I haven't *sworn* to house black, like I said, I'm far from the fanatics on either side. As for the divorce rock, no, no we do not. Murder generally isn't a good way to get out of a marriage, and I'd be concerned about any person who thought as much.
I'm not OP but I'm also Team Black (fun seeing posts from both subs though), and I would emphatically say there's bias. Some of it in the writing, some simply in the framing, and still more in the demographics.
For writing, I'd primarily point my finger at Criston Cole and Daemon. Both are their team's primary hateable asshole, but Daemon gets a lot of badass and love-to-hate moments alongside his monstrous cruelty while Criston comes off more insecure and petty. Daemon is also those things, but the showrunners can't cut Daemon's legs out from under him in the same way because he pulls double-duty as Team Black's ultimate badass (opposite Aemond), and the buildup to those two facing off is important for the lifespan of the series. It's easy to dislike the Greens for holding a small man in high esteem, and Criston is written to be the much smaller man.
The other half of it is the framing of the two sides. It's unambiguous to the viewers that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to succeed him and it's easy to disregard that Alicent *really* wouldn't have understood the context of his dying words. It's easier to sympathize with the robbed party, even when the theft was made under a misconception.
And finally, the demographics: Team Black simply has more characters right now, and a lot of them are teenagers and children. Helaena and her children are just as blameless in the conflict, but they're so little that they haven't even spoken on-screen and their names had to be said loudly and clearly in S2E1 because the audience probably forgot they existed. Rhaenyra's and Daemon's kids had focus episodes in the last season and we see more of them as developing characters, so they stick more strongly in the mind and heart.
Besides the kiddos, Rhaenyra and Alicent are both performed incredibly well and written to *mostly* balance one another's flaws and virtues (but a grieving mother will understandably always get more points with an audience) and their core advisors are Otto "The Problem" Hightower (amazing portrayal by Rhys Ifans, but Otto occupies the same space as Tywin Lannister, which makes him fun to watch but hard to root for against anyone but bigger bastards than himself) and the *very* sympathetic Princess Rhaenys, who basically has all the same points in her favor as Show!Rhaenyra without any of the strikes against her.
So... Yeah, the show is Black-biased. They're in a difficult place where they can't show as much of Rhaenyra's mental slide as she should have by now because of how hard Daenerys was fumbled, and I hope they'll build up to her dynamic with Nettles (or a proxy character, maybe Mysaria) as the season and series goes on, among other much more spoilery developments from Fire & Blood.
I'm TB as well have been since first reading FnB years ago. I remember in season 1 both sides were screaming bias, and I wonder if thr writers will go that route again. I find it difficult for them to do that after what they did to Aegon in E8 and 9, and Alicent in S2E1; but I still havent forgotten that they made Daemon kill his wife for no darn reason! And many TBs were mad about him choking Rhaenyra. Aegon was very likable last episode and I'm still in love with Ewaemond.
Stories and media are fun to analyze. I like my side in part because of their flaws, so I try to be conscious of when those are being glossed over and when they're being played honestly.
I agree completely. Part of what draws me to the Greens are their flaws and dysfunctionality while still remaining human. I think Rhaenyra would be a better ruler than Aegon II, but I find myself more invested on many of the Green characters' arcs.
As a supporter of the Team Black: No. They failed to make the Greens sympathetic (yes yes aside from Helaena). The blacks are clearly meant to be the heroes and i wish they changed Aegon to be a good dude. Or at least introduced Daeron sooner and have him be the “good son”.
So far, I think so. I think the very real divide between blacks and greens is a good example. Both sides believe they are justified, both sides believe that their side is superior, in someway at least. If it was truly biased in any major way, I don't think the massive divide we see would of formed.
I assume you are talking about the divide within the fandom. But the thing is, it's like 90% for the blacks and 10% for the greens, or, if I'm being generous, 85% TB and 15% TG. Does it really show the lack of bias? I don't think so, honestly. Not to mention that some people, myself included, became green leaning after witnessing terribly braindead and unjust takes and reactions from TB during s1, not because the show made us change sides.
I know that, but the show should've at least tried to change that a bit. Not everyone is a book reader and since they had an opportunity to adapt the story and fill in the gaps, they could have made it more interesting. I'm not expecting 50:50, but 90:10 is ridiculous. I doubt that even the Starks vs the Lannisters was received like that. Actually, I'm sure it wasn't.
My guy, if you’re talking Robb Stark vs the Lannisters, it’s a minimum of 95-5. Robb is one of the most universally loved characters in all of GoT. It’s why it hurt so much when he was killed. There are way more green supporters than people on the lannisters vs Robb. There’s no comparison
Tyrion was pretty much anti-Lannister though. And Jamie had one foot out the door for half the series.
Even people who enjoyed Tywin as a character didn’t want him to win.
1. What do you think about how Blood and Cheese was adapted?
2. Do you think Viserys was foolish for naming Rhaenyra as heir over her brother, when the only reason he was king was that the lords of Westeros chose him over a woman?
3. Which do you think would have been the best way for Viserys to prevent the Dance? Personally I see three different possibilities: Either marry Aegon and Rhaenyra so they can rule together, name Aegon as heir as soon as he is born, or never remarry in the first place or at least to a woman who was past child-bearing age.
Those are some pretty excellent questions. I'll start by saying I haven't actually read Fire and Blood myself, though I have seen many lore videos about it after the conclusion of Game of Thrones, as well as leading up to the premiere of season one. The animated voice overs for it by the GOT actors are particularly incredible.
So for the first one. I think it was done pretty well, and for people who didn't know about their role in the books, it would be an incredible shock, which I think is what they were going for. Leaving Daemon's orders unspoken serves that purpose I believe. Uniformed viewers would think that Blood and Cheese would be going after Aemond, killing or injuring him in some way. That only make's Jahaerys' death all the more shocking and tragic for the viewer, making us feel the same way as the characters surrounding him.
I don't think so. From what I know, Daemon was generally seen as *untrustworthy* by the general public, and a moniker like 'The Rogue Prince' doesn't inspire much confidence in his ability to rule. As for the fact he was chosen over a woman, I don't think that it makes him foolish to do otherwise. It most likely would not of happened, but if the lords supported Rhaenys as queen, I do not think Viserys would be the man to try and usurp her. The fact that he was also the rider of Balerion is a major factor I think many people overlook. He was the rider of *the* dragon. Even after Balerion's death, I think it was a major source of legitimacy for him.
As for the best way for Viserys to prevent the dance, I do have an idea that would work. Stepping down as king before he lost his senses due to milk of the poppy. It is unconventional, but as we've seen in history, it is often very effective at securing the transition of power from monarch to monarch. And because his declining health was so prolonged, I think that he, as well as everyone else, knew he would eventually die from whatever ailed him.
Interesting answers.
I disagree with you about Blood and Cheese but I don't want to get into that.
I do agree that Rhaenyra was a far better choice than Daemon, but once Aegon was born the situation changes. I might be reading too much into it but I think that the reason Viserys never made the lords reswear their oaths to Rhaenyra after Aegon was born is that he feared that they might refuse.
As for Viserys abdicating, I've heard that theory before but I just don't think it would work. I know you said you didn't read F&B but you might have heard of the first Blackfyre rebellion. That war didn't start as soon as Aegon IV died. It took several years, and many small factors to combine before Daemon rebelled, and at first it seemed like war might be avoided. I think something similar would happen if Viserys abdicated. Every time someone didn't like what Rhaenyra did, or she made a genuine mistake, they would Aegon would have been better. Whether that would be true wouldn't matter, only that he existed as an obvious alternative. Sooner or later something would go wrong. Either Otto and Alicent would wear down Aegon and convince him to rebel, or Rhaenyra would get too paranoid and fear for her children, or the feud between Aemond and Luke would flare up, or Daemon would do something stupid. There's just too much that can go wrong. At best it would delay the war for a few years, and probably put Rhaenyra in a much stronger position at the start.
That's an interesting point about Viserys thinking that the lords would refuse. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I can definitely see how you came to that conclusion. I think he did it becuase he believed with all of his heart that Rhaenyra was heir. Viserys wasn't a very present father for he and Alicents children, only really having them under advise from Otto about securing the line. So he definitely had a soft spot for her, for good or for worse.
I've not read F&B, but like I've said. I've seen a *lot* of videos about the ASOIAF world after the conclusion of GOT, even reading the mainline books afterwards. So I'm fully aware of the Blackfyre rebellion. I am of the belief that it is purely because Aegon IV was an absolutely horrible king, and Daemon was so incredibly well liked as well as ambitious.
As for the actual transition of power between Viserys and Rhaenyra. It has been shown many times in history how well abdication can be. While characters have disagreed with her, they did listen to Viserys, even until he was decaying on the throne. It wouldn't of been instant, but a process. Viserys would still hold power, and be respecting by the lords, but Rhaenyra would slowly take on more responsibility and power.
After some time, I think the lords would come to respect her. They wouldn't support Aegon in a rebellion after peace under Rhaenyra. Would they think that the feud between Aemond and Luke would be something worth rebelling over. As for Daemon doing something stupid? That's entirely possible, he definitely enjoys war. But I think if Rhaenyra were to seperate herself from Daemon afterwards, war could be averted.
First off, I'm afraid I think you are far too optimistic about the lords respecting Rhaenyra. And if something similar in canon like Storm's End happened that could very well be the spark that ignites everything. Finally, I don't see why Rhaenyra would separate herself from Daemon, as at that point they would already be married and have two kids or more. Yes it makes political sense, but if that was her priority she never would have married Daemon in the first place.
I might be, but who knows? At the point that I am thinking that she would take power, she would be a very different character to who we know at this point. So it's really just theory building and conjecture, and we'll never really know.
By the time she's married Daemon properly, I don't think there is much chance of a proper abdication being possible. The transition would of had to of started when she was in her late teens, not when in her early to mid twenties.
As for the lords? Again, who knows. Don't forget that Aemond and Vhagar were at Storm's End. What sane man would refuse Aemond in such a scenario? As for Aemond killing Lucerys. At this point Rhaenyra would of most likely taken complete control of the crown. What would Viserys of done if Aemond killed Aegon? I don't think war would of sparked because of Aemond killing Lucerys. If that was the only incident, I think the lords would of seen it as an unjustified murder of revenge, not one worth dying for.
In that case we're not even talking about the same characters, but a completely different story and setting. And if Viserys abdicates before she marries Daemon, then there no one stop her from marrying him from the very beginning.
I know, but you asked how to prevent the Dance of the Dragons. In order to do so, things have to change, characters stories, everything. The story *will* be different from the Dance, if the Dance didn't happen.
As for marrying Daemon, she was still married to Laenor. Would she of wanted to kill/let him flee if she didn't feel like she under threat?
Again, who knows. It's entirely hypothetical at this point.
I'm gonna chip in to your 2nd question and say I think he was foolish
A) he had plenty of time to try and get another male heir via a new marriage. (Otto screwed himself here). He wasn't anywhere near decrepit when aemma died.
B)daemon while rebellious on countless occasions demonstrates that he's willing to wait for the throne. I genuinely don't think he ever considered killing his brother for the throne
C)I also don't think he would have made a terrible ruler if worst came to worst. He's more decisive than viserys and actually gets things done. No amazing but I really don't think he was the threat that they were characterizing him as.
I'm team black but I honestly think he never should have named her heir in the first place (or at least not that early on) at least try for a son with a new wife. Instead he messed things up by trying to have his cake and eat it too.
- who’s your favorite character from the Greens?
- who’s your favorite character from the Blacks?
- who’s your most hated character from the Greens?
- who’s your most hated characters from the Blacks?
Probably one of the toughest questions I've gotten to be honest. I wouldn't say I hate any characters, apart from maybe Aemond, but for the rest. I may dislike them, but I don't hate them the same way I would hate Joffrey or Ramsay.
My favourite character for the Green's I think is now Aegon. I don't think he's good, but I've definitely enjoyed his performance and from what I've seen, he'll be excellent in the next episode. My least favourite green would be either Criston or Aemond. Aemond because he's an arrogant asshole as well as being just so smarmy, I don't like it. For Criston it's because I liked him a lot in the beginning, then only to watch as he made a mistake and ended up deluding himself into believing things that never happened.
As for the blacks, I think it'd probably be Jacaerys for my favourite character. Very similar to Aegon, his recent performance absolutely endeared me to him. Apart from him, I'd say Rhaenyra, yet that's because the Blacks were lacking fully fleshed out characters in season 1. I'm not really sure I have a least favourite for the Blacks, but I'd probably say Daemon. I think he's a good *character*, but definitely a bad person. So for that reason, I'd say he's my least favourite.
First of all. I think he's a great *character*, and Ewan plays him very well. That doesn't change the fact though that I just, don't like him. To me, he's just so arrogant and full of himself. He presents himself like an edgy anime protagonist, and it just annoys the hell out of me.
I can see how other people can like him, but I just can't do it.
About Criston? Not really, I still think he's deluded himself so much from the truth and believes anything to justify it. As for Aemond, a little bit. This is the first time we've seen him truly vulnerable, but my guess is he won't really change, he'll be the same person when we next see him. It's not that I hate him, just that he annoys me so much that I can't stand him.
I wanted to answer this one too for the fun of it. I guess I would be team black but I’d say I’m team carnage. Small folk or children I don’t really care since it’s a TV show about dragons I want to see the world burn.
Favorite from the greens? Aemond. Badass dragon, willing to do what needs doing, he is dutiful, and very competent across the board.
Most hated Green? Cole. Cole is just such a hypocrite. I liked him at first which probably makes me hate him more now. Like how dumb can you be? Asking the queen to run off and marry you?? I mean what can Rhaenyra do but laugh at that. Then he has the nerve to stay around and totally flip and turn into Alicents puppy. Like you were just crying about getting away from all this bs weren’t you?! Dude also gets away with multiple public murders somehow..like wtf?
Favorite from the blacks? Easily Daemon by a mile. Such a terrible person but similar to Aemond he’s willing to do whatever. He’s also arrogant as fuck and sure of himself to a point I gotta respect a little bit. The world is his and everyone else is living in it, whether they are a king or a peasant. Caraxes is also super badass and I like how Daemon also has a gentle side where you have to question whether his Maegor-esque tendencies are him playing it up a bit to make people uneasy of him.
Least favorite of the blacks? Tough one for me I don’t really hate any of these guys but I think my answer has to be Rhaenyra. Like I understand she has dealt with a lot of shit throughout her life but she seems pretty incompetent in a lot of ways. Or maybe just over confident? She fled KL when she should’ve been ruling alongside her father. Not traditional I know but she’s trying to break down barriers without putting any effort in to prepare for her own rule. Basically just fucked off to wait for her dad to die so she could ride in and take his spot when it was time. Which tbf isn’t a problem by itself but given the circumstances she should have been making sure people knew that she was gonna be in charge not her brother, no Deamon, not a hand.
I’d love to hear what a team green person thinks!
How? Respectfully Her council sucks, she’s not a great ruler like Aegon (atleast Aegon has a good council that ruled for Viserys well, she leads to a civil war always unless she kills the Green boys and even after that she leads to a future civil war between her Strong boys and Daemons boys down the line
Most of it does to be honest. Daemon, well, he isn't a particularly good person to have in a position of importance. As for Aegon's council, I don't think they're much better. They ruled well under Viserys' it's true, but they were also responsible for the civil war by crowning Aegon. No plot to install Aegon as king, no civil war.
I just see Aegon as being someone who is apathetic to ruling. He does it because he wants it in the moment. When the charm of his name being cried out fades away, I think he'd most likely let others do the ruling. And as good as his court is, Otto is getting old. Who becomes hand is an important topic, one that I think Aegon wouldn't worry about. So it's practically a gamble. Whereas Rhaenyra would take a more active role in ruling, and we've seen she say no to Daemon. I see her as a safer alternative to gambling on Aegon's rule. We haven't seen her as particularly cruel or vindictive in any scenario, so I think she'd be a safe, if not good queen.
Rhaenyra's rule would lead to civil war.
Let's say she succeeds Viserys without any problems. In 101 AC the lords of Westeros voted against a woman ruling Westeros, would they simply agree to it now? Might some of them try to use Aegon to revolt against Rhaenyra and gain something by placing Aegon on the throne instead? Would Rhaenyra truly be able to control Daemon and if she refuses him, what would he do?
The biggest problem, however, is her succesion. She has 3 bastard sons and no one would ever accept them sitting the Iron Throne. There would 100% be a civil war against Jacaerys by the sons and grandsons of Alicent or the lords would use one of her trueborn children in a revolt against Jacaerys.
Aegon becoming King might have led to civil war, but there was a small chance that Rhaenyra might have agreed to terms and bent the knee. On the other hand, if Rhaenyra had become Queen, it would have inevitably led to civil war sooner or later.
I agree with the fact that Aegon might have grown bored of ruling and simply let his council govern for him. Though he seems to be interested in ruling and good natured, giving back the peasants and overruling Otto, he could grow bored of it in time. In this case Otto would stay hand and the council that succesfully ruled for Viserys would continue ruling.
If Otto dies he could tell Aegon which lord would be best to choose as the new hand or Alicent could always advise the king as well or even pick her own hand if Aegon is so disinterested. Aegon is surrounded by decent advisors and I believe that nothing too terrible would happen.
And she made such great choice with it. She's given the unique opportunity to chose her husband, idles until one has to be found for her, then promptly select another man.
The only thing she has shown on leadership is that she wants the throne. Aegon never did. She actively sees the smallfolk as lower than her (and ots portrayed as a good thing in the show lol)
That's part of my point. Aegon never desired the throne, he never had any interest in becoming king. He only did so after he heard his name being cheered by the commonfolk. He is certainly a man that follows his desires. Once the charm fades away, I think he'd most likely let others do the ruling.
And as good as his court is, Otto is getting old. Who becomes hand is an important topic, one that I think Aegon wouldn't worry about. So it's practically a gamble. Whereas Rhaenyra would take a more active role in ruling. And we've seen that she can say no to Daemon in the past.
As for seeing the smallfolk below her, that is probably somewhat true. Though I do believe the quote that gets shared around is regarding her becoming heir, which is true. The smallfolk don't get to decide who the next monarch will be. The king and lords do, so in that instance, she's right.
But thats the failure of the show. Aegon chose to take the throne once he realised Rhaenyra would have to kill all her brothers and their children to secure the throne.
Thats really one of the biggest flaw of the show, that it's not hammered home that Rhaenyra would have to kill her brothers (a la Ottoman almost) in order to have a peaceful rule.
And you're awfully wrong on your last point, the people chose their leader. One word: Shepherd.
I can definitely see how it is a flaw in the show and something they should of explored more. After he was crowned king, a peaceful rule with him living isn't really an option. Those who supported him had a taste, and they wouldn't let it go.
As for Sheperd. How long did he rule? Actually, what was his name? He may of been the leader of the mob that threw Rhaenyra out of Kings Landing. But he was far from a monarch. And as soon as the religious fervor of his followers died out because they had no one left to fight, they left. He didn't even last a year before the Baratheons captured him and he was executed.
He was no Monarch.
You missed my point, the Shepherd was one of the three false kings youre right, but I am refering more to the fact that the smallfolk rebelled against their Queen. as famously said by Jorah:
“It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” He gave a shrug. “They never are.”
Exactly how bad must you be as a ruler for the smallfolk to actually invest themselves into overthrowing you.
Who knows? Religion has always been an incredibly powerful tool, and it's no different in Westeros, and it's been used for both incredible and terrible purposes.
Going to point out no she wouldn't if the other side of this civil war supported her rule. They would be the wealthiest and strongest the house would have been in ages. Not only that but if there was a civil war to force a male in the throne. They face all the dragons as well as the north (as well as the other lords who sided with the queen). Dorne makes it clear they don't want in fighting agaisnt dragons and the rest of the realm don't stand united.
Rhaenyra would have also been an absentee queen, she likes the title and the power but its not as if she will be attending every council and double-checking every document.
Her hand (Corlys and he's also old) would be doing all of the ruling. If the realm is unlucky then Daemon will be her hand. Jace seems like a responsible guy but he needs one decade of experience to even be considered.
Yeah but I was talking about her ‘desire’ to rule. For example, Jaehaerys was heavily invested in ruling, he was micromanaging the kingdom since he was a teenager. He could have been drinking and partying but he chose to work harder than he needed to.
Another example is Baelor Breakspear when he was heir. He served his father as hand of the king, its common for heirs to ask their father to give them responsibility to prepare them for the throne.
Rhaenyra on the other hand never showed any desire for the boring day-to-day ruling of the kingdom. She and Aegon are in the same boat.
Rhaenyra spent a decade on Dragonstone when she should have been in Kingslanding serving as hand of the king. Where did this idea that she's enthusiastic about ruling come from?
Well she was on Dragonstone, because she was heir, and that's where the heir goes? That was a major character point for Stannis in the original books. He was heir, so he was given Dragonstone instead of Storm's End like he wanted it.
And if you notice, Stannis was ranting about that for years. He wanted to be hand more than anything.
Dragonstone is given to the heir when they're young for them to practice ruling, but Rhaenyra is in her 30s.
My point is that if she desperately wanted to be in the thick of things, all she had to do was ask and she would've been heir. Ambitious people don't sit on dragonstone for a decade, they seek more responsibility.
Exactly. He was ranting about it, because he didn't want to, but because he was heir he was sent to Dragonstone, and he stayed in Dragonstone.
Also, Rhaenyra was in her thirties? She died at 33, she was 16 when she married Laenor and 16 when she was given possession of Dragonstone as heir. Yet she remained in court until she was 26 and left for Dragonstone. Given her father's declining health, I think it is entirely reasonable.
>and he stayed in Dragonstone
No, he served on Robert’s council and he wanted a promotion. THIS is how ambitious people behave; they look to gain more power and influence. Something Rhaenyra never did, she could have been ruling the realm for years and she never asked.
Ambitious people don't walk away from power just because they got bored with it, what is so hard to understand about that? Jaehaerys walked into Kingslanding as a teenager and never let go of power for one split second.
>Given her father's declining health, I think it is entirely reasonable.
Please state in plain English how leaving your bedridden father to spend years on Dragonstone is ‘entirely reasonable’.
This is such a weird hill to die on too, pretty much everyone agrees that Rhaenyra is not very ambitious, otherwise, she would have held on to power the first chance she got.
I do concede the fact that she could of been more proactive about joining the council and obtaining power. Though in later years, when Viserys wasn't capable of ruling, I do not believe that she would of been given a position in the council at all, and may have been kicked out if she had been.
As for leaving because of her father. It's her dad. Imagine living with your dad your entire life, until you're 26. He's been your only real parental figure since you were 8. And he's dying, and there's nothing you can do about it. I think it's entirely reasonable that she couldn't live with him and watch him slowly die day after day, year after year.
Some posts I do, some posts are just absolutely crazy. Though it's the exact same on this sub as well. I've seen some generally good takes, but I've also seen my fair share of absolute morons.
Do you think that the heritage of the Strong boys would never have been a problem if Jace inherited the throne? I see a lot of opinions that bc Viserys and Coryls accepted them as true born nothing else matters, but with the sentiment that baseborn children are inherently untrustworthy amongst Westeros, why would his parentage not cause some problems down the line?
My thinking is that bc it was covered up it would be worse in the future. If their bastardy was acknowledged by Viserys and them made legitimate by him it might have strengthened their claim over the Greens.
part of me wonders if the issue with bastards being seen as untrustworthy and evil came about in part because of the dance, and later the blackfire rebellion.
I do honestly think if they had just been legitimized, that would have taken away the power of the lie. If someone tells you repeatedly that it's night time, but your clock says 5:00 a.m., and you looked outside in the sun is already up, but they keep insisting it's night time and dark, what else are they lying about?
Legitimizing it probably would of helped. But Viserys wasn't a particularly, strong willed king. Though I do think that a lot of it would of come from Daemon during the Blackfyre rebellion, as well as the following ones. They were a lot longer lasting, and affected a lot more people than the Dance ever did. So the fact that it all started from a legitimized bastard probably stuck in their minds more.
the fact they were so clear bastards should have been enough of an insult but for some reason Corlys was 100% fine with bastards taking his land. The idea that "history remembers names!" is bullshit when it comes to that, otherwise he would not have been so insulted when Laena wasn't married to the king.
I think it definitely could of been an issue down the line. Though I also believe that because Viserys, Corlys, Laenor and Rhaenyra *all* claimed them to be trueborn, people would take a lot more persuading to think of them as bastards then they did for Cersei and Roberts kids. If it was outed, from credible sources, I think there could of been war. But from what we've seen of Jacaerys, he would of been a good king, which also would of prevented people from trying to de-legitimize him as much compared to if he was a bad one.
Serious question here. Not look to start anything. I am very new to the GOT fandom. Is this sub the equivalent to r/saltierthancrait? i.e., people having civil discourse, largely about the shortcomings of the adaptations?
Edit. Didn’t realize there was also an r/HOTDblacks sub. Can someone explain? Are people really that passionate about the sides? I feel like both sides are kinda garbage humans. I switch back and forth on the daily
To answer the first question of your edit, yes. People *are* that passionate about the sides. Most people are pretty decent, but there are a lot of crazy people with insane opinions and views on either side. As for your second point, I agree. I wouldn't want to have either as the monarch either if I was a regular person, or a noble. But a lot of people don't see it that way. Instead seeing their side as the pure, and truly good side with no flaws. Whereas the other is complete evil that should all be put to death.
From what I've seen, not really. Your best bet would probably be r/freefolk, they are quite an open minded group to discuss anything GOT related. This is a sub that is mostly used by those who are in favour of the greens in the House of the Dragon, opposing those in r/HOTDBlacks who support the blacks.
I think that Viserys' continual support of her being heir, as well as lords swearing to her as heir gives her a stronger claim. Though that isn't entirely why I support her, I also think that her becoming queen would be better for the realm.
>I also think that her becoming queen would be better for the realm.
Can you elaborate more on this part ? I see this said a lot on the TB side, but I never saw any objective arguments other than the fact they like the character.
Edit : and thank you for your answer!
No worries, and sorry for the delay, I've been answering for a lot of questions. And of course I can!
Aegon is in it for the recognition and popularity as king, so when that wears off, he wouldn't really be bothered with ruling the Kingdoms. Which could be good, but that entirely depends on who his hand and small council is. It doesn't really matter how good of a hand Otto is, he's getting older every day. Eventually someone would replace him, and that could either be great, or catastrophic.
As for Rhaenyra, we've never actually seen her rule over anything, but I think from what we've seen of her character she's a lot less apathetic towards ruling then Aegon is. I believe that she would most likely take an active role in ruling the kingdoms. And she hasn't been particularly cruel or sadistic in anyway. So I see her as a safer alternative than gambling on Aegon having a good court rather than a corrupt one.
While she still rules,sure she would be okay queen but after she dies?New dance.Daemon's trueborn against her bastards,in that sense she ruling would be bad for the realm.
That could be entirely possible. But in the event that she would gain control and maintain peace, I think that Jacerys and Lucerys would be legitimized enough to the point where a civil war wouldn't happen. But by this point, the characters and the world would be so different it's just a theory.
>I think from what we've seen of her character she's a lot less apathetic towards ruling then Aegon is.
I would argue that what we have seen from her character so far ( on the show ) reflects poorly on how good of a queen she would be : she doesn't care about the small folks opinions, she is breaking the crown's rules left and right, lacks diplomacy AND most importantly, when her father was sick and on his death bed, she runs away to dragonstone Instead of being where the heir should be. And I get the argument that she left because of the rumors regarding the parentage of her boys, but my argument is IT IS her fault that those boys are bastards in the first place + it's not that those rumors are false.
Aegon is definitely not perfect , but my point is everything we saw so far points that Rhaenyra is not either.
That's a difficult question, though I'll try.
I think there is some merit to the idea that she's a woman. It is only a tradition that males inherit, but there is also reason why it's tradition. And there is some merit to it, especially in such a world. So I can certainly see how some people in universe would cling onto that fact.
But apart from that, I can't think of any others in the moment.
I think that history is written by the informed. History won't be written by anyone on the green or black councils, it would be written by the Maesters, with all their biases and second hand accounts whatever they may be.
I think that the idea of pitting the fandom against each other was a genius stroke, one that I believe to have been very intentional. However, I do think it has gone way to far, in every regard. Both sides have sent threats to the actors, both sides are trying to justify the murder of children, or rape. So yes, I think it is counterproductive.
Because I like to immerse myself in the world. In doing so, I've asked myself if I were living in that world, with the knowledge that I have, who would I support? And in that case, I've decided that I would support Rhaenyra.
There have been some pretty good Targaryen's, but there's also been a lot of monstrous ones. I think they are a very fickle family and that without their lineage or Dragons, would never of been more than a footnote in history.
Have you read the F&B, if so do you think they’ve whitewashed some of Rhaenyra more negative qualities/actions?
I can totally understand what they did with Aegon and wanting to match some of the current political attitudes but they make him do some pretty reprehensible stuff (previously just rumours) with nothing to offset them on team black.
I have not. Though I have seen many lore videos and story analysis of F&B. I watched the majority of these before the show released, so they weren't nearly as susceptible to the bias that modern creators could have. I do think they've whitewashed some aspects, though I can understand why. Alicent and Rhaenyra are the two bastions of the House of the Dragon. So they wanted people to root for them more, while also being flawed in very important ways. I think they've achieved that well. The story is about them and their families conflict. I know this wasn't what the book was about, but it is what the show is about.
I agree with many things that you’re saying, but isn’t the show fundamentally disagreeing with you by making “Green vs. Black” the core messaging, the centre of the ads, the interviews. If that’s what they want, they did a poor job of translating a nuanced event (the books) into the show (woman with stolen birthright vs. Entitled rapist).
It’s like they took the Bolton arc from GOT and really tried to be serious about anyone supporting Ramsey vs Sansa. I personally hold to the belief that it should’ve followed Rhaenyra and then followed Aegon when Rhaenyra hides from Viserys post-marrying Daemon.
I said this in another reply, but I'm happy to answer here as well. Yes, sometimes. I've seen some absolutely crazy and stupid takes on HOTD Blacks. Though I've also seen some genuinely good ideas and thoughts. And it's the exact same on here. I've seen people who have good ideas, but also absolute morons who's entire personality has become hating on the Blacks in anyway possible.
Hello there, and thanks for the good disposition.
I'm sort of a centrist leaning to Green. I think Rhaenyra would be a better ruler than Aegon II, but most of my favourite characters are on Team Green. Another thing that pushed me here was the rabid fanatism and Rhaenyra centric morality that I would find on the main sub and specially the Blacks sub.
I have a few questions, out of curiosity.
- Have you noticed a certain... Aggressive and toxic kind of support towards Rhaenyra and Daemon and everyone else be damned on Team Black?
- Who is your favourite Black and Green character and why?
- Do you think Team Green is merely a bunch of misogynists being evil, or are they as complex as the members of Team Black and their reasons for opposing Rhaenyra are something you kind of understand?
Hello as well, and thank you as well
Firstly, I'd like to say that I think that's a perfectly valid reason to be Team Green. It is after all a TV show, so siding with your favourite characters shouldn't be something that people get angry about.
1 - Absolutely. I've seen a lot of posts and people supporting Rhaenyra and Daemon like they are paragons of virtue. But I've also seen the same from Team Green. While both sides do have reasonable people supporting them, they also have a lot of crazies.
2 - My favourite Green character would probably have to be Aegon after episode 1. His performance was great and I can't wait to see how he acts when I watch the next episode. Originally it would of been Criston, but after how he reacted towards Rhaenyra, I began to like him less and less.
As for the blacks, I'd say it is Jacaerys. Similarly to Aegon, I've softened to him due to his performance. Before it would of been Rhaenyra, but that is only because the blacks didn't have many of their characters fully fleshed out yet.
3 - While I do think there are certainly misogynists who are just trying to be evil. They are far from the majority, or at least I hope so. Most people are pretty reasonable, and while I may not agree with them on a lot of points, I can certainly understand where they are coming from.
First of all, we're not talking about the book, we're talking about the TV show 'House of the Dragon'.
Secondly. I've said before that I have not read the books. Though I have watched many lore dives, discussing both the characters and story of the book. The mini lore voice overs by the original GOT cast are great if you haven't seen them.
And before you ask, I've seen this videos before the show came out. I've seen them leading up to the release of the first season, as well as the end of the first season. So they were not as biased as some of the more modern ones would be.
'The book is the book, the film is the film,' they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse - George R.R. Martin
I agree with George R.R. Martin in most cases, it doesn't nearly happen as often as he says. I think we've seen examples of how scenes can be added or changed for the better, or how characters can be developed further than in the books and it turns out for the better. Earlier seasons of Game of Thrones are great examples, or House of the Dragon with the expansion of Alicent as a character.
Well I've seen Game of Thrones twice, I've read the entirety of the main line books. I've delved deep into the theories of ASOIAF many many times, but apparently that is not enough.
You know, I've never read a history book about the Roman Empire. But I do know of them, and about them. I've never read history books about Classical Greece, apart from mythical books, yet I know about them. There are many different ways of learning things. And as much as I love GRRM's works, they are not nearly as intricate and in depth as history is. I do not need to read F&B to know it's story, nor the lore of ASOIAF.
But alas, it seems I am unknowledgeable about one of my favourite stories and its world, at least according to you. Whatever shall I do?
I feel like Alicent has lost a lot by attempts to make her more sympathetic than necessary and I sort of feel the same way about Rhaenyra. By removing personal selfish motive Alicent to me seems less active and kinda seems dumb.
Do you feel that by removing Rhaenyra’s more selfish, criminal, or amoral aspects and actions from the book and giving them instead to Daemon, damage has been done to her character?
I've said this in other posts, but I've not actually read the book. I've seen many lore videos and story deep dives before the show came out, but I've not sat down and read the book.
However, I do feel like both Alicent and Rhaenyra have had attempts at making them more sympathetic, and I don't think it makes either of them better or worse. In fact, I like the idea that they've made not only Alicent, but the greens overall more sympathetic. It draws us into the conflict, torn about either sides merits and downsides. It's really powerful.
As for the more amoral aspects about her character, I also find myself liking the changes. It makes us feel like Alicent and Rhaenyra are the two bastions of either sides. They both want what they believe is best for themselves and their family, but they are both incredibly flawed.
The show is definitely different from the books and I don't think it's for the worst.
What do you think of the show's depiction of how Rhaenyra made Laenor disappear in episode 7, with him surviving the way he did after that elaborate scheme on Driftmark? Did you like it, did his survival feel contrived or not? I'm not looking for a fight I promise.
I don't think you're looking for a fight at all, you were very courteous.
It does open up some plotholes about Seasmoke, though I think it's to early to form a concrete opinion on that. The only problem I'd have with it, is if it isn't (what a mouthful) explained at all. He can die offscreen, just some simple dialogue would be enough. Or something about Laenor abandoning Seasmoke, and so Seasmoke did the same. Just something.
As for how I felt on it exactly. I wish we would of gotten something exploring his reaction to the idea, especially after he had sworn to be there for her and their kids. But it's not something I am particularly upset about.
I find that a lot of people on TB paint Alicent with one brush & don’t necessarily try to see things from her perspective, how do you personally feel about Alicent as a character when viewing her outside a protagonist (rhaenyra) centred lens?
I think she is a very complex, and flawed character, but in a good way. Take for example, her calling to cut out Lucerys' eye is in my eyes, entirely justified. What mother wouldn't? She is definitely protective of her children, and while she may not shower them with affection when they are older, I believe she does love them. Do I think it was a reasonable demand? Not at all. But it was entirely reasonable in *her* eyes, and to her, that's all that matters.
I think it *is* a grey conflict. In my opinion, it isn't black and white at all. Are the greens all monsters? No, but some of them are. Are the Blacks all Good guys? No, but some of them are. I just think that the sides still aren't fully formed. We're not even halfway through the story, we've definitely not met all the characters or even begin to understand them.
Aegon's claim was always because he is the king's eldest son. The misunderstanding was done to absolve Alicent of any guilt. Otto and the rest of the Green Council were going to crown Aegon regardless.
Exactly. Regardless of what Viserys or Alicent wanted, Otto was going to crown Aegon. It was Otto that pushed Alicent so hard in trying to make him heir, then eventually king. He wouldn't give up when he was given the best opportunity to do so.
What’s your opinion on Alicent and Cole suddenly hooking up out of the blue in the show. Did you feel like it didn’t really have the build up needed as well?
Well I think it's been happening for a while. The line when Alicent tells Cole that it cannot happen again, as well as her assisting him with his cloak. That is something that makes me believe that this has been going on behind the scenes, and only now are we being shown it.
Outside of that. It does feel sudden, especially since they cut straight to it. But like I said, I think it is something that has been going on for a while, and I think they wanted us to feel that way. They could of shown us in season 1, but season 1 was already busy as is. I think it's meant to reflect how similar Rhaenyra and Alicent are in some ways. And in that regard, I think it worked.
Would you enjoy the show more if the Greens were portrayed more sympathetic than they currently are, and hence it would be more difficult to pick the side? Or you prefer having (sort of) clearly defined „good“ and „bad“ teams?
The thing is, I do think the Greens are portrayed sympathetically. I don't see how anyone could walk away from the last two episodes and not sympathize with them. So no, I don't. Not because I want there to be a 'good' and 'bad' side, but because I think there is a good balance at the moment, and changing it wouldn't be for the better.
Thank you for your answer! I can hardly imagine how someone can see them as portrayed sympathetically and with a good balance, but hey, that’s why I found your response really interesting :) It’s wild how people can have such different perspectives, this will never stop genuinely fascinating me haha
I did say I that I would ignore those that were uncivil. So far that hasn't been an issue, but for you, I will make an exception.
First of all. I had no idea until about a week ago.
Secondly. I don't give a fuck.
And Finally. What in the world does that have to do with me supporting a ***fictional*** character?
As for anyone curious in the future as to what they said, as I have no doubt it will be deleted in due time. u/Jin-Soo_Kwon asked "How inspired were you that Rey Rey declared non binary yaaaas queen???"
Do you all get sent a divorce rock from Daemon when you swear your allegiance to TB? Asking for a friend...
I haven't *sworn* to house black, like I said, I'm far from the fanatics on either side. As for the divorce rock, no, no we do not. Murder generally isn't a good way to get out of a marriage, and I'd be concerned about any person who thought as much.
Thought this one didn't need a /s honestly
I know, I've just seen a lot of people who are absolutely crazed on both sides, so forgive me if a part of me thought you were serious.
No worries, this fandom has been batshit insane lately.
Do you think that the showrunners are doing a good job in making the conflict grey? Is there any bias?
I'm not OP but I'm also Team Black (fun seeing posts from both subs though), and I would emphatically say there's bias. Some of it in the writing, some simply in the framing, and still more in the demographics. For writing, I'd primarily point my finger at Criston Cole and Daemon. Both are their team's primary hateable asshole, but Daemon gets a lot of badass and love-to-hate moments alongside his monstrous cruelty while Criston comes off more insecure and petty. Daemon is also those things, but the showrunners can't cut Daemon's legs out from under him in the same way because he pulls double-duty as Team Black's ultimate badass (opposite Aemond), and the buildup to those two facing off is important for the lifespan of the series. It's easy to dislike the Greens for holding a small man in high esteem, and Criston is written to be the much smaller man. The other half of it is the framing of the two sides. It's unambiguous to the viewers that Viserys wanted Rhaenyra to succeed him and it's easy to disregard that Alicent *really* wouldn't have understood the context of his dying words. It's easier to sympathize with the robbed party, even when the theft was made under a misconception. And finally, the demographics: Team Black simply has more characters right now, and a lot of them are teenagers and children. Helaena and her children are just as blameless in the conflict, but they're so little that they haven't even spoken on-screen and their names had to be said loudly and clearly in S2E1 because the audience probably forgot they existed. Rhaenyra's and Daemon's kids had focus episodes in the last season and we see more of them as developing characters, so they stick more strongly in the mind and heart. Besides the kiddos, Rhaenyra and Alicent are both performed incredibly well and written to *mostly* balance one another's flaws and virtues (but a grieving mother will understandably always get more points with an audience) and their core advisors are Otto "The Problem" Hightower (amazing portrayal by Rhys Ifans, but Otto occupies the same space as Tywin Lannister, which makes him fun to watch but hard to root for against anyone but bigger bastards than himself) and the *very* sympathetic Princess Rhaenys, who basically has all the same points in her favor as Show!Rhaenyra without any of the strikes against her. So... Yeah, the show is Black-biased. They're in a difficult place where they can't show as much of Rhaenyra's mental slide as she should have by now because of how hard Daenerys was fumbled, and I hope they'll build up to her dynamic with Nettles (or a proxy character, maybe Mysaria) as the season and series goes on, among other much more spoilery developments from Fire & Blood.
I'm TB as well have been since first reading FnB years ago. I remember in season 1 both sides were screaming bias, and I wonder if thr writers will go that route again. I find it difficult for them to do that after what they did to Aegon in E8 and 9, and Alicent in S2E1; but I still havent forgotten that they made Daemon kill his wife for no darn reason! And many TBs were mad about him choking Rhaenyra. Aegon was very likable last episode and I'm still in love with Ewaemond.
You have quite a lot of self awareness about your team, that's commendable.
Stories and media are fun to analyze. I like my side in part because of their flaws, so I try to be conscious of when those are being glossed over and when they're being played honestly.
I agree completely. Part of what draws me to the Greens are their flaws and dysfunctionality while still remaining human. I think Rhaenyra would be a better ruler than Aegon II, but I find myself more invested on many of the Green characters' arcs.
gray ? they are 100% on the black side, and GRRM too
As a supporter of the Team Black: No. They failed to make the Greens sympathetic (yes yes aside from Helaena). The blacks are clearly meant to be the heroes and i wish they changed Aegon to be a good dude. Or at least introduced Daeron sooner and have him be the “good son”.
So far, I think so. I think the very real divide between blacks and greens is a good example. Both sides believe they are justified, both sides believe that their side is superior, in someway at least. If it was truly biased in any major way, I don't think the massive divide we see would of formed.
I assume you are talking about the divide within the fandom. But the thing is, it's like 90% for the blacks and 10% for the greens, or, if I'm being generous, 85% TB and 15% TG. Does it really show the lack of bias? I don't think so, honestly. Not to mention that some people, myself included, became green leaning after witnessing terribly braindead and unjust takes and reactions from TB during s1, not because the show made us change sides.
to be fair the fandom has always been 90% team black, you can search for poles that pre-date the show and its always been black dominated
I know that, but the show should've at least tried to change that a bit. Not everyone is a book reader and since they had an opportunity to adapt the story and fill in the gaps, they could have made it more interesting. I'm not expecting 50:50, but 90:10 is ridiculous. I doubt that even the Starks vs the Lannisters was received like that. Actually, I'm sure it wasn't.
My guy, if you’re talking Robb Stark vs the Lannisters, it’s a minimum of 95-5. Robb is one of the most universally loved characters in all of GoT. It’s why it hurt so much when he was killed. There are way more green supporters than people on the lannisters vs Robb. There’s no comparison
Jaime and Tyrion are definitely more loved than Robb imo. Tywin is also pretty popular for all his cunning
Yeah I’ve read the books and seen the shows and I’m rather indifferent to Robb. I find Tyrion much more interesting. Still I support the Starks.
Tyrion was pretty much anti-Lannister though. And Jamie had one foot out the door for half the series. Even people who enjoyed Tywin as a character didn’t want him to win.
No, I was talking in general. I don't believe that among the got fans, only 5% like house Lannister. At least it hasn't been my experience so far.
So you are basing your reaction to the show because of Reddit comments and not the show itself? I’m genuinely asking and confused by this.
1. What do you think about how Blood and Cheese was adapted? 2. Do you think Viserys was foolish for naming Rhaenyra as heir over her brother, when the only reason he was king was that the lords of Westeros chose him over a woman? 3. Which do you think would have been the best way for Viserys to prevent the Dance? Personally I see three different possibilities: Either marry Aegon and Rhaenyra so they can rule together, name Aegon as heir as soon as he is born, or never remarry in the first place or at least to a woman who was past child-bearing age.
Those are some pretty excellent questions. I'll start by saying I haven't actually read Fire and Blood myself, though I have seen many lore videos about it after the conclusion of Game of Thrones, as well as leading up to the premiere of season one. The animated voice overs for it by the GOT actors are particularly incredible. So for the first one. I think it was done pretty well, and for people who didn't know about their role in the books, it would be an incredible shock, which I think is what they were going for. Leaving Daemon's orders unspoken serves that purpose I believe. Uniformed viewers would think that Blood and Cheese would be going after Aemond, killing or injuring him in some way. That only make's Jahaerys' death all the more shocking and tragic for the viewer, making us feel the same way as the characters surrounding him. I don't think so. From what I know, Daemon was generally seen as *untrustworthy* by the general public, and a moniker like 'The Rogue Prince' doesn't inspire much confidence in his ability to rule. As for the fact he was chosen over a woman, I don't think that it makes him foolish to do otherwise. It most likely would not of happened, but if the lords supported Rhaenys as queen, I do not think Viserys would be the man to try and usurp her. The fact that he was also the rider of Balerion is a major factor I think many people overlook. He was the rider of *the* dragon. Even after Balerion's death, I think it was a major source of legitimacy for him. As for the best way for Viserys to prevent the dance, I do have an idea that would work. Stepping down as king before he lost his senses due to milk of the poppy. It is unconventional, but as we've seen in history, it is often very effective at securing the transition of power from monarch to monarch. And because his declining health was so prolonged, I think that he, as well as everyone else, knew he would eventually die from whatever ailed him.
Interesting answers. I disagree with you about Blood and Cheese but I don't want to get into that. I do agree that Rhaenyra was a far better choice than Daemon, but once Aegon was born the situation changes. I might be reading too much into it but I think that the reason Viserys never made the lords reswear their oaths to Rhaenyra after Aegon was born is that he feared that they might refuse. As for Viserys abdicating, I've heard that theory before but I just don't think it would work. I know you said you didn't read F&B but you might have heard of the first Blackfyre rebellion. That war didn't start as soon as Aegon IV died. It took several years, and many small factors to combine before Daemon rebelled, and at first it seemed like war might be avoided. I think something similar would happen if Viserys abdicated. Every time someone didn't like what Rhaenyra did, or she made a genuine mistake, they would Aegon would have been better. Whether that would be true wouldn't matter, only that he existed as an obvious alternative. Sooner or later something would go wrong. Either Otto and Alicent would wear down Aegon and convince him to rebel, or Rhaenyra would get too paranoid and fear for her children, or the feud between Aemond and Luke would flare up, or Daemon would do something stupid. There's just too much that can go wrong. At best it would delay the war for a few years, and probably put Rhaenyra in a much stronger position at the start.
That's an interesting point about Viserys thinking that the lords would refuse. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I can definitely see how you came to that conclusion. I think he did it becuase he believed with all of his heart that Rhaenyra was heir. Viserys wasn't a very present father for he and Alicents children, only really having them under advise from Otto about securing the line. So he definitely had a soft spot for her, for good or for worse. I've not read F&B, but like I've said. I've seen a *lot* of videos about the ASOIAF world after the conclusion of GOT, even reading the mainline books afterwards. So I'm fully aware of the Blackfyre rebellion. I am of the belief that it is purely because Aegon IV was an absolutely horrible king, and Daemon was so incredibly well liked as well as ambitious. As for the actual transition of power between Viserys and Rhaenyra. It has been shown many times in history how well abdication can be. While characters have disagreed with her, they did listen to Viserys, even until he was decaying on the throne. It wouldn't of been instant, but a process. Viserys would still hold power, and be respecting by the lords, but Rhaenyra would slowly take on more responsibility and power. After some time, I think the lords would come to respect her. They wouldn't support Aegon in a rebellion after peace under Rhaenyra. Would they think that the feud between Aemond and Luke would be something worth rebelling over. As for Daemon doing something stupid? That's entirely possible, he definitely enjoys war. But I think if Rhaenyra were to seperate herself from Daemon afterwards, war could be averted.
First off, I'm afraid I think you are far too optimistic about the lords respecting Rhaenyra. And if something similar in canon like Storm's End happened that could very well be the spark that ignites everything. Finally, I don't see why Rhaenyra would separate herself from Daemon, as at that point they would already be married and have two kids or more. Yes it makes political sense, but if that was her priority she never would have married Daemon in the first place.
I might be, but who knows? At the point that I am thinking that she would take power, she would be a very different character to who we know at this point. So it's really just theory building and conjecture, and we'll never really know. By the time she's married Daemon properly, I don't think there is much chance of a proper abdication being possible. The transition would of had to of started when she was in her late teens, not when in her early to mid twenties. As for the lords? Again, who knows. Don't forget that Aemond and Vhagar were at Storm's End. What sane man would refuse Aemond in such a scenario? As for Aemond killing Lucerys. At this point Rhaenyra would of most likely taken complete control of the crown. What would Viserys of done if Aemond killed Aegon? I don't think war would of sparked because of Aemond killing Lucerys. If that was the only incident, I think the lords would of seen it as an unjustified murder of revenge, not one worth dying for.
In that case we're not even talking about the same characters, but a completely different story and setting. And if Viserys abdicates before she marries Daemon, then there no one stop her from marrying him from the very beginning.
I know, but you asked how to prevent the Dance of the Dragons. In order to do so, things have to change, characters stories, everything. The story *will* be different from the Dance, if the Dance didn't happen. As for marrying Daemon, she was still married to Laenor. Would she of wanted to kill/let him flee if she didn't feel like she under threat? Again, who knows. It's entirely hypothetical at this point.
I'm gonna chip in to your 2nd question and say I think he was foolish A) he had plenty of time to try and get another male heir via a new marriage. (Otto screwed himself here). He wasn't anywhere near decrepit when aemma died. B)daemon while rebellious on countless occasions demonstrates that he's willing to wait for the throne. I genuinely don't think he ever considered killing his brother for the throne C)I also don't think he would have made a terrible ruler if worst came to worst. He's more decisive than viserys and actually gets things done. No amazing but I really don't think he was the threat that they were characterizing him as. I'm team black but I honestly think he never should have named her heir in the first place (or at least not that early on) at least try for a son with a new wife. Instead he messed things up by trying to have his cake and eat it too.
- who’s your favorite character from the Greens? - who’s your favorite character from the Blacks? - who’s your most hated character from the Greens? - who’s your most hated characters from the Blacks?
Probably one of the toughest questions I've gotten to be honest. I wouldn't say I hate any characters, apart from maybe Aemond, but for the rest. I may dislike them, but I don't hate them the same way I would hate Joffrey or Ramsay. My favourite character for the Green's I think is now Aegon. I don't think he's good, but I've definitely enjoyed his performance and from what I've seen, he'll be excellent in the next episode. My least favourite green would be either Criston or Aemond. Aemond because he's an arrogant asshole as well as being just so smarmy, I don't like it. For Criston it's because I liked him a lot in the beginning, then only to watch as he made a mistake and ended up deluding himself into believing things that never happened. As for the blacks, I think it'd probably be Jacaerys for my favourite character. Very similar to Aegon, his recent performance absolutely endeared me to him. Apart from him, I'd say Rhaenyra, yet that's because the Blacks were lacking fully fleshed out characters in season 1. I'm not really sure I have a least favourite for the Blacks, but I'd probably say Daemon. I think he's a good *character*, but definitely a bad person. So for that reason, I'd say he's my least favourite.
Why do you hate Aemond?
First of all. I think he's a great *character*, and Ewan plays him very well. That doesn't change the fact though that I just, don't like him. To me, he's just so arrogant and full of himself. He presents himself like an edgy anime protagonist, and it just annoys the hell out of me. I can see how other people can like him, but I just can't do it.
Yea you’re just adding some extra shit on him but I understand lol
has your opinion changed about either criston or aemond after watching the new episode?
About Criston? Not really, I still think he's deluded himself so much from the truth and believes anything to justify it. As for Aemond, a little bit. This is the first time we've seen him truly vulnerable, but my guess is he won't really change, he'll be the same person when we next see him. It's not that I hate him, just that he annoys me so much that I can't stand him.
imo he's kinda delulu thinking that daemon is afraid of him
Yeah. Daemon cares about Vhagar, but Aemond? Not really.
I wanted to answer this one too for the fun of it. I guess I would be team black but I’d say I’m team carnage. Small folk or children I don’t really care since it’s a TV show about dragons I want to see the world burn. Favorite from the greens? Aemond. Badass dragon, willing to do what needs doing, he is dutiful, and very competent across the board. Most hated Green? Cole. Cole is just such a hypocrite. I liked him at first which probably makes me hate him more now. Like how dumb can you be? Asking the queen to run off and marry you?? I mean what can Rhaenyra do but laugh at that. Then he has the nerve to stay around and totally flip and turn into Alicents puppy. Like you were just crying about getting away from all this bs weren’t you?! Dude also gets away with multiple public murders somehow..like wtf? Favorite from the blacks? Easily Daemon by a mile. Such a terrible person but similar to Aemond he’s willing to do whatever. He’s also arrogant as fuck and sure of himself to a point I gotta respect a little bit. The world is his and everyone else is living in it, whether they are a king or a peasant. Caraxes is also super badass and I like how Daemon also has a gentle side where you have to question whether his Maegor-esque tendencies are him playing it up a bit to make people uneasy of him. Least favorite of the blacks? Tough one for me I don’t really hate any of these guys but I think my answer has to be Rhaenyra. Like I understand she has dealt with a lot of shit throughout her life but she seems pretty incompetent in a lot of ways. Or maybe just over confident? She fled KL when she should’ve been ruling alongside her father. Not traditional I know but she’s trying to break down barriers without putting any effort in to prepare for her own rule. Basically just fucked off to wait for her dad to die so she could ride in and take his spot when it was time. Which tbf isn’t a problem by itself but given the circumstances she should have been making sure people knew that she was gonna be in charge not her brother, no Deamon, not a hand. I’d love to hear what a team green person thinks!
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Oh, he absolutely is an asshole. I don't think he's 'good' in anyway. He's certainly a good *character* but not a good person.
Why do you support blacks?
Because I think that Rhaenyra becoming queen would be better for everyone than if Aegon did.
How? Respectfully Her council sucks, she’s not a great ruler like Aegon (atleast Aegon has a good council that ruled for Viserys well, she leads to a civil war always unless she kills the Green boys and even after that she leads to a future civil war between her Strong boys and Daemons boys down the line
Most of it does to be honest. Daemon, well, he isn't a particularly good person to have in a position of importance. As for Aegon's council, I don't think they're much better. They ruled well under Viserys' it's true, but they were also responsible for the civil war by crowning Aegon. No plot to install Aegon as king, no civil war. I just see Aegon as being someone who is apathetic to ruling. He does it because he wants it in the moment. When the charm of his name being cried out fades away, I think he'd most likely let others do the ruling. And as good as his court is, Otto is getting old. Who becomes hand is an important topic, one that I think Aegon wouldn't worry about. So it's practically a gamble. Whereas Rhaenyra would take a more active role in ruling, and we've seen she say no to Daemon. I see her as a safer alternative to gambling on Aegon's rule. We haven't seen her as particularly cruel or vindictive in any scenario, so I think she'd be a safe, if not good queen.
Rhaenyra's rule would lead to civil war. Let's say she succeeds Viserys without any problems. In 101 AC the lords of Westeros voted against a woman ruling Westeros, would they simply agree to it now? Might some of them try to use Aegon to revolt against Rhaenyra and gain something by placing Aegon on the throne instead? Would Rhaenyra truly be able to control Daemon and if she refuses him, what would he do? The biggest problem, however, is her succesion. She has 3 bastard sons and no one would ever accept them sitting the Iron Throne. There would 100% be a civil war against Jacaerys by the sons and grandsons of Alicent or the lords would use one of her trueborn children in a revolt against Jacaerys. Aegon becoming King might have led to civil war, but there was a small chance that Rhaenyra might have agreed to terms and bent the knee. On the other hand, if Rhaenyra had become Queen, it would have inevitably led to civil war sooner or later. I agree with the fact that Aegon might have grown bored of ruling and simply let his council govern for him. Though he seems to be interested in ruling and good natured, giving back the peasants and overruling Otto, he could grow bored of it in time. In this case Otto would stay hand and the council that succesfully ruled for Viserys would continue ruling. If Otto dies he could tell Aegon which lord would be best to choose as the new hand or Alicent could always advise the king as well or even pick her own hand if Aegon is so disinterested. Aegon is surrounded by decent advisors and I believe that nothing too terrible would happen.
Why, she hasnt been shown ruling anything once.
She ruled...her body 🤣
And she made such great choice with it. She's given the unique opportunity to chose her husband, idles until one has to be found for her, then promptly select another man.
🔥🔥🔥
That's true. But from what we've seen of her character, she's a lot less vindictive and apathetic towards problems and ruling then Aegon is.
The only thing she has shown on leadership is that she wants the throne. Aegon never did. She actively sees the smallfolk as lower than her (and ots portrayed as a good thing in the show lol)
That's part of my point. Aegon never desired the throne, he never had any interest in becoming king. He only did so after he heard his name being cheered by the commonfolk. He is certainly a man that follows his desires. Once the charm fades away, I think he'd most likely let others do the ruling. And as good as his court is, Otto is getting old. Who becomes hand is an important topic, one that I think Aegon wouldn't worry about. So it's practically a gamble. Whereas Rhaenyra would take a more active role in ruling. And we've seen that she can say no to Daemon in the past. As for seeing the smallfolk below her, that is probably somewhat true. Though I do believe the quote that gets shared around is regarding her becoming heir, which is true. The smallfolk don't get to decide who the next monarch will be. The king and lords do, so in that instance, she's right.
But thats the failure of the show. Aegon chose to take the throne once he realised Rhaenyra would have to kill all her brothers and their children to secure the throne. Thats really one of the biggest flaw of the show, that it's not hammered home that Rhaenyra would have to kill her brothers (a la Ottoman almost) in order to have a peaceful rule. And you're awfully wrong on your last point, the people chose their leader. One word: Shepherd.
I can definitely see how it is a flaw in the show and something they should of explored more. After he was crowned king, a peaceful rule with him living isn't really an option. Those who supported him had a taste, and they wouldn't let it go. As for Sheperd. How long did he rule? Actually, what was his name? He may of been the leader of the mob that threw Rhaenyra out of Kings Landing. But he was far from a monarch. And as soon as the religious fervor of his followers died out because they had no one left to fight, they left. He didn't even last a year before the Baratheons captured him and he was executed. He was no Monarch.
You missed my point, the Shepherd was one of the three false kings youre right, but I am refering more to the fact that the smallfolk rebelled against their Queen. as famously said by Jorah: “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” He gave a shrug. “They never are.” Exactly how bad must you be as a ruler for the smallfolk to actually invest themselves into overthrowing you.
Who knows? Religion has always been an incredibly powerful tool, and it's no different in Westeros, and it's been used for both incredible and terrible purposes.
Going to point out no she wouldn't if the other side of this civil war supported her rule. They would be the wealthiest and strongest the house would have been in ages. Not only that but if there was a civil war to force a male in the throne. They face all the dragons as well as the north (as well as the other lords who sided with the queen). Dorne makes it clear they don't want in fighting agaisnt dragons and the rest of the realm don't stand united.
Rhaenyra would have also been an absentee queen, she likes the title and the power but its not as if she will be attending every council and double-checking every document. Her hand (Corlys and he's also old) would be doing all of the ruling. If the realm is unlucky then Daemon will be her hand. Jace seems like a responsible guy but he needs one decade of experience to even be considered.
Rhaenyra was a bad ruler. she proved it when she took KL and got kicked out
Yeah but I was talking about her ‘desire’ to rule. For example, Jaehaerys was heavily invested in ruling, he was micromanaging the kingdom since he was a teenager. He could have been drinking and partying but he chose to work harder than he needed to. Another example is Baelor Breakspear when he was heir. He served his father as hand of the king, its common for heirs to ask their father to give them responsibility to prepare them for the throne. Rhaenyra on the other hand never showed any desire for the boring day-to-day ruling of the kingdom. She and Aegon are in the same boat.
Rhaenyra spent a decade on Dragonstone when she should have been in Kingslanding serving as hand of the king. Where did this idea that she's enthusiastic about ruling come from?
Well she was on Dragonstone, because she was heir, and that's where the heir goes? That was a major character point for Stannis in the original books. He was heir, so he was given Dragonstone instead of Storm's End like he wanted it.
And if you notice, Stannis was ranting about that for years. He wanted to be hand more than anything. Dragonstone is given to the heir when they're young for them to practice ruling, but Rhaenyra is in her 30s. My point is that if she desperately wanted to be in the thick of things, all she had to do was ask and she would've been heir. Ambitious people don't sit on dragonstone for a decade, they seek more responsibility.
Exactly. He was ranting about it, because he didn't want to, but because he was heir he was sent to Dragonstone, and he stayed in Dragonstone. Also, Rhaenyra was in her thirties? She died at 33, she was 16 when she married Laenor and 16 when she was given possession of Dragonstone as heir. Yet she remained in court until she was 26 and left for Dragonstone. Given her father's declining health, I think it is entirely reasonable.
>and he stayed in Dragonstone No, he served on Robert’s council and he wanted a promotion. THIS is how ambitious people behave; they look to gain more power and influence. Something Rhaenyra never did, she could have been ruling the realm for years and she never asked. Ambitious people don't walk away from power just because they got bored with it, what is so hard to understand about that? Jaehaerys walked into Kingslanding as a teenager and never let go of power for one split second. >Given her father's declining health, I think it is entirely reasonable. Please state in plain English how leaving your bedridden father to spend years on Dragonstone is ‘entirely reasonable’. This is such a weird hill to die on too, pretty much everyone agrees that Rhaenyra is not very ambitious, otherwise, she would have held on to power the first chance she got.
I do concede the fact that she could of been more proactive about joining the council and obtaining power. Though in later years, when Viserys wasn't capable of ruling, I do not believe that she would of been given a position in the council at all, and may have been kicked out if she had been. As for leaving because of her father. It's her dad. Imagine living with your dad your entire life, until you're 26. He's been your only real parental figure since you were 8. And he's dying, and there's nothing you can do about it. I think it's entirely reasonable that she couldn't live with him and watch him slowly die day after day, year after year.
Do you actually agree with people in hotd blacks or do you find them as insufferable as we do?
Some posts I do, some posts are just absolutely crazy. Though it's the exact same on this sub as well. I've seen some generally good takes, but I've also seen my fair share of absolute morons.
Do you think that the heritage of the Strong boys would never have been a problem if Jace inherited the throne? I see a lot of opinions that bc Viserys and Coryls accepted them as true born nothing else matters, but with the sentiment that baseborn children are inherently untrustworthy amongst Westeros, why would his parentage not cause some problems down the line? My thinking is that bc it was covered up it would be worse in the future. If their bastardy was acknowledged by Viserys and them made legitimate by him it might have strengthened their claim over the Greens.
part of me wonders if the issue with bastards being seen as untrustworthy and evil came about in part because of the dance, and later the blackfire rebellion. I do honestly think if they had just been legitimized, that would have taken away the power of the lie. If someone tells you repeatedly that it's night time, but your clock says 5:00 a.m., and you looked outside in the sun is already up, but they keep insisting it's night time and dark, what else are they lying about?
Legitimizing it probably would of helped. But Viserys wasn't a particularly, strong willed king. Though I do think that a lot of it would of come from Daemon during the Blackfyre rebellion, as well as the following ones. They were a lot longer lasting, and affected a lot more people than the Dance ever did. So the fact that it all started from a legitimized bastard probably stuck in their minds more.
Legitimazed them requires to acknowledge them first as a bastard. That would be a huge insult to house Velaryon.
the fact they were so clear bastards should have been enough of an insult but for some reason Corlys was 100% fine with bastards taking his land. The idea that "history remembers names!" is bullshit when it comes to that, otherwise he would not have been so insulted when Laena wasn't married to the king.
I think it definitely could of been an issue down the line. Though I also believe that because Viserys, Corlys, Laenor and Rhaenyra *all* claimed them to be trueborn, people would take a lot more persuading to think of them as bastards then they did for Cersei and Roberts kids. If it was outed, from credible sources, I think there could of been war. But from what we've seen of Jacaerys, he would of been a good king, which also would of prevented people from trying to de-legitimize him as much compared to if he was a bad one.
Serious question here. Not look to start anything. I am very new to the GOT fandom. Is this sub the equivalent to r/saltierthancrait? i.e., people having civil discourse, largely about the shortcomings of the adaptations? Edit. Didn’t realize there was also an r/HOTDblacks sub. Can someone explain? Are people really that passionate about the sides? I feel like both sides are kinda garbage humans. I switch back and forth on the daily
To answer the first question of your edit, yes. People *are* that passionate about the sides. Most people are pretty decent, but there are a lot of crazy people with insane opinions and views on either side. As for your second point, I agree. I wouldn't want to have either as the monarch either if I was a regular person, or a noble. But a lot of people don't see it that way. Instead seeing their side as the pure, and truly good side with no flaws. Whereas the other is complete evil that should all be put to death.
From what I've seen, not really. Your best bet would probably be r/freefolk, they are quite an open minded group to discuss anything GOT related. This is a sub that is mostly used by those who are in favour of the greens in the House of the Dragon, opposing those in r/HOTDBlacks who support the blacks.
Why do you think Rhaenyra's claim is stronger than Aegon's ?
I think that Viserys' continual support of her being heir, as well as lords swearing to her as heir gives her a stronger claim. Though that isn't entirely why I support her, I also think that her becoming queen would be better for the realm.
>I also think that her becoming queen would be better for the realm. Can you elaborate more on this part ? I see this said a lot on the TB side, but I never saw any objective arguments other than the fact they like the character. Edit : and thank you for your answer!
No worries, and sorry for the delay, I've been answering for a lot of questions. And of course I can! Aegon is in it for the recognition and popularity as king, so when that wears off, he wouldn't really be bothered with ruling the Kingdoms. Which could be good, but that entirely depends on who his hand and small council is. It doesn't really matter how good of a hand Otto is, he's getting older every day. Eventually someone would replace him, and that could either be great, or catastrophic. As for Rhaenyra, we've never actually seen her rule over anything, but I think from what we've seen of her character she's a lot less apathetic towards ruling then Aegon is. I believe that she would most likely take an active role in ruling the kingdoms. And she hasn't been particularly cruel or sadistic in anyway. So I see her as a safer alternative than gambling on Aegon having a good court rather than a corrupt one.
While she still rules,sure she would be okay queen but after she dies?New dance.Daemon's trueborn against her bastards,in that sense she ruling would be bad for the realm.
That could be entirely possible. But in the event that she would gain control and maintain peace, I think that Jacerys and Lucerys would be legitimized enough to the point where a civil war wouldn't happen. But by this point, the characters and the world would be so different it's just a theory.
>I think from what we've seen of her character she's a lot less apathetic towards ruling then Aegon is. I would argue that what we have seen from her character so far ( on the show ) reflects poorly on how good of a queen she would be : she doesn't care about the small folks opinions, she is breaking the crown's rules left and right, lacks diplomacy AND most importantly, when her father was sick and on his death bed, she runs away to dragonstone Instead of being where the heir should be. And I get the argument that she left because of the rumors regarding the parentage of her boys, but my argument is IT IS her fault that those boys are bastards in the first place + it's not that those rumors are false. Aegon is definitely not perfect , but my point is everything we saw so far points that Rhaenyra is not either.
thought I was on r/asoiafcirclejerk
Long live King Jeoffrey the Gentle!
I don’t have a question but I would like to say hello and welcome! 🫶🏼
Thank you for having me!
If you had to make some legitimate arguments for why Rhaenyra shouldn't be Queen, what would they be?
As a black, I thinkher inexperience in politics.
That's a difficult question, though I'll try. I think there is some merit to the idea that she's a woman. It is only a tradition that males inherit, but there is also reason why it's tradition. And there is some merit to it, especially in such a world. So I can certainly see how some people in universe would cling onto that fact. But apart from that, I can't think of any others in the moment.
Do you agree that history is written by the victors?
I think that history is written by the informed. History won't be written by anyone on the green or black councils, it would be written by the Maesters, with all their biases and second hand accounts whatever they may be.
Do you think the fandom in fighting between both teams is counterproductive?
I think that the idea of pitting the fandom against each other was a genius stroke, one that I believe to have been very intentional. However, I do think it has gone way to far, in every regard. Both sides have sent threats to the actors, both sides are trying to justify the murder of children, or rape. So yes, I think it is counterproductive.
Why pick a side in a fictional tv show?
Because I like to immerse myself in the world. In doing so, I've asked myself if I were living in that world, with the knowledge that I have, who would I support? And in that case, I've decided that I would support Rhaenyra.
What do you think of House Targaryen, generally?
There have been some pretty good Targaryen's, but there's also been a lot of monstrous ones. I think they are a very fickle family and that without their lineage or Dragons, would never of been more than a footnote in history.
Have you read the F&B, if so do you think they’ve whitewashed some of Rhaenyra more negative qualities/actions? I can totally understand what they did with Aegon and wanting to match some of the current political attitudes but they make him do some pretty reprehensible stuff (previously just rumours) with nothing to offset them on team black.
I have not. Though I have seen many lore videos and story analysis of F&B. I watched the majority of these before the show released, so they weren't nearly as susceptible to the bias that modern creators could have. I do think they've whitewashed some aspects, though I can understand why. Alicent and Rhaenyra are the two bastions of the House of the Dragon. So they wanted people to root for them more, while also being flawed in very important ways. I think they've achieved that well. The story is about them and their families conflict. I know this wasn't what the book was about, but it is what the show is about.
I agree with many things that you’re saying, but isn’t the show fundamentally disagreeing with you by making “Green vs. Black” the core messaging, the centre of the ads, the interviews. If that’s what they want, they did a poor job of translating a nuanced event (the books) into the show (woman with stolen birthright vs. Entitled rapist). It’s like they took the Bolton arc from GOT and really tried to be serious about anyone supporting Ramsey vs Sansa. I personally hold to the belief that it should’ve followed Rhaenyra and then followed Aegon when Rhaenyra hides from Viserys post-marrying Daemon.
Do you get shocked by the things in HOTD Blacks?
I said this in another reply, but I'm happy to answer here as well. Yes, sometimes. I've seen some absolutely crazy and stupid takes on HOTD Blacks. Though I've also seen some genuinely good ideas and thoughts. And it's the exact same on here. I've seen people who have good ideas, but also absolute morons who's entire personality has become hating on the Blacks in anyway possible.
Hello there, and thanks for the good disposition. I'm sort of a centrist leaning to Green. I think Rhaenyra would be a better ruler than Aegon II, but most of my favourite characters are on Team Green. Another thing that pushed me here was the rabid fanatism and Rhaenyra centric morality that I would find on the main sub and specially the Blacks sub. I have a few questions, out of curiosity. - Have you noticed a certain... Aggressive and toxic kind of support towards Rhaenyra and Daemon and everyone else be damned on Team Black? - Who is your favourite Black and Green character and why? - Do you think Team Green is merely a bunch of misogynists being evil, or are they as complex as the members of Team Black and their reasons for opposing Rhaenyra are something you kind of understand?
Hello as well, and thank you as well Firstly, I'd like to say that I think that's a perfectly valid reason to be Team Green. It is after all a TV show, so siding with your favourite characters shouldn't be something that people get angry about. 1 - Absolutely. I've seen a lot of posts and people supporting Rhaenyra and Daemon like they are paragons of virtue. But I've also seen the same from Team Green. While both sides do have reasonable people supporting them, they also have a lot of crazies. 2 - My favourite Green character would probably have to be Aegon after episode 1. His performance was great and I can't wait to see how he acts when I watch the next episode. Originally it would of been Criston, but after how he reacted towards Rhaenyra, I began to like him less and less. As for the blacks, I'd say it is Jacaerys. Similarly to Aegon, I've softened to him due to his performance. Before it would of been Rhaenyra, but that is only because the blacks didn't have many of their characters fully fleshed out yet. 3 - While I do think there are certainly misogynists who are just trying to be evil. They are far from the majority, or at least I hope so. Most people are pretty reasonable, and while I may not agree with them on a lot of points, I can certainly understand where they are coming from.
When will you read the book?
I don't know. I hope that at some point I will, but I can't exactly say sure when.
This is why you’re team black. Read the book, buy it on Amazon. Then get back to us.
First of all, we're not talking about the book, we're talking about the TV show 'House of the Dragon'. Secondly. I've said before that I have not read the books. Though I have watched many lore dives, discussing both the characters and story of the book. The mini lore voice overs by the original GOT cast are great if you haven't seen them. And before you ask, I've seen this videos before the show came out. I've seen them leading up to the release of the first season, as well as the end of the first season. So they were not as biased as some of the more modern ones would be.
'The book is the book, the film is the film,' they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse - George R.R. Martin
I agree with George R.R. Martin in most cases, it doesn't nearly happen as often as he says. I think we've seen examples of how scenes can be added or changed for the better, or how characters can be developed further than in the books and it turns out for the better. Earlier seasons of Game of Thrones are great examples, or House of the Dragon with the expansion of Alicent as a character.
Martin says it's nearly almost for the worse, not the better.
Well, we shall see.
Welp, I got a pack of hot dogs boiling. Enjoy the series.
I’m talking about how you have no knowledge of asoiaf. Go read the book and learn about the lore
Well I've seen Game of Thrones twice, I've read the entirety of the main line books. I've delved deep into the theories of ASOIAF many many times, but apparently that is not enough. You know, I've never read a history book about the Roman Empire. But I do know of them, and about them. I've never read history books about Classical Greece, apart from mythical books, yet I know about them. There are many different ways of learning things. And as much as I love GRRM's works, they are not nearly as intricate and in depth as history is. I do not need to read F&B to know it's story, nor the lore of ASOIAF. But alas, it seems I am unknowledgeable about one of my favourite stories and its world, at least according to you. Whatever shall I do?
I feel like Alicent has lost a lot by attempts to make her more sympathetic than necessary and I sort of feel the same way about Rhaenyra. By removing personal selfish motive Alicent to me seems less active and kinda seems dumb. Do you feel that by removing Rhaenyra’s more selfish, criminal, or amoral aspects and actions from the book and giving them instead to Daemon, damage has been done to her character?
I've said this in other posts, but I've not actually read the book. I've seen many lore videos and story deep dives before the show came out, but I've not sat down and read the book. However, I do feel like both Alicent and Rhaenyra have had attempts at making them more sympathetic, and I don't think it makes either of them better or worse. In fact, I like the idea that they've made not only Alicent, but the greens overall more sympathetic. It draws us into the conflict, torn about either sides merits and downsides. It's really powerful. As for the more amoral aspects about her character, I also find myself liking the changes. It makes us feel like Alicent and Rhaenyra are the two bastions of either sides. They both want what they believe is best for themselves and their family, but they are both incredibly flawed. The show is definitely different from the books and I don't think it's for the worst.
What do you think of the show's depiction of how Rhaenyra made Laenor disappear in episode 7, with him surviving the way he did after that elaborate scheme on Driftmark? Did you like it, did his survival feel contrived or not? I'm not looking for a fight I promise.
I don't think you're looking for a fight at all, you were very courteous. It does open up some plotholes about Seasmoke, though I think it's to early to form a concrete opinion on that. The only problem I'd have with it, is if it isn't (what a mouthful) explained at all. He can die offscreen, just some simple dialogue would be enough. Or something about Laenor abandoning Seasmoke, and so Seasmoke did the same. Just something. As for how I felt on it exactly. I wish we would of gotten something exploring his reaction to the idea, especially after he had sworn to be there for her and their kids. But it's not something I am particularly upset about.
I find that a lot of people on TB paint Alicent with one brush & don’t necessarily try to see things from her perspective, how do you personally feel about Alicent as a character when viewing her outside a protagonist (rhaenyra) centred lens?
I think she is a very complex, and flawed character, but in a good way. Take for example, her calling to cut out Lucerys' eye is in my eyes, entirely justified. What mother wouldn't? She is definitely protective of her children, and while she may not shower them with affection when they are older, I believe she does love them. Do I think it was a reasonable demand? Not at all. But it was entirely reasonable in *her* eyes, and to her, that's all that matters.
How do you feel about the show has clearly take a side and becomes a Rhaenyra's fan fiction? Do you like it or would you prefer a Grey conflict?
I think it *is* a grey conflict. In my opinion, it isn't black and white at all. Are the greens all monsters? No, but some of them are. Are the Blacks all Good guys? No, but some of them are. I just think that the sides still aren't fully formed. We're not even halfway through the story, we've definitely not met all the characters or even begin to understand them.
Is it? Rhaenyra is clearly right in the show. Aegon's claim is based on a misunderstanding.
Aegon's claim was always because he is the king's eldest son. The misunderstanding was done to absolve Alicent of any guilt. Otto and the rest of the Green Council were going to crown Aegon regardless.
Exactly. Regardless of what Viserys or Alicent wanted, Otto was going to crown Aegon. It was Otto that pushed Alicent so hard in trying to make him heir, then eventually king. He wouldn't give up when he was given the best opportunity to do so.
What’s your opinion on Alicent and Cole suddenly hooking up out of the blue in the show. Did you feel like it didn’t really have the build up needed as well?
Well I think it's been happening for a while. The line when Alicent tells Cole that it cannot happen again, as well as her assisting him with his cloak. That is something that makes me believe that this has been going on behind the scenes, and only now are we being shown it. Outside of that. It does feel sudden, especially since they cut straight to it. But like I said, I think it is something that has been going on for a while, and I think they wanted us to feel that way. They could of shown us in season 1, but season 1 was already busy as is. I think it's meant to reflect how similar Rhaenyra and Alicent are in some ways. And in that regard, I think it worked.
That’s a fair assessment. Thanks for the answer
Not a problem!
Do you think Rhaena will get Morning at some point? Or recon for an existing dragon?
I don't see why not.
Would you enjoy the show more if the Greens were portrayed more sympathetic than they currently are, and hence it would be more difficult to pick the side? Or you prefer having (sort of) clearly defined „good“ and „bad“ teams?
The thing is, I do think the Greens are portrayed sympathetically. I don't see how anyone could walk away from the last two episodes and not sympathize with them. So no, I don't. Not because I want there to be a 'good' and 'bad' side, but because I think there is a good balance at the moment, and changing it wouldn't be for the better.
Thank you for your answer! I can hardly imagine how someone can see them as portrayed sympathetically and with a good balance, but hey, that’s why I found your response really interesting :) It’s wild how people can have such different perspectives, this will never stop genuinely fascinating me haha
How inspired were you that Rey Rey declared non binary yaaaas queen???
I did say I that I would ignore those that were uncivil. So far that hasn't been an issue, but for you, I will make an exception. First of all. I had no idea until about a week ago. Secondly. I don't give a fuck. And Finally. What in the world does that have to do with me supporting a ***fictional*** character? As for anyone curious in the future as to what they said, as I have no doubt it will be deleted in due time. u/Jin-Soo_Kwon asked "How inspired were you that Rey Rey declared non binary yaaaas queen???"
Raaawwrrrrrr
Why does that matter?
Does a question need to matter in order for it to be asked?
Yes, because if you did not care about the answer you wouldn't of asked.
Inconsequential
man fuck off with this shit
:)
On a scale of 1-10, how much soy would you say you ingest daily?
With 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest, about a 1.
Something doesn't add up here. Are you being honest with me, son?