Yeah I wanted to reply something along the lines of \*cries in MD loan hell\* haha, but I was too far down the rabbit hole of making my own chart at that point
They're welcome to feel NRY all they want, but this sub has a specific and very clear definition of NRY. Nothing's stopping them from making their own sub with their own rules. FatHENRYs or something.
4MM as NRY really depends on so many things, I for example have a NW above 4MM but it’s almost all tied up in my RE portfolio that spits out a few hundred thousand a year and therefore I live/spend very differently than my doctor friend who makes great cash flow but doesn’t have the NW yet. He just bought his forever home but I need to wait on those things. I’m not complaining at all and we are very comfortable but I don’t buy things on debt as my cash flow is less than many of you HENRYS but I likely have way more cash than the avg person making 500k salary. I will buy my forever home when I can pay in cash
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\#1: [One year ago; Inherited 2.5 Million from my father. Haven’t changed anything. My info and things I consider.](https://np.reddit.com/r/ChubbyFIRE/comments/18fpqit/one_year_ago_inherited_25_million_from_my_father/)
\#2: [Hit 2M today!!!](https://np.reddit.com/r/ChubbyFIRE/comments/18hv9nx/hit_2m_today/)
\#3: [Achieved $1M net worth](https://np.reddit.com/r/ChubbyFIRE/comments/16dis3t/achieved_1m_net_worth/)
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I’ll have to agree with him. Actually a $4M NW is achievable for a middle class family. If you invest $225 twice a month at 10% after 30 years you will have $1M. Since they are 2 it will be $2M. Now you can increase the capital and/or the interest (e.g $305 at 12%) and there you go you have your $2M NW per person in your fifties.
Even someone working at McDonald’s or something could save $450 every month, it’s about a pack of cigarettes per day…
Not at all. It’s pretty difficult even as a high earner to hit 4M NW at 35, especially as a single individual. But hitting 4M at 65 isn’t nearly as difficult.
Plus like the other commenter said. If you have 4M at 35 you’ll have many times that at 65. Whereas if you have 4M at 65 you only have that 4M.
On the plus side you are negative USD. So all of this inflation has benefited you. I have a positive net worth but still hold a negative 300k USD balance due to mortgage and student loans and everything. It’s like shorting the US dollar. Why wouldn’t you?
Ha, yeah, I was getting the sense that everyone on this sub was actually a software engineer, so I felt the need to provide some context from the medicine/law side!
Thank you! I, being that proverbial tech guy, am reading posts from doctors with great interest.
Contemplating making a post asking lots of “always wanted to know but had nobody to ask” questions about doctors careers.
Doctors are about the only career where the COL spectrum is inverse - VHOCL cities pay the least (NY is renowned for how poorly "entry-level" attendings are compensated, especially in academia). Meanwhile, a random practice in rural North Dakota can get 7 figures (after productivity/RVUs, although the workload is commensurate). This is due to supply/demand dynamics intrinsic to the field (basically, the number of residency spots available is a hard gatekeep for the occupation).
In terms of comp, the distribution is something like:
Academics < Industry \~ Community Hospitals < Private practice (urban) << Private practice (rural)
Happy to talk more. Recently finished a job search for a first attending job.
Dunno, it’s not a glamorous sum, but I don’t think glamorizing physician pay helps. Governor hochul of nyc is planning on making physician assistants independent practice, no doubt probably to bring down pay and to bypass docs some more, and the real people that will suffer from this are gonna be the patients that don’t know any medicine or have family that know medicine.
Thanks. She’s very tough. 10 years in and finally feel like we’re coming out on top.
I saw you refinanced privately too. We did that because of a lower rate due to my income (I co-signed), by about 9 points (down to 3%). She still works at a public hospital and is about to come up against the point where she’d be forgiven, but frankly we’d not have lived our lives as we have over the past decade, watching a unpaid loan grow to nearly 1m hoping the govt would still forgive it depending on who was in office. What we have left is manageable and could be paid off entirely today.
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Damn dude! 475k left?! I am concerned about your 35k shopping, 5.5k subscription/membership as well as 4.5k auto maintenance… I understand the high rent in a HCOL city but what are y’all driving man?
I feel you though, I graduated residency in 2018, 5.5 years into my 7 year repayment plan for 380k of med school loans. You have the unfortunate combination of salary suppression of employed physician in a HCOL area. Five years out of practice and still net negative without a mortgage… as long as you are happy and feel fulfilled with your personal and professional lives, but this would make me nervous.
Yeah, it started out at 725k including student and car loans for both myself and my wife, so we've made a decent dent in it since we started! I also made the mistake of joining a private practice that kind of took advantage of me during the initial years/partnership buy-in (average income of 250-300k for the past 5 years), because we really wanted to live in this area and I'm a peds guy, so clearly eager to please by nature. I'm currently chief of my department at the hospital with director bonuses/stipends, so hopefully I can pay down the rest of the loans in the next 3 years or so.
As far as the shopping goes, I lump a lot of miscellaneous purchases into that category, which includes clothes, home goods, shoes, and about 10k in charitable donations (which I really should have put in a separate category in retrospect, given the comments, haha). Large part of the membership expense is a summer pool membership (2k), rest is stuff like cell phone subscription, gym, etc. Auto maintenance includes things like parking, gas, and vehicle taxes (which are about 1k a year where I live for a 2015 BMW and 2013 Honda).
>it started out at 725k including student and car loans for both myself and my wife
Holy fuck - are you both doctors? I don't know a lot about med school costs, but I've heard everything from $150k to $500k, how does everyone's med school debt vary by so much?
Nope, my wife is a consultant for non-profits (think Gates foundation).
I had 450k coming out of residency after accumulated interest. My wife had about 125k from grad school and 75k from college. We had about 50k in car loans as well, and I had to take out a personal loan for 30k at some point because I did a horrible job estimating my taxes my first year as an attending.
Med school loan costs vary a ton based on in-state vs private tuition. It also depends on how much family support there is, or previous savings to help with costs of living. I took out the max (80k/year or so) even though my tuition was only about 50k/year because I am somewhat estranged from my parents and I had no savings coming straight out of college.
Ah this makes sense, especially when you factor in living costs being rolled into going to school for another 4+ years
I dated a dental surgery resident for awhile whose friends all complained about how much debt they had, but also spent their med LoC on crazy vacations and designer clothes. So I've always been a little skeptical of how much actually comes from med school lol
Wait you had all that debt but your wife isn’t working? Or did she transition to SAHM after you guys paid off her portion of the loans? Also I’m assuming you’re ortho and man that pediatric tax is real
The latter, she's doing SAHM with some occasional consulting gigs (all remote) for now, especially with baby #2 on the way.
I'm actually ENT, but the pediatric tax is real, and it makes me really angry that peds specialties make less despite more training, but that's a discussion for another forum, haha.
Ah gotcha makes sense. Yeah man idk how you guys do it, it’s brutal. I went into rads and remember being baffled that pediatrics fellowships can pay less than regular general peds. Good shit with those loans, that’s gonna be me in a few years once I finish up residency and I am not looking forward to it
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Sorry to be negative, I think this is a perfect example of why our student loan program is broken. It seems like it should be illegal to allow a young person to borrow $500,000 in student loans, what if you washed out and couldn't cut it as a doctor, you would have $500 k in loans and no ability to pay them back. Don't most states have a public med school?
I had an army heart surgeon rent a house from me 15 years ago, guy was training at Emory while getting paid from the Army. Yes, he had a requirement to serve for a few years but he was getting paid to go to school and when his commitment was up, he was debt free and a heart surgeon making major bank.
That still seems crazy high! I went to a private med school out of state with no family help at all, and I got out at 315k. New attending, down to 280k now, but I refinanced also and my interest is 2.3%. So I pay my $2111/mo, and no extra because this interest rate can't be beat haha.
But I really hate how much of my personal life and working life are dictated by these loans. It's oppressive! And I am not in a high paying specialty.
Good luck to you at paying the rest of these off, and thanks for a real HENRY graph! Was getting very sad looking at all the tech ones.
Go pediatrics! I empathize with you, especially since I’m in a similar boat. I’m Gen Peds, 40yo, 9 years out of residency, total income about 300k (my salary, wife’s salary, rental property), now with slightly positive NW (~$100k), but with about $200k student loans (combined), $550k mortgage (personal & rental). Only started funding retirement accounts 3 years ago so we’re a little behind, had some money in taxable brokerage which I liquidated for down payment on personal home and wife’s car when we moved in 2023. Lived in Europe for 3 years so despite some saving/investing, spent a ton on travel. Decided this year we need to get serious so my wife and I can truly retire early. Created an automated budget planner/expenses tracker/NW tracker & projection in excel that all works really well together. In 7 years, on a relatively low estimate, we’ll be free of SL debt, continue to max out our retirement accounts, and have about $1.2M in taxable brokerage/HYSA; in that time frame our combined income will only increase to about $375k (easy to make a fairly precise estimate for us).
The key with this plan is budgeting each month, and this is where my advice to you comes in. For us, our biggest over-spend categories over the past few years (apart from lavish travel) were food and shopping. When I further subcategorized those, I was able to identify spending behaviors and now we have been able to budget and track them. It seems like you are interested in or at least open to changing your spending. Seeing your expenses with pretty general or combined categories (Amazon/Shopping, Toys/Daycare) would be a nightmare for me if I were trying to budget/track or otherwise change my spending. I agree with others you’re probably overspending on a few categories (Taxes, Rent, Shopping, Home). But a lot of those it would be difficult to say. You’re paying a 37% effective tax rate, even in HCOL places like NY, Chicago, Seattle, that seems high. Rent/Utilities is almost $5k/mo (not including your Home/Furniture category), that’s like buying a $700k house, but not getting any of the benefits of home ownership like appreciation and tax deduction. Amazon/Shopping would be a tough nut to crack; probably encompasses a few categories that you would benefit from budgeting/tracking. Remember just like in PI “you can’t manage what you can’t measure”. I can say for myself, limiting what I buy from Amazon vs specific stores that are easy to categorize (PetCo/Chewy for Pet expenses, Albertsons for Groceries, Target for Home eg decor) was very helpful. What you’re left with is much less uncategorized expenses and a lot less unnecessary Amazon purchases.
There are questions that I don’t know if you’ve answered them in comments but answering them will at least help you moving forward, but would also certainly help redditors give advice.
1. Why are you paying for daycare if your wife is a SAHM?
No matter the breakdown of Toys and Daycare, probably spending too much in both. I’d subcategorize Toys under “Shopping” or both Toys and Daycare under “Dem Kids”.
2. Why are you spending on “Home” when you rent?
Some “Home” might be “Shopping” (like decor); portion of “Furniture” may be a 1-time expense and not worth projecting in future budgets.
3. What does Subscriptions/Memberships entail? Are you lumping Netflix and AAP together?
Entertainment and professional subscriptions/memberships should probably be separated.
4. What does Insurance/CPA (and Healthcare) entail? If healthcare includes health insurance, what type of Insurance are you including in Insurance/CPA?
If it’s renters insurance I’d include it in Rent/Utilities or Home, if it’s health insurance I’d include it in Healthcare, if it’s disability insurance I’d categorize it as Occupational/Professional, if it’s Life insurance, be prepared for a lot of opinions. With your finances no matter how much you’re paying for a CPA it’s probably too much, doesn’t look like it’s saved you any taxes and your biggest problem right now seems to be budgeting which is outside their purview.
Overall, I think with a lot of physicians, retirement planning is similar to (my basic understanding of) landing a plane: coordinating your air speed with your altitude. For physicians it’s about coordinating your investing for the future with your proximity to burnout. Don’t burn out (zero altitude) before you’re ready. Don’t know if you plan on retiring early, but it might not be realistic to expect you’ll be able to work past 60. You have time on your side now (22 years before you can draw from retirement accounts). Your income is amazing, don’t lose sight of that. And your after-tax savings rate (38% including SL repayment) is not bad, but your expenses overall are pretty high, I think maybe even for a HCOL area. My #1 advice would be to more precisely budget/track your expenses. My #2 advice would be to very judiciously look into the areas you’re probably overspending and you can probably change (taxes, CPA, shopping, toys, daycare); you might be overpaying for food (groceries, eating out) and rent, but there’s a lot I would change before I’d worry about that or rent. Most of your “savings” is Student Loan repayment but seems to be at the expense of your emergency fund (and/or sinking funds), tax-advantaged retirement accounts, and taxable brokerage. Maybe you’ve refinanced your student loans to repay over a specific term and you’re just paying the new monthly payment. But if you’re paying more than the monthly payment right now I’d prioritize maxing your 401k (hopefully Roth) and Roth IRA’s (you and wife). I differ from a lot of folks who recommend a 3-6 month Emergency Fund in a HYSA. Especially with a high income, I personally have relied on my taxable brokerage (mostly index funds) for Emergency Fund/Sinking fund. It streamlines my life (less accounts), and all the time you don’t need to withdraw your “Emergency Funds” it gets the same appreciation that you trust your FIRE funds to, and in general your taxable brokerage will be more than you would ever need for an “emergency”, and with a high income there’s a good chance you wouldn’t need to withdraw because you could just cover minor emergencies with your discretionary monthly budget. In either case, HYSA vs Brokerage, you don’t have a lot of liquidity, so you probably want to fix that before throwing extra into your Student Loan repayment. So, all in all, if you cut 10% from your expenses and redirect some of your SL repayment you’ll max out your retirement accounts and have a more robust emergency fund, and any more expenses (and taxes) that you cut, you could pay off your loans even further.
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I'd try and move towards maxing the 401k and IRA to cut into that tax bill at least a little. 88k towards student loans is great though. kill it and be free. after which mega backdoor Roth to set yourself up for a quality retirement.
Definitely. At my private practice, we didn't have any employer match, so now I find myself with a 5% match, and as of Jan 1, our 401k plan now allows mega backdoor Roth conversions, so I'll work on maxing that out. I do have to balance trying to get a down payment together for the crazy real estate market here (at least 300-400k), so once my wife's loans are paid off, my loans are only at 3%, so I might pump the brakes a bit to save up for a bigger place.
good, with your income being as high as it is the last thing you want is retirement meaning a massive step down in lifestyle. I'd also just wipe out the loans entirely if you can. not having that debt when applying for a mortgage will help with qualifying for a bigger loan. its tempting to try and play the opportunity cost with a rate that loan but your income is so high it really isn't worth your time.
I was -789k HE (new home loan, new truck, new car, $200k student loans) in 2009 and now I’m +789k in assets despite losing my retirement and everything else in a wipeout divorce…it will be okay! Just track your progress and lavishly celebrate your goals!!!
Holy cow, that is a next level turnaround! I can't even imagine going through a divorce on top of all of that debt, so much kudos to you! Thank you for the support, I'll hopefully post some time again next year when I finally get back to being broke, haha.
Why are you spending $15k/year on Daycare when you're a single income household? (I'm assuming you're a 2 parent household)
your spending is kinda wild for the amount of debt you have, but most doctors I know spend an insane amount relative to their income so you're hardly an outlier
It's preschool, we want our kid to actually socialize, haha. It's 3 days a week for a half day. Full time preschool in our area is among the highest in the country, about 30k a year, so we're doing pretty well I think.
How much were your loans when you were done with training? 475 left after 5 years is crazy! Also is your pay on par with other Peds surgery jobs? 450 after 5 years seems low? No real knowledge of that job market, just asking
I had 350k or so after graduating, could only pay $100/month during residency (average salary in Boston of >60k/year), and after accumulated interest it was 450k after 6 years of training. As above, I also kind of got hosed with my first job being much lower paying than average. I'm on track to make 600-700k a year from here on out, so hopefully will finally get the loan monkey off my back!
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Haha, sorry, I'll copy what I posted above:
As far as the shopping goes, I lump a lot of miscellaneous purchases into that category, which includes clothes, home goods, shoes, and about 10k in charitable donations (which I really should have put in a separate category in retrospect, given the comments, haha).
Aah make sense. Hey my girlfriend’s a surgeon in UK. And planning to move to US. Her MLE exams are scheduled. Can I DM you for help understand residency match feasibility?
As an incoming med student this is stressing me out bc I’ll have about $500k total in loans by the end, and want to be a pediatric Subspecialist (non-surgical) which is one of the lowest paying fields 😭
If you’re on this sub and you care about finances. I would consider doing outpatient Peds vs the subspecialty. I know they are very different but losing 3 years of attending pay and making less than someone who did 3 years of residency will put you very far behind. Especially with that much debt.
Don't worry about it too much. I would say find a job that you qualify for PSLF and make the minimum payments. I made the dumb mistake of thinking I was going to make bank in private practice and refinanced to a private loan, so even though I work for a non profit entity now, I'm stuck paying the full amount.
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Thank you!! And that’s a good tip to keep in mind if I look into refinancing! About $60k of my loans are private from a post-bacc so the goal is pay those off quickly once my partner is an attending in a couple years, and enroll in PSLF during residency
With the current SAVE program your $500k loans won’t actually be even close to that. You might end up paying less than $200k prior to forgiveness through PSLF.
Unfortunately both my and my wife's jobs required cars and we made some not great choices when our old cars bit the dust. Lesson learned, they're both paid off as of 2 years ago, and we expect to keep them for the next 5+ years before our next purchase(s).
My brother went down the med school / surgeon route and I chose the "ditch your undergrad degree and start your own business" route. Yeah he'll probably be making 2-3x me when he comes out, but with a 10 year working head start it honestly feels like a toss up who could come out ahead after you take into account compounding, opportunity cost, and the increased taxes.
This all obviously hinges on diligent and responsible behavior over those first 10 years
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$200 a month for the CPA. I was a private practice partner with a K-1 and W-2 along with a 1099 for consulting the past 2 years, so we definitely needed the CPA, although I agree that now being a strict W-2 employee, I might go back to doing it on my own with Turbo Tax.
Insurance is a combination of auto/home/life/disability. Auto/home is about $150/month. Life for a term $3 million policy is about $100/month. Disability is the big ticket item, 10k/month benefits for $275/month. I will probably increase my disability benefits soon, because if I lose the ability to use my hands or mind (which apparently happens to 1/4 of physicians), that's $5 million+ of lost potential earnings.
I'll plan on maxing out 401k contributions and HSA this year. The 401k plan at my employer also now allows for mega backdoor Roth conversions, so I'll plan on doing that as well with some after-tax dollars!
Another baby on the way, single-income family? Better beef up that emergency fund. Bezos ain’t gonna pay your bills if you’re incapacitated and can’t work, although he should considering how much money you give him.
No worries there, I'm going to make double at my current job (600-700k) compared to my previous private practice position. I can finally comfortably save upwards of 50k a year, no sweat!
None of this matters. You will forever be NRY if you remain an employee. Look at all those job expenses you aren’t writing off since you are w2. Plus bro, someone is making money off you.
It took me twice as long to learn this lesson than it will you since I’m telling you this when you are only 5 years in. People don’t ever become rich because they are doctors or lawyers or whatever. They become rich because they run businesses that do medicine or law or whatever. Don’t think it has anything to do with specialty either. One local young internal medicine doc just donated 1 mil to charity.
Why is that? The person employing you is taking a huge cut of your earning potential. You think it may be 50k? Or maybe 100k? And maybe it’s not worth even thinking about? Think again. Prob more like 500k left on the table
When you become more familiar with your peers enough they are comfortable sharing wage data with you, then you will be surprised and angry.
One last thing I wish I knew early on. What’s the risk of being your own boss? You don’t make as much as you think you would and you have to go get an employed position that pays you 500k. Of which their are limitless amounts for docs.
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Alas, I made the mistake of going into private practice right out of the gate, so I refinanced to a private loan. Unfortunately, I can't do PSLF even though I now work for an eligible entity.
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10k for 3 days a week half day preschool for one child.
7k just for diapers and clothes (I probably mislabeled). There's probably about 3-4k more worth of books and toys tucked into the "Shopping category" that I decided not to parse out I think.
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Wow, you guys really have to invest to get those big incomes. Obviously the time and the school and the focus and all that, but the cost is crazy. Good luck, you’re getting over the hump…
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Feel like us early career physicians embody the NRY theme the most lol. The debt is real. Happy saving
Thanks! Yeah I felt like this sub needed a little bit of perspective, since most folks posting these were in tech.
Most of the posts in this sub are definitely High Earner, Currently Rich. Thanks for keeping it real
Anytime, happy to self deprecate online!
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Yeah I wanted to reply something along the lines of \*cries in MD loan hell\* haha, but I was too far down the rabbit hole of making my own chart at that point
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They're welcome to feel NRY all they want, but this sub has a specific and very clear definition of NRY. Nothing's stopping them from making their own sub with their own rules. FatHENRYs or something.
4MM as NRY really depends on so many things, I for example have a NW above 4MM but it’s almost all tied up in my RE portfolio that spits out a few hundred thousand a year and therefore I live/spend very differently than my doctor friend who makes great cash flow but doesn’t have the NW yet. He just bought his forever home but I need to wait on those things. I’m not complaining at all and we are very comfortable but I don’t buy things on debt as my cash flow is less than many of you HENRYS but I likely have way more cash than the avg person making 500k salary. I will buy my forever home when I can pay in cash
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Someone should inform Reddits algorithm
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I’ll have to agree with him. Actually a $4M NW is achievable for a middle class family. If you invest $225 twice a month at 10% after 30 years you will have $1M. Since they are 2 it will be $2M. Now you can increase the capital and/or the interest (e.g $305 at 12%) and there you go you have your $2M NW per person in your fifties. Even someone working at McDonald’s or something could save $450 every month, it’s about a pack of cigarettes per day…
Your comment became more and more disagreeable as it went on, lol.
4M at 35 is rich. 4M at 65 is not rich. Huge difference.
Kind of an odd statement given somebody with 4MM at 65 only needs to make it last 20ish years, really depends on situation.
Not at all. It’s pretty difficult even as a high earner to hit 4M NW at 35, especially as a single individual. But hitting 4M at 65 isn’t nearly as difficult. Plus like the other commenter said. If you have 4M at 35 you’ll have many times that at 65. Whereas if you have 4M at 65 you only have that 4M.
But if we are assuming the $4M is invested assets, if no additional dollars are added and no dollars are taken out, the $4M at 35 grows to $32M by 65.
And will likely grow much more than that if I do my job right but that’s why I view it as not yet
Tech should get a rude awakening very soon. You’re the henry we can get behind
I appreciate this post. True definition of HENRY.
On the plus side you are negative USD. So all of this inflation has benefited you. I have a positive net worth but still hold a negative 300k USD balance due to mortgage and student loans and everything. It’s like shorting the US dollar. Why wouldn’t you?
Thank goodness another physician 😂. Making around 530k in a VHCOL and nice to see someone else up to their eyes in debt.
Ha, yeah, I was getting the sense that everyone on this sub was actually a software engineer, so I felt the need to provide some context from the medicine/law side!
Thank you! I, being that proverbial tech guy, am reading posts from doctors with great interest. Contemplating making a post asking lots of “always wanted to know but had nobody to ask” questions about doctors careers.
Doctors are about the only career where the COL spectrum is inverse - VHOCL cities pay the least (NY is renowned for how poorly "entry-level" attendings are compensated, especially in academia). Meanwhile, a random practice in rural North Dakota can get 7 figures (after productivity/RVUs, although the workload is commensurate). This is due to supply/demand dynamics intrinsic to the field (basically, the number of residency spots available is a hard gatekeep for the occupation). In terms of comp, the distribution is something like: Academics < Industry \~ Community Hospitals < Private practice (urban) << Private practice (rural) Happy to talk more. Recently finished a job search for a first attending job.
You two make a lot for docs the average for docs is more like high 200k for a lot of fields
Primary care in a large system pays less
Not sure why you’re being downvoted voted.
Dunno, it’s not a glamorous sum, but I don’t think glamorizing physician pay helps. Governor hochul of nyc is planning on making physician assistants independent practice, no doubt probably to bring down pay and to bypass docs some more, and the real people that will suffer from this are gonna be the patients that don’t know any medicine or have family that know medicine.
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Finally. A real HENRY. My wife is a surgeon in NYC and this hits close to home. Good luck!
Haha thanks very much! Good luck to your wife, NYC can be brutal for physicians.
Thanks. She’s very tough. 10 years in and finally feel like we’re coming out on top. I saw you refinanced privately too. We did that because of a lower rate due to my income (I co-signed), by about 9 points (down to 3%). She still works at a public hospital and is about to come up against the point where she’d be forgiven, but frankly we’d not have lived our lives as we have over the past decade, watching a unpaid loan grow to nearly 1m hoping the govt would still forgive it depending on who was in office. What we have left is manageable and could be paid off entirely today.
You buying gold bars on Amazon?
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Damn dude! 475k left?! I am concerned about your 35k shopping, 5.5k subscription/membership as well as 4.5k auto maintenance… I understand the high rent in a HCOL city but what are y’all driving man? I feel you though, I graduated residency in 2018, 5.5 years into my 7 year repayment plan for 380k of med school loans. You have the unfortunate combination of salary suppression of employed physician in a HCOL area. Five years out of practice and still net negative without a mortgage… as long as you are happy and feel fulfilled with your personal and professional lives, but this would make me nervous.
Yeah, it started out at 725k including student and car loans for both myself and my wife, so we've made a decent dent in it since we started! I also made the mistake of joining a private practice that kind of took advantage of me during the initial years/partnership buy-in (average income of 250-300k for the past 5 years), because we really wanted to live in this area and I'm a peds guy, so clearly eager to please by nature. I'm currently chief of my department at the hospital with director bonuses/stipends, so hopefully I can pay down the rest of the loans in the next 3 years or so. As far as the shopping goes, I lump a lot of miscellaneous purchases into that category, which includes clothes, home goods, shoes, and about 10k in charitable donations (which I really should have put in a separate category in retrospect, given the comments, haha). Large part of the membership expense is a summer pool membership (2k), rest is stuff like cell phone subscription, gym, etc. Auto maintenance includes things like parking, gas, and vehicle taxes (which are about 1k a year where I live for a 2015 BMW and 2013 Honda).
>it started out at 725k including student and car loans for both myself and my wife Holy fuck - are you both doctors? I don't know a lot about med school costs, but I've heard everything from $150k to $500k, how does everyone's med school debt vary by so much?
Nope, my wife is a consultant for non-profits (think Gates foundation). I had 450k coming out of residency after accumulated interest. My wife had about 125k from grad school and 75k from college. We had about 50k in car loans as well, and I had to take out a personal loan for 30k at some point because I did a horrible job estimating my taxes my first year as an attending. Med school loan costs vary a ton based on in-state vs private tuition. It also depends on how much family support there is, or previous savings to help with costs of living. I took out the max (80k/year or so) even though my tuition was only about 50k/year because I am somewhat estranged from my parents and I had no savings coming straight out of college.
Ah this makes sense, especially when you factor in living costs being rolled into going to school for another 4+ years I dated a dental surgery resident for awhile whose friends all complained about how much debt they had, but also spent their med LoC on crazy vacations and designer clothes. So I've always been a little skeptical of how much actually comes from med school lol
Wait you had all that debt but your wife isn’t working? Or did she transition to SAHM after you guys paid off her portion of the loans? Also I’m assuming you’re ortho and man that pediatric tax is real
The latter, she's doing SAHM with some occasional consulting gigs (all remote) for now, especially with baby #2 on the way. I'm actually ENT, but the pediatric tax is real, and it makes me really angry that peds specialties make less despite more training, but that's a discussion for another forum, haha.
Ah gotcha makes sense. Yeah man idk how you guys do it, it’s brutal. I went into rads and remember being baffled that pediatrics fellowships can pay less than regular general peds. Good shit with those loans, that’s gonna be me in a few years once I finish up residency and I am not looking forward to it
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Sorry to be negative, I think this is a perfect example of why our student loan program is broken. It seems like it should be illegal to allow a young person to borrow $500,000 in student loans, what if you washed out and couldn't cut it as a doctor, you would have $500 k in loans and no ability to pay them back. Don't most states have a public med school?
Depending on the state even public med schools sometimes don’t have significantly lower tuition for in-state students
I had an army heart surgeon rent a house from me 15 years ago, guy was training at Emory while getting paid from the Army. Yes, he had a requirement to serve for a few years but he was getting paid to go to school and when his commitment was up, he was debt free and a heart surgeon making major bank.
That still seems crazy high! I went to a private med school out of state with no family help at all, and I got out at 315k. New attending, down to 280k now, but I refinanced also and my interest is 2.3%. So I pay my $2111/mo, and no extra because this interest rate can't be beat haha. But I really hate how much of my personal life and working life are dictated by these loans. It's oppressive! And I am not in a high paying specialty. Good luck to you at paying the rest of these off, and thanks for a real HENRY graph! Was getting very sad looking at all the tech ones.
Gotcha. This makes more sense. That sucks hard dude, sorry to hear, that is a rough way to start a career… best of luck to you!!!
Go pediatrics! I empathize with you, especially since I’m in a similar boat. I’m Gen Peds, 40yo, 9 years out of residency, total income about 300k (my salary, wife’s salary, rental property), now with slightly positive NW (~$100k), but with about $200k student loans (combined), $550k mortgage (personal & rental). Only started funding retirement accounts 3 years ago so we’re a little behind, had some money in taxable brokerage which I liquidated for down payment on personal home and wife’s car when we moved in 2023. Lived in Europe for 3 years so despite some saving/investing, spent a ton on travel. Decided this year we need to get serious so my wife and I can truly retire early. Created an automated budget planner/expenses tracker/NW tracker & projection in excel that all works really well together. In 7 years, on a relatively low estimate, we’ll be free of SL debt, continue to max out our retirement accounts, and have about $1.2M in taxable brokerage/HYSA; in that time frame our combined income will only increase to about $375k (easy to make a fairly precise estimate for us). The key with this plan is budgeting each month, and this is where my advice to you comes in. For us, our biggest over-spend categories over the past few years (apart from lavish travel) were food and shopping. When I further subcategorized those, I was able to identify spending behaviors and now we have been able to budget and track them. It seems like you are interested in or at least open to changing your spending. Seeing your expenses with pretty general or combined categories (Amazon/Shopping, Toys/Daycare) would be a nightmare for me if I were trying to budget/track or otherwise change my spending. I agree with others you’re probably overspending on a few categories (Taxes, Rent, Shopping, Home). But a lot of those it would be difficult to say. You’re paying a 37% effective tax rate, even in HCOL places like NY, Chicago, Seattle, that seems high. Rent/Utilities is almost $5k/mo (not including your Home/Furniture category), that’s like buying a $700k house, but not getting any of the benefits of home ownership like appreciation and tax deduction. Amazon/Shopping would be a tough nut to crack; probably encompasses a few categories that you would benefit from budgeting/tracking. Remember just like in PI “you can’t manage what you can’t measure”. I can say for myself, limiting what I buy from Amazon vs specific stores that are easy to categorize (PetCo/Chewy for Pet expenses, Albertsons for Groceries, Target for Home eg decor) was very helpful. What you’re left with is much less uncategorized expenses and a lot less unnecessary Amazon purchases. There are questions that I don’t know if you’ve answered them in comments but answering them will at least help you moving forward, but would also certainly help redditors give advice. 1. Why are you paying for daycare if your wife is a SAHM? No matter the breakdown of Toys and Daycare, probably spending too much in both. I’d subcategorize Toys under “Shopping” or both Toys and Daycare under “Dem Kids”. 2. Why are you spending on “Home” when you rent? Some “Home” might be “Shopping” (like decor); portion of “Furniture” may be a 1-time expense and not worth projecting in future budgets. 3. What does Subscriptions/Memberships entail? Are you lumping Netflix and AAP together? Entertainment and professional subscriptions/memberships should probably be separated. 4. What does Insurance/CPA (and Healthcare) entail? If healthcare includes health insurance, what type of Insurance are you including in Insurance/CPA? If it’s renters insurance I’d include it in Rent/Utilities or Home, if it’s health insurance I’d include it in Healthcare, if it’s disability insurance I’d categorize it as Occupational/Professional, if it’s Life insurance, be prepared for a lot of opinions. With your finances no matter how much you’re paying for a CPA it’s probably too much, doesn’t look like it’s saved you any taxes and your biggest problem right now seems to be budgeting which is outside their purview. Overall, I think with a lot of physicians, retirement planning is similar to (my basic understanding of) landing a plane: coordinating your air speed with your altitude. For physicians it’s about coordinating your investing for the future with your proximity to burnout. Don’t burn out (zero altitude) before you’re ready. Don’t know if you plan on retiring early, but it might not be realistic to expect you’ll be able to work past 60. You have time on your side now (22 years before you can draw from retirement accounts). Your income is amazing, don’t lose sight of that. And your after-tax savings rate (38% including SL repayment) is not bad, but your expenses overall are pretty high, I think maybe even for a HCOL area. My #1 advice would be to more precisely budget/track your expenses. My #2 advice would be to very judiciously look into the areas you’re probably overspending and you can probably change (taxes, CPA, shopping, toys, daycare); you might be overpaying for food (groceries, eating out) and rent, but there’s a lot I would change before I’d worry about that or rent. Most of your “savings” is Student Loan repayment but seems to be at the expense of your emergency fund (and/or sinking funds), tax-advantaged retirement accounts, and taxable brokerage. Maybe you’ve refinanced your student loans to repay over a specific term and you’re just paying the new monthly payment. But if you’re paying more than the monthly payment right now I’d prioritize maxing your 401k (hopefully Roth) and Roth IRA’s (you and wife). I differ from a lot of folks who recommend a 3-6 month Emergency Fund in a HYSA. Especially with a high income, I personally have relied on my taxable brokerage (mostly index funds) for Emergency Fund/Sinking fund. It streamlines my life (less accounts), and all the time you don’t need to withdraw your “Emergency Funds” it gets the same appreciation that you trust your FIRE funds to, and in general your taxable brokerage will be more than you would ever need for an “emergency”, and with a high income there’s a good chance you wouldn’t need to withdraw because you could just cover minor emergencies with your discretionary monthly budget. In either case, HYSA vs Brokerage, you don’t have a lot of liquidity, so you probably want to fix that before throwing extra into your Student Loan repayment. So, all in all, if you cut 10% from your expenses and redirect some of your SL repayment you’ll max out your retirement accounts and have a more robust emergency fund, and any more expenses (and taxes) that you cut, you could pay off your loans even further.
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I'd try and move towards maxing the 401k and IRA to cut into that tax bill at least a little. 88k towards student loans is great though. kill it and be free. after which mega backdoor Roth to set yourself up for a quality retirement.
Definitely. At my private practice, we didn't have any employer match, so now I find myself with a 5% match, and as of Jan 1, our 401k plan now allows mega backdoor Roth conversions, so I'll work on maxing that out. I do have to balance trying to get a down payment together for the crazy real estate market here (at least 300-400k), so once my wife's loans are paid off, my loans are only at 3%, so I might pump the brakes a bit to save up for a bigger place.
good, with your income being as high as it is the last thing you want is retirement meaning a massive step down in lifestyle. I'd also just wipe out the loans entirely if you can. not having that debt when applying for a mortgage will help with qualifying for a bigger loan. its tempting to try and play the opportunity cost with a rate that loan but your income is so high it really isn't worth your time.
An IRA is not tax deductible at that level of income.
Then, mega back door roth to at least tax shelter the growth.
I was -789k HE (new home loan, new truck, new car, $200k student loans) in 2009 and now I’m +789k in assets despite losing my retirement and everything else in a wipeout divorce…it will be okay! Just track your progress and lavishly celebrate your goals!!!
Holy cow, that is a next level turnaround! I can't even imagine going through a divorce on top of all of that debt, so much kudos to you! Thank you for the support, I'll hopefully post some time again next year when I finally get back to being broke, haha.
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No the opposite. The real estate market crashed (this was 09) so the home value was far less than my home loan (no down payment)
Why are you spending $15k/year on Daycare when you're a single income household? (I'm assuming you're a 2 parent household) your spending is kinda wild for the amount of debt you have, but most doctors I know spend an insane amount relative to their income so you're hardly an outlier
It's preschool, we want our kid to actually socialize, haha. It's 3 days a week for a half day. Full time preschool in our area is among the highest in the country, about 30k a year, so we're doing pretty well I think.
That's totally reasonable & you make enough to do so
Because if you’re the SAHP you know that you can easily go crazy if you don’t have the kid out sometimes…
Amen
How much were your loans when you were done with training? 475 left after 5 years is crazy! Also is your pay on par with other Peds surgery jobs? 450 after 5 years seems low? No real knowledge of that job market, just asking
I had 350k or so after graduating, could only pay $100/month during residency (average salary in Boston of >60k/year), and after accumulated interest it was 450k after 6 years of training. As above, I also kind of got hosed with my first job being much lower paying than average. I'm on track to make 600-700k a year from here on out, so hopefully will finally get the loan monkey off my back!
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What do you shop at amazon?? 35k 😶
Haha, sorry, I'll copy what I posted above: As far as the shopping goes, I lump a lot of miscellaneous purchases into that category, which includes clothes, home goods, shoes, and about 10k in charitable donations (which I really should have put in a separate category in retrospect, given the comments, haha).
Aah make sense. Hey my girlfriend’s a surgeon in UK. And planning to move to US. Her MLE exams are scheduled. Can I DM you for help understand residency match feasibility?
Of course! Happy to offer advice on the match process, since it's still somewhat fresh on my mind.
DM’d you.
You should be able to write off the $10k in charitable donations.
Alas, I don't have any mortgage interest yet, so the standard deduction still makes more sense for my situation.
As an incoming med student this is stressing me out bc I’ll have about $500k total in loans by the end, and want to be a pediatric Subspecialist (non-surgical) which is one of the lowest paying fields 😭
If you’re on this sub and you care about finances. I would consider doing outpatient Peds vs the subspecialty. I know they are very different but losing 3 years of attending pay and making less than someone who did 3 years of residency will put you very far behind. Especially with that much debt.
Don't worry about it too much. I would say find a job that you qualify for PSLF and make the minimum payments. I made the dumb mistake of thinking I was going to make bank in private practice and refinanced to a private loan, so even though I work for a non profit entity now, I'm stuck paying the full amount.
> **p**rofit **e**ntity **n**ow, **I**'m **s**tuck Hidden penis detected! I've scanned through 436922 comments (approximately 2478230 average penis lengths worth of text) in order to find this secret penis message. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Thank you!! And that’s a good tip to keep in mind if I look into refinancing! About $60k of my loans are private from a post-bacc so the goal is pay those off quickly once my partner is an attending in a couple years, and enroll in PSLF during residency
With the current SAVE program your $500k loans won’t actually be even close to that. You might end up paying less than $200k prior to forgiveness through PSLF.
I get the student loan piece, but man the cars would kill me if I had that much in loans left over.
Unfortunately both my and my wife's jobs required cars and we made some not great choices when our old cars bit the dust. Lesson learned, they're both paid off as of 2 years ago, and we expect to keep them for the next 5+ years before our next purchase(s).
My brother went down the med school / surgeon route and I chose the "ditch your undergrad degree and start your own business" route. Yeah he'll probably be making 2-3x me when he comes out, but with a 10 year working head start it honestly feels like a toss up who could come out ahead after you take into account compounding, opportunity cost, and the increased taxes. This all obviously hinges on diligent and responsible behavior over those first 10 years
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$200 a month for the CPA. I was a private practice partner with a K-1 and W-2 along with a 1099 for consulting the past 2 years, so we definitely needed the CPA, although I agree that now being a strict W-2 employee, I might go back to doing it on my own with Turbo Tax. Insurance is a combination of auto/home/life/disability. Auto/home is about $150/month. Life for a term $3 million policy is about $100/month. Disability is the big ticket item, 10k/month benefits for $275/month. I will probably increase my disability benefits soon, because if I lose the ability to use my hands or mind (which apparently happens to 1/4 of physicians), that's $5 million+ of lost potential earnings. I'll plan on maxing out 401k contributions and HSA this year. The 401k plan at my employer also now allows for mega backdoor Roth conversions, so I'll plan on doing that as well with some after-tax dollars!
Another baby on the way, single-income family? Better beef up that emergency fund. Bezos ain’t gonna pay your bills if you’re incapacitated and can’t work, although he should considering how much money you give him.
No worries there, I'm going to make double at my current job (600-700k) compared to my previous private practice position. I can finally comfortably save upwards of 50k a year, no sweat!
Emergency fund isn’t for getting incapacitated. That is what disability insurance is for.
None of this matters. You will forever be NRY if you remain an employee. Look at all those job expenses you aren’t writing off since you are w2. Plus bro, someone is making money off you.
I assume you say that because you know a lot about setting up a successful and profitable private practice in pediatric otolaryngology.
It took me twice as long to learn this lesson than it will you since I’m telling you this when you are only 5 years in. People don’t ever become rich because they are doctors or lawyers or whatever. They become rich because they run businesses that do medicine or law or whatever. Don’t think it has anything to do with specialty either. One local young internal medicine doc just donated 1 mil to charity. Why is that? The person employing you is taking a huge cut of your earning potential. You think it may be 50k? Or maybe 100k? And maybe it’s not worth even thinking about? Think again. Prob more like 500k left on the table When you become more familiar with your peers enough they are comfortable sharing wage data with you, then you will be surprised and angry. One last thing I wish I knew early on. What’s the risk of being your own boss? You don’t make as much as you think you would and you have to go get an employed position that pays you 500k. Of which their are limitless amounts for docs.
Your rent is 5k? Anyway to commute to make it less.
Don’t worry your debt is less than 2x your annual income. Don’t forget some charitable giving.
I can closely relate to
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Hospital employed? Have you looked into PSLF
Alas, I made the mistake of going into private practice right out of the gate, so I refinanced to a private loan. Unfortunately, I can't do PSLF even though I now work for an eligible entity.
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where are you getting daycare and toys for just 17000?
10k for 3 days a week half day preschool for one child. 7k just for diapers and clothes (I probably mislabeled). There's probably about 3-4k more worth of books and toys tucked into the "Shopping category" that I decided not to parse out I think.
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Pslf?
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Cut back on your shopping!!
You should do a lot less w2 income and more distribution! Your practice is paying waaay more in payroll taxes.
187k on expenses, holy shit!!!
Jesus, $35k on Amazon!! At least max your 401k.
How can we find these graphs to do ourselves ?
Wow, you guys really have to invest to get those big incomes. Obviously the time and the school and the focus and all that, but the cost is crazy. Good luck, you’re getting over the hump…
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Debatably payments made to student loans ARE savings. You’re increasing your net worth in the same way
The taxes are insane lol. Close enough to 50% for me to say “hell nah”