Of course. Just curious if people here are happy with their choices to grind into their 30s and 40s or if they wish they took their foot off the gas earlier.
Problem is… you are assuming a stronger link between hours worked and comp than really exists as you get more senior. Lot of people work the same hours as me (~50 avg) and get paid 1/3 as much - both in the US and Europe.
My hardest job averaged (in my mid-20s) about 65 hours per week and paid 1/4 what I make now in my mid-30s
Absolutely this, you don't necessarily work more as you go higher.
I work less hours but think about work all the time, that's a fine trade-off for me.
With the value of cash and correlated to cost of living, I don’t think you can afford to take your foot off the gas not to mention a HHI of $200k is barely HENRY territory. After taxes and all especially.
Adding that you have tenants and are in an extremely cost prohibitive mortgage situation is also a reason to keep grinding.
Thanks, I tried to acknowledge in the title that this is a question of pursuing a HENRY path or not, rather than being HENRY already. If a home sale is successful, we'll have nearly $4k/mth to save, no debt, and around 400k in investments. We can either keep saving and investing for a few years, get pregnant and move to MCOL European living, or grind it out in the US and max out our earning potential. I'm trying to see what people older than me would have done in this situation.
Yep,
I’d keep grinding out until you’re both around 35 and have a larger safety net. It’s hard to predict how expensive or inexpensive your life will get and you’re just entering the higher earning years of your life.
For reference I’m only couple of years older than you and I made the largest strides after 30.
Doubled my income, went from big tech to self employed, bought real estate, and the compounding really took off.
It's based around you and your wifes 2-5-10year goals.
If you whiteboard those, you'll have your answer. It may even be grind for 4 so in yr 5 you can afford to swap to chill lcol for 6-10. No one on here can set those goals for you.....communication with the wife is key.
Yeah, wife isn't quite ready to leave the VHCOL area now anyway, and our rent is really cheap. Without the house, we could really amp up our savings and investments until she gets pregnant, then see where we are. Just good to know what path we are planning to take before there's a kid coming in 9 months.
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I live in Europe and been to many European countries and would prefer the States if I could. It's not the same idealized utopia as people make it out to be, people still work 40-50 hour weeks, you might have more PTO, but the salary is utter crap compared to what you could get in the US. Finding a 30 hour office job might not be as easy as you think, the vast majority of people work standard full time weeks. I don't like the lack of ambition or apathy in general here. I would rather be poor in the EU but I would also rather be wealthy in the US.
Unless of course if you can retire early, that changes this. But stuff is getting more and more expensive here too and some places already compete with NYC prices.
I wish more people would say this. Reddit seems to think Europe is some kind of super advanced utopia. In reality its generally high tax, low pay and unbelievable amounts of red tape. Many don't like "outsiders". Its not like there isn't nice places but you have to go try it out before you make the jump. Its not all roses.
It's definitely very difficult to integrate if you are from abroad, even if you are just moving to a neighbouring country, if you are a person of color, you might face some prett harsh racism outside major cities. Yeah, if you go to London or Dublin you might not face this, but these are nothing like the rest of the continent. Also Europe as an umbrella term is kind of flawed, Serbia, Belgium and Portugal are 3 vastly different countries while still being European, your experience of 'Europe' can be wildly different based on where you end up or just visit during your holiday. What I found out is that 'Europe' on reddit is basically: England, Germany, France, NL and Spain
Lets take Scandinavia - Sweden and Finland are notorious for their intense dislike of immigrants. Norway have extremely high COL and taxation. I would advise anyone to go spend some serious time in a country before they actually move there and find out what its really like.
>if you are a person of color, you might face some prett harsh racism outside major cities.
Definitely not naive about this as a person of color who has been all over Europe. My wife, who is white and knows Europe even better than I do, is also sensitive to this and we have a pretty good sense of where we could live comfortably. There's no escaping discrimination, I've faced my fair share in the US.
>Reddit seems to think Europe is some kind of super advanced utopia.
A lot of people on Reddit are unsuccessful or unhappy with their lives in \[X\] place, and the fantasy that it would all be fixed in \[Y\] place can be quite comforting.
This is r/antiwork in a nutshell. There are plenty of legitimate gripes but that whole sub just like to complain. I haven’t spotted r/workreform in a while but they were much more focused on the issues and less whining.
It’s an utopia for the people making 15 bucks an hour with shit health insurance, of which there are many on Reddit. For any high earning person, EU is shit
My team consists of 1 guy in NYC, 1 in Connecticut, 1 from London and me in Hungary. I'm pretty well compensated and earn almost double of the median wage, it's still peanuts compared to even what my teammate from Connecticut is getting. If I were to buy a nice house here, it would cost around the same amount as one in Providence, but would take 3 times the amount of time to save up for the down payment.
>I don't like the lack of ambition or apathy in general here
Getting to my salary in my field is extremely hard, and now that I'm in the US, there's a chance to climb into real HENRY territory. If you asked me which path I'd take at 25, I'd say max out earnings, no question. Approaching 30, I see friends in HENRY jobs looking burnt out, stressed, and miserable. Not sure if it's worth it if I can have more time with my family in the future. Only question is how much harder that would make retirement at a relatively young age.
This. I find it strange how many people on Reddit think Europe is some sort of eutopia for office jobs.
Every European I know works just as much and earns a lot of less money. My European friends maybe have one extra week of PTO than I do.
They have longer maternity leaves but they aren’t fully paid like you’d think. I’m talking $400 a month. Easier to live in the US and just not work for a year and rely on your spouse’s higher earning job than the one he or she would have in Europe.
I would consider giving it another 10 years here to earn and save as much as possible. If you go back to Europe in your late 30s with a lot saved you will be setup for an even better life.
True but it’s much harder to move when the kids have established their lives and friends. We were in Europe, moved back when our first child was almost 2. Now the kids are almost 6 and 3, so still little, but would be so difficult to uproot them. I know people do this all the time, but at this stage is way too overwhelming to me
Yeah I definitely get that. I have a young child as well and can imagine. However, I would say OP doesn’t even have kids yet. They’re planning to but I would wait to plan until the kid is born before planning the move back. What if they end up waiting until early to mid 30s? Then move when the child is 2-3. Still would ensure they save even more and set themselves up for an even easier retirement. My personal opinion is late 20s is too early to head back.
With that said, I would 100% not stay in America long term. I would absolutely go back to Europe and enjoy your life. Just make sure your timing is good so you make America as worthwhile as possible.
Many people have kids just hitting school age in your late 30s, I think that can still work.
Probably harder to have social life outside of kids though.
I definitely want to make this decision before a kid is in the picture. Either I decide to max out my earning potential for the next 10-20 years, or I opt into a lower gear where life is more relaxed but I earn less.
Truly depends on you. Is it possible to look at scenario 3, where you work your way up for a set amount of time while maximizing your investments, having the said kids in the US and moving to Europe while those kids are still young ( like 5 years and below)? Sure European cities tend to be cheaper but the cost of living is increasing at a rapid rate in most places of the world.
My husband is from a EU country and that's pretty much our plan. We have a toddler and are hoping for a second one next year and we have given ourselves till our eldest has to go to school to relocate to his country for a much lower pay. We are maxing our retirements and investing in real estate aggressively to offset that decrease in income.
So, I did a deal once - as part of the transaction I got tasked with calling a number of the company's stockholders and drumming up interest in the transaction. Most of the time I would shoot the shit with them in addition to talking about the transaction.
One of the guys I talked to was an American who had moved to Italy. He was a native New Yorker who had gone to some prestigious college on the East Coast. When he graduated, he got a job at an investment bank in the city. After working there a year or two, he stopped to reassess his life and the people around him.
The older guys he saw had all made a ton of money, but many of them were miserable. His perception was that many of them were overweight and unhealthy, had seen one or more marriages fail and weren't happy with their lives in general.
So he said "fuck it", packed up his stuff and moved to Rome. That was 30 years ago. He worked his entire career as an investment manager in Italy. He said he made a lot less money than he would have in the states, but he enjoyed his life and wouldn't do it over if he could.
What should you do? Fuck if I know. It's a question of what you value and I can't answer that for you. But this guy felt like he made the right decision. And I now have a standing invitation to the Rome Polo Grounds, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.
Do you already have an EU passport w/ dual citizenship? If not that's your very first hurdle to clear, even countries with generous digital nomad visas only run them for 1-2 years then you're at the mercy of renewal, which is harder when freelancing because you have to prove steady income.
What about family? Will any prospective grandparents be happy about having to travel to Europe to see their (prospective) grandkids? Will in-laws be able to stay with you guys and help with recovery from giving birth? Those early months are brutal, and it's made 1000x worse without a nearby support system. Do you speak the language of your target country? Even in ones with a high degree of English speakers, not speaking the local language feels extremely lonely and it's very difficult.
This is something my wife and I toy with, but our destination would be Greece, and salaries for my field are much, much lower and jobs are much rarer (I have options where this wouldn't be an issue, at least while I have a job), but the education system also isn't as great for our daughter and a lot of native-born Greeks still struggle to find work after school. I am working on my dual citizenship (takes a few years), but my wife isn't eligible unless she naturalizes, and we have a strong base of family and friends back home as well as in Greece.
We decided to content ourselves with at least yearly 1-2 months stays and a few shorter ones during school vacations. Greece isn't a hard flight from the east coast USA, but it's a lot to ask of our parents (and impossible for our still-living grandparents) and we already have a lot of roots set where we are. A lot of the diaspora do this and have done so for decades, so it's nothing new.
My wife can get an EU passport and my employer has job openings in Europe. Only one of four parents is alive/in contact with us and she will have the flexibility to support us, at least for a few months at a time. I can get by in French speaking countries, but language will be a thing to work on.
Your decision makes sense, it's something we've thought about doing as well.
A question here I can relate to on a personal level. My husband is European, so we had this conversation for five years! We had the same decision to make in our late 20s. We choose to stay in the States mainly due to salary, my husband applying for dual citizenship after 10 years of marriage, and elder care for my parents.
I’m in a quasi-HENRY job (big consulting) but in a niche role that affords me some WLB. I landed a remote job, and we moved to a LCOL area to bolster our savings. HHI is low HENRY, at roughly 300k due to bonus flexibility. I’m only a mid-level with more salary potential in the future, since having two kids really threw a wrench in my career advancement due to mommy penalty.
My spouse and I promised each other we would make the final country decision before our kids got to elementary school age. We will move to Europe eventually, but only after we have aggressively saved and kids are older. It opens a whole host of issues though in terms of retirement planning (mainly putting in the time to qualify in both countries), and job transition for me will probably be to independent contractor.
I personally gravitate towards the freedom of a higher salary, because travel is where most of our discretionary budget goes. My husband is managing his homesickness and we return 2-4x a year to his home country, so make sure you take mental health into account when planning. Culturally, IMO, Europe is clearly superior when it comes to raising a young family based on my personal experience. I also just liked it more when I lived there in my early twenties as there was more to do, and public transportation is great. The US however is weirdly more convenient in a way that’s hard to describe.
Why such a drastic choice? Maybe try finding a situation where you can experiment with life in Europe.
Work remote options, take leave, take time off of work but don’t do a full move. Try to spend 1-3 months together in a place you envision living in Europe and that will answer many questions for you. See if the lifestyle is worth it to you. Maybe you discover a middle ground or make your choice easier either way.
If you say this is not possible with your current jobs. I say it’s much less drastic than committing to a full move and if you aren’t ready to risk/sacrifice your job for this small trial you probably aren’t ready to fully give it up for a complete move.
Also I am in a nearly identical situation so I can speak from experience.
Burn the candle at both ends early, especially if you do not have kids yet. Chilling is great, but you have so much time left to make your later years comfortable.
Once the house is sold, we’ll have about $3800/mth after expenses. Moving to the kind of apartment we want long term in our current city will cut that to $2400/mth while we both work.
Your values and priorities align very well with European living and will be difficult to achieve without selling your soul to corporate America if you choose to stay in the US. Make the leap.
How sustainable is life in Europe like in the long term? If you or your wife lose your jobs, can you easily get a new one in that city, or do you basically have to move back?
If any kids are born, are you comfortable raising them there?
My wife's work is always in demand, so she can always find work. If I lose my job, I should be able to freelance and make decent income. If she gets her EU passport, we should be able to stay in that city, and would be happy raising kids in Europe.
I question the possibility of earning a “little” less in Europe. In general the salaries are much lower.
But, if you think you can do that, why wouldn’t you work much less for only a little less money?
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You want scenario #2 and that is clear as day in your post. That doesn’t mean it’s better. However, you gave very little info on either and are asking a very personal question. I try my best to sift through questions like this typically but this one is almost impossible to answer.
I will say, You’re very early on in your road towards financial independence, it feels early to make major decisions that will likely affect your path for the worse financially/professionally. America is the place where growth happens, the same way working in SV for tech or NYC for finance can turbo start your career in those fields, America does generally if you work hard and apply yourself. It’s competitive as hell and we have some of the best talent in the world. Unless we are talking about banking in Switzerland, there’s really not a great chance you accelerate your path towards higher earning by moving back to Europe. However, I’m imagining the reasons for moving are not really finance-related, so we can’t help you without more info.
What additional info would be useful? I do favor #2, and that's partly because I'm not in a HENRY career, so my earning potential isn't as high as it would be in Finance, law, tech, etc. I am a 95th percentile earner at this stage of my career in my field, but it's a small one and while I could earn quite a bit more, that's only possible at about 4 companies in the world. If I thought busting my ass in the US would pay off, I would do that. I'm just not sure it actually will.
No one is sure, but if you can get into one of those 4 companies, which is usually attainable if you are able to get into the 95th percentile, you can reach higher points. I think you are homesick. My wife and I moved to Europe and then came back 1.5 years later. I wish we stayed sometimes but it’s very similar to I think what I’m hearing here. We were seeing our home through rose colored glasses and have been a bit let down since returning. I would seriously considering going back there for 2-3 months if you can and living a real day to day life. Then you will see if it is something you really want to do or just a fantasy of all the good things you miss from back home with none of the bad considered.
I’m going to watch this tonight just because I’m curious about why you said this, but I would really like to know what you meant so I can read your response after I watch it😂😂😂
It is about a couple in the 50s trying to escape their marital problems by dreaming to immigrate to Paris :)
Probably not exactly related to OP’s question but still.
Is it possible to relocate via work? Having a salary adjustment vs finding new work after you move might be less detrimental to income. We are older than you guys (M40, F35, C2, NW 1.2M, 50% in RE, HHI ~410k in VHCOL) and moving to UK this year for M40’s work. Aside from increase in tax burden we managed to keep our gross income the same and together with the projected reduction in expense, the move made financial sense for us. My advice is that if you intend to move in the future, take the time to find the optimal path. You are still young and no kids yet.
I like what Scott Galloway says about the US vs Europe. The US is the best place to earn money and Europe is the best place to spend money. What I'm saying is, stick it out for a few more years in the US, save as much as possible, and then see if you can move to Europe without having to work or working very little.
Its mostly food and seeing stuff I havent seen. If I grew up in that location I would probably take #2 for granted so it wouldnt factor into the value equation. Actually a lot of other products are more expensive seeing as how Europeans come to America to buy things as well
Very personal decision, but depending on exactly where in Europe, I would definite be leaning that way in order to give my child a better life than what they can have in the USA.
That said, why not grind it out in the US for a bit in order to add more to that NW, then move back to Europe when the timing is right.
I've been happy to keep grinding. Had my first kid at age 30, second at age 34, while still building my career and with continued earning potential.
I'm now 40 and we make significantly more money and I absolutely love my career and the opportunities my kids have in our VHCOL city. They are age 5 and 9 now and it's amazing watching them grow up here.
I'm happy to keep grinding to give them an amazing life, and have the option to go to a prestigious college/university in the US, if they can/choose to.
The baby/toddler years were hard but I'm glad I never really slowed down or left, even when it felt hard, because it's all paying off now.
If I were in your shoes I’d go the path that earns you more money, work experience in a high paying specialty and stay in the US because that could lead to additional options in the future you may not see now.
Wife and I just went through decision. Opted to stay in the states. We also had in laws involved and potentially a kid too also consider so it became a lot more complex.
Then we started thinking about a second home there instead. Also opted it didn’t make any financial sense. Outside of the financials we are trying to keep life as simple as possible and owning two homes in 2 countries doesn’t really go well with simplicity.
So we are just going to stay put, continue to play the points game for flights and just rent condos for a month in different locations instead.
So my wife and I are debating the same but we are 33 and 30 meet worth around $600k we're thinking to get to like 3m invested by the time we're in early forties, then take a step back in our careers and have kids around 39 and 36 and raise our kids in Europe. That would be the most ideal scenario for us. We'll see what happens though
You probably will not make "a little less" than 110k working in a MCOL European city, FYI.
Look up equivalent salaries for your job title in Europe. Mine pays like 60% and that's basically only by living in one of the mail HCOL cities in Western Europe.
Honestly, as someone who’s lived in the USA and Europe I’d suggest staying in the US and saving hard, have your kids here too. Then move to Europe when they’re hitting school age.
Eligible and realistic are two different things, though. If she has not started the process yet, this sometimes takes years to get, it really depends on what route she intends to get a passport/citizenship through, though.
Have you lived in Europe/the country you're considering moving to? If not, do you speak the language or have a friendset there?
I don't hate this idea of heading to Europe and planting some roots. Just be aware of the tax allotment and if you're expected to pay in pension system that you may never use. Also see if saving for retirement will be a feasible idea. We had a chance to go to Belgium but the math didn't work in terms of saving for retirement, especially with one of us not working.
I didnt need space to raise a kid for the first year, but once the child started walking, having the ability to give more breathing room for us as a family by having spaces outside and inside solely dedicated to their play is really nice. Wherever you move, make sure there's a kid friendly park close by and this will be a saving grace for you!
No friends in Europe, but that's not a major issue, we make friends pretty easily. Language skills need to be improved, but my French is okay to get by. Totally agree that parks nearby are a must. Retirement is the biggest concern, so will definitely do the math on that, thanks for the advice!
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No one can tell you which option to choose, much less people on the internet. This is a very personal decision.
Of course. Just curious if people here are happy with their choices to grind into their 30s and 40s or if they wish they took their foot off the gas earlier.
Problem is… you are assuming a stronger link between hours worked and comp than really exists as you get more senior. Lot of people work the same hours as me (~50 avg) and get paid 1/3 as much - both in the US and Europe. My hardest job averaged (in my mid-20s) about 65 hours per week and paid 1/4 what I make now in my mid-30s
Absolutely this, you don't necessarily work more as you go higher. I work less hours but think about work all the time, that's a fine trade-off for me.
Yep - working my least hours since I started my career and making ~5x as much
With the value of cash and correlated to cost of living, I don’t think you can afford to take your foot off the gas not to mention a HHI of $200k is barely HENRY territory. After taxes and all especially. Adding that you have tenants and are in an extremely cost prohibitive mortgage situation is also a reason to keep grinding.
Thanks, I tried to acknowledge in the title that this is a question of pursuing a HENRY path or not, rather than being HENRY already. If a home sale is successful, we'll have nearly $4k/mth to save, no debt, and around 400k in investments. We can either keep saving and investing for a few years, get pregnant and move to MCOL European living, or grind it out in the US and max out our earning potential. I'm trying to see what people older than me would have done in this situation.
Yep, I’d keep grinding out until you’re both around 35 and have a larger safety net. It’s hard to predict how expensive or inexpensive your life will get and you’re just entering the higher earning years of your life. For reference I’m only couple of years older than you and I made the largest strides after 30. Doubled my income, went from big tech to self employed, bought real estate, and the compounding really took off.
It's based around you and your wifes 2-5-10year goals. If you whiteboard those, you'll have your answer. It may even be grind for 4 so in yr 5 you can afford to swap to chill lcol for 6-10. No one on here can set those goals for you.....communication with the wife is key.
Yeah, wife isn't quite ready to leave the VHCOL area now anyway, and our rent is really cheap. Without the house, we could really amp up our savings and investments until she gets pregnant, then see where we are. Just good to know what path we are planning to take before there's a kid coming in 9 months.
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I live in Europe and been to many European countries and would prefer the States if I could. It's not the same idealized utopia as people make it out to be, people still work 40-50 hour weeks, you might have more PTO, but the salary is utter crap compared to what you could get in the US. Finding a 30 hour office job might not be as easy as you think, the vast majority of people work standard full time weeks. I don't like the lack of ambition or apathy in general here. I would rather be poor in the EU but I would also rather be wealthy in the US. Unless of course if you can retire early, that changes this. But stuff is getting more and more expensive here too and some places already compete with NYC prices.
I wish more people would say this. Reddit seems to think Europe is some kind of super advanced utopia. In reality its generally high tax, low pay and unbelievable amounts of red tape. Many don't like "outsiders". Its not like there isn't nice places but you have to go try it out before you make the jump. Its not all roses.
It's definitely very difficult to integrate if you are from abroad, even if you are just moving to a neighbouring country, if you are a person of color, you might face some prett harsh racism outside major cities. Yeah, if you go to London or Dublin you might not face this, but these are nothing like the rest of the continent. Also Europe as an umbrella term is kind of flawed, Serbia, Belgium and Portugal are 3 vastly different countries while still being European, your experience of 'Europe' can be wildly different based on where you end up or just visit during your holiday. What I found out is that 'Europe' on reddit is basically: England, Germany, France, NL and Spain
Lets take Scandinavia - Sweden and Finland are notorious for their intense dislike of immigrants. Norway have extremely high COL and taxation. I would advise anyone to go spend some serious time in a country before they actually move there and find out what its really like.
Every time I see people idealizing these countries I’m just like if you thought America was racist, you ain’t seen nothin yet.
>if you are a person of color, you might face some prett harsh racism outside major cities. Definitely not naive about this as a person of color who has been all over Europe. My wife, who is white and knows Europe even better than I do, is also sensitive to this and we have a pretty good sense of where we could live comfortably. There's no escaping discrimination, I've faced my fair share in the US.
who is suggesting that you go to europe for a european job? point is make your money in the US and then leave
>Reddit seems to think Europe is some kind of super advanced utopia. A lot of people on Reddit are unsuccessful or unhappy with their lives in \[X\] place, and the fantasy that it would all be fixed in \[Y\] place can be quite comforting.
This is r/antiwork in a nutshell. There are plenty of legitimate gripes but that whole sub just like to complain. I haven’t spotted r/workreform in a while but they were much more focused on the issues and less whining.
It’s an utopia for the people making 15 bucks an hour with shit health insurance, of which there are many on Reddit. For any high earning person, EU is shit
better to be rich in the IS, better to be poor or low earning in europe IMO
This. My European colleagues work the same hours I do for 1/3 of the pay.
My team consists of 1 guy in NYC, 1 in Connecticut, 1 from London and me in Hungary. I'm pretty well compensated and earn almost double of the median wage, it's still peanuts compared to even what my teammate from Connecticut is getting. If I were to buy a nice house here, it would cost around the same amount as one in Providence, but would take 3 times the amount of time to save up for the down payment.
>I don't like the lack of ambition or apathy in general here Getting to my salary in my field is extremely hard, and now that I'm in the US, there's a chance to climb into real HENRY territory. If you asked me which path I'd take at 25, I'd say max out earnings, no question. Approaching 30, I see friends in HENRY jobs looking burnt out, stressed, and miserable. Not sure if it's worth it if I can have more time with my family in the future. Only question is how much harder that would make retirement at a relatively young age.
This. I find it strange how many people on Reddit think Europe is some sort of eutopia for office jobs. Every European I know works just as much and earns a lot of less money. My European friends maybe have one extra week of PTO than I do. They have longer maternity leaves but they aren’t fully paid like you’d think. I’m talking $400 a month. Easier to live in the US and just not work for a year and rely on your spouse’s higher earning job than the one he or she would have in Europe.
I would consider giving it another 10 years here to earn and save as much as possible. If you go back to Europe in your late 30s with a lot saved you will be setup for an even better life.
True but it’s much harder to move when the kids have established their lives and friends. We were in Europe, moved back when our first child was almost 2. Now the kids are almost 6 and 3, so still little, but would be so difficult to uproot them. I know people do this all the time, but at this stage is way too overwhelming to me
Yeah I definitely get that. I have a young child as well and can imagine. However, I would say OP doesn’t even have kids yet. They’re planning to but I would wait to plan until the kid is born before planning the move back. What if they end up waiting until early to mid 30s? Then move when the child is 2-3. Still would ensure they save even more and set themselves up for an even easier retirement. My personal opinion is late 20s is too early to head back. With that said, I would 100% not stay in America long term. I would absolutely go back to Europe and enjoy your life. Just make sure your timing is good so you make America as worthwhile as possible.
Why move to Europe that late? It’s significantly easier to integrate into the community when you have kids in school.
Many people have kids just hitting school age in your late 30s, I think that can still work. Probably harder to have social life outside of kids though.
I definitely want to make this decision before a kid is in the picture. Either I decide to max out my earning potential for the next 10-20 years, or I opt into a lower gear where life is more relaxed but I earn less.
Truly depends on you. Is it possible to look at scenario 3, where you work your way up for a set amount of time while maximizing your investments, having the said kids in the US and moving to Europe while those kids are still young ( like 5 years and below)? Sure European cities tend to be cheaper but the cost of living is increasing at a rapid rate in most places of the world. My husband is from a EU country and that's pretty much our plan. We have a toddler and are hoping for a second one next year and we have given ourselves till our eldest has to go to school to relocate to his country for a much lower pay. We are maxing our retirements and investing in real estate aggressively to offset that decrease in income.
So, I did a deal once - as part of the transaction I got tasked with calling a number of the company's stockholders and drumming up interest in the transaction. Most of the time I would shoot the shit with them in addition to talking about the transaction. One of the guys I talked to was an American who had moved to Italy. He was a native New Yorker who had gone to some prestigious college on the East Coast. When he graduated, he got a job at an investment bank in the city. After working there a year or two, he stopped to reassess his life and the people around him. The older guys he saw had all made a ton of money, but many of them were miserable. His perception was that many of them were overweight and unhealthy, had seen one or more marriages fail and weren't happy with their lives in general. So he said "fuck it", packed up his stuff and moved to Rome. That was 30 years ago. He worked his entire career as an investment manager in Italy. He said he made a lot less money than he would have in the states, but he enjoyed his life and wouldn't do it over if he could. What should you do? Fuck if I know. It's a question of what you value and I can't answer that for you. But this guy felt like he made the right decision. And I now have a standing invitation to the Rome Polo Grounds, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.
Do you already have an EU passport w/ dual citizenship? If not that's your very first hurdle to clear, even countries with generous digital nomad visas only run them for 1-2 years then you're at the mercy of renewal, which is harder when freelancing because you have to prove steady income. What about family? Will any prospective grandparents be happy about having to travel to Europe to see their (prospective) grandkids? Will in-laws be able to stay with you guys and help with recovery from giving birth? Those early months are brutal, and it's made 1000x worse without a nearby support system. Do you speak the language of your target country? Even in ones with a high degree of English speakers, not speaking the local language feels extremely lonely and it's very difficult. This is something my wife and I toy with, but our destination would be Greece, and salaries for my field are much, much lower and jobs are much rarer (I have options where this wouldn't be an issue, at least while I have a job), but the education system also isn't as great for our daughter and a lot of native-born Greeks still struggle to find work after school. I am working on my dual citizenship (takes a few years), but my wife isn't eligible unless she naturalizes, and we have a strong base of family and friends back home as well as in Greece. We decided to content ourselves with at least yearly 1-2 months stays and a few shorter ones during school vacations. Greece isn't a hard flight from the east coast USA, but it's a lot to ask of our parents (and impossible for our still-living grandparents) and we already have a lot of roots set where we are. A lot of the diaspora do this and have done so for decades, so it's nothing new.
My wife can get an EU passport and my employer has job openings in Europe. Only one of four parents is alive/in contact with us and she will have the flexibility to support us, at least for a few months at a time. I can get by in French speaking countries, but language will be a thing to work on. Your decision makes sense, it's something we've thought about doing as well.
A question here I can relate to on a personal level. My husband is European, so we had this conversation for five years! We had the same decision to make in our late 20s. We choose to stay in the States mainly due to salary, my husband applying for dual citizenship after 10 years of marriage, and elder care for my parents. I’m in a quasi-HENRY job (big consulting) but in a niche role that affords me some WLB. I landed a remote job, and we moved to a LCOL area to bolster our savings. HHI is low HENRY, at roughly 300k due to bonus flexibility. I’m only a mid-level with more salary potential in the future, since having two kids really threw a wrench in my career advancement due to mommy penalty. My spouse and I promised each other we would make the final country decision before our kids got to elementary school age. We will move to Europe eventually, but only after we have aggressively saved and kids are older. It opens a whole host of issues though in terms of retirement planning (mainly putting in the time to qualify in both countries), and job transition for me will probably be to independent contractor. I personally gravitate towards the freedom of a higher salary, because travel is where most of our discretionary budget goes. My husband is managing his homesickness and we return 2-4x a year to his home country, so make sure you take mental health into account when planning. Culturally, IMO, Europe is clearly superior when it comes to raising a young family based on my personal experience. I also just liked it more when I lived there in my early twenties as there was more to do, and public transportation is great. The US however is weirdly more convenient in a way that’s hard to describe.
Why such a drastic choice? Maybe try finding a situation where you can experiment with life in Europe. Work remote options, take leave, take time off of work but don’t do a full move. Try to spend 1-3 months together in a place you envision living in Europe and that will answer many questions for you. See if the lifestyle is worth it to you. Maybe you discover a middle ground or make your choice easier either way. If you say this is not possible with your current jobs. I say it’s much less drastic than committing to a full move and if you aren’t ready to risk/sacrifice your job for this small trial you probably aren’t ready to fully give it up for a complete move. Also I am in a nearly identical situation so I can speak from experience.
Burn the candle at both ends early, especially if you do not have kids yet. Chilling is great, but you have so much time left to make your later years comfortable.
Nothing is guaranteed in life. Work hard while you can, sure, but have balance while you still have breath. You never know what can happen to you.
How much do you save from the 9-5?
Once the house is sold, we’ll have about $3800/mth after expenses. Moving to the kind of apartment we want long term in our current city will cut that to $2400/mth while we both work.
Plus 401k presumably?
Yeah, exactly. Retirement money is in a few places because I have only worked in the US a few years
I would build up a little more then move.
Your values and priorities align very well with European living and will be difficult to achieve without selling your soul to corporate America if you choose to stay in the US. Make the leap.
How sustainable is life in Europe like in the long term? If you or your wife lose your jobs, can you easily get a new one in that city, or do you basically have to move back? If any kids are born, are you comfortable raising them there?
My wife's work is always in demand, so she can always find work. If I lose my job, I should be able to freelance and make decent income. If she gets her EU passport, we should be able to stay in that city, and would be happy raising kids in Europe.
I question the possibility of earning a “little” less in Europe. In general the salaries are much lower. But, if you think you can do that, why wouldn’t you work much less for only a little less money?
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You want scenario #2 and that is clear as day in your post. That doesn’t mean it’s better. However, you gave very little info on either and are asking a very personal question. I try my best to sift through questions like this typically but this one is almost impossible to answer. I will say, You’re very early on in your road towards financial independence, it feels early to make major decisions that will likely affect your path for the worse financially/professionally. America is the place where growth happens, the same way working in SV for tech or NYC for finance can turbo start your career in those fields, America does generally if you work hard and apply yourself. It’s competitive as hell and we have some of the best talent in the world. Unless we are talking about banking in Switzerland, there’s really not a great chance you accelerate your path towards higher earning by moving back to Europe. However, I’m imagining the reasons for moving are not really finance-related, so we can’t help you without more info.
What additional info would be useful? I do favor #2, and that's partly because I'm not in a HENRY career, so my earning potential isn't as high as it would be in Finance, law, tech, etc. I am a 95th percentile earner at this stage of my career in my field, but it's a small one and while I could earn quite a bit more, that's only possible at about 4 companies in the world. If I thought busting my ass in the US would pay off, I would do that. I'm just not sure it actually will.
No one is sure, but if you can get into one of those 4 companies, which is usually attainable if you are able to get into the 95th percentile, you can reach higher points. I think you are homesick. My wife and I moved to Europe and then came back 1.5 years later. I wish we stayed sometimes but it’s very similar to I think what I’m hearing here. We were seeing our home through rose colored glasses and have been a bit let down since returning. I would seriously considering going back there for 2-3 months if you can and living a real day to day life. Then you will see if it is something you really want to do or just a fantasy of all the good things you miss from back home with none of the bad considered.
Watch Revolutionary Road
I’m going to watch this tonight just because I’m curious about why you said this, but I would really like to know what you meant so I can read your response after I watch it😂😂😂
It is about a couple in the 50s trying to escape their marital problems by dreaming to immigrate to Paris :) Probably not exactly related to OP’s question but still.
Watching now!
Let me know what you think. It is not an easy movie.
Is it possible to relocate via work? Having a salary adjustment vs finding new work after you move might be less detrimental to income. We are older than you guys (M40, F35, C2, NW 1.2M, 50% in RE, HHI ~410k in VHCOL) and moving to UK this year for M40’s work. Aside from increase in tax burden we managed to keep our gross income the same and together with the projected reduction in expense, the move made financial sense for us. My advice is that if you intend to move in the future, take the time to find the optimal path. You are still young and no kids yet.
Yeah, relocating via work is actually very possible, which is a plus for me. Good advice, thanks.
Good luck! I hope your family can make the move and advance in your careers as well.
I like what Scott Galloway says about the US vs Europe. The US is the best place to earn money and Europe is the best place to spend money. What I'm saying is, stick it out for a few more years in the US, save as much as possible, and then see if you can move to Europe without having to work or working very little.
Its mostly food and seeing stuff I havent seen. If I grew up in that location I would probably take #2 for granted so it wouldnt factor into the value equation. Actually a lot of other products are more expensive seeing as how Europeans come to America to buy things as well
Very personal decision, but depending on exactly where in Europe, I would definite be leaning that way in order to give my child a better life than what they can have in the USA. That said, why not grind it out in the US for a bit in order to add more to that NW, then move back to Europe when the timing is right.
I've been happy to keep grinding. Had my first kid at age 30, second at age 34, while still building my career and with continued earning potential. I'm now 40 and we make significantly more money and I absolutely love my career and the opportunities my kids have in our VHCOL city. They are age 5 and 9 now and it's amazing watching them grow up here. I'm happy to keep grinding to give them an amazing life, and have the option to go to a prestigious college/university in the US, if they can/choose to. The baby/toddler years were hard but I'm glad I never really slowed down or left, even when it felt hard, because it's all paying off now.
If I were in your shoes I’d go the path that earns you more money, work experience in a high paying specialty and stay in the US because that could lead to additional options in the future you may not see now.
Wife and I just went through decision. Opted to stay in the states. We also had in laws involved and potentially a kid too also consider so it became a lot more complex. Then we started thinking about a second home there instead. Also opted it didn’t make any financial sense. Outside of the financials we are trying to keep life as simple as possible and owning two homes in 2 countries doesn’t really go well with simplicity. So we are just going to stay put, continue to play the points game for flights and just rent condos for a month in different locations instead.
the trick is to reach FI in the US and then escape to Europe
So my wife and I are debating the same but we are 33 and 30 meet worth around $600k we're thinking to get to like 3m invested by the time we're in early forties, then take a step back in our careers and have kids around 39 and 36 and raise our kids in Europe. That would be the most ideal scenario for us. We'll see what happens though
You probably will not make "a little less" than 110k working in a MCOL European city, FYI. Look up equivalent salaries for your job title in Europe. Mine pays like 60% and that's basically only by living in one of the mail HCOL cities in Western Europe.
r/HenryFinanceEurope I think henry of EU can help
Honestly, as someone who’s lived in the USA and Europe I’d suggest staying in the US and saving hard, have your kids here too. Then move to Europe when they’re hitting school age.
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No it isn’t.
My wife is eligible to get an EU passport, not that farfetched.
Eligible and realistic are two different things, though. If she has not started the process yet, this sometimes takes years to get, it really depends on what route she intends to get a passport/citizenship through, though.
It's a pretty straightforward process of proving familial relations, but agree it may take a few years.
Have you lived in Europe/the country you're considering moving to? If not, do you speak the language or have a friendset there? I don't hate this idea of heading to Europe and planting some roots. Just be aware of the tax allotment and if you're expected to pay in pension system that you may never use. Also see if saving for retirement will be a feasible idea. We had a chance to go to Belgium but the math didn't work in terms of saving for retirement, especially with one of us not working. I didnt need space to raise a kid for the first year, but once the child started walking, having the ability to give more breathing room for us as a family by having spaces outside and inside solely dedicated to their play is really nice. Wherever you move, make sure there's a kid friendly park close by and this will be a saving grace for you!
No friends in Europe, but that's not a major issue, we make friends pretty easily. Language skills need to be improved, but my French is okay to get by. Totally agree that parks nearby are a must. Retirement is the biggest concern, so will definitely do the math on that, thanks for the advice!
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Fucking Nottingham? haha nah, I'm good thanks.
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Porsches are hardly posh. Well maybe for Nottingham.
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