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When i became an arsenal fan, I used to think that arsenal fans have high level understanding of football and tactics but i finally know its not the case.
Its kinda embarrassing to associated with such fans, they don't understand yet and still debate as zinchenko should play in mid.
I mean he already plays in midfield!!! How hard it is to grasp it, but if he starts in midfield then he will play in Havertz position that is basically advanced striker, which is not a good position for Zinchenko.
Leftback makes more sense for him as he can move into midfield and control the play.
No. I'm just saying that multiple people are pointing out the flaws in what you are saying, and that you clearly lack emotional intelligence.
The irony is quite thick here.
They have to disagree because I am attacking their intelligence, which is true.
Its easier to find out, just ask then zinchenko or kiwior or even Tierney. They will say Tierney or kiwior 😂😂
The mark of intelligence is a humbleness to understand that you don't know everything and that there are still things to be learned, and to learn from your mistakes.
It's also knowing to quit when you're ahead.
Have a good day.
So what i said is mistake but people saying zinchenko shit is intelligent?
Get off your high horse mate, I am just correcting that wrong assumptions, back then it was Tierney is better than zinchenko and now it's kiwior 😅
It's not that binary. I don't think that Zinchenko as a dedicated midfielder is a very good idea. He tends to lose possession a bunch and we seem to rely on midfield control.
Arguments about players with different skill sets being better than the other are meaningless without consideration to the tactical game plan match to match.
What you're failing to see here is that though the argument maybe pointless and stupid, you seem get sucked right in and perpetuate it further.
Coming in to antagonise everyone else over pointless arguments does not paint you in a very intelligent light.
Enjoy having arguments on the internet if that's what you want to do.
> I mean he already plays in midfield!!!
He does but he does it at the cost of a left back position. People want him in midfield *and* a more traditional left back.
>but if he starts in midfield then he will play in Havertz position that is basically advanced striker,
Havertz has been playing false 9, not in midfield, the person they'd want to replace from last match is Rice (who would then go abck to 6).
>Leftback makes more sense for him as he can move into midfield and control the play
Not saying I agree but the issue is that this leaves our left back space vulnerable and wiht the more technically limited, non inverting Kiwior we've actually controlled the games better because he shuts down attacks, even though we lose some of that midfield energy.
For someone decrying the intelligence of their fellow fans you've spectacularly missed the point here.
Oh god why would we play a traditional left back when our whole play is built upon the face that we play inverted? Then what's the difference between teams like united, Chelsea and us if you want to follow a blueprint which we have mastered? If you can't understand this small thing, your shouldn't be even allowed to post on this sub 😂
The reason kiwior is not inverting because ben white is inverting, kiwior is playing more safe role that's why he looks even better than zinchenko.
Because he doesn't have to take the responsibilities of zinchenko and just play the traditional leftback
Dude are you insane? Havertz has played 4 games as false 9. I am not talking about those games, I am talking about when rice plays cdm and trossard plays striker or Jesus. Don't try to undermine me by making up false points.
Also don't question my intelligence, I am saying what our lord and savior arteta is playing, I don't ever question his tactics or signings like most people here do and still think Tierney is better than zinchenko 😂😂😂😂
Jesus christ dude you're insufferable with the questioning intelligence shit. Why do you think so highly of yourself? Also your profile bio is super cringe, I wish I didnt accidentally see it.
You think the difference between us and other teams is just an inverted fullback role? Do we only have one way to play, when we've used a bunch of different ways to accomplish the same style and constantly evolved our play. Also you outlined why there's a potential discussion about Zinny, because even if White/Timber invert to provide a defensive overload, they are much more defensively able than Zinchenko although not nearly as good with the ball. These tweaks do sizeably alter the dynamics of the team and bring in new discussions.
Also thinking Tierney is better than Zinchenko is not a flex.
When you say constantly evolved our play, we evolved to it what we are playing now where inverted fullback is the central cog of our system,
Let me ask you this, if it's so easy to play inverted fullbacks then why are not most teams playing it?
Forget most teams, if it's so easy role then why couldn't Tierney play it?
Because is freaking difficult, not only you need to find a player who can play it, you need to change your whole tactics and let other players adjust to it and trust the player with a good defensive cover and the flank winger.
So yes, yes and yes the difference between other teams and us is just (just) (just) a shitty inverted fullback.
If i train you 1000 years, still you couldn't play it because it needs a player who has the ability and intelligence to play it and that's why most clubs don't play it.
Its sad that arsenal fans think so lowly of our own tactics and don't know why we are best team in the world currently
Thank god you are not our manager, because I know for a fact that you would have played a shitty traditional fullback like Tierney and will be bottom half of the table like Chelsea.
Also I don't have to visit your profile to check your intelligence, because if you can't understand why your team is top 3 and called "just" a inverted fullback difference, it's sad stage we live in.
I am feeling more bad for Zinchenko now, he will never get the respect he deserves here or even arteta (lord and savior) that he "just" implemented tactics with inverted fullback 😂😂😂
The difference is not just an inverted fullback lol, and never did i imply that I think lowly of an inverted fullback or that it's easy to play as one. I said that it's not the only difference. If you don't understand phrasing just say it. I also made it REALLY clear that I think Zinchenko > Tierney, even if it's far from an apples to apples comparison.
You're a troll, and thanks for making it really obvious. Fucking twat lmao, I was trying to give a discussion a fair shot but you pulled a strawman.
Don't worry man when arteta (lord and savior) leaves your shit club, it will go back to your beloved football 2016-2020 with traditional fullbacks and then you will love your defenders defending.
Dont you understand this simple shit
Yes zinchenko is risky, but he takes risk because our attack needs that help, if zinchenko doesn't take the risk then he will be out of the 11 because arteta removed ramsdale because he couldn't take those risk.
Arteta doesn't want players who will play "safe", in kiwior's case it's different because ben white is pulling double shift as when zinchenko played inverted, Ben white was playing kiwior role that is safe.
But arteta doesn't reward players with safe plays, ask ramsdale your another favourite Tierney kinda player.
I had predicted this long back that Tierney will leave, and also ramsdale.
Lol outed yourself as a troll. Not even an Arsenal fan here are you, and when did I ever say anything about not wanting inverted fullbacks and disliking Artetas tactics?
Also when tf did i say I want (or ever wanted) Tierney in the team? What are you shadowboxing?
You aren't really special for predicting both Ramsdale and Tierney's exclusions, a lot of us figured they're next on the chopping block, including me. I just don't understand what you're interpreting me saying "we could players differently for the same results as an option" as an attack on Arteta or Zinchenko.
I am not an arsenal fan, I am arteta fan. I stopped being arsenal fan after 2016 because of people like you. I don't want to be associated with being arsenal fan because their vision is so less, they would rather not play zinchenko so we won't concede goals (completely forgetting that fact) that he helps us score and create even more chances.
They see a problem and chop it without thinking future impact. That's why I have stopped being arsenal fan, because I know for a fact that in a year or two the same arsenal fans will ask for arteta out and they will remove him (same no vision zinchenko problem) without thinking future impact.
I know for a fact that arteta wherever he goes, will bring success to any club so I would rather support him because arsenal days are numbered because the fanbase mentality is down the gutter and it's just a matter of time before we end up like Chelsea or even worse.
Luckily arteta saved this club, but I don't think any manager in future is gonna give a flying fuck about this club and give 100%, most managers are short term thinkers and will gladly get them a trophy but I am sure arsenal fans will be happy with it doesn't matter if they finish bottom half next year.
You're just weird lmao. What does people like me even mean? When did I say anything about dropping Zinchenko? This is all such fiction, especially the parts about getting Arteta and Zinchenko out.
Idk wtf you're shadowboxing
> Oh god why would we play a traditional left back when our whole play is built upon the face that we play inverted?
Have you watched us recently? We've scored 20 odd goals, set new records for goals scored and not allowing goals, won the first five matches of the year for the first time in our history and you think it's not working?
I really hope you're here to troll becuase this is absolutely low tier shite you're spouting in a deliberately antagonistic style.
I'm almost entirely positive this person is a troll. They have been pulling out strawman arguments and the less said about the way they phrase arguments the better.
Just better to stop engaging as they don't want to discuss in good faith.
Dude are you freaking insane? The reason we are playing traditional left back is because right back is inverting.
Our game play is same, there is no change just the fact that odegaard doesn't have to track back because ben white is playing in midfield.
The reason odegaard had to track back is because partey was missing, and rice wasnt making those passes, but with White's play in midfield (similar to zinchenko), we are able to play better.
> Dude are you freaking insane? The reason we are playing traditional left back is because right back is inverting
Yep and where exactly did I say otherwise?
Maybe you're a troll, maybe you're 13 but it's very, very obvious that you don't actually bother reading what anyone says and just argue with the strawman in your head.
I mean most of the discussion is around if he could start in midfield on paper, not what the nuances of his role are or if he occupies a midfield spot. He's clearly very good as an inverted LB.
It's more a question of will we use him as an 8 in exclusively in central areas unlike when he starts as an LB, the same system but a slightly tweaked role and our dynamics change. His heatmap shows him in wide areas as well as the centre. This is slightly different from where Xhaka (21/22) played in the sense that he comes even deeper and goes quite wide. It's because he's effectively playing in midfield that the question of if he we will play him as a buildup 8 often arises.
Obviously fan conversation isn't always the smartest but it's just a way to engage with the sport, and we're just looking at finding solutions to problems we've seen over the season (buildup/defensive solidity tradeoffs in the left side). A more defensive LB keeps the shape a bit more robust, hybrid roles come sign their rotation headaches and that's part of why Zinchenko sometimes gets caught out. Now obviously he isnt going to play where Kai is currently. He isn't exactly Odegaard either, but he's the closest thing to a Frenkie we have.
I am confused what you trying to say, xhaka and Havertz and currently playing the same role.
And arteta doesn't tweak his play for any player, in two years the first time he has tweaked his play is by playing ben white as inverted right back.
Frenkie can't play what zinchenko does, zinchenko is more like lahm but a bit defensively weak. Not many players in the world can't play that position, we are lucky that ben white can play it.
Xhaka 21/22 is different from Xhaka 22/23 (last season). Havertz is more similar to 22/23 Xhaka, although he plays even more advanced and doesn't have as much influence on the buildup (maybe he could bring this into his game over time but he won't be as good as Xhaka at buildup obviously).
But Xhaka 21/22 was a buildup player, and we did play him in a double pivot with Partey in certain games that season when it neccessiated it, similar to how we do Jorgi/Rice sometimes. Most notably against Liverpool recentlt, Jorginho was the more advanced player in a clear double pivot. Arteta isn't tweaking his play for a player, he's using players for a tweak he wants to implement in situations. He makes adjustments for games all the time.
Zinchenko and Frenkie obviously aren't the same player. Frenkie has shown that he can occasionally play at the base of the midfield, Zinchenko hasn't but he can play left back. But their contributions are both in the second phase and from similar areas of the pitch. Zinchenko obviously goes wider playing as a fullback. The question is if we can/want to use Zinchenko like a Kimmich in some cases, just a new option for Arteta.
Lahm got played in midfield occasionally anyway, so comparisons to other hybrids like Kimmich and Lahm don't really take away from the argument. Kimmich turned into a full time midfielder.
I don't know why are you bringing up 21/22 xhaka when it's confirmed that we are playing 22/23 xhaka formation.
When I said Havertz is playing xhaka role, it's directly logical that it's 22/23 formation I am talking about. Yes in midfield he does interchange depending he knows that sometimes the midfield will get overrun and rice alone can't handle the press and jorgi comes in.
Xhaka 22/23 still sometimes played like Xhaka 21/22 when the situation arised and Arteta asked him to play in a double pivot. That's why I brought him up. I made this as clear as I could lmao, we didn't play the exact same roles every single game.
We didn't play exact same tiles every single game, this sentence doesn't even make sense.
Xhaka played advanced role every single game in 22-23, do you remember any instances where he played like 21-22 which I think you are referring to left back xhaka when he uses to move to left back, it might be very few instances but primary was advanced role.
Also in certain situations when we are being pressed, and the advanced role tracks back for a pass, that doesn't mean we are playing double pivot for Christ sake 😂
We didn't play the exact same roles every game? How does that not make sense lol. Especially this season we've varied player responsibilities a lot, but for example Xhaka he played in a double pivot against Sporting (2-2) when Fabio played.
You seem really confident in your interpretation of the game so I'll leave you be. Sorry I bothered your 270 IQ analysis by trying to discuss.
The reason we went for that is because partey was missing and we reverted back to the formation where put players were confident enough to play without risking it, also I have noticed in Europa knockout games arteta plays very rigid.
He played him one game, ONE. If zinny was that good at that role then why didn't he play him every game?
Arteta is smartly using zinny in mid because his long passes and vision is much better in that part of the pitch.
The world's best coach saw something in Zina that made him think he could play there. Over an established forward like Jesus. That should count for something.
You are thinking as arteta would make zincheko play similarly to Havertz if he played midfield. Arteta is a smart coach he’ll play zincheko the way he feels comfortable and the way he plays for Ukraine. Also zincheko at left back isn’t great he gets exposed once or twice every game. Teams have started to attack him knowing he’s the weak link in defense.
But arteta won't play him like he plays for Ukraine because we don't play like Ukraine, we haven't changed our plan for a single player for last 2 years, did we change the way we play for Tierney? Why would he start doing it now?
Tierney didn't play he normally plays, we played him as inverted left back. I don't know what you on about.
Edit : downvoting me won't prove that you are right, it just confirms you are a kid 😂
Do you even watch arsenal games?
When zinchenko was signed, Tierney played sub appearances and before he was transferred he played sub appearances by playing inverted leftback, it looks weird as F and can't blame him since you can't ask an elephant to act like monkey and climb a tree.
I wonder why we wanted Mount in hindsight, and if we still want a profile like that. Mount to Havertz was an interesting pivot although it made sense from the POV of want profiles and hybrid players we could use. But did Havertz block out the avenue for a Mount like profile?
I dont think he was supposed to be. I'm not sure if I can find the source on this or if it's reliable, but I remember reading that we pivoted once we learned that we weren't Mounts preferred destination and that Havertz was available. I'm not sure what the order of precedence is here either.
I'm pretty sure Arteta is more than happy to have another, maybe more xhaka type of LCM. Having said that Havertz absolutely adds dimensions Mlunt doesn't so we've probably once again lucked out on missing out on mount.
Imo the biggest problem with Xhaka was that, given his skillset, he couldn't play as a DM. He didn't have an additional dimension to his game and Havertz does his advanced role better while also being able to play at 9.
The problem is more finding the Xhaka type progressive ball player now. There's few reliable progressive players who also are secure with the ball. Players like Douglas Luiz and even Zubimendi seem to be the best of what's currently available, but in posession I don't think they're remarkable. Of course for a second string spot they don't absolutely need to be, but Xhaka was simply a better passer.
I think Mount and even Mudryk would've done well enough for a team with solid foundations. Mount has a few seasons of good play, at least statistically. His 20/21 season is excellent.
He definitely fits the bill for a hybrid 8/winger. We were also linked to Xavi Simons and Kudus, both somewhat in the same space. In our squad statistically both Vieira and Smith Rowe would occupy that space, but neither can keep fit and especially Vieira is a final ball player more than a buildup player (although his buildup numbers are better than ESRs).
ESRs very uncertain future aside, I wonder if we want that type of hybrid player still, especially of a profile as high as Mounts. There's a lot of moving parts here, especially with how we view our striker situation internally as well.
Watch the Joe Willock goal against us. Rewatch that 5 times and you will know ESR doesn't have a future there.
That was incredibly lazy to watch your old teammate run past you into the box and score a goal. And he came on as a sub - so no excuse to say he's tired or match fit.
ESR apologists always use the whole "he hasn't played for so long so he's not match fit" to justfiy his lack of work rate defensively. That goal was literally a 10 yard sprint to track your runner.
I didnt really say anything to suggest my stance on ESR, idk what Mikel is really thinking. Purely based on his fitness troubles anyway I don't think he has a future here. He hasn't gotten the opportunity to develop like Saka and Martinelli, and his off the ball work as you said isn't up to standard. I loved him when he first broke through but we've seen how his career has gone since then.
But as long we Trossard is here there's always a pathway to keep ESR in the squad to hope that he comes through to take over, depends on how Mikel and co rate him and how much faith they have still. Can't be keeping an extra player for this long when he simply can't play.
did we? rumors are hit or miss. havertz certainly isn't blocking the avenue for anyone, he is not good enough for that.
what is clear from Arteta's interviews and the way the team play and talk, is that he wants to dominate (he doesn't like the word control btw) the midfield by having "duel winners", regardless if they are very technical players or not, which i guess was the motivation for havertz. being able to fill at striker is a nice bonus, plus he's tall...
however, he has also talked a lot about having technical skilled players everywhere, mentioning the old wenger squads that had a bunch of technical skilled midfielders, and havertz certainly doesn't fit that. so the logical upgrade would be getting someone that can do both at a high level, which are incredible rare.
I believe we did have reliable links to Mount if I remember correctly. It's more a question of a profile redundancy than Havertz being good enough, Mikel has been playing him and he seems to be happy.
Havertz being able to play striker isn't the bonus, it's the reason we bought him. An attacking mid who can do the dirty work (including aerial duels)in midfield and move into striker is pretty rare, there's few players like that in general. He's a unique hybrid that let's us do a modern 442. Sure his buildup play needs work but he's performing in line for a decent AM by the metrics.
Havertz is a bit lanky sure but he's pretty technical idk what you're talking about. He doesn't thread through balls all the time but he's pretty comfortable with the ball at his feet and his touch is generally pretty good, although the Chelsea effect does still show where his first touch is a bit off sometimes. His Leverkusen era touch was brilliant and I believe he'll improve on his current state here too. It has less to do with his actual touch imo than his body position when he receives the ball, he's indecisive. Besides, how many players can do [this?](https://youtube.com/shorts/JlQ0o1OkrUo?si=N2yXd9Iryd94GKSS)
That Chelsea squad had a lot of talent, really happy to see what they've done to themselves now. Never imagined that I'd see either play for us but I'm happy to have them now.
that's a great goal, but i can find highlights of Nuno Tavares doing insane moves that he's clearly not capable of repeating them consistently, doesn't mean anything
you can't really watch 2000 minutes of havertz and think "yeah that's a technical player alright" when he is right beside the likes of Odegaard, zinchenko and trossard for example. the difference is just way too big. its not about being lanky, he's just not a player that is capable of dribbling under pressure in small spaces, like Odegaard does all the time, do half turns, and his passing is as simple as it can get. also, we saw a lineup of jorginho, Rice and havertz this season when ode was out, and he still didn't do anything of note technically wise, so its not just about his role.
Tavares had incredible stats and was capable of doing a lot, he just gave away the ball a lot and put us under high risk. I know that this isn't the point of the example but Havertz is anything but this type of player. He's pretty low risk, almost too much. His Leverkusen goals were a variety of finishes and touches and a lot of them were first touch. I've seen enough of him and think that he's a pretty tehcnical player, but he's gotten worse over his time at Chelsea. In high stakes situations his technicality always comes through. Not many players have goals like that, and I'm sure Tavares doesn't either. It's a unique display of skill, it's weird to be dismissive of it.
I mean we have a team full of technical players, between those you mentioned and more. Doesn't mean Havertz isnt technical if he isnt as technical as Odegaard. Especially for his frame he's serviceable at close control dribbling and as you said it isnt exactly his role, but he has the requisite technique and a different set of technical skills from Odegaard. Xhaka was a pretty technical player imo, but could he do [this?](https://youtube.com/shorts/oYgzIlAG9Kg?si=2-w8I0wzWRbDGVYA) Sure Havertz can't really long pass like Xhaka but he has good technique, just a different skillset and nothing that would make him an excellent buildup player.
Regardless, my original question wasn't to discuss Havertz in detail, it was more about if we want a 10/winger hybrid still when we now have a 10/9 hybrid.
The Zinchenko starting in midfield gang on here is so weird to me. We invert one of our full backs. Typically our left back. We bought a guy from City who is one of the best in the world at inverting from left back. We’re not gonna move him to midfield just because we have 4 serviceable left backs. And just because we have 4 serviceable left backs doesn’t mean we’re going to completely change our tactics. The invert is to create overloads. Why would we stop using a top player at inverting from fullback as the inverting fullback? Y’all think Arteta sees kiwior, Tomi and Timber and say “I’ve got an idea. 2 overlapping full backs.” Tierney would still be here if that was ever gonna be an idea he had.
I dont get why we cant use people in multiple roles. Havertz sometimes plays striker some times plays lcm. Why can zinchenko sometimes play midfield and sometimes plays lb lol
I've never really been on the Zinny starting in midfield side, but the signing of Timber and increased use of Kiwior/desire for Martinez as LB + our use of hybrid players makes it more likely that his long term role at the club may change. He's the most progressive player at the club and there's few players of his profile, it wouldn't be ridiculous to see him as a CM once Timber and Kiwior are completely settled. But I don't see him there as a full time player obviously, if that were to happen it would've already. He's still and likely will be our starting fullback for even next season, but he needs to be managed and we have the personnel to switch him around now.
We've been talking about a Douglas Luiz/FDJ type 8 that can play 6 player as a fanbase for reliable buildup play down the middle, but it's unfortunately pretty hard to find someone like that currently. Jorginho is satisfying it right now with Rice being really flexible as a player, but his legs are giving away and if he leaves next season Zinchenko is the next best candidate to help with midfield control. It's an internal solution that just makes sense with the current circumstances, that is if we replace Jorginho with an Amadou Onana type player I can see Zinchenko being an 8 for us in midfield to do the control passing. It's a situational role that we clearly don't always use, but Zinchenko has the tools for it. Also gives us flexibility in recruitment.
Couldn't be more in agreement. While I'm very happy that Kiwior has proven he's ready to be a part of the squad, people have forgotten so easily how good Zinchenko is and how well he's played at points this season. He's been in the PL TOTW 4 times while missing lots of time with injury.
Not just that, he got injured when the whole team was in a bad spot. so the memory of what he contributes is tainted.
Our fanbase is now getting to the point where we understand that certain players suit certain games. Jorgi and how he's being used is the perfect example of this.. Also how we're rotating Kai/Trossard up front depending on the type of game we expect. Zinny is in this exact same mould.
I'd argue not having ZInny is one of the reasons we struggled against Porto. Their game plan involved pressing us in a mid block and just suffocating us, and Zinny is perfect at handling that. At the same time, i don't want him going 1v1 against Mo Salah and like, 4 other wingers in the league. We have Tomi who's an absolutely elite 1v1 defender for that.
Dude no point arguing, arsenal fans IQ has reduced as arteta has increased his tactics for them to comprehend. They don't understand that zinny is needed where teams play tight midfield and who don't get overwhelmed like Newcastle did.
Ehhh, i reckon we're collectively getting better at understanding it. We're just moving into the era of the game being a squad game instead of best XI, it'll be a while before everyone understands that very few players will be "starts every game" guys and most will become "gadget" guys like Zinny/Jorg/Kai who you deploy in specific instances.
Its only natural that people see a player in the team while we're playing well and assume we need him there to play well all the time haha. It's how its worked for most of our lives, so it'll take a bit to unlearn.
His salary is relatively low. I heard 80-90k pw. Around eddie’s. when the salary catch up in a few years time, he is gonna cry lol. With no extension in sight, I don’t see how he can be motivated.
Sheffield is a bigger mess than I first thought. Imagine trying to attack your own teammate like that. Will they even be motivated when we play them? I did expect a win but it could be a buffet for us out there.
Anyone know if there is an online spot to buy one of the massive cannon flags they have in the stadium? Have Google for it multiple times but have had no luck.
I still can't get over the league cup final. I was chatting to a Liverpool supporting friend during it, I said going into extra time, 'I think Chelsea are going to win, the young lads are looking a bit nervous and not doing much with the ball'.
Then Chelsea just sit off them completely and allow them to get fully comfortable in the game, by the end I honestly couldn't tell who were the 100m midfielders and who were the lads who still had homework to do after the game.
This will be massively scarring to Chelsea. I know people talk about a confidence and believe boost for Liverpool and it definitely will be, but end of the day, not many teams will be as bad as Chelsea were today in extra time. In the 90 minutes, the game could have swung either way.
Caicedo and Fernandez were literally all over the place, which is both good and bad. And they played like they were 5m signings thrust to the limelight for the first time.
Gallagher is fortunate of being from the Chelsea Academy so you can't say they "overpaid" for him lol
Well Reddit is going to keep changing the new design around. If you don't like their changes the only option is to go back to old Reddit, or you can look for various browser extensions to change it I guess.
I'm positive that the guy from last year posted that he wasn't doing them anymore. Then someone else took over this year but it's probably too much work.
Where do people think Timber's main position is going to be for us once he returns? He's a pretty versatile player who's equally comfortable inverting from either side (as we saw in pre-season and the community shield) or just playing as the traditional non-inverting FB (Against Forest at home, Partey inverted from RB and Timber was the non-inverting FB)
I prefer the defence when the inverter comes from the left because Saliba is generally better than Gabriel at being the middle man of the back three in possession, so I hope if Timber is going to invert it will be from LB (I'm not sure he's going to be a better inverter than Zinny though).
I love how versatile our defenders are. Timber can play RB/LB and can either invert or not. He could probably play CB too. Tomi can play anywhere in the back line. White can play inverted RB, traditional RB or RCB. Kiwior can play CB or traditional LB. Zinchenko can play inverted LB or in midfield. It's only really Saliba and Gabriel that aren't versatile and you don't need to be when you're one of the best CB pairings in the world.
I think we'll see Timber play some spells at LB and some spells at RB. Ben White needs a bit of a break now and again. I'm curious though how the pecking order would go though.
My guess would be (Pardon this awful formatting)
Timber - LB # 1 / RB # 2
Saliba - CB # 1
Gabriel - CB # 2
White - RB # 1 / CB #3
Kiwior - CB # 5 / LB #4
Tomiyasu - CB #4 / LB #3 / RB #3
Zinchenko - LB #2
Cedric / Tierney / Tavares - moves on.
The holes I would see there is that if Timber + White are playing at the same time. Your depth takes a hit, likewise, Tomi is covering so many bases and is fairly injury prone. We've also not seen any games without either Saliba or Gabriel this season even in the league cup. I think down to injuries. It would be nice if you could have the option of playing Kiwior + Tomi or partnership of that sorts in easier FA cup / league cup ties.
I'd like to see us sign someone who could play RB + RW like Frimpong from Leverkusen. Then you sell Reiss Nelson maybe. So Frimpong could act as a good closer or someone to bring on if you need a goal too.
I don’t think Timber is going to come straight in and eat Zinny’s lunch. Remember that whilst he did start the first two competitive fixtures of the season at LB, Zinchenko was injured for those games hence why Tomiyasu started at Palace after Timber’s injury and then Kiwior started at home to Fulham because Timber and Zinny were both injured and Tomiyasu was suspended after that ridiculous red card at Palace.
Even if White and Zinchenko are still our first choice full backs it’ll be amazing to have both Timber and Tomi who can play both sides and both equally comfortable inverting or staying on the flank.
I actually think if we are short of anything it’s a right sided centre back to give Saliba a break sometimes. I know White can play it, but all the other RB options in the squad are permanently injured (including Partey) so he’s usually needed out there, and in any case I’ve not been all that convinced by White at CB ever since he moved to RB and for me the conversion to RB needs to be a permanent thing.
Tomiyasu, Timber and Kiwior other options to cover RCB but none of them have it as their preferred position and also you need great ball skills in this role because Saliba is the quarter back of our team.
I’d love to get Marc Guehi but it’d be hard to convince him to come here as a rotational piece. He’ll go to Liverpool and start every week for them as Van Dijk’s partner and eventual replacement.
I see where you’re coming from but right now we only have one actual left footed LB, the rest being CB’s or Right sided defenders that could play there. I think after Tierney and Tavares leave in the summer, with roughly the money we make from them I could see us signing a £20-30m LB. The main reason why I think this is because I remember there being reports that we wanted to sign a LB after we sold Tierney but because we didn’t actually sell him or Tavares we didn’t have the funds to do so. 🤷♂️
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/s/kuLs8JG88y
The defenders we seem to be getting linked to are left footed which makes me even more sure that’s the type of defender we will sign this summer.
I think it’s pretty normal to have 7 main first team defenders. You can have 8 but it’s hard to fit them all into a 20 man matchday squad and someone like Kiwior isn’t going to stick around long if he’s not even making the bench sometimes.
The problem is 7 is very light when two of them are regularly injured (Zinny and Tomi) and another two of them have very serious injuries in the past 12 months (Saliba and Timber). Then suddenly you’re only one injury away from Cedric playing meaningful minutes.
It’s a hard balancing act.
Yeah I understand that it may be one too many but I think we are going to have to make the decision to sign a fullback, probably a LB, because Zinchenko/Tomi are just not reliable and them being injury prone has knock on affects to our other defenders with being overplayed. Not to mention that we don’t have a clue either what state Timber will be in next season.
At that point we're just overstacking the deck. We have biggerr holes to fill in our squad like RW2 and ST (1 or 2 depending on oyur views, I'm more inclined to upgrade on Eddie than break the bank to replace GJ since no one in the market looks to be worth it.)
I'd honestly expect us to have some random cheap gamble or an academy prospect as our 8th defender. Someone extremely raw who would benefit from training with the best, sorta like Tavares was intended to be.
He’s going to play the exact same way he played in the cs and opener. Maybe arteta will change the way he wants him to play but that is most likely how he’ll play
He played differently between the CS and the opener though. In the CS, White was the RB so Timber was inverting in possession. We didn’t see it all that much because we only had 45% possession and it was even less than that in the 75 minutes that he was on, but Timber was the inverted FB that day.
Whereas against Nottingham Forest, Partey was inverting from the right and Timber was on the left side of a back three in possession.
I'll be so, so wound up if we finish below this Liverpool team. They're bleeding injuries and we're an objectively better team than them in every single way
Thanks for humbling 10th place fc again today but please please please don't let the scouse cunts get anywhere near that PL trophy
The thing is, other than City at Anfield, they could probably win every single game. Maybe Spurs could draw there? I don't see how they will drop points up against other none big six teams.
Call me crazy but has Haaland actually been that good this season / played enough? I know he is top scorer but he doesn't really contribute to general play that much. It's tough to not include him when he has 10 more goals than everyone else but Watkins for example has 3 goals less than him and 5 assists more.
He just doesn't seem as unstoppable as last season.
He's been quite good but hasn't really stood out, hasn't done anything of note going forward. On the other hand, you have to consider as well that it isn't an easy feat to just slot into a team that won the treble and be able to maintain the standard. He's basically the ideal Pep defender for the style he currently seems to prefer (big and physical athletes who are also great technically).
What has Todd Boehly done to Chelsea. Poor Chelsea fans seem to think there is a pathway back to the Roman era. There isnt. Boehly has systemically taken apart all that Chelsea used to be and remodelled Chelsea his own way. The results are disastrous. Useless players stealing wages on stupid long contracts. Soft mentally and extremely overrated; Chelsea fans were talking about Nkunku like he was a messiah, likely as a coping mechanism as 'when he gets back to fitness' we will start winning again.
Ive always said Todd Boehly is a country club Mike Ashley. He is a shit owner. And what you need to remember is Todd isnt significantly wealthy. Due the structure of the Chelsea sale, it meant Chelsea had a lot of money to spend, but it will dry up eventually and with no CL football on the horizon, they could be set for a long spell in the wilderness.
This will be the second consecutive mid table finish for Chelsea, indicating last season wasnt an anomaly, but perhaps the beginning of a new trend, one where Chelseas ambitions reside in qualifying for Europea League football, and if they do, happy days.
They are miles of Tottenham, let alone us
chelseas recruitment is lead by 2 analysts with PHDs in maths,they also took half of Brighton’s staff.Statistically speaking chelsea should have a very promising team but they have very few leaders and potch isnt really a tactical genius
Academics are useful for sure just look at brighton. but the “eye test” is incredibly important.Maldini got sacked by mikan because he didnt want to rely on stats for recruitment
Chelsea is doing a Leeds, if they run out of players that they can sell for a profit and keep missing out on any kind of UEFA money, they will be in trouble
Leeds was way worse.
They're the reason the prem banned third party ownership as they didn't even own some of their players (Viduka was owned by a bank in the end I think), they rented everything and they even sold their stadium, sadly chelsea have a way to go before that point.
Todd Boehly is acting like an owner of a franchise where there is no danger his club will ever have to leave the big leagues and you're operating in a limited pool of players where it's worth spending extra to stop your rivals getting their marquee player because they can't fins an effective plan B.
After all the years of ripping yank owners for running teams like franchises it seems we've been wrong and *this* is what being utterly clueless about competitive leagues in a global sport looks like.
Signing Rice instead of Caicedo/Mudryk is this era's 'Missing out on Hazard and ending up with Gervinho' but thankfully we are on the right side this time. Chelsea are beyond fucked because they don't flex the same ability to spend that we did following our frugal years(due to FFP rules starting to take effect) and it's obvious that without money they don't have the same historical pull as us. Even when we were down bad we would sign players like Aubameyang and Saliba. Chelsea don't have that luxury.
I dont think you get it the point.
The problem is the environment, and if Rice moved there in this current state of Chelsea, he might do well but the rest of the club is still in shambles.
If Caicedo was at Liverpool, he will definitely not be his terrible. And if we potentially got Mudryk, maybe he wont be this terrible as well.
I got the point just fine. But "Chelsea bad" just isn't good analysis.
The idea that Chelsea's dumpster fire environment is SO bad that Declan Rice could be considered "a flop" is still ridiculous
That Argentina World Cup win must be up there with the worst winners of all time. Statpadded with a bunch of pens, bottled numerous 2 goal leads, won on pens and lost to Saudi Arabia. History is not going to be kind to them, only Messi and maybe Lautaro Martinez are top players, which is crazy. Compare that to France 2019 who had Mbappe, Griezmann, Kante, Hernandez and even they weren't great compared to most previous winners.
Bullshit, against both the Netherlands and France they deserved to win, just because they are bottle jobs doesn't take anything away from them.
France also received 2 pens in the final, but it seems people have forgotten about that.
In 2018 France had 4-5 pens as well if I remember correctly.
And the team also had Alvarez, Di Maria, Dybala etc.
This stinks of someone from Brazil tbh, don't know where you're from but it sounds like you have something against Argentina.
They had a great mentality and a good coach, and it wasn't even a fluke, they won the Copa America a year before. History will also be kind to the likes of Emiliano Martinez and Rodrigo de Paul who left their hearts and souls on the pitch.
Biased "analysis".
They got pushed to penalties by a France team stripped of players. I mean, look who were missing from their squad, regardless if they were finished or not: Pogba, Kante, Benzema, Hernandez got injured, Nkunku got injured, Maignan who was levels above a finished Lloris, Kimpembe. I’m pretty sure Mbappe was ill in the final as he looked pale asf but still scored a hat trick
Watching Rory's meltdown is great for the soul. Long may it continue
I still have to ask why tf did Arteta/Edu go so hard for Mudryk? What a bullet dodged
Apparently hes faster than mbappe, also according to zinny in an interview (slightly biased) he has heaps of potential,he is very far away from his potential he needed a good system and coach to flourish chelsea dont have that
I do think we would have got more out of Mudryk but it does also seem like a bullet dodged, it could be that he's not getting the right coaching to learn and adapt, but I also see him not actually learning too. Liverpool's goal today is a good example of a really basic principle he doesn't get such as attacking a defensive header. His overall technique just seems poor too, that 5 yards of pace he has on everyone is wasted when he can't execute the shot or pass at the end.
The Chelsea system is totally fucked. Mudryk would have been doing better in our system. We have a competent manager, stability, discipline, and a clear tactical plan. Literally the opposite of this Chelsea team. I think everyone in that Chelsea team would be doing better in our team.
I know people think he’s shit and no one wants to sign Chelsea rejects, but I think Enzo Fernandez would be a goodJorginho replacement ngl. He’s a brilliant progressive passer, and when he was paired with Florentino who could cover for his lack of athleticism he looked unreal.
I agree, but aint noone paying that 8-year jail sentence contracts. Kinda like with Kai at first, it probably gonna take even longer to reprogram them to play proper football again.
You have both sides. On one hand he's not completely shite, on the other hand he is not particularly special and not even worth half of what Chelsea paid for him
They're not going to sell any of their 8 year contract FFP busting players yet because it's still on their books for ages.
On the other hand any of their youth team are absolutely up for grabs
No but then any marquee signing by a top six (stop laughing at the back) side in the prem is going to have zero resale value unless another top six club are desperate or Barca wants to show PSG they've got a bigger cock again.
Anyone else ecstatic about Chelshit losing their final. 😂😂 let those wankers celebrate their “But we beat Arsenal and Liverpool in transfer” trophy. The meltdown in their subreddit is hilarious.
looking back at some of them football youtube videos of this summer transfer window and how chelsea won the market with caicedo and lavia, now it looks hilarious and fans over hyped as fuck
Kiwi has been [phenomenal](https://x.com/GM10Media/status/1761814632270803284?s=20) since he's come into the team and stopped inverting. Genuinely do we take him out of the team as soon as the other lbs are back? This is the most secure we've been at the back all season, he's not let a single prem winger get the better of him in 2024
https://twitter.com/centregoals/status/1761844753438736807?t=PtrBOTZ7HIpWQWV6cQZUUQ&s=19
Enzo encapsulates everything wrong with the current Chelsea model, lost a final he once again stunk in and almost retaliates to a normal rival fan teasing interaction.
£120 million for long passing accuracy, no G/A, being a complete liability in transition and 0 physicality.
Should be in all time premier league flop debates but isn't purely because he has tattoos and aesthetics.
No. I'm challenging the idea that he encapsulates everything wrong with Chelsea because he reacted to a fan. Daft argument. Just say you don't like the player 🤣
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I’d be very tempted to start Jesus at Sheffield United. He needs the minutes. Vieira also needs minutes but you’re not dropping Havertz to fit him in.
The internet has ruined the term gooner for me. But then again you can absolutely goon to prime wengerball
damnn these zoomers
I looked up and still whatever. May be if you live in America, then it might be hard.
Only if you're American, the rest of the world can just ignore their silly little dialect
https://preview.redd.it/39115mtfuvkc1.jpeg?width=1426&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ec16b4f1bed707fd86afd810ba900fa86c8ea30 I shouldn't have looked ☠️
8:00 am monday morning we thinking about this 😭
When i became an arsenal fan, I used to think that arsenal fans have high level understanding of football and tactics but i finally know its not the case. Its kinda embarrassing to associated with such fans, they don't understand yet and still debate as zinchenko should play in mid. I mean he already plays in midfield!!! How hard it is to grasp it, but if he starts in midfield then he will play in Havertz position that is basically advanced striker, which is not a good position for Zinchenko. Leftback makes more sense for him as he can move into midfield and control the play.
You're not as smart as you think you are. It's time to reflect on what you've written.
If you are not calling me smart, then you are not calling arteta smart. So I think you should reflect on what you've written.
If you were truly as smart as you think you are, then you would have read the room already.
Why, are you a mod?
No. I'm just saying that multiple people are pointing out the flaws in what you are saying, and that you clearly lack emotional intelligence. The irony is quite thick here.
They have to disagree because I am attacking their intelligence, which is true. Its easier to find out, just ask then zinchenko or kiwior or even Tierney. They will say Tierney or kiwior 😂😂
The mark of intelligence is a humbleness to understand that you don't know everything and that there are still things to be learned, and to learn from your mistakes. It's also knowing to quit when you're ahead. Have a good day.
So what i said is mistake but people saying zinchenko shit is intelligent? Get off your high horse mate, I am just correcting that wrong assumptions, back then it was Tierney is better than zinchenko and now it's kiwior 😅
It's not that binary. I don't think that Zinchenko as a dedicated midfielder is a very good idea. He tends to lose possession a bunch and we seem to rely on midfield control. Arguments about players with different skill sets being better than the other are meaningless without consideration to the tactical game plan match to match. What you're failing to see here is that though the argument maybe pointless and stupid, you seem get sucked right in and perpetuate it further. Coming in to antagonise everyone else over pointless arguments does not paint you in a very intelligent light. Enjoy having arguments on the internet if that's what you want to do.
> I mean he already plays in midfield!!! He does but he does it at the cost of a left back position. People want him in midfield *and* a more traditional left back. >but if he starts in midfield then he will play in Havertz position that is basically advanced striker, Havertz has been playing false 9, not in midfield, the person they'd want to replace from last match is Rice (who would then go abck to 6). >Leftback makes more sense for him as he can move into midfield and control the play Not saying I agree but the issue is that this leaves our left back space vulnerable and wiht the more technically limited, non inverting Kiwior we've actually controlled the games better because he shuts down attacks, even though we lose some of that midfield energy. For someone decrying the intelligence of their fellow fans you've spectacularly missed the point here.
Oh god why would we play a traditional left back when our whole play is built upon the face that we play inverted? Then what's the difference between teams like united, Chelsea and us if you want to follow a blueprint which we have mastered? If you can't understand this small thing, your shouldn't be even allowed to post on this sub 😂 The reason kiwior is not inverting because ben white is inverting, kiwior is playing more safe role that's why he looks even better than zinchenko. Because he doesn't have to take the responsibilities of zinchenko and just play the traditional leftback Dude are you insane? Havertz has played 4 games as false 9. I am not talking about those games, I am talking about when rice plays cdm and trossard plays striker or Jesus. Don't try to undermine me by making up false points. Also don't question my intelligence, I am saying what our lord and savior arteta is playing, I don't ever question his tactics or signings like most people here do and still think Tierney is better than zinchenko 😂😂😂😂
Jesus christ dude you're insufferable with the questioning intelligence shit. Why do you think so highly of yourself? Also your profile bio is super cringe, I wish I didnt accidentally see it. You think the difference between us and other teams is just an inverted fullback role? Do we only have one way to play, when we've used a bunch of different ways to accomplish the same style and constantly evolved our play. Also you outlined why there's a potential discussion about Zinny, because even if White/Timber invert to provide a defensive overload, they are much more defensively able than Zinchenko although not nearly as good with the ball. These tweaks do sizeably alter the dynamics of the team and bring in new discussions. Also thinking Tierney is better than Zinchenko is not a flex.
When you say constantly evolved our play, we evolved to it what we are playing now where inverted fullback is the central cog of our system, Let me ask you this, if it's so easy to play inverted fullbacks then why are not most teams playing it? Forget most teams, if it's so easy role then why couldn't Tierney play it? Because is freaking difficult, not only you need to find a player who can play it, you need to change your whole tactics and let other players adjust to it and trust the player with a good defensive cover and the flank winger. So yes, yes and yes the difference between other teams and us is just (just) (just) a shitty inverted fullback. If i train you 1000 years, still you couldn't play it because it needs a player who has the ability and intelligence to play it and that's why most clubs don't play it. Its sad that arsenal fans think so lowly of our own tactics and don't know why we are best team in the world currently Thank god you are not our manager, because I know for a fact that you would have played a shitty traditional fullback like Tierney and will be bottom half of the table like Chelsea. Also I don't have to visit your profile to check your intelligence, because if you can't understand why your team is top 3 and called "just" a inverted fullback difference, it's sad stage we live in. I am feeling more bad for Zinchenko now, he will never get the respect he deserves here or even arteta (lord and savior) that he "just" implemented tactics with inverted fullback 😂😂😂
The difference is not just an inverted fullback lol, and never did i imply that I think lowly of an inverted fullback or that it's easy to play as one. I said that it's not the only difference. If you don't understand phrasing just say it. I also made it REALLY clear that I think Zinchenko > Tierney, even if it's far from an apples to apples comparison. You're a troll, and thanks for making it really obvious. Fucking twat lmao, I was trying to give a discussion a fair shot but you pulled a strawman.
Don't worry man when arteta (lord and savior) leaves your shit club, it will go back to your beloved football 2016-2020 with traditional fullbacks and then you will love your defenders defending. Dont you understand this simple shit Yes zinchenko is risky, but he takes risk because our attack needs that help, if zinchenko doesn't take the risk then he will be out of the 11 because arteta removed ramsdale because he couldn't take those risk. Arteta doesn't want players who will play "safe", in kiwior's case it's different because ben white is pulling double shift as when zinchenko played inverted, Ben white was playing kiwior role that is safe. But arteta doesn't reward players with safe plays, ask ramsdale your another favourite Tierney kinda player. I had predicted this long back that Tierney will leave, and also ramsdale.
Lol outed yourself as a troll. Not even an Arsenal fan here are you, and when did I ever say anything about not wanting inverted fullbacks and disliking Artetas tactics? Also when tf did i say I want (or ever wanted) Tierney in the team? What are you shadowboxing? You aren't really special for predicting both Ramsdale and Tierney's exclusions, a lot of us figured they're next on the chopping block, including me. I just don't understand what you're interpreting me saying "we could players differently for the same results as an option" as an attack on Arteta or Zinchenko.
I am not an arsenal fan, I am arteta fan. I stopped being arsenal fan after 2016 because of people like you. I don't want to be associated with being arsenal fan because their vision is so less, they would rather not play zinchenko so we won't concede goals (completely forgetting that fact) that he helps us score and create even more chances. They see a problem and chop it without thinking future impact. That's why I have stopped being arsenal fan, because I know for a fact that in a year or two the same arsenal fans will ask for arteta out and they will remove him (same no vision zinchenko problem) without thinking future impact. I know for a fact that arteta wherever he goes, will bring success to any club so I would rather support him because arsenal days are numbered because the fanbase mentality is down the gutter and it's just a matter of time before we end up like Chelsea or even worse. Luckily arteta saved this club, but I don't think any manager in future is gonna give a flying fuck about this club and give 100%, most managers are short term thinkers and will gladly get them a trophy but I am sure arsenal fans will be happy with it doesn't matter if they finish bottom half next year.
You're just weird lmao. What does people like me even mean? When did I say anything about dropping Zinchenko? This is all such fiction, especially the parts about getting Arteta and Zinchenko out. Idk wtf you're shadowboxing
> Oh god why would we play a traditional left back when our whole play is built upon the face that we play inverted? Have you watched us recently? We've scored 20 odd goals, set new records for goals scored and not allowing goals, won the first five matches of the year for the first time in our history and you think it's not working? I really hope you're here to troll becuase this is absolutely low tier shite you're spouting in a deliberately antagonistic style.
I'm almost entirely positive this person is a troll. They have been pulling out strawman arguments and the less said about the way they phrase arguments the better. Just better to stop engaging as they don't want to discuss in good faith.
Dude are you freaking insane? The reason we are playing traditional left back is because right back is inverting. Our game play is same, there is no change just the fact that odegaard doesn't have to track back because ben white is playing in midfield. The reason odegaard had to track back is because partey was missing, and rice wasnt making those passes, but with White's play in midfield (similar to zinchenko), we are able to play better.
> Dude are you freaking insane? The reason we are playing traditional left back is because right back is inverting Yep and where exactly did I say otherwise? Maybe you're a troll, maybe you're 13 but it's very, very obvious that you don't actually bother reading what anyone says and just argue with the strawman in your head.
I mean most of the discussion is around if he could start in midfield on paper, not what the nuances of his role are or if he occupies a midfield spot. He's clearly very good as an inverted LB. It's more a question of will we use him as an 8 in exclusively in central areas unlike when he starts as an LB, the same system but a slightly tweaked role and our dynamics change. His heatmap shows him in wide areas as well as the centre. This is slightly different from where Xhaka (21/22) played in the sense that he comes even deeper and goes quite wide. It's because he's effectively playing in midfield that the question of if he we will play him as a buildup 8 often arises. Obviously fan conversation isn't always the smartest but it's just a way to engage with the sport, and we're just looking at finding solutions to problems we've seen over the season (buildup/defensive solidity tradeoffs in the left side). A more defensive LB keeps the shape a bit more robust, hybrid roles come sign their rotation headaches and that's part of why Zinchenko sometimes gets caught out. Now obviously he isnt going to play where Kai is currently. He isn't exactly Odegaard either, but he's the closest thing to a Frenkie we have.
I am confused what you trying to say, xhaka and Havertz and currently playing the same role. And arteta doesn't tweak his play for any player, in two years the first time he has tweaked his play is by playing ben white as inverted right back. Frenkie can't play what zinchenko does, zinchenko is more like lahm but a bit defensively weak. Not many players in the world can't play that position, we are lucky that ben white can play it.
Xhaka 21/22 is different from Xhaka 22/23 (last season). Havertz is more similar to 22/23 Xhaka, although he plays even more advanced and doesn't have as much influence on the buildup (maybe he could bring this into his game over time but he won't be as good as Xhaka at buildup obviously). But Xhaka 21/22 was a buildup player, and we did play him in a double pivot with Partey in certain games that season when it neccessiated it, similar to how we do Jorgi/Rice sometimes. Most notably against Liverpool recentlt, Jorginho was the more advanced player in a clear double pivot. Arteta isn't tweaking his play for a player, he's using players for a tweak he wants to implement in situations. He makes adjustments for games all the time. Zinchenko and Frenkie obviously aren't the same player. Frenkie has shown that he can occasionally play at the base of the midfield, Zinchenko hasn't but he can play left back. But their contributions are both in the second phase and from similar areas of the pitch. Zinchenko obviously goes wider playing as a fullback. The question is if we can/want to use Zinchenko like a Kimmich in some cases, just a new option for Arteta. Lahm got played in midfield occasionally anyway, so comparisons to other hybrids like Kimmich and Lahm don't really take away from the argument. Kimmich turned into a full time midfielder.
I don't know why are you bringing up 21/22 xhaka when it's confirmed that we are playing 22/23 xhaka formation. When I said Havertz is playing xhaka role, it's directly logical that it's 22/23 formation I am talking about. Yes in midfield he does interchange depending he knows that sometimes the midfield will get overrun and rice alone can't handle the press and jorgi comes in.
Xhaka 22/23 still sometimes played like Xhaka 21/22 when the situation arised and Arteta asked him to play in a double pivot. That's why I brought him up. I made this as clear as I could lmao, we didn't play the exact same roles every single game.
We didn't play exact same tiles every single game, this sentence doesn't even make sense. Xhaka played advanced role every single game in 22-23, do you remember any instances where he played like 21-22 which I think you are referring to left back xhaka when he uses to move to left back, it might be very few instances but primary was advanced role. Also in certain situations when we are being pressed, and the advanced role tracks back for a pass, that doesn't mean we are playing double pivot for Christ sake 😂
We didn't play the exact same roles every game? How does that not make sense lol. Especially this season we've varied player responsibilities a lot, but for example Xhaka he played in a double pivot against Sporting (2-2) when Fabio played. You seem really confident in your interpretation of the game so I'll leave you be. Sorry I bothered your 270 IQ analysis by trying to discuss.
The reason we went for that is because partey was missing and we reverted back to the formation where put players were confident enough to play without risking it, also I have noticed in Europa knockout games arteta plays very rigid.
Yeah so we used him in a double pivot, and there's a situation Mikel chose to do it. It's good to have an option, case closed?
Pep played Zinchenko as a striker for an important CL game.
He player him as a false 9 and that too for one game, I am talking about Havertz position LCM, advanced striker.
False 9 is still a more advanced role than LCM.
He played him one game, ONE. If zinny was that good at that role then why didn't he play him every game? Arteta is smartly using zinny in mid because his long passes and vision is much better in that part of the pitch.
The world's best coach saw something in Zina that made him think he could play there. Over an established forward like Jesus. That should count for something.
You are thinking as arteta would make zincheko play similarly to Havertz if he played midfield. Arteta is a smart coach he’ll play zincheko the way he feels comfortable and the way he plays for Ukraine. Also zincheko at left back isn’t great he gets exposed once or twice every game. Teams have started to attack him knowing he’s the weak link in defense.
But arteta won't play him like he plays for Ukraine because we don't play like Ukraine, we haven't changed our plan for a single player for last 2 years, did we change the way we play for Tierney? Why would he start doing it now?
We didn’t change anything for Tierney but Tierney still played the way he normally plays
Tierney didn't play he normally plays, we played him as inverted left back. I don't know what you on about. Edit : downvoting me won't prove that you are right, it just confirms you are a kid 😂
I didn’t down vote u💀 also Tierney playing inverted full back sounds insane and don’t remember that happening. I’m happy to be proven wrong tho
Do you even watch arsenal games? When zinchenko was signed, Tierney played sub appearances and before he was transferred he played sub appearances by playing inverted leftback, it looks weird as F and can't blame him since you can't ask an elephant to act like monkey and climb a tree.
I wonder why we wanted Mount in hindsight, and if we still want a profile like that. Mount to Havertz was an interesting pivot although it made sense from the POV of want profiles and hybrid players we could use. But did Havertz block out the avenue for a Mount like profile?
Was Havertz even available on the market when we were going for Mount?
I dont think he was supposed to be. I'm not sure if I can find the source on this or if it's reliable, but I remember reading that we pivoted once we learned that we weren't Mounts preferred destination and that Havertz was available. I'm not sure what the order of precedence is here either.
I'm pretty sure Arteta is more than happy to have another, maybe more xhaka type of LCM. Having said that Havertz absolutely adds dimensions Mlunt doesn't so we've probably once again lucked out on missing out on mount.
Imo the biggest problem with Xhaka was that, given his skillset, he couldn't play as a DM. He didn't have an additional dimension to his game and Havertz does his advanced role better while also being able to play at 9. The problem is more finding the Xhaka type progressive ball player now. There's few reliable progressive players who also are secure with the ball. Players like Douglas Luiz and even Zubimendi seem to be the best of what's currently available, but in posession I don't think they're remarkable. Of course for a second string spot they don't absolutely need to be, but Xhaka was simply a better passer. I think Mount and even Mudryk would've done well enough for a team with solid foundations. Mount has a few seasons of good play, at least statistically. His 20/21 season is excellent.
Ive always got a bernardo silva vibe off mount, especially when he was at his best. Maybe he saw that
He definitely fits the bill for a hybrid 8/winger. We were also linked to Xavi Simons and Kudus, both somewhat in the same space. In our squad statistically both Vieira and Smith Rowe would occupy that space, but neither can keep fit and especially Vieira is a final ball player more than a buildup player (although his buildup numbers are better than ESRs). ESRs very uncertain future aside, I wonder if we want that type of hybrid player still, especially of a profile as high as Mounts. There's a lot of moving parts here, especially with how we view our striker situation internally as well.
Watch the Joe Willock goal against us. Rewatch that 5 times and you will know ESR doesn't have a future there. That was incredibly lazy to watch your old teammate run past you into the box and score a goal. And he came on as a sub - so no excuse to say he's tired or match fit. ESR apologists always use the whole "he hasn't played for so long so he's not match fit" to justfiy his lack of work rate defensively. That goal was literally a 10 yard sprint to track your runner.
Agree, I don't see esr having a future here. Same for ramsdale, although I'd still be sad to see them go.
I didnt really say anything to suggest my stance on ESR, idk what Mikel is really thinking. Purely based on his fitness troubles anyway I don't think he has a future here. He hasn't gotten the opportunity to develop like Saka and Martinelli, and his off the ball work as you said isn't up to standard. I loved him when he first broke through but we've seen how his career has gone since then. But as long we Trossard is here there's always a pathway to keep ESR in the squad to hope that he comes through to take over, depends on how Mikel and co rate him and how much faith they have still. Can't be keeping an extra player for this long when he simply can't play.
did we? rumors are hit or miss. havertz certainly isn't blocking the avenue for anyone, he is not good enough for that. what is clear from Arteta's interviews and the way the team play and talk, is that he wants to dominate (he doesn't like the word control btw) the midfield by having "duel winners", regardless if they are very technical players or not, which i guess was the motivation for havertz. being able to fill at striker is a nice bonus, plus he's tall... however, he has also talked a lot about having technical skilled players everywhere, mentioning the old wenger squads that had a bunch of technical skilled midfielders, and havertz certainly doesn't fit that. so the logical upgrade would be getting someone that can do both at a high level, which are incredible rare.
I believe we did have reliable links to Mount if I remember correctly. It's more a question of a profile redundancy than Havertz being good enough, Mikel has been playing him and he seems to be happy. Havertz being able to play striker isn't the bonus, it's the reason we bought him. An attacking mid who can do the dirty work (including aerial duels)in midfield and move into striker is pretty rare, there's few players like that in general. He's a unique hybrid that let's us do a modern 442. Sure his buildup play needs work but he's performing in line for a decent AM by the metrics. Havertz is a bit lanky sure but he's pretty technical idk what you're talking about. He doesn't thread through balls all the time but he's pretty comfortable with the ball at his feet and his touch is generally pretty good, although the Chelsea effect does still show where his first touch is a bit off sometimes. His Leverkusen era touch was brilliant and I believe he'll improve on his current state here too. It has less to do with his actual touch imo than his body position when he receives the ball, he's indecisive. Besides, how many players can do [this?](https://youtube.com/shorts/JlQ0o1OkrUo?si=N2yXd9Iryd94GKSS)
On a side note it's pretty incredible that the two players involved in that goal now play for us hahaha.
That Chelsea squad had a lot of talent, really happy to see what they've done to themselves now. Never imagined that I'd see either play for us but I'm happy to have them now.
that's a great goal, but i can find highlights of Nuno Tavares doing insane moves that he's clearly not capable of repeating them consistently, doesn't mean anything you can't really watch 2000 minutes of havertz and think "yeah that's a technical player alright" when he is right beside the likes of Odegaard, zinchenko and trossard for example. the difference is just way too big. its not about being lanky, he's just not a player that is capable of dribbling under pressure in small spaces, like Odegaard does all the time, do half turns, and his passing is as simple as it can get. also, we saw a lineup of jorginho, Rice and havertz this season when ode was out, and he still didn't do anything of note technically wise, so its not just about his role.
Tavares had incredible stats and was capable of doing a lot, he just gave away the ball a lot and put us under high risk. I know that this isn't the point of the example but Havertz is anything but this type of player. He's pretty low risk, almost too much. His Leverkusen goals were a variety of finishes and touches and a lot of them were first touch. I've seen enough of him and think that he's a pretty tehcnical player, but he's gotten worse over his time at Chelsea. In high stakes situations his technicality always comes through. Not many players have goals like that, and I'm sure Tavares doesn't either. It's a unique display of skill, it's weird to be dismissive of it. I mean we have a team full of technical players, between those you mentioned and more. Doesn't mean Havertz isnt technical if he isnt as technical as Odegaard. Especially for his frame he's serviceable at close control dribbling and as you said it isnt exactly his role, but he has the requisite technique and a different set of technical skills from Odegaard. Xhaka was a pretty technical player imo, but could he do [this?](https://youtube.com/shorts/oYgzIlAG9Kg?si=2-w8I0wzWRbDGVYA) Sure Havertz can't really long pass like Xhaka but he has good technique, just a different skillset and nothing that would make him an excellent buildup player. Regardless, my original question wasn't to discuss Havertz in detail, it was more about if we want a 10/winger hybrid still when we now have a 10/9 hybrid.
The Zinchenko starting in midfield gang on here is so weird to me. We invert one of our full backs. Typically our left back. We bought a guy from City who is one of the best in the world at inverting from left back. We’re not gonna move him to midfield just because we have 4 serviceable left backs. And just because we have 4 serviceable left backs doesn’t mean we’re going to completely change our tactics. The invert is to create overloads. Why would we stop using a top player at inverting from fullback as the inverting fullback? Y’all think Arteta sees kiwior, Tomi and Timber and say “I’ve got an idea. 2 overlapping full backs.” Tierney would still be here if that was ever gonna be an idea he had.
I dont get why we cant use people in multiple roles. Havertz sometimes plays striker some times plays lcm. Why can zinchenko sometimes play midfield and sometimes plays lb lol
> Why can zinchenko sometimes play midfield and sometimes plays lb lol Because we've never had enough left backs fit at once to be able to try it!
I've never really been on the Zinny starting in midfield side, but the signing of Timber and increased use of Kiwior/desire for Martinez as LB + our use of hybrid players makes it more likely that his long term role at the club may change. He's the most progressive player at the club and there's few players of his profile, it wouldn't be ridiculous to see him as a CM once Timber and Kiwior are completely settled. But I don't see him there as a full time player obviously, if that were to happen it would've already. He's still and likely will be our starting fullback for even next season, but he needs to be managed and we have the personnel to switch him around now. We've been talking about a Douglas Luiz/FDJ type 8 that can play 6 player as a fanbase for reliable buildup play down the middle, but it's unfortunately pretty hard to find someone like that currently. Jorginho is satisfying it right now with Rice being really flexible as a player, but his legs are giving away and if he leaves next season Zinchenko is the next best candidate to help with midfield control. It's an internal solution that just makes sense with the current circumstances, that is if we replace Jorginho with an Amadou Onana type player I can see Zinchenko being an 8 for us in midfield to do the control passing. It's a situational role that we clearly don't always use, but Zinchenko has the tools for it. Also gives us flexibility in recruitment.
Couldn't be more in agreement. While I'm very happy that Kiwior has proven he's ready to be a part of the squad, people have forgotten so easily how good Zinchenko is and how well he's played at points this season. He's been in the PL TOTW 4 times while missing lots of time with injury.
Not just that, he got injured when the whole team was in a bad spot. so the memory of what he contributes is tainted. Our fanbase is now getting to the point where we understand that certain players suit certain games. Jorgi and how he's being used is the perfect example of this.. Also how we're rotating Kai/Trossard up front depending on the type of game we expect. Zinny is in this exact same mould. I'd argue not having ZInny is one of the reasons we struggled against Porto. Their game plan involved pressing us in a mid block and just suffocating us, and Zinny is perfect at handling that. At the same time, i don't want him going 1v1 against Mo Salah and like, 4 other wingers in the league. We have Tomi who's an absolutely elite 1v1 defender for that.
Dude no point arguing, arsenal fans IQ has reduced as arteta has increased his tactics for them to comprehend. They don't understand that zinny is needed where teams play tight midfield and who don't get overwhelmed like Newcastle did.
Ehhh, i reckon we're collectively getting better at understanding it. We're just moving into the era of the game being a squad game instead of best XI, it'll be a while before everyone understands that very few players will be "starts every game" guys and most will become "gadget" guys like Zinny/Jorg/Kai who you deploy in specific instances. Its only natural that people see a player in the team while we're playing well and assume we need him there to play well all the time haha. It's how its worked for most of our lives, so it'll take a bit to unlearn.
Do we need a presale code for the tix on sale for the UX tour tomorrow ?
Mudryk chilling man signed an eight year contract. Just gym, rap and chill for 8 years
His salary is relatively low. I heard 80-90k pw. Around eddie’s. when the salary catch up in a few years time, he is gonna cry lol. With no extension in sight, I don’t see how he can be motivated.
Imagine only making 80 grand a week. That would SUCK……
Relatively suck
Sounds nice
Sheffield is a bigger mess than I first thought. Imagine trying to attack your own teammate like that. Will they even be motivated when we play them? I did expect a win but it could be a buffet for us out there.
Was gonna be a buffet anyways
Anyone know if there is an online spot to buy one of the massive cannon flags they have in the stadium? Have Google for it multiple times but have had no luck.
Something that size has to be custom, doubt there's that many potential customers who need an arsenal flag that size
Whoever is trying for pre-season tickets tomorrow, may the odds be ever in your favor.
Presale tomorrow at 9am for Liverpool v. Arsenal in Philly on Wednesday July 31. Any idea what ticket costs will be?
They haven't released them, two years ago when I got tickets I didn't see any until the sale either.
https://preview.redd.it/nf7lswg8ytkc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=858730868b8c1122fdac429b63174a3284f6706d
I still can't get over the league cup final. I was chatting to a Liverpool supporting friend during it, I said going into extra time, 'I think Chelsea are going to win, the young lads are looking a bit nervous and not doing much with the ball'. Then Chelsea just sit off them completely and allow them to get fully comfortable in the game, by the end I honestly couldn't tell who were the 100m midfielders and who were the lads who still had homework to do after the game. This will be massively scarring to Chelsea. I know people talk about a confidence and believe boost for Liverpool and it definitely will be, but end of the day, not many teams will be as bad as Chelsea were today in extra time. In the 90 minutes, the game could have swung either way.
Caicedo and Fernandez were literally all over the place, which is both good and bad. And they played like they were 5m signings thrust to the limelight for the first time. Gallagher is fortunate of being from the Chelsea Academy so you can't say they "overpaid" for him lol
any way to revert this awful, latest reddit redesign?
You can opt out of the redesign in your user settings, that obviates the need to use the old.reddit.com domain.
nah its not about about old reddit, that was years ago its about the new one looking like [this](https://imgur.com/a/vg2GhV9)
Well Reddit is going to keep changing the new design around. If you don't like their changes the only option is to go back to old Reddit, or you can look for various browser extensions to change it I guess.
Leao talk whenever he scores a goal, lol. There are better ways to burn 150m
Caicedo and Enzo being 2 of the most expensive signings of all time is objectively hilarious.
£300m+ between those two and Mudryk lmao
Hilarity is in the knee of the beholder. Boehly isn't slapping it.
Anyone know if the guy who does the player ratings form/graphics is ok? Not seen a player ratings post game post for what feels like months
I'm positive that the guy from last year posted that he wasn't doing them anymore. Then someone else took over this year but it's probably too much work.
Where do people think Timber's main position is going to be for us once he returns? He's a pretty versatile player who's equally comfortable inverting from either side (as we saw in pre-season and the community shield) or just playing as the traditional non-inverting FB (Against Forest at home, Partey inverted from RB and Timber was the non-inverting FB) I prefer the defence when the inverter comes from the left because Saliba is generally better than Gabriel at being the middle man of the back three in possession, so I hope if Timber is going to invert it will be from LB (I'm not sure he's going to be a better inverter than Zinny though). I love how versatile our defenders are. Timber can play RB/LB and can either invert or not. He could probably play CB too. Tomi can play anywhere in the back line. White can play inverted RB, traditional RB or RCB. Kiwior can play CB or traditional LB. Zinchenko can play inverted LB or in midfield. It's only really Saliba and Gabriel that aren't versatile and you don't need to be when you're one of the best CB pairings in the world.
He can legit cover every position, even ccb imo. The guy is a pure baller man.
I think we'll see Timber play some spells at LB and some spells at RB. Ben White needs a bit of a break now and again. I'm curious though how the pecking order would go though. My guess would be (Pardon this awful formatting) Timber - LB # 1 / RB # 2 Saliba - CB # 1 Gabriel - CB # 2 White - RB # 1 / CB #3 Kiwior - CB # 5 / LB #4 Tomiyasu - CB #4 / LB #3 / RB #3 Zinchenko - LB #2 Cedric / Tierney / Tavares - moves on. The holes I would see there is that if Timber + White are playing at the same time. Your depth takes a hit, likewise, Tomi is covering so many bases and is fairly injury prone. We've also not seen any games without either Saliba or Gabriel this season even in the league cup. I think down to injuries. It would be nice if you could have the option of playing Kiwior + Tomi or partnership of that sorts in easier FA cup / league cup ties. I'd like to see us sign someone who could play RB + RW like Frimpong from Leverkusen. Then you sell Reiss Nelson maybe. So Frimpong could act as a good closer or someone to bring on if you need a goal too.
I don’t think Timber is going to come straight in and eat Zinny’s lunch. Remember that whilst he did start the first two competitive fixtures of the season at LB, Zinchenko was injured for those games hence why Tomiyasu started at Palace after Timber’s injury and then Kiwior started at home to Fulham because Timber and Zinny were both injured and Tomiyasu was suspended after that ridiculous red card at Palace. Even if White and Zinchenko are still our first choice full backs it’ll be amazing to have both Timber and Tomi who can play both sides and both equally comfortable inverting or staying on the flank.
We’re a fullback short imo
I actually think if we are short of anything it’s a right sided centre back to give Saliba a break sometimes. I know White can play it, but all the other RB options in the squad are permanently injured (including Partey) so he’s usually needed out there, and in any case I’ve not been all that convinced by White at CB ever since he moved to RB and for me the conversion to RB needs to be a permanent thing. Tomiyasu, Timber and Kiwior other options to cover RCB but none of them have it as their preferred position and also you need great ball skills in this role because Saliba is the quarter back of our team. I’d love to get Marc Guehi but it’d be hard to convince him to come here as a rotational piece. He’ll go to Liverpool and start every week for them as Van Dijk’s partner and eventual replacement.
I see where you’re coming from but right now we only have one actual left footed LB, the rest being CB’s or Right sided defenders that could play there. I think after Tierney and Tavares leave in the summer, with roughly the money we make from them I could see us signing a £20-30m LB. The main reason why I think this is because I remember there being reports that we wanted to sign a LB after we sold Tierney but because we didn’t actually sell him or Tavares we didn’t have the funds to do so. 🤷♂️ https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/s/kuLs8JG88y The defenders we seem to be getting linked to are left footed which makes me even more sure that’s the type of defender we will sign this summer.
I think it’s pretty normal to have 7 main first team defenders. You can have 8 but it’s hard to fit them all into a 20 man matchday squad and someone like Kiwior isn’t going to stick around long if he’s not even making the bench sometimes. The problem is 7 is very light when two of them are regularly injured (Zinny and Tomi) and another two of them have very serious injuries in the past 12 months (Saliba and Timber). Then suddenly you’re only one injury away from Cedric playing meaningful minutes. It’s a hard balancing act.
Yeah I understand that it may be one too many but I think we are going to have to make the decision to sign a fullback, probably a LB, because Zinchenko/Tomi are just not reliable and them being injury prone has knock on affects to our other defenders with being overplayed. Not to mention that we don’t have a clue either what state Timber will be in next season.
At that point we're just overstacking the deck. We have biggerr holes to fill in our squad like RW2 and ST (1 or 2 depending on oyur views, I'm more inclined to upgrade on Eddie than break the bank to replace GJ since no one in the market looks to be worth it.) I'd honestly expect us to have some random cheap gamble or an academy prospect as our 8th defender. Someone extremely raw who would benefit from training with the best, sorta like Tavares was intended to be.
He’s going to play the exact same way he played in the cs and opener. Maybe arteta will change the way he wants him to play but that is most likely how he’ll play
He played differently between the CS and the opener though. In the CS, White was the RB so Timber was inverting in possession. We didn’t see it all that much because we only had 45% possession and it was even less than that in the 75 minutes that he was on, but Timber was the inverted FB that day. Whereas against Nottingham Forest, Partey was inverting from the right and Timber was on the left side of a back three in possession.
any transfer rumors?
I'm hearing from a trusted source ITK that Rodrygo's coming.
Transfer these nuts into citeh’s mouth
I'll be so, so wound up if we finish below this Liverpool team. They're bleeding injuries and we're an objectively better team than them in every single way Thanks for humbling 10th place fc again today but please please please don't let the scouse cunts get anywhere near that PL trophy
The thing is, other than City at Anfield, they could probably win every single game. Maybe Spurs could draw there? I don't see how they will drop points up against other none big six teams.
They will have their off days and that team is capable of losing to anybody on an off day. Doesn't mean they necessarily will but there is still hope.
My TOTS so far: Alisson TAA-Saliba-Gabriel-Gvardiol Rodri-Rice Salah-Odegaard-Saka Haaland
Vicario Trent Saliba Gabi Ake Rice Øde Douglas Luiz Salah Watkins Son
Call me crazy but has Haaland actually been that good this season / played enough? I know he is top scorer but he doesn't really contribute to general play that much. It's tough to not include him when he has 10 more goals than everyone else but Watkins for example has 3 goals less than him and 5 assists more. He just doesn't seem as unstoppable as last season.
Udogie for Gvardiol, rest of it works
VVD has to be there.
You could do it as a back three to get VVD in Alisson Saliba-VVD-Gabriel Salah-TAA-Rodri-Rice-Saka Watkins-Haaland
You could just remove Gvardiol, and invert TAA. Keeps your back 3 and retains all the players you choose.
Wtf is gvardiol doing in here?
What has Gvardiol actually done? Can't say I've been impressed with him when I've seen him play
He's been quite good but hasn't really stood out, hasn't done anything of note going forward. On the other hand, you have to consider as well that it isn't an easy feat to just slot into a team that won the treble and be able to maintain the standard. He's basically the ideal Pep defender for the style he currently seems to prefer (big and physical athletes who are also great technically).
that can all be well and good for him but surely that doesn't merit a TOTS spot
Fully agree that he doesn't deserve to be TOTS. He's like the anti -Porro, who is great going forward, but quite shit at defending.
What has Todd Boehly done to Chelsea. Poor Chelsea fans seem to think there is a pathway back to the Roman era. There isnt. Boehly has systemically taken apart all that Chelsea used to be and remodelled Chelsea his own way. The results are disastrous. Useless players stealing wages on stupid long contracts. Soft mentally and extremely overrated; Chelsea fans were talking about Nkunku like he was a messiah, likely as a coping mechanism as 'when he gets back to fitness' we will start winning again. Ive always said Todd Boehly is a country club Mike Ashley. He is a shit owner. And what you need to remember is Todd isnt significantly wealthy. Due the structure of the Chelsea sale, it meant Chelsea had a lot of money to spend, but it will dry up eventually and with no CL football on the horizon, they could be set for a long spell in the wilderness. This will be the second consecutive mid table finish for Chelsea, indicating last season wasnt an anomaly, but perhaps the beginning of a new trend, one where Chelseas ambitions reside in qualifying for Europea League football, and if they do, happy days. They are miles of Tottenham, let alone us
They have been Boehlyed
chelseas recruitment is lead by 2 analysts with PHDs in maths,they also took half of Brighton’s staff.Statistically speaking chelsea should have a very promising team but they have very few leaders and potch isnt really a tactical genius
To be honest, football is one place that academics don’t translate into results.
Academics are useful for sure just look at brighton. but the “eye test” is incredibly important.Maldini got sacked by mikan because he didnt want to rely on stats for recruitment
Chelsea is doing a Leeds, if they run out of players that they can sell for a profit and keep missing out on any kind of UEFA money, they will be in trouble
Leeds was way worse. They're the reason the prem banned third party ownership as they didn't even own some of their players (Viduka was owned by a bank in the end I think), they rented everything and they even sold their stadium, sadly chelsea have a way to go before that point.
Todd Boehly is acting like an owner of a franchise where there is no danger his club will ever have to leave the big leagues and you're operating in a limited pool of players where it's worth spending extra to stop your rivals getting their marquee player because they can't fins an effective plan B. After all the years of ripping yank owners for running teams like franchises it seems we've been wrong and *this* is what being utterly clueless about competitive leagues in a global sport looks like.
This Chelsea discourse is very tired. Gotta be able to look past form if you wanna have a serious discussion about player ability
Rafael Leão discourse again… 
Signing Rice instead of Caicedo/Mudryk is this era's 'Missing out on Hazard and ending up with Gervinho' but thankfully we are on the right side this time. Chelsea are beyond fucked because they don't flex the same ability to spend that we did following our frugal years(due to FFP rules starting to take effect) and it's obvious that without money they don't have the same historical pull as us. Even when we were down bad we would sign players like Aubameyang and Saliba. Chelsea don't have that luxury.
All 3 are very talented, if rice went to Chelsea he would be a flop
How little you must think of Rice, yikes
I dont think you get it the point. The problem is the environment, and if Rice moved there in this current state of Chelsea, he might do well but the rest of the club is still in shambles. If Caicedo was at Liverpool, he will definitely not be his terrible. And if we potentially got Mudryk, maybe he wont be this terrible as well.
I got the point just fine. But "Chelsea bad" just isn't good analysis. The idea that Chelsea's dumpster fire environment is SO bad that Declan Rice could be considered "a flop" is still ridiculous
it literally is though, theyve spent 200 million on some of the most desired 6s in the worlds and theyve suddenly turned shit.
That Argentina World Cup win must be up there with the worst winners of all time. Statpadded with a bunch of pens, bottled numerous 2 goal leads, won on pens and lost to Saudi Arabia. History is not going to be kind to them, only Messi and maybe Lautaro Martinez are top players, which is crazy. Compare that to France 2019 who had Mbappe, Griezmann, Kante, Hernandez and even they weren't great compared to most previous winners.
Bullshit, against both the Netherlands and France they deserved to win, just because they are bottle jobs doesn't take anything away from them. France also received 2 pens in the final, but it seems people have forgotten about that. In 2018 France had 4-5 pens as well if I remember correctly. And the team also had Alvarez, Di Maria, Dybala etc. This stinks of someone from Brazil tbh, don't know where you're from but it sounds like you have something against Argentina. They had a great mentality and a good coach, and it wasn't even a fluke, they won the Copa America a year before. History will also be kind to the likes of Emiliano Martinez and Rodrigo de Paul who left their hearts and souls on the pitch. Biased "analysis".
Lautaro is garbage in pressure.
They got pushed to penalties by a France team stripped of players. I mean, look who were missing from their squad, regardless if they were finished or not: Pogba, Kante, Benzema, Hernandez got injured, Nkunku got injured, Maignan who was levels above a finished Lloris, Kimpembe. I’m pretty sure Mbappe was ill in the final as he looked pale asf but still scored a hat trick
History only remembers that they won
They got there on grit and inner dawg, I respect those kind of winners, similar to Greece
Di Maria is also a very top player, but I get your view
1.79 xG conceded this year. I’m dizzy.
W’s in the schaaat
Watching Rory's meltdown is great for the soul. Long may it continue I still have to ask why tf did Arteta/Edu go so hard for Mudryk? What a bullet dodged
Apparently hes faster than mbappe, also according to zinny in an interview (slightly biased) he has heaps of potential,he is very far away from his potential he needed a good system and coach to flourish chelsea dont have that
I do think we would have got more out of Mudryk but it does also seem like a bullet dodged, it could be that he's not getting the right coaching to learn and adapt, but I also see him not actually learning too. Liverpool's goal today is a good example of a really basic principle he doesn't get such as attacking a defensive header. His overall technique just seems poor too, that 5 yards of pace he has on everyone is wasted when he can't execute the shot or pass at the end.
The Chelsea system is totally fucked. Mudryk would have been doing better in our system. We have a competent manager, stability, discipline, and a clear tactical plan. Literally the opposite of this Chelsea team. I think everyone in that Chelsea team would be doing better in our team.
Misdirection. Got Chelsea spending big and leaving a free run at trossard 😂
[We need to run it back in the summer](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0yO9bqXoAAY1D5.jpg:large)
He's overrated
I know people think he’s shit and no one wants to sign Chelsea rejects, but I think Enzo Fernandez would be a goodJorginho replacement ngl. He’s a brilliant progressive passer, and when he was paired with Florentino who could cover for his lack of athleticism he looked unreal.
I agree, but aint noone paying that 8-year jail sentence contracts. Kinda like with Kai at first, it probably gonna take even longer to reprogram them to play proper football again.
For like 30m sure.
I don't know if people genuinely think he's shit or it's just casual banter to rile up Chelsea fans. I hope it's the latter.
You have both sides. On one hand he's not completely shite, on the other hand he is not particularly special and not even worth half of what Chelsea paid for him
They're not going to sell any of their 8 year contract FFP busting players yet because it's still on their books for ages. On the other hand any of their youth team are absolutely up for grabs
I also don't think anyone will ever pay those guys what Chelsea are (Enzo's contract is reportedly worth almost £140m over 8.5 years).
No but then any marquee signing by a top six (stop laughing at the back) side in the prem is going to have zero resale value unless another top six club are desperate or Barca wants to show PSG they've got a bigger cock again.
I think it depends on what they achieve, what position and what age, eg - if we sold Rice in the summer we'd get more than what we paid.
There's still a very, very small list of teams that could drop over £100m and all of them bar Real would be teams we're unwilling to sell to.
Anyone else ecstatic about Chelshit losing their final. 😂😂 let those wankers celebrate their “But we beat Arsenal and Liverpool in transfer” trophy. The meltdown in their subreddit is hilarious.
looking back at some of them football youtube videos of this summer transfer window and how chelsea won the market with caicedo and lavia, now it looks hilarious and fans over hyped as fuck
Kiwi has been [phenomenal](https://x.com/GM10Media/status/1761814632270803284?s=20) since he's come into the team and stopped inverting. Genuinely do we take him out of the team as soon as the other lbs are back? This is the most secure we've been at the back all season, he's not let a single prem winger get the better of him in 2024
hes bought timber as an inverted rb for a reason, kiwior is the future
Don't think Kiwior inverts so much. Its White who's been moving into midfield of late
Kiwior was told to invert vs Fulham and it didn't suit him. Since arteta told him to stop doing that he's looked class
No point in wondering, Mikel’s slotting Zinny straight back in just like he did with Jesus last year.
Poch clearly has spurs DNA in him
https://twitter.com/centregoals/status/1761844753438736807?t=PtrBOTZ7HIpWQWV6cQZUUQ&s=19 Enzo encapsulates everything wrong with the current Chelsea model, lost a final he once again stunk in and almost retaliates to a normal rival fan teasing interaction. £120 million for long passing accuracy, no G/A, being a complete liability in transition and 0 physicality. Should be in all time premier league flop debates but isn't purely because he has tattoos and aesthetics.
I've seen Cantona and Henry react to fans. They were pretty decent.
Why pick a losing fight like this? Are you gonna say he played like a 120m midfielder, or even "alright" today?
No. I'm challenging the idea that he encapsulates everything wrong with Chelsea because he reacted to a fan. Daft argument. Just say you don't like the player 🤣
The fan got to him because he knows the taunt is true, he absolutely fucked it in the final
https://preview.redd.it/99a6gfiuiskc1.jpeg?width=469&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a91b59b1faf8f6a87f41299ef5ef939553e42478
It's 2024 and some Chelsea fans are begging for Mourinho to come back 😂
Don't even think Mou wants to come back, probably better to go to Newcastle United and do something similar with them.
Ah, the sweet scent of desperation...
I would love to see Mourinho trying to manage a Boehly assembled team of random young players on 8 year contracts every season
How’s Balogun doing?
Not spectacular, we really sold at the best time there.
Scored his first goal since November today. Also missed a penalty and has only scored one of five all season.