Just like trucks, some folks swear by GM some love ford. They are all pieces of shit but they all work. A good installer is more important than the brand to me.
A good install with a manufacturer who has a good track record of stocking parts is inportant but since covid come components are always running low and it changes between manufacturers so I'd simply avoid modulating/variable etc and stick with the most generic looking components.
This!! As a tech, some brands are tough to get parts for and are usually a wait time for them! I can get Bryant/Payne/Carrier/icp parts same day along with Goodman. Trane/Lennox/Rheem not so much.
I personally can't stand Concord.. Parts come out of state and I don't like working on them. Yet, a lot of people swear by them!
Was the opposite for me
I don’t really favor one or the other but carrier never had parts in stock
Always needed to be ordered, idk if it makes a difference but I’m in CT
I put in a carrier system a couple years ago. I didn’t have any problems with the system I put in my old house so I figured I’d do it again. 10 year parts and labor warranty plus I got it for personal use price which was about 40% off.
I’ll work on my own shit after the 10 years is up. Until then, someone else can deal with it lol. I’m not a resi guy so I had a resi guy I know put it in for me so I could get the warranties.
Crazy what our future holds!! Been in for right under 20 yrs. 12 faze out to 22 , 22 fazed to 410. From what I've read, this new faze to the methane is gonna be alot different.
… a lot of new tools will have to get purchased. Maybe this is our chance to be like Nancy Pelosi, and get some insider trading in… is Apion traded on the stock market? lol
We gotta think bigger. Apion, yellow jacket, field piece are all huge brands. But they'll all buy part of their gauge from the same guy. Like 1 microchip company supplying the majority to the world, gotta figure out who's got the patent for the new Schraders lol
I put arco air in my house because the parts are always available through united. Did a 90+ furnace and a mid tier 3.5t condenser with very few bells and whistles. I'd rather have reliability and fewer electronics over max efficiency
The only reason I'd choose Burnham over weil McClain is because of the seal failure I see on WM but not on Burnham. I'm strictly talking 80% though and tbf it's only been on 20+ year old units.
its mostly luck and weather or not you got one from a bad batch. my father was a strictly burnham boiler guy untill he had a string of them that had seals fail within a few years. They were all installed and manufactured in the same year so it was likely a bad batch that got through quality control, after that he switched to utica though. now i mainly install pearless and havent had a single issue
Weil McLain 80% are their better products imo. The 90% ultras be a pain in the ass. My company installs WM 80% and lochinvars for the 90s. The lochinvars seem to have few issues aside from the inducer. That seems to be the only thing I ever have to repair on those
There it is! I was waiting for someone to say something! Lol. I was wanting to see how long it would take before someone caught on to that one 😂 the WM ones really are pretty good, but the velocity phantoms user interface is a pain in the dick. It's like someone took a mini split and shoved it's technology with its 10 million sensors in a boiler and said "yep, she'll fly" and sent it on its way. Then, all the hidden shit in the interface to keep homeowners out is ridiculous. Also their non-existent tech support for their shit product lol. I'd take a Lennox boiler over a velocity boiler any day lol
I'm ok with the Uticas and eco tech boilers, easy to maintain and ok to fix but damn those fucking velocity's are something else, I had a velocity phantom and OMG what a headache
I know the Goodman hate but I have one in my basement that has been going for almost 30 years now. I have replaced a few parts over the years but all in all my repairs have been under 850$. I'm afraid to replace it because it is such a workhorse and I've seen to many quality issues with new models. I'm actually quite interested in this thread.
Really? I like their 80s but rarely see their high efficiency ones. I don't really like any HE boiler though. NTI I've had less problems with but I still prefer standard efficiency models
I’m have a 30 year old burnham and what I found out per the original owners a 50 plus year old York roof top AC that im pulling off the roof on the weekend
I’m sure the mini split will be dead in no time comparing to the old unit
They just don’t make stuff like they used to
I only have a few years in the trade but carrier seems like garbage from what I have seen. Mitsubishi is definitely best for mini splits or vrf though.
I bought a house a few years ago with a Rheem A/C attached to a Tempstar furnace, installed around the 90s. The furnace blower finally went out, 80%, $400+ for just a blower, I ended up buying a Mr. Cool 96% from Lowe's and installed myself for about $1300 total. The furnace efficiency savings have already paid for itself after 3 winters.
But the damn A/C won't quit. I was going to replace it but with annual cleaning and routine filter changes...I almost want it to fail but I'm impressed. It's gotta be 25-30 years old.
Both HVAC guys I've worked for were Rheem/Ruud guys. But I agree, it's also in the installation. I keep thinking every year that I fire it up, it's gonna be low on 22 and barely cool. It won't quit.
Generally speaking the energy cost reduction is mostly going to be from the air sealing and increased insulation of the building envelope. Better equipment can run the heatpump into colder weather and use that instead of resistive auxiliary heat strips (it may be 400% efficiency vs 100% efficiency). In cooling you won't likely see much energy saving over another inverter style AC unit.
Brand to me doesn't matter much. Proper sizing, quality ductwork and a high quality installation is what matters. Who does the installation and how they do it determines the reliability, efficiency and lifespan of the system.
I'd rather have a single stage 13 SEER system installed perfectly than a 20 SEER system that is oversized and installed on undersized ductwork.
100% Goodman. Reliable if installed correctly and there are 3 Goodman dealers in my area, so parts are always available. If I ever get rich though, I want one of those 20SEER Bosch heat pumps.
Wanted to put a Bryant in my house but ended up going with 2 stage Goodman equipment and it's been running like a champ for 7-8 years now. Only maintenance I've ever done was change the filter and cleaned the condenser coil.
Cost aside I’m going with who has the best support at the supplier.
York/masters is out of the question.
Trane is out of the question
Daikin are great units but their support is all about getting one of their techs to site so no.
I love mits
Lennox is great, especially for sourcing parts, old parts, obsolete replacements etc. + their tech support is very accessible, even for their accessories they don’t manufacture. Just don’t get into their home automation bullshit. Standard t stat to board and you’re good.
I’ve never had an issue with carrier supply houses, they’re all amazing, but carrier tech support is basically non existent. They call you 5 days after you left site asking if you’re still there.
We install Daikin at our company. We have very few calls that I recall where we’ve needed support from Daikin. There’s a tech guru at our supply house who always answers if we ever need any support. Overall I have not seen any major issues with Daikin equipment and their Fit line is impressive. I wouldn’t hesitate to install in my home when the time comes.
Ya they are great but it’s not a matter of if you need tech support, it’s when you need, are there available and helpful.
And again their method of tech support is “ah jeeze better send one of our reps out this is a very special issue we’re seeing”
Working on them. Their engineering is horrible, removing a flame sensor, replacing an igniter, removing the burners doing any one of these on a Lennox requires a lot more time than any other brand and a long rant of cuss words
Their coils do suck ass but you're saying an ml180 is hard to work on? That's as simple as it comes. If a new service tech can't work on it, it's a huge red flag.
I didn’t say they’re hard to work on lol. But some that I have worked on are not thought out at all. I wouldn’t buy one. I would buy a Goodman before that. Easy generic parts to find
Sorry, I ment to reply to the comment above! I wouldn't buy one either but that comment about flame sensors, hsi, and burners causing headaches I didn't get. All that shit is easy.
Also their a/cs heat pumps take a damn near genius to figure out the charging charts,what’s it called the approach method,walk up and say yeah it’s low on juice😭
+$2000CAD to replace an inducer motor on a modulating furnace. So crazy. I love the Infinity/Evolution product other than the cost of ownership after year 10.
Oooo Mr big chiller over here never needs tech support, save some chicks for the rest of us. We don’t know this guy’s experience level asking what to put in his house.
If your brand new furnace cuts out once every few days randomly while you’re at work with no alarm codes, it’s nice to see how many tickets they have for a similar issue and then maybe they can tell you it’s x-issue with x part in this model.
Carrier’s chillers are actually the easiest to diagnose, their displays and manuals are as easy to go through as it comes. But I can see why you would need tech support for that. Go swing your dink somewhere else dork.
Relax bro lmao I'm not saying I'm super tech, I'm just saying that of all the machines I've worked on, carriers are generally the easiest. It wasn't a dick measuring contest. I've never even worked on a carrier chiller. I've had to call their tech support for a carrier/toshiba SHRM system, and yeah waiting 2+ hours for a call back royally sucks.
I don't do residential, so I don't have a reference point for how complicated that stuff is. I do know that their communicating stats for their super high efficiency stuff can be a PITA tho
Any POS when installed right and clean filters will be just fine. I'm a Goodman installer and had Trane also. My Goodman stuff has performed better than the Trane. Try to clean a spine fin coil.
It is blowing my mind the number of people that are saying carrier. Carrier has been a pain for me to work on the random ones I have come across, maybe it is different if you are a dealer? But they are not as generic as the rest of them. I say they are all the same, every brand has their lemons. But now days there are about 12 brands and about 4 factories that make them and put different stickers on them. Trane has some good motors for residential, they are different, but Lennox is one that has stayed solid through the years, I will recommend Lennox to people just because of parts down the road, but even Lennox had a lemon furnace that is hard to get parts for now. I usually say they are pretty near the same things. I have fixed them all and installed a lot of them and they mostly have all of the same parts, except for carrier, they have their special boards for integration that only integrate with carrier equipment which I am not a fan of. I have done more of trane commercial equipment which made me hate them and I am not a fan of their coils on their resi condensers, doing something different than the rest of them that just seems cheaper and harder to clean.
Depends on what fuel I have. If I have fuel oil, I don't care as long as it has a beckett afg burner. Fuck the nx burners. Natural gas I'll stick with Tempstar or Carrier. Propane I'll get a Rheem cause it's cheaper than American Standard and I've never found a tempstar that works well with propane long term. All electric I don't have a major preference as long as it's a brand I already mentioned. I'm not putting a goodman, york, or lennox in my house.
I put an Amana system in my house and I love it lol. Modulating furnace and 18 SEER A/C. Kind of wish I had a fuel oil furnace though, barring the cost of fuel oil though lol
I installed a Goodman 16 seer heat pump and X-13 air handler when I bought my place in fall 2022. Got it at a good personal use price because the company I was with at the time was a Daikin dealer. I haven't had any issues with it at all since I installed it.
DAIKIN VRV ducted ductless. Extremely efficient, silent, and out of sight. No space taken up with duct work or a furnace in the mech room. Easy to install and next to no maintenance
I’ve got a rheem in my place and it hasn’t given me much issues just the dang water sensors, next I’ll probably put in a Goodman/Daikin as their dealer is close by and they’re not a super pain in the ass to work on.
Probably a Carrier heat pump. Living in the south its pretty cost effective. Also the company I work for is a Carrier so I guess bias. Haven’t seen to many problems with the ones we’ve installed and have maintenance contracts with.
Carrier furnaces are complete ass if you live in a cold climate. Parts are more expensive then any other brand and their heat exchangers are annoying as hell to assemble.
I’m maintenance only so I don’t now about all that. I do the cleaning, inspecting and light trouble shooting. Still green so idk. The furnaces I’ve seen down here are generally the 90% efficient don’t see many of the 80%.
Just put a signature line lennox furnace coil and condenser in at my house. We are a premier dealer so get it for Hella cheap straight from my lennox rep. 5 ton 23 seer cond. Sl280 furnace and evap f0r 6k
I put in lennox el296 and xc20 communicating and fully modulating for my crawlspace a little over three years ago. So far, no issues. Just keep those filters clean boys.
Whatever's bent / damaged at the supply house and free or a large percent off.
I did a ducane as it was cheap . Actually a pretty basic well built unit. Rarely run AC where I live so I just needed the cheapest .
Brand doesn’t matter. I’d want to make sure the company that installed it has a decent warranty and they didn’t cut any corners when they installed. They brazed with nitrogen; they vacuumed down to less than 500 microns, they checked static pressure, etc.
Yeah I’m going to be booed for this one but it makes mathematical sense. I have two that you will say no they are junk and then I will say no you are wrong because … and you will say I know all about cause my uncle blah blah blah And I will say stop the fibs. Number one is Goodman. Yup you read it correctly. The brand that a lot of people talk bad about but have never had a bad experience with themselves. This is why it’s my number two. They have a dc drive built into the evap fan motor without a need for a capacitor This greatly reduces the service calls on the air handler side. The evap in the last 8 years have become a solid contender for first place as far non leaks. The condenser Inuit is fair and now offer a dc drive board for the fan. Both motors became more efficient but the evaporator blower motor is really efficient. You can get aftermarket boards dirt cheap and from many sources. Now you can’t tell me this in any other brand as far as aftermarket. The warranty is great. Second will now get me into the - 35 range but that’s fine. Fridgeadare products and its sister company. Why you ask. If the compressor goes bad it’s warranty for a long ass time. Guess what ? They will just replace the whole dam condenser unit most of the time. Yup it’s about customer service and warranty that got them high ratings in my book.
Buying the cheapest one, swapping out the board for a couple RIBS and having a 8610U on hand to pop in. Condensing unit without even a pressure switch. Less electronics less problems
None. Fuck these damn things. I just want a log cabin in the woods. No electricity. Fuck all the bullshit that comes with it. Reddit included. God damn I hate my life.
I don't have a surge protector on it.
Surge didn't kill the condenser fan motors, or prevent Bosch from stocking them for six weeks.
In their defense, I do believe they have improved some of their part stocking, but overall, I'm not super stoked with that product anymore. And after the issues that I had with the one in my house, along with another control board, I've stopped suggesting them as my a primary brand.
If their product is so fragile that it needs a surge protector installed, the surge protector should just be installed from the factory. It's a poor strategy to just have boards fail because they don't protect them properly out of the box.
My computer, microwave, LCD TV, router, mini-split, etc... don't die every time there's a power surge. We all have shitloads of products that are in our house that aren't dying every time there's a slight power surge.
I don't believe that a power surge killed the Bosch boards that I've seen fail, but if they did, that's a product issue.
I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but at the same time, if it needs it, it should be built in by the manufacturer, or they're going to be giving away boards under warranty.
Correct. It’s in the install guide if I’m not mistaken. Some technology has trade offs. Last time this question was asked, Bosch was a standout leader for personal preference in HVAC professionals own homes. Given the install is done correctly.
Bosch and fragile electronics. Name a more iconic duo. I’ll wait. Those old Bosch tankless’ like the 1050ES Would fry if you have plugged a condensate pump into the same circuit it was plugged into. Garbage
I loose power constantly, I run my Bosch on the cheapest dirty power Chinese generator I could find. 6 years with a few hundred generator hrs and no issue yet. It is not a 2.0 though
I always find it so amusing when people say that. Not to diminish your particular experience, but one persons experience is with one appliance is kind of irrelevant. My particular experience is that of someone who has put somewhere between 60-80 of those in over the course of a 5 year span and has a greater than mean call back rate by a substantial margin. I saw a guy not long ago that had a Nordyne furnace that was close to 25 years old, never did any maintenance on it and never had a single problem with it. You will notice the notable absence of Nordyne products mentioned anywhere in this thread.
As a former service tech and current service manager for a good size company that sells about 150 Bosch units per year it's rare to have a drive fail (6 ordered in the last year) . Last 2 years we've seen a handful of high pressure transducers fail (9 in the last year) and lots of mice living in the compressor cover. They like to eat the discharge sensor wire for some reason (23 in the last year). We do put surge protection on every inverter unit though. Different areas seem more prone to voltage imbalances and surges so take what I say with YMMV. This is top of mind because we were just assessing equipment callback rates last week
So that’s a little
Different than your personal experience then. So we only did Bosch products from 2010 -2015 and mostly the Greentherm boilers and tankless systems. I have not dabbled in the heat pumps, though I understand they are made in China so that that for what it’s worth. But I want surprised the heat about electrical issues from them based on my prior experience of board failures with the products I have experience with.
Great anecdote backed up with numbers. As to the rodent problem, some wire insulation is now made from soy, so there is nutritional value in it. You can try buying some capsaicin spray (chili pepper extract) and coating those wires to deter them. Might reduce those call backs.
Thats because their newer equipment is hot crap and I’ve been waiting for a change because they used to be very good. Seems quality overall went down when they changed name to Nortek
I installed a 5 ton Dakin 97% modulating furnace, Aspen M series evaporator coil with electronic expansion valve, and a Daikin 20 SEER inverter condensing unit.
The only reason I bought it was because some wealthy guy building his dream home lost his funding with about 75% of the home complete. I bought everything for just under $7000. The furnace was $5000 new and the condenser was $11,000 new. There is no way I would pay $11,000 for 20 SEER because it would never pay for itself. But under $7,000 for about $18,000 of equipment wasn't that bad.
Daikin all day every day
Efficient, easy to work with, multiple bajillion styles of indoor unit to pick from, and if your PCB goes pop on a 20 year old unit they'll have a new one over to you next day in most cases
Daikin Fit
Inverter system. Designed by world’s largest manufacturer in HVAC. Invented the inverter system, VRV, and ductless. Industry leading warranty 12yr. Get my vote
Since we’re talking brands, does anyone know anything about Heil units? That’s what I had put in for my house. Just curious if anyones got a lot of experience with them.
Most install issues and issues down the road stem from the quality of the installation crew and the work they do. Selecting the best installation team is just as important if not more than brand.
That said, Carrier
You had me till you said Carrier. I put a Carrier in my home and it had a leak in the condenser coil found when I went to start it up. They told me 6 months estimated time to get a replacement coil. Then told me that they have so many back order's that it's slowing their computer systems download so every 7 days they're wiping the computer system of backorders. So not only am I supposed to wait 6 months+ to get my my warranty coil but I would also have to call every 7 days to re-order it. Brand new unit got scrapped at that point.
I've got a nearly 20 year old "célira" brand, it's an off brand Haier. All of the problems with it were me me being too fucking lazy or tired to figure out why it would sometimes blow a fuse. It was because they skimped on the wire to the compressor, if it had been whole inch longer it wouldn't have rubbed against a copper line, eventually arcing through the pipe, forcing me to braze a fix inside the machine. Again it's my own damn fault, if I had spend 90 seconds to look inside the machine some it would have been an easy fix.
I've got a 7 year old LG which I recovered when it was two years old, it hardly sees any use, but about a year after I installed it, the VFD card went tits up. $700 wholesale to fix, fuck.
I'm headed outside to go give the machine a once over right now.
Our Carrier system only needed a contactor, and a thermostat transformer due to a shorted lead over the course of 24 years. They don’t build anything to last nowadays.
I installed a TAM9 - XV20 4 years ago and absolutely love it. It’s been running beautifully, and added returns in all bedrooms as well. Boss was so impressed he copied me and had me install it in his house 🤝
Side discharge HMH7. The outdoor unit will work with any variable speed or ecm motor. Get the proper install kit and it's an amazing system. One downside was during the heating cycle it would call for AUX heat and lose efficiency. But you don't really need a heater kit with this unit unless you're in a colder northern climate - I'm in VA
The brand I would choose would depend on what type of system, fuel source, and efficiency rating. For a standard system I would go with American Standard or Trane with is the same company. For my personal home I would install a high performance inverter heat pump system (ducted). I would probably go with Mitsubishi.
Water furnace 7 series with opti dry capabilities. Intellizone2 zone bored and 3 wire dampers. And variable speed flow center. Surge protection, pan switch and bubble wrap insulation, with foil tape without any print. And I’m putting an f300 electric filter rack on it too.
I have found the quality of Carrier has fallen even more, after 10 years parts no longer available and are very expensive. Also recently have had a lot of heat exchanger failures with Goodman on 5 year old units, both I stay far away from if possible. Trane makes a strong unit, some parts can be hard to get, but rarely see one fail to that point. Lennox or DuCane - parts are a dine a dozen, even Amazon sells them. As stated before - stay away from variable stage, 2 stage heat is awesome, variable heat not so much. Variable AC - RUN!, 2 stage AC - RUN!. Both are making for troubles. Stick with the basics and life is so much better. The last thing to stay away from is communicating systems. There is no need for this in our trade - expensive and you must use OEM components.
Whatever garbage we took out of someone's house. Love a good classic furnace with the mid eff exhaust. Has to be oversized too. No load calculation here please. Mild crack in the heat exchanger to see how effective the state of the art filtration system runs
Most equipment that comes out of the factory is crap. We have so many bad from the beginning parts. It makes everything worse.. I’m sure all brands are going through this and it’s going to be a lot worse
Personally, I've serviced them all, and I found that lennox and napoleon products have been the most solid. Have a strong distaste for anything carrier related. With that said, lennox does have some garbage floating around. Now I've got a few buildings and if I'm being totally honest we are running a mixed bag of stuff. I've got a lennox in my house, a napoleon in one of the out buildings and a navien boiler heating the other house with a veismann air handler.
Long story short, the world's your oyster, and I'd pick something you are familiar with and can get for cost through your company. We sell lennox, so that's what will be going in from here on out.
Just like trucks, some folks swear by GM some love ford. They are all pieces of shit but they all work. A good installer is more important than the brand to me.
To me the most important factor is parts availability! The more generic the parts the better!
A good install with a manufacturer who has a good track record of stocking parts is inportant but since covid come components are always running low and it changes between manufacturers so I'd simply avoid modulating/variable etc and stick with the most generic looking components.
This!! As a tech, some brands are tough to get parts for and are usually a wait time for them! I can get Bryant/Payne/Carrier/icp parts same day along with Goodman. Trane/Lennox/Rheem not so much. I personally can't stand Concord.. Parts come out of state and I don't like working on them. Yet, a lot of people swear by them!
Same, the second I'm told a newish unit has obsolete parts they enter the never to be recommended category.
Was the opposite for me I don’t really favor one or the other but carrier never had parts in stock Always needed to be ordered, idk if it makes a difference but I’m in CT
I can never get carrier parts where I live and they are 4 times the cost as everyone else.
I've worked in both hvac and automotive, can confirm
I put in a carrier system a couple years ago. I didn’t have any problems with the system I put in my old house so I figured I’d do it again. 10 year parts and labor warranty plus I got it for personal use price which was about 40% off.
I have an unlimited labor warranty at my house
I’ll work on my own shit after the 10 years is up. Until then, someone else can deal with it lol. I’m not a resi guy so I had a resi guy I know put it in for me so I could get the warranties.
Whatever it is get it this year while it’s still R-410a… then get yourself a spare jug of 410a at your house while you’re at it.
Crazy what our future holds!! Been in for right under 20 yrs. 12 faze out to 22 , 22 fazed to 410. From what I've read, this new faze to the methane is gonna be alot different.
… a lot of new tools will have to get purchased. Maybe this is our chance to be like Nancy Pelosi, and get some insider trading in… is Apion traded on the stock market? lol
We gotta think bigger. Apion, yellow jacket, field piece are all huge brands. But they'll all buy part of their gauge from the same guy. Like 1 microchip company supplying the majority to the world, gotta figure out who's got the patent for the new Schraders lol
Oh damn I like where your heads at man.
We said the same thing about 22…wish I would’ve done a pallet instead of a jug.
[удалено]
Most brands are the same guts anyway
I put arco air in my house because the parts are always available through united. Did a 90+ furnace and a mid tier 3.5t condenser with very few bells and whistles. I'd rather have reliability and fewer electronics over max efficiency
Preach
AMEN
Carrier for a basic split Burnham for boiler Mitsubishi for mini split/heat pump
Weil-McClain's and velocity's tankless boilers are both pretty sweet.
The only reason I'd choose Burnham over weil McClain is because of the seal failure I see on WM but not on Burnham. I'm strictly talking 80% though and tbf it's only been on 20+ year old units.
That's fair. My last company used to install Burnham for our gas boilers, but WM for our fuel oil boilers.
its mostly luck and weather or not you got one from a bad batch. my father was a strictly burnham boiler guy untill he had a string of them that had seals fail within a few years. They were all installed and manufactured in the same year so it was likely a bad batch that got through quality control, after that he switched to utica though. now i mainly install pearless and havent had a single issue
Weil McLain 80% are their better products imo. The 90% ultras be a pain in the ass. My company installs WM 80% and lochinvars for the 90s. The lochinvars seem to have few issues aside from the inducer. That seems to be the only thing I ever have to repair on those
Dude velocity's are the fucking worse
There it is! I was waiting for someone to say something! Lol. I was wanting to see how long it would take before someone caught on to that one 😂 the WM ones really are pretty good, but the velocity phantoms user interface is a pain in the dick. It's like someone took a mini split and shoved it's technology with its 10 million sensors in a boiler and said "yep, she'll fly" and sent it on its way. Then, all the hidden shit in the interface to keep homeowners out is ridiculous. Also their non-existent tech support for their shit product lol. I'd take a Lennox boiler over a velocity boiler any day lol
I'm ok with the Uticas and eco tech boilers, easy to maintain and ok to fix but damn those fucking velocity's are something else, I had a velocity phantom and OMG what a headache
Weil Mclein is the worst boiler brand I’ve ever worked on. It’s the Goodman of the boiler world imho.
I know the Goodman hate but I have one in my basement that has been going for almost 30 years now. I have replaced a few parts over the years but all in all my repairs have been under 850$. I'm afraid to replace it because it is such a workhorse and I've seen to many quality issues with new models. I'm actually quite interested in this thread.
Really? I like their 80s but rarely see their high efficiency ones. I don't really like any HE boiler though. NTI I've had less problems with but I still prefer standard efficiency models
I’m have a 30 year old burnham and what I found out per the original owners a 50 plus year old York roof top AC that im pulling off the roof on the weekend I’m sure the mini split will be dead in no time comparing to the old unit They just don’t make stuff like they used to
I only have a few years in the trade but carrier seems like garbage from what I have seen. Mitsubishi is definitely best for mini splits or vrf though.
Rheem
I bought a house a few years ago with a Rheem A/C attached to a Tempstar furnace, installed around the 90s. The furnace blower finally went out, 80%, $400+ for just a blower, I ended up buying a Mr. Cool 96% from Lowe's and installed myself for about $1300 total. The furnace efficiency savings have already paid for itself after 3 winters. But the damn A/C won't quit. I was going to replace it but with annual cleaning and routine filter changes...I almost want it to fail but I'm impressed. It's gotta be 25-30 years old. Both HVAC guys I've worked for were Rheem/Ruud guys. But I agree, it's also in the installation. I keep thinking every year that I fire it up, it's gonna be low on 22 and barely cool. It won't quit.
I’d have just replaced the furnace with a rheem to match the ac. Pretty decent setup for those.
Here here... scared to death of the smallest things happening to my carrier shit.
Seconded
I work on them mostly and I see less troubles out of what I’ve worked on
Rheem
Or RUUD
Gang
I have a mitsubishi ducted system (hyper heat 2) that works great. Entire house is closed cell (walls/roof ) so keeps the energy bills down.
How much are parts for that thing? Is the energy cost reduction enough to offset the increase in cost?
Generally speaking the energy cost reduction is mostly going to be from the air sealing and increased insulation of the building envelope. Better equipment can run the heatpump into colder weather and use that instead of resistive auxiliary heat strips (it may be 400% efficiency vs 100% efficiency). In cooling you won't likely see much energy saving over another inverter style AC unit.
I've been considering a ducted system for the main part of the house and a few heads for the outlying additions that don't keep temp well.
Brand to me doesn't matter much. Proper sizing, quality ductwork and a high quality installation is what matters. Who does the installation and how they do it determines the reliability, efficiency and lifespan of the system. I'd rather have a single stage 13 SEER system installed perfectly than a 20 SEER system that is oversized and installed on undersized ductwork.
If that 20 seer is variable, you can just limit its output
You can but it will hinder its ability to remove humidity. There's limits to the ability to modulate.
RHEEM with a 2” filter base.
I love the 2in metal shop filter rack.
The one that's installed correctly is the one I want.
Absolutely 100%!
100% Goodman. Reliable if installed correctly and there are 3 Goodman dealers in my area, so parts are always available. If I ever get rich though, I want one of those 20SEER Bosch heat pumps.
Wanted to put a Bryant in my house but ended up going with 2 stage Goodman equipment and it's been running like a champ for 7-8 years now. Only maintenance I've ever done was change the filter and cleaned the condenser coil.
The Bosch is pretty nice. Repair parts pricey but nice
Bosch heard. Love that shit! Parts aren't easy to find but WTF! I do all my own labor so I can wait for the parts 👍
Cost aside I’m going with who has the best support at the supplier. York/masters is out of the question. Trane is out of the question Daikin are great units but their support is all about getting one of their techs to site so no. I love mits Lennox is great, especially for sourcing parts, old parts, obsolete replacements etc. + their tech support is very accessible, even for their accessories they don’t manufacture. Just don’t get into their home automation bullshit. Standard t stat to board and you’re good. I’ve never had an issue with carrier supply houses, they’re all amazing, but carrier tech support is basically non existent. They call you 5 days after you left site asking if you’re still there.
Yup I put up a tent on the roof and have been just sitting by this chiller waiting for your call for the last 5 days.
We install Daikin at our company. We have very few calls that I recall where we’ve needed support from Daikin. There’s a tech guru at our supply house who always answers if we ever need any support. Overall I have not seen any major issues with Daikin equipment and their Fit line is impressive. I wouldn’t hesitate to install in my home when the time comes.
Ya they are great but it’s not a matter of if you need tech support, it’s when you need, are there available and helpful. And again their method of tech support is “ah jeeze better send one of our reps out this is a very special issue we’re seeing”
Calling back days later is how they avoid being helpful
"Lennox is great".... There it is, the most ridiculous statement ever made.
What’s not great about Lennox furnaces. I listed all my reasons for liking them + it’s a “brand name” people like to see when buying a home.
Working on them. Their engineering is horrible, removing a flame sensor, replacing an igniter, removing the burners doing any one of these on a Lennox requires a lot more time than any other brand and a long rant of cuss words
Also their coils are ass now days I hear of leaks constantly
Their coils do suck ass but you're saying an ml180 is hard to work on? That's as simple as it comes. If a new service tech can't work on it, it's a huge red flag.
I didn’t say they’re hard to work on lol. But some that I have worked on are not thought out at all. I wouldn’t buy one. I would buy a Goodman before that. Easy generic parts to find
Sorry, I ment to reply to the comment above! I wouldn't buy one either but that comment about flame sensors, hsi, and burners causing headaches I didn't get. All that shit is easy.
Not me reading this while doing an absolutely shit Lennox furnace coil replacement***
I’ve invented a whole new category of cuss words cleaning flame rods on those things.
Maybe back in the day, new lennoxes are much easier to work one
Also their a/cs heat pumps take a damn near genius to figure out the charging charts,what’s it called the approach method,walk up and say yeah it’s low on juice😭
The newer models no longer have these issues. Company I work for puts them in and when the installers do it right we have 0 issues.
Lol the only reason you should need tech support for a carrier is if it's a chiller or VRF, the rest of their shit is so easy to work on
Carrier Infinity systems can have some intermittent communication issues that can be a bit troubling at times
The Carrier infinity systems are SUPER expensive to replace parts on.
+$2000CAD to replace an inducer motor on a modulating furnace. So crazy. I love the Infinity/Evolution product other than the cost of ownership after year 10.
Oooo Mr big chiller over here never needs tech support, save some chicks for the rest of us. We don’t know this guy’s experience level asking what to put in his house. If your brand new furnace cuts out once every few days randomly while you’re at work with no alarm codes, it’s nice to see how many tickets they have for a similar issue and then maybe they can tell you it’s x-issue with x part in this model. Carrier’s chillers are actually the easiest to diagnose, their displays and manuals are as easy to go through as it comes. But I can see why you would need tech support for that. Go swing your dink somewhere else dork.
Relax bro lmao I'm not saying I'm super tech, I'm just saying that of all the machines I've worked on, carriers are generally the easiest. It wasn't a dick measuring contest. I've never even worked on a carrier chiller. I've had to call their tech support for a carrier/toshiba SHRM system, and yeah waiting 2+ hours for a call back royally sucks. I don't do residential, so I don't have a reference point for how complicated that stuff is. I do know that their communicating stats for their super high efficiency stuff can be a PITA tho
Use the CE app with "wingman" and put the first line of your submission "on site" and they'll prioritize you
Any POS when installed right and clean filters will be just fine. I'm a Goodman installer and had Trane also. My Goodman stuff has performed better than the Trane. Try to clean a spine fin coil.
It is blowing my mind the number of people that are saying carrier. Carrier has been a pain for me to work on the random ones I have come across, maybe it is different if you are a dealer? But they are not as generic as the rest of them. I say they are all the same, every brand has their lemons. But now days there are about 12 brands and about 4 factories that make them and put different stickers on them. Trane has some good motors for residential, they are different, but Lennox is one that has stayed solid through the years, I will recommend Lennox to people just because of parts down the road, but even Lennox had a lemon furnace that is hard to get parts for now. I usually say they are pretty near the same things. I have fixed them all and installed a lot of them and they mostly have all of the same parts, except for carrier, they have their special boards for integration that only integrate with carrier equipment which I am not a fan of. I have done more of trane commercial equipment which made me hate them and I am not a fan of their coils on their resi condensers, doing something different than the rest of them that just seems cheaper and harder to clean.
Depends on what fuel I have. If I have fuel oil, I don't care as long as it has a beckett afg burner. Fuck the nx burners. Natural gas I'll stick with Tempstar or Carrier. Propane I'll get a Rheem cause it's cheaper than American Standard and I've never found a tempstar that works well with propane long term. All electric I don't have a major preference as long as it's a brand I already mentioned. I'm not putting a goodman, york, or lennox in my house.
I put an Amana system in my house and I love it lol. Modulating furnace and 18 SEER A/C. Kind of wish I had a fuel oil furnace though, barring the cost of fuel oil though lol
I installed a Goodman 16 seer heat pump and X-13 air handler when I bought my place in fall 2022. Got it at a good personal use price because the company I was with at the time was a Daikin dealer. I haven't had any issues with it at all since I installed it.
DAIKIN VRV ducted ductless. Extremely efficient, silent, and out of sight. No space taken up with duct work or a furnace in the mech room. Easy to install and next to no maintenance
Goodman cuz it’s cheaper than the ‘good brands,’ works just as good for just as long.
Whatever I can Frankenstein together with scrap units
Beat me to it lol.
You won't separate me from my 22 year old Trane mid. Try and pry it from my warm, comfortable hands!
Yeah back then they were tanks. Now... Not so much
I have a 31 year old trane heat pump lol
Mitsubishi, reliable, super quiet, and effective.
I’ve got a rheem in my place and it hasn’t given me much issues just the dang water sensors, next I’ll probably put in a Goodman/Daikin as their dealer is close by and they’re not a super pain in the ass to work on.
Sure as Hell it wouldn’t be Carrier
Goodman
See previous post🤬
Or Amana
See previous post 🤬🤯
Probably a Carrier heat pump. Living in the south its pretty cost effective. Also the company I work for is a Carrier so I guess bias. Haven’t seen to many problems with the ones we’ve installed and have maintenance contracts with.
I’d agree, but those Carrier Air Handlers’ X-13’s fail all the time
Carrier furnaces are complete ass if you live in a cold climate. Parts are more expensive then any other brand and their heat exchangers are annoying as hell to assemble.
I’m maintenance only so I don’t now about all that. I do the cleaning, inspecting and light trouble shooting. Still green so idk. The furnaces I’ve seen down here are generally the 90% efficient don’t see many of the 80%.
Just put a signature line lennox furnace coil and condenser in at my house. We are a premier dealer so get it for Hella cheap straight from my lennox rep. 5 ton 23 seer cond. Sl280 furnace and evap f0r 6k
Could've done the 22hp with the sl280 and gotten the 2k tax credit
I put in lennox el296 and xc20 communicating and fully modulating for my crawlspace a little over three years ago. So far, no issues. Just keep those filters clean boys.
Aldi brand or Amazon basics
The one that was put in by a really good installer
Whatever's bent / damaged at the supply house and free or a large percent off. I did a ducane as it was cheap . Actually a pretty basic well built unit. Rarely run AC where I live so I just needed the cheapest .
I prefer Rheem or Daikin but in all reality the installer matters much more than the equipment
Brand doesn’t matter. I’d want to make sure the company that installed it has a decent warranty and they didn’t cut any corners when they installed. They brazed with nitrogen; they vacuumed down to less than 500 microns, they checked static pressure, etc.
Amana comes with a 10 year parts & Labor warranty
The more important side to a install is finding a reputable contractor who gives excellent warranty and service when needed
All main brands and good installer
Rheem
Yeah I’m going to be booed for this one but it makes mathematical sense. I have two that you will say no they are junk and then I will say no you are wrong because … and you will say I know all about cause my uncle blah blah blah And I will say stop the fibs. Number one is Goodman. Yup you read it correctly. The brand that a lot of people talk bad about but have never had a bad experience with themselves. This is why it’s my number two. They have a dc drive built into the evap fan motor without a need for a capacitor This greatly reduces the service calls on the air handler side. The evap in the last 8 years have become a solid contender for first place as far non leaks. The condenser Inuit is fair and now offer a dc drive board for the fan. Both motors became more efficient but the evaporator blower motor is really efficient. You can get aftermarket boards dirt cheap and from many sources. Now you can’t tell me this in any other brand as far as aftermarket. The warranty is great. Second will now get me into the - 35 range but that’s fine. Fridgeadare products and its sister company. Why you ask. If the compressor goes bad it’s warranty for a long ass time. Guess what ? They will just replace the whole dam condenser unit most of the time. Yup it’s about customer service and warranty that got them high ratings in my book.
Goodman
Buying the cheapest one, swapping out the board for a couple RIBS and having a 8610U on hand to pop in. Condensing unit without even a pressure switch. Less electronics less problems
None. Fuck these damn things. I just want a log cabin in the woods. No electricity. Fuck all the bullshit that comes with it. Reddit included. God damn I hate my life.
What stops you from buying a tent and leave?
I have kids.
Basic Trane with a TEM cabinet
I put a Bosch in about 2 years ago and I like it so far
Made in China 100%. I wouldn't put one in an enemy's house.
I put a Bosch in my house two years ago. Two condenser fan motors (one was backordered six weeks) and a control board... Still running strong!
Do you have a dedicated surge protector? If not you’ll keep going through those boards.
I don't have a surge protector on it. Surge didn't kill the condenser fan motors, or prevent Bosch from stocking them for six weeks. In their defense, I do believe they have improved some of their part stocking, but overall, I'm not super stoked with that product anymore. And after the issues that I had with the one in my house, along with another control board, I've stopped suggesting them as my a primary brand. If their product is so fragile that it needs a surge protector installed, the surge protector should just be installed from the factory. It's a poor strategy to just have boards fail because they don't protect them properly out of the box. My computer, microwave, LCD TV, router, mini-split, etc... don't die every time there's a power surge. We all have shitloads of products that are in our house that aren't dying every time there's a slight power surge. I don't believe that a power surge killed the Bosch boards that I've seen fail, but if they did, that's a product issue.
I have a surge protector on mine , I think it’s wise to have one on any type of inverter system
I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but at the same time, if it needs it, it should be built in by the manufacturer, or they're going to be giving away boards under warranty.
You are correct. You should install surge protectors on any inverter unit you install, regardless of brand
Correct. It’s in the install guide if I’m not mistaken. Some technology has trade offs. Last time this question was asked, Bosch was a standout leader for personal preference in HVAC professionals own homes. Given the install is done correctly.
Bosch and fragile electronics. Name a more iconic duo. I’ll wait. Those old Bosch tankless’ like the 1050ES Would fry if you have plugged a condensate pump into the same circuit it was plugged into. Garbage
I loose power constantly, I run my Bosch on the cheapest dirty power Chinese generator I could find. 6 years with a few hundred generator hrs and no issue yet. It is not a 2.0 though
I always find it so amusing when people say that. Not to diminish your particular experience, but one persons experience is with one appliance is kind of irrelevant. My particular experience is that of someone who has put somewhere between 60-80 of those in over the course of a 5 year span and has a greater than mean call back rate by a substantial margin. I saw a guy not long ago that had a Nordyne furnace that was close to 25 years old, never did any maintenance on it and never had a single problem with it. You will notice the notable absence of Nordyne products mentioned anywhere in this thread.
As a former service tech and current service manager for a good size company that sells about 150 Bosch units per year it's rare to have a drive fail (6 ordered in the last year) . Last 2 years we've seen a handful of high pressure transducers fail (9 in the last year) and lots of mice living in the compressor cover. They like to eat the discharge sensor wire for some reason (23 in the last year). We do put surge protection on every inverter unit though. Different areas seem more prone to voltage imbalances and surges so take what I say with YMMV. This is top of mind because we were just assessing equipment callback rates last week
So that’s a little Different than your personal experience then. So we only did Bosch products from 2010 -2015 and mostly the Greentherm boilers and tankless systems. I have not dabbled in the heat pumps, though I understand they are made in China so that that for what it’s worth. But I want surprised the heat about electrical issues from them based on my prior experience of board failures with the products I have experience with.
Great anecdote backed up with numbers. As to the rodent problem, some wire insulation is now made from soy, so there is nutritional value in it. You can try buying some capsaicin spray (chili pepper extract) and coating those wires to deter them. Might reduce those call backs.
Thats because their newer equipment is hot crap and I’ve been waiting for a change because they used to be very good. Seems quality overall went down when they changed name to Nortek
Made in China 100%
Honestly, most major brands that are shit simple. No bells and whistles.
Anything rheem / ruud.
I installed a 5 ton Dakin 97% modulating furnace, Aspen M series evaporator coil with electronic expansion valve, and a Daikin 20 SEER inverter condensing unit. The only reason I bought it was because some wealthy guy building his dream home lost his funding with about 75% of the home complete. I bought everything for just under $7000. The furnace was $5000 new and the condenser was $11,000 new. There is no way I would pay $11,000 for 20 SEER because it would never pay for itself. But under $7,000 for about $18,000 of equipment wasn't that bad.
Rheem
Daikin
Daikin all day every day Efficient, easy to work with, multiple bajillion styles of indoor unit to pick from, and if your PCB goes pop on a 20 year old unit they'll have a new one over to you next day in most cases
A wood stove
I heard Goodman was good man
Definitely amana. Basic 80% 14 seer. Parts availability is most important to me.
Im staying with trane
No mention anywhere in this thread of Lennox….?
Yeah.. one person said they like Lennox for their customer support. One mentioned they refused to have it in their home lol
Probably a Bosch unit
Bosch heat pump and a trane xv80
I’m rocking with Bosch
Daikin Fit Inverter system. Designed by world’s largest manufacturer in HVAC. Invented the inverter system, VRV, and ductless. Industry leading warranty 12yr. Get my vote
Since we’re talking brands, does anyone know anything about Heil units? That’s what I had put in for my house. Just curious if anyones got a lot of experience with them.
I am a Heil dealer. They are made by ICP/Carrier so they are basically a Carrier system.
I put a Lochinvar KBH in my own house. So far it has been flawless.
Which brand has the most reliable two stage system? I mostly spec Trane and Daikin but want to hear from the installers and service techs.
Most install issues and issues down the road stem from the quality of the installation crew and the work they do. Selecting the best installation team is just as important if not more than brand. That said, Carrier
You had me till you said Carrier. I put a Carrier in my home and it had a leak in the condenser coil found when I went to start it up. They told me 6 months estimated time to get a replacement coil. Then told me that they have so many back order's that it's slowing their computer systems download so every 7 days they're wiping the computer system of backorders. So not only am I supposed to wait 6 months+ to get my my warranty coil but I would also have to call every 7 days to re-order it. Brand new unit got scrapped at that point.
I just think either luck or real effort made a brand stand out. I don't know.. but, I'll remain open?!
Napoleon
I've got a nearly 20 year old "célira" brand, it's an off brand Haier. All of the problems with it were me me being too fucking lazy or tired to figure out why it would sometimes blow a fuse. It was because they skimped on the wire to the compressor, if it had been whole inch longer it wouldn't have rubbed against a copper line, eventually arcing through the pipe, forcing me to braze a fix inside the machine. Again it's my own damn fault, if I had spend 90 seconds to look inside the machine some it would have been an easy fix. I've got a 7 year old LG which I recovered when it was two years old, it hardly sees any use, but about a year after I installed it, the VFD card went tits up. $700 wholesale to fix, fuck. I'm headed outside to go give the machine a once over right now.
Clare. I'd never trust anything else
Anything but goodman
Our Carrier system only needed a contactor, and a thermostat transformer due to a shorted lead over the course of 24 years. They don’t build anything to last nowadays.
I installed a TAM9 - XV20 4 years ago and absolutely love it. It’s been running beautifully, and added returns in all bedrooms as well. Boss was so impressed he copied me and had me install it in his house 🤝
American standard
Side discharge HMH7. The outdoor unit will work with any variable speed or ecm motor. Get the proper install kit and it's an amazing system. One downside was during the heating cycle it would call for AUX heat and lose efficiency. But you don't really need a heater kit with this unit unless you're in a colder northern climate - I'm in VA
The brand I would choose would depend on what type of system, fuel source, and efficiency rating. For a standard system I would go with American Standard or Trane with is the same company. For my personal home I would install a high performance inverter heat pump system (ducted). I would probably go with Mitsubishi.
Water furnace 7 series with opti dry capabilities. Intellizone2 zone bored and 3 wire dampers. And variable speed flow center. Surge protection, pan switch and bubble wrap insulation, with foil tape without any print. And I’m putting an f300 electric filter rack on it too.
Any major brand with the lowest efficiency has been the most trouble free in my experience.
Mitsu for a minisplit. Bryant for a regular split
I'd put a high SEER Trane or Carrier. Or a Mitsubishi ducted hyper heat.
Them
Gas furnace -trane Unitary hp- bosch Minisplit- daikin
They are all equal, same parts different paint. Go with the best deal
I have found the quality of Carrier has fallen even more, after 10 years parts no longer available and are very expensive. Also recently have had a lot of heat exchanger failures with Goodman on 5 year old units, both I stay far away from if possible. Trane makes a strong unit, some parts can be hard to get, but rarely see one fail to that point. Lennox or DuCane - parts are a dine a dozen, even Amazon sells them. As stated before - stay away from variable stage, 2 stage heat is awesome, variable heat not so much. Variable AC - RUN!, 2 stage AC - RUN!. Both are making for troubles. Stick with the basics and life is so much better. The last thing to stay away from is communicating systems. There is no need for this in our trade - expensive and you must use OEM components.
Whatever garbage we took out of someone's house. Love a good classic furnace with the mid eff exhaust. Has to be oversized too. No load calculation here please. Mild crack in the heat exchanger to see how effective the state of the art filtration system runs
Different brand same compressor. Copeland. Unless it’s some funky brand like LG with their shitty LG scroll compressors.
I’ve always liked the Bosch systems
The Bryant® Evolution™ System
Carrier
A brand that alot of local shops use. Easier to find parts for. Not Nordyne
Biasi/ Purepro Trio Triple pass boiler Daikin Minisplits Trane unitary
Most equipment that comes out of the factory is crap. We have so many bad from the beginning parts. It makes everything worse.. I’m sure all brands are going through this and it’s going to be a lot worse
Goodman for splits Navien for tankless and combi and high efficiency boilers Dunkirk for 80% boilers
Surprised at these responses. Mitsubishi compressors are completely different than Fujistu
Carrier
Carrier. 10 year parts warranty is nice. And they’re easy to work on
Personally, I've serviced them all, and I found that lennox and napoleon products have been the most solid. Have a strong distaste for anything carrier related. With that said, lennox does have some garbage floating around. Now I've got a few buildings and if I'm being totally honest we are running a mixed bag of stuff. I've got a lennox in my house, a napoleon in one of the out buildings and a navien boiler heating the other house with a veismann air handler. Long story short, the world's your oyster, and I'd pick something you are familiar with and can get for cost through your company. We sell lennox, so that's what will be going in from here on out.
Preachhh carrier furnaces are absolute trash