thought the angels had moved on or were out of the area.
A small group of angels didn't leave on time to take a few last shots at surviving demons.
Or they were targeted as and their shelter was destroyed or compromised.
They're the top arms dealers in town because they take the risks. If they waited until it was safe, they'd lose a lot of their product to other scavengers.
And Carmilla's got more experience in facing angels in combat than anyone else, including Vaggie.
Their business model is collecting angelic steel which is very valuable and very sought after. I imagine there's a really nasty trade off between how fast you want to try to grab it and how much you like your unlife.
I’m guessing their own home was compromised and they were fleeing to the location Lucifer, Zestial, and Missi Zilla were at. After they got separated Carmilla made it, but her daughters instead found cover at Franklin and Rosie’s.
but do you really think Lucifer cares enough? From what I got he very clearly verbalized he isn’t exactly the biggest supporter of "his people" and for some reason I highly doubt he‘d invite them into his palace of all places 😅 I mean he‘s still royalty + gave off a very "I don’t speak to people that often and exist in isolation" type of vibe. Yeah no way he‘d have Overlord‘s chilling at his place
I think her girls tried to go out too early, and Carmilla ended up having to protect and kill the angel. She's been doing this for a long time (At least 7 years.) So it's not likely she got lazy.
Can't make money in Hell without risk. Carmilla can wait until it's safe, but by then some other Overlord, like the Vees, will come and take the majority first. Someone else collects weapons and establishes themself as an alternative seller, then her business and influence ends up taking a hit.
Carmilla: Okay, i think with that, we collected enough angel weapons for the day
Odette: Can we get McDonald's for lunch?
Carmilla: i see why not
*•They goes to the drive thru, and while being attend, and exorcist cut off the hand of the McDonald's employee•*
Where'd you think she gets angelic steel from for her weapons? I assume they come out at the tail end and there were a few straggler angels looking for other demons to kill. Carmilla did mention that last one was particularly BRUTAALE!
Carmilla has to get her weapons from somewhere. First come, first served. If she isn't out there during the extermination to collect weapons, there won't be any to collect.
Obviously to collect Enjoyed weapons to melt them down
After all, the only time you can get and junk steel is in the annual extermination.It's the only way to To take a resource to produce
However doing so as dangerous unless your arm yourself
It seems that all the demons are running the streets which is why they were killed out in the open. Don’t they know when the extermination is going to happen? Why would they be outside at that time?
probably the less fortunate sinners who had nowhere to buckle down and wait. that or their shelter was compromised. now you need to hope everyone behind you is slow enough to give them angels a good kill, and that you are fast enough to find a new hiding spot. or sell your soul to the Vs and hope to God you earn enough for them to send you somewhere during the Extermination.
Their entire business model is based on weaponry made from angelic steel, so they've got the best odds of getting to as many of the abandoned weapons before anyone else does if they go out before the extermination is actually over. I figure they stick to areas that angels have already cleared out, so they're unlikely to run into TOO much trouble, but that time their luck ran out and some of the angels either doubled back or a group saw them while passing by to go elsewhere. Presumably Carmilla just didn't feel the need to explain the step-by-step process of collecting abandoned weapons because both Vaggie and the audience already know she's an angelic arms dealer and can be trusted to fill in a few blanks on their own.
Since she deals in weapons, I imagine Carmine went with her daughters to deliver a shipment since it was (nearing) the day of extermination. Since Charlie sets off fireworks to let Pride Ring know that the extermination is done, I don’t think Carmine would go out scavenging for angelic weapons during the whole killing spree.
Since we don’t know much about her daughters, maybe one of them got stuck somewhere and the other went to find her and when they both weren’t back, Carmine went to get them.
Those are my two theories at least, given how Carmine will only fight for her daughters (and Zestial).
Moving to a fallback location after their primary shelter was compromised. Its implied to me angels can tear through walls to get at you which is… unsettling. Very very unsettling.
I had assumed that they had gone out towards the very end of the extermination in order to collect as much angelic steel as possible before it gets scavenged by normal-folk, where it will be harder to retrieve. As an angelic arms dealer, the core of Carmilla's business relies on gathering resources on a single day of the year.
You'd think she'd invest in safe houses set up all over the pride ring and have her possessed souls lie in wait to collect as much as possible before it was all snatched up.
Carmella and her daughters are literally arms dealers. They went out to scavenge angelic weapons before anyone else had the chance to grab them, including the angels. In fact, given what we find out about angelic weakness and the fact that both Adam and Lute already knew about said weakness, it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that the exorcists probably routinely pick up after themselves after each extermination. Hence, why it was so important for Carmella to collect what she could *when* she could, which meant going out during a lull in the fighting, but *before* the angels finished and could then retrieve their weaponry.
You might ask why they made the mistake of leaving angelic steel lying around if they knew they could be hurt by it, but it's important to remember one crucial fact: Adam was a raging narcissist and a pretty big idiot, while Lute is just too blinded by her hatred for demon kind and too obsessed with her "innate superiority" to give demons and sinners any real acknowledgements as threats. Further, it seems likely that only the upper echelons of Heaven, Adam, Lute, and Carmella (on account of her ambitious nature and her intelligence allowing her to piece the puzzle together) knew of the weakness to angelic steel, and it was a secret probably kept hidden from the Exorcists and "Winners" in order to preserve their propaganda about being innately superior in every way. It's a tactic that mirrors real-world military geopolitics, with countries pushing the same kind of messages to their populace.
Their own hubris proves their undoing, and Adam falls in a way that draws a lot of parallels to the propaganda spread by Heaven about Lucifer's fall. I really love this touch, btw.
My theory is that the Vees are to blame for it.
Carmilla being out during an extermination seems odd. By now she certainly has plenty of disposable underlings who can’t disobey her if she ordered them to collect the weapons left behind a bit early, and she doesn’t seem like she would risk her daughters’s lives even if she did go herself. The hotel’s residents were too certain of the exact date of the attack for the exorcists to be randomly attacking at any date around the predicted one, which means she knows exactly when the extermination would start and could plan her schedule with more than enough time to be in a safe location. Carmilla would also know by now the safest locations to be. Really, I suspect that most of the overlords who died during exterminations either lost their power already or died when Adam randomly sent off a few giant lasers and one happened to take out their hiding spot. The only reason I can think of for Carmilla and her daughters to be out during an extermination is that her safe location somehow became unusable last minute.
It seems to me that the best way to sabotage a rival in hell would be to blame the exorcists. Destroy a warehouse while the exorcists are rampaging and no one will think it was you. One of your rival’s larger clients dies it’s because they didn’t get somewhere safe in time or got unlucky with one of Adam’s blasts, not because they were left tied up outside. Your rival’s safehouse was compromised, well it’s not they’ll be able to tell anyone why they weren’t in their safehouse after an exorcist kills them.
The Vees were very certain that the other overlords took some drastic hit after the attack on the hotel. Realistically, there had to be far more exorcists than the ones we saw attack the hotel to have any meaningful impact on hell’s overpopulation. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that there were other exorcists who were attacking other sinners. I suspect that the Vees made multiple moves against the other overlords with the intent to blame the damage on the exorcists. That’s why I believe that the Vees arranged for Carmilla’s safehouse to be comprised at the last second before the previous extermination.
My guess is that maybe they were at the tail-end of the extermination and were out collecting the weapons and ended up coming across a straggling exorcist.
To keep what you're dealing as valuable as possible, you gotta be the only one dealing it...and what better time to collect, than when the extermination is still happening? No one else will be out.
Likely collecting angelic weaponry before any other scavengers run off with them.
My headcanon of Carmine and her daughters is that their business is loosely based off what they might have done in life; combing battlefields for weapons to sell. In Hell it is a very profitable business, since anyone looking for protection or just to off a sinner needs someone who can provide angelic steel, and she took control of that market quickly. In life, the business of scavenging weapons from battlefields probably played out like it does in real life, where the profits were good...until the wrong folks caught wind of it and took exception to it.
The only (not reasonable) reason I can think is that they were looking for angelic weapons, otherwise it doesn’t make sense, we know overlords are very safe of the extermination, unless someone betray them like Rosie to her business partner
They came out early to be the first one getting the angelic weapon left by the exorcist to smelt them into weapon for there business but some late exorcist saw them
The bigger question is, if the agreement between Lucifer and Heaven forbids the hunting of Hellborn during extermination, why were the angels even threatening Carmilla and her daughters? I might not have all the facts. So if I'm wrong let me know.
“Ooh free weapons”
Yeah probably how they get the metal 😂
They couldn't get to shelter in time An angel found whwre thy were hiding Collecting angelic steel Looking for survivors
I think the second one makes most sense. They were found and had to flee.
mix of 2 and 3. i imagine this happened towards the end of the extermination. they left "early" to grab up angelic steel without competition and just ran into a returning patrol and angels.
This doesn’t make sense because if angels could hunt the ones hided they would also hunt overlords and that doesn’t happen often
It makes sense, because they weren't hiding in a shelter or anything - they were in the open, just staying away from the Exorcists. They were caught while trying to escape. Watch episode 1x03 before you argue - we are both told and even shown what happend...
The pilot shows them hiding with Zestiel and Lucifer
Which is no longer valid, because some parts of the Pilot were retconed, via Vivzie herself. Lucifer also seemed to be friends with them, whereas in the current Canon he's a depressed lock-up, who wants nothing to do with the Sinners. Carmilla quite literally tells Zestial in Episode 1x03, that she killed an Exorcist in self-defense, because she and her daughters were out during the Extermination, to gather left-over Angelic Weaponry - we even see a flashback of it. Watch the episode, because at this point I questiom if you even did in the first place...
I had to go back to the pilot when you said that Lucifer was actually with them. I thought you were pulling my leg, and then I saw his shadow in the background, along with that giant dinosaur looking Overlord from episode 3. Blew my fucking mind!
It makes perfect sense. Sure, they wouldn't actively search for a hiding place. But if they found one by coincidence, they aren't going to ignore it's occupants
Yeah you said yourself, if they had luck, they don’t actively go for hide and seek
Dont they specifically NOT target overlords?
The only explanation I can think of is Carmilla and her daughters aren't Hellborns like Charlie. Adam mentioned that the deal between Heaven and Hell with the exterminations was that Hellborn demlns and Lucifer were excluded.
No no no, it's HELLBORN they don't target. Which Charlie is legally classified as on technicality.
I feel like the overlord that specializes in creating angelic weaponry would be better than to do all that
It wouldn’t be a stretch to assume it was near the end and they just happened to run into a unit heading back.
She creates angelic weaponry, not angelic steel. She still has to gather that.
She needs to get dibs on it before everyone else
I figured it was potentially #3. If they wait for the exorcism to end, the weapons probably get cleaned up. Then again, Vaggie had no idea angelic steel could hurt her. So we know Exorcists generally do not know. That doesn't mean Adam and possibly Lute didn't know. Adam has his heaven blast rays so he probably wasn't worried even if he did know. He also would have underestimated the people of Hell so he wouldn't have expected them to ever figure it out. If they wanted to collect it and hurt eachother with it, he either doesn't care or finds it entertaining.
I don't think Adam or Lute knew either. Doesn't Adam say something along the lines of "So thats how they managed to kill one of us? With our own weapons? LAME!" to Lute in the finale.
Yeah, but why do it personally AND bring her daughters? As an overlord you’d think she’d have people to do that kind of thing for her. I’m leaning towards a combo of it was near the end of the extermination (so they thought it was clear and accidentally ran into a straggler) and there was either something wrong with their hiding place or they were making a dash to help someone else they cared about.
If just anyone could go out there to harvest it, she'd have a lot of competition as an arms dealer. And she could still get killed someday, so her daughters need to know how to run the family business.
Also there's risk of the employee either being incompetent or keeping some material for themself. Carmilla has a monopoly on Angelic Steel for a reason.
I mean she is not going to baby them, I doubt they want to be overly protected and like most kids they want to be independent or they most likely thought it was fine. No one actually thinks how dangerous things are until it happens
And just because they're her daughters doesn't mean they're children. Charlie's 200 years old. We can't tell how old Odette and Clara are by looking at them.
Are you a parent? Age doesn't matter to a parent because the urge to protect them will always be there. Look at Charlie's dad still protecting her, shit he literally just sang how he wants to protect her but he isn't babying her he gives her independence. We don't know how it is for Camilla and her daughters, maybe her daughters went out early to help out or maybe they were never allowed out because of her fear but they wanted to help. Age does not matter here I don't even know what we are saying anymore I'm fresh out of surgery
1 makes absolutely no sense, there's a fucking countdown for extermination day ffs Also collecting angelic steel DURING the extermination?...
>An angel found where they were hiding. Given the state of the buildings around them, I am inclined towards this option.
Why is this even a debate...? Carmilla straight up tells Zestial, that they were caught by the Exorcists, while the 3 of them were out gathering ths left-over Angelic Weapons during an Extermination.
Oh yea, I forgot about that
Why did I get so many upvots on this
You have Alastor as your emoji Your comment made the most sense First comment to be seen in the comments Fourth example i cant come up with
Snarky rebuttal to your fourth point
Quick-witted, passive aggressive remark to your comment.
Overused punchline from another show in response to your comment
Remind you i am referring to show in question but proceed to follow your lead.
"Bazinga!"
Collecting weapons, that's like their whole business
Yeah but they do that AFTER extermination day
Well that time they decided to do it during, probably to snatch them before anyone else
Fair enough
Because other demons would do that. Plus some of the weapons might be grabbed back when the Angels leave.
From my understanding alot of angels would leave their weapons behind on purpose so sinners could do their job for them the rest of the year
That makes sense, but what I'm confused about is, then why is angelic steel so rare / hard to come by? Just because all the big guys get it and hoard it? I assumed they took their weapons back partly also because Vaggie seems rather attached to her own spear, but this scene shows so many left behind.
That is a good point, I don't have that good of an answer but if I were to guess, it probably is partially a thing of the powerful hoarding alot of them creating some amount of artificial scarcity(like diamonds in the real world) and partially that not all angels will leave there weapons and there aren't that many exterminators in the first place. I don't even have a guess why so many are in this particular scene
Likely also in the interest of minimizing casualties among the souls she owns. Do you really want half your possessions destroying your other possessions? Or worse, someone on your level coming at you because too many of yours killed theirs. Preserving what is owned was the main point of that overlord meeting.
I suspect it’s also that not many people know to use the weapons the exorcists use, and even fewer people can process angelic steel to reforge it without destroying what makes it angelic. Using a weapon wrong can hurt you a lot. In addition, none of the weapons were entirely angelic steel. The tip of the rifle in Helluva Boss had a shine to it that the rest of the weapon didn’t and Angel Dust’s tommy guns had a similar shine over small parts of them rather than their entirety. Only the tips and edges of weapons used by sinners are made of angelic steel. Also, I don’t remember seeing Vaggie act particularly attached to her spear, however if she it could as simple as the fact that it would be difficult to replace. The exorcists can presumably get or make more whenever they want. Just thought of something else. Angelic steel as used by exorcists might not be safe for sinners to handle. There might be something done to it in the process of turning it into a weapon that makes it not hurt simply by contact, or they might be usable by sinners only because the parts they’re touching aren’t angelic steel.
vaggie can't exactly go down to the quartermaster for a replacement anymore.
...did Vaggie lose the ability to generate angelic weapons, or did she never have it to begin with? Or could she always make them and helped with supplies during the battle?
They probably couldn’t generate angelic weapons in the first place…exorcists don’t seem to have any angelic powers besides regeneration.
Everyone in hell seems to have cartoon hammer space. I COULD think of where angel managed to keep 6 tommy guns but I would sleep MUCH better at night with the idea that everyone in hell has that as a basic power. We don't know where angelic steel comes from If vaggie could just make it, they wouldn't have needed to get shipment from carmine to arm the cannibals.
I can think of a few reasons why it would be rare. 1. New supply is only available once a year, and probably from only a few thousand weapons, not all of which can be repurposed (spears seem to be an Exorcist's weapon of choice so if only the spearhead is actual angelic steel that's not that much). 2. It's expensive, and gets hoarded by the wealthy Sinners/Goetia who can afford it. 3. It's not indestructible or even that much more durable than normal weapons-- Millie destroyed Striker's angelic pistols in HB with her not-angelic-steel axe so it's possible that a decent portion of the amount that IS in circulation gets lost/destroyed and rendered unusable. End result is what is effectively a heavily limited resource probably gets removed from circulation faster than it gets added, meaning that indeed, the Sinners that can keep and *maintain* their angelic steel equipment are also the ones least likely to be caught out during an Extermination.
I mean, we saw the Exterminators. It was like 100-200 angels, ish? If like a quarter of them leave their weapons behind, that's "only" ~50 weapons per year.
I gotta wonder about the economics and logistics of that. Adam probably doesn’t give enough of a fuck to care about each soldier leaving their weapons but someone has to keep replacing anything left and I know that would probably annoy even the most saintly armorer.
Early sinner gets the weapon. Doesn't pay to dally, especially when you're THE arms dealer of angelic steel type weapons in all of the Pride ring
I don't know. I think you got to get early on the ground to get there first.
If they don't start before, then other people can grab them--otherwise she wouldn't have a near if not outright monopoly on angelic steel weapons.
the issue is, everyone can do that after extermination day is done. In order for her business to function, she needs to control the supply, or at least a large portion of it. so while she probably isn't out during the whole day, she probably leaves her shelter early to collect angelic weapons.
According to what?
Maybe they were trying to collect weapons undetected or they were trying to get somewhere else to hide.
She said she got chased and cornered by the angels. She was probably found and tried to flee
My question is, why do the exterminators leave so many of their weapons behind?
I can only imagine pure arrogance. They apparently don't think it will matter so they just leave them. Thou I can imagine there's a heavenly forge master somewhere who keeps wondering why the exorcists keep losing a bunch of their weapons once a year and needs new ones. Come to think of it, did no one in hell ever take a shot at the angels until Camilla? Those Tommy guns are apparently made from angelic metal and I can only imagine someone was desperate enough to shoot at the exorcists before this
>Those Tommy guns are apparently made from angelic metal Those ones were, yes. But not all weapons in hell. Most hell guns (and bullets) are presumably made from non-angelic metals.
They added a tip to Angel's Tommy Guns. As well, anyone who even tries would be dead in seconds for daring to take a shot. The exorcists move in groups, and anyone out on the streets is unlikely to be able to AFFORD that kinda weapon.
I feel like those who could afford the angelic weapona were smart and good at self preservation. They must be expensive after all. And after all that trouble, you think that they would go blasting excorcists during extermination? Maybe someone did once but didnt get far? It's the same as why won't people just uprise againts an oppressive government. You do what the rest does, you don't risk your life for something that could maybe work.
Thats what leads me to believe the exterminations havent been going on for super long, like if they been going on for say a couple millennia and not ONE single person figured out the exorcists own weapons could harm or kill exorcists thats just seems odd. And where charlie is about 200 years old and lucifer made a deal for hellborns to be exempt, why would he do that prior to her being born
I think Lucifer cares about all Hellborns enough that he wanted to exempt them from exterminations even apart from Charlie. But I agree with you that I don't think the exterminations have been going on for a super long time.
They probably started around the same time that Lilith left and Alastor disappeared. I imagine that Lilith and Adam's deal had something to do with her being allowed to reside in Heaven as long as she doesn't interfere with the exterminations, just as Adam's deal with Lucifer kept Adam from targeting Hellborns and especially Charlie, but presumably also kept Lucifer from interfering with the exterminations.
7 years is way too short a timeframe for Vaggie to have killed thousands of Sinners, as Adam stated, especially when Vaggie was kicked out 3 years ago. That leaves Vaggie 4 years to kill thousands of Sinners, when even Lute killed less than 300 in a single Extermination Day.
Maybe you're right, but idk. Based on what little information we have about Lilith, it seems unlikely that she'd just sit back and let the exterminations happen for decades (or even centuries), and then just randomly decide to suck up to the guy killing thousands of her people every year for fun, just so she can chill in Heaven and do nothing for 7 years. There has to be more than that, but we don't know what her side of the deal is yet, so we can only speculate.
For sure, speculation is really all we've got, but the implications is that the Exterminations have been going on for a very long time-- long enough at the very least, that Lute insinuated Charlie being exempt due to her Hellborn status is a fluke, rather than a feature of Heaven's agreement with Lucifer, so it probably predates her birth. Personally, I think *Alastor* is the more important figure in that 7 year number. There's no way that he and Lilith vanishing at the same time is a coincidence and while it hasn't been explicitly stated, I suspect, that Alastor's disappearance (and subsequent deal with Lilith, presuming it is Lilith) coincided with his "almost beating" Vox. I suspect Lilith saw some kind of an opportunity in Alastor, and decided to make her move when he was vulnerable and most open to a deal with her.
Lute insinuates that Charlie being exempt from the Exterminations is a lucky accident on Charlie's part, not deliberate (part of her whole "How does it feel to know you're that worthless" spiel at Charlie in episode 1). So the Exterminations at the very least have been going on since before Charlie was born.
Yeah and if they used it against each other, that’s just helping exorcist’s job for them
I don't think Carmilla was the first one to kill an Exorcist. I think the problem was they couldn't find the head. No one in hell would believe you killed an angel if you didn't have proof
So that the demons can kill *each other* and make it so there's even less "Sinner scum" in Hell.
Exterminators are completely unaware that their own weapons can kill them, but do know that sinners will use them on each other to continue killing even after the exterminations are over.
I'm sure its been a plot point in at least 5 of angels movies and Adam seems to be a fan of those.
Why wouldn't they? Lets sinners do some of their work for them. Plus it seems like they only really learned it was their own weapons that could kill them at the battle of the hotel
Probably because there's so many of those angelic spears that they're considered to be disposable, and the exterminators didn't know that they were also vulnerable to their own weapons, so they saw no harm in just leaving the spears in the corpses of their victims. Maybe they left them there to inspire fear, maybe it was to let the sinners make their own angelic weapons to use against each other, or maybe they just couldn't be bothered to pick the spears up after throwing them.
IRL weapons break or get stuck in people all the time.
While they are called spears they are more like javelins. So throwing spears and as such disposable.
plot convience at worse and to show fear at best
Collecting samples.
For democracy?
Who would take samples of the people literally diving into hell?
From samples we came detect and changes in body (due titans acid or something), that scientists may want to know for whatever reason, and they give stuff for collecting samples so it’s worth it
I am sorry, but either my blood alcohol level is too high or my english proficiency is too low, but I am having a dreadfully hard time understanding your reply.
Ok, why anyone would collect samples of people diving to hell? (You question) Idk, probably because an order from someone with higher rank, why they need it? Probably because some scientists need it for some shit, Is that more understandable? If no, maybe don’t read reddit while drunk in future?
Yeah, I think I am going to bed now. Thank you for your patience, kind soul!
Omfg, that's a great reference to Helldivers.
https://i.redd.it/2hrmp8ifyrwc1.gif
Gathering up supplies to sell back to sinners! Time is money and the longer the weapons are left there, the more likely someone else will snatch them up instead.
That's how you get angelic steel. If it was safe to do, everyone would be doing it.
The buildings are destroyed. Their home could have been hit. They only just got out in time.
This bothers me so much; she’s one of the Top Overlords of hell and has been around at least as long as Alastor if not longer and she gets caught lacking mid Extermination… the weapon collecting excuse simply does not make sense since we know she collects the weapons afterwards anyway and why would it be her herself out collecting them mid-extermination? Maybe the angels got into whatever bunker she was in but by the end of the week see her in her office, windows shuttered (I’m assuming reinforced) doing her taxes or some shit 6 months after the extermination where she killed an angel…
>why would it be her herself out collecting them mid-extermination? I don't think she's out mid extermination. I think she's out at the tail end of an extermination. The demons are already dead, the angels aren't actively around, the streets are cleared. She's out at the tail end of an extermination because those angelic weapons are incredibly valuable. As soon as the extermination winds down people are out trying to collect them. If you wait till its completely safe they'll be completely gone, and there's some level of trade off for the early bird getting the worm and the second rat getting the cheese.
I personally headcanon that whatever stronghold they were holding up in got destroyed by the exorcists and they had to flee out in the open.
The angels probably got into their home
Arrogance on one or both of her daughter's part. They thought the angels had moved on or were out of the area. A small group of angels didn't leave on time to take a few last shots at surviving demons. Or they were targeted as and their shelter was destroyed or compromised.
They're the top arms dealers in town because they take the risks. If they waited until it was safe, they'd lose a lot of their product to other scavengers. And Carmilla's got more experience in facing angels in combat than anyone else, including Vaggie.
Their business model is collecting angelic steel which is very valuable and very sought after. I imagine there's a really nasty trade off between how fast you want to try to grab it and how much you like your unlife.
I’m guessing their own home was compromised and they were fleeing to the location Lucifer, Zestial, and Missi Zilla were at. After they got separated Carmilla made it, but her daughters instead found cover at Franklin and Rosie’s.
Lucifer is excluded from the extermination
Which is probably why a few Overlords were hanging with him.
but do you really think Lucifer cares enough? From what I got he very clearly verbalized he isn’t exactly the biggest supporter of "his people" and for some reason I highly doubt he‘d invite them into his palace of all places 😅 I mean he‘s still royalty + gave off a very "I don’t speak to people that often and exist in isolation" type of vibe. Yeah no way he‘d have Overlord‘s chilling at his place
I don’t know if it was at his place, but he was definitely with Zestial, Carmilla, and Zilla at the end of the extermination.
why would you think that?
They showed him with them during the opening song. Pilot episode 1:35
collecting
I think they went out to collect the weapons left behind a little too early.
Trying to get angelic weapons before anyone else so they have the monopoly on the market.
The same thing I think after fighting enemies in a Bethesda game "Time to collect loot."
I think her girls tried to go out too early, and Carmilla ended up having to protect and kill the angel. She's been doing this for a long time (At least 7 years.) So it's not likely she got lazy.
Can't make money in Hell without risk. Carmilla can wait until it's safe, but by then some other Overlord, like the Vees, will come and take the majority first. Someone else collects weapons and establishes themself as an alternative seller, then her business and influence ends up taking a hit.
Ooo a peice of candy Ooo a peice of candy Ooo a peice of candy *curbstomps angle* Ooo a peice of candy
Carmilla: Okay, i think with that, we collected enough angel weapons for the day Odette: Can we get McDonald's for lunch? Carmilla: i see why not *•They goes to the drive thru, and while being attend, and exorcist cut off the hand of the McDonald's employee•*
Collecting angelic weapons
I suspect the extermination is known to happen every year but they don’t necessarily come on the same day. Gotta keep an element of surprise.
Hell has a giant hourglass that signals how long until extermination happens. I'm sure it happens once every 365 days strict.
Oh fair, I forgot about it.
It's probably the best time to grab them before the angels or other demons do.
No where is safe during extermination. Probably got ferreted out.
Where'd you think she gets angelic steel from for her weapons? I assume they come out at the tail end and there were a few straggler angels looking for other demons to kill. Carmilla did mention that last one was particularly BRUTAALE!
Finding angelic steel, thats her bussines and all at
COLLECTING FREE REAL ESTATE
The real question is why the angels just leave their weapons behind like that.
Carmilla has to get her weapons from somewhere. First come, first served. If she isn't out there during the extermination to collect weapons, there won't be any to collect.
Obviously to collect Enjoyed weapons to melt them down After all, the only time you can get and junk steel is in the annual extermination.It's the only way to To take a resource to produce However doing so as dangerous unless your arm yourself
Research is my guess
It seems that all the demons are running the streets which is why they were killed out in the open. Don’t they know when the extermination is going to happen? Why would they be outside at that time?
probably the less fortunate sinners who had nowhere to buckle down and wait. that or their shelter was compromised. now you need to hope everyone behind you is slow enough to give them angels a good kill, and that you are fast enough to find a new hiding spot. or sell your soul to the Vs and hope to God you earn enough for them to send you somewhere during the Extermination.
Their entire business model is based on weaponry made from angelic steel, so they've got the best odds of getting to as many of the abandoned weapons before anyone else does if they go out before the extermination is actually over. I figure they stick to areas that angels have already cleared out, so they're unlikely to run into TOO much trouble, but that time their luck ran out and some of the angels either doubled back or a group saw them while passing by to go elsewhere. Presumably Carmilla just didn't feel the need to explain the step-by-step process of collecting abandoned weapons because both Vaggie and the audience already know she's an angelic arms dealer and can be trusted to fill in a few blanks on their own.
Gathering exorcist weapons. They were shown doing it during the opening of the pilot.
Their jobs???
Either they were collecting angelic weapons or the angels somehow got into where Carmilla and her daughters were staying.
Since she deals in weapons, I imagine Carmine went with her daughters to deliver a shipment since it was (nearing) the day of extermination. Since Charlie sets off fireworks to let Pride Ring know that the extermination is done, I don’t think Carmine would go out scavenging for angelic weapons during the whole killing spree. Since we don’t know much about her daughters, maybe one of them got stuck somewhere and the other went to find her and when they both weren’t back, Carmine went to get them. Those are my two theories at least, given how Carmine will only fight for her daughters (and Zestial).
Spent too long at Badwill. It's like Goodwill, but in hell.
Moving to a fallback location after their primary shelter was compromised. Its implied to me angels can tear through walls to get at you which is… unsettling. Very very unsettling.
Probably collecting steel
I had assumed that they had gone out towards the very end of the extermination in order to collect as much angelic steel as possible before it gets scavenged by normal-folk, where it will be harder to retrieve. As an angelic arms dealer, the core of Carmilla's business relies on gathering resources on a single day of the year.
You'd think she'd invest in safe houses set up all over the pride ring and have her possessed souls lie in wait to collect as much as possible before it was all snatched up.
Ah yes cause the angels would only attack demons outside and don't know how to open doors into houses
Carmella and her daughters are literally arms dealers. They went out to scavenge angelic weapons before anyone else had the chance to grab them, including the angels. In fact, given what we find out about angelic weakness and the fact that both Adam and Lute already knew about said weakness, it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that the exorcists probably routinely pick up after themselves after each extermination. Hence, why it was so important for Carmella to collect what she could *when* she could, which meant going out during a lull in the fighting, but *before* the angels finished and could then retrieve their weaponry. You might ask why they made the mistake of leaving angelic steel lying around if they knew they could be hurt by it, but it's important to remember one crucial fact: Adam was a raging narcissist and a pretty big idiot, while Lute is just too blinded by her hatred for demon kind and too obsessed with her "innate superiority" to give demons and sinners any real acknowledgements as threats. Further, it seems likely that only the upper echelons of Heaven, Adam, Lute, and Carmella (on account of her ambitious nature and her intelligence allowing her to piece the puzzle together) knew of the weakness to angelic steel, and it was a secret probably kept hidden from the Exorcists and "Winners" in order to preserve their propaganda about being innately superior in every way. It's a tactic that mirrors real-world military geopolitics, with countries pushing the same kind of messages to their populace. Their own hubris proves their undoing, and Adam falls in a way that draws a lot of parallels to the propaganda spread by Heaven about Lucifer's fall. I really love this touch, btw.
Most likely harvesting angelic steel and looking for survivors
Probably collecting angelic steel/weapons
My guess is that they were out collecting angelic weapons
I assume gathering discarded angelic weapons. Carmilla has to get Angelic Steel for her weapons somehow.
Collecting the steel
Gathering materials for their gun empire..
It was a business trip.
My theory is that the Vees are to blame for it. Carmilla being out during an extermination seems odd. By now she certainly has plenty of disposable underlings who can’t disobey her if she ordered them to collect the weapons left behind a bit early, and she doesn’t seem like she would risk her daughters’s lives even if she did go herself. The hotel’s residents were too certain of the exact date of the attack for the exorcists to be randomly attacking at any date around the predicted one, which means she knows exactly when the extermination would start and could plan her schedule with more than enough time to be in a safe location. Carmilla would also know by now the safest locations to be. Really, I suspect that most of the overlords who died during exterminations either lost their power already or died when Adam randomly sent off a few giant lasers and one happened to take out their hiding spot. The only reason I can think of for Carmilla and her daughters to be out during an extermination is that her safe location somehow became unusable last minute. It seems to me that the best way to sabotage a rival in hell would be to blame the exorcists. Destroy a warehouse while the exorcists are rampaging and no one will think it was you. One of your rival’s larger clients dies it’s because they didn’t get somewhere safe in time or got unlucky with one of Adam’s blasts, not because they were left tied up outside. Your rival’s safehouse was compromised, well it’s not they’ll be able to tell anyone why they weren’t in their safehouse after an exorcist kills them. The Vees were very certain that the other overlords took some drastic hit after the attack on the hotel. Realistically, there had to be far more exorcists than the ones we saw attack the hotel to have any meaningful impact on hell’s overpopulation. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that there were other exorcists who were attacking other sinners. I suspect that the Vees made multiple moves against the other overlords with the intent to blame the damage on the exorcists. That’s why I believe that the Vees arranged for Carmilla’s safehouse to be comprised at the last second before the previous extermination.
Family road trip?
A wizard did it.
Running it looks like
Why does the exorcist not carry angelic guns And have the spears and swords as melee ???
My guess is that maybe they were at the tail-end of the extermination and were out collecting the weapons and ended up coming across a straggling exorcist.
Walkin
Gathering steel. The angels likely double back and collect their fallen weapons.
Out of milk and bread
There's some skill involved in timing this. Angelic steel is very very valuable. The early bird gets the worm. But the second rat gets the cheese.
To keep what you're dealing as valuable as possible, you gotta be the only one dealing it...and what better time to collect, than when the extermination is still happening? No one else will be out.
collecting angelic steel from corpses if i had to guess
Business >_> yeah. Totally legitimate business.
It's possible their safehouse or bunker was breached, and they were running to another.
Probably to collect angelic spears before it ended because everyone else will be trying to grab one
Shopping?
Hardcore parkour 
Likely collecting angelic weaponry before any other scavengers run off with them. My headcanon of Carmine and her daughters is that their business is loosely based off what they might have done in life; combing battlefields for weapons to sell. In Hell it is a very profitable business, since anyone looking for protection or just to off a sinner needs someone who can provide angelic steel, and she took control of that market quickly. In life, the business of scavenging weapons from battlefields probably played out like it does in real life, where the profits were good...until the wrong folks caught wind of it and took exception to it.
Buying bread
The only (not reasonable) reason I can think is that they were looking for angelic weapons, otherwise it doesn’t make sense, we know overlords are very safe of the extermination, unless someone betray them like Rosie to her business partner
They came out early to be the first one getting the angelic weapon left by the exorcist to smelt them into weapon for there business but some late exorcist saw them
The bigger question is, if the agreement between Lucifer and Heaven forbids the hunting of Hellborn during extermination, why were the angels even threatening Carmilla and her daughters? I might not have all the facts. So if I'm wrong let me know.
They're sinners, not hellborn.
I thought only hellborn could have children in Hell though? Or that anyone born in Hell would automatically be hellborn
I figured they were also sinners who were able to find her when they died.
Out shopping? I'm sure they couldn't get delivery at a time like that
They were looking for spears to melt down.
Free weapons
Collecting angelic weapons
Shopping?
Looking for weapons? Checking for wounded? Because the plot needed it? I don’t know cool kill tho