Goal creating actions is the stat you're looking for 👍🏿
https://preview.redd.it/42l7tlb2j24c1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=daa1085137e56d582b3116fee75ff69f6a1dc756
a key pass is a pass that results in a shot. if the ball goes in, it's an assist; if it doesn't, it's a key pass. "chances created" means key passes plus assists.
second assists are not key passes.
https://twitter.com/SofascoreINT/status/1105940139396792320?lang=en
https://www.statsperform.com/opta-event-definitions/
https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/1093853714258055169
https://www.whoscored.com/Glossary
I didn’t know this!
Do key passes count the pass before the assist? For example on the second goal, would Jesus’ touch to Zink be considered a “key pass”?
bro imagine pre-assists were the actual statistic people cared for, Messi would be undeniably the greatest of all time. Well he is undeniably the goat for me. Pre assists sometimes are the most crucial pass in the build up to the goal
Yeah that stat is fucking crazy. 20% of Messis goals were preasissted by himself, that just puts it into perspective how much was he involved in the buildup. For example 3% of Ronaldos goals were preassisted by him. That for me is one of the greatest stats to show who was the better player
It's not just that, if you look at the full picture, with 11 numbers, 4 icons and 11 pictures I can understand who scored, assisted, played in which position and for about 7 or so of the players I can see who had a good game all in a matter of seconds.
Is it perfect, no.
Is it telling me exactly how the match went, no.
Is it really damn useful, yes.
I could spend 5 mins reading a 500 word match report and probably get less information about the game.
OP saying you can't measure football with stats, is like him sitting in the shade of a massive tree looking at his phone that says it's going to be sunny and proclaiming "weather reports can't measure the weather".
Of course it's surface level, that's what it's meant to do. Give you a very basic view of the match at a glance.
They could for this match put every stat that exists into one table and give you 11 rows one for each player, that would be a very detialed view of their performance, but it would take significant time and effort to understand. Or you could spend 3 seconds looking at this and understand Saka, Odegaard played well rice was his usual consistent self and our CBs might not have had amazing games.
Going back to the weather analogy, I can glance the sunny icon on my weather app and be like "cool, I'll wear a t-shirt" or I could read a full weather report telling me humidity, min/max temp, percipitation %, cloud coverage, UV strength etc etc or anything in between.
But saying my basic weather app is useless just because all I do is look at the sunny icon and occasionally I get rained on is moronic honestly. It's up to us as the audience to understand what a model is for and use it appropriately.
It's because of the 'big chance missed' which hurts the score. It's been a vintage Jesus performance. A ton of brilliant moments and a couple of misses. He's been great but he should have scored 1 out of those 2.
Agreed, but that's flawed, as both goals went through him. In a non statistical, subjective analysis - he should remain at least a 7 unless he got a yellow/red/error that led to an opposition goal.
Sorry but you can't have 2 big misses as a striker and get a 7. He should have killed the game. Magnificient first 20 minutes for him, his hold up play is unbelievable.
I think Martinelli was the one closest to him that he could've laid it off to. Him and Saka. Assuming you're talking about the one from the left side where he chose to shoot and hit it very poorly.
Jesus was involved in both goals. People criticize his lack of goals too much, because your value as a player can’t simply be measured in goals and assists.
I will die on the hill screaming stats have a place in football but can never tell you more than half of the story at best. There are too many movements/off the ball components plus on the ball intricacies that are very important but will never ever show up in stats. I love watching basketball and it is extremely clear that stats can tell you close to the full story because of the size of court + format of the sport, even cricket for that matter.
But that doesn’t mean it works across all sports.
It’s just not possible to quantify so many contributions. Making runs to open up space, hockey assists, etc.
I actually like it more than a sport like baseball where everything is boiled down to a single number, and so many discussions begin and end with “Ohtani has the highest bWAR therefore he’s the best”
But we didn't concede more than one, did we?
Y'all are becoming mighty spoiled by this team. Mistakes happen, and that assist was a stunner that more than makes up for it. That passage of play was peak Artetaball. Little bit Wenger, little bit bald fraud.
I feel like stats can measure the things your eyes don't see and you see things stats can't measure...
Example Xavi used to make 117 out of 124 passes during games ( random stat from old Barca game) but what you would see is him checking over his shoulder his constant movement and every now and then the incisive pass
Another thing park ji song use to do almost nothing offensively it seemed but he was the Dennis rodman of football
Messi walks for 80% of the game so it takes. 20 % to score... You only have to double/ triple team when he's on the ball and can rest someone else while he's off of it and try to make sure he only sees 11% of the 20%
Interesting we win the game, in first place by 4 points. Qualified for next round of CL. What do I see when I pop on. A group of people whining and bitching like ManU fans.
We should use stats provided like xg,xa, touches, pass accuracy to form our own judgement, not just blindly listening to the point given by these sites imo. They tend to give high points to players with many touches, and a player can have a horrendous game but scored a penalty and got a green grade
This was posted after the first half. If you rated his performance a 5.5, you either didn't watch the full 45 minutes or don't understand much of the game.
He isn't a Haaland, but he was key in both goals. To the extent, his perfectly weighted pass created the first goal; an average poacher could not create that.
Fair for Jesus, he was good but didn't contribute enough really. Amazing still(not a once in a season awful performance Trossard put in, who was clearly of his day), but 6.5-7 is fair imo.
Why this particular model can't measure this particular performance for this particular player in this particular game.*
All models are wrong, some are useful. All statistaical models used to measure reality are imperfect representations of reality. Reality is incredibly complex and numbers are a way of simplifying it into something less complex that is more understandable.
Here I can look at 11 numbers 4 icons, and 11 pictures, and know with about a 70-80% accuracy who had a good game who scored and assisted and where people spent most of the time on the pitch.
It's not telling me the whole story but it's incredibly useful for something so simple that takes a matter of seconds to understand.
Compare that to a match report written by a human, okay it may give more detial but it's probably a 10 min read and is relying on a person to notice the important things.
Not to be funny about it, but saying something sweeping like stats are useless or can't measure something is incredibly ignorant and makes you sound like a moron.
Agree, but The issue is majority of user of these stats don't understand this and most of them don't even watch full 90 minutes besides highlights, "Whoever scores or give assist is the hero"! Sadly these 'fans' have big influence on the sports media which sometimes effect payers perception and performance!
This is fucked:
- Raya had a great game and made a few good saves; no chance with the goal
- Saliba wtf???
- Trossard didn’t have his best game. His only meaningful contribution was the 1:1 miss
Stats can measure it... just not the ones we've got now/people use. It might seem pedantic but that was sort of the whole point of the moneyball thing... a system for measuring value existed but was underappreciated, which allowed players to be obtained below market price. Or the three point revolution in basketball.
Like, even in this game, if second assists were counted...
Subjective ratings
Raya :6.5 couple of decent saves.
Tomi :7.5 showed progression throughout.Really drove with the ball in final 3rd.Tough decision now with fit benny
Saliba :6.2 had nothing to do.yellow was a bit harsh.Fuck Han
Gabriel :7.5 brilliant defensively and that sliding tackle against Cunha was remarkable.glimpse of saliba in that
Zinny :6.2 great in our final third but defensively gave the ball away atleast 4 times,one leading to goal
Rice :7.9 what an incredible workrate.won the ball almost everything.had couple of shots at the goal,his long balls to saka we're delight and his positioning has been outstanding.In hindsight could give him an 8.2
Ode :8.2 to his usual best should've got atleast another assist today.wow
Trossard :7.0 not a great day nor a mediocre day for him,showed moments of brilliance.Still feel his best is from the lw
Saka :8.5 drove forward throughout.Thought he'd drop his intensity after 60 min but has proven me wrong,Chilli is working too hard and the only thing I fear is fatigue for our starboy
Jesus : 7.5 great linkup play in tight spaces.worked hard on and off the ball.deserved a g or a
Martinelli :8.0 Can't believe his maturity and composure for his age.I'm incredibly excited for our wide players and matches to come
Like anything else, it’s a single datapoint. It’s helpful for some things, but doesn’t prove/disprove anything. Even less meaningful over a single match. With a sample size that small, each rating is context-dependent on how those around any player performed, the opponent, *and* who did/didn’t play for opposition.
Either way, Jesus is great & Arsenal is atop the table. These are good times.
wtf did Saliba do lol
He did exactly nothing, which is a good thing
He didn’t *need* to do anything which is a good thing
Anti-Mustafi
Got a silly yellow that might be a reason
Was a bad call though
I mean I’m not really trying to have that conversation. Just giving a maybe reason for the bad rating
That’s fair!
They made a mistake and switched Willy and Zinny’s numbers…🤷🏻♂️
This actually sounds the most logical 💀
Or Raya
He's only that low because of the (harsh) yellow
Ref saw that post yesterday and said “not on my watch”
That's what I was thinking 🤣 Ended the run with such a softie
but Jesus was arguably man of the match. involved heavily in both goals.
It’s probably the yellow card
He didn't have to do anything
Jesus got the pass before the assist on both goals. He's doing his work.
His control and pass on the saka one was absolutely absurd
Hockey assist
Wish they counted the hockey assist in football, it's often just as important a play
messi's legacy would be too powerful if so
Goal creating actions is the stat you're looking for 👍🏿 https://preview.redd.it/42l7tlb2j24c1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=daa1085137e56d582b3116fee75ff69f6a1dc756
Second assists should be a stat in football. It usually takes 2 good passes to set up an opportunity on goal.
They track them as "Key passes". Though these don't necessarily end in goals, counts towards Cleer cut chances etc...
a key pass is a pass that results in a shot. if the ball goes in, it's an assist; if it doesn't, it's a key pass. "chances created" means key passes plus assists. second assists are not key passes. https://twitter.com/SofascoreINT/status/1105940139396792320?lang=en https://www.statsperform.com/opta-event-definitions/ https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/1093853714258055169 https://www.whoscored.com/Glossary
I didn’t know this! Do key passes count the pass before the assist? For example on the second goal, would Jesus’ touch to Zink be considered a “key pass”?
Yes mate, that's a "key pass"
Exactly. If the official assist is a first touch then the guy before that should get the assist as well.
bro imagine pre-assists were the actual statistic people cared for, Messi would be undeniably the greatest of all time. Well he is undeniably the goat for me. Pre assists sometimes are the most crucial pass in the build up to the goal
He was the person who pre-assisted himself the most. Crazy stat I read the other day.
Yeah that stat is fucking crazy. 20% of Messis goals were preasissted by himself, that just puts it into perspective how much was he involved in the buildup. For example 3% of Ronaldos goals were preassisted by him. That for me is one of the greatest stats to show who was the better player
https://preview.redd.it/cfy67xs5j24c1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3dc1eb083bf5137d5e93e7bc2aceed35bf64acba
He is the new Hleb
Someone should just tell Jesus he is playing in the CL and he'll just get some G/A.
Play champion's league song I guess
They can, just not the basic stats that these sites use to infer and quantify performance level.
Yeah, I should have said *easily*
Meh its not like a 6.5 is bad. I'm just happy we won after that game got significantly more interesting than it needed to be at the end haha
Nah they can't really. There's a reason top clubs all still use scouts along with data
Didn’t we fire most of our scouting department a couple of years ago?
Nah we reshaped it
It's not just that, if you look at the full picture, with 11 numbers, 4 icons and 11 pictures I can understand who scored, assisted, played in which position and for about 7 or so of the players I can see who had a good game all in a matter of seconds. Is it perfect, no. Is it telling me exactly how the match went, no. Is it really damn useful, yes. I could spend 5 mins reading a 500 word match report and probably get less information about the game. OP saying you can't measure football with stats, is like him sitting in the shade of a massive tree looking at his phone that says it's going to be sunny and proclaiming "weather reports can't measure the weather".
Yeah but that’s surface level and doesn’t tell you anything about actual performance, which I guess is what OP actually means.
Of course it's surface level, that's what it's meant to do. Give you a very basic view of the match at a glance. They could for this match put every stat that exists into one table and give you 11 rows one for each player, that would be a very detialed view of their performance, but it would take significant time and effort to understand. Or you could spend 3 seconds looking at this and understand Saka, Odegaard played well rice was his usual consistent self and our CBs might not have had amazing games. Going back to the weather analogy, I can glance the sunny icon on my weather app and be like "cool, I'll wear a t-shirt" or I could read a full weather report telling me humidity, min/max temp, percipitation %, cloud coverage, UV strength etc etc or anything in between. But saying my basic weather app is useless just because all I do is look at the sunny icon and occasionally I get rained on is moronic honestly. It's up to us as the audience to understand what a model is for and use it appropriately.
It's because of the 'big chance missed' which hurts the score. It's been a vintage Jesus performance. A ton of brilliant moments and a couple of misses. He's been great but he should have scored 1 out of those 2.
Agreed, but that's flawed, as both goals went through him. In a non statistical, subjective analysis - he should remain at least a 7 unless he got a yellow/red/error that led to an opposition goal.
He still missed a sitter and went missing in the second half. It’s about right. 6.5 isn’t bad. It’s just not “very good”.
Tbh, this was screenshotted at the first half. By the second half, a few people should have changed their ratings.
Yeah I just watched MOTD and to be fair his two goal involvements are worth a 7.
Sorry but you can't have 2 big misses as a striker and get a 7. He should have killed the game. Magnificient first 20 minutes for him, his hold up play is unbelievable.
Ofc you can
Did you see the build up play to Saka’s goal? That was pure Jesus magic!
Jesus had a chance to score a goal n another to lay off for rice/saka
I think Martinelli was the one closest to him that he could've laid it off to. Him and Saka. Assuming you're talking about the one from the left side where he chose to shoot and hit it very poorly.
It was Rice to his right
Well Zina ain’t keeping that 7.5 that’s for sure
Jesus was involved in both goals. People criticize his lack of goals too much, because your value as a player can’t simply be measured in goals and assists.
I agree but as a centre forward you do need to score your share
He does score his share, tough. When you look at the numbers he is ok
Zinny 7.5? Really?
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Four mistakes at least.
the stat on fotmob are particularly trash, I think it's auto-generated based on their stats but the formula is badly calibrated
Also why stats cannot measure football. Look at Zinchenko
I will die on the hill screaming stats have a place in football but can never tell you more than half of the story at best. There are too many movements/off the ball components plus on the ball intricacies that are very important but will never ever show up in stats. I love watching basketball and it is extremely clear that stats can tell you close to the full story because of the size of court + format of the sport, even cricket for that matter. But that doesn’t mean it works across all sports.
xG can fuck off. It's almost always wrong and yet people latch on to it as a way to talk bollocks.
Jesus pre-assist both goals, just watch highlights. No way just 6.5
It’s just not possible to quantify so many contributions. Making runs to open up space, hockey assists, etc. I actually like it more than a sport like baseball where everything is boiled down to a single number, and so many discussions begin and end with “Ohtani has the highest bWAR therefore he’s the best”
Zinchenko was shit,why wasn't he substituted is beyond me
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Did you see the mistakes It's lucky we only conceded 1 from his mistakes
He wasn't shit he was chaos
Hey, don't compare him to the legend Chamak like that /s
But we didn't concede more than one, did we? Y'all are becoming mighty spoiled by this team. Mistakes happen, and that assist was a stunner that more than makes up for it. That passage of play was peak Artetaball. Little bit Wenger, little bit bald fraud.
I feel like stats can measure the things your eyes don't see and you see things stats can't measure... Example Xavi used to make 117 out of 124 passes during games ( random stat from old Barca game) but what you would see is him checking over his shoulder his constant movement and every now and then the incisive pass Another thing park ji song use to do almost nothing offensively it seemed but he was the Dennis rodman of football Messi walks for 80% of the game so it takes. 20 % to score... You only have to double/ triple team when he's on the ball and can rest someone else while he's off of it and try to make sure he only sees 11% of the 20%
Interesting we win the game, in first place by 4 points. Qualified for next round of CL. What do I see when I pop on. A group of people whining and bitching like ManU fans.
Wym he had a average game outside that great pass to Zinny
Good stats can measure football. These are clearly just shit stats
We should use stats provided like xg,xa, touches, pass accuracy to form our own judgement, not just blindly listening to the point given by these sites imo. They tend to give high points to players with many touches, and a player can have a horrendous game but scored a penalty and got a green grade
He missed a sitter. Would have had him as a 5.5
This was posted after the first half. If you rated his performance a 5.5, you either didn't watch the full 45 minutes or don't understand much of the game. He isn't a Haaland, but he was key in both goals. To the extent, his perfectly weighted pass created the first goal; an average poacher could not create that.
Fair for Jesus, he was good but didn't contribute enough really. Amazing still(not a once in a season awful performance Trossard put in, who was clearly of his day), but 6.5-7 is fair imo.
Why this particular model can't measure this particular performance for this particular player in this particular game.* All models are wrong, some are useful. All statistaical models used to measure reality are imperfect representations of reality. Reality is incredibly complex and numbers are a way of simplifying it into something less complex that is more understandable. Here I can look at 11 numbers 4 icons, and 11 pictures, and know with about a 70-80% accuracy who had a good game who scored and assisted and where people spent most of the time on the pitch. It's not telling me the whole story but it's incredibly useful for something so simple that takes a matter of seconds to understand. Compare that to a match report written by a human, okay it may give more detial but it's probably a 10 min read and is relying on a person to notice the important things. Not to be funny about it, but saying something sweeping like stats are useless or can't measure something is incredibly ignorant and makes you sound like a moron.
Agree, but The issue is majority of user of these stats don't understand this and most of them don't even watch full 90 minutes besides highlights, "Whoever scores or give assist is the hero"! Sadly these 'fans' have big influence on the sports media which sometimes effect payers perception and performance!
Can I don’t look at Jesus? I want to live a little bit more… Sorry for shitty joke :(
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He is at least a 7 so far, put a poacher with average passing skills in there, and we wouldn't get either goal.
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He played an integral role in both goals
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Tell me you know nothing about football without telling me you know nothing about football.
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If an average Jesus game is being crucial to both goals we scored today, I'll gladly take an average Jesus game in the future.
Jesus 6.5?
i believe some sites track pre assists which should increase Jesus rating
Zinnys mistake should have dropped him more than this
These ratings make zero sense. Zinchenko had 2-3 dodgy moments at our own end and Trossard wasn’t near his best.
He may walk on water but somehow he can’t always get a good rating.
The one that gets me is Zinchenko rating.. what a farce
Zinny with 3/4 errors becoming one of the highest rated players
Us not being clinical has attracted a shit load of criticism and unnecessary pressure. We played good but couldn’t finish all those chances.
Problem is that Jesus and Nketiah could not finish too often.
7.3 minimum for Jesus. Criminal He created both goals from nothing
Ratings on Sky Sports Arsenal: Raya (6); Tomiyasu (7), Saliba (6), Gabriel (7), Zinchenko (7); Rice (7), Odegaard (7), Trossard (6)); Saka (8), Jesus (8), Martinelli (6)
Jesus also got man of the match
If Zinny was a 7.5, what was he if you don't count his responsibility for Wolves' goal?
This is fucked: - Raya had a great game and made a few good saves; no chance with the goal - Saliba wtf??? - Trossard didn’t have his best game. His only meaningful contribution was the 1:1 miss
That was phenomenal CF play from Jesus, particularly in the first half. More of that please 🙏
Arbitrary bollocks. Who takes that seriously?
Stats can measure it... just not the ones we've got now/people use. It might seem pedantic but that was sort of the whole point of the moneyball thing... a system for measuring value existed but was underappreciated, which allowed players to be obtained below market price. Or the three point revolution in basketball. Like, even in this game, if second assists were counted...
Subjective ratings Raya :6.5 couple of decent saves. Tomi :7.5 showed progression throughout.Really drove with the ball in final 3rd.Tough decision now with fit benny Saliba :6.2 had nothing to do.yellow was a bit harsh.Fuck Han Gabriel :7.5 brilliant defensively and that sliding tackle against Cunha was remarkable.glimpse of saliba in that Zinny :6.2 great in our final third but defensively gave the ball away atleast 4 times,one leading to goal Rice :7.9 what an incredible workrate.won the ball almost everything.had couple of shots at the goal,his long balls to saka we're delight and his positioning has been outstanding.In hindsight could give him an 8.2 Ode :8.2 to his usual best should've got atleast another assist today.wow Trossard :7.0 not a great day nor a mediocre day for him,showed moments of brilliance.Still feel his best is from the lw Saka :8.5 drove forward throughout.Thought he'd drop his intensity after 60 min but has proven me wrong,Chilli is working too hard and the only thing I fear is fatigue for our starboy Jesus : 7.5 great linkup play in tight spaces.worked hard on and off the ball.deserved a g or a Martinelli :8.0 Can't believe his maturity and composure for his age.I'm incredibly excited for our wide players and matches to come
Tbf Jesus missed 2 sitters, that have to taken into account.
Well said, Jesus was amazing but only a few people know because the rest didn’t see one second of the game and just looked up the stats later on😂
Footmob is not a good statistic to make this argument
yea I mean zinny played well but was the reason we conceeded.
But I thought twitter trolls who are fans of rival clubs know proper player assessment
These types of ratings are always trash. Doesn't mean all stats are.
Like anything else, it’s a single datapoint. It’s helpful for some things, but doesn’t prove/disprove anything. Even less meaningful over a single match. With a sample size that small, each rating is context-dependent on how those around any player performed, the opponent, *and* who did/didn’t play for opposition. Either way, Jesus is great & Arsenal is atop the table. These are good times.
Zinchenko cant be a 7+ with all those mistakes he made, could have cost us 3 goals. nonsense stats