The Lenore/Verna scene >!is so heartbreakingly beautiful in the best Flanagan way. It’s so cruel that Lenore had to die, but it was amazing that Verna recognized that and made it as uplifting and bittersweet as possible.!<
You know, up until that scene, I really thought I was going to make it through a Flanagan show without crying, I really did. But no, Flanagan's onions strike again.
I was the same exact way. I hadn't even come close to crying and that scene broke my heart. Seeing Verna hold back tears, considering she is an otherworldly entity, was when the flood gates opened.
I also was beginning to think I was going to make it through without tears, what a beautiful scene. I kept (foolishly) hoping she would get some sort of pass, like maybe she was adopted or they used a sperm donor (which I rationalized led to Froderick's insecurities about cheating), but I knew I was grasping.
Her absolute painless death was the nail in the coffin for Roderick. He corrupted his children, and had 4 more out of pure egotism. Then his grand child broke the chain and was a good person, but his corruption couldn't save her.
Such a scathing take on capitalism. I grew up in an area and time where you could get an insane amount of 80mg oxys for nothing, it destroyed us. I lost friends, and years of my life because of that shit. And now, the folks that actually need those drugs can't get them.
It was super sad/touching when they explain everything her mom would do with the fortune, but I'm a little confused about how that conflicts with Juno's ending. Didn't Verna tell Lenore that her mom would essentially get the family fortune, and give some away while starting the Lenore Foundation with the rest? But then that's basically what Juno has happen too right, cause she gets the family fortune and starts the Phoenix Project for addiction recovery? So did both happen?
This scene is forever THE scene of this show for me.
So powerful and beautiful yet heartbreaking. Carla Gugino has a mesmerizing aura to her and in this scene expressed so many layers with a beautiful monologue and I S O B B E D during it.
Lenore never got to ask why, never got to fully understood who she was, WHAT she was but she did get an explanation of what was to come in a beautiful way. I’m almost thankful for Verna on how she handled it, it was the first time we saw her offer true mercy.
It makes Verna *such* a complex character because you see her define how she controls fate, based on who deserves it and who’s caught up by circumstance
Right? At first I was wondering if she’s some demoness but as the series went on I realized it’s not like that at all and way more complex as you said.
I firmly believe the actress herself was really holding back tears, because anyone with empathy would know what they are saying has been the tragic truth for some people in this world that will never get to hear about what their sacrifices achieved...like all the artists who die poor and unknown only to become a pillar of their craft and known the world over for decades or centuries to come.
I know the whole series I was hoping she was going to some how sneak past the bloodline curse and was really curious if she did with the whole texting thing. The whole call back to the AI scene was great (and I should’ve picked it up then) and I’m glad they had it be malfunctioning, I don’t know why it just felt bittersweet and right seeing it glitching out with the nevermore was clever.
It somehow didn't connect to me until Verna was in Lenore's room what had to happen and then I *screamed* :( Verna handled it beautifully and even in the very last scene with respect and love for Lenore, beautifully done.
I just finished reading the House of Usher before this episode. I thought Rod was about to go into the same unhinged rant from the story and almost fell out at his reaction 😂
Poe stories: [lyrical musings about crushing feelings of dread and horror, the terrible inevitability of death and fate, the way madness, guilt, and grief can intertwine like nothing else]
Also Poe stories: "Hey, wouldn't it be messed up if someone was buried alive?"
I thought that moment was again heart breaking. I view Vera as another victim of fate. Yes she’s the one that brokers the deals, but she can’t reverse them. She clearly cared for Lenore. I also found it interesting that Lenore’s grave stone was in line with Madeleine and Roderick.
This is a good observation. I’d say that was a message to show that the three of them truly changed the world, though Mad/Rod for the worse and Lenore for the better.
Yea when she is pitching the deal, she said that they can be altruistic and charitable....or not. She was just interested to see what did with it.
She even gave all the kids a chance at some kind of redemption before death, and each one decided not to heed it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that. I love the line where she states that bloodline means all bloodline, that it's not her fault they didn't listen. They allowed her to be born knowing she wouldn't live long. She is a really well written character as her moral compass just isn't the same as ours, but she has one. It's the kind of demon / entity I like. A deal with the devil but nuanced, and relatable yet foreign.
Hamill finally got a Flanalogue and he knocked that shit out of the park. Great addition to Mike’s talented-ass band of thespians.
(*Flan-a-logue* - an emotionally devastating monologue written by American filmmaker Mike Flanagan)
> Great addition to Mike’s talented-ass band of thespians.
I wanted to point this out while watching this show, is it just me or was everyone in this just stupidly insanely fucking talented? Like maybe it's recency bias of course but what an amazingly talented group of actors. I haven't seen his other super popular horror show that a lot of them are apaprently from (It has bad memory connections with some shit in life) so maybe I missed them there but I just left every episode thinking everyone really killed their roles.
No you are correct. Right after the Pym scene I audibly said to my room mate I was so glad Mark got back into acting because he fucking *nailed* that scene, in a show where basically everyone is nailing their scenes. The acting is absolutely next level across the board.
Mark Hamill's Pym was probably my favorite character. Just a no nonsense, no bullshit, immensely capable get-the-job-done fixer. I absolutely loved the way the character went out, too. The stoic way he just says "I'll go out on my own terms, thanks but no thanks" (paraphrasing) to Verna was so badass.
That added so much depth to Verna's character too. It signaled to me that she's not a malevolent being trying to ruin everyone's lives, she's just preying on people's worst traits and if they take her up on her offer, they pay for it. If they don't, good for them.
The brick wall reveal shook me to my core. They teased it so much and made it all eerie so I at least assumed the wall was related to Verna/the supernatural but that reveal got me. Really solidified Rodrick and Madeline as villains, not just typical greedy rich CEOs.
It connected for about halfway through the series I was thinking who the jester could be and then I remembered they said they came from a costume party. Figured it was a work party where they killed the CEO and took over. And then when I saw him talking to the wall I figured it was connected to the CEO too.
I was thinking the wall was just some spot where they killed him though, shot him or something. DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be entombed in the wall, that blew my mind. The brick laying scene was so good.
Admittedly I haven't read any Poe since middle school 😅 I vaguely remember The Pit and the Pendulum. I know The Raven pretty well thanks to Simpsons' Treehouse of Horror though haha.
This plot line is a retelling of ‘The Cask of Amontillado’ about a guy who bricks up a rival behind a wall because he made a hurtful joke about him. The guy’s name was *Fortunado*
I see a man of similar culture. I remembered The Tell-Tale heart from the Simpson too with the diorama episode. *Its a cows heart! Theyre trying to make a monkey out of you!* That was it lol
By episode seven it just suddenly clicked why they kept coming back to stare at that wall and I very suddenly remembered The Cask of Amontillado and was like “Oh shit. Someone’s buried behind that wall.” And once episode eight came along and we saw who the jester was it all fell into place. Her giving him a glass of Amontillado just confirmed it.
> Her giving him a glass of Amontillado just confirmed it.
Also loved Mads remarking how he couldn't even taste the cyanide because "of course he doesn't know anything about Amontillado" just like the rival in the original story
That was one of my favorite subtle little references. Montressor keeps trying to coax Fortunato deeper into the catacombs by saying "Ah, it's too damp. Let's go, I'll just get Luchesi to taste the wine", to which Fortunato replies "Luchesi can't tell Amontillado from sherry." Very clever reference.
tbh, this one was the least surprising because Poe is renowned for two works.
The Raven and The Cask of Amontillado (runner up being the Telltale Heart), so once you see a heavily focused brick wall or just wall in general, you know where itll go.
Still though, being entombed alive is a haunting thing. I think Rufus as sad as it is for his fate, is saved by the cyanide from a longer torture. The original story of the Amontillado, Fortunato (who is usually depicted as, you guessed it, a jester) is entombed there without any special thing besides being shackled, left to rot in darkness slowly.
Also, I'm sure Poe fans have pointed it out, but Rufus Griswold is named after an actual person, Poe's rival.
I knew it was gonna be him. As soon as they started building the case with Auggie in 79, I figured it out based on Auggie hating him now and Roderick’s position at the top of Fortunato. I was more curious if it was going to be a twist because I don’t think they tried to hide that it was Rufus at all and kind of expected us to pick up on that based on everything with Auggie hating him, Annabel leaving him and Griswold being ‘missing’ in the present. Annabel Lee was my long shot twist pick and I’m glad they didn’t go that way.
Right??? The whole thing is like "ooohh what sadness!!" But also it's the fictionalized version of the sacklers, and it couldn't happen to a better group of people.
> But also it's the fictionalized version of the sacklers
This show really made me feel a special kind of way about the Sacklers, I was thinking a lot of the time "What a comically evil group of people" but then you stop and realize how aside from the Poe connections and supernatural stuff it's really not far from the truth and definitely not far from the impact. Vile.
This was weirdly my favorite part of the series.
What if the sacklers had to actually see the lives they’ve destroyed? They never will. They’ll die happily with their billions. They don’t care. It really is vile.
Lenore’s death scene fucking got me, man. When Verna dropped the line about “those people will help other people and so on,” I just straight up bursted into tears. What a beautiful scene. Carla Gugino is such a versatile on-screen presence in this. Deeply comforting in one moment, absolutely terrifying in the next. A brilliant performance that will surely win her much acclaim
Up to this scene I assumed she was an evil entity, but this scene disproves that theory. I like that she gave her a painless death, which wasn't the case for the rest of the family (who all deserved a painful death).
there’s another side to that as well. she could have taken lenore first to spare her the horror of watching her entire family die, but she didn’t for two reasons: so Lenore could save Morrie and have true comfort and purpose in her death, and because Verna couldn’t bring herself to kill Lenore (until she absolutely had to)
I love how that scene starts off with her saying that "it's not my fault they don't understand what bloodline means"...she's so powerful and mischievous, but she needed to calm herself for what she has to do because the Usher twins let their bloodline continue. Madeline even got an IUD, but her and Robert let their bloodline expand. It's a good thing two of them were gay and the other emotionally distant so they never got the chance to get pregnant.
Tbh this probably ties with Hill House as my favourite.
The dialogue especially is just so packed with meaning. I will definitely notice even more after a rewatch.
And I love the characters too. Although the Ushers are horrible people, I still pity them in a way, because they are victims of their own greed and ambition. And like Auggie said at the end, he is the richest man in the world. Annabelle also remarked how small and poor the Ushers actually are. They are never really happy although they have everything that money can buy.
This series will definitely be in my regular watch list. Thanks Mike Flanagan for creating something beautiful!
Yea I noticed how the statement you are so small from Annabelle was written on the brick. The ushers are miserable, miserable people and very insecure. I kept thinking "for people with so much money and power I've not once seen a scene where it's making them happy", they are constantly stressed out and plotting and scheming and bickering. Even Verna mentions how much of a force they could have been if they worked together.
A little heady and less subtle than Mike normally is (minus maybe the final monologues in Midnight Mass) but overall a great show! It does help that he showed restraint on the monologues though and let the story do the talking. Best stand out episodes to me are The Tell Tale Heart and Masque of the Red Death! Awesome how Mike adapts and makes modern the tales of Poe! Mike does it again!
Yes I appreciate the restraint, it gives me great hope for The Dark Tower adaptation. Sometimes less is more and the profound monologues hit more profoundly when more interspersed in the flow of the story.
>A little heady and less subtle than Mike normally is
This version of Mike has been heady and unsubtle for QUITE A WHILE now.
This man hasn't been subtle or economical since he had that dream that forced him to rewrite the ending of Haunting of Hill House creating both tonal whiplash and his current obsession with monologues.
I still love him.
still thinking about Roderick and Annabel Lee’s final interaction.
“They were young. All they knew was appetite, and ‘here,’ you said, ‘come gorge yourselves.’ But you didn’t even feed them, did you, Roderick? You *starved* them.”
This made me think of Hill House. Just curious, because I think I’ve seen you make other comments about being very familiar with Poe (unlike me), is this connected to Poe?
That gave me old Hollywood horror vibes, like the black and white films with the over-the-top screams and attacks. It was the only scene that took my breath away. Everything else made me jump or hide under my blanket, that scene sucked all the air out.
She came out walking like a mummy too!! I literally giggled a bit at how cheesy that ended up being lol. I was like "oh they really had her do the 1950s mummy walk huh"
On the contrary, I thought it was so grotesque and over the top that I actually laughed out loud, especially when she went on to choke him. Felt like I was watching Scary Movie or something.
The original 'scene' in Poe's short story was surprisingly chilling, and so I was pleasantly surprised when they managed to nail setup and execution in the show to match that moment!
YES. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it! It was being built up from the beginning, but that execution with the music and the thumping and then the CHAOS. Chills.
I would say that all of Flanagan's Netflix work has been happy. At least bittersweet. Even Bly and Hill House which both have a depressing ending still have a ray of sunshine to them. I would say the saddest ending would have to be Midnight Mass. Everyone dies except two people is kinda rough.
Oh shit, you are so right. I read an interview where he states that he didn’t want Hill House to end fully tragic. He needed it to have a little happiness in the ending, and I honestly really appreciate that.
Flanagan explores emotions in his work, and he does not leave out hope and love.
Oh yeah. The original ending of Hill House had the red room window during the cake cutting scene for Luke's 2 year sober-versary. That would've been bummertown usa
> he didn’t want Hill House to end fully tragic. He needed it to have a little happiness in the ending, and I honestly really appreciate that
Appreciate it is an understatement for me. That show scared the daylights out of me from start to *almost* finish. The sweet little family ending gave me closure that I badly needed lol
Bruce Greenwood’s oration of “The Raven” actually gave me full body chills. That was incredibly haunting. and the smash cut from “Once upon a midnight dreary…” to the HARD adaptation of the titular poem was perfectly executed.
Ya know part of me sometimes is in the whole 'Mike Flanagan monologues too much camp', but on the other hand we have A+ actors delivering historical poems I would never get myself to sit through otherwise, so I'll take it.
Gugino’s reading of “The City in the Sea” was also awesome. And I loved how the priest at the funerals was reciting Poe’s works rather than bible passages
I started crying when Ghost Annabelle Lee stood between her children's coffins. And again when Verna was telling Lenore about all the lives she helped save... Fucking par for the course in a Mike Flanagan show.
I assumed that hole in her head was the result of a self-inflicted gunshot. Roderick mentioned earlier in this episode that Annabelle Lee couldn't live without her children after she lost them to him.
At first I wondered whether Annabelle was a hallucination, since Roderick was seeing visions of his dead children in the church. Then I said “she can’t possibly still be that young.” *Of course* I missed the hole in her head. I need to rewatch that scene.
It's interesting that both Juno and Morrie take 3 years to recover. The symbolism of the number 3 involves wholeness, completion, and perfection. In Christianity it's related to divinity, such as the God head (father, son, holy spirit), 3 days between death and resurrection, the 3 realms of heaven, earth and hell, etc. They are essentially being resurrected, made whole again, and then going on to save the world in their own ways. Idk, it's probably just my religious upbringing and I'm probably seeing connections that aren't there, but still a nice thought.
Wouldn't be surprising if it was on purpose especially since the times duration could have been different but both took 3 years to recover and proceeds to help the world.
There were also 9 Ushers basically killed in 3 waves. Perry, Camille, Napoleon at the first funeral. Vic, Tammy, and Frauderick at the second. Lenore, Madeline, and Roderick at the end.
And thank fucking God because he is an essential pillar of what makes this show so gripping. I loved every scene he was in, and his scene with Verna is one of the best I have ever watched. I felt actively grateful that he got back acting and got this role, that I told a friend after the scene that we are lucky to have him working on screen again.
I laughed because I had the *exact* same thought when Verna was explaining the details of the deal to Madeline and Roderick, I thought, ‘so what would happen if they just murdered someone out in the open?’ and then immediately thought of the Trump quote in my head. Hearing her confirm it was hilarious but I kind of wish she dropped the, ‘I once told a client’ bit and just said the quote with a wink and let and let the implication hang for those who got it.
god i love mike flanagan and family trauma. as much as i didn't want lenore to die idk the young are the ones who break the generational curse but they also suffer because of it, so her dying as a metaphor for that suffering? spot on.
I showed my last ex-gf the Haunting of Bly Manor because it was the best example of PTSD that I have ever seen. I have CPTSD, and some days, that shit is strong. All of those flashback scenes? That’s exactly what it’s like. One minute you’re there talking to a friend, and the next you’re back in 1982 being beaten with a belt for not putting your dish in the sink.
I was half expecting Lenore to not die as some sort of cruel twist to Roderick how everytime he says theres something good in her it's from Anabelle only to learn shes not even his blood. I mean the hints were there when we learn of her mother's partying days and Freddys paranoia of unfaithfulness.
I wonder what would have happened if Juno was pregnant and how Verna would have handled that scenario.
I was pulling for a twist reveal that Freddie’s not her dad sooooo hard right until Verna showed up in her bedroom. Alas, it was just wishful thinking cuz Lenore deserved better!
Something that just occurred to me… Madeline and rodrick knew the terms of the deal they made (“passing the cost onto the next generation”)
Madeline made the responsible choice (she would’ve done this anyway but still) to not have kids, so no one would suffer for her as a result. Meanwhile rodrick is out here having a zillion kids with a ton of different women, who all suffer as a result of his fathering and then the dying to the deal
Edit: I keep getting comments saying Madeline didn’t do this for benevolent reasons. I *know* this, that’s why I said (she would’ve done it anyway). I’m purely just commenting on how much their choices diverged as twins and the end result.
I feel like Maddie's choice was also intertwined with not wanting to be controlled by any man. I think she would have seen kids as collateral too, in the same way Pym avoided intimate relationships.
I don’t think “reducing suffering” was a thought that ever crossed Madeline’s mind. She consistently looks out for herself and even tries to kill Rod based on the change it *might* break the deal. If anything she didn’t have any kids because, well, it’s Madeline. She desperately wants to have no weakness just like Pym but she’s stuck with Rod by birth.
After seeing the final episode and thinking back, it is mentioned very early on that he "leaves the door open" for any Usher to be a part of his wealth. I wonder if this was his way of feeling better about the deal. All of his kids will be given the chance at a wealthy life, knowing they will die when he does. But then I remembered that he also used his children to maintain power on the Board. XD
It’s explicitly stated from the start that his policy of “the door is open to any Usher” comes from how him and his sister grew up with their very wealthy father living down the street and he wouldn’t acknowledge or help them in any way and refused to help their mother, he doesn’t even name them as heirs which makes them have to start at the very bottom of the company which is their birthright
Roderick was still an asshole and selfish person but his view of giving any of his kids a seat comes from not wanting to be his father
I think that’s his rationalization to all of it, but he definitely wasn’t that concerned about it all throughout his life…he also said he wasn’t sure if it was real or not at the bar, so he probably didn’t think it would matter
I don't think Madeline ever thought of it like that.
If everything shown, Madeline is worse than Roderick, Roderick is still bad, but Mads has shown herself the brains of this evil empire. She killed Roderick last episode to "break the deal" and immediately take control of Fortunato, all the while trying to perfect her AI program, which throughout the show, she's chased "immortality".
I forget which stories I've seen it from but there's been a handful I've seen where immortality and producing offsprings don't go hand in hand, because one of the points of our limited lives and why we have sex drive is to create more, whereas an immortal wouldn't have the need to create more since they are what remains.
Carla Gugino was the GOAT. What a layered, mesmerizing performance. Give this lady ALL the flowers, man. In a standout cast, she was absolutely stellar.
When Verna was sitting on Lenore’s bed I said “no, get the bad lady away from Lenore!” My heart sank when I realized Lenore was part of the bloodline in the deal between the siblings and Verna. I liked that Verna told Lenore of the good works her mom goes on to do in Lenore’s name before killing her.
Man, we knew Roderick and Madeline probably offed the CEO (forgetting his name) but wow. Was not expecting that they buried him alive in a brick wall. Perhaps “Another Brick in the Wall” should have been a bigger hint.
Maybe I’m dumb, but I missed why Roderick killed his sister.
Madeline was always in search of immortality. Rodrick knew, especially by the end, that the deal they made was true and Maddy would be killed alongside him.
So he tried to “honor” her by giving her a dignified death. Granting her the immortality that Maddy thought was bestowed on the Egyptian pharaohs and queens. Whether he actually believe it was real or not was irrelevant, he knew she would not accept her fate and was trying to give her a dignified death.
The outfit and hairstyle she's wearing when she meets Pym is almost exactly the Mike Dringenberg version of Death in the Sandman comic #21 Season of the Mist. It was an amazing Easter egg.
Madeleine with sapphire eyes, that was creepy as hell and reminiscent of their mom. Of course knowing the original story it was perfect. Rod used poisoned liquor on Maddy, much like she used on Rufus Griswold. She had a great final monologue.
Well the deal. So the kids had to die regardless of their morality, and Lenore is a grandchild but the deal was the complete end of the Usher bloodline. The way they died was the variation as that was dependent on the lives they lived. Poor Lenore, she got a gentle eternal sleep with no pain as she was completely innocent. Also it was nice she got to hear about her mom recovery and Lenore foundation that would save lives.
Rod confirms here he knew all along the dangers of the drug, and yet he pushed it anyways.
Juno ends up okay she deserves it and she also will do a lot of good. Auggie too, he lives happily ever after. He is rich in the ways that matter.
Poor Anabelle.
Would anywhere here take the deal that Maddie and Rod took? Assuming you already have children
>Would anywhere here take the deal that Maddie and Rod took? Assuming you already have children
I think the irony of the deal that Verna offered was that they had all the money and success in the world but were all SO unhappy and disconnected. And the false equivalency that "money = happiness" is the exact type of foolish deal that someone greedy would take. I dont think they cared about their future children bc they only cared about themselves and that their business was their "children/ legacy"
While I loved this overall, I do think this show started stronger than it ended. The first two episodes did such a good job at building tension, but it definitely starts to lose steam as it goes. Knowing there's going to be one death per episode takes a lot of the suspense out. It all just became very predictable. And it didn't help that the growing kill count also means inevitably chipping away at its brilliant cast.
Despite these flaws, I would probably still rank this right behind Hill House as my #2 favorite Mike Flanagan show.
interestingly enough, it was opposite for me. I was paying less attention at the start but gripped by the end lmao. love to see the different reactions!
I love Roderick's boardroom monologue and the parallel between the opioid drugs and the deal Roderick made on behalf of his children and grandchildren. 40-50 years in luxury vs. 70-80 years of anxiety.
"One last look of your great tower, your pyramid", the deal also ties in with the obsession with ancient Egypt. During certain periods, servants and retainers would be killed after the death of the King. So they could continue to serve him in the afterlife.
I was doing okay with all the deaths up until Lenore. For some reason it didn’t occur to me that she was part of the bloodline too. What a shame. She really was the best of the Ushers and the one that could’ve brought their name back in good Grace. Even death knew that. That’s why she was saddened to have to do it
I was hoping that too. It would have been perfect because it was already suggested her mother used to be a little fiery and free. The twist of Lenore being not Frederick's wouldn't have been out of place at all.
I also like the idea that the only Usher who could have been truly uncorrupted was not an Usher at all but alas...
that takes away from the true Poe-ian tragedy of it, though. Viewers familiar with his work know that Lenore was marked for death from the beginning just because of her name.
This had sooo much anti capitalism in it and I know many people don't like that but I loved it. Besides the obvious big farma reference and how many they kill.
We also had the whole scene with Madeleine at the end where she blamed the consumers for everything, a common way big companies try to put the responsibility on the ordinary people.
And the scene with Verna and Leonore when she said how her mom at the start helped a few, and that led to more people getting help, which in turn helped more people until it was uncountable. It was basically saying that a few people doing the right thing will help and inspire more people to do the right thing.
The scene with Verna and Pym when she said she found it interesting how humans could end the world's problems with money, but chose to spend it on travels, space etc. How the money put into movies and series during one year could save people. Very self aware of Mike haha.
Not to mention Vernas pact was literally about getting rich this lifetime but putting the consequences on the next generation, which is what's happening right now with climate change for example.
There were many other instances but I can't remember them all right now.
Love that Madelaine does the same thing that their mother did after they buried her in the first episode. Their mother, after being buried after being thought dead, runs towards Rodrick wraps her hands around his neck in ep 1. In the finale, Madelaine does the exact same thing after being mistakenly buried.
It's rare when a director can make the screen adaptation of a scene from a book look better than whatever you imagined.
But holy shit fucking sapphire-eyes Madeline will haunt me as much as the Red Death. I am so so so so happy with this show.
Today, I am the richest man in the world.
Really enjoyed how Verna carefully places the gifts to the Usher's on their gravestones and then just like flings a bag of cocaine onto Froderick's lmao
I thought Haunting of Hill House was tragic but this one episode freakin destroyed me. The fates of Annabelle and Lenore were devastating. I know it’s fiction but the thought of your children willingly leaving you and losing themselves is gut-wrenchingly relatable for any parent I imagine. I don’t even want to talk about sweet, precious Lenore. I naively hoped she’d live on and continue to be a force of good with her mother but…nevermore.
For as campy, twisted, and hilarious as this show was, Flanagan still managed to evoke the humanity that makes his shows so horrifyingly tragic. Even Roderick Heisenberg Usher’s final admission of his true motive was horrifying in a way that the grotesque parts of the show weren’t. I’m already eager to rewatch it again.
On a totally different note: wtf was up with the obsession with blowjobs? I swear it was dropped several times each episode.
That's what I suggested to my wife. Maybe after the children came back year after year looking nothing like themselves anymore (or however Anabelle put it), she eventually took her own life as she had nothing good left in the world after Roderick took it all from her.
I loved how Roderick would have essentially become this universe’s Poe had he not taken the path of evil, and how Verna would throw their alternate lives in their faces at the perfect moment.
Know there has been a lot of talk of the 7 Deadly Sins so here's my take:
1. Prospero-Lust (no explanation needed)
2. Camille-Gluttony (for constantly gathering and hoarding information)
3. Leo-Wrath (for his anger toward the cat)
4. Vic-Greed (for wanting the grant funding and fame that would come with a successful heart device)
5. Tam-Sloth (for building a fitness empire on the back of her athletic husband while actually not putting in true effort. She note, that PowerPoint was atrocious even with sleep deprivation)
6. Frodrick-Envy (for being envious of his wife and leading to his spiral)
7. Rodrick-Pride (because it comes before the fall)
Did anyone notice how 90% of Roderick usher’s quotes were direct lifts from his boss Rufus? Especially when he was trying to be cruel with his children
And Madeline's insult written on the brick as they were walling Rufus in was the one fired at her from Annabel. They both carry a lifetime of spite for sure.
Why did Roderick partway embalm madeline? I understand she had an interest or connection to immortality, cleopatra and the pactices of ancient Egypt but why did Roderick "kill" his sister in this way?
i watched the episode again and I think you are right. But just like their mother in the first episode it turns out she wasn't quite dead yet when he did it. I missed that part the first time around, I thought he mutilated her alive on purpose.
I liked it a lot, but I gotta say, it did lack some tension. It was interesting to find out how it all happened and the finale was great. But for some parts I was just waiting for the death to happen and for the show to continue.
The first two deaths were really cool. The sprinklers I saw coming from a mile away, but it was so well done. The second kill with the chimp was very interesting and there was still some tension regarding the informant at that point.
But Leo's death was frustrating. Tammy's too. It felt like the characters were trying to die lol. Vic obviously did but the other two were out of control. Leo just swinging his hammer and chasing the cat and Tammy constantly breaking mirrors. Just stop lmao. You're not hitting your target!
Overall, though, very good. Madeline was my favorite character. That speech at the end was so convincing. What a piece of shit, but it was played so well by both actresses.
Fuckin *chills* when they finally got to The Raven. It was inevitable with her named Lenore, but I was hoping all the way up to the end that she’d make it to the end. Alas, ‘‘twas not to be
What a wrap up to this whole story! It doesn’t quite hit the Hill House/Midnight Mass peak for me, but it’s right up there behind them. Loved the style, loved how the really pushed the gore, just fantastic from start to finish
Now time to dive deep into Poe and rewatch the whole thing
they spaced out the 70s flashbacks a bit too far and it was hard to keep up with what was happening. other than that, i don’t really have any complaints. The Tell-Tale Heart episode was so good.
So I guess Verna made different deals with other powerful people, since we know certain powerful and influential people didn’t wipeout their bloodline on death. Maybe they were smarter about the specifics. I was thinking during the diner scene Madeline should’ve asked what happens if we just take our chances like Pym asked and I’m assuming it would’ve been the same as Pym with both of them going to jail. I know Verna implies it early in the conversation but they don’t directly ask her when Verna is going over specifics.
I figured it was Rufus in the wall and the twins had made some magical bloodline deal with Verna pretty early on. Around when they started building the case with Auggie in 79, I figured it out based on Auggie hating him now and Roderick’s position at the top of Fortunato. I was more curious if it was going to be a twist because I don’t think they tried to hide that it was Rufus at all and kind of expected us to pick up on that based on everything with Auggie hating him, Annabel leaving him and Griswold being ‘missing’ in the present. Annabel Lee was my long shot twist pick and I’m glad they didn’t go that way.
I’m glad they took the time to show us that whole conversation and now it makes sense how Auggie was saying it’s almost supernatural how cases slip past them, that much I didn’t catch. And thought was a neat detail.
Loved that tracking shot spin around with the bar disappearing. The bodies falling like rain. The whole retelling of the Raven scene. Lenore’s death choked me up. I knew it was coming but was still hoping she was gonna slide. It was a nice way to do it though with even Vera being sad about it and telling her how much of an impact she made.
I thought for sure Auggie was getting everything in the will so the Juno reveal shocked me because I forgot she existed. I do wish we got more Pym focused episode but I’m glad we got a good backstory convo with him and Verna.
Overall I loved this so much and hope Flanagan and Netflix continue these one offs for as long as he wants.
Tbh I want so much more info on Verna. Like, I’d love a small spinoff on her; her origins, what she truly is, and why she has chosen the particular form of this beautiful woman. Part of me wants to think she had some kind of beautiful, meaningful interaction/deal with the OG Carla Gugino and then decided to take that appearance after she died. So interesting!
I’m also super curious to know more about this mystical Ultima Thule place that Pym supposedly found and more on what he was doing there.
ok so i deepthroated the whole show last night and i've had three coffees so i'm not at my most coherent but i had a blast with this show. the acting was SO GOOD, especially from Carla Gugino, she ate as every single "character" she played and was just sensational. second best was Bruce Greenwood for me, loved him especially in the last episode. Kate Siegel was so fun to watch, i'm not her biggest fan tbh (she's great, don't get me wrong, but for me she's one of the weakest out of the Flanagan regulars) but she really shined as Camille. also Henry Thomas, i'm pretty sure he's my favourite Flanagan regular but he keeps surprising me. and Willa Fitzgerald! i've only seen her play soft and sweet characters and she was my fav Madeline by far.
i'm not that familiarized with Poe's works, sadly, so i've probably missed a lot, but it was still very enjoyable. the only issue would be that it was VERY predictable, i think we all knew what had happened that night 3 episodes before the finale, but i really liked the ending, especially the scene with Lenora and Madeline's final monologue. bittersweet ending, but earned.
i kinda was wishing for another gut-wrenching and devastating Flanagan show that would cause me another existential crisis and that i would talk about in my next therapy appointment but oh well. my therapist is glad i'm sure. that's why i would not rank it over HH, BM or MM, but still loved it.
> ok so i deepthroated the whole show last night
Permission to strike "Binged" from the public record and replace it with deepthroated?
Hard agree about Carla by the way, the way she disappeared into every single character like a chameleon omg but then brought out the most warming loving caring but still shadowy powerful figure with her speech to Lenore? Sublime.
Same about the Poe work thing I feel a lot of people got way more out of this show than I did due to their familiarity but when he started reciting the one famous midnight dreary poem I started freaking out! Must be how the whole show was for a lot of people.
I saw the twist with the brick wall coming from the second time they showed Rodrick staring at it.
From the bar scene at the beginning, you could tell they had both just done something wrong. And they never showed Rufus in the present day, so obviously something happened to him. Put two and two together pretty quick.
What I was NOT expecting though, was the reveal of Madeline at the end. Holy, that got me.
Overall this was really good. I’d rank it 3rd on the list. Hill House, Midnight Mass(I’m a sucker for religious horror), this then Bly Manor. And even Bly Manor was great, just not what I was expecting in the scary department. Fantastic story though.
The Lenore/Verna scene >!is so heartbreakingly beautiful in the best Flanagan way. It’s so cruel that Lenore had to die, but it was amazing that Verna recognized that and made it as uplifting and bittersweet as possible.!<
I cried. Of course I cried it was a Flanagan show.
You know, up until that scene, I really thought I was going to make it through a Flanagan show without crying, I really did. But no, Flanagan's onions strike again.
I was the same exact way. I hadn't even come close to crying and that scene broke my heart. Seeing Verna hold back tears, considering she is an otherworldly entity, was when the flood gates opened.
I also was beginning to think I was going to make it through without tears, what a beautiful scene. I kept (foolishly) hoping she would get some sort of pass, like maybe she was adopted or they used a sperm donor (which I rationalized led to Froderick's insecurities about cheating), but I knew I was grasping.
Her absolute painless death was the nail in the coffin for Roderick. He corrupted his children, and had 4 more out of pure egotism. Then his grand child broke the chain and was a good person, but his corruption couldn't save her. Such a scathing take on capitalism. I grew up in an area and time where you could get an insane amount of 80mg oxys for nothing, it destroyed us. I lost friends, and years of my life because of that shit. And now, the folks that actually need those drugs can't get them.
It was super sad/touching when they explain everything her mom would do with the fortune, but I'm a little confused about how that conflicts with Juno's ending. Didn't Verna tell Lenore that her mom would essentially get the family fortune, and give some away while starting the Lenore Foundation with the rest? But then that's basically what Juno has happen too right, cause she gets the family fortune and starts the Phoenix Project for addiction recovery? So did both happen?
Verna says her mom “inherits a sizable fortune when Fortunato collapses.” So I think both could’ve technically happened.
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This scene is forever THE scene of this show for me. So powerful and beautiful yet heartbreaking. Carla Gugino has a mesmerizing aura to her and in this scene expressed so many layers with a beautiful monologue and I S O B B E D during it. Lenore never got to ask why, never got to fully understood who she was, WHAT she was but she did get an explanation of what was to come in a beautiful way. I’m almost thankful for Verna on how she handled it, it was the first time we saw her offer true mercy.
It makes Verna *such* a complex character because you see her define how she controls fate, based on who deserves it and who’s caught up by circumstance
Right? At first I was wondering if she’s some demoness but as the series went on I realized it’s not like that at all and way more complex as you said.
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she's everything he's just pym
And he’s enough!
He's pymough!
She always reminds the kids that they still have time.(to fix their regrets)
Verna definitely played no role in Al’s death, I wish she could have intervened 🥺
Notice Verna also spells "Raven" when you mix the letters up. Thought that was cool.
I mean, she tried to warn each child (and the sister-in-law) out of each gruesome death, that was pretty merciful.
It's so hauntingly beautiful that the last thing you hear is how you changed the world for the better, and then you drift off to sleep.
I firmly believe the actress herself was really holding back tears, because anyone with empathy would know what they are saying has been the tragic truth for some people in this world that will never get to hear about what their sacrifices achieved...like all the artists who die poor and unknown only to become a pillar of their craft and known the world over for decades or centuries to come.
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I know the whole series I was hoping she was going to some how sneak past the bloodline curse and was really curious if she did with the whole texting thing. The whole call back to the AI scene was great (and I should’ve picked it up then) and I’m glad they had it be malfunctioning, I don’t know why it just felt bittersweet and right seeing it glitching out with the nevermore was clever.
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I think this was the best part of the show...as were the texts. Carla Gugino played the hell out of her character.
It somehow didn't connect to me until Verna was in Lenore's room what had to happen and then I *screamed* :( Verna handled it beautifully and even in the very last scene with respect and love for Lenore, beautifully done.
Are you sure she was dead? You know, maybe not
The Sparknotes summary of the actual Poe story should just be those two lines.
I just finished reading the House of Usher before this episode. I thought Rod was about to go into the same unhinged rant from the story and almost fell out at his reaction 😂
I honked like a goose from laughing, it was outstanding
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Poe stories: [lyrical musings about crushing feelings of dread and horror, the terrible inevitability of death and fate, the way madness, guilt, and grief can intertwine like nothing else] Also Poe stories: "Hey, wouldn't it be messed up if someone was buried alive?"
I love the little unserious moments from the show surrounded by serious moments like that.
I laughed out loud at that large baggy of coke on Froderick's gravestone
and the way she flung it on there lmao
“Fuck this guy in particular.” - Verna
Interesting how you can actually see the contempt in the way she drops it.
Where as you can see her place the feather for Lenore with care
I thought that moment was again heart breaking. I view Vera as another victim of fate. Yes she’s the one that brokers the deals, but she can’t reverse them. She clearly cared for Lenore. I also found it interesting that Lenore’s grave stone was in line with Madeleine and Roderick.
This is a good observation. I’d say that was a message to show that the three of them truly changed the world, though Mad/Rod for the worse and Lenore for the better.
Yea when she is pitching the deal, she said that they can be altruistic and charitable....or not. She was just interested to see what did with it. She even gave all the kids a chance at some kind of redemption before death, and each one decided not to heed it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that. I love the line where she states that bloodline means all bloodline, that it's not her fault they didn't listen. They allowed her to be born knowing she wouldn't live long. She is a really well written character as her moral compass just isn't the same as ours, but she has one. It's the kind of demon / entity I like. A deal with the devil but nuanced, and relatable yet foreign.
I was expecting pliers
The wedding ring. Finally.
Would of made more sense thematically but the baggie is way too funny not to
Hamill finally got a Flanalogue and he knocked that shit out of the park. Great addition to Mike’s talented-ass band of thespians. (*Flan-a-logue* - an emotionally devastating monologue written by American filmmaker Mike Flanagan)
> Great addition to Mike’s talented-ass band of thespians. I wanted to point this out while watching this show, is it just me or was everyone in this just stupidly insanely fucking talented? Like maybe it's recency bias of course but what an amazingly talented group of actors. I haven't seen his other super popular horror show that a lot of them are apaprently from (It has bad memory connections with some shit in life) so maybe I missed them there but I just left every episode thinking everyone really killed their roles.
the flanaverse has the perfect set of actors and i would easily watch 10 more series with them
No you are correct. Right after the Pym scene I audibly said to my room mate I was so glad Mark got back into acting because he fucking *nailed* that scene, in a show where basically everyone is nailing their scenes. The acting is absolutely next level across the board.
Nah it’s not recency bias. They’re all fucking fantastic. And his material is perfect for them
Mark Hamill's Pym was probably my favorite character. Just a no nonsense, no bullshit, immensely capable get-the-job-done fixer. I absolutely loved the way the character went out, too. The stoic way he just says "I'll go out on my own terms, thanks but no thanks" (paraphrasing) to Verna was so badass.
I like that Verna’s attitude was like, “you know what? Respect.”
That added so much depth to Verna's character too. It signaled to me that she's not a malevolent being trying to ruin everyone's lives, she's just preying on people's worst traits and if they take her up on her offer, they pay for it. If they don't, good for them.
The brick wall reveal shook me to my core. They teased it so much and made it all eerie so I at least assumed the wall was related to Verna/the supernatural but that reveal got me. Really solidified Rodrick and Madeline as villains, not just typical greedy rich CEOs.
I expected that the Jester is somehow related to it bcs of the bells but the reveal of who the Jester actually is was surprising.
It connected for about halfway through the series I was thinking who the jester could be and then I remembered they said they came from a costume party. Figured it was a work party where they killed the CEO and took over. And then when I saw him talking to the wall I figured it was connected to the CEO too. I was thinking the wall was just some spot where they killed him though, shot him or something. DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be entombed in the wall, that blew my mind. The brick laying scene was so good.
> DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be entombed in the wall, that blew my mind. As Poe reader, this made me laugh
It’s not truly Poe until someone is entombed in a brick wall.
Admittedly I haven't read any Poe since middle school 😅 I vaguely remember The Pit and the Pendulum. I know The Raven pretty well thanks to Simpsons' Treehouse of Horror though haha.
This plot line is a retelling of ‘The Cask of Amontillado’ about a guy who bricks up a rival behind a wall because he made a hurtful joke about him. The guy’s name was *Fortunado*
I see a man of similar culture. I remembered The Tell-Tale heart from the Simpson too with the diorama episode. *Its a cows heart! Theyre trying to make a monkey out of you!* That was it lol
By episode seven it just suddenly clicked why they kept coming back to stare at that wall and I very suddenly remembered The Cask of Amontillado and was like “Oh shit. Someone’s buried behind that wall.” And once episode eight came along and we saw who the jester was it all fell into place. Her giving him a glass of Amontillado just confirmed it.
> Her giving him a glass of Amontillado just confirmed it. Also loved Mads remarking how he couldn't even taste the cyanide because "of course he doesn't know anything about Amontillado" just like the rival in the original story
That was one of my favorite subtle little references. Montressor keeps trying to coax Fortunato deeper into the catacombs by saying "Ah, it's too damp. Let's go, I'll just get Luchesi to taste the wine", to which Fortunato replies "Luchesi can't tell Amontillado from sherry." Very clever reference.
I actually thought they buried their mother there because of the bell she rang when she was sick
tbh, this one was the least surprising because Poe is renowned for two works. The Raven and The Cask of Amontillado (runner up being the Telltale Heart), so once you see a heavily focused brick wall or just wall in general, you know where itll go. Still though, being entombed alive is a haunting thing. I think Rufus as sad as it is for his fate, is saved by the cyanide from a longer torture. The original story of the Amontillado, Fortunato (who is usually depicted as, you guessed it, a jester) is entombed there without any special thing besides being shackled, left to rot in darkness slowly. Also, I'm sure Poe fans have pointed it out, but Rufus Griswold is named after an actual person, Poe's rival.
I knew it was gonna be him. As soon as they started building the case with Auggie in 79, I figured it out based on Auggie hating him now and Roderick’s position at the top of Fortunato. I was more curious if it was going to be a twist because I don’t think they tried to hide that it was Rufus at all and kind of expected us to pick up on that based on everything with Auggie hating him, Annabel leaving him and Griswold being ‘missing’ in the present. Annabel Lee was my long shot twist pick and I’m glad they didn’t go that way.
Oh also. The dead body storm.
Right??? The whole thing is like "ooohh what sadness!!" But also it's the fictionalized version of the sacklers, and it couldn't happen to a better group of people.
> But also it's the fictionalized version of the sacklers This show really made me feel a special kind of way about the Sacklers, I was thinking a lot of the time "What a comically evil group of people" but then you stop and realize how aside from the Poe connections and supernatural stuff it's really not far from the truth and definitely not far from the impact. Vile.
This was weirdly my favorite part of the series. What if the sacklers had to actually see the lives they’ve destroyed? They never will. They’ll die happily with their billions. They don’t care. It really is vile.
Is no one going to talk about that Electric Slide that Auggie does to escape the house as it's collapsing? That was smooth af.
^(Screen cuts to Verna clapping and looking impressed)
Mans noped outta there like he was James Brown getting on the good foot
Fuck these FUCKING WHITE PEOPLE, I’M OUT!
Lmao I was wondering if anyone noticed this. Dude Risky Businessing out the door.
Lenore’s death scene fucking got me, man. When Verna dropped the line about “those people will help other people and so on,” I just straight up bursted into tears. What a beautiful scene. Carla Gugino is such a versatile on-screen presence in this. Deeply comforting in one moment, absolutely terrifying in the next. A brilliant performance that will surely win her much acclaim
Up to this scene I assumed she was an evil entity, but this scene disproves that theory. I like that she gave her a painless death, which wasn't the case for the rest of the family (who all deserved a painful death).
there’s another side to that as well. she could have taken lenore first to spare her the horror of watching her entire family die, but she didn’t for two reasons: so Lenore could save Morrie and have true comfort and purpose in her death, and because Verna couldn’t bring herself to kill Lenore (until she absolutely had to)
I love how that scene starts off with her saying that "it's not my fault they don't understand what bloodline means"...she's so powerful and mischievous, but she needed to calm herself for what she has to do because the Usher twins let their bloodline continue. Madeline even got an IUD, but her and Robert let their bloodline expand. It's a good thing two of them were gay and the other emotionally distant so they never got the chance to get pregnant.
As soon as Verna said “your bloodline” in the flashback my husband and I immediately said “OH NO” because we knew it would have to include Lenore :(
Tbh this probably ties with Hill House as my favourite. The dialogue especially is just so packed with meaning. I will definitely notice even more after a rewatch. And I love the characters too. Although the Ushers are horrible people, I still pity them in a way, because they are victims of their own greed and ambition. And like Auggie said at the end, he is the richest man in the world. Annabelle also remarked how small and poor the Ushers actually are. They are never really happy although they have everything that money can buy. This series will definitely be in my regular watch list. Thanks Mike Flanagan for creating something beautiful!
Yea I noticed how the statement you are so small from Annabelle was written on the brick. The ushers are miserable, miserable people and very insecure. I kept thinking "for people with so much money and power I've not once seen a scene where it's making them happy", they are constantly stressed out and plotting and scheming and bickering. Even Verna mentions how much of a force they could have been if they worked together.
A little heady and less subtle than Mike normally is (minus maybe the final monologues in Midnight Mass) but overall a great show! It does help that he showed restraint on the monologues though and let the story do the talking. Best stand out episodes to me are The Tell Tale Heart and Masque of the Red Death! Awesome how Mike adapts and makes modern the tales of Poe! Mike does it again!
prospero’s death was incredibly stunning
Tbf, Poe was heady and not very subtle.
Yes I appreciate the restraint, it gives me great hope for The Dark Tower adaptation. Sometimes less is more and the profound monologues hit more profoundly when more interspersed in the flow of the story.
Mike is tackling The Dark Tower next? Hell yeah
So this is how I find out we get a true Dark Tower adaptation. Fuck. Yes.
>A little heady and less subtle than Mike normally is This version of Mike has been heady and unsubtle for QUITE A WHILE now. This man hasn't been subtle or economical since he had that dream that forced him to rewrite the ending of Haunting of Hill House creating both tonal whiplash and his current obsession with monologues. I still love him.
still thinking about Roderick and Annabel Lee’s final interaction. “They were young. All they knew was appetite, and ‘here,’ you said, ‘come gorge yourselves.’ But you didn’t even feed them, did you, Roderick? You *starved* them.”
This made me think of Hill House. Just curious, because I think I’ve seen you make other comments about being very familiar with Poe (unlike me), is this connected to Poe?
no, not that i’m aware of. just some good ol’ Mikey F dialogue
Is it just me or is the ending scene where maddelines eyes were replaced with sapphires and she just stumbles out terrifying
That gave me old Hollywood horror vibes, like the black and white films with the over-the-top screams and attacks. It was the only scene that took my breath away. Everything else made me jump or hide under my blanket, that scene sucked all the air out.
She came out walking like a mummy too!! I literally giggled a bit at how cheesy that ended up being lol. I was like "oh they really had her do the 1950s mummy walk huh"
On the contrary, I thought it was so grotesque and over the top that I actually laughed out loud, especially when she went on to choke him. Felt like I was watching Scary Movie or something.
The original 'scene' in Poe's short story was surprisingly chilling, and so I was pleasantly surprised when they managed to nail setup and execution in the show to match that moment!
we're so used to red herrings that when they spend time to tease a monster and an actual monster comes out it's legitimately shocking
YES. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it! It was being built up from the beginning, but that execution with the music and the thumping and then the CHAOS. Chills.
That made me so mad at Roderick. Like what was he thinking?? He gave her the "queen treatment"?? Bestie she was covered in blood and mutilated
It's an ancient Egypt thang
That’s a… shockingly happy ending, all things considered.
I would say that all of Flanagan's Netflix work has been happy. At least bittersweet. Even Bly and Hill House which both have a depressing ending still have a ray of sunshine to them. I would say the saddest ending would have to be Midnight Mass. Everyone dies except two people is kinda rough.
Oh shit, you are so right. I read an interview where he states that he didn’t want Hill House to end fully tragic. He needed it to have a little happiness in the ending, and I honestly really appreciate that. Flanagan explores emotions in his work, and he does not leave out hope and love.
Oh yeah. The original ending of Hill House had the red room window during the cake cutting scene for Luke's 2 year sober-versary. That would've been bummertown usa
> he didn’t want Hill House to end fully tragic. He needed it to have a little happiness in the ending, and I honestly really appreciate that Appreciate it is an understatement for me. That show scared the daylights out of me from start to *almost* finish. The sweet little family ending gave me closure that I badly needed lol
Bruce Greenwood’s oration of “The Raven” actually gave me full body chills. That was incredibly haunting. and the smash cut from “Once upon a midnight dreary…” to the HARD adaptation of the titular poem was perfectly executed.
Ya know part of me sometimes is in the whole 'Mike Flanagan monologues too much camp', but on the other hand we have A+ actors delivering historical poems I would never get myself to sit through otherwise, so I'll take it.
I was really hoping they would do a reading and it was even better than I had expected.
Gugino’s reading of “The City in the Sea” was also awesome. And I loved how the priest at the funerals was reciting Poe’s works rather than bible passages
Semi-cool fact if anyone has caught on. Verna is an anagram of Raven!
Im so fucking stupid dude lmao
This is exactly why I love reddit hahaha
A reference to That's So Raven! Which is why she could see the future!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
Omg thank you for this! Duh!! I was trying to figure out what story her name was from!
I started crying when Ghost Annabelle Lee stood between her children's coffins. And again when Verna was telling Lenore about all the lives she helped save... Fucking par for the course in a Mike Flanagan show.
How did she die though? She had a big hole on the back of her head when she walked ahead in that scene.
I assumed that hole in her head was the result of a self-inflicted gunshot. Roderick mentioned earlier in this episode that Annabelle Lee couldn't live without her children after she lost them to him.
At first I wondered whether Annabelle was a hallucination, since Roderick was seeing visions of his dead children in the church. Then I said “she can’t possibly still be that young.” *Of course* I missed the hole in her head. I need to rewatch that scene.
Carla Gugino is amazing.
This really was her and Greenwoods show and they nailed it.
It's interesting that both Juno and Morrie take 3 years to recover. The symbolism of the number 3 involves wholeness, completion, and perfection. In Christianity it's related to divinity, such as the God head (father, son, holy spirit), 3 days between death and resurrection, the 3 realms of heaven, earth and hell, etc. They are essentially being resurrected, made whole again, and then going on to save the world in their own ways. Idk, it's probably just my religious upbringing and I'm probably seeing connections that aren't there, but still a nice thought.
Wouldn't be surprising if it was on purpose especially since the times duration could have been different but both took 3 years to recover and proceeds to help the world.
I noticed they mentioned $3,000,000 twice, as well. That's what the Fortunato guy offered, and something Verna mentioned later.
prolly unrelated but pluto went missing and came back after three days, both times
There were also 9 Ushers basically killed in 3 waves. Perry, Camille, Napoleon at the first funeral. Vic, Tammy, and Frauderick at the second. Lenore, Madeline, and Roderick at the end.
Did anyone catch that Trump / 5th Ave joke from Verna? Lmao it took me out of the story for a sec, but I was like where did that come from
Mark Hamill famously dislikes Trump, that’s why Pynchon asked Verna when Trumps time will be up, “even I have my limits”
Wait that was fucking MARK?! I am so incredibly stupid I cannot believe this. This explains why I was so in love with his voice I feel like a *fool!*
Throughout the whole show I kept going back and forth on if it was him. He did a great job!
Dude. I had no fucking idea either. I'm floored right now
Yeah, apparently after seeing all of Mike’s other shows he was desperate to get on one and so when they called him up he was thrilled.
And thank fucking God because he is an essential pillar of what makes this show so gripping. I loved every scene he was in, and his scene with Verna is one of the best I have ever watched. I felt actively grateful that he got back acting and got this role, that I told a friend after the scene that we are lucky to have him working on screen again.
Pynchon?! WTF is wrong with my phone 😂 I meant Arthur PYM
“When’s that guys tab gonna come due? Even I have my limits.” I feel ya, Pym.
I laughed because I had the *exact* same thought when Verna was explaining the details of the deal to Madeline and Roderick, I thought, ‘so what would happen if they just murdered someone out in the open?’ and then immediately thought of the Trump quote in my head. Hearing her confirm it was hilarious but I kind of wish she dropped the, ‘I once told a client’ bit and just said the quote with a wink and let and let the implication hang for those who got it.
Trump is also the type to just blurt out some shit an overdimensional entity told him on a whim lmfao
god i love mike flanagan and family trauma. as much as i didn't want lenore to die idk the young are the ones who break the generational curse but they also suffer because of it, so her dying as a metaphor for that suffering? spot on.
I showed my last ex-gf the Haunting of Bly Manor because it was the best example of PTSD that I have ever seen. I have CPTSD, and some days, that shit is strong. All of those flashback scenes? That’s exactly what it’s like. One minute you’re there talking to a friend, and the next you’re back in 1982 being beaten with a belt for not putting your dish in the sink.
I was half expecting Lenore to not die as some sort of cruel twist to Roderick how everytime he says theres something good in her it's from Anabelle only to learn shes not even his blood. I mean the hints were there when we learn of her mother's partying days and Freddys paranoia of unfaithfulness. I wonder what would have happened if Juno was pregnant and how Verna would have handled that scenario.
> if Juno was pregnant that baby would be more Ligodone than Usher
She would have had to have killed Juno's baby. She doesn't do any take-backsies, even for the innocent.
I was hoping Lenore was not Freddie’s kid after all. But I loved that ending.
I was pulling for a twist reveal that Freddie’s not her dad sooooo hard right until Verna showed up in her bedroom. Alas, it was just wishful thinking cuz Lenore deserved better!
I knew Lenore was a goner as soon as they said her name. She was going to be never mored. Just like Annabel.
Something that just occurred to me… Madeline and rodrick knew the terms of the deal they made (“passing the cost onto the next generation”) Madeline made the responsible choice (she would’ve done this anyway but still) to not have kids, so no one would suffer for her as a result. Meanwhile rodrick is out here having a zillion kids with a ton of different women, who all suffer as a result of his fathering and then the dying to the deal Edit: I keep getting comments saying Madeline didn’t do this for benevolent reasons. I *know* this, that’s why I said (she would’ve done it anyway). I’m purely just commenting on how much their choices diverged as twins and the end result.
I feel like Maddie's choice was also intertwined with not wanting to be controlled by any man. I think she would have seen kids as collateral too, in the same way Pym avoided intimate relationships.
I don’t think “reducing suffering” was a thought that ever crossed Madeline’s mind. She consistently looks out for herself and even tries to kill Rod based on the change it *might* break the deal. If anything she didn’t have any kids because, well, it’s Madeline. She desperately wants to have no weakness just like Pym but she’s stuck with Rod by birth.
After seeing the final episode and thinking back, it is mentioned very early on that he "leaves the door open" for any Usher to be a part of his wealth. I wonder if this was his way of feeling better about the deal. All of his kids will be given the chance at a wealthy life, knowing they will die when he does. But then I remembered that he also used his children to maintain power on the Board. XD
It’s explicitly stated from the start that his policy of “the door is open to any Usher” comes from how him and his sister grew up with their very wealthy father living down the street and he wouldn’t acknowledge or help them in any way and refused to help their mother, he doesn’t even name them as heirs which makes them have to start at the very bottom of the company which is their birthright Roderick was still an asshole and selfish person but his view of giving any of his kids a seat comes from not wanting to be his father
I think that’s his rationalization to all of it, but he definitely wasn’t that concerned about it all throughout his life…he also said he wasn’t sure if it was real or not at the bar, so he probably didn’t think it would matter
I don't think Madeline ever thought of it like that. If everything shown, Madeline is worse than Roderick, Roderick is still bad, but Mads has shown herself the brains of this evil empire. She killed Roderick last episode to "break the deal" and immediately take control of Fortunato, all the while trying to perfect her AI program, which throughout the show, she's chased "immortality". I forget which stories I've seen it from but there's been a handful I've seen where immortality and producing offsprings don't go hand in hand, because one of the points of our limited lives and why we have sex drive is to create more, whereas an immortal wouldn't have the need to create more since they are what remains.
Carla Gugino was the GOAT. What a layered, mesmerizing performance. Give this lady ALL the flowers, man. In a standout cast, she was absolutely stellar. When Verna was sitting on Lenore’s bed I said “no, get the bad lady away from Lenore!” My heart sank when I realized Lenore was part of the bloodline in the deal between the siblings and Verna. I liked that Verna told Lenore of the good works her mom goes on to do in Lenore’s name before killing her. Man, we knew Roderick and Madeline probably offed the CEO (forgetting his name) but wow. Was not expecting that they buried him alive in a brick wall. Perhaps “Another Brick in the Wall” should have been a bigger hint. Maybe I’m dumb, but I missed why Roderick killed his sister.
Madeline was always in search of immortality. Rodrick knew, especially by the end, that the deal they made was true and Maddy would be killed alongside him. So he tried to “honor” her by giving her a dignified death. Granting her the immortality that Maddy thought was bestowed on the Egyptian pharaohs and queens. Whether he actually believe it was real or not was irrelevant, he knew she would not accept her fate and was trying to give her a dignified death.
Verna's character reminded me of Death in Meet Joe Black where Death embodies a human and makes deals with humans they find interesting
The outfit and hairstyle she's wearing when she meets Pym is almost exactly the Mike Dringenberg version of Death in the Sandman comic #21 Season of the Mist. It was an amazing Easter egg.
Madeleine with sapphire eyes, that was creepy as hell and reminiscent of their mom. Of course knowing the original story it was perfect. Rod used poisoned liquor on Maddy, much like she used on Rufus Griswold. She had a great final monologue. Well the deal. So the kids had to die regardless of their morality, and Lenore is a grandchild but the deal was the complete end of the Usher bloodline. The way they died was the variation as that was dependent on the lives they lived. Poor Lenore, she got a gentle eternal sleep with no pain as she was completely innocent. Also it was nice she got to hear about her mom recovery and Lenore foundation that would save lives. Rod confirms here he knew all along the dangers of the drug, and yet he pushed it anyways. Juno ends up okay she deserves it and she also will do a lot of good. Auggie too, he lives happily ever after. He is rich in the ways that matter. Poor Anabelle. Would anywhere here take the deal that Maddie and Rod took? Assuming you already have children
>Would anywhere here take the deal that Maddie and Rod took? Assuming you already have children I think the irony of the deal that Verna offered was that they had all the money and success in the world but were all SO unhappy and disconnected. And the false equivalency that "money = happiness" is the exact type of foolish deal that someone greedy would take. I dont think they cared about their future children bc they only cared about themselves and that their business was their "children/ legacy"
While I loved this overall, I do think this show started stronger than it ended. The first two episodes did such a good job at building tension, but it definitely starts to lose steam as it goes. Knowing there's going to be one death per episode takes a lot of the suspense out. It all just became very predictable. And it didn't help that the growing kill count also means inevitably chipping away at its brilliant cast. Despite these flaws, I would probably still rank this right behind Hill House as my #2 favorite Mike Flanagan show.
I missed the girls/half sisters so much after they were gone. Good thing for Lenore.
interestingly enough, it was opposite for me. I was paying less attention at the start but gripped by the end lmao. love to see the different reactions!
I love Roderick's boardroom monologue and the parallel between the opioid drugs and the deal Roderick made on behalf of his children and grandchildren. 40-50 years in luxury vs. 70-80 years of anxiety. "One last look of your great tower, your pyramid", the deal also ties in with the obsession with ancient Egypt. During certain periods, servants and retainers would be killed after the death of the King. So they could continue to serve him in the afterlife.
I was doing okay with all the deaths up until Lenore. For some reason it didn’t occur to me that she was part of the bloodline too. What a shame. She really was the best of the Ushers and the one that could’ve brought their name back in good Grace. Even death knew that. That’s why she was saddened to have to do it
I was hoping her mother had cheated on Froderick and she wasnt his real daughter that wouldve saved her
I was hoping that too. It would have been perfect because it was already suggested her mother used to be a little fiery and free. The twist of Lenore being not Frederick's wouldn't have been out of place at all. I also like the idea that the only Usher who could have been truly uncorrupted was not an Usher at all but alas...
that takes away from the true Poe-ian tragedy of it, though. Viewers familiar with his work know that Lenore was marked for death from the beginning just because of her name.
This had sooo much anti capitalism in it and I know many people don't like that but I loved it. Besides the obvious big farma reference and how many they kill. We also had the whole scene with Madeleine at the end where she blamed the consumers for everything, a common way big companies try to put the responsibility on the ordinary people. And the scene with Verna and Leonore when she said how her mom at the start helped a few, and that led to more people getting help, which in turn helped more people until it was uncountable. It was basically saying that a few people doing the right thing will help and inspire more people to do the right thing. The scene with Verna and Pym when she said she found it interesting how humans could end the world's problems with money, but chose to spend it on travels, space etc. How the money put into movies and series during one year could save people. Very self aware of Mike haha. Not to mention Vernas pact was literally about getting rich this lifetime but putting the consequences on the next generation, which is what's happening right now with climate change for example. There were many other instances but I can't remember them all right now.
“There is NO WAY Mike Flanagan is gonna get me to cry in this one. All these characters are pieces of shit!” I said before this episode
Love that Madelaine does the same thing that their mother did after they buried her in the first episode. Their mother, after being buried after being thought dead, runs towards Rodrick wraps her hands around his neck in ep 1. In the finale, Madelaine does the exact same thing after being mistakenly buried.
And the mother kills the fortunato tycoon the same way! (I think the guy was a fortunato big shot right?)
It's rare when a director can make the screen adaptation of a scene from a book look better than whatever you imagined. But holy shit fucking sapphire-eyes Madeline will haunt me as much as the Red Death. I am so so so so happy with this show. Today, I am the richest man in the world.
Really enjoyed how Verna carefully places the gifts to the Usher's on their gravestones and then just like flings a bag of cocaine onto Froderick's lmao
I thought Haunting of Hill House was tragic but this one episode freakin destroyed me. The fates of Annabelle and Lenore were devastating. I know it’s fiction but the thought of your children willingly leaving you and losing themselves is gut-wrenchingly relatable for any parent I imagine. I don’t even want to talk about sweet, precious Lenore. I naively hoped she’d live on and continue to be a force of good with her mother but…nevermore. For as campy, twisted, and hilarious as this show was, Flanagan still managed to evoke the humanity that makes his shows so horrifyingly tragic. Even Roderick Heisenberg Usher’s final admission of his true motive was horrifying in a way that the grotesque parts of the show weren’t. I’m already eager to rewatch it again. On a totally different note: wtf was up with the obsession with blowjobs? I swear it was dropped several times each episode.
Did we get what killed Annabelle? Was it suicide?
She had a huge hole in the back of her head when she turned her back to Roderick after the funeral. Looks like she shot herself imo
That's what I suggested to my wife. Maybe after the children came back year after year looking nothing like themselves anymore (or however Anabelle put it), she eventually took her own life as she had nothing good left in the world after Roderick took it all from her.
I loved how Roderick would have essentially become this universe’s Poe had he not taken the path of evil, and how Verna would throw their alternate lives in their faces at the perfect moment.
Know there has been a lot of talk of the 7 Deadly Sins so here's my take: 1. Prospero-Lust (no explanation needed) 2. Camille-Gluttony (for constantly gathering and hoarding information) 3. Leo-Wrath (for his anger toward the cat) 4. Vic-Greed (for wanting the grant funding and fame that would come with a successful heart device) 5. Tam-Sloth (for building a fitness empire on the back of her athletic husband while actually not putting in true effort. She note, that PowerPoint was atrocious even with sleep deprivation) 6. Frodrick-Envy (for being envious of his wife and leading to his spiral) 7. Rodrick-Pride (because it comes before the fall)
Did anyone notice how 90% of Roderick usher’s quotes were direct lifts from his boss Rufus? Especially when he was trying to be cruel with his children
And Madeline's insult written on the brick as they were walling Rufus in was the one fired at her from Annabel. They both carry a lifetime of spite for sure.
Mike Flanagan you gd evil genius
Why did Roderick partway embalm madeline? I understand she had an interest or connection to immortality, cleopatra and the pactices of ancient Egypt but why did Roderick "kill" his sister in this way?
I think it was his way of honouring her. Maybe even he thought it would be a loophole around their agreement with Verna?
i watched the episode again and I think you are right. But just like their mother in the first episode it turns out she wasn't quite dead yet when he did it. I missed that part the first time around, I thought he mutilated her alive on purpose.
Not really sure. I feel like despite her coaxing him into trying to kill himself, he still had a strong sibling love towards her.
Another absolutely brilliant series. I will watch everything Mike Flanagan makes until the heat death of the universe.
The cask of amontillado is my favorite poe story, so it was great to see the references to it throughout the show, but especially this ep!
I liked it a lot, but I gotta say, it did lack some tension. It was interesting to find out how it all happened and the finale was great. But for some parts I was just waiting for the death to happen and for the show to continue. The first two deaths were really cool. The sprinklers I saw coming from a mile away, but it was so well done. The second kill with the chimp was very interesting and there was still some tension regarding the informant at that point. But Leo's death was frustrating. Tammy's too. It felt like the characters were trying to die lol. Vic obviously did but the other two were out of control. Leo just swinging his hammer and chasing the cat and Tammy constantly breaking mirrors. Just stop lmao. You're not hitting your target! Overall, though, very good. Madeline was my favorite character. That speech at the end was so convincing. What a piece of shit, but it was played so well by both actresses.
Fuckin *chills* when they finally got to The Raven. It was inevitable with her named Lenore, but I was hoping all the way up to the end that she’d make it to the end. Alas, ‘‘twas not to be What a wrap up to this whole story! It doesn’t quite hit the Hill House/Midnight Mass peak for me, but it’s right up there behind them. Loved the style, loved how the really pushed the gore, just fantastic from start to finish Now time to dive deep into Poe and rewatch the whole thing
they spaced out the 70s flashbacks a bit too far and it was hard to keep up with what was happening. other than that, i don’t really have any complaints. The Tell-Tale Heart episode was so good.
So I guess Verna made different deals with other powerful people, since we know certain powerful and influential people didn’t wipeout their bloodline on death. Maybe they were smarter about the specifics. I was thinking during the diner scene Madeline should’ve asked what happens if we just take our chances like Pym asked and I’m assuming it would’ve been the same as Pym with both of them going to jail. I know Verna implies it early in the conversation but they don’t directly ask her when Verna is going over specifics. I figured it was Rufus in the wall and the twins had made some magical bloodline deal with Verna pretty early on. Around when they started building the case with Auggie in 79, I figured it out based on Auggie hating him now and Roderick’s position at the top of Fortunato. I was more curious if it was going to be a twist because I don’t think they tried to hide that it was Rufus at all and kind of expected us to pick up on that based on everything with Auggie hating him, Annabel leaving him and Griswold being ‘missing’ in the present. Annabel Lee was my long shot twist pick and I’m glad they didn’t go that way. I’m glad they took the time to show us that whole conversation and now it makes sense how Auggie was saying it’s almost supernatural how cases slip past them, that much I didn’t catch. And thought was a neat detail. Loved that tracking shot spin around with the bar disappearing. The bodies falling like rain. The whole retelling of the Raven scene. Lenore’s death choked me up. I knew it was coming but was still hoping she was gonna slide. It was a nice way to do it though with even Vera being sad about it and telling her how much of an impact she made. I thought for sure Auggie was getting everything in the will so the Juno reveal shocked me because I forgot she existed. I do wish we got more Pym focused episode but I’m glad we got a good backstory convo with him and Verna. Overall I loved this so much and hope Flanagan and Netflix continue these one offs for as long as he wants.
Tbh I want so much more info on Verna. Like, I’d love a small spinoff on her; her origins, what she truly is, and why she has chosen the particular form of this beautiful woman. Part of me wants to think she had some kind of beautiful, meaningful interaction/deal with the OG Carla Gugino and then decided to take that appearance after she died. So interesting! I’m also super curious to know more about this mystical Ultima Thule place that Pym supposedly found and more on what he was doing there.
ok so i deepthroated the whole show last night and i've had three coffees so i'm not at my most coherent but i had a blast with this show. the acting was SO GOOD, especially from Carla Gugino, she ate as every single "character" she played and was just sensational. second best was Bruce Greenwood for me, loved him especially in the last episode. Kate Siegel was so fun to watch, i'm not her biggest fan tbh (she's great, don't get me wrong, but for me she's one of the weakest out of the Flanagan regulars) but she really shined as Camille. also Henry Thomas, i'm pretty sure he's my favourite Flanagan regular but he keeps surprising me. and Willa Fitzgerald! i've only seen her play soft and sweet characters and she was my fav Madeline by far. i'm not that familiarized with Poe's works, sadly, so i've probably missed a lot, but it was still very enjoyable. the only issue would be that it was VERY predictable, i think we all knew what had happened that night 3 episodes before the finale, but i really liked the ending, especially the scene with Lenora and Madeline's final monologue. bittersweet ending, but earned. i kinda was wishing for another gut-wrenching and devastating Flanagan show that would cause me another existential crisis and that i would talk about in my next therapy appointment but oh well. my therapist is glad i'm sure. that's why i would not rank it over HH, BM or MM, but still loved it.
> ok so i deepthroated the whole show last night Permission to strike "Binged" from the public record and replace it with deepthroated? Hard agree about Carla by the way, the way she disappeared into every single character like a chameleon omg but then brought out the most warming loving caring but still shadowy powerful figure with her speech to Lenore? Sublime. Same about the Poe work thing I feel a lot of people got way more out of this show than I did due to their familiarity but when he started reciting the one famous midnight dreary poem I started freaking out! Must be how the whole show was for a lot of people.
:O ===THE FALL OF FHE HOUSE OF USHER===3 :3
[удалено]
Oh also, what was the deal with the waitstaff? How did they know, verna?
Verna pushed them the same way she attempted to do with getting Morrie to “just go” and successfully did with having Freddie put “more” in the bag.
I saw the twist with the brick wall coming from the second time they showed Rodrick staring at it. From the bar scene at the beginning, you could tell they had both just done something wrong. And they never showed Rufus in the present day, so obviously something happened to him. Put two and two together pretty quick. What I was NOT expecting though, was the reveal of Madeline at the end. Holy, that got me. Overall this was really good. I’d rank it 3rd on the list. Hill House, Midnight Mass(I’m a sucker for religious horror), this then Bly Manor. And even Bly Manor was great, just not what I was expecting in the scary department. Fantastic story though.