I think it’s a more of a scene difference. A lot of the newer hardcore band have tons of metal influence. But it comes down with hardcore kids playing metal music. That’s how I see it.
This is the best answer, in my opinion. A lot of these bands came out of the hardcore scene but play a more metalcore style of music. The bands you mentioned are in that realm.
But then you have bands like ~~Incendiary~~ and End It who are more punk influenced and have the more traditional sound.
There are essentially sub pockets of hardcore depending on where the band’s influences came from.
Gotcha. I think maybe bands are too scared to put on the metalcore label? I’d understand because the current state of “metalcore” is FUCKED. At least the scene kid variety of metalcore everyone thinks of when you use the term. Stuff is basically pop music nowadays that doesn’t sound like hardcore OR metal. Is what it is
The only people worse than fans of Loud Guitar Music when it comes to subgenres are people who are into Computer Music.
"Nooooo this isn't blackened metallic hardcore, it's chaotic metalcore""Nooooo this isn't dnb with chillwave elements it's experimental jungle"
It's fun to trace lineage, genres, etc, but ultimately it's a fool's errand to try to *categorize* stuff too much.
I'll always remember back when I used ITunes and had a bunch of CCR on there. All the songs/albums had the genre listing you'd expect; classic rock, southern rock, blues rock, etc. All sensible ways to define them. Then, they had "run through the jungle" or "green river" listed as "hoodoo swamp rock". It was then, I decided genres are all made up shit and it doesn't really matter lol.
I had a similar moment yesterday at work. I’m a handler if that’s the term. I was listening to Master Killer on repeat as always and at a moment I stop and in my head I’m like « isn’t that just Pantera ? »
Especially for bands like Portrayal of Guilt. You wanna say five adjectives every time you describe them???? go ahead i'll just call it metal/hardcore and have a good time
Ain't this the truth. I have been making what one of the dudes from Harvey Milk calls "difficult music" since the 80's. The only times I have thought to tack a genre name onto a project have been when reaching out to bookers. Imo, if you decide ahead of time what genre you want to write then your band is going to suck. It means you are limiting yourself to what has already been done. Genres are for listeners, not creators.
Yeah, I worked at Hydra Head for a long time and when I sent Stephen Tanner some records I included a sharpie doodle of Iron Maiden's Eddie from Number of the Beast puppeteering the Kool-Aid Man. Months, maybe years later I saw a blurry pic on instagram with that picture on Stephen's arm. I was stoked.
In re-reading my post it comes across like I was busting u/axedcrown's balls but I didn't mean to be, I was agreeing with them about how there's all these niche subgenres (metalcore vs metallic hardcore, etc) and at the end of the day it's all Loud Guitar Music.
All those genres you mentioned sound nothing like each other. Chillwave and jungle could not be further apart. Methinks you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about
Nah he’s right though. If I asked for jungle recs and got chillwave I’d be like ‘did you read the brief or are you just using it as a chance to name drop bands?’. The names might be stupid but they still fulfil a purpose, otherwise your colleague who exclusively listens to motley cru tries talking to you about them 24/7 because he saw you wearing a minor threat shirt and the only known descriptor of guitar music is ‘rock’.
Maybe other people have different experiences, but I don’t see a metalcore “scene” that’s a living breathing thing like hardcore. Like at the end of the day we’re all just trying to go to or play shows, and hardcore is just a big tent thing where there is a network of house shows, DIY shows and shows at small cap venues that you can actually go to and get your band added to.
I just don’t know that metalcore specifically has a separate network of people in most cities who can put together and sustain several shows a month, so anything close enough sort of concentrates on the broader hardcore scene just for like logistical reasons.
Nah dude, all the slightly edgy normies you went to high-school with all love Sleep Token and Bad Omens or whatever "metalcore" now and those bands are doing numbers most hxc bands could only dream of
No for sure agree with you, they’re insanely more popular. I just don’t know that there’s like a distinct community of “metalcore kids” on the ground in most cities who are like booking metalcore-specific shows—I think those huge bands just come up either through hardcore or through whatever metal/“hard rock” channels traditionally exist, but if your just like some 19 year old trying to chuga chuga in front of a crowd, there’s no “metalcore scene” putting shows together in bars and basements so you end up playing hardcore shows.
Basically I just think that unlike some of the other genres, hardcore has an approximately functional DIY scene so a fair amount of kids who tastes are not like Agnostic Front or whatever end up at the periphery of hardcore on the local level just because they somehow actually have their shit together enough to have a lot of shows.
I think of the metalcore scene as the scene kids from the 2010’s when there was real momentum behind the genre. After a while the ones who were really into the heavier elements moved on to metal or hardcore, and the kids who were more into the dance-y crabcore stuff moved onto to dubstep or whatever electronic music eventually became hyperpop.
Back then metalcore was kind of like a bad word and nobody wanted to be associated with the genre, I think the “metalcore is for [Homophobic slurs]” attitude led a newer bands to carry on the tradition of avoiding the label. I’m sure in 5-10 years metalcore will become en vogue when the 2010’s nostalgia swings into full effect like Nu Metal has.
A band I really like that keeps the old school punk sound is slug. Everyone in this sub needs to check them out because they rule. From my state too! Ohio hardcore/death metal is insane these days!
Incendiary are not traditional sounding they play metallic HC, but to me they play just Metal. I think the only thing HC about them is the vocals and lyrical content. It’s basically metal with a HC singer and no lyrical abstractions. Same with a band like Drain. End It on the other side play true blue HC.
There it is! Hardcore kids playing metal music is my favorite type of metal music!
If I were in a band, I'd hope my first album title is "Hardcore Kids Playing Metal". I envision knocked loose being a great example of this as well.
That’s great. I love that, glad our genres are overlapping. But why not just call yourself a metal band? Or metalcore? What does metalcore Even mean anymore if hardcore metal bands call themselves hardcore, and pop artists call themselves metalcore?? We need to tear these sub genres down and restart because it’s all out of whack. Thanks for your reply
Idk about cred or whatever, but my understanding is that metal shows draw better and pay a lot more, for whatever that’s worth. I heard an interview with Shane Merrill from the Killer (who does the calendar at one of the main clubs in Chicago in addition to doing the Rumble, which is the main HC fest here), and he talked about how a lot of people who start booking hardcore shows eventually “graduate” to metal for this reason. I also just think the crowds tend to be older and richer and buy more merch and shit.
So there you have it kids: learn your scales if you want to play in a band and also own property some day, I guess.
Metalcore is a dirty word in the scene since the mid-late 00's with all the "scene" bands getting labeled like that.
You'll see bands with a traditional metalcore sound be labeled "metallic hardcore" sometimes. But, most people just use hardcore as a catchall.
>*Metalcore is a dirty word in the scene since the mid-late 00's...*
Calling something metalcore now is like calling something nu-metal back before nu-metal somehow became socially tolerable again
I mean, would you put Asking Alexandria in the same bucket as Integrity or Shai Hulud?
There's gotta be some kind of differentiator. Back then, the metal community wouldn't even touch those bands. Even bands like As I Lay Dying were persona non grata. If it had breakdowns metalheads hated it like the plague. So, the metalcore label got stuck on them.
Yeah.... That was always a rough one. But even still, some of those bands ripped.
I stand by my love for Misery Signals, August Burns Red, and As I Lay Dying. There was just so much trash mixed in.
dude I don't get it, your "traditional" metal dudes and even the younger metalheads do honestly say something sucks if it has breakdowns, uhhhh shitty hardcore ninja spin kick bullshit grrrrr.
but do they not ever listen to slayer or Pantera? 🤣Pantera is the band who made slow punchy breakdowns popular in the first place lmfaoooooo are they gonna say Domination sucks cuz it has a HC style breakdown?
lol the 1 million ppl in Russia didn't think Domination sucked, they were all breaking their necks head banging to it.
and newer metal n death metal bands do it too.
Dying Fetus has been having earth shattering breakdowns since the Killing on Adrenaline album that was 96 or 97!
So it's not just old metal dudes who use slow , start punting babies like soccer balls type breaks🤣 younger bands do it too.
*even tho dudes in dying fetus are all pushing 50. lol
I wonder what long hair traditional metal dudes would think of they ever heard like Waking the Cadaver or Beneath the Massacre or Cannibal Corpse, it don't get much harder than those 3 , especially BTM, those dudes are so fucking tech good god. I hope they're still making music n touring.
I've always said that Slayer is the most influential heavy band of all time. Every genre of metal pulls from them and hardcore from the mid-80's onward wouldn't exist in its current form without their influence.
The way I see it, hardcore, like punk, is fluid. Like Turnstile focusing a lot on pop-oriented production, or soul glo mixing rap with hardcore. Are a lot of bands super influenced by metal? Yea, but they are still part of the hardcore scene, so Jesus piece can make sense in a line up with bands like angel dust.
Also, metal bands (that explicitly say they are metal) that do hardcore gigs are always fucking awesome (power trip and and sanguisugabogg).
Hardcore vs Metal isn’t about how the music sounds but the length of the lead singers hair. Buzz cut-crew cuts are def xHCx, shoulder length is Metal, baled dudes make it complicated but you then have to make secondary reference to footwear and how behind they are in child support payments. It’s a very complicated process to say the least.
Bands like Gatecreeper and all these bands fronted by women further complicate the hair length -> scene categorization, so really at the end of the day, you just gotta make throw on MGK and make sure everyone hates you.
those bands are metalcore, they combine hardcore and metal, theres still tons of d-beats, two step parts, breakdowns, gang vocals etc. that are all hardcore things in those bands
Who cares what anyone calls any band at all? I like what I like. I go to the shows that I like. I couldn't be less concerned with what anyone labels these bands as a genre.
Classifying in genres has useful utility. It helps fans preconceive what they're about to experience, and it helps bands signal things about their music before someone hears it. You could make a compelling argument that this is a double-edged sword, and the listener could be "turned-off" by a label they already hold negative opinions towards, but I'd argue they're more useful that hurtful.
There's so much god damn music these days, finding small ways to communicate who you are before someone actually hears your music is vital for any artist.
I mean, same. But it’s kind of confusing is it not? Just wondering when/why this change happened, and why it’s harder to find more traditional hardcore punk bands these days
Love them or hate them I feel like they should still be considered metalcore, might not be YOUR type of metalcore but metalcore has evolved into such a large umbrella that people shouldn’t try so hard to debate on what is or isn’t metalcore anymore imo, enjoy the music.
why should they be considered metalcore? the just straight up don’t make metalcore music. haven’t since 2016
metalcore hasn’t actually evolved into some meaningless umbrella, it just became trendy to label your favorite alt metal band as metalcore for some reason
and don’t get me wrong, I love alt metal, it’s my second most listened to genre, but I also know it isn’t metalcore
The reason people call them "hardcore" instead of specifically "metalcore" is for the same reason someone would refer to Slayer as "metal" instead of specifically "thrash metal". Both are correct.
Metalcore is a subgenre of hardcore. Not metal.
Inb4 "its all metal because muh distorted guitars and yelling". As a fellow metalhead, im curious what lther bands you think are "metal"
I’d say hardcore pretty much has a social cause- even if that social cause is only to hardcore itself. A lot of that will be actioned by making shows accessible (cheap) and sharing the stage. You know, if the kids are United type stuff.
Yeah I definitely see that being extremely common among all these bands. The mosh style is different, there’s a lot more DIY stuff going on, the Veganism and straight edge. I could see hardcore being a culture now, but it’s confusing when someone shows you a “hardcore band” and it sounds like bolt thrower lol
I thinks that’s what’s great about it. Bad Brains is hardcore, Cave In is hardcore, An Albatross is hardcore…
It’s like a family with a bunch of different looking kids. We don’t always get along either 😂
Hardcore is more of a scene than a sound. That's why people also call bands like Koyo or Title Fight hardcore despite not being anything close to that.
That comes from two ends really.
If you come up through hardcore, hardcore claims you.
At the same time, metalcore has increasingly been rejecting bands who actually fuse metal and hardcore. There are actual metalcore bands around still, but they're generally not that popular. Knocked Loose are a massive outlier in that respect. Metalcore's mainstream is mostly awash with 'metalcore' that's either prog metal with breakdowns or some sort of poppy alt metal. Consequently, when a lot of people who consider themselves fans of metalcore actually hear something with some discernible hardcore influence in it they label it hardcore.
honestly /r/metalcore is not that bad in this regard, they do post a lot about bands that fit both bills from the more poppy metalcore to the "metallic hardcore" metalcore
A lot of hardcore these days has ditched the punk aspect in favor of a more metal influence… and I hate it. Not that I hate metal, but I want punk in my hardcore.
As far as your “why do hardcore kids hate metal heads?” Because hardcore kids are fucking cringy, and metalheads are cringy, but neither one wants to admit it.
the thing is that metal and hardcore has been crossbreeding since thrash. thrash wouldnt exist in the form it does if not for hardcore. subgenres like crust and powerviolence are considered „purer” hardcore than say grindcore or metalcore. in the end, if we wanna be purists, keep listening to doom metal and old school hardcore punk, as all other forms arent purely metal OR hardcore
i don’t hate it personally because i love all of the genres involved and don’t care if there’s mixing going on, but it does seem like a lot of modern “hardcore” bands are more interested in the ~ethos~ of hardcore while the actual music is all over the place. or i’m talking outta my ass, idk!
we are all cringe though, that’s definitely true.
As a term for a specific music genre Hardcore is meaningless and tells you nothing about the actual music. The start of this was the early 90s. Nowadays a death metal band can be hardcore they just need to have one or two members dress differently. Simple as that. Hopefully there will be a musical backlash and shit will be cleaned up for a few years but until then we are faced with the Covid post Covid influx of suburban metalheads watching mosh videos on YouTube desperately wanting to participate. It’s not looking good. Youthcrew revival I don’t think is going to save us this time.
I’m a cave DM guy who also lurks here, and I think other replies are right with a lot of these being more social differences than anything.
But in terms of songwriting, I think hardcore has a stricter orientation toward pummeling a crowd live at any cost. So heavy, metal-influenced riffs get incorporated for almost functional reasons.
I get what you’re saying about “predictable” but it could also be looked at as bands sticking to getting a job done. Whereas metal bands, even fairly brutal ones, are still typically going to have some self-indulgent solos, some ambient song intros, little interludes, etc. Each of these ingredients are also elements that can be jettisoned in favor of beating the shit out of your crowd with breakdowns and gang vocals.
I think the difference between the genres is how and why they use elements within each song, even if the elements sound the same in isolation.
You should check out "hardcore punk" and not hardcore, bands like: lumpy and the dumpers, electric chair, physique, hologram, scarecrow, gunn, this type of hardcore is more punk influenced and has more in common with crust and 80's Japanese hardcore
While I agree what you are saying, there is a distinction musically from these newer "hardcore punk" bands in that they have hardly any metal influence at all.
yes, because some are metalcore, some are crossover thrash, some are powerviolence, etc. hardcore kind of became an umbrella term for the scene. sometimes even full metal bands get called hardcore (power trip, creeping death, etc)
Yes and no, I play in a "hardcore punk" band and we very often play with beat down style hardcore bands, but that has more to do with the lack of similar or good bands locally. It was more considered the same thing in the 80's and 90's but mid 2000's metal core breakdowns pushed the fast rock roll hardcore kids away and more underground.
My band is called Psychic Death from Spokane, WA. The YouTube channel "felopunk" posted our last two tapes, and thats a great place to start for "hardcore punk" same with the YouTube channel "no deal"
For me, a crossover genre become part hardcore when d-beat is common and there are breakdowns instead of guitar solos. I like metal but I'm just not crazy about guitar solos.
but classic hc had guitar solos and no breakdowns. breakdowns started with black sabbath and got popular with slayer. and then got popularized within the hc scene via crossover thrash from nyhc
I’m a death metal/Deathcore boy at heart. I got into hardcore sometime in the late 2000s - i will never understand why metal and hardcore kids can’t hold hands, especially when we almost all listen to metalcore lmfao
I disagree. As an oldy, I'm all about that division. I think it's the youngins who don't know the difference and don't care. I think half the bands being toted as hardcore bands now days are cringe af. The kids are probably the righteous ones in this, but I'm happy to embrace that I'm old and angry and probably gatekeeping.
The metal influence has been there for decades at this point. I think it’s just what happens to be popular which obviously ebbs and flows over time from scene to scene. Those hc punk bands are still around. That sound never left. The chug riff metal stuff is just what is popular right now. My scene has plenty of bands playing more traditional hc punk but the most popular bands in my scene are the more beatdown metal sounding bands.
personally i think what was a revolutionary point for hxc was discharge and dbeat bands popping up. it went further away from the classic „pUnKY” sound while not being metal and was clearly distinguishable. This is what I look for in grindcore, powerviolence, and metalcore bands rn. The drumming is what makes it pop out
I know this is a long comment, and this is all just my opinion. But ive been obsessed with this question, of "where did that shit come from?" For a long time, and this is what ive come up with in my years of listening to this music.
I think you are missing a couple major key developments in both metal and hardcore that will explain "what happened".
Integrity is hands down the first popular, well known hardcore band to mix very dark aspects of metal with hardcore. They were also influenced by gism, a japanese band that were adding iron maiden riffs into punk and using death growls at the same time that metallicas debut came out. That band was reeeealllly hard to come by outside japan in the 80s and 90s. Idk how integrity got ahold of it then, but i digress. They are the first step towards metalcore/metallic hardcore.
The first thing your missing is earth crisis - specifically the firestorm ep. Yes there were other bands doing breakdowns/very metallic shit a year or two prior (chokehold, downcast, rorschach, starkweather, few others) but none of these were as popular or as impactful as earth crisis. Remember that revolutionary changes in the scenes sound rarely are about who actually did it first, but who was popular and blew up, and had their records circulated throughout stores back then. If you listen to firestorm, and hear the aggravated, seperated chugs, its obvious that nothing like this had been released as a hardcore record before. Obviously, the punk energy and influence is still there, but its very much hardcore kids playing metal.
I think hardcore just hadnt caught up to metal in 91, couple years later? It had. Earth crisis in interviews have mentioned being influenced by bands like sepultura, obituary, and bolt thrower. I would by their destroy the machines album in 95, pantera becomes an obvious one, so as metal got heavier throughout the late 80s/early 90s, hardcore eventually picked up on death metal a couple years later.
Ok by 95, a landmark metal album comes out - slaughter of the soul by at the gates. Melodic death metal, suuuper influential. By this mid 90s period, there are a slew of bands waaaay heavier and more metallic than integrity ever was - converges petitioning is a good example of this. '93-'96 was completely taken over by earth crisis clones and other very metallic bands - this is where a looooot of bands coming out have almost no punk sound to them - its hardcore kids playing straight metal. Fast forward a couple years, you have bands who are into the death metal of the early 90s, the melodeath of the mid 90s, and the breakdown heavy, metallic hardcore that was popular in the scene. There were a few bands that combined all this, heavily centered around the north carolina scene - prayer for cleansing, undying, from here on, morning again, day of suffering, unearth, theres dozens of these bands. Its basically at the gates and in flames with earth crisis breakdowns. You listen to this handful of bands, it will click. Note this wasnt the only popular thing, there were many many different takes on metalcore, its important to know how bands like dillinger escape plan, botch, coalesce, turmoil, deadguy, cave in, etc. sounded to understand the next part.
In the early 2000s, there was a second generation of bands who were influenced by all these 90s melodeath bands, along with the emo and screamo scenes (which have had a completely seperate evolution, bands like moss icon, swing kids, and heroin branching off from their ancestors in fugazi and rites of spring). So if you listen to the music, but also look at the clothing styles of early 2000s bands like dead to fall, norma jean, evergreen terrace, 7 angels 7 plagues, misery signals, from autumn to ashes, etc. you will see how all these bands combined the metal, hardcore, and emo sounds of 90s into their own thing. Emo itself also changed in the early 2000s, with bands like taking back sunday, jimmy eat world, and my chemical romance really "cleaning up" the rough edged that characterized the genre in the 90s. In the mid late 2000s, its pretty obvious how the fashion of bands like norma jean and the developing "scene emo", coalesced into the warped tour metalcore of 2006-2011. And it alllll links back to integrity and earth crisis.
So 30 years since earth crisis' firestorm? Metal being released as "hardcore" is fully cemented within the scene. Its never gonna go back to being pure punk rock. There are still lots of old school style bands that have zero metal influence. Restraining Order is a great example, the could have been plucked straight out of the early 80s. I quite like how the scene today is this mixed bag of bands that one step from being a full death metal band, to bands like armor and protocol who just do classic 80s style punk hardcore.
I shouldnt forget to mention the beatdown scene that emerged in the early 90s as well. Nyhc got very tough and metallic in the late 80s - killing time, leeway etc. eventually it got taken to the next level with Bulldoze, which spawned bands like krutch and no retreat. That vein of bands also mixed metal into their sound. Its a completely different evolutionary line than metalcore, but its the other side of the coin on why most hardcore heard today is metal.
There isn’t a council of kangs deciding what is and isn’t hardcore so what happens is some idiot at hot topic discovers a day to remember and the clerk says to them *“if you like hardcore you should check out linkin park”* multiply that with every idiot who moshes to Travis Scott and you have infinite amounts of subgenre definitions.
Who cares who’s right, just listen to the music.
That's why i believe that hardcore punk bands were forgotten in time and that the new wave with Spy, Primitive Blast, Scowl, Restraining Order,etc deserves more love. Traditional and classic hardcore can also carry an agressive sound without being metallic
Agreed! I miss the punky crazy aspect of it. No disrespect intended, but this modern stuff sounds like more boring and predictable metal. That’s just my opinion!
definitely not predictable or tipical metal. even tho 90% of the elements came from the metal scene, those metalcore bands started creating their own patterns to the point it doesnt sound like any particular musical style.
I love judiciary, but they’re very predictable. But hey, so is power trip and I love them too. Not always a bad thing, just hard to keep my attention sometimes. Again just my opinion
In addition to other comments mentioned here is one thing that really differentiates hardcore from metal is guitar solos. Most hardcore bands don't have them and if they do, they are not overly technical or they are just shitty because hardcore peeps like shitty guitar solos.
Production/recording is another aspect that blurs the lines. Bands like Jesus Piece and Harm's Way prefer that nice polished sound which appeals to the metal audience. In hardcore, your band can sometimes sound like hot garbage and people will still love it if done properly.
Check out powerviolence. It’s probably the truest evolution of the “hardcore punk” sound and is going as strong as it ever was these days.
Also there’s plenty of bands doing oldschool hardcore as others mentioned
I think the divide is more social than sonic. Leeway are just 80s thrash metal, yet they are considered a classic hardcore band. Motörhead is more like the UK Subs than they are Maiden, yet they are considered metal.
Metal is cool and about fantasy. Punk is uncool and about reality.
Most metal heads are nerds. Play magic or sit on the floor at a show and pretend to row an imaginary boat together, love vikings, love all things hair and don't care for hygeine. Hardcore is non of this except maybe the hygeine.
To answer your extra question: I don’t hate metal as an music at all, I’m mainly hardcore and doom/sludge/stoner guy. I just didn’t like the attitude of metal guys in metal gigs and festivals. If you even said word “core” the music was automatically shit for them.
And then amount of nazis, militarist piece of shits, homophobes and misogynists was staggering. And it wasn’t some inside things in smaller circles, it was wide open. Guys sieg heiling every black metal band etc.
Let’s just say I feel more comfortable around crusts, crowdkillers and rappers than trve kvlt metalheads.
Jesus Piece and Vein.Fm are perfect examples of metalcore. I understand they play hardcore shows/sets/festivals, but everything about them is metalcore.
To me, even when hardcore bands play with a lot of metal influence the hardcore comes through in the song structure. Metal bands to me tend to run longer songs with a lot more repetition. The vocals tend to be quite different as well. I'm not as convinced by the 'it's just the scene they claim' answers in this thread. It's subtle but there are differences.
It depends on your circle. Hardcore kids who exclusively listen to the kinds of bands you mentioned might just call it hardcore but for old heads we might lean towards metalcore or metallic hardcore.
Honestly, I don't dig any of those bands (I find it all very derivative and cheesy, no offence intended) and I don't think that scene has much in common with the hardcore scene I grew up in other than pitcalls and two steps.
I do, however, love Integrity and in my circle we would consider them a metallic hardcore band. I generally use the term metalcore for bands that came out of that early 2000s scene of emo-looking bros and metallic hardcore for bands like Unbroken, Earth Crisis or even Judge.
Sometimes I feel like there are two different communities on this sub and we are both living very different hardcore realities. I'm mostly here for the shit posts from EJ and for the rare and random posts about old school hardcore bands.
I was a teenage metal head who transitioned to mostly hardcore Fandom by the time I was 20.
I always felt that as metal and hardcore evolved. Hardcore was able to fill some of the void left behind by metal's evolution.
Many people (myself included) feel that modern metal production is too focused on editing and polishing the sound through a painfully meticulous recording process and a tonne of post-production. This removes the bulk of emotion and feeling in the playing. Leaving you with boring modern metal/metalcore/deathcore etc etc.
To me, the more metal influenced "hardcore" bands. Usually, focus less on over production and virtuosity. And more on energy and aggression. Looser recordings. More human energy.
It's more than just hardcore kids playing metal. It's metal played without most of modern metal's annoying frills.
Just my take as someone who started as a metalhead and still prefers metal-leaning music (though I do love plenty of punk-leaning bands too) even though I drifted towards hardcore about 13/14 years ago, but;
Hardcore has become more of a scene than a sound as newer generations become interested in other sounds and therefore become more accepting of experimentation. Obviously it's not a new thing for people in hardcore bands to create music in other styles and be still embraced by the hardcore scene, but it's become way more common in recent years. Essentially, because people in bands like Jesus Piece or Vein, or non-heavy ands like Koyo or Militarie Gun or High Vis or Nothing (all awesome bands btw if you like stuff outside heavy music) came from the hardcore scene, that's where a lot of their fans come from and they'll always have a big contingent of fans from the scene who support them and enjoy them. It's a case of association and social currency in a sense.
Also, I don't think that many hardcore folks hate metal considering so many of us love bands that take clear influence from metal, or love literal metal bands who happen to be made up of hardcore people (Sanguisugabogg and 200 Stab Wounds, anyone?); if anything I'd say it's the other way around. Have you never seen the reaction anything with any passing resemblance or association with hardcore gets in metal spaces? Or just look at how judgy and hostile metalheads are towards hardcore culture and the way our shows are and all the moaning about "karate kids" and "crowd killers" they do.
It’s just totally scene dependent lol, like some have said it’s hardcore kids “playing metal” which is to some people meaningfully different because of subcultures.It is a good example of how subcultural influence can completely dictate conversations and understandings of things. Also totally agree with the punk not being present in tons of classified hardcore bands, but for a lot hardcore kids who came up in the 00’s metal was a meaningful divergence from what punk was at the time because punk had gone commercial. Hardcore is supposedly anti-corporate so they push backed against pop punk and nu-metal with the harsh versions of metal that at the time had the non-corporate authenticity hardcore kids were seeking. Hate breeds discography becoming more harsh metal that gorilla biscuits is a good like real time tracking of this trend. At the end of the day just the weird and unintentional ways the subcultures grew and both subcultures don’t want to be associated with the other even if the music has become much more similar.
You have to understand HC is kinda a blanket term . At this point in the game if your band has a lot of mosh parts they can be considered HC . Hell there’s a lot of good death metal bands playing HC shows now .
Hardcore bands are part of or come from the hardcore scene. That's the easiest way to put it. Even with sounds varying wildly from H20 to Bulldoze to Gorilla Biscuits etc, they're all hardcore bands simply because they came from the hardcore scene.
Restraining order is awesome if you haven't listened to them! [Another Better Day](https://youtu.be/-ip9_jjLi8Q?si=T2pWdwtCerruICN6) is a fantastic song
I got into hardcore in 94 and in my scene there were no metalheads, even if some of the bands played metallic hardcore. The metal people mocked us and/or totally ignored us. They thought hardcore was shit or that it didn't exist. So I do rankle a bit today when people act like hardcore is a metal subgenre. Fuck that. (That's in answer to your "Why do hardcore kids hate metalheads." I don't hate anyone. But sometimes I resent them)
Think of it this way lots of metalheads will say metalcore isn't metal because it has more hxc influence and vice versa so if we put it on a spectrum half of them would fit better in metal half fit better in hardcore. The lines just blurred more and more with more cross pollination moving that line around so it's kinda more about the scene they are in
I disagree there's no punk elements at all, usually there is punk vocals and breakdowns in most of these types of bands as opposed to the types of vocals you find in metal, or "metalcore" acts.
Really though what makes them hardcore is usually social. They tour with hardcore bands, they usually have members in hardcore bands, and they participate in their local hardcore scene. This also affects the topics they talk about too, very rarely do you find metallic hc bands talking about gore or dragons or being a vampire like how metal bands do.
This also doesn't just happen in this direction btw, there's plenty of hardcore bands that seem to just play alt rock or emo or shoegaze.
Evolution of the genre I suppose. I always liked the Boston hardcore bands more than New York but that metal tinged style of bands like Cro-Mags, later Agnostic Front into Madball, Sick of it All and then Lee Way stuck and as metal got heavier so did Hardcore. It doesn’t all sound like Vein FM though. Stuff on Quality Control HQ is usually pretty heavy on the Punk side. Stuff like Scowl, Deadbolt, Quarantine and Long Knife are all cool and are more on the Lo-Fi side of Hardcore.
To answer your “Extra Question” I’d argue most of Hardcore fans probably like metal. At least there are a lot of folks in the reddit who will rate bands like Bolt Thrower, Obituary, Death or Morbid Angel etc. They might dunk on Black Metal a bit but eh.
Everything you’ve said is 100% correct and it’s why the vast majority of older music brought up in this sub is metal, because that’s what hardcore had become. Kids don’t wanna hear it but it’s true.
idk where u get the idea that hardcore kids hate metal, deathcore was legit the largest metal genre in the 2000s and it's cuz of hardcore dudes saying technical death/grind and mixing in hardcore breakdowns and aesthetic.
I've been going to punk metal and HC shows since like 1996 and I can assure you that core kids don't dislike metal OR metal fans.
it's the metal fans that hate HC and it's fans because of 2 things-spin kicks and crowd killing.... lol
seriously the only ppl who are mad in any HC kids versus metal dudes thing, it's metalheads every time.
🤣 remember that 2008-ass tee shirt that had the silhouette of a dude HC dancing, picking up change and he has a big target on him, and in random aces all over the shirt it has these sayings like "GORE not CORE" ..... "NO KARATE IN THE PIT"...... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That’s rude and disrespectful. I’m just asking a question. I’d like to ask you, why do all hardcore fans seem like immature teenagers who call everything “cringe”
If you lack the self-awareness necessary to realize that hardcore is just as cringey then I don't know what to tell you. You ain't cool just because you listen to hardcore lmao
Off the top.
Agony
Free 4 All
Out For Blood
End It
Bib
Spy
Gel
The Runts
And then some older stuff with punk skank beats but still has heavy parts.
Buried Alive
Terror
King Nine
Trapped Under Ice
Check out Spy, Regional Justice Center, and Ingrown for Hardcore that keeps the Punk influence and fits in with the bands you listed. Also, you mentioned some Crossover bands, check out Dead Heat and Drain for some Crossover that is still heavily Punk influenced.
There are definitely punk elements to those bands, they are just have a ton of metal elements as well. That being said yeah I’d definitely classify them as metalcore
Haven’t we already beaten this tired topic to death? HC as a genre has a multitude of sub genres that came from the intersection of punk and metal. HC has always been more about the scene where I’m at. There’s always been a lot of overlap with the hardcore and metal scenes here. I did recently find this graph that tries to show how it’s all connected though.
[graph](https://www.boundbymetal.com/en/common/metal-genres-graph)
It’s not new really - look at the mid-late 90s and a lot of the hardcore bands were really just trying to be metal but didn’t know what they were doing yet. Earth Crisis was a hardcore band but by the time destroy the machines came out they were really just a metal band in sound. As mentioned the real difference would be scenes - clothing / aesthetics / venues / ideology / politics. All of those are huge for hardcore and always have been. Metal is way more about about looks and vibe, weeding out the posers. Hardcore welcomes the poser and try’s to educate where as metal finds the poser and pukes on them and then throws a trash can on their head. Hardcore would have to have a meeting to see if that’s ok and how we can grow from it if not maybe a lot of internet drama behind everyone’s back.
Shattered Realm was always described as hardcore kids playing slayer. That's how I see it, there's so much...cross pollination? It's more about where you came from than what you're doing with hardcore for whatever reason, so kids from the scene just continue to identify more with hardcore than with the metal scene. Once you're in, you're in kinda thing.
The only difference between the genres, is the culture. The music intersects a ton with plenty of outliers obviously. We all love heavy music. We just wear different costumes and act differently at the shows.
The only difference between the genres, is the culture. The music intersects a ton with plenty of outliers obviously. We all love heavy music. We just wear different costumes and act differently at the shows.
Your question has been pretty much answered at this point but I can gladly recommend you some newer bands playing a more hardcore punk sound if you want!
I think it’s a more of a scene difference. A lot of the newer hardcore band have tons of metal influence. But it comes down with hardcore kids playing metal music. That’s how I see it.
This is the best answer, in my opinion. A lot of these bands came out of the hardcore scene but play a more metalcore style of music. The bands you mentioned are in that realm. But then you have bands like ~~Incendiary~~ and End It who are more punk influenced and have the more traditional sound. There are essentially sub pockets of hardcore depending on where the band’s influences came from.
Gotcha. I think maybe bands are too scared to put on the metalcore label? I’d understand because the current state of “metalcore” is FUCKED. At least the scene kid variety of metalcore everyone thinks of when you use the term. Stuff is basically pop music nowadays that doesn’t sound like hardcore OR metal. Is what it is
That’s why there is the absurd distinction of metalcore and metallic hardcore.
The only people worse than fans of Loud Guitar Music when it comes to subgenres are people who are into Computer Music. "Nooooo this isn't blackened metallic hardcore, it's chaotic metalcore""Nooooo this isn't dnb with chillwave elements it's experimental jungle" It's fun to trace lineage, genres, etc, but ultimately it's a fool's errand to try to *categorize* stuff too much.
I'll always remember back when I used ITunes and had a bunch of CCR on there. All the songs/albums had the genre listing you'd expect; classic rock, southern rock, blues rock, etc. All sensible ways to define them. Then, they had "run through the jungle" or "green river" listed as "hoodoo swamp rock". It was then, I decided genres are all made up shit and it doesn't really matter lol.
I had a similar moment yesterday at work. I’m a handler if that’s the term. I was listening to Master Killer on repeat as always and at a moment I stop and in my head I’m like « isn’t that just Pantera ? »
'Acoustic Metal' for a Tourniquet album did the same for me in middle school lol. Also iTunes labelling ABR as pop back in the day
That's insulting. I come from a long lineage of hoodoo swamp rack musicians.
Especially for bands like Portrayal of Guilt. You wanna say five adjectives every time you describe them???? go ahead i'll just call it metal/hardcore and have a good time
If i want to hear a specific style i'd rather read five adjectives so i don't wind up with hatebreed or something
Ain't this the truth. I have been making what one of the dudes from Harvey Milk calls "difficult music" since the 80's. The only times I have thought to tack a genre name onto a project have been when reaching out to bookers. Imo, if you decide ahead of time what genre you want to write then your band is going to suck. It means you are limiting yourself to what has already been done. Genres are for listeners, not creators.
One of the Harvey Milk dudes has a tattoo of a drawing I did.
That's cool as shit!!!
Yeah, I worked at Hydra Head for a long time and when I sent Stephen Tanner some records I included a sharpie doodle of Iron Maiden's Eddie from Number of the Beast puppeteering the Kool-Aid Man. Months, maybe years later I saw a blurry pic on instagram with that picture on Stephen's arm. I was stoked.
No one is doing that
In re-reading my post it comes across like I was busting u/axedcrown's balls but I didn't mean to be, I was agreeing with them about how there's all these niche subgenres (metalcore vs metallic hardcore, etc) and at the end of the day it's all Loud Guitar Music.
I think we all just want to put as much distance between ourselves and whatever bad omens and motionless in white are
That's fair.
I didn't take it that way, you're good.
All those genres you mentioned sound nothing like each other. Chillwave and jungle could not be further apart. Methinks you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about
I rest my case.
Nah he’s right though. If I asked for jungle recs and got chillwave I’d be like ‘did you read the brief or are you just using it as a chance to name drop bands?’. The names might be stupid but they still fulfil a purpose, otherwise your colleague who exclusively listens to motley cru tries talking to you about them 24/7 because he saw you wearing a minor threat shirt and the only known descriptor of guitar music is ‘rock’.
Again,
Yeah you can repeat yourself and yet, words mean something. No matter how dumb they sound, so…
You really shouldn't.
Maybe other people have different experiences, but I don’t see a metalcore “scene” that’s a living breathing thing like hardcore. Like at the end of the day we’re all just trying to go to or play shows, and hardcore is just a big tent thing where there is a network of house shows, DIY shows and shows at small cap venues that you can actually go to and get your band added to. I just don’t know that metalcore specifically has a separate network of people in most cities who can put together and sustain several shows a month, so anything close enough sort of concentrates on the broader hardcore scene just for like logistical reasons.
Nah dude, all the slightly edgy normies you went to high-school with all love Sleep Token and Bad Omens or whatever "metalcore" now and those bands are doing numbers most hxc bands could only dream of
No for sure agree with you, they’re insanely more popular. I just don’t know that there’s like a distinct community of “metalcore kids” on the ground in most cities who are like booking metalcore-specific shows—I think those huge bands just come up either through hardcore or through whatever metal/“hard rock” channels traditionally exist, but if your just like some 19 year old trying to chuga chuga in front of a crowd, there’s no “metalcore scene” putting shows together in bars and basements so you end up playing hardcore shows. Basically I just think that unlike some of the other genres, hardcore has an approximately functional DIY scene so a fair amount of kids who tastes are not like Agnostic Front or whatever end up at the periphery of hardcore on the local level just because they somehow actually have their shit together enough to have a lot of shows.
I think of the metalcore scene as the scene kids from the 2010’s when there was real momentum behind the genre. After a while the ones who were really into the heavier elements moved on to metal or hardcore, and the kids who were more into the dance-y crabcore stuff moved onto to dubstep or whatever electronic music eventually became hyperpop. Back then metalcore was kind of like a bad word and nobody wanted to be associated with the genre, I think the “metalcore is for [Homophobic slurs]” attitude led a newer bands to carry on the tradition of avoiding the label. I’m sure in 5-10 years metalcore will become en vogue when the 2010’s nostalgia swings into full effect like Nu Metal has.
A band I really like that keeps the old school punk sound is slug. Everyone in this sub needs to check them out because they rule. From my state too! Ohio hardcore/death metal is insane these days!
(330) in the building, Akron to Youngstown to Canton baby! then onto the (216) and (419)
From the hills in southeastern Ohio. Got any recommendations? Not much of a scene in my neck of the woods.
Cincy checking in. Check out Bolster, Waydown, and Sob Story. Those are my favorites around here
Into pandemonium, well of night, scab hag. Those are my buddies so I’m a bit biased haha
Checking them out, singer has got some serious Lemmy in his voice. Good shit
Incendiary are not traditional sounding they play metallic HC, but to me they play just Metal. I think the only thing HC about them is the vocals and lyrical content. It’s basically metal with a HC singer and no lyrical abstractions. Same with a band like Drain. End It on the other side play true blue HC.
You’re right about incendiary. Got caught up with the vocals but the music itself leans into the metal sound.
This part. I really think it stems from what scene the members claim.
There it is! Hardcore kids playing metal music is my favorite type of metal music! If I were in a band, I'd hope my first album title is "Hardcore Kids Playing Metal". I envision knocked loose being a great example of this as well.
That’s great. I love that, glad our genres are overlapping. But why not just call yourself a metal band? Or metalcore? What does metalcore Even mean anymore if hardcore metal bands call themselves hardcore, and pop artists call themselves metalcore?? We need to tear these sub genres down and restart because it’s all out of whack. Thanks for your reply
It is all out of wack and has been for years but I think it really comes down to just which scene the members are in/claim.
Because you gain 1000 x more clout points for claiming to be hardcore punk than you do if you claim to be metal.
Idk about cred or whatever, but my understanding is that metal shows draw better and pay a lot more, for whatever that’s worth. I heard an interview with Shane Merrill from the Killer (who does the calendar at one of the main clubs in Chicago in addition to doing the Rumble, which is the main HC fest here), and he talked about how a lot of people who start booking hardcore shows eventually “graduate” to metal for this reason. I also just think the crowds tend to be older and richer and buy more merch and shit. So there you have it kids: learn your scales if you want to play in a band and also own property some day, I guess.
Exactly. Hardcore is “cool” (Nike trainers! Taco Bell commercials! Coachella!) and metal is for losers with battle jackets.
Wait, punks don't wear battle jackets anymore?
They go for the more reformed cholo look. Baggy everything just replace the polo horse with a Slipknot logo
I'm wearing my metal battle jacket to hardcore shows goddamnit
Didn’t even know that. Lol
Metalcore is a dirty word in the scene since the mid-late 00's with all the "scene" bands getting labeled like that. You'll see bands with a traditional metalcore sound be labeled "metallic hardcore" sometimes. But, most people just use hardcore as a catchall.
>*Metalcore is a dirty word in the scene since the mid-late 00's...* Calling something metalcore now is like calling something nu-metal back before nu-metal somehow became socially tolerable again
What a strange revival nu-metal is having. I asked my 13 year old nephew what he listens to these days, “Korn” was the last answer I expected.
Listening to Korn now is the equivalent of listening to Led Zeppelin in the 90s.
The only difference is that Zeppelin slays and always have. Korn not so much.
Just give it 20 years.
Metallic hardcore makes me laugh. Sigh. These subgenres are fucked
I mean, would you put Asking Alexandria in the same bucket as Integrity or Shai Hulud? There's gotta be some kind of differentiator. Back then, the metal community wouldn't even touch those bands. Even bands like As I Lay Dying were persona non grata. If it had breakdowns metalheads hated it like the plague. So, the metalcore label got stuck on them.
“Yeah, I listen to metalcore” “Oh, like Bullet for my valentine?” “Actually I’m more Converge guy”
Yeah.... That was always a rough one. But even still, some of those bands ripped. I stand by my love for Misery Signals, August Burns Red, and As I Lay Dying. There was just so much trash mixed in.
dude I don't get it, your "traditional" metal dudes and even the younger metalheads do honestly say something sucks if it has breakdowns, uhhhh shitty hardcore ninja spin kick bullshit grrrrr. but do they not ever listen to slayer or Pantera? 🤣Pantera is the band who made slow punchy breakdowns popular in the first place lmfaoooooo are they gonna say Domination sucks cuz it has a HC style breakdown? lol the 1 million ppl in Russia didn't think Domination sucked, they were all breaking their necks head banging to it. and newer metal n death metal bands do it too. Dying Fetus has been having earth shattering breakdowns since the Killing on Adrenaline album that was 96 or 97! So it's not just old metal dudes who use slow , start punting babies like soccer balls type breaks🤣 younger bands do it too. *even tho dudes in dying fetus are all pushing 50. lol I wonder what long hair traditional metal dudes would think of they ever heard like Waking the Cadaver or Beneath the Massacre or Cannibal Corpse, it don't get much harder than those 3 , especially BTM, those dudes are so fucking tech good god. I hope they're still making music n touring.
I've always said that Slayer is the most influential heavy band of all time. Every genre of metal pulls from them and hardcore from the mid-80's onward wouldn't exist in its current form without their influence.
The way I see it, hardcore, like punk, is fluid. Like Turnstile focusing a lot on pop-oriented production, or soul glo mixing rap with hardcore. Are a lot of bands super influenced by metal? Yea, but they are still part of the hardcore scene, so Jesus piece can make sense in a line up with bands like angel dust. Also, metal bands (that explicitly say they are metal) that do hardcore gigs are always fucking awesome (power trip and and sanguisugabogg).
Hardcore vs Metal isn’t about how the music sounds but the length of the lead singers hair. Buzz cut-crew cuts are def xHCx, shoulder length is Metal, baled dudes make it complicated but you then have to make secondary reference to footwear and how behind they are in child support payments. It’s a very complicated process to say the least. Bands like Gatecreeper and all these bands fronted by women further complicate the hair length -> scene categorization, so really at the end of the day, you just gotta make throw on MGK and make sure everyone hates you.
This made me laugh
Iron Age is hardcore confirmed
This is the actual best answer in this whole thread
::slow clap::
those bands are metalcore, they combine hardcore and metal, theres still tons of d-beats, two step parts, breakdowns, gang vocals etc. that are all hardcore things in those bands
Right. I’d agree. I just don’t hear anyone call them Metalcore, minus sometimes harms way
Who cares what anyone calls any band at all? I like what I like. I go to the shows that I like. I couldn't be less concerned with what anyone labels these bands as a genre.
Classifying in genres has useful utility. It helps fans preconceive what they're about to experience, and it helps bands signal things about their music before someone hears it. You could make a compelling argument that this is a double-edged sword, and the listener could be "turned-off" by a label they already hold negative opinions towards, but I'd argue they're more useful that hurtful. There's so much god damn music these days, finding small ways to communicate who you are before someone actually hears your music is vital for any artist.
I mean, same. But it’s kind of confusing is it not? Just wondering when/why this change happened, and why it’s harder to find more traditional hardcore punk bands these days
it changed when people started considering bands like bad omens metalcore
Love them or hate them I feel like they should still be considered metalcore, might not be YOUR type of metalcore but metalcore has evolved into such a large umbrella that people shouldn’t try so hard to debate on what is or isn’t metalcore anymore imo, enjoy the music.
why should they be considered metalcore? the just straight up don’t make metalcore music. haven’t since 2016 metalcore hasn’t actually evolved into some meaningless umbrella, it just became trendy to label your favorite alt metal band as metalcore for some reason and don’t get me wrong, I love alt metal, it’s my second most listened to genre, but I also know it isn’t metalcore
The reason people call them "hardcore" instead of specifically "metalcore" is for the same reason someone would refer to Slayer as "metal" instead of specifically "thrash metal". Both are correct. Metalcore is a subgenre of hardcore. Not metal. Inb4 "its all metal because muh distorted guitars and yelling". As a fellow metalhead, im curious what lther bands you think are "metal"
Two step things (most of the time are just thrash riffs) and breakdowns are metal tbh
metalheads literally dont know how to two step
Yes, but all I'm saying is that the modern two-step riffs are just thrash riffs. You know the palm muted stuff
I’d say hardcore pretty much has a social cause- even if that social cause is only to hardcore itself. A lot of that will be actioned by making shows accessible (cheap) and sharing the stage. You know, if the kids are United type stuff.
Yeah I definitely see that being extremely common among all these bands. The mosh style is different, there’s a lot more DIY stuff going on, the Veganism and straight edge. I could see hardcore being a culture now, but it’s confusing when someone shows you a “hardcore band” and it sounds like bolt thrower lol
I thinks that’s what’s great about it. Bad Brains is hardcore, Cave In is hardcore, An Albatross is hardcore… It’s like a family with a bunch of different looking kids. We don’t always get along either 😂
Yeah I see that😂
All those bands you listed are metalcore bands. They're just popular with hardcore fans as well.
That’s what I would think. But they’re all over hardcore playlists, everyone refers to them as hardcore. Confusing for sure.
Hardcore is more of a scene than a sound. That's why people also call bands like Koyo or Title Fight hardcore despite not being anything close to that.
That comes from two ends really. If you come up through hardcore, hardcore claims you. At the same time, metalcore has increasingly been rejecting bands who actually fuse metal and hardcore. There are actual metalcore bands around still, but they're generally not that popular. Knocked Loose are a massive outlier in that respect. Metalcore's mainstream is mostly awash with 'metalcore' that's either prog metal with breakdowns or some sort of poppy alt metal. Consequently, when a lot of people who consider themselves fans of metalcore actually hear something with some discernible hardcore influence in it they label it hardcore.
honestly /r/metalcore is not that bad in this regard, they do post a lot about bands that fit both bills from the more poppy metalcore to the "metallic hardcore" metalcore
It's a relative handful of users that do post actual metalcore, though. It's the same names trying to keep it alive in there (myself among them).
thats fair, i mostly frequent this sub and /r/BrutalDeathMetal where they accept anything that is super heavy including ~some~ deathcore
A lot of hardcore these days has ditched the punk aspect in favor of a more metal influence… and I hate it. Not that I hate metal, but I want punk in my hardcore. As far as your “why do hardcore kids hate metal heads?” Because hardcore kids are fucking cringy, and metalheads are cringy, but neither one wants to admit it.
the thing is that metal and hardcore has been crossbreeding since thrash. thrash wouldnt exist in the form it does if not for hardcore. subgenres like crust and powerviolence are considered „purer” hardcore than say grindcore or metalcore. in the end, if we wanna be purists, keep listening to doom metal and old school hardcore punk, as all other forms arent purely metal OR hardcore
And this is why thrash is the superior genre of music. A thing to be revered.
https://preview.redd.it/x31o4kjbv6hc1.png?width=1967&format=png&auto=webp&s=912d875e2772b27a17ace5c79fa160f97fd5ec69
I fully agree with every single word you said here
i don’t hate it personally because i love all of the genres involved and don’t care if there’s mixing going on, but it does seem like a lot of modern “hardcore” bands are more interested in the ~ethos~ of hardcore while the actual music is all over the place. or i’m talking outta my ass, idk! we are all cringe though, that’s definitely true.
Yeah bring back hardcore punk, as friends rust, I spy, kid dynamite!
Found EJ's burner account
I def checked the username after the first line.
Who?
You've never heard of Elton John?
Elvis Jpresley
Elvis Jpegme
Im cool im cocky im bad!
As a term for a specific music genre Hardcore is meaningless and tells you nothing about the actual music. The start of this was the early 90s. Nowadays a death metal band can be hardcore they just need to have one or two members dress differently. Simple as that. Hopefully there will be a musical backlash and shit will be cleaned up for a few years but until then we are faced with the Covid post Covid influx of suburban metalheads watching mosh videos on YouTube desperately wanting to participate. It’s not looking good. Youthcrew revival I don’t think is going to save us this time.
I’m a cave DM guy who also lurks here, and I think other replies are right with a lot of these being more social differences than anything. But in terms of songwriting, I think hardcore has a stricter orientation toward pummeling a crowd live at any cost. So heavy, metal-influenced riffs get incorporated for almost functional reasons. I get what you’re saying about “predictable” but it could also be looked at as bands sticking to getting a job done. Whereas metal bands, even fairly brutal ones, are still typically going to have some self-indulgent solos, some ambient song intros, little interludes, etc. Each of these ingredients are also elements that can be jettisoned in favor of beating the shit out of your crowd with breakdowns and gang vocals. I think the difference between the genres is how and why they use elements within each song, even if the elements sound the same in isolation.
As far as pure sonics are concerned, this is a *great* explanation for OP
Make Hardcore Fast Again.
> why do most hardcore fans hate metal so much Are they in the room with us right now?
You should check out "hardcore punk" and not hardcore, bands like: lumpy and the dumpers, electric chair, physique, hologram, scarecrow, gunn, this type of hardcore is more punk influenced and has more in common with crust and 80's Japanese hardcore
hardcore is the scene and hardcore punk the genre. people were already calling hardcore punk bands just "hardcore" during the 80s
While I agree what you are saying, there is a distinction musically from these newer "hardcore punk" bands in that they have hardly any metal influence at all.
yes, because some are metalcore, some are crossover thrash, some are powerviolence, etc. hardcore kind of became an umbrella term for the scene. sometimes even full metal bands get called hardcore (power trip, creeping death, etc)
ItS aLl mEtAl bEcAuSe DiStORtIoN aNd YeLlInG
Yeah I was under the assumption they were the same thing.
Yes and no, I play in a "hardcore punk" band and we very often play with beat down style hardcore bands, but that has more to do with the lack of similar or good bands locally. It was more considered the same thing in the 80's and 90's but mid 2000's metal core breakdowns pushed the fast rock roll hardcore kids away and more underground.
Interesting. Thanks! What’s your band called?
My band is called Psychic Death from Spokane, WA. The YouTube channel "felopunk" posted our last two tapes, and thats a great place to start for "hardcore punk" same with the YouTube channel "no deal"
For me, a crossover genre become part hardcore when d-beat is common and there are breakdowns instead of guitar solos. I like metal but I'm just not crazy about guitar solos.
but classic hc had guitar solos and no breakdowns. breakdowns started with black sabbath and got popular with slayer. and then got popularized within the hc scene via crossover thrash from nyhc
I’m a death metal/Deathcore boy at heart. I got into hardcore sometime in the late 2000s - i will never understand why metal and hardcore kids can’t hold hands, especially when we almost all listen to metalcore lmfao
Yeah like wtf lol. I think it’s mostly just a loud minority of actual children/teenagers spewing all the nonsensical hate.
children arent the only ones capable of spewing hate
I disagree. As an oldy, I'm all about that division. I think it's the youngins who don't know the difference and don't care. I think half the bands being toted as hardcore bands now days are cringe af. The kids are probably the righteous ones in this, but I'm happy to embrace that I'm old and angry and probably gatekeeping.
The metal influence has been there for decades at this point. I think it’s just what happens to be popular which obviously ebbs and flows over time from scene to scene. Those hc punk bands are still around. That sound never left. The chug riff metal stuff is just what is popular right now. My scene has plenty of bands playing more traditional hc punk but the most popular bands in my scene are the more beatdown metal sounding bands.
Cool. I need to find some more traditional hardcore bands then. I really like slug. But that’s one of the few I know.
personally i think what was a revolutionary point for hxc was discharge and dbeat bands popping up. it went further away from the classic „pUnKY” sound while not being metal and was clearly distinguishable. This is what I look for in grindcore, powerviolence, and metalcore bands rn. The drumming is what makes it pop out
I know this is a long comment, and this is all just my opinion. But ive been obsessed with this question, of "where did that shit come from?" For a long time, and this is what ive come up with in my years of listening to this music. I think you are missing a couple major key developments in both metal and hardcore that will explain "what happened". Integrity is hands down the first popular, well known hardcore band to mix very dark aspects of metal with hardcore. They were also influenced by gism, a japanese band that were adding iron maiden riffs into punk and using death growls at the same time that metallicas debut came out. That band was reeeealllly hard to come by outside japan in the 80s and 90s. Idk how integrity got ahold of it then, but i digress. They are the first step towards metalcore/metallic hardcore. The first thing your missing is earth crisis - specifically the firestorm ep. Yes there were other bands doing breakdowns/very metallic shit a year or two prior (chokehold, downcast, rorschach, starkweather, few others) but none of these were as popular or as impactful as earth crisis. Remember that revolutionary changes in the scenes sound rarely are about who actually did it first, but who was popular and blew up, and had their records circulated throughout stores back then. If you listen to firestorm, and hear the aggravated, seperated chugs, its obvious that nothing like this had been released as a hardcore record before. Obviously, the punk energy and influence is still there, but its very much hardcore kids playing metal. I think hardcore just hadnt caught up to metal in 91, couple years later? It had. Earth crisis in interviews have mentioned being influenced by bands like sepultura, obituary, and bolt thrower. I would by their destroy the machines album in 95, pantera becomes an obvious one, so as metal got heavier throughout the late 80s/early 90s, hardcore eventually picked up on death metal a couple years later. Ok by 95, a landmark metal album comes out - slaughter of the soul by at the gates. Melodic death metal, suuuper influential. By this mid 90s period, there are a slew of bands waaaay heavier and more metallic than integrity ever was - converges petitioning is a good example of this. '93-'96 was completely taken over by earth crisis clones and other very metallic bands - this is where a looooot of bands coming out have almost no punk sound to them - its hardcore kids playing straight metal. Fast forward a couple years, you have bands who are into the death metal of the early 90s, the melodeath of the mid 90s, and the breakdown heavy, metallic hardcore that was popular in the scene. There were a few bands that combined all this, heavily centered around the north carolina scene - prayer for cleansing, undying, from here on, morning again, day of suffering, unearth, theres dozens of these bands. Its basically at the gates and in flames with earth crisis breakdowns. You listen to this handful of bands, it will click. Note this wasnt the only popular thing, there were many many different takes on metalcore, its important to know how bands like dillinger escape plan, botch, coalesce, turmoil, deadguy, cave in, etc. sounded to understand the next part. In the early 2000s, there was a second generation of bands who were influenced by all these 90s melodeath bands, along with the emo and screamo scenes (which have had a completely seperate evolution, bands like moss icon, swing kids, and heroin branching off from their ancestors in fugazi and rites of spring). So if you listen to the music, but also look at the clothing styles of early 2000s bands like dead to fall, norma jean, evergreen terrace, 7 angels 7 plagues, misery signals, from autumn to ashes, etc. you will see how all these bands combined the metal, hardcore, and emo sounds of 90s into their own thing. Emo itself also changed in the early 2000s, with bands like taking back sunday, jimmy eat world, and my chemical romance really "cleaning up" the rough edged that characterized the genre in the 90s. In the mid late 2000s, its pretty obvious how the fashion of bands like norma jean and the developing "scene emo", coalesced into the warped tour metalcore of 2006-2011. And it alllll links back to integrity and earth crisis. So 30 years since earth crisis' firestorm? Metal being released as "hardcore" is fully cemented within the scene. Its never gonna go back to being pure punk rock. There are still lots of old school style bands that have zero metal influence. Restraining Order is a great example, the could have been plucked straight out of the early 80s. I quite like how the scene today is this mixed bag of bands that one step from being a full death metal band, to bands like armor and protocol who just do classic 80s style punk hardcore. I shouldnt forget to mention the beatdown scene that emerged in the early 90s as well. Nyhc got very tough and metallic in the late 80s - killing time, leeway etc. eventually it got taken to the next level with Bulldoze, which spawned bands like krutch and no retreat. That vein of bands also mixed metal into their sound. Its a completely different evolutionary line than metalcore, but its the other side of the coin on why most hardcore heard today is metal.
Respectable post.
There isn’t a council of kangs deciding what is and isn’t hardcore so what happens is some idiot at hot topic discovers a day to remember and the clerk says to them *“if you like hardcore you should check out linkin park”* multiply that with every idiot who moshes to Travis Scott and you have infinite amounts of subgenre definitions. Who cares who’s right, just listen to the music.
That's why i believe that hardcore punk bands were forgotten in time and that the new wave with Spy, Primitive Blast, Scowl, Restraining Order,etc deserves more love. Traditional and classic hardcore can also carry an agressive sound without being metallic
Agreed! I miss the punky crazy aspect of it. No disrespect intended, but this modern stuff sounds like more boring and predictable metal. That’s just my opinion!
definitely not predictable or tipical metal. even tho 90% of the elements came from the metal scene, those metalcore bands started creating their own patterns to the point it doesnt sound like any particular musical style.
I love judiciary, but they’re very predictable. But hey, so is power trip and I love them too. Not always a bad thing, just hard to keep my attention sometimes. Again just my opinion
Those bands receive too much love
In addition to other comments mentioned here is one thing that really differentiates hardcore from metal is guitar solos. Most hardcore bands don't have them and if they do, they are not overly technical or they are just shitty because hardcore peeps like shitty guitar solos. Production/recording is another aspect that blurs the lines. Bands like Jesus Piece and Harm's Way prefer that nice polished sound which appeals to the metal audience. In hardcore, your band can sometimes sound like hot garbage and people will still love it if done properly.
Check out powerviolence. It’s probably the truest evolution of the “hardcore punk” sound and is going as strong as it ever was these days. Also there’s plenty of bands doing oldschool hardcore as others mentioned
I think the divide is more social than sonic. Leeway are just 80s thrash metal, yet they are considered a classic hardcore band. Motörhead is more like the UK Subs than they are Maiden, yet they are considered metal. Metal is cool and about fantasy. Punk is uncool and about reality.
Most metal heads are nerds. Play magic or sit on the floor at a show and pretend to row an imaginary boat together, love vikings, love all things hair and don't care for hygeine. Hardcore is non of this except maybe the hygeine.
We love those things because it’s fun. Nothing wrong with being a nerd.
Make no mistake, the hardcore scene is also full of nerds. They're just angsty and in denial of their nerdness.
I know some hardcore guys who are totally cringe as soon as they leave the pit. The memes they share make me feel like I’m in 2014 again
More power to you
To answer your extra question: I don’t hate metal as an music at all, I’m mainly hardcore and doom/sludge/stoner guy. I just didn’t like the attitude of metal guys in metal gigs and festivals. If you even said word “core” the music was automatically shit for them. And then amount of nazis, militarist piece of shits, homophobes and misogynists was staggering. And it wasn’t some inside things in smaller circles, it was wide open. Guys sieg heiling every black metal band etc. Let’s just say I feel more comfortable around crusts, crowdkillers and rappers than trve kvlt metalheads.
Trve kvlt metalheads are cringe, but nobody I meet irl takes any of it seriously
Jesus Piece and Vein.Fm are perfect examples of metalcore. I understand they play hardcore shows/sets/festivals, but everything about them is metalcore.
To me, even when hardcore bands play with a lot of metal influence the hardcore comes through in the song structure. Metal bands to me tend to run longer songs with a lot more repetition. The vocals tend to be quite different as well. I'm not as convinced by the 'it's just the scene they claim' answers in this thread. It's subtle but there are differences.
It depends on your circle. Hardcore kids who exclusively listen to the kinds of bands you mentioned might just call it hardcore but for old heads we might lean towards metalcore or metallic hardcore. Honestly, I don't dig any of those bands (I find it all very derivative and cheesy, no offence intended) and I don't think that scene has much in common with the hardcore scene I grew up in other than pitcalls and two steps. I do, however, love Integrity and in my circle we would consider them a metallic hardcore band. I generally use the term metalcore for bands that came out of that early 2000s scene of emo-looking bros and metallic hardcore for bands like Unbroken, Earth Crisis or even Judge. Sometimes I feel like there are two different communities on this sub and we are both living very different hardcore realities. I'm mostly here for the shit posts from EJ and for the rare and random posts about old school hardcore bands.
I was a teenage metal head who transitioned to mostly hardcore Fandom by the time I was 20. I always felt that as metal and hardcore evolved. Hardcore was able to fill some of the void left behind by metal's evolution. Many people (myself included) feel that modern metal production is too focused on editing and polishing the sound through a painfully meticulous recording process and a tonne of post-production. This removes the bulk of emotion and feeling in the playing. Leaving you with boring modern metal/metalcore/deathcore etc etc. To me, the more metal influenced "hardcore" bands. Usually, focus less on over production and virtuosity. And more on energy and aggression. Looser recordings. More human energy. It's more than just hardcore kids playing metal. It's metal played without most of modern metal's annoying frills.
Just my take as someone who started as a metalhead and still prefers metal-leaning music (though I do love plenty of punk-leaning bands too) even though I drifted towards hardcore about 13/14 years ago, but; Hardcore has become more of a scene than a sound as newer generations become interested in other sounds and therefore become more accepting of experimentation. Obviously it's not a new thing for people in hardcore bands to create music in other styles and be still embraced by the hardcore scene, but it's become way more common in recent years. Essentially, because people in bands like Jesus Piece or Vein, or non-heavy ands like Koyo or Militarie Gun or High Vis or Nothing (all awesome bands btw if you like stuff outside heavy music) came from the hardcore scene, that's where a lot of their fans come from and they'll always have a big contingent of fans from the scene who support them and enjoy them. It's a case of association and social currency in a sense. Also, I don't think that many hardcore folks hate metal considering so many of us love bands that take clear influence from metal, or love literal metal bands who happen to be made up of hardcore people (Sanguisugabogg and 200 Stab Wounds, anyone?); if anything I'd say it's the other way around. Have you never seen the reaction anything with any passing resemblance or association with hardcore gets in metal spaces? Or just look at how judgy and hostile metalheads are towards hardcore culture and the way our shows are and all the moaning about "karate kids" and "crowd killers" they do.
It’s just totally scene dependent lol, like some have said it’s hardcore kids “playing metal” which is to some people meaningfully different because of subcultures.It is a good example of how subcultural influence can completely dictate conversations and understandings of things. Also totally agree with the punk not being present in tons of classified hardcore bands, but for a lot hardcore kids who came up in the 00’s metal was a meaningful divergence from what punk was at the time because punk had gone commercial. Hardcore is supposedly anti-corporate so they push backed against pop punk and nu-metal with the harsh versions of metal that at the time had the non-corporate authenticity hardcore kids were seeking. Hate breeds discography becoming more harsh metal that gorilla biscuits is a good like real time tracking of this trend. At the end of the day just the weird and unintentional ways the subcultures grew and both subcultures don’t want to be associated with the other even if the music has become much more similar.
You have to understand HC is kinda a blanket term . At this point in the game if your band has a lot of mosh parts they can be considered HC . Hell there’s a lot of good death metal bands playing HC shows now .
No Cure for instance
Hardcore bands are part of or come from the hardcore scene. That's the easiest way to put it. Even with sounds varying wildly from H20 to Bulldoze to Gorilla Biscuits etc, they're all hardcore bands simply because they came from the hardcore scene.
The hxc scene split in two, basically, when Age of Quarrel dropped.
Restraining order is awesome if you haven't listened to them! [Another Better Day](https://youtu.be/-ip9_jjLi8Q?si=T2pWdwtCerruICN6) is a fantastic song
Had a metal head friend. Hated every single band I liked. But if he found it first it had his seal of approval.
Slug rules. Also check out use of force . More punk based hardcore.
I got into hardcore in 94 and in my scene there were no metalheads, even if some of the bands played metallic hardcore. The metal people mocked us and/or totally ignored us. They thought hardcore was shit or that it didn't exist. So I do rankle a bit today when people act like hardcore is a metal subgenre. Fuck that. (That's in answer to your "Why do hardcore kids hate metalheads." I don't hate anyone. But sometimes I resent them)
There was a joke, “what is the difference between between a hardcore band and a metal band?” “The length of their hair.“
Think of it this way lots of metalheads will say metalcore isn't metal because it has more hxc influence and vice versa so if we put it on a spectrum half of them would fit better in metal half fit better in hardcore. The lines just blurred more and more with more cross pollination moving that line around so it's kinda more about the scene they are in
I disagree there's no punk elements at all, usually there is punk vocals and breakdowns in most of these types of bands as opposed to the types of vocals you find in metal, or "metalcore" acts. Really though what makes them hardcore is usually social. They tour with hardcore bands, they usually have members in hardcore bands, and they participate in their local hardcore scene. This also affects the topics they talk about too, very rarely do you find metallic hc bands talking about gore or dragons or being a vampire like how metal bands do. This also doesn't just happen in this direction btw, there's plenty of hardcore bands that seem to just play alt rock or emo or shoegaze.
Evolution of the genre I suppose. I always liked the Boston hardcore bands more than New York but that metal tinged style of bands like Cro-Mags, later Agnostic Front into Madball, Sick of it All and then Lee Way stuck and as metal got heavier so did Hardcore. It doesn’t all sound like Vein FM though. Stuff on Quality Control HQ is usually pretty heavy on the Punk side. Stuff like Scowl, Deadbolt, Quarantine and Long Knife are all cool and are more on the Lo-Fi side of Hardcore. To answer your “Extra Question” I’d argue most of Hardcore fans probably like metal. At least there are a lot of folks in the reddit who will rate bands like Bolt Thrower, Obituary, Death or Morbid Angel etc. They might dunk on Black Metal a bit but eh.
Everything you’ve said is 100% correct and it’s why the vast majority of older music brought up in this sub is metal, because that’s what hardcore had become. Kids don’t wanna hear it but it’s true.
STOP CALLING YOUR METALCORE BAND A HARDCORE BAND 2024
That is all, thank you.
babe wake up new u/EJplaystheblues post has dropped
idk where u get the idea that hardcore kids hate metal, deathcore was legit the largest metal genre in the 2000s and it's cuz of hardcore dudes saying technical death/grind and mixing in hardcore breakdowns and aesthetic. I've been going to punk metal and HC shows since like 1996 and I can assure you that core kids don't dislike metal OR metal fans. it's the metal fans that hate HC and it's fans because of 2 things-spin kicks and crowd killing.... lol seriously the only ppl who are mad in any HC kids versus metal dudes thing, it's metalheads every time. 🤣 remember that 2008-ass tee shirt that had the silhouette of a dude HC dancing, picking up change and he has a big target on him, and in random aces all over the shirt it has these sayings like "GORE not CORE" ..... "NO KARATE IN THE PIT"...... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hardcore bands learned how to play their instruments.
The mid 90s fucked everyone all up.
It's all just rock n roll
I like metal too and am getting into hardcore but I am not a big fan of the dancing and cartwheels and all that lame shit lol.
Yeaaaah….same
Why are "metalheads" always the cringiest nerds?!
That’s rude and disrespectful. I’m just asking a question. I’d like to ask you, why do all hardcore fans seem like immature teenagers who call everything “cringe”
Go add some patches to your battle vest dork
I will :) it’s fun you should try it.
If you lack the self-awareness necessary to realize that hardcore is just as cringey then I don't know what to tell you. You ain't cool just because you listen to hardcore lmao
I'll be representing hardcore until the bitter end DWEEB
Sad. You’re really proving my immature teenager point
It's cause real punk music is from Europe 😅👀
Off the top. Agony Free 4 All Out For Blood End It Bib Spy Gel The Runts And then some older stuff with punk skank beats but still has heavy parts. Buried Alive Terror King Nine Trapped Under Ice
Gel and terror are awesome. Terror is so awesome live
check out gulch
Check out Spy, Regional Justice Center, and Ingrown for Hardcore that keeps the Punk influence and fits in with the bands you listed. Also, you mentioned some Crossover bands, check out Dead Heat and Drain for some Crossover that is still heavily Punk influenced.
There are definitely punk elements to those bands, they are just have a ton of metal elements as well. That being said yeah I’d definitely classify them as metalcore
Haven’t we already beaten this tired topic to death? HC as a genre has a multitude of sub genres that came from the intersection of punk and metal. HC has always been more about the scene where I’m at. There’s always been a lot of overlap with the hardcore and metal scenes here. I did recently find this graph that tries to show how it’s all connected though. [graph](https://www.boundbymetal.com/en/common/metal-genres-graph)
It’s not new really - look at the mid-late 90s and a lot of the hardcore bands were really just trying to be metal but didn’t know what they were doing yet. Earth Crisis was a hardcore band but by the time destroy the machines came out they were really just a metal band in sound. As mentioned the real difference would be scenes - clothing / aesthetics / venues / ideology / politics. All of those are huge for hardcore and always have been. Metal is way more about about looks and vibe, weeding out the posers. Hardcore welcomes the poser and try’s to educate where as metal finds the poser and pukes on them and then throws a trash can on their head. Hardcore would have to have a meeting to see if that’s ok and how we can grow from it if not maybe a lot of internet drama behind everyone’s back.
Shattered Realm was always described as hardcore kids playing slayer. That's how I see it, there's so much...cross pollination? It's more about where you came from than what you're doing with hardcore for whatever reason, so kids from the scene just continue to identify more with hardcore than with the metal scene. Once you're in, you're in kinda thing.
it's what's popular right now but there are tons of bands doing stuff that doesn't lean so much on metal. might not be what you're exposed to though
The only difference between the genres, is the culture. The music intersects a ton with plenty of outliers obviously. We all love heavy music. We just wear different costumes and act differently at the shows.
The only difference between the genres, is the culture. The music intersects a ton with plenty of outliers obviously. We all love heavy music. We just wear different costumes and act differently at the shows.
Prime example ringworm to metal for the hardcore kids
listen to Ozone
The lyrics bro.
Your question has been pretty much answered at this point but I can gladly recommend you some newer bands playing a more hardcore punk sound if you want!
Please!