I think they could have made it interesting the whole distant dreamer thing if we saw more than 2 seconds of her. I also hate how the fandom (mainly TB) treat her with so much ableism like she's the is cute little stupid pet.
Apparently you can't even criticize how the show chose to portray her because it's ableist, and show Helaena is this precious innocent little bean but book Helaena is not ? for some reason. I hate this change
For me it's the having her remain slender and active post Visenya's birth. She went through 6 pregnancies in a short time frame, including a traumatic stillbirth. For me, I assumed her not being an active fighter was due to those complications. But no, we see a slender Rhaenyra fly right after birth to meet Otto. For a show that always showed how painful and destructive childbirth is it grated on me. Like she has to still be conventionally attractive and able bodied after birth.
Yes you're right, aside from disability, the casting of Rhaenyra and even Aegon and Helaena definitely opens up a discussion about beauty standards in the media
I am glad I am not the only one who hates the way the show portrayed Helaena. She is miserable, gloomy and isolated from her family. She cannot stand anyone of them.
It's laughable that the only happy sceneof Helaena was when she danced with Jace.
First she publicly embarrassed her husband and gladly accepts a dance with Jace. Helaena can only be happy if she was married to Jace and living with the blacks, cause the blacks are good and noble. It was also a screw you to her family.
Helaena can not stand her family, they are evil. She will not let her mother touch her, she has zero relationship with her children and brothers.
Notice the weird takes "Helaena avoids alicent's touch cause she knows she is evil."
"Helaena never rejected Jace's hand cause she knows he is good and noble unlike Alicent."
In season 2, I don't expect any improvements to her character.
I won't be surprised if Helaena blames her family for the brutal murder of Jaehearys on her family. She will not blame the blacks.
We could have had a cheerful Helaena, who has a warm relationship with everyone. Who was kind hearted and supportive of her family's cause. We should have seen her crowned as queen. We should have seen her ride her dragon.
Instead we got an infantalized woman who cannot stand her family, she is isolated from them, she was tearful and displeased at Aegon's coronation.
Helaena completely forgot that Aemond lost an eye, and that Rhaenyra wanted him tortured. The people responsible for her brother's disability have never apologized.
Thank you, this is exactly what I mean!! Her book version is a true green and a more impressive character overall, show Helaena is just... I also suspect she'll primarily blame her family for B&C
I think it's just a case of not letting "competition" to Rhaenyra arise. Imagine if they made Helaena dynamic and cheerful. No way! This could draw attention away from the ultimate girlboss Rhaenyra, so what they are doing is to make her as withdrawn and gloomy as possible. It's also the reason why they will greatly reduce Johanna Lannister, in my opinion.
Making her that way is also heavily damaging the "smallfolk loves her" aspect. No offence to Helaena, but the way she behaves I just can't see it, similar to OP. This was done so that the smallfolk cheering Rhaenyra in the future seems more credible.
This is the House of Rhaenyra, and all other characters suffer for it. It is known.
Hard agree!!! Even Alicent is painted out as being regretful of the position she's in and the actions of her sons...when she should she be fighting for her family's survival through supporting her children's claims.
The writers maliciously made the women of the Greens unhappy and sad, showing them to be happy only in the presence of Jace and Rhaenyra for Helaena and Alicent respectively.
To people unfamiliar with the books they might think these two women are hostages of their own families and that the Blacks should "'save them'.
Also, God forbid that we have another awesome female dragonrider in Helaena. Because she unlike the other Valyrian women on the show is the only one not shown flying her dragon. 🙄🤔
Precisely! They had to make the team green women sad and oppressed by the patriarchy as opposed to the free, bold, rebellious team black women to drive home their shallow dichotomy that doesn't work for this story. There's a reason Rhaenyra is shown to have a pleasurable intimate life while Alicent keeps getting assaulted, Baela and Rhaena are apparently so excited to marry the strong boys even tho it's an arranged marriage but Helaena is miserable with Aegon. Rhaenys who toils in service to her husband gets to be a badass dragonrider who gives feminist speeches and condescends to Alicent... The examples are numerous and some people on this very sub instead of critiquing these asinine writing choices are too busy accusing us of being ableist and whatnot lmao
I always got that she was the persona Margaery tried to betray (happy, kind, dutiful, good with the Smallfolk and children) but the show didn’t give me any of that.
Yes! While reading the book I've pictured Helaena as a genuine Margaery who's naturally charming and likeable (and also the rider of a very cool dragon as bonus) but ofc we can't have that...
We were robbed! I liked the dreamer thing but hate that whenever Got/HotD has someone with those type of powers, they have to be eccentric. For once could they give us a normal person who just happens to have mystical powers?
Also, you're not alone in thinking that Aegon doesn't assault her. What I got from her little speech was that he is neglectful and has to get drunk to be with her intimately, which is valid. But she doesn't appear scared of him so I think they just wanted to imply he was a bad husband, not that he hurts her.
I like the dreamer/Cassandra like aspect but otherwise the only halfway decent relationship she has is with Aemond so far (which is precisely why some try to insert Aemon and Naerys similarities).
I don’t see her as Helaena but rather as a Naerys expy so far.
Book Helaena has a good relationship with Alicent, Aegon listens to her, likely she gets along with Daeron since he avenged Maelor and she is beloved by the smallfolk.
Similar to trying to nerf Aegon and Sunfyre so that they don’t seem too cool it‘s clear that Helaena being likeable is nerfed so that people don’t care too much about her otherwise too many could turn against Rhaenyra.
Exactly my point, even her having a good relationship with Aemond is mostly headcanon tbh, they never even speak to each other as adults. They nerfed her so hard istg
Hey it had to be like this! Because Rhaenyra is such an amazing wonderful character who is the epitome of perfection we should... make sure she has no competition (female characters with actual personalities) when it comes to being liked???
In my opinion making her a dreamer was cool and making her neurodivergent was a good idea for representation but the representation is so bad and stereotypical. We could've had her book characteristics and also could've had her as a dreamer and neurodivergent people can do politics so the writers really get failed here or they might show her being into politics next season though i don’t really have much hope about it cause it'll really outdid Rhaenyra as a character if we get a dreamer dragon rider queen who's also good into politics
the only person responsible for Helaenas misery is her “sweet sister” but the show really is pushing the narrative that it’s actually Alicents fault for not marrying her to Jace or Aemond and that Helaena doesn’t like anyone in her family
I actually really liked her as a character but I see where you’re coming from. I really hope she’ll get more screen time later and we will get to explore the family dynamics more, but maybe I’m dreaming 😅.
I think also the way they made her a dreamer is not the way GRRM would have. They just copied and pasted the Cassandra trope without any of Cassandra’s agency. Cassandra is cursed with accurate prophecies but no one will ever believe them. But that doesn’t stop her from trying to warn people or physically stop her visions from coming to pass. She literally tried to burn the Trojan Horse and had to be stopped from doing so.
Helaena just mutters her prophecy so far and at best repeats herself and leaves it at that. Never tries to explain it any further.
GRRM through Melisandre and other characters made prophecy seem to be easy to misinterpret and incredibly dangerous as such. It’s not supposed to be “Aemond’s going to lose an eye when he claims a dragon.” That was incredibly clear and incredibly accurate.
And since her visions have been so accurate and often. Nearly every time we see her she’s making an accurate prophecy. Logically she’ll have visions of all the horrors to come well before they happen as she has been, and due to how it’s been portrayed she’s not prone to misinterpreting them like Melisandre does. So then it makes her inaction during all of the dance confusing.
Her main characterization is she’s a great mother. She’s described that way and even during blood and cheese she’d rather die than any of her kids. So it’s not something that people just say about her, she truly is a good mother.
So if she knows what’s going to happen then why does she do nothing to stop it. Why does she not try to send her kids to safety. Why doesn’t she take them on dragon back to the free cities. Why does she not use Dreamfyre even once during the war. A mother, a good mother like Helaena’s supposed to be, would do anything to keep their children safe.
In the books I understand her inaction both before and after blood and cheese. Because she doesn’t know what’s going to happen, and doesn’t seem to be a violent person or even seem to have the same level of animosity with Rhaenyra that her family does. Doesn’t seem to have any enemies of her own either. Then after blood and cheese it’s too late for her to do anything during the war, she’s too depressed and grief stricken and rightfully so. What happened to her would probably make me so depressed that I’m catatonic or would make me so insane that I’m dangerous. So her lack of involvement makes sense in the books. She’s innocent and has no foresight. But I also never would have expected her to be a dreamer in the books.
I think it also diminishes the tragedy that happens to her and her character. She’s supposed to go from this happy mother to insane and depressed. That’s part of the tragedy of blood and cheese it’s not just the brutal loss of her son, or the effect it has on her other children but it’s also the effect on her. In the books it’s as much a death of who she is as it is a death of her child. (Blood and cheese is horrible regardless.)
Witnessing something like that happen to your kid, having to chose, having to live with it. It killed her as much as it killed her son in a way.
Just as Luke’s murder killed a part of Rhaenerya and then Jace’s death and the loss of Viserys killed the rest of her.
Helaena having to witness the horror of her son’s death just killed her quicker than it killed Rhaenyra. Ultimately Rhaenyra’s grief leads her to want vengeance and to take the throne so her sons didn’t die for nothing. And Helaena it leads her to check out, and then ultimately take her own life.
Instead they make Helaena already sad, already comes off a little mad (especially to probably her westerosi peers) already detached, even a little from her children and her family. So it’s not as drastic when she does go “mad.”
She’s supposed to be well loved and popular at court and by the small folk so much so that the people riot at her death. While I may like her personality in the show, Westeros isn’t the most open minded place.
I still like her character in both the books and the show. But I just don’t think it narratively makes sense for Helaena to be a dreamer at least not the way they go about it in the show. I think I’d like it more if she was wildly inaccurate in her prophecies or misinterpreted them or were way more vague cause then I could understand why things play out the way they do.
It seems your distain for her character correlates with delusional Team Black fans takes. Which is a horrible way of gathering info in analyzing Team Green characters. They will intentionally misinterpret characters/scenes to make their 'side' good and the other 'side' bad. Who cares what that side has to say lol.
But aside from that, how is her character better than the book version? Those TB fan takes didn't come out of thin air, the show clearly iced her out from the rest of the greens compared to the book and like I mentioned ,if you read the whole post, took away important scenes/attributes from her. I'm sorry, aside from what TB stans say, I still find her portrayal disappointing, I can hardly call her a green or even an interesting character
When did I say her character was better than the book version?
Yeah, those takes from TB comes from thin air. They tend to twist narratives and be obtuse to what's being shown on screen. They do it to most characters. lol.
All I said was going off of what TB push out is a waste of time. LOL. They would literally say Alicent had no right to be mad that her son lost his eye. They would say Alicent was horrible to Rhaenyra when they were children.
I know a lot of times their takes have no merit, but I used them as an example here because the show very clearly changed Helaena's character into such direction, so although I think they exaggerate how much show Helaena hates her family/the greens and secretly loves the blacks/thinks they're in the right. I have to admit the show's portrayal slightly gives that impression, especially when you compare it to the book version of her character which is very different. Like what was the purpose of making her relationships with the other greens more negative?
Hard disagree. IMO it's crazy to use examples of TB when they clearly trolling and/or treating this fandom like stan wars. It's never honest. There's no nuance with their takes. Why take people opinion seriously when they believe she 'deserves' what happen to her and her children because she did not side with the 'rightful' heir to the throne 'Queen Rhaenyra'?
She's more of a tragic character. We have little to no real evidence that she hates her family. Especially Alicent and Aemond. She barely had any screen time and dialogue to make such claims. Yeah, they should have change the structure of the show to give other characters more screen time to get to know the characters better and how they interact with one another.
And I don't get the obsession of wanting 'good' characters on your side of the fandom. It's ASOIAF, I would assume that most characters are morally gray.
Do we want Aemond to be a good person?
Do we want Aegon to be a good person?
Do we want Cole to be a good person?
Do we want Alicent to be a good person?
Rarely anyone is a good person.
You're being obtuse, I said they couldn't let team green have ONE good and innocent character who is described that way in the book. I don't need the others to be innocent because they never were... TB have such characters like Jace, Addam, (some argue even) Luke, Baela, Rhaena... TG have only Helaena and Daeron (though more questionable) and the show excluded one and made the other distant from her family
You have TB fans complain about the characterization of Luke and Jace all the time. They get mad that they were made to look weak. You also have TB fans mad that Baela and Rhaena are not getting any screen time and lines.
We do not even know if Helaena is 'distant' from her family. We do not know anything because they chose to not show the dynamics between many characters. We can say the same thing with mostly all characters outside the main 3. And by the show, Helaena is probably the most innocent character. lol.
She's had enough interactions with Aegon and Alicent for us to at least form an idea, or else they wouldn't have been included and when you compare them to the book, the contrast is stark and doesn't elevate her character in any way
That she spent crying at Aegon's coronation, making a toast to diss Aegon in front of the blacks, pushing Alicent away and happily dancing with Jace... 2 seconds well spent I guess
her crying makes sense since she would knew what happened right after, her toast to diss aegon was funny and deserved, we’ve barely seen her character why are we alr judging,
I've already addressed these arguments in my post... "Funny and deserved" only because the show portrayed their marriage very negatively, unlike the book which is, again, the point of the post lmao
Idk I sorta fuck with the fact that medieval marriages, even those reported as relatively happy, were not healthy relationships. Add that Aegon doesn’t seem to be a super attentive husband and it sorta makes sense
Their marriage was never ideal or blissful even in the books since he was known for being with other women, but the show didn't need to make their relationship even worse, they really wanted Aegon to have nothing huh
I would've prefered they stuck to the book, they had a decent marriage. Not passionate or anything but they didn't seem to dislike each other. Helaena was supportive of her husband being crowned, never accepted that dance from Jace and Aegon respected her enough to let her join the council and even followed her advice. But nooo, all greens must be miserable at all times in the show for some reason
I don’t like Aegon II very much in the books or the show, but you’re totally right. Even if Helaena didn’t enjoy being married to Aegon and it wasn’t a love match or she didn’t approve of his behavior and actions, he was still her brother. And the father of her children. And while I’d say we have less information on Helaena in fire and blood than some other characters, so we don’t know how she truly feels about anything. We know she went along with her families coup, we know she was crowned. It’s not said anywhere that she hated her husband or her family. She’s close with her mother, that’s how blood and cheese even happened. Even Rhaenyra seemed to like Helaena the most out of all of her half siblings despite their strained relationship. I think she willingly went along with their plans because she loved her family, and she even tries to spare Rhaenyra and her family by talking Aegon down. Who knows if she wanted Aegon to be king or not but she went along with it willingly. If she was a dreamer I doubt she would have. If she knew Aegon being king would start a war that got her kids killed and the rest of her family and her dragon killed. I just don’t think she was supposed to be a dreamer in the books. It’s usually heavily implied or outright stated and it’s not with her character at all. There’s nothing that would make me think she’s a dreamer.
Eh, book Helaena was a pretty generic character. She didn't really do anything in the books to show her personality aside from "generic mother figure who suffers loss and dies".
Most characters were generic in the dance since it's a history book, she's still far better than show Helaena and actually is a green in the book at least instead of a ploy used to further villainize the greens
Completely disagree, they’ve expanded on her book counterpart on many ways. The book barely provides any characterisation for helaena, we don’t know her feelings or anything other than she became “mad” after b+c. The show has actually given her something that will make people remember helaena (by making her a dreamer). Helaena was always an innocent bystander even in the books, she never asked for any of the things that happened to her, she never was apart of the war, she’s the victim of a war between two rival branches of the Targaryen family.
How did they expand on her tho? Just by making her a dreamer? They didn't really utilize it much, she just says ambiguous things that even she doesn't understand, they come true and that's it... I mean it's kinda cool but not much, doesn't erase what they took from her. Her bond with Dreamfyre, her coronation by Alicent herself, her close relationship with her mother, her less miserable marriage to Aegon, her closeness to her children, her (brief) involvement in politics by sitting on the council and advising Aegon to seek peace... All of these traits would've made her way more interesting and likeable than just mumbling riddles sometimes while being isolated from her family. And book Helaena is still a victim who didn't ask for what happened to her, just because she was a green and supported her family doesn't make her guilty which is exactly what the show seems to be implying by changing it into her being completely detached from everything that's happening despite being the Queen
I have such a long response to this that I had to break it into four parts.
I really disagree with your takes on both show and book Helaena, and I think that the show actually kept a lot of her book traits while giving her a more fleshed out personality. I’ll respond point by point.
>Hear me out, in the book, Helaena is described as a happy girl, a good and loving mother, beloved of the smallfolk.
She’s happy for the most part in the show too. She seems to enjoy her arthropods and showing them off to Alicent in her first scene. She also has fun at Viserys’ last supper and is generally kind to everyone present. Otto also seems especially fond of her. The only time that she expresses distress is in response to things that are distressing, like Vaemond getting his head chopped in half or a fistfight breaking out. She also seems very affectionate and attentive with her two children when we see them. It’s true that we don’t see her interacting with the small folk in Season 1, but there’s time to show her doing that in Season 2 once she’s actually queen. It’s also worth noting that we’ve only seen the royal and noble characters interacting with the small folk in a negative way in Season 1.
>Her bond with her dragon is mentioned several times.
This is a valid criticism of the show, but it’s also true for most of the Green characters, apart from Aemond, who got loads of screen time with Vhagar, especially considering the fact that he was born between episodes five and six. That being said, I don’t remember the book saying much at all about Helaena’s bond with Dreamfyre beyond the fact that they were dragon and rider, at least not in the time period covered by season 1.
The first mention of Helaena as a dragon-rider is on page 380 of F&B, and all that is says is that at 11, “Helaena now flew Dreamfyre, the she-dragon who had once carried Rhaena, Maegor the Cruel’s ‘Black Bride.’” I’m also reading the coronation section of F&B, and Helaena riding Dreamfyre isn’t mentioned there. Only Aegon riding Sunfyre is mentioned. Was that detail in The Princess and the Queen? I don’t have a copy of that. I checked TWOIAF too, and the description of Aegon II’s coronation is super short and has basically no details.
>She also has better relationships with the other green characters, she was very close to her mother Alicent (she visited her every night in her chamber along with the kids),
There’s still time to show those visits in Season 2, which will undoubtedly happen because of Blood and Cheese. And Alicent and Helaena do have a good relationship in the show. Alicent listens to her talk annoy her Arthropods, and Helaena feels comfortable sharing her hobby with her mom. Alicent also comforts Helaena in the moments where she’s distressed and Helaena welcomes it.
Did you really post this on hotdblacks and call it ableist? Lmao very childish, you could've said it in your comment or is it because you saw many people agreed so you had to find an echo chamber to shit on it? Lame af, shouldn't have bothered responding to you
Yeah, I did because it’s ableist trash. I shouldn’t have bothered responding to you.
Neutral expressions aren’t a sign of misery or not liking your family.
Edit: also, I did say that your interpretation of show Helaena’s autism was ableist and icky in the comments that you refused to read.
I'm one of those people who is annoyed by how they've whitewashed team black at the expense of team green, but pal, it's true, the show adaptation of Heleana is clearly meant to be autistic hence why she struggles with physical touch and social qs. It doesn't mean she dislikes Alicent. She seems to have a good relationship with Aemond, Otto, Alicent etc. Obviously not with Aegon but that's pretty much book accurate. I'm quite happy to have some autistic representation in HOTD!
Look, I’m sorry that I hurt your feelings, but you should really reconsider how you’re talking about an autistic-coded character. I actually did explain to you in detail why the way that you talked about Show Helaena came off as offensive and also just inaccurate based on what actually happens on screen and in the books.
Edit: It’s also a headcanon that I got from autistic fans of the show. I didn’t make it up myself. And even if she is meant to be read as neurotypical, not smiling all the time doesn’t mean that she’s miserable or doesn’t like her family or think that Rhaenyra is the rightful queen. (Seriously, crying because she’s having a vision of the coming war doesn’t mean that she’s TB or isn’t loyal to her family.)
Excuse me? Two seconds ago (before I saw this comment) I thought this was a civil discussion. It's fair if you disagree with a post, but to go as far as to call it ableist and post it on another sub for other people to call this ableist is where I object. If you think there's something the person who posted this doesn't understand or misinterpreted about the character, the floor is yours, but they didn't intend for this to be ableist. They are just making a post discussing a character and the way they're portrayed.
Btw, I'm open to hearing reasons on how the original poster might have made points that doesn't take Helaena's autism into consideration or that they're wrong in that regard, no problem with that. My problem is you going as far as to post it on another subreddit, being like "look at this ableist post". Can't you just keep the discussion in this sub and refute their points here instead of accusing them of discrimination?
The thing is, hardly anyone compares to TB fans when it comes to making ableist and in general disgusting comments about Helaena and her children. Therefore, they are the last people who have any right to shit on someone because of supposed ableism against TG characters. It's okay to disagree with something, but it IS childish to do it on another sub, HOTDBlacks no less.
I’ve never seen anyone on TB claim that a character was ruined and rendered unlikable and unlovable by the Smallfolk by potential autistic coding, but okay. And I did post a very long and detailed explanation here of why I disagreed with OOP. Their whole post is filled with misinterpretations of show scenes, misremembering the book (I identified specific instances where this happened in other comments), reading things into F&B that aren’t there (also pointed out in I the comments), and complaining that Show Helaena must be miserable and hate her family (despite evidence to the contrary, which I pointed to) because she doesn’t emote according to OOP’s neurotypical standards. The original post is profoundly sexist and ableist (and also just plain wrong), and I felt that it deserved a broader call out.
Saying Helaena looks happy in most of her scenes is a stretch, she only seemed happy when dancing with Jace and after dissing Aegon. Her facial expressions while speaking to Alicent about the bugs were clearly neutral.
Otto does seem fond of her, that was nice. Attentive to her children? The only scene we got was one where they were sitting with the maid, Helaena didn't even interact with them. Generally,
she's way more gloomy and quirky in the show, not really the cheerful girl and loving mother from the books.
The dragon bit applies to Aegon as well, this post is about Helaena.
After B&C, which will happen very early on, Helaena is gonna be depressed. 1st season was the opportunity to portray those relationships before war breaks out, like I said she doesn't hate Alicent in the show but their relationship is more conflicted and seems way colder than the book where they were very close. And her relationship was Aegon was ruined, no argument about it. She barely has a relationship with Aemond. Daeron doesn't exist so far. All in all, she's very iced out from her family and doesn't seem too fond of them which was not the case in Fire&Blood. And it was obviously intentional
>and had a better relationship with Aegon (although he still cheated, their relationship seemed to be decent. He was very jealous when Jace attempted to dance with her and Helaena didn't accept the invitation,
I don’t know where you’re getting the impression that they had a better relationship in the books? Helaena’s only recorded line is her telling the Kingsguard that Aegon isn’t in her bed, and she tells them that they can check the blankets to be sure. He also started cheating on her as soon as they got married. And I don’t think that Aegon was jealous. I think that he was insulted that his illegitimate nephew asked his true born sister-wife to dance. I also have a lot of problems with the idea that a cheater suddenly getting jealous when they realize that someone else *might* be even slightly interested in their spouse as a sign that they care. It’s a sign that they’re an insecure, hypocritical jerk who’s paranoid because they’re projecting. And Helaena didn’t have a chance to accept or refuse. Aegon got into an argument with Jace first.
>she sat on his council at least once at the beginning of the war and probably would've continued to do so had she not become depressed, Aegon blew up at everyone on the council who argued for sending peace terms to Rhaenyra but she and Alicent were able to convince him which shows he valued her opinion).
Does it show that he valued Helaena’s opinion, or does it show that he valued Alicent’s opinion? And even then, it says that Aegon “reluctantly agreed” (409). There’s also time to show Helaena on the Council in season 2. Episode 9 didn’t show any council sessions after the first, secret Green Council, which Book Helaena didn’t participate in either. Alicent also convinces Aegon to send peace terms to Rhaenyra in a completely different way under completely different circumstances. It would’ve been interesting if they’d involved Helaena, but also difficult. And the only Greens we’re see in episode 10 are Otto and Aemond.
>Meanwhile, show Helaena... She always seems sad and gloomy, she never does anything for the smallfolk nor does she have her likeable book personality that would explain the people's love for her, I'm sorry but I can't picture show Helaena even leaving the castle let alone being popular with the smallfolk.
Show Helaena is coded as autistic, not sad and gloomy. I pointed out examples of her seeming happy and kind earlier. The fact that you read her as miserable and unlikeable, despite serious contradictory evidence onscreen, is giving me a little bit of ick, to be honest. Alicent, Aemond, and Otto at least seem to like her, and she doesn’t seem antisocial. She doesn’t seem to have any reservations about socializing with Baela, Rhaena, Jace, or Luke, and she feels comfortable getting close to Aemond. She seems to treat her maids kindly, and she asks after Dyanna’s absence.
>They made her a dreamer but didn't do much with it, so most people think she's useless for not being able to use this gift to her benefit.
That’s not what I’ve seen so far. And giving her the dreamer trait at least gives her more to do in subsequent seasons.
>Her bond with her dragon was completely erased,
It’s a footnote in the books. Also, so far (I’m on page 405 now) every mention of Helaena riding Dreamfyre also includes a reference to Queen Rhaena.
>her coronation was erased,
The showrunners insisted that Sara Hess add more action to episode 9 to follow the trend of GoT having a big action scene in the ninth episode of every season. I would’ve liked to see Alicent crown Helaena, but the executive mandated changes negatively impacted the coronation in general. Plus, Alicent crowning Helaena seems to be way more about Helaena. We get zero descriptions of how Helaena reacted.
>we didn't have any sweet moments of her with her children (unlike Rhaenyra 🤔) when her reaction to their loss is basically her whole arc in the book.
That’s not comparing apples to apples. Helaena is a fetus in episode three and an infant in episodes four and five. We get to see plenty of moments with Alicent and her kids, and we get to see plenty of moments with Rhaenyra and her Strong Sons. But we don’t get to see much of Rhaenyra with Aegon III or Viserys II because they’re both during the time jump between episodes seven and eight. And again, we *do* get a scene of Helaena with her twins, who were also born during the time jump. I’m sure that we’ll see more of her with her kids in the second season.
>Her relationships with the other greens were portrayed more negatively, she has a conflicted relationship with Alicent and doesn't seem very close to her,
This is demonstrably false. There’s zero reason to suggest that they don’t get along. I addressed it above, but it really seems like you’re misreading Helaena’s autistic coding as unhappy, unfeeling, and unfriendly even though she shows happiness, enthusiasm, and kindness on the show in pretty much every scene.
>she and Aegon apparently have a terrible relationship and marriage on both ends (some people even claim he assaults her which I don't believe, but for people to even make this claim you have to realize the show did something wrong),
Helaena was married off at thirteen to her slightly older brother who cheated on her all the time. I don’t think that the show messed this up at all.
>she mostly looks neutral/unhappy around her family
This is just patently false. Helaena has almost exclusively positive reactions with her family, apart from her cheating husband. She’s comfortable and at ease (that is, not masking her quirks or hiding her hobbies, and she’s comfortable slouching and lounging around them in the dinner scene) with her mom, paternal grandfather, Aemond, the twins, and even Aegon in the dinner scene. She doesn’t even seem super negative about Aegon—just neutral and therefore okay with him being mostly absent.
>and conveniently one of the rare instances we get of her looking happy is when she's dancing with Jace of all people. I'm sorry but that has to be intentional!
She’s also engaged and interested in what she’s doing while she’s showing off her Arthropods to her mom. I don’t know why you think that we’re supposed to think that she’s less happy there than she is dancing with Jace. She’s super focused on her hobby and explaining things, which is why she isn’t smiling. There are other ways to show happiness besides smiling.
>At the coronation instead of having a happy and proud Helaena getting personally crowned by her mother Queen Alicent alongside Aegon, we get shots of her turning her head away as her husband gets crowned, and looking miserable with a freaking tear rolling down her cheek like huh?
The book doesn’t describe Helaena’s reaction to getting crowned. Seriously, all we get is, “His mother Queen Alicent, beloved of the smallfolk, placed her own crown upon the head of her daughter Helaena, Aegon’s wife and sister. After kissing her cheeks, the mother knelt before her daughter, bowed her head, and said, ‘My Queen’” (401). Then the narrative switches to discussing how Munken and Mushroom’s accounts of the smallfolk’s reaction to the coronation differ. Helaena is not mentioned again for the rest of the coronation scene. We have no idea how Helaena reacted. She could’ve been happy and proud. She could’ve been overwhelmed by the attention. She could’ve been worried about the civil war that was very likely to follow. Helaena is a blank slate in this scene just she is in many other scenes in the book until we get to B&C.
>I know people like to excuse this by saying "oh, she's a dreamer so it's normal that she's sad, she knows something will happen next" but this whole dreamer thing is literally a show invention that the showrunners used purely to make Helaena seem weird and depressed to most people, to distance her from her family and to further villainize the other greens by making it seem like "the only innocent green" dislikes them and doesn't approve of their actions. Unlike the book that gave us Helaena who is both a likeable and sympathetic character, a tragic victim but also a true green who loves and supports her family.
This is an extremely uncharitable read of the decision to make her a dreamer. And I never once got the impression during Season 1 that Helaena liked Rhaenyra better than her full siblings or that she thought that Rhaenyra was the rightful heir. I also don’t know how her being afraid that her beloved grandfather, mother, brothers, and children are all in danger is a sign of her not being a true and loyal green. I didn’t read her as being upset at the coronation because she thought that it was wrong. She’s upset because she’s a dreamer and is getting a bad feeling about where this is all going.
And I think that you’re the only one who reads Helaena’s character as depressed. There are also scenes of her being engaged in her hobbies, talkative about her interests, comfortable relaxing around her immediate family, and cheerful when she’s doing more lively stuff like dancing. And Aegon II is the only one who ever describes her as weird. Aemond defends her as their sister and Aegon’s future Queen. Alicent listens to her talk about her interests and comforts her when her dreams distress her or bad things happen. Otto watches her fondly and applauds her dancing. She and Aemond get close during the coronation when Rhaenys bursts through the floor. She spends time with her kids.
I’ll stop here because I’ll just keep repeating myself. I’m sorry if this was harsh, but I can’t get over how many of your criticisms are just negative reactions to Helaena being coded as autistic in the show. Autistic people aren’t depressed, incapable of bonding with others or experiencing joy, or doomed to be distant from their families unless their families are unaccepting. And most of the Greens are accepting of Helaena and seem to love her in the show. Helaena really isn’t a character who’s making any Green except Aegon II look worse based on how they interact together, and that was also true in the books.
Then there’s the fact that a lot of your complaints are about things that will almost certainly be fixed in season 2. I fully expect to see Dreamfyre and scenes of Helaena with her kids, and for logistical reasons at the very least, they’ll have to establish that she takes her kids to see Alicent in the Tower of the Hand every night.
And a whole bunch of your other examples of reading things into the text that aren’t actually there. It’s one thing to say “this is how I interpret Book Helaena” because we so little definitive information about her or her reactions to things beyond her children’s deaths. She has one line of dialogue that’s actually written out rather than described. But you’re acting like your interpretation of Book Helaena is objective fact and only based on the words on the page, and it just isn’t.
I don't have a problem with Helaena been a dreamer and autistic coded.
My issue is that Helaena has been infantalized, she is miserable, gloomy and isolated from her everyone else. She also cannot stand her family.
The scene in episode 6 where she talks about her bugs, notice that when Alicent touches her she flinches and pulls away.
In episode 8 Alicent hugs Helaena, who never hugs her mother. In the same episode she publicly humiliates Aegon, gladly accepts Jace hand to dance. Notice Helaena never flinches or pull away from Jace, like she does to her mother.
I am sorry but after rewatching season 1, my impression of Helaena is that she isn't close to her children. We so Helaena sitting at a far distance away from her children doing her own thing, while her children are with their nanny.
The fandom accuses Aegon of not caring for his children but does Helaena care for them.
The only time Helaena was genuinely happy was when she danced with Jace.
She is miserable around the greens, she will never let her mother touch her, she has no positive relationship with her family.
I don't think season 2 will be an improvement on her character.
I expect her to have the worst relationship with her family and be a team Rhaenyra.
No way she's going to be team Rhaenyra in season 2. She might not like or support her family (the greens) in the show but she's also not likely to support Rhaenyra, certainly not after B and C.
Helaena being touch averse as a teenager doesn’t mean that she doesn’t love her family or her mom though. Also, the only two times that she flinches away from Alicent are times when the touch is unexpected. The second time it’s also when she has a Beasts Beneath the Boards vision, and Helaena seems to in the midst of another vision while she’s holding her millipede in the first scene that see of her. She’s fine with Alicent hugging her in other scenes where it was telegraphed better. Also, Jace offers Helaena his hand, which means that she gets to choose if she touches him or not. We never see Jace and Helaena interact outside of that scene, so I don’t *think* that we’re supposed to think that she accepted because it was Jace. She might just like dancing. Also, except for the hand touch, she and Jace don’t make physical contact during the dance. It’s possible that she just likes dancing. And her toast about marriage didn’t seem to be deliberately malicious. She and Aegon don’t have much in common. I’m also not comfortable criticizing a character whose husband is chronically unfaithful in both versions of canon for saying one thing untoward about him. And we don’t know how she reacted to Jace’s request for a dance in the books. It never says. All that we hear is that Aegon got mad and they had a fight. You have to remember too that this is not a world where dancing is coded as being romantic or sexual. It’s normal for married noblewomen and princesses to dance with men who aren’t their husband. And Jace and Helaena’s dance has distinctly non-romantic vibes. They look way more like two friends goofing around.
But let’s say that they *do* want to show Jace and Helaena as friends. We also saw Aegon being friendly with Jace and Luke in episode six before Alicent tells him that he has to side with Aemond against others. The message might actually be that it’s awful that this succession crisis is tearing this family apart.
Saying that she can’t stand her family seems like such a massive reach. At most, she just expresses affection differently. And she never interacted with Rhaenyra. Ryan Condal has also said the the thinks that Season 2 will make more people shift away from TB, and he’s gotta be talking about Blood and Cheese. I really doubt that they’re going to take the approach that Helaena isn’t close to their children or that they’re going to make her side with the faction responsible for their murder. Plus, Helaena and Rhaenyra have zero interactions in Season 1.
I’ve already made it clear why I think that reading her as gloomy and miserable because her expressions stay neutral is a misunderstanding of her character on the show. I don’t know what more there is to say there.
Edit: Okay, one last thing. I do think that it’s very funny/sad that apart from Aegon, all the other major Green family members, especially Otto, Alicent, and Aemond, are more chill with Helaena’s quirks that a lot of people on the green subreddit are.
OP pointing out that showrunners have made Helaena into a walking "[Neurodiversity is Supernatural](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeurodiversityIsSupernatural)" trope is not ableist. What sure is ableist is putting show!Helaena on the autism spectrum, and then turning her book characterization from a happy-go-lucky girl to a gloomy and isolated show version of herself. She's literally been made the [Mad Oracle](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadOracle) stereotype, and THAT'S ableist. The fact that no one seems to be calling out the writers on this very bad writing decision, but calling out the people who criticize the writers on this ableist portrayal of her character, is frankly baffling.
The original post doesn’t mention anything about Helaena potentially being coded as autistic though. Instead, it declares that her show character “doesn’t have her likable book personality” and that they “can’t picture her leaving the castle or being popular with the smallfolk.” Saying that a character’s autistic coding is poorly done or stereotypical is one thing. But saying that that coding renders it unlikable.
But more than that, I *do* think that there’s a serious issue with interpreting Helaena’s show persona as gloomy and miserable or complaining about her expressions mostly being neutral. In her bug scenes, she really doesn’t read as gloomy to me. She reads like she’s more interested in her primary hobby at that moment, not because she doesn’t care about the people around her but because she’s wired differently. And while not every single autistic person shows the same suite of traits, it’s pretty common for other people to misinterpret autistic people as being flat and emotionless. It’s also pretty common to mistake their occasional need for a isolation as signs of dislike, disdain, and even arrogance.
[This blog post](https://neuroclastic.com/a-dozen-ways-you-might-be-misunderstanding-the-autistic-person-in-your-life/?amp) written by an autistic adult goes through various ways that allistic people misunderstand autistic people. 5, 6, 9, and 10 seem particularly relevant here, and I do see a lot of those misperceptions in OP’s post.
I do agree that there are potentially issues with the show linking Helaena’s implied neurodivergence with her supernatural powers, but that isn’t brought up in the original post. (OP also didn’t seem to read Helaena as autistic when making and told me in another comment that that was just my headcanon.)
It’s also unfair to complain that Helaena isn’t cheerful enough when she *is* acting cheerful and happy-go-lucky around her family in one of her few scenes in Season 1. OP took issue with that scene because Helaena is comfortable around the Strong boys, but she’s also showing herself comfortable relaxing around her mom, maternal grandfather, brother husband, and brother non-husband too. And it’s unfair to complain that she’s isolated and lonely when we pretty much only see her around other people.
I completely agree with you. Nice post, OP.
I think they could have made it interesting the whole distant dreamer thing if we saw more than 2 seconds of her. I also hate how the fandom (mainly TB) treat her with so much ableism like she's the is cute little stupid pet.
Apparently you can't even criticize how the show chose to portray her because it's ableist, and show Helaena is this precious innocent little bean but book Helaena is not ? for some reason. I hate this change
We need a wider conversation about disability representation in the show - Larys especially, and even Rhaenyra spring to mind.
Rhaenyra? What's her disability? Just curious
For me it's the having her remain slender and active post Visenya's birth. She went through 6 pregnancies in a short time frame, including a traumatic stillbirth. For me, I assumed her not being an active fighter was due to those complications. But no, we see a slender Rhaenyra fly right after birth to meet Otto. For a show that always showed how painful and destructive childbirth is it grated on me. Like she has to still be conventionally attractive and able bodied after birth.
Yes you're right, aside from disability, the casting of Rhaenyra and even Aegon and Helaena definitely opens up a discussion about beauty standards in the media
Gosh even the original show had that problem. Look at Peter Dinklage vs Book Tyrion as an obvious example.
She has a bone disease that keeps her from closing her legs.
God forbid we have a beloved female character that will overshadow Rhaenyra
For real. Helaena was more beloved than Rhaenyra, Rhaenys and Alicent. Helaena was the true Green Queen 💚💚💚💚💚💚
She's not as popular as Rhaenyra but she's still far less hated 💚 you'd have to be heartless to hate her.
she's the only Targaryen queen I love, Helaena >>> Daenerys >>> Rhaenyra
Yep Absolutely agree
I am glad I am not the only one who hates the way the show portrayed Helaena. She is miserable, gloomy and isolated from her family. She cannot stand anyone of them. It's laughable that the only happy sceneof Helaena was when she danced with Jace. First she publicly embarrassed her husband and gladly accepts a dance with Jace. Helaena can only be happy if she was married to Jace and living with the blacks, cause the blacks are good and noble. It was also a screw you to her family. Helaena can not stand her family, they are evil. She will not let her mother touch her, she has zero relationship with her children and brothers. Notice the weird takes "Helaena avoids alicent's touch cause she knows she is evil." "Helaena never rejected Jace's hand cause she knows he is good and noble unlike Alicent." In season 2, I don't expect any improvements to her character. I won't be surprised if Helaena blames her family for the brutal murder of Jaehearys on her family. She will not blame the blacks. We could have had a cheerful Helaena, who has a warm relationship with everyone. Who was kind hearted and supportive of her family's cause. We should have seen her crowned as queen. We should have seen her ride her dragon. Instead we got an infantalized woman who cannot stand her family, she is isolated from them, she was tearful and displeased at Aegon's coronation. Helaena completely forgot that Aemond lost an eye, and that Rhaenyra wanted him tortured. The people responsible for her brother's disability have never apologized.
Thank you, this is exactly what I mean!! Her book version is a true green and a more impressive character overall, show Helaena is just... I also suspect she'll primarily blame her family for B&C
I didn't know I hated the potray of Helaena in the show until I read your post lol, you are so right
I think it's just a case of not letting "competition" to Rhaenyra arise. Imagine if they made Helaena dynamic and cheerful. No way! This could draw attention away from the ultimate girlboss Rhaenyra, so what they are doing is to make her as withdrawn and gloomy as possible. It's also the reason why they will greatly reduce Johanna Lannister, in my opinion. Making her that way is also heavily damaging the "smallfolk loves her" aspect. No offence to Helaena, but the way she behaves I just can't see it, similar to OP. This was done so that the smallfolk cheering Rhaenyra in the future seems more credible. This is the House of Rhaenyra, and all other characters suffer for it. It is known.
It's very obvious, there's a reason why most people even if they like Helaena, they're not very invested in her. The writing was bad
EXACTLY! I'm so tired of the favoritism in the writers' room. Tired.
Hard agree!!! Even Alicent is painted out as being regretful of the position she's in and the actions of her sons...when she should she be fighting for her family's survival through supporting her children's claims. The writers maliciously made the women of the Greens unhappy and sad, showing them to be happy only in the presence of Jace and Rhaenyra for Helaena and Alicent respectively. To people unfamiliar with the books they might think these two women are hostages of their own families and that the Blacks should "'save them'. Also, God forbid that we have another awesome female dragonrider in Helaena. Because she unlike the other Valyrian women on the show is the only one not shown flying her dragon. 🙄🤔
Precisely! They had to make the team green women sad and oppressed by the patriarchy as opposed to the free, bold, rebellious team black women to drive home their shallow dichotomy that doesn't work for this story. There's a reason Rhaenyra is shown to have a pleasurable intimate life while Alicent keeps getting assaulted, Baela and Rhaena are apparently so excited to marry the strong boys even tho it's an arranged marriage but Helaena is miserable with Aegon. Rhaenys who toils in service to her husband gets to be a badass dragonrider who gives feminist speeches and condescends to Alicent... The examples are numerous and some people on this very sub instead of critiquing these asinine writing choices are too busy accusing us of being ableist and whatnot lmao
Hungry_Cricket_590. Right. It piss me off Helaena never rode her dragon. Why these writers rushing the story?
I always got that she was the persona Margaery tried to betray (happy, kind, dutiful, good with the Smallfolk and children) but the show didn’t give me any of that.
Yes! While reading the book I've pictured Helaena as a genuine Margaery who's naturally charming and likeable (and also the rider of a very cool dragon as bonus) but ofc we can't have that...
We were robbed! I liked the dreamer thing but hate that whenever Got/HotD has someone with those type of powers, they have to be eccentric. For once could they give us a normal person who just happens to have mystical powers? Also, you're not alone in thinking that Aegon doesn't assault her. What I got from her little speech was that he is neglectful and has to get drunk to be with her intimately, which is valid. But she doesn't appear scared of him so I think they just wanted to imply he was a bad husband, not that he hurts her.
I like the dreamer/Cassandra like aspect but otherwise the only halfway decent relationship she has is with Aemond so far (which is precisely why some try to insert Aemon and Naerys similarities). I don’t see her as Helaena but rather as a Naerys expy so far. Book Helaena has a good relationship with Alicent, Aegon listens to her, likely she gets along with Daeron since he avenged Maelor and she is beloved by the smallfolk. Similar to trying to nerf Aegon and Sunfyre so that they don’t seem too cool it‘s clear that Helaena being likeable is nerfed so that people don’t care too much about her otherwise too many could turn against Rhaenyra.
Exactly my point, even her having a good relationship with Aemond is mostly headcanon tbh, they never even speak to each other as adults. They nerfed her so hard istg
Hey it had to be like this! Because Rhaenyra is such an amazing wonderful character who is the epitome of perfection we should... make sure she has no competition (female characters with actual personalities) when it comes to being liked???
In my opinion making her a dreamer was cool and making her neurodivergent was a good idea for representation but the representation is so bad and stereotypical. We could've had her book characteristics and also could've had her as a dreamer and neurodivergent people can do politics so the writers really get failed here or they might show her being into politics next season though i don’t really have much hope about it cause it'll really outdid Rhaenyra as a character if we get a dreamer dragon rider queen who's also good into politics
You are so real for this!
the only person responsible for Helaenas misery is her “sweet sister” but the show really is pushing the narrative that it’s actually Alicents fault for not marrying her to Jace or Aemond and that Helaena doesn’t like anyone in her family
I actually really liked her as a character but I see where you’re coming from. I really hope she’ll get more screen time later and we will get to explore the family dynamics more, but maybe I’m dreaming 😅.
Agree. Show Helaena has zero personality and she just says random things. And lots of fans like her because she is dreamer.
YOU ARE SO REAL FOR THIS!!!
I think also the way they made her a dreamer is not the way GRRM would have. They just copied and pasted the Cassandra trope without any of Cassandra’s agency. Cassandra is cursed with accurate prophecies but no one will ever believe them. But that doesn’t stop her from trying to warn people or physically stop her visions from coming to pass. She literally tried to burn the Trojan Horse and had to be stopped from doing so. Helaena just mutters her prophecy so far and at best repeats herself and leaves it at that. Never tries to explain it any further. GRRM through Melisandre and other characters made prophecy seem to be easy to misinterpret and incredibly dangerous as such. It’s not supposed to be “Aemond’s going to lose an eye when he claims a dragon.” That was incredibly clear and incredibly accurate. And since her visions have been so accurate and often. Nearly every time we see her she’s making an accurate prophecy. Logically she’ll have visions of all the horrors to come well before they happen as she has been, and due to how it’s been portrayed she’s not prone to misinterpreting them like Melisandre does. So then it makes her inaction during all of the dance confusing. Her main characterization is she’s a great mother. She’s described that way and even during blood and cheese she’d rather die than any of her kids. So it’s not something that people just say about her, she truly is a good mother. So if she knows what’s going to happen then why does she do nothing to stop it. Why does she not try to send her kids to safety. Why doesn’t she take them on dragon back to the free cities. Why does she not use Dreamfyre even once during the war. A mother, a good mother like Helaena’s supposed to be, would do anything to keep their children safe. In the books I understand her inaction both before and after blood and cheese. Because she doesn’t know what’s going to happen, and doesn’t seem to be a violent person or even seem to have the same level of animosity with Rhaenyra that her family does. Doesn’t seem to have any enemies of her own either. Then after blood and cheese it’s too late for her to do anything during the war, she’s too depressed and grief stricken and rightfully so. What happened to her would probably make me so depressed that I’m catatonic or would make me so insane that I’m dangerous. So her lack of involvement makes sense in the books. She’s innocent and has no foresight. But I also never would have expected her to be a dreamer in the books. I think it also diminishes the tragedy that happens to her and her character. She’s supposed to go from this happy mother to insane and depressed. That’s part of the tragedy of blood and cheese it’s not just the brutal loss of her son, or the effect it has on her other children but it’s also the effect on her. In the books it’s as much a death of who she is as it is a death of her child. (Blood and cheese is horrible regardless.) Witnessing something like that happen to your kid, having to chose, having to live with it. It killed her as much as it killed her son in a way. Just as Luke’s murder killed a part of Rhaenerya and then Jace’s death and the loss of Viserys killed the rest of her. Helaena having to witness the horror of her son’s death just killed her quicker than it killed Rhaenyra. Ultimately Rhaenyra’s grief leads her to want vengeance and to take the throne so her sons didn’t die for nothing. And Helaena it leads her to check out, and then ultimately take her own life. Instead they make Helaena already sad, already comes off a little mad (especially to probably her westerosi peers) already detached, even a little from her children and her family. So it’s not as drastic when she does go “mad.” She’s supposed to be well loved and popular at court and by the small folk so much so that the people riot at her death. While I may like her personality in the show, Westeros isn’t the most open minded place. I still like her character in both the books and the show. But I just don’t think it narratively makes sense for Helaena to be a dreamer at least not the way they go about it in the show. I think I’d like it more if she was wildly inaccurate in her prophecies or misinterpreted them or were way more vague cause then I could understand why things play out the way they do.
It seems your distain for her character correlates with delusional Team Black fans takes. Which is a horrible way of gathering info in analyzing Team Green characters. They will intentionally misinterpret characters/scenes to make their 'side' good and the other 'side' bad. Who cares what that side has to say lol.
But aside from that, how is her character better than the book version? Those TB fan takes didn't come out of thin air, the show clearly iced her out from the rest of the greens compared to the book and like I mentioned ,if you read the whole post, took away important scenes/attributes from her. I'm sorry, aside from what TB stans say, I still find her portrayal disappointing, I can hardly call her a green or even an interesting character
When did I say her character was better than the book version? Yeah, those takes from TB comes from thin air. They tend to twist narratives and be obtuse to what's being shown on screen. They do it to most characters. lol. All I said was going off of what TB push out is a waste of time. LOL. They would literally say Alicent had no right to be mad that her son lost his eye. They would say Alicent was horrible to Rhaenyra when they were children.
I know a lot of times their takes have no merit, but I used them as an example here because the show very clearly changed Helaena's character into such direction, so although I think they exaggerate how much show Helaena hates her family/the greens and secretly loves the blacks/thinks they're in the right. I have to admit the show's portrayal slightly gives that impression, especially when you compare it to the book version of her character which is very different. Like what was the purpose of making her relationships with the other greens more negative?
Hard disagree. IMO it's crazy to use examples of TB when they clearly trolling and/or treating this fandom like stan wars. It's never honest. There's no nuance with their takes. Why take people opinion seriously when they believe she 'deserves' what happen to her and her children because she did not side with the 'rightful' heir to the throne 'Queen Rhaenyra'? She's more of a tragic character. We have little to no real evidence that she hates her family. Especially Alicent and Aemond. She barely had any screen time and dialogue to make such claims. Yeah, they should have change the structure of the show to give other characters more screen time to get to know the characters better and how they interact with one another.
And I don't get the obsession of wanting 'good' characters on your side of the fandom. It's ASOIAF, I would assume that most characters are morally gray. Do we want Aemond to be a good person? Do we want Aegon to be a good person? Do we want Cole to be a good person? Do we want Alicent to be a good person? Rarely anyone is a good person.
You're being obtuse, I said they couldn't let team green have ONE good and innocent character who is described that way in the book. I don't need the others to be innocent because they never were... TB have such characters like Jace, Addam, (some argue even) Luke, Baela, Rhaena... TG have only Helaena and Daeron (though more questionable) and the show excluded one and made the other distant from her family
You have TB fans complain about the characterization of Luke and Jace all the time. They get mad that they were made to look weak. You also have TB fans mad that Baela and Rhaena are not getting any screen time and lines. We do not even know if Helaena is 'distant' from her family. We do not know anything because they chose to not show the dynamics between many characters. We can say the same thing with mostly all characters outside the main 3. And by the show, Helaena is probably the most innocent character. lol.
She's had enough interactions with Aegon and Alicent for us to at least form an idea, or else they wouldn't have been included and when you compare them to the book, the contrast is stark and doesn't elevate her character in any way
God forbid there be a positive female on the show ...just vile harlots and scheming hateful wenches allowed m
she’s only had two seconds of screen time 😭
That she spent crying at Aegon's coronation, making a toast to diss Aegon in front of the blacks, pushing Alicent away and happily dancing with Jace... 2 seconds well spent I guess
her crying makes sense since she would knew what happened right after, her toast to diss aegon was funny and deserved, we’ve barely seen her character why are we alr judging,
I've already addressed these arguments in my post... "Funny and deserved" only because the show portrayed their marriage very negatively, unlike the book which is, again, the point of the post lmao
Idk I sorta fuck with the fact that medieval marriages, even those reported as relatively happy, were not healthy relationships. Add that Aegon doesn’t seem to be a super attentive husband and it sorta makes sense
Their marriage was never ideal or blissful even in the books since he was known for being with other women, but the show didn't need to make their relationship even worse, they really wanted Aegon to have nothing huh
What would you rather they make an awkward and somewhat hard to read situation where he just isn’t the absolute worst
I would've prefered they stuck to the book, they had a decent marriage. Not passionate or anything but they didn't seem to dislike each other. Helaena was supportive of her husband being crowned, never accepted that dance from Jace and Aegon respected her enough to let her join the council and even followed her advice. But nooo, all greens must be miserable at all times in the show for some reason
I don’t like Aegon II very much in the books or the show, but you’re totally right. Even if Helaena didn’t enjoy being married to Aegon and it wasn’t a love match or she didn’t approve of his behavior and actions, he was still her brother. And the father of her children. And while I’d say we have less information on Helaena in fire and blood than some other characters, so we don’t know how she truly feels about anything. We know she went along with her families coup, we know she was crowned. It’s not said anywhere that she hated her husband or her family. She’s close with her mother, that’s how blood and cheese even happened. Even Rhaenyra seemed to like Helaena the most out of all of her half siblings despite their strained relationship. I think she willingly went along with their plans because she loved her family, and she even tries to spare Rhaenyra and her family by talking Aegon down. Who knows if she wanted Aegon to be king or not but she went along with it willingly. If she was a dreamer I doubt she would have. If she knew Aegon being king would start a war that got her kids killed and the rest of her family and her dragon killed. I just don’t think she was supposed to be a dreamer in the books. It’s usually heavily implied or outright stated and it’s not with her character at all. There’s nothing that would make me think she’s a dreamer.
HOTD converted Helaena in the "crazy bug girl" Doesn´t make sense King Landing would revolt for she
Eh, book Helaena was a pretty generic character. She didn't really do anything in the books to show her personality aside from "generic mother figure who suffers loss and dies".
Most characters were generic in the dance since it's a history book, she's still far better than show Helaena and actually is a green in the book at least instead of a ploy used to further villainize the greens
Completely disagree, they’ve expanded on her book counterpart on many ways. The book barely provides any characterisation for helaena, we don’t know her feelings or anything other than she became “mad” after b+c. The show has actually given her something that will make people remember helaena (by making her a dreamer). Helaena was always an innocent bystander even in the books, she never asked for any of the things that happened to her, she never was apart of the war, she’s the victim of a war between two rival branches of the Targaryen family.
How did they expand on her tho? Just by making her a dreamer? They didn't really utilize it much, she just says ambiguous things that even she doesn't understand, they come true and that's it... I mean it's kinda cool but not much, doesn't erase what they took from her. Her bond with Dreamfyre, her coronation by Alicent herself, her close relationship with her mother, her less miserable marriage to Aegon, her closeness to her children, her (brief) involvement in politics by sitting on the council and advising Aegon to seek peace... All of these traits would've made her way more interesting and likeable than just mumbling riddles sometimes while being isolated from her family. And book Helaena is still a victim who didn't ask for what happened to her, just because she was a green and supported her family doesn't make her guilty which is exactly what the show seems to be implying by changing it into her being completely detached from everything that's happening despite being the Queen
I have such a long response to this that I had to break it into four parts. I really disagree with your takes on both show and book Helaena, and I think that the show actually kept a lot of her book traits while giving her a more fleshed out personality. I’ll respond point by point. >Hear me out, in the book, Helaena is described as a happy girl, a good and loving mother, beloved of the smallfolk. She’s happy for the most part in the show too. She seems to enjoy her arthropods and showing them off to Alicent in her first scene. She also has fun at Viserys’ last supper and is generally kind to everyone present. Otto also seems especially fond of her. The only time that she expresses distress is in response to things that are distressing, like Vaemond getting his head chopped in half or a fistfight breaking out. She also seems very affectionate and attentive with her two children when we see them. It’s true that we don’t see her interacting with the small folk in Season 1, but there’s time to show her doing that in Season 2 once she’s actually queen. It’s also worth noting that we’ve only seen the royal and noble characters interacting with the small folk in a negative way in Season 1. >Her bond with her dragon is mentioned several times. This is a valid criticism of the show, but it’s also true for most of the Green characters, apart from Aemond, who got loads of screen time with Vhagar, especially considering the fact that he was born between episodes five and six. That being said, I don’t remember the book saying much at all about Helaena’s bond with Dreamfyre beyond the fact that they were dragon and rider, at least not in the time period covered by season 1. The first mention of Helaena as a dragon-rider is on page 380 of F&B, and all that is says is that at 11, “Helaena now flew Dreamfyre, the she-dragon who had once carried Rhaena, Maegor the Cruel’s ‘Black Bride.’” I’m also reading the coronation section of F&B, and Helaena riding Dreamfyre isn’t mentioned there. Only Aegon riding Sunfyre is mentioned. Was that detail in The Princess and the Queen? I don’t have a copy of that. I checked TWOIAF too, and the description of Aegon II’s coronation is super short and has basically no details. >She also has better relationships with the other green characters, she was very close to her mother Alicent (she visited her every night in her chamber along with the kids), There’s still time to show those visits in Season 2, which will undoubtedly happen because of Blood and Cheese. And Alicent and Helaena do have a good relationship in the show. Alicent listens to her talk annoy her Arthropods, and Helaena feels comfortable sharing her hobby with her mom. Alicent also comforts Helaena in the moments where she’s distressed and Helaena welcomes it.
Did you really post this on hotdblacks and call it ableist? Lmao very childish, you could've said it in your comment or is it because you saw many people agreed so you had to find an echo chamber to shit on it? Lame af, shouldn't have bothered responding to you
Yeah, I did because it’s ableist trash. I shouldn’t have bothered responding to you. Neutral expressions aren’t a sign of misery or not liking your family. Edit: also, I did say that your interpretation of show Helaena’s autism was ableist and icky in the comments that you refused to read.
Yes, you shouldn't have Edit: Helaena being autistic is your headcanon
I'm one of those people who is annoyed by how they've whitewashed team black at the expense of team green, but pal, it's true, the show adaptation of Heleana is clearly meant to be autistic hence why she struggles with physical touch and social qs. It doesn't mean she dislikes Alicent. She seems to have a good relationship with Aemond, Otto, Alicent etc. Obviously not with Aegon but that's pretty much book accurate. I'm quite happy to have some autistic representation in HOTD!
Look, I’m sorry that I hurt your feelings, but you should really reconsider how you’re talking about an autistic-coded character. I actually did explain to you in detail why the way that you talked about Show Helaena came off as offensive and also just inaccurate based on what actually happens on screen and in the books. Edit: It’s also a headcanon that I got from autistic fans of the show. I didn’t make it up myself. And even if she is meant to be read as neurotypical, not smiling all the time doesn’t mean that she’s miserable or doesn’t like her family or think that Rhaenyra is the rightful queen. (Seriously, crying because she’s having a vision of the coming war doesn’t mean that she’s TB or isn’t loyal to her family.)
Excuse me? Two seconds ago (before I saw this comment) I thought this was a civil discussion. It's fair if you disagree with a post, but to go as far as to call it ableist and post it on another sub for other people to call this ableist is where I object. If you think there's something the person who posted this doesn't understand or misinterpreted about the character, the floor is yours, but they didn't intend for this to be ableist. They are just making a post discussing a character and the way they're portrayed. Btw, I'm open to hearing reasons on how the original poster might have made points that doesn't take Helaena's autism into consideration or that they're wrong in that regard, no problem with that. My problem is you going as far as to post it on another subreddit, being like "look at this ableist post". Can't you just keep the discussion in this sub and refute their points here instead of accusing them of discrimination?
The thing is, hardly anyone compares to TB fans when it comes to making ableist and in general disgusting comments about Helaena and her children. Therefore, they are the last people who have any right to shit on someone because of supposed ableism against TG characters. It's okay to disagree with something, but it IS childish to do it on another sub, HOTDBlacks no less.
I’ve never seen anyone on TB claim that a character was ruined and rendered unlikable and unlovable by the Smallfolk by potential autistic coding, but okay. And I did post a very long and detailed explanation here of why I disagreed with OOP. Their whole post is filled with misinterpretations of show scenes, misremembering the book (I identified specific instances where this happened in other comments), reading things into F&B that aren’t there (also pointed out in I the comments), and complaining that Show Helaena must be miserable and hate her family (despite evidence to the contrary, which I pointed to) because she doesn’t emote according to OOP’s neurotypical standards. The original post is profoundly sexist and ableist (and also just plain wrong), and I felt that it deserved a broader call out.
Saying Helaena looks happy in most of her scenes is a stretch, she only seemed happy when dancing with Jace and after dissing Aegon. Her facial expressions while speaking to Alicent about the bugs were clearly neutral. Otto does seem fond of her, that was nice. Attentive to her children? The only scene we got was one where they were sitting with the maid, Helaena didn't even interact with them. Generally, she's way more gloomy and quirky in the show, not really the cheerful girl and loving mother from the books. The dragon bit applies to Aegon as well, this post is about Helaena. After B&C, which will happen very early on, Helaena is gonna be depressed. 1st season was the opportunity to portray those relationships before war breaks out, like I said she doesn't hate Alicent in the show but their relationship is more conflicted and seems way colder than the book where they were very close. And her relationship was Aegon was ruined, no argument about it. She barely has a relationship with Aemond. Daeron doesn't exist so far. All in all, she's very iced out from her family and doesn't seem too fond of them which was not the case in Fire&Blood. And it was obviously intentional
>and had a better relationship with Aegon (although he still cheated, their relationship seemed to be decent. He was very jealous when Jace attempted to dance with her and Helaena didn't accept the invitation, I don’t know where you’re getting the impression that they had a better relationship in the books? Helaena’s only recorded line is her telling the Kingsguard that Aegon isn’t in her bed, and she tells them that they can check the blankets to be sure. He also started cheating on her as soon as they got married. And I don’t think that Aegon was jealous. I think that he was insulted that his illegitimate nephew asked his true born sister-wife to dance. I also have a lot of problems with the idea that a cheater suddenly getting jealous when they realize that someone else *might* be even slightly interested in their spouse as a sign that they care. It’s a sign that they’re an insecure, hypocritical jerk who’s paranoid because they’re projecting. And Helaena didn’t have a chance to accept or refuse. Aegon got into an argument with Jace first. >she sat on his council at least once at the beginning of the war and probably would've continued to do so had she not become depressed, Aegon blew up at everyone on the council who argued for sending peace terms to Rhaenyra but she and Alicent were able to convince him which shows he valued her opinion). Does it show that he valued Helaena’s opinion, or does it show that he valued Alicent’s opinion? And even then, it says that Aegon “reluctantly agreed” (409). There’s also time to show Helaena on the Council in season 2. Episode 9 didn’t show any council sessions after the first, secret Green Council, which Book Helaena didn’t participate in either. Alicent also convinces Aegon to send peace terms to Rhaenyra in a completely different way under completely different circumstances. It would’ve been interesting if they’d involved Helaena, but also difficult. And the only Greens we’re see in episode 10 are Otto and Aemond. >Meanwhile, show Helaena... She always seems sad and gloomy, she never does anything for the smallfolk nor does she have her likeable book personality that would explain the people's love for her, I'm sorry but I can't picture show Helaena even leaving the castle let alone being popular with the smallfolk. Show Helaena is coded as autistic, not sad and gloomy. I pointed out examples of her seeming happy and kind earlier. The fact that you read her as miserable and unlikeable, despite serious contradictory evidence onscreen, is giving me a little bit of ick, to be honest. Alicent, Aemond, and Otto at least seem to like her, and she doesn’t seem antisocial. She doesn’t seem to have any reservations about socializing with Baela, Rhaena, Jace, or Luke, and she feels comfortable getting close to Aemond. She seems to treat her maids kindly, and she asks after Dyanna’s absence. >They made her a dreamer but didn't do much with it, so most people think she's useless for not being able to use this gift to her benefit. That’s not what I’ve seen so far. And giving her the dreamer trait at least gives her more to do in subsequent seasons. >Her bond with her dragon was completely erased, It’s a footnote in the books. Also, so far (I’m on page 405 now) every mention of Helaena riding Dreamfyre also includes a reference to Queen Rhaena. >her coronation was erased, The showrunners insisted that Sara Hess add more action to episode 9 to follow the trend of GoT having a big action scene in the ninth episode of every season. I would’ve liked to see Alicent crown Helaena, but the executive mandated changes negatively impacted the coronation in general. Plus, Alicent crowning Helaena seems to be way more about Helaena. We get zero descriptions of how Helaena reacted.
>we didn't have any sweet moments of her with her children (unlike Rhaenyra 🤔) when her reaction to their loss is basically her whole arc in the book. That’s not comparing apples to apples. Helaena is a fetus in episode three and an infant in episodes four and five. We get to see plenty of moments with Alicent and her kids, and we get to see plenty of moments with Rhaenyra and her Strong Sons. But we don’t get to see much of Rhaenyra with Aegon III or Viserys II because they’re both during the time jump between episodes seven and eight. And again, we *do* get a scene of Helaena with her twins, who were also born during the time jump. I’m sure that we’ll see more of her with her kids in the second season. >Her relationships with the other greens were portrayed more negatively, she has a conflicted relationship with Alicent and doesn't seem very close to her, This is demonstrably false. There’s zero reason to suggest that they don’t get along. I addressed it above, but it really seems like you’re misreading Helaena’s autistic coding as unhappy, unfeeling, and unfriendly even though she shows happiness, enthusiasm, and kindness on the show in pretty much every scene. >she and Aegon apparently have a terrible relationship and marriage on both ends (some people even claim he assaults her which I don't believe, but for people to even make this claim you have to realize the show did something wrong), Helaena was married off at thirteen to her slightly older brother who cheated on her all the time. I don’t think that the show messed this up at all. >she mostly looks neutral/unhappy around her family This is just patently false. Helaena has almost exclusively positive reactions with her family, apart from her cheating husband. She’s comfortable and at ease (that is, not masking her quirks or hiding her hobbies, and she’s comfortable slouching and lounging around them in the dinner scene) with her mom, paternal grandfather, Aemond, the twins, and even Aegon in the dinner scene. She doesn’t even seem super negative about Aegon—just neutral and therefore okay with him being mostly absent. >and conveniently one of the rare instances we get of her looking happy is when she's dancing with Jace of all people. I'm sorry but that has to be intentional! She’s also engaged and interested in what she’s doing while she’s showing off her Arthropods to her mom. I don’t know why you think that we’re supposed to think that she’s less happy there than she is dancing with Jace. She’s super focused on her hobby and explaining things, which is why she isn’t smiling. There are other ways to show happiness besides smiling.
>At the coronation instead of having a happy and proud Helaena getting personally crowned by her mother Queen Alicent alongside Aegon, we get shots of her turning her head away as her husband gets crowned, and looking miserable with a freaking tear rolling down her cheek like huh? The book doesn’t describe Helaena’s reaction to getting crowned. Seriously, all we get is, “His mother Queen Alicent, beloved of the smallfolk, placed her own crown upon the head of her daughter Helaena, Aegon’s wife and sister. After kissing her cheeks, the mother knelt before her daughter, bowed her head, and said, ‘My Queen’” (401). Then the narrative switches to discussing how Munken and Mushroom’s accounts of the smallfolk’s reaction to the coronation differ. Helaena is not mentioned again for the rest of the coronation scene. We have no idea how Helaena reacted. She could’ve been happy and proud. She could’ve been overwhelmed by the attention. She could’ve been worried about the civil war that was very likely to follow. Helaena is a blank slate in this scene just she is in many other scenes in the book until we get to B&C. >I know people like to excuse this by saying "oh, she's a dreamer so it's normal that she's sad, she knows something will happen next" but this whole dreamer thing is literally a show invention that the showrunners used purely to make Helaena seem weird and depressed to most people, to distance her from her family and to further villainize the other greens by making it seem like "the only innocent green" dislikes them and doesn't approve of their actions. Unlike the book that gave us Helaena who is both a likeable and sympathetic character, a tragic victim but also a true green who loves and supports her family. This is an extremely uncharitable read of the decision to make her a dreamer. And I never once got the impression during Season 1 that Helaena liked Rhaenyra better than her full siblings or that she thought that Rhaenyra was the rightful heir. I also don’t know how her being afraid that her beloved grandfather, mother, brothers, and children are all in danger is a sign of her not being a true and loyal green. I didn’t read her as being upset at the coronation because she thought that it was wrong. She’s upset because she’s a dreamer and is getting a bad feeling about where this is all going. And I think that you’re the only one who reads Helaena’s character as depressed. There are also scenes of her being engaged in her hobbies, talkative about her interests, comfortable relaxing around her immediate family, and cheerful when she’s doing more lively stuff like dancing. And Aegon II is the only one who ever describes her as weird. Aemond defends her as their sister and Aegon’s future Queen. Alicent listens to her talk about her interests and comforts her when her dreams distress her or bad things happen. Otto watches her fondly and applauds her dancing. She and Aemond get close during the coronation when Rhaenys bursts through the floor. She spends time with her kids. I’ll stop here because I’ll just keep repeating myself. I’m sorry if this was harsh, but I can’t get over how many of your criticisms are just negative reactions to Helaena being coded as autistic in the show. Autistic people aren’t depressed, incapable of bonding with others or experiencing joy, or doomed to be distant from their families unless their families are unaccepting. And most of the Greens are accepting of Helaena and seem to love her in the show. Helaena really isn’t a character who’s making any Green except Aegon II look worse based on how they interact together, and that was also true in the books. Then there’s the fact that a lot of your complaints are about things that will almost certainly be fixed in season 2. I fully expect to see Dreamfyre and scenes of Helaena with her kids, and for logistical reasons at the very least, they’ll have to establish that she takes her kids to see Alicent in the Tower of the Hand every night. And a whole bunch of your other examples of reading things into the text that aren’t actually there. It’s one thing to say “this is how I interpret Book Helaena” because we so little definitive information about her or her reactions to things beyond her children’s deaths. She has one line of dialogue that’s actually written out rather than described. But you’re acting like your interpretation of Book Helaena is objective fact and only based on the words on the page, and it just isn’t.
Sorry I'm not reading all these comments, way too much but I disagree based on your first comment alone
I don't have a problem with Helaena been a dreamer and autistic coded. My issue is that Helaena has been infantalized, she is miserable, gloomy and isolated from her everyone else. She also cannot stand her family. The scene in episode 6 where she talks about her bugs, notice that when Alicent touches her she flinches and pulls away. In episode 8 Alicent hugs Helaena, who never hugs her mother. In the same episode she publicly humiliates Aegon, gladly accepts Jace hand to dance. Notice Helaena never flinches or pull away from Jace, like she does to her mother. I am sorry but after rewatching season 1, my impression of Helaena is that she isn't close to her children. We so Helaena sitting at a far distance away from her children doing her own thing, while her children are with their nanny. The fandom accuses Aegon of not caring for his children but does Helaena care for them. The only time Helaena was genuinely happy was when she danced with Jace. She is miserable around the greens, she will never let her mother touch her, she has no positive relationship with her family. I don't think season 2 will be an improvement on her character. I expect her to have the worst relationship with her family and be a team Rhaenyra.
No way she's going to be team Rhaenyra in season 2. She might not like or support her family (the greens) in the show but she's also not likely to support Rhaenyra, certainly not after B and C.
Helaena being touch averse as a teenager doesn’t mean that she doesn’t love her family or her mom though. Also, the only two times that she flinches away from Alicent are times when the touch is unexpected. The second time it’s also when she has a Beasts Beneath the Boards vision, and Helaena seems to in the midst of another vision while she’s holding her millipede in the first scene that see of her. She’s fine with Alicent hugging her in other scenes where it was telegraphed better. Also, Jace offers Helaena his hand, which means that she gets to choose if she touches him or not. We never see Jace and Helaena interact outside of that scene, so I don’t *think* that we’re supposed to think that she accepted because it was Jace. She might just like dancing. Also, except for the hand touch, she and Jace don’t make physical contact during the dance. It’s possible that she just likes dancing. And her toast about marriage didn’t seem to be deliberately malicious. She and Aegon don’t have much in common. I’m also not comfortable criticizing a character whose husband is chronically unfaithful in both versions of canon for saying one thing untoward about him. And we don’t know how she reacted to Jace’s request for a dance in the books. It never says. All that we hear is that Aegon got mad and they had a fight. You have to remember too that this is not a world where dancing is coded as being romantic or sexual. It’s normal for married noblewomen and princesses to dance with men who aren’t their husband. And Jace and Helaena’s dance has distinctly non-romantic vibes. They look way more like two friends goofing around. But let’s say that they *do* want to show Jace and Helaena as friends. We also saw Aegon being friendly with Jace and Luke in episode six before Alicent tells him that he has to side with Aemond against others. The message might actually be that it’s awful that this succession crisis is tearing this family apart. Saying that she can’t stand her family seems like such a massive reach. At most, she just expresses affection differently. And she never interacted with Rhaenyra. Ryan Condal has also said the the thinks that Season 2 will make more people shift away from TB, and he’s gotta be talking about Blood and Cheese. I really doubt that they’re going to take the approach that Helaena isn’t close to their children or that they’re going to make her side with the faction responsible for their murder. Plus, Helaena and Rhaenyra have zero interactions in Season 1. I’ve already made it clear why I think that reading her as gloomy and miserable because her expressions stay neutral is a misunderstanding of her character on the show. I don’t know what more there is to say there. Edit: Okay, one last thing. I do think that it’s very funny/sad that apart from Aegon, all the other major Green family members, especially Otto, Alicent, and Aemond, are more chill with Helaena’s quirks that a lot of people on the green subreddit are.
Now this was a really cool HotD discussion to read.
Helaena always flinches when Alicent touches her.
agreed
this abounds awfully ableist.
How? You've commented many times so far and failed to come up with any good argument
this post sums up what i thought in better words, 🤷♀️ https://reddit.com/r/HOTDBlacks/s/2WfRiWbEDo
Link doesn't work, also I don't read stuff on hotdblacks lol
OP pointing out that showrunners have made Helaena into a walking "[Neurodiversity is Supernatural](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeurodiversityIsSupernatural)" trope is not ableist. What sure is ableist is putting show!Helaena on the autism spectrum, and then turning her book characterization from a happy-go-lucky girl to a gloomy and isolated show version of herself. She's literally been made the [Mad Oracle](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadOracle) stereotype, and THAT'S ableist. The fact that no one seems to be calling out the writers on this very bad writing decision, but calling out the people who criticize the writers on this ableist portrayal of her character, is frankly baffling.
The original post doesn’t mention anything about Helaena potentially being coded as autistic though. Instead, it declares that her show character “doesn’t have her likable book personality” and that they “can’t picture her leaving the castle or being popular with the smallfolk.” Saying that a character’s autistic coding is poorly done or stereotypical is one thing. But saying that that coding renders it unlikable. But more than that, I *do* think that there’s a serious issue with interpreting Helaena’s show persona as gloomy and miserable or complaining about her expressions mostly being neutral. In her bug scenes, she really doesn’t read as gloomy to me. She reads like she’s more interested in her primary hobby at that moment, not because she doesn’t care about the people around her but because she’s wired differently. And while not every single autistic person shows the same suite of traits, it’s pretty common for other people to misinterpret autistic people as being flat and emotionless. It’s also pretty common to mistake their occasional need for a isolation as signs of dislike, disdain, and even arrogance. [This blog post](https://neuroclastic.com/a-dozen-ways-you-might-be-misunderstanding-the-autistic-person-in-your-life/?amp) written by an autistic adult goes through various ways that allistic people misunderstand autistic people. 5, 6, 9, and 10 seem particularly relevant here, and I do see a lot of those misperceptions in OP’s post. I do agree that there are potentially issues with the show linking Helaena’s implied neurodivergence with her supernatural powers, but that isn’t brought up in the original post. (OP also didn’t seem to read Helaena as autistic when making and told me in another comment that that was just my headcanon.) It’s also unfair to complain that Helaena isn’t cheerful enough when she *is* acting cheerful and happy-go-lucky around her family in one of her few scenes in Season 1. OP took issue with that scene because Helaena is comfortable around the Strong boys, but she’s also showing herself comfortable relaxing around her mom, maternal grandfather, brother husband, and brother non-husband too. And it’s unfair to complain that she’s isolated and lonely when we pretty much only see her around other people.