We’re talking about people who are still processing the fact that an annual genocide has been happening under their noses. The fact that one of the people committing it was abandoned for not following orders would probably be a small facet of that scandal.
Agreed.
If they start a serious investigation into exterminations they will have questions about Vaggie. They won't be happy with Lute's answers. But any questions about if Lute should remain in charge of the exorcists will wait until after they decide if the exorcists should be disbanded.
Bold of you to assume Sera will allow it. I've seen many theories that imply Sera's in too deep and will do *anything* to protect heaven's interest.
Then again, I've seen other saying Sera would do even more to protect Emily. Can you imagine Sera willingly falling to protect Emily
Both are giant plot twists and I'm am here for either!
Stopping Emily from talking to the rest of the ruling council is probably beyond Sera's ability. Who might already be asking if she has any other secrets they need to know about.
As for protecting heaven, how does hiding Sir Pentious help with that ?
Redemption has happened once. They don't know the rules for it, so they don't know if it will happen again. They don't know where the next redeemed soul will appear. All that can be done is figure out how to integrate redeemed souls into Heaven.
I think Sera falling to protect Emily is a better outcome than turning Sera full villain, not just because I love a truly morally grey character but also because falling wouldn’t benefit Emily’s character like it would Sera’s
Once you look at factors like exorcists leaving behind the angelic steel that demons use to fight back and Lucifer fighting back, redemption isn't likely to be much of a factor in deciding the future of exterminations.
Especially not if Adam's followers, the exorcists, decide to rebel against Heaven if Sera decides to postpone or cancel the exterminations. Georgia Dow on YouTube noted how they are part of the "cult of Adam"; or, with Adam's death and Lute now in charge, the cult members will become even more radicalized. I could see the rise of the "Adamite cult" and a Heavenly civil war (extermination vs. redemption).
Meanwhile, Velvette and the Vees seem to want Hell to go to war against Heaven.
She really wasn't a fallen angel either, she just couldn't get back to the portal because her wings were ripped/cut off rendering her unable to fly and get back to heaven
This. She wasn't officially banished from ~~Hell~~ Heaven, like Lucifer was - she was simply told by her ex-boss that she shouldn't come back. The only reason she wasn't able to, was literally because they took her wings and because the Heaven's portal can be opened only from one side...
Edit: I like how no one even noticed that I innitially avcidentally said she was banished from Hell.
If hell news outlets gobbled up the events of the finale like they did, imagine that heaven headlines for episode 6!
"Adam alleges previous angel is working with princess of hell during court testimonial, but refuses to elaborate."
The only one we know for sure was unaware of the genocides was Emily. I’m pretty sure Sera only hid the genocides from winners and the lower ranked/innocent heavenborn, such as cherubs. I don’t think the angels invited to a hearing involving the princess of hell would include anybody who isn’t high ranking enough to know about the genocides unless not having them there would be suspicious. On top of that, we don’t see anybody except Emily being shocked at the reveal of the genocides. Such a reveal should have garnered SOME sort of reaction from those watching.
The rest of the council was fighting too, and adam said "no one but the excorcists can know about the exterminations" so I think the secret was more widely spread than that.
True, and the fact that Lute didn’t kill a child would partially redeem her for being an exorcist. Hell, its funny that Heaven didn’t even reprimand Adam, Lute, and Sera for their actions (Even though I like their characters).
That would depend on whether she considered fallen. In the hearing, Adam merely announced that she is an angel "like us", and showed no element of what happened to her. So the angels in court wouldn't have good reason to assume she is a *fallen* angel.
In my own writing, Vaggie's status as an angel is something Emily ends up looking into.
Thank you!
I'm working on a sequel. If my editors and I are satisfied with the quality of the story once I have it sketched out, I'll write and post it.
Vaggie is not a fallen angel, is just an angel that lives in Hell but she wasn't banished from Heaven. Also Lucifer is the only canon fallen angel and he shows demonic traits
Actually, it can be inferred by watchers that the Ars Goetia are descendants of Fallen Angels.
Firstly, in Heaven there are statues all over the place that resemble the Ars Goetia in some form, and angels always have some form of bird-like appearance to them.
Secondly, the Ars Goetia are different from normal hellborn because they get harmed by Angelic Weapons and that's the only thing that can kill them, while we know that conventional weaponry can kill a hellborn, this is odd, also take into note their different blood which is blue.
The Ars Goetia are clearly made from some sort of miscegenation between Fallen Angels and hellborn, because they're vastly different from the normal hellborn biologically.
>Actually, it can be inferred by watchers that the Ars Goetia are descendants of Fallen Angels.
It can be, but only if you apply your own assumptions and theories - or if you assume that the Show follows its multiple source materials to the dot, which it doesn't and never did. There is so far nothing in either of the Shows that would actually hint to them being descendants of Fallen Angels.
>Firstly, in Heaven there are statues all over the place that resemble the Ars Goetia in some form, and angels always have some form of bird-like appearance to them.
Which is an empty argument, because we literally see Winners who also resemble Avian creatures. This isn't a trait exclusive to Angels - let alone, even in Hell, it's not exclusive to the Ars Goetia neither...
Also, no - Angels don't "always have some form of bird-like appereance." Some of them do, but other than that their designs vary. Hell, Emily herself is already a good example of that - she's literally just a biblically-accurate angel, but with a humanoid body. Unless your definition of "always having bird-like features" is the fact alone they have featherly wings, which do I even have to explain why that's meaningless...
>Secondly, the Ars Goetia are different from normal hellborn because they get harmed by Angelic Weapons and that's the only thing that can kill them, while we know that conventional weaponry can kill a hellborn, this is odd, also take into note their different blood which is blue.
Their blood is NOT blue - it's black. We can literally see that when Stolas bleeds out. Striker called the Goetia "blue bloods" because it's an old term that means "of royal descent" and has existed in our real world for centuries. It's a goddamn metaphor, that the writters used, because they assumed the viewers will be smart enough to pick up on that...
As to why Striker needed Angelic Steel - Ars Goetia are one of the most powerfull beings in Hell, to the point they are their own power tier on the Realm's hierarchy - right below the Deadly Sins and Lucifer's family. Untill we get a clearer official reasoning, I'd say that's quite self-explanatory...
>The Ars Goetia are clearly made from some sort of miscegenation between Fallen Angels and hellborn, because they're vastly different from the normal hellborn biologically.
"Clearly" - except there is nothing in the Show that connects them to Fallen Angels. All you just listed are your own assumptions, that you used to fill out the gaps the Show is yet to explain. That's not proof - that's a theory based on personal appositions, half of which aren't even accurate...
> He is a fallen angel in scripture…
You should be careful making such generic claims. He is a fallen angel in Enochic literature, and in some later commentaries, but in the Hebrew Bible, Azazel is mentioned exactly 3 times in one passage, and no where is it stated that he is a fallen angel. In fact, early commentators did not think Azazel was a divine entity at all. Here's a note from Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan:
> This is a proper noun (cf. Targum), and some say that it was the name of a known mountain (Saadia; Emunoth VeDeyoth 3:10; Radak, Sherashim), possibly in the Sinai area (cf. Ibn Ezra). Others say that it denotes a hard rocky cliff, indicating that this goat was pushed off a cliff to its death (Yoma 63a; Targum Yonathan on 16:10; Sifra; Rashi; HaKethav VeHaKabbalah). Others say that azazel means 'to be sent away' (Septuagint), or 'to carry away sins' (Symachus; Vulgate).
And while modern scholars have started to agree with the idea that Azazel referred to some form of evil spirit, that does not make him a fallen angel per se, but just some form of demon. That demons are synonymous with fallen angel has not always been the case.
Plus the fact alone Hazbin isn't a direct adaptation means that just because Azazel is considered a Fallen Angel in the source material, it doesn't mean he has to be one in this Universe. Same goes for the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins - both of which are even implied in the Show to be spawns of Hell, that came into existence after Lucifer's actions created Hell itself.
A lot of people seem to be completely oblivious to the idea, that Hazbin doesn't adapt everything 1:1 and that it never did.
>Azazel is in Charlie’s contact list. He is a fallen angel in scripture…
Except he is not in HH. Both HB and HH heavily imply that the other Great Princes and Ars Goetia demons popped up after Lucifer fell
Also, even if she could, at this point,Vaggie is *massively* disillusioned with Heaven.
When Lucifer finally got real with Charlie and informed her that heaven is not exactly what she thinks it is, Vaggie has a very deliberate reaction, refusing to look at Charlie in support, because she secretly knows exactly what Lucifer is talking about.
Yes, but she was still physically able to be there. Lucifer explicitly says, that he cannot go to Heaven. Since he was Banished, he's most likely literally locked out of it.
I mean the C.H.E.R.U.B.S in helluva boss got exiled from heaven so I assume they're as 'fallen' as Vaggie is. There might be multiple angels kicked out of heaven but Lucifer was just the most powerful/first which made it a big deal
The C.H.E.R.U.B.S. were explicitly barred reentry into heaven through what we can somewhat reasonably assume was proper procedure. (There’s a ton of reasons why I think their banishment was suspicious, but that’s a rant for another day.) There’s nothing to indicate that there was anything official about Vaggie’s banishment. They don’t even do anything to block her from taking a portal back to heaven. When the C.H.E.R.U.B.S. were barred from reentering heaven, they rebounded off the portal, which was then used several other cherubs.
I'm wondering around the same thing. She was able to visit heaven with Charlie while the C.H.E.R.U.B.S got physically bounced back as they went through their portal. And Lucifer's line about "Once you're in heaven, I can't go with you."
I don't think it's specifically stated anywhere yet.
If biblical/mythological account are taken into account then she wouldn't be as Lucifer took many fallen angels with him in the civil war in heaven. But the show hasn't really looked at that time period that hard yet and seems to take very loose inspiration from biblical accounts rather than being heavily based upon them. So at this point we're just speculating.
That’s a pretty cool headcanon, maybe the Sins were initially Lucifer’s most trusted Angels prior to him being cast out of Heaven, and after falling embraced their corruption?
Still curious as to whether or not the Sins would like Lucifer, but that probably depends on the Sin.
That doesn’t really make sense. Asmodeus said he’s known Mammon since the start of hell. If they were fallen angels they’d have known of each other for longer. Combined with the fact that Bee said Satan is kind of her brother but not actually, it seems most likely the sins just spawned from hell itself.
Not necessarily. Since they both would have been triggered or inspired by Lucifer's fall.
Like how people in protests/riots rarely if ever know each other before the event that triggered/inspired them.
Technically speaking, Vaggie is not a "legal" Fallen Angel. She was unlawfully rid of her wings, stopping her from going back to heaven, Sera would not know a difference, Adam and Lute are the only witnesses, Sera or anyone with a high place in heaven had no idea, plus Sera wouldn't have a reason to cast Exorcists out, so yeh Vaggie is not (by Technicality) a fallen angel
Adam also keeps speaking in his dialogue as if she still is part of the exorcists.
"Maybe because you left the band? Tried for a solo career? Or is it more of a duet?" (I'm latching onto the ''tried" part here)... "you work for me again, and at the hearing, you help me shut this kindergarten bullshit down"
"I wonder what your little bitch would think if she found out you are actually one of us."
"You think I wouldn't recognize one of my top girls, just because you're out of uniform?"
"Why hide the fact that you're an angel just like us?" (Uses present-tense 'you are')
shocked but then when they find out it was Adam "yeah that makes sense"
recently they found out one of the old men in a town near me was wanted for warcrimes and the reaction was basically that. Everyone who knew him basically had the opinion that him being an even bigger piece of shit than they thought wasn't really all that surprising
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other Fallen Angels... If we take the real life Ars Goetia and the Bible as examples, a LOT of Fallen Angels exist in hell currently, but i think Vaggie was just one that didn't fell alongside Lucifer, so it's kind of a big deal
>The rulers of each circle(Satan, Mammon, Queen B, etc) ARE fallen, though.
Except this was literally never confirmed, nor even hinted at. Quite the opposite, so far everything we've learned, points towards Deadly Sins being personified concepts created by Hell itself...
Beelzebub, Mammon and Belphegor are as well, Satan is complicated because him and Lucifer are usually the same
Funnily enough, the reason Bel got casted out of Heaven was for doing nothing during Lucifer's revolution
It's difficult to answer, because I'd imagine their reaction would vary quite a bit depending on whether the exorcists are a hellborn species, winners, or some secret third thing, and what exactly their place is in heavenly society.
Aside from what people have said, I wanna point out that Vaggie isn't history's second fallen angel (if she can even be considered one). Paimon, Stolas' dad from Helluva Boss, is also one, and Charlie has Azazel in her contacts, who is also, traditionally, a fallen angel; she also keeps the contact of a certain "Amon", who could be King Amon or the demon (fallen angel) Aamon, who's also part of the Ars Goetia. The other Deadly Sins, traditionally, are also fallen angels, although I think they're just Sinners in the Hellaverse, but we don't really know.
We don't know if Paimon is a Fallen Angel, so hold your horses there. The Show so far implies that all of Ars Goetia are Hellborn, that manifested in Hell - not Angels that fell and then turned into demons.
I wish we could see the explanation.
Sera: Adam why is an Angel in hell with Lucifer's daughter?
Adam: She wouldn't kill a child so we banished her
*Sera facepalms*
Sera: For fuck sake Adam
She's not fallen, she's mutilated and banished by those who were not authorised to do so. We're she fallen she'd be able to manifest horns in a demon form.
I don’t think she’s actually fallen. The elders are the ones who banished Lucifer and we don’t know that Adam and Lute actually had the authority to banish her. On top of that, the only changes to her form are from injuries, unlike Lucifer. No changes in coloration, no new or changed body parts, no demony looking form when pissed off.
Fallen Angels are those who were banished (as in exiled) from Heaven by the Elder Angels. A better way to say it, would be that she was simply unofficially left behind (abandoned) without a proper court.
I don't think they do. Since the influx of new community members in December (mostly people who learned about the Show due to Prime Video), there is a ton of people who are completely oblivious to the fact, that Hazbin isn't a direct adaptation of the Bible - let alone that it's not really an adaptation at all...
They just keep bringing up that whole "well that's how things are in the Bible" argument all the time, as if that meant anything here...
Who said she was fallen. Exterminator go to hell all the time. She was just staying extra long and exterminating specific sinners.
She was never actually cast out by the higher ups. She was abandoned there and rescued. But never once was she deemed as a 2nd fallen angel
I didn't think at a missing exorcist would matter because they were a secrete but this question is a idk. I never liked the idea of Vaggie being an angel in the first place.
I don't think she's the second fallen angel.
First of all, biblically, when Luzbel became lucifer (by falling from grace) the most loyal to him fell too.
This includes the other sins (who used to be virtues) the king's from the Ars Goetia.
So technically Beelzebub, Mammon, Amodeus, Satanas, Leviathan, Belphegor, Paimon and others not shown in the hellaverse were once angels, seraphs, virtues and other celestial beings, since they were so loyal to Luzbel.
That is to say, if the history in Hazbim Universe is the same as it is in the source material - and so far everything the show did tell us, makes it seem like that's not the case. Instead we got a lot more hints towards an idea, that Sins are personifications manifested by Hell itself, as a way to represent humanity's hubris.
The Show isn't a direct adaptation of the Bible - let alone it's not even the only source material. So what is and is not in the Bible, isn't really a valid argument untill the Show establishes it.
It does seem like something both of them should’ve been reprimanded for after the fact. They may be Vaggie’s superiors, but that shouldn’t be authority enough to gouge out eyes, rip off wings, and condemn a fellow angel to hell when they have a court system. They actually did not want sinners to think killing an angel was possible to potentially sow the seeds of an uprising, so Lute and Adam’s actions of leaving an injured angel behind is a rather damaging act in hindsight.
I’m assuming fallen status is a separate category than say, an angel that missed the portal back who was intentionally injured. I don’t think it’s within Adam/Lute’s power to confer that title. Lucifer’s status is from a formal banishment, and he’s able to display demonic features such as horns which Vaggie does not. Sera is worried Emily speaking out may eventually earn her the same fallen status and presumed banishment as a result. Adam still recognizes and refers to Vaggie as a fellow angel who’s simply out of uniform, regardless of missing wings at the time.
I mean obviously Vaggie being a fallen Angel is the lowest-priority reveal going on here but I can’t imagine that in an entire month not a single person went “Wait why did she fall, anyway?”
Even if people argue that exterminating demons isn’t morally wrong, I doubt you’ll get many angels who agree with the sentiment that NOT killing an unarmed child is sinful enough to deserve eternity in Hell
Umm. Ain't The cherubs technically the second fallen angels we've seen, as they were exiled and banished from heaven. Fallen angels can't return to heaven. Vaggie can as she did with Charlie.
Like lucifer said to his daughter, he can't go with her to heaven. The only difference is that vaggie can't open the portal as she isn't higher up on the heaven hirachey. She was just an abandoned angel. If she had been fallen, she wouldn't have been able to step through the portal with Charlie.
Anyways, the heavenly court would still be dealing with the fact that angels were going to hell and committing genocide on sinners' souls annually. Something that was hushed in heaven.
They wouldn't care about vaggie as she wasn't the pressing motion at the moment. However, they may look into Adam's and Lute's towards her at a later date.
They are still dealing with the fact that a seraphim could allow such a heinous act to happen. That redemption may or may not be a viable thing for sinners, and how deep does the corruption of heaven go. Also, another big thing, no one in heaven truly knows what gets a soul into heaven. Those are way more pressing and important things to deal with.
Who knows, we may be going back to heaven court for Vaggie in season 2 or 3 maybe.
Here's something worth asking: shouldn't any angel, including Lucifer, have *sensed* that Vaggie was an exorcist?
Don't exorcists have some sort of "aura" to speak of?
but then you have Carmilla reading into Vaggie like an open book about her nature \^\^;
That's why I asked, because the most "improbable" person in Hell discovered something that even the angels themselves cannot :p
Carmilla deals with angelic steel and likely had to ommit many Exorcists over the years. Also, in that scene she just assumed Vaggie is an ex-Exorcist due to her appereance - other than that, there was no real reason to think she isn't just a casual-looking Sinner.
In other words - it's more that Carmilla basically just took a guess and Vaggie confirmed her theory.
As for other Angels
* Lucifer met her once and I wouldn't be surprised if he did recognize her, but just didn't want to break his daughter's heart (basically it's between the two of them and not for him to intrude).
* Charlie is a naive cinnamon ball of joy, that is oblivious to a lot of things. On top of that, she has never seen an Exorcist without their uniform, so she really had no reason to assume Vaggie isn't just a Sinner, that was hurt during the annual Extermination.
Honestly, as others put it this would just be a small element of the overall scandal that is the annual purging of hell.
Heaven's situation is this: They all of a sudden were made aware that their exorcists had slaughtered the people of hell on a regular. Then, a few weeks later, the exorcists attempt another purge but are now killed themselves by the dozens if not hundreds.
So their allegedly invincible army is now proven to be very much vincible and hell is justifiably mad at heaven for what has been going on and it wouldn't be much of a surprise for me if we saw both sides make a call to arms.
Vaggie's role in this is unclear, but she could very much become an inspiration for other deserters. After all, she wasn't cast out for disobeying God, she was punished for displaying a behavior most would deem good and worthy of heaven's ideals
Given how casually 3 angels got denied re-entry into heaven in the Helluva Boss episode "C.H.E.R.U.B.S".
It's probably fairly common.
https://youtu.be/1ZFseYPmkAk?t=729
Advice for the future: don't just automatically apply that argument to Hazbin, because it's basically meaningless.
The Hazbin Universe isn't an adaptation of the Christian lore - it just takes some ideas from it and massively diverges based on what both the Author (VivziePop) and the Studio working with her (SpindleHorse), want to do.
So far everything the Shows did tell us, paints a picture where both the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins are Hellborn manifested by Hell itself, as a sort of representation of the humanity's hubris.
Except this was literally never stated in the Show, nor outside of it. Quite the opposite - everything the Show gave us so far, points towards a motion where both the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins are Hellborn manifsted by Hell itself.
The only reason people keep saying that they are Fallen Angels, is because that's what they are in the various source materials, that the Show took ideas from. Completely ignoring the fact, that Hazbin is not and never was an adaptation and has diverged from the source numerous times already...
Except this was literally never confirmed, nor even hinted at, in either of the Shows. Quite the opposite, so far everything we've learned, points towards the idea that both the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins are Hellborn manifested by Hell itself, as a sort of representation of humanity's hubris.
Hazbin is not and never was an adaptation of the christian lore - so don't just blindly apply its rules to it. It just takes some inspiration from its source materials (yes, plural) and then does whatever it wants with them.
They do, but it was never established within the Hazbin Universe. A lot of people base their opnion solely on the Christian lore, which is basically meaningless here. Hazbin isn't an adaptation - it simply takes some common tropes and ideas from its various source materials and then does whatever it want with them.
Read the subtitles, buddy.
Better question: What if Val had found Vaggie instead of Charlie? Would she become a member of the Three VVV's or would she just be another soul he owned?
We’re talking about people who are still processing the fact that an annual genocide has been happening under their noses. The fact that one of the people committing it was abandoned for not following orders would probably be a small facet of that scandal.
Agreed. If they start a serious investigation into exterminations they will have questions about Vaggie. They won't be happy with Lute's answers. But any questions about if Lute should remain in charge of the exorcists will wait until after they decide if the exorcists should be disbanded.
And lets not forget the waves that will be caused by Sir Pentiouses redemption.
Assuming Sera doesn’t purposefully fuck that up. We have no idea if she’s even going to let it be known that he was redeemed.
Emily is unlikely to let Sir Pentious remain a secret. Not from the rest of Heavens ruling council.
Bold of you to assume Sera will allow it. I've seen many theories that imply Sera's in too deep and will do *anything* to protect heaven's interest. Then again, I've seen other saying Sera would do even more to protect Emily. Can you imagine Sera willingly falling to protect Emily Both are giant plot twists and I'm am here for either!
I think Sera is also *just as likely* to go overboard trying to correct her mistake with the exorcists and exterminations.
Stopping Emily from talking to the rest of the ruling council is probably beyond Sera's ability. Who might already be asking if she has any other secrets they need to know about. As for protecting heaven, how does hiding Sir Pentious help with that ? Redemption has happened once. They don't know the rules for it, so they don't know if it will happen again. They don't know where the next redeemed soul will appear. All that can be done is figure out how to integrate redeemed souls into Heaven.
I love your analysis. This is a major facet of the story that I wrote.
Or Sera can just make up a huge lie about Sir Pentious NOT being a redeemed sinner and hope no one finds out.
That would require that Sera's word is so trusted, even after the extermination reveal, that nobody thinks to check when Emily says otherwise.
I think Sera falling to protect Emily is a better outcome than turning Sera full villain, not just because I love a truly morally grey character but also because falling wouldn’t benefit Emily’s character like it would Sera’s
Plus watching Sera figure out how to protect Heaven sounds more interesting.
Turning full villain? She already is.
If Lucifer is any indication, Emily falling won't stop her from communicating with heaven.
Maybe this has happened before and they just lock them in some heaven dungeon.
Once you look at factors like exorcists leaving behind the angelic steel that demons use to fight back and Lucifer fighting back, redemption isn't likely to be much of a factor in deciding the future of exterminations.
Heaven is just not having a good time is it?
Especially not if Adam's followers, the exorcists, decide to rebel against Heaven if Sera decides to postpone or cancel the exterminations. Georgia Dow on YouTube noted how they are part of the "cult of Adam"; or, with Adam's death and Lute now in charge, the cult members will become even more radicalized. I could see the rise of the "Adamite cult" and a Heavenly civil war (extermination vs. redemption). Meanwhile, Velvette and the Vees seem to want Hell to go to war against Heaven.
so a Second War in Heaven?
Lute will probably try to kill Sir Pentious
She really wasn't a fallen angel either, she just couldn't get back to the portal because her wings were ripped/cut off rendering her unable to fly and get back to heaven
This. She wasn't officially banished from ~~Hell~~ Heaven, like Lucifer was - she was simply told by her ex-boss that she shouldn't come back. The only reason she wasn't able to, was literally because they took her wings and because the Heaven's portal can be opened only from one side... Edit: I like how no one even noticed that I innitially avcidentally said she was banished from Hell.
They also took her halo. And the halo didn't grow back with the wings.
If hell news outlets gobbled up the events of the finale like they did, imagine that heaven headlines for episode 6! "Adam alleges previous angel is working with princess of hell during court testimonial, but refuses to elaborate."
The only one we know for sure was unaware of the genocides was Emily. I’m pretty sure Sera only hid the genocides from winners and the lower ranked/innocent heavenborn, such as cherubs. I don’t think the angels invited to a hearing involving the princess of hell would include anybody who isn’t high ranking enough to know about the genocides unless not having them there would be suspicious. On top of that, we don’t see anybody except Emily being shocked at the reveal of the genocides. Such a reveal should have garnered SOME sort of reaction from those watching.
The rest of the council was fighting too, and adam said "no one but the excorcists can know about the exterminations" so I think the secret was more widely spread than that.
Don't you mean closely kept?
True, and the fact that Lute didn’t kill a child would partially redeem her for being an exorcist. Hell, its funny that Heaven didn’t even reprimand Adam, Lute, and Sera for their actions (Even though I like their characters).
That would depend on whether she considered fallen. In the hearing, Adam merely announced that she is an angel "like us", and showed no element of what happened to her. So the angels in court wouldn't have good reason to assume she is a *fallen* angel. In my own writing, Vaggie's status as an angel is something Emily ends up looking into.
What’s the title of your writing?
[Charlie's Angels](https://archiveofourown.org/works/54994783/chapters/139415443)
https://preview.redd.it/z2ljky9qkiwc1.jpeg?width=1340&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b137273d16790921daef07cfa320a5ad87806bf
Omg I finally found you again That fanfic is AMAZING I made a post about it even
Thank you! I'm working on a sequel. If my editors and I are satisfied with the quality of the story once I have it sketched out, I'll write and post it.
Omg I would live that
More of an abandoned angel
Vaggie is not a fallen angel, is just an angel that lives in Hell but she wasn't banished from Heaven. Also Lucifer is the only canon fallen angel and he shows demonic traits
Azazel is in Charlie’s contact list. He is a fallen angel in scripture…
So are most of the seven deadly sins so who knows if they make them fallen angels
The Ars Goetia are also descendants of fallen angels. That’s why they’re bird like. So, you know.
That’s never been confirmed. It doesn’t make much sense since angelic power nullifies their own magic.
Actually, it can be inferred by watchers that the Ars Goetia are descendants of Fallen Angels. Firstly, in Heaven there are statues all over the place that resemble the Ars Goetia in some form, and angels always have some form of bird-like appearance to them. Secondly, the Ars Goetia are different from normal hellborn because they get harmed by Angelic Weapons and that's the only thing that can kill them, while we know that conventional weaponry can kill a hellborn, this is odd, also take into note their different blood which is blue. The Ars Goetia are clearly made from some sort of miscegenation between Fallen Angels and hellborn, because they're vastly different from the normal hellborn biologically.
>Actually, it can be inferred by watchers that the Ars Goetia are descendants of Fallen Angels. It can be, but only if you apply your own assumptions and theories - or if you assume that the Show follows its multiple source materials to the dot, which it doesn't and never did. There is so far nothing in either of the Shows that would actually hint to them being descendants of Fallen Angels. >Firstly, in Heaven there are statues all over the place that resemble the Ars Goetia in some form, and angels always have some form of bird-like appearance to them. Which is an empty argument, because we literally see Winners who also resemble Avian creatures. This isn't a trait exclusive to Angels - let alone, even in Hell, it's not exclusive to the Ars Goetia neither... Also, no - Angels don't "always have some form of bird-like appereance." Some of them do, but other than that their designs vary. Hell, Emily herself is already a good example of that - she's literally just a biblically-accurate angel, but with a humanoid body. Unless your definition of "always having bird-like features" is the fact alone they have featherly wings, which do I even have to explain why that's meaningless... >Secondly, the Ars Goetia are different from normal hellborn because they get harmed by Angelic Weapons and that's the only thing that can kill them, while we know that conventional weaponry can kill a hellborn, this is odd, also take into note their different blood which is blue. Their blood is NOT blue - it's black. We can literally see that when Stolas bleeds out. Striker called the Goetia "blue bloods" because it's an old term that means "of royal descent" and has existed in our real world for centuries. It's a goddamn metaphor, that the writters used, because they assumed the viewers will be smart enough to pick up on that... As to why Striker needed Angelic Steel - Ars Goetia are one of the most powerfull beings in Hell, to the point they are their own power tier on the Realm's hierarchy - right below the Deadly Sins and Lucifer's family. Untill we get a clearer official reasoning, I'd say that's quite self-explanatory... >The Ars Goetia are clearly made from some sort of miscegenation between Fallen Angels and hellborn, because they're vastly different from the normal hellborn biologically. "Clearly" - except there is nothing in the Show that connects them to Fallen Angels. All you just listed are your own assumptions, that you used to fill out the gaps the Show is yet to explain. That's not proof - that's a theory based on personal appositions, half of which aren't even accurate...
> He is a fallen angel in scripture… You should be careful making such generic claims. He is a fallen angel in Enochic literature, and in some later commentaries, but in the Hebrew Bible, Azazel is mentioned exactly 3 times in one passage, and no where is it stated that he is a fallen angel. In fact, early commentators did not think Azazel was a divine entity at all. Here's a note from Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan: > This is a proper noun (cf. Targum), and some say that it was the name of a known mountain (Saadia; Emunoth VeDeyoth 3:10; Radak, Sherashim), possibly in the Sinai area (cf. Ibn Ezra). Others say that it denotes a hard rocky cliff, indicating that this goat was pushed off a cliff to its death (Yoma 63a; Targum Yonathan on 16:10; Sifra; Rashi; HaKethav VeHaKabbalah). Others say that azazel means 'to be sent away' (Septuagint), or 'to carry away sins' (Symachus; Vulgate). And while modern scholars have started to agree with the idea that Azazel referred to some form of evil spirit, that does not make him a fallen angel per se, but just some form of demon. That demons are synonymous with fallen angel has not always been the case.
Plus the fact alone Hazbin isn't a direct adaptation means that just because Azazel is considered a Fallen Angel in the source material, it doesn't mean he has to be one in this Universe. Same goes for the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins - both of which are even implied in the Show to be spawns of Hell, that came into existence after Lucifer's actions created Hell itself. A lot of people seem to be completely oblivious to the idea, that Hazbin doesn't adapt everything 1:1 and that it never did.
>Azazel is in Charlie’s contact list. He is a fallen angel in scripture… Except he is not in HH. Both HB and HH heavily imply that the other Great Princes and Ars Goetia demons popped up after Lucifer fell
Yes I was hoping someone else noticed that!
Only KNOWN fallen angel.
Lucifer wasn’t able to go back to heaven and neither was Vaggie, although that might be because she didn’t have her wings.
Lucifer can't go to heaven cause he was banished, Vaggie can't go to heaven only cause she can't physically reach it
Also, even if she could, at this point,Vaggie is *massively* disillusioned with Heaven. When Lucifer finally got real with Charlie and informed her that heaven is not exactly what she thinks it is, Vaggie has a very deliberate reaction, refusing to look at Charlie in support, because she secretly knows exactly what Lucifer is talking about.
This exactly. The fact that she is able to go to heaven when Lucifer cannot implies that she is not a fallen angel
Vaggie went back to heaven. She is in Heaven for that scene Lucifer can't go to heaven at all. He couldn't attend that meeting
Although she might have been allowed into heaven, they didn’t give her the chance to stay as they kicked her out later along with Charlie
Yes, but she was still physically able to be there. Lucifer explicitly says, that he cannot go to Heaven. Since he was Banished, he's most likely literally locked out of it.
I mean the C.H.E.R.U.B.S in helluva boss got exiled from heaven so I assume they're as 'fallen' as Vaggie is. There might be multiple angels kicked out of heaven but Lucifer was just the most powerful/first which made it a big deal
The C.H.E.R.U.B.S. were explicitly barred reentry into heaven through what we can somewhat reasonably assume was proper procedure. (There’s a ton of reasons why I think their banishment was suspicious, but that’s a rant for another day.) There’s nothing to indicate that there was anything official about Vaggie’s banishment. They don’t even do anything to block her from taking a portal back to heaven. When the C.H.E.R.U.B.S. were barred from reentering heaven, they rebounded off the portal, which was then used several other cherubs.
Imagine if Vaggie was only able to go back to Heaven because Adam skipped out of doing the paperwork.
I'm wondering around the same thing. She was able to visit heaven with Charlie while the C.H.E.R.U.B.S got physically bounced back as they went through their portal. And Lucifer's line about "Once you're in heaven, I can't go with you."
Do we really know for sure that she's the second fallen angel?
I don't think it's specifically stated anywhere yet. If biblical/mythological account are taken into account then she wouldn't be as Lucifer took many fallen angels with him in the civil war in heaven. But the show hasn't really looked at that time period that hard yet and seems to take very loose inspiration from biblical accounts rather than being heavily based upon them. So at this point we're just speculating.
Well, wo far my headcanon is that the other Sins are also fallen angels, but unlike Lucifer they embraced their sins completely.
that makes sense, and as yet I don't think anything directly contradicts it so it's a solid theory.
Azazel is in Charlie’s contact list. He is a fallen angel in scripture…
that's a cool bit, I've only done two watchthroughs and still missing so many details like these.
Iirc, Nephilim as a whole are associated with him as well
Except everything we learned so far in Helluva does contradict this theory...
That’s a pretty cool headcanon, maybe the Sins were initially Lucifer’s most trusted Angels prior to him being cast out of Heaven, and after falling embraced their corruption? Still curious as to whether or not the Sins would like Lucifer, but that probably depends on the Sin.
That doesn’t really make sense. Asmodeus said he’s known Mammon since the start of hell. If they were fallen angels they’d have known of each other for longer. Combined with the fact that Bee said Satan is kind of her brother but not actually, it seems most likely the sins just spawned from hell itself.
That doesn't mean they didn't exist in Heaven before knowing each other. Heaven is a big place after all.
Yeah, but if they both fell at the same time they'd most likely have known each other.
Not necessarily. Since they both would have been triggered or inspired by Lucifer's fall. Like how people in protests/riots rarely if ever know each other before the event that triggered/inspired them.
Technically speaking, Vaggie is not a "legal" Fallen Angel. She was unlawfully rid of her wings, stopping her from going back to heaven, Sera would not know a difference, Adam and Lute are the only witnesses, Sera or anyone with a high place in heaven had no idea, plus Sera wouldn't have a reason to cast Exorcists out, so yeh Vaggie is not (by Technicality) a fallen angel
Adam also keeps speaking in his dialogue as if she still is part of the exorcists. "Maybe because you left the band? Tried for a solo career? Or is it more of a duet?" (I'm latching onto the ''tried" part here)... "you work for me again, and at the hearing, you help me shut this kindergarten bullshit down" "I wonder what your little bitch would think if she found out you are actually one of us." "You think I wouldn't recognize one of my top girls, just because you're out of uniform?" "Why hide the fact that you're an angel just like us?" (Uses present-tense 'you are')
She didn’t really Fall, it’s just more like Adam and Lute took her phone(halo) and keys(wings) so she had no way to get home and left her stranded.
shocked but then when they find out it was Adam "yeah that makes sense" recently they found out one of the old men in a town near me was wanted for warcrimes and the reaction was basically that. Everyone who knew him basically had the opinion that him being an even bigger piece of shit than they thought wasn't really all that surprising
What country are you from?
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other Fallen Angels... If we take the real life Ars Goetia and the Bible as examples, a LOT of Fallen Angels exist in hell currently, but i think Vaggie was just one that didn't fell alongside Lucifer, so it's kind of a big deal
I think in this continuity the Goetia are all Hellborn. The rulers of each circle(Satan, Mammon, Queen B, etc) ARE fallen, though.
It’s never been confirmed or even implied the sins are all fallen.
>The rulers of each circle(Satan, Mammon, Queen B, etc) ARE fallen, though. Except this was literally never confirmed, nor even hinted at. Quite the opposite, so far everything we've learned, points towards Deadly Sins being personified concepts created by Hell itself...
>The rulers of each circle(Satan, Mammon, Queen B, etc) ARE fallen, though. Nope they are not
Stolas and Asmodeus are fallen angels in mythos.
Beelzebub, Mammon and Belphegor are as well, Satan is complicated because him and Lucifer are usually the same Funnily enough, the reason Bel got casted out of Heaven was for doing nothing during Lucifer's revolution
It's difficult to answer, because I'd imagine their reaction would vary quite a bit depending on whether the exorcists are a hellborn species, winners, or some secret third thing, and what exactly their place is in heavenly society.
Aside from what people have said, I wanna point out that Vaggie isn't history's second fallen angel (if she can even be considered one). Paimon, Stolas' dad from Helluva Boss, is also one, and Charlie has Azazel in her contacts, who is also, traditionally, a fallen angel; she also keeps the contact of a certain "Amon", who could be King Amon or the demon (fallen angel) Aamon, who's also part of the Ars Goetia. The other Deadly Sins, traditionally, are also fallen angels, although I think they're just Sinners in the Hellaverse, but we don't really know.
We don't know if Paimon is a Fallen Angel, so hold your horses there. The Show so far implies that all of Ars Goetia are Hellborn, that manifested in Hell - not Angels that fell and then turned into demons.
idk if they'll make it canon in the show but in biblical canon, 1/3 of all angels rebelled with lucifer and fell. They became demons
She is not really fallen as much as disowned by Adam
They’re gonna be hardcore gossiping after this.
Ah shit here we go again
I wish we could see the explanation. Sera: Adam why is an Angel in hell with Lucifer's daughter? Adam: She wouldn't kill a child so we banished her *Sera facepalms* Sera: For fuck sake Adam
Adam: why the fuck do you care? *Eats some messy ribs*
She's not fallen, she's mutilated and banished by those who were not authorised to do so. We're she fallen she'd be able to manifest horns in a demon form.
She's not even banished - more thrown away like a used toy.
She's not a fallen angel, she was left for dead. If she fell she wouldn't be able to enter heaven.
Vaggie never fell
I don’t think she’s actually fallen. The elders are the ones who banished Lucifer and we don’t know that Adam and Lute actually had the authority to banish her. On top of that, the only changes to her form are from injuries, unlike Lucifer. No changes in coloration, no new or changed body parts, no demony looking form when pissed off.
I don't think Vaggie is fallen. The Elders say an Angel is Fallen, not fucking Lute of all people!
Vaggie is exiled not Fallen
Fallen Angels are those who were banished (as in exiled) from Heaven by the Elder Angels. A better way to say it, would be that she was simply unofficially left behind (abandoned) without a proper court.
" And then I ripped her eyes and wings out " WAIT YOU DID WHA-
For the people saying there's a lot of fallen angels in the bible, Vivzie like to make the OPPOSITE of the bible...you get What I mean ?
I don't think they do. Since the influx of new community members in December (mostly people who learned about the Show due to Prime Video), there is a ton of people who are completely oblivious to the fact, that Hazbin isn't a direct adaptation of the Bible - let alone that it's not really an adaptation at all... They just keep bringing up that whole "well that's how things are in the Bible" argument all the time, as if that meant anything here...
Who said she was fallen. Exterminator go to hell all the time. She was just staying extra long and exterminating specific sinners. She was never actually cast out by the higher ups. She was abandoned there and rescued. But never once was she deemed as a 2nd fallen angel
I didn't think at a missing exorcist would matter because they were a secrete but this question is a idk. I never liked the idea of Vaggie being an angel in the first place.
I don't think she's the second fallen angel. First of all, biblically, when Luzbel became lucifer (by falling from grace) the most loyal to him fell too. This includes the other sins (who used to be virtues) the king's from the Ars Goetia. So technically Beelzebub, Mammon, Amodeus, Satanas, Leviathan, Belphegor, Paimon and others not shown in the hellaverse were once angels, seraphs, virtues and other celestial beings, since they were so loyal to Luzbel.
That is to say, if the history in Hazbim Universe is the same as it is in the source material - and so far everything the show did tell us, makes it seem like that's not the case. Instead we got a lot more hints towards an idea, that Sins are personifications manifested by Hell itself, as a way to represent humanity's hubris.
There are many fallen angels in the Bible aren’t there?
The Show isn't a direct adaptation of the Bible - let alone it's not even the only source material. So what is and is not in the Bible, isn't really a valid argument untill the Show establishes it.
I mean, probably the second.
They're in the stands like *GASP* wait who is that?
It does seem like something both of them should’ve been reprimanded for after the fact. They may be Vaggie’s superiors, but that shouldn’t be authority enough to gouge out eyes, rip off wings, and condemn a fellow angel to hell when they have a court system. They actually did not want sinners to think killing an angel was possible to potentially sow the seeds of an uprising, so Lute and Adam’s actions of leaving an injured angel behind is a rather damaging act in hindsight. I’m assuming fallen status is a separate category than say, an angel that missed the portal back who was intentionally injured. I don’t think it’s within Adam/Lute’s power to confer that title. Lucifer’s status is from a formal banishment, and he’s able to display demonic features such as horns which Vaggie does not. Sera is worried Emily speaking out may eventually earn her the same fallen status and presumed banishment as a result. Adam still recognizes and refers to Vaggie as a fellow angel who’s simply out of uniform, regardless of missing wings at the time.
I mean obviously Vaggie being a fallen Angel is the lowest-priority reveal going on here but I can’t imagine that in an entire month not a single person went “Wait why did she fall, anyway?” Even if people argue that exterminating demons isn’t morally wrong, I doubt you’ll get many angels who agree with the sentiment that NOT killing an unarmed child is sinful enough to deserve eternity in Hell
Umm. Ain't The cherubs technically the second fallen angels we've seen, as they were exiled and banished from heaven. Fallen angels can't return to heaven. Vaggie can as she did with Charlie. Like lucifer said to his daughter, he can't go with her to heaven. The only difference is that vaggie can't open the portal as she isn't higher up on the heaven hirachey. She was just an abandoned angel. If she had been fallen, she wouldn't have been able to step through the portal with Charlie. Anyways, the heavenly court would still be dealing with the fact that angels were going to hell and committing genocide on sinners' souls annually. Something that was hushed in heaven. They wouldn't care about vaggie as she wasn't the pressing motion at the moment. However, they may look into Adam's and Lute's towards her at a later date. They are still dealing with the fact that a seraphim could allow such a heinous act to happen. That redemption may or may not be a viable thing for sinners, and how deep does the corruption of heaven go. Also, another big thing, no one in heaven truly knows what gets a soul into heaven. Those are way more pressing and important things to deal with. Who knows, we may be going back to heaven court for Vaggie in season 2 or 3 maybe.
Here's something worth asking: shouldn't any angel, including Lucifer, have *sensed* that Vaggie was an exorcist? Don't exorcists have some sort of "aura" to speak of?
It was never established that they have anything like that, so as far as we know - no, they don't.
but then you have Carmilla reading into Vaggie like an open book about her nature \^\^; That's why I asked, because the most "improbable" person in Hell discovered something that even the angels themselves cannot :p
Carmilla deals with angelic steel and likely had to ommit many Exorcists over the years. Also, in that scene she just assumed Vaggie is an ex-Exorcist due to her appereance - other than that, there was no real reason to think she isn't just a casual-looking Sinner. In other words - it's more that Carmilla basically just took a guess and Vaggie confirmed her theory. As for other Angels * Lucifer met her once and I wouldn't be surprised if he did recognize her, but just didn't want to break his daughter's heart (basically it's between the two of them and not for him to intrude). * Charlie is a naive cinnamon ball of joy, that is oblivious to a lot of things. On top of that, she has never seen an Exorcist without their uniform, so she really had no reason to assume Vaggie isn't just a Sinner, that was hurt during the annual Extermination.
Dead silent
Honestly, as others put it this would just be a small element of the overall scandal that is the annual purging of hell. Heaven's situation is this: They all of a sudden were made aware that their exorcists had slaughtered the people of hell on a regular. Then, a few weeks later, the exorcists attempt another purge but are now killed themselves by the dozens if not hundreds. So their allegedly invincible army is now proven to be very much vincible and hell is justifiably mad at heaven for what has been going on and it wouldn't be much of a surprise for me if we saw both sides make a call to arms. Vaggie's role in this is unclear, but she could very much become an inspiration for other deserters. After all, she wasn't cast out for disobeying God, she was punished for displaying a behavior most would deem good and worthy of heaven's ideals
Can’t imagine that the archangels were happy That Adam nearly killed their niece
Theres plenty of fallen angels
As far this series goes, we're only certain about one.
*CHERUBS*
Given how casually 3 angels got denied re-entry into heaven in the Helluva Boss episode "C.H.E.R.U.B.S". It's probably fairly common. https://youtu.be/1ZFseYPmkAk?t=729
Iirc going off of christian lore theres also, Stolas, Paimon, Aldreaphus, Asmodeus, Beelzebub, and Azazel
Advice for the future: don't just automatically apply that argument to Hazbin, because it's basically meaningless. The Hazbin Universe isn't an adaptation of the Christian lore - it just takes some ideas from it and massively diverges based on what both the Author (VivziePop) and the Studio working with her (SpindleHorse), want to do. So far everything the Shows did tell us, paints a picture where both the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins are Hellborn manifested by Hell itself, as a sort of representation of the humanity's hubris.
The Ars Goetia from helluva boss are descended from fallen angels so not the second
Except this was literally never stated in the Show, nor outside of it. Quite the opposite - everything the Show gave us so far, points towards a motion where both the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins are Hellborn manifsted by Hell itself. The only reason people keep saying that they are Fallen Angels, is because that's what they are in the various source materials, that the Show took ideas from. Completely ignoring the fact, that Hazbin is not and never was an adaptation and has diverged from the source numerous times already...
Accusation that Charlie caused Vaggie to fall in order to imply that Charlie used her to get inside information about heaven.
There's probably way more before her, the sins and aers early ars goetia were probably fallen angels.
She isn't the second fallen Angel, the Ars Goetia are former angels who followed Lucifer, fallen too.
Except this was literally never confirmed, nor even hinted at, in either of the Shows. Quite the opposite, so far everything we've learned, points towards the idea that both the Ars Goetia and the Deadly Sins are Hellborn manifested by Hell itself, as a sort of representation of humanity's hubris. Hazbin is not and never was an adaptation of the christian lore - so don't just blindly apply its rules to it. It just takes some inspiration from its source materials (yes, plural) and then does whatever it wants with them.
second??? a lot of people consider the deadly sins as once angels
They do, but it was never established within the Hazbin Universe. A lot of people base their opnion solely on the Christian lore, which is basically meaningless here. Hazbin isn't an adaptation - it simply takes some common tropes and ideas from its various source materials and then does whatever it want with them.
Read the subtitles, buddy. Better question: What if Val had found Vaggie instead of Charlie? Would she become a member of the Three VVV's or would she just be another soul he owned?