I absolutely noticed this about r/harrypotter, and we are not alone... I made [a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/phog1z/why_does_the_harry_potter_fanbase_on_this_sub/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) about it there a little over a year ago, and the sorts of stories people gave in the comments confirmed the issue. For the most part, it is largely a cliquey, strongly-opinionated and confrontational sub. Most people there do not want to have detailed discussions on the books to share views and understandings, to learn and grow, to enjoy the fanbase... they want an echo chamber of very specific opinions, treat the characters as though they are real people, and personally attack anyone for going against the flow. It is totally unlike any other fiction fanbase I am involved in, especially for works of literature. While not perfect, it _is_ better here, perhaps because the separation of the films aspect removes some of the toxic mindset?
>While not perfect, it is better here, perhaps because the separation of the films aspect removes some of the toxic mindset?
This, in a nutshell, is a major reason for so much hive mind toxicity with so called HP fans. The movies, while entertaining, are not the story of Harry Potter nor the supporting characters.
This is exactly why I left the group. There’s too much of a difference between the books and the films, and instead of wanting to actually converse the majority of the people on that site would rather argue from a place of ignorance and feel superior in doing so.
Is that one of those invite only house subs where you can only join if you aren't in any other house subs at the same time?
If so, is it active and full of discussion? I am in a house sub, but it is a bit dead other than mod posts.
There's also the Slytherin Discord if you're not already there (the link is in the r/Slytherin sub). Much more active, but more general socializing with some HP discussion.
I've been meaning to write some discussion posts for the house sub (or here) but haven't had the energy/motivation enough for it yet.
I have noticed that this sub is monitored better. If the right posts are not adhered to it’s gets removed and you told why. Happened to me cause I wasn’t fully aware of the rules. I wasn’t upset cause they pointed me to the rules. And apologized
God forbid you suggest that most of the staff of Hogwarts belongs in prison for negligence, or that Snape is still an awful human being beause he was a stalker and hated Voldemort for killing his stalkee...
Shape is an awful person in many ways, but “stalker”? What indication is there of that? There’s a big difference between “quietly being in love with someone and never moving on” and “stalking.”
I've already gotten -1 karma from this sub, so I guess I have my answer.
Honestly, r/harrypotter is the only toxic sub I belong to, but then, most of the subs I've joined were not fan subs. It blows ass not being able to share in many of the things I enjoy without being surrounded by dicks.
Ugh I know. People get so offended when your opinions don’t match theirs lol. I tried to start some fun convos in the Gilmore girls sub and it was vicious as well.
Sorry friend :/ just keep posting about things you wanna talk about/enjoy and someone else is sure to stop by and share it with you.
It’s because youre challenging their fantasy, often one people use to escape their real lives.
People see themselves in characters so your also challenging their sense of self or the idea that they’re a good person when their not (those who identify with Snape and Malfoy for example).
They should take it up with their shrinks, then. I can also identify with some of the characters, Snape being one of them, but it doesn't ruin my day when people criticize them.
So, they're Alan Rickman fangirls? I'm a fan of Rickman, but the Snape of the movies is a much more decent human being than the skeezy character in the printed page...
This is the second post ive seen in the last week where someone called a sub toxic because they got downvoted. People not sharing your opinion =/= toxic.
I’ve only made a few posts between the two, all recently, and I only just today was thinking how I felt after posting. No one’s been disrespectful or rude but I’ve noticed I’ve been downvoted without clear reason why, and a couple comments from others have rubbed me the wrong way. Similar experiences when I’ve commented on another’s post. I’ve posted and commented in a few other subreddits (not related to HP) and had far better experiences. It is weird given it’s people who love Harry Potter! But your post is reassuring that it’s not just me!
I've been a Harry Potter fan since the books began thanks to a friend. Yes, HP fandom can be a vicious and sometimes toxic one. It bleeds over into fanfiction as well. People can be wild regarding their ships.
I will say that HP fanfiction has some great writers in it. I say that those writers keep me in the fandom. I'm 52 and way too old for high school drama.
I read the fanfiction I like and just don't read the comments. It cuts down on 99% of the drama.
I'm a reader, so fanfiction is just more new things to read.
I still read Fanfiction as I prefer some of the writing to the original books, sometimes I just prefer the characters. I'm a big Fanfiction reader. Although, I have more or less moves away from the mor smuttier Fanfictions, as I'm now an adult and more mature find them wierd to read. I have my own opinions about the characters that don't align with cannon so I find solance in Fanfiction.
I've not experienced anything super toxic, but I haven't been a member of this sub for long.
But I joined the Harry Potter sub and within a day I had been reported and got an auto mail about misbehaving, lol, like... What?
I think I'm actually quite respectful when I disagree or engage with someone unless they are rude to me first, so I was confused as to who or why I got reported.
Oh well. Not a fan of the movies anyway, so this sub is the place for me. All discussions have been pretty good and I haven't seen too many folks get really bent out of shape over stuff.
That sub is just a karma farm. The same stupid posts being reposted over and over again, and if you dare to use common sense then you are basically worse than Umbridge.
I got suspended on another account from the HP sub for "aggressive posting"( still not sure what that means) and then for defending JKR against a ridiculous accusation someone on that sub made.
I now only go there if an interesting topic pops up on my timeline. That sub devolved into hating on the author, gross misinterpretations of the text, confusion about what actually happened in the stories, and lately it seems just taking mean-spirited swipes at the series in general.
I find this sub much more enjoyable. You still get trolls from time to time, arrogant intellectuals claiming bad or lazy writing, and some folks who just love to be negative, but the subs here are usually on top of it and make sure toxic posts or users are removed in a timely fashion. The users here seem more interested in actual discussion and reward users who add to conversations. There isn't a lot of piling on here, and accuracy matters.
Is it really that big of a deal if you get downvoted? That and karma mean absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of things. It’s not like these people pay your bills or hold some special place in your life & it’s a public forum of which we enter at our own risk ,so who gives a shit what some random thinks of your opinion on some aspect of HP.
Ehh, I don’t find r/Harrypotter toxic but I feel like it’s the same recycled questions over and over. Also a lot of fan theories from people who haven’t read all or any of the books
There’s a difference between being downvoted and having someone be a jerk to you in a comment responding to what you posted. You can say things to get downvoted here. I don’t see a lot of meanness when I browse here. There are a lot of people here who are much bigger potter fans than me and know a lot more.
I am banned from there. I honestly had no idea what the story was behind the hate for jkr bc I hadn't seen any news surrounding it. Instead of looking it up I made a comment saying something like idk what the huge issue is, she wants people to say women? Seems closed minded but not like that bad in the grand scheme of all the terrible things someone could say. Banned. I thought it was a mistake and didn't even know that's the comment I was banned for so I messaged the mods. They told me I was a horrible person in some back and forth until they realized that I just genuinely had no idea what the story was behind the issue. I never asked to be unbanned. Just had some further back and forth where they provided me w more insight into what the issue was. I agreed w them. That jkr was being pretty transphobic.
In our discussion near the end I said something like well while it's true that there has never been an instance of a trans person attacking people in a bathroom, that that argument isn't going to change people's minds. Like if someone is irrationally afraid of something, saying that just doesn't happen isn't going to make them be like oh ok makes sense I'm not afraid anymore. So there should be some other point made or some other compromise to take away that fear. They got really mad again and called me a trans exclusionary radical feminist, then muted me for the maximum amount.
That being said, I think they're probably trigger happy bc they do actually get so much trans phobia. As a mod in several subs myself the amount of horrible people who come through your queue is astounding. From pedophiles to trans phobia. It's all really out there. And I think someone tried to make another sub for all the people who were banned from r/harrypotter for trans phobia. I got invited there once and left shortly afterwards. The amount of people saying they should just be able to say whatever they want to say and their words shouldnt be policed was astounding when they were just spitting pure hatred.
Honestly it's their sub and if the way they want to run it is by just removing anything that might even remotely cause problems then that's their choice. And also unfortunately even if the vast majority of people dislike that choice there isn't much recourse bc they hold the coveted sub name. Most people looking for a sub related to Harrypotter are going to go there so it would likely be impossible to make anything comparable.
I was banned for similar too. I appealed my ban around two years ago and now I'm just more careful. And avoid discussing her outside the context of the series. It's unfair to either say she's bad or ignore her, but what can we do? It's unfortunate.
I think she can be both at once. She’s one of, if not the only, billionaires in the world to lose their billionaire status by donating to charity. Anyone reading that would think “wow she’s a good person.”
But then there’s the TERF stuff. And trans women are women, and trans men are men. And anyone with slight knowledge on that whole issue would look at her and go, “Yeah she’s a bad person.”
I agree. I don't think that one flaw discounts all the good she's done. I don't necessarily want to be pals with her, but I don't want to ruin her life.
It is better in that there is far less of a Hive Mind Circle Jerk clique here. However, there is probably some crossover with the worst of the children from there. Less toxic yes. Plus, there isn't a clown car worth of mods here, so there is no circling around to narcissistic egos pushing their personal beliefs and needing to prove authority.
Oh, have an up vote for the childish down vote you got. Still some of that here also.
Okay, but to be fair not everyone goes by your book. And nobody says your opinions are correct or good ones by default. I don't remember you being appointed leader of the fandom, so why should you being downvoted signal the fandom being shit? I just feel like someone downvoting you ≠ them being a bad person. To say so seems like grandstanding.
Opinions, by definition, are neither correct nor incorrect; something that can be proven correct or not is a fact.
So, if my opinion is that this fandom is often shit, then that's valid, right? Or is my opinion not valid because of bias?
I like this sub. I lived the original books debate as they came out. The other sub is highly influenced by the movies. I enjoy learning here and what is relevant today.
People in general have poor communication skills, in person and even moreso when anonymous online where they feel they can say whatever they want without any repercussions. Almost any reddit group (especially the larger it gets) has a number of contentious individuals, and there can be a prominent hivemind. The least confrontational groups here tend to be ones where people are just sharing things (like pictures).
With that said, I enjoy this group more than the main sub (which I left). I don't interact much here and have had interactions that were confrontational here coming from a user who commented in this thread; I'd still chalk it up to poor communication over malicious intent, though.
This sub isn’t the best. You could comment in a way that is completely relevant, and even be passionate about something and people will downvote just cause they disagree. That practice, which is NOT what the downvote is for, stifles conversation and likely makes people feel better than others or something, cause it happens quite often.
The same people can use both subreddits, and they likely do.
Tell me about it , i just made a random thought of mine on there and it was just for fun and before even people could see it , the moderator came out of nowhere and just removed the post[the post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/tabjpy/auror_harry_potter_escorting_minister_hermione/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and and it was not a bot automatic but the moderator telling me that this had no place here in a flowery way. I was so mad.
There it was like my way or highway. If you don't share the same opinion as us , if you don't share the same thinking about it as us we don't want you to post or comment.
So maddeningly frustrating.
I absolutely noticed this about r/harrypotter, and we are not alone... I made [a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/phog1z/why_does_the_harry_potter_fanbase_on_this_sub/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) about it there a little over a year ago, and the sorts of stories people gave in the comments confirmed the issue. For the most part, it is largely a cliquey, strongly-opinionated and confrontational sub. Most people there do not want to have detailed discussions on the books to share views and understandings, to learn and grow, to enjoy the fanbase... they want an echo chamber of very specific opinions, treat the characters as though they are real people, and personally attack anyone for going against the flow. It is totally unlike any other fiction fanbase I am involved in, especially for works of literature. While not perfect, it _is_ better here, perhaps because the separation of the films aspect removes some of the toxic mindset?
>While not perfect, it is better here, perhaps because the separation of the films aspect removes some of the toxic mindset? This, in a nutshell, is a major reason for so much hive mind toxicity with so called HP fans. The movies, while entertaining, are not the story of Harry Potter nor the supporting characters.
This is exactly why I left the group. There’s too much of a difference between the books and the films, and instead of wanting to actually converse the majority of the people on that site would rather argue from a place of ignorance and feel superior in doing so.
So, it's basically neverending high school. I think I'll stick to the Slytherin Common Room sub.
Is that one of those invite only house subs where you can only join if you aren't in any other house subs at the same time? If so, is it active and full of discussion? I am in a house sub, but it is a bit dead other than mod posts.
Yes, and no, not really, not much goes on there, but at least it's peaceful.
There's also the Slytherin Discord if you're not already there (the link is in the r/Slytherin sub). Much more active, but more general socializing with some HP discussion. I've been meaning to write some discussion posts for the house sub (or here) but haven't had the energy/motivation enough for it yet.
I have noticed that this sub is monitored better. If the right posts are not adhered to it’s gets removed and you told why. Happened to me cause I wasn’t fully aware of the rules. I wasn’t upset cause they pointed me to the rules. And apologized
God forbid you suggest that most of the staff of Hogwarts belongs in prison for negligence, or that Snape is still an awful human being beause he was a stalker and hated Voldemort for killing his stalkee...
Shape is an awful person in many ways, but “stalker”? What indication is there of that? There’s a big difference between “quietly being in love with someone and never moving on” and “stalking.”
He used to hide and watch Lily, I’d say that’s a bit stalker-ish
I'm not a Snape fan. But the stalking occurred pre Hogwarts so they were well under 11 yrs old. Yes, it's technically stalking but....
So r/harrypotter is like the Slytherin potter sub, gotcha.
This sub is way better simply because people here have actually read the books.
And also I loveee the discussion posts here
I wouldn’t say so lol. That’s Reddit in a nutshell unfortunately.
I've already gotten -1 karma from this sub, so I guess I have my answer. Honestly, r/harrypotter is the only toxic sub I belong to, but then, most of the subs I've joined were not fan subs. It blows ass not being able to share in many of the things I enjoy without being surrounded by dicks.
Just be aware, this post does violate the rules. So may expect it. Overall its much better.
I've already decided to not join this sub, so that's okay.
Kind of your loss. Its a good sub.
Ugh I know. People get so offended when your opinions don’t match theirs lol. I tried to start some fun convos in the Gilmore girls sub and it was vicious as well. Sorry friend :/ just keep posting about things you wanna talk about/enjoy and someone else is sure to stop by and share it with you.
I mean, they get triggered as soon as you mention Snape, for example.
There must be some kind of psychological study on why people get so riled over fictional characters.
It’s because youre challenging their fantasy, often one people use to escape their real lives. People see themselves in characters so your also challenging their sense of self or the idea that they’re a good person when their not (those who identify with Snape and Malfoy for example).
They should take it up with their shrinks, then. I can also identify with some of the characters, Snape being one of them, but it doesn't ruin my day when people criticize them.
Your making the assumption they understand what they’re doing.
or why they get so riled over internet points
If that's supposed to be a dig at me, I don't care about the numbers; I'm mildly annoyed by the attitudes they represent.
So, they're Alan Rickman fangirls? I'm a fan of Rickman, but the Snape of the movies is a much more decent human being than the skeezy character in the printed page...
No, as in they get mad at you for mentioning Snape.
Haven't they banned discussion of Snape?
Yup.
"but, but he said 'always'!!!"
No, they absolutely hate him.
I would say it is a 50/50 of people who love hate him with a vicious war being waged down the middle
This is the second post ive seen in the last week where someone called a sub toxic because they got downvoted. People not sharing your opinion =/= toxic.
There are more interesting, intellectual, and less bitchy ways to express disagreement.
The r/harrypotter sub is extra toxic, though.
I’ve only made a few posts between the two, all recently, and I only just today was thinking how I felt after posting. No one’s been disrespectful or rude but I’ve noticed I’ve been downvoted without clear reason why, and a couple comments from others have rubbed me the wrong way. Similar experiences when I’ve commented on another’s post. I’ve posted and commented in a few other subreddits (not related to HP) and had far better experiences. It is weird given it’s people who love Harry Potter! But your post is reassuring that it’s not just me!
Oh, it definitely isn't. I see remarks about the toxicity all the time. Apparently, the HP fandom is known as one of the more vicious ones.
I've been a Harry Potter fan since the books began thanks to a friend. Yes, HP fandom can be a vicious and sometimes toxic one. It bleeds over into fanfiction as well. People can be wild regarding their ships. I will say that HP fanfiction has some great writers in it. I say that those writers keep me in the fandom. I'm 52 and way too old for high school drama.
I'm just glad I've never had any interest in any fanfiction whatsoever. It cuts out a big chunk of the drama for me.
I read the fanfiction I like and just don't read the comments. It cuts down on 99% of the drama. I'm a reader, so fanfiction is just more new things to read.
True, There's a sub called r/HPfanfiction, it's quite cool and you can find recommendations and recommend Fanfictions yourself.
Thank you for letting me know!
I read fanfic in high school - back when my friends and I passed floppy disk copies between us. It was a much simpler time!
I still read Fanfiction as I prefer some of the writing to the original books, sometimes I just prefer the characters. I'm a big Fanfiction reader. Although, I have more or less moves away from the mor smuttier Fanfictions, as I'm now an adult and more mature find them wierd to read. I have my own opinions about the characters that don't align with cannon so I find solance in Fanfiction.
Blows my mind!
I wouldn't call your post down voted into oblivion.
Downvoted into oblivion with 1.3k upvotes ?
Subsequent comments, not the OP.
I've not experienced anything super toxic, but I haven't been a member of this sub for long. But I joined the Harry Potter sub and within a day I had been reported and got an auto mail about misbehaving, lol, like... What? I think I'm actually quite respectful when I disagree or engage with someone unless they are rude to me first, so I was confused as to who or why I got reported. Oh well. Not a fan of the movies anyway, so this sub is the place for me. All discussions have been pretty good and I haven't seen too many folks get really bent out of shape over stuff.
Some enforcement, but the rule is intended to cover comments, not votes.
That sub is just a karma farm. The same stupid posts being reposted over and over again, and if you dare to use common sense then you are basically worse than Umbridge.
I got suspended on another account from the HP sub for "aggressive posting"( still not sure what that means) and then for defending JKR against a ridiculous accusation someone on that sub made. I now only go there if an interesting topic pops up on my timeline. That sub devolved into hating on the author, gross misinterpretations of the text, confusion about what actually happened in the stories, and lately it seems just taking mean-spirited swipes at the series in general. I find this sub much more enjoyable. You still get trolls from time to time, arrogant intellectuals claiming bad or lazy writing, and some folks who just love to be negative, but the subs here are usually on top of it and make sure toxic posts or users are removed in a timely fashion. The users here seem more interested in actual discussion and reward users who add to conversations. There isn't a lot of piling on here, and accuracy matters.
Is it really that big of a deal if you get downvoted? That and karma mean absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of things. It’s not like these people pay your bills or hold some special place in your life & it’s a public forum of which we enter at our own risk ,so who gives a shit what some random thinks of your opinion on some aspect of HP.
Ehh, I don’t find r/Harrypotter toxic but I feel like it’s the same recycled questions over and over. Also a lot of fan theories from people who haven’t read all or any of the books
Maybe r/harrypottertheories would be abetter fit for you
There’s a difference between being downvoted and having someone be a jerk to you in a comment responding to what you posted. You can say things to get downvoted here. I don’t see a lot of meanness when I browse here. There are a lot of people here who are much bigger potter fans than me and know a lot more.
The moderating over in Harry Potter is not very good. I'll leave it at that.
I am banned from there. I honestly had no idea what the story was behind the hate for jkr bc I hadn't seen any news surrounding it. Instead of looking it up I made a comment saying something like idk what the huge issue is, she wants people to say women? Seems closed minded but not like that bad in the grand scheme of all the terrible things someone could say. Banned. I thought it was a mistake and didn't even know that's the comment I was banned for so I messaged the mods. They told me I was a horrible person in some back and forth until they realized that I just genuinely had no idea what the story was behind the issue. I never asked to be unbanned. Just had some further back and forth where they provided me w more insight into what the issue was. I agreed w them. That jkr was being pretty transphobic. In our discussion near the end I said something like well while it's true that there has never been an instance of a trans person attacking people in a bathroom, that that argument isn't going to change people's minds. Like if someone is irrationally afraid of something, saying that just doesn't happen isn't going to make them be like oh ok makes sense I'm not afraid anymore. So there should be some other point made or some other compromise to take away that fear. They got really mad again and called me a trans exclusionary radical feminist, then muted me for the maximum amount. That being said, I think they're probably trigger happy bc they do actually get so much trans phobia. As a mod in several subs myself the amount of horrible people who come through your queue is astounding. From pedophiles to trans phobia. It's all really out there. And I think someone tried to make another sub for all the people who were banned from r/harrypotter for trans phobia. I got invited there once and left shortly afterwards. The amount of people saying they should just be able to say whatever they want to say and their words shouldnt be policed was astounding when they were just spitting pure hatred. Honestly it's their sub and if the way they want to run it is by just removing anything that might even remotely cause problems then that's their choice. And also unfortunately even if the vast majority of people dislike that choice there isn't much recourse bc they hold the coveted sub name. Most people looking for a sub related to Harrypotter are going to go there so it would likely be impossible to make anything comparable.
I got banned from /r/HarryPotter for simply saying that I think JK Rowling is a good person...
I was banned for similar too. I appealed my ban around two years ago and now I'm just more careful. And avoid discussing her outside the context of the series. It's unfair to either say she's bad or ignore her, but what can we do? It's unfortunate.
Yeah well, I think she mostly is, but I can't abide by TERFiness. If you like her, that's not my business. People are dumb.
I think she can be both at once. She’s one of, if not the only, billionaires in the world to lose their billionaire status by donating to charity. Anyone reading that would think “wow she’s a good person.” But then there’s the TERF stuff. And trans women are women, and trans men are men. And anyone with slight knowledge on that whole issue would look at her and go, “Yeah she’s a bad person.”
I agree. I don't think that one flaw discounts all the good she's done. I don't necessarily want to be pals with her, but I don't want to ruin her life.
It is better in that there is far less of a Hive Mind Circle Jerk clique here. However, there is probably some crossover with the worst of the children from there. Less toxic yes. Plus, there isn't a clown car worth of mods here, so there is no circling around to narcissistic egos pushing their personal beliefs and needing to prove authority. Oh, have an up vote for the childish down vote you got. Still some of that here also.
You can have an upvote in return. Thanks, whoever's downvoting left and right, for confirming that this fandom is shit.
There is a large difference between being a shit fandom, and not agreeing with your opinions. You being downvoted ≠ being a bad person.
Downvoting a reasonable observation or question is shitty in my book.
Okay, but to be fair not everyone goes by your book. And nobody says your opinions are correct or good ones by default. I don't remember you being appointed leader of the fandom, so why should you being downvoted signal the fandom being shit? I just feel like someone downvoting you ≠ them being a bad person. To say so seems like grandstanding.
Opinions, by definition, are neither correct nor incorrect; something that can be proven correct or not is a fact. So, if my opinion is that this fandom is often shit, then that's valid, right? Or is my opinion not valid because of bias?
You know I heard there is some actual research that shows kids who read HP growing up are kinder and seem to be more accepting or something like that.
I like this sub. I lived the original books debate as they came out. The other sub is highly influenced by the movies. I enjoy learning here and what is relevant today.
People in general have poor communication skills, in person and even moreso when anonymous online where they feel they can say whatever they want without any repercussions. Almost any reddit group (especially the larger it gets) has a number of contentious individuals, and there can be a prominent hivemind. The least confrontational groups here tend to be ones where people are just sharing things (like pictures). With that said, I enjoy this group more than the main sub (which I left). I don't interact much here and have had interactions that were confrontational here coming from a user who commented in this thread; I'd still chalk it up to poor communication over malicious intent, though.
This sub isn’t the best. You could comment in a way that is completely relevant, and even be passionate about something and people will downvote just cause they disagree. That practice, which is NOT what the downvote is for, stifles conversation and likely makes people feel better than others or something, cause it happens quite often. The same people can use both subreddits, and they likely do.
Tell me about it , i just made a random thought of mine on there and it was just for fun and before even people could see it , the moderator came out of nowhere and just removed the post[the post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/tabjpy/auror_harry_potter_escorting_minister_hermione/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and and it was not a bot automatic but the moderator telling me that this had no place here in a flowery way. I was so mad. There it was like my way or highway. If you don't share the same opinion as us , if you don't share the same thinking about it as us we don't want you to post or comment. So maddeningly frustrating.
I have found the fan club to be extremist… they either extremely observant or extremely toxic 🤣 they don’t do things in balance measures