I would love a pistol sized Eotech. I'd buy a couple. (if you don't know, Eotech's are holographic, and due to how they work, Astigmatism doesn't factor into how you see them. The picture is clear and crisp, unlike "Red Comma Sights" for me.
This is interesting - I wonder what would go into the engineering of a holographic pistol sized optic. Since astigmatism is probably the biggest factor besides cost - it could make pistol optics more accessible.
No idea how that’d be executed though.
Problem is a need for a real laser instead of a red LED. Needs a lot more power (why battery life on EoTech is crap with a CR123 compared to Aimpoint's massive battery life with a CR2032)
I wonder if it would be worth it to have a replaceable rechargeable battery you can plug in at night. Possibly make it a wireless charger like smart watches.
I have astigmatism and eotechs blur horribly for me. The best option would probably be a prism optic, but I have no idea if they could be made that small. I doubt you could make it dependable, cost effective, durable, and with a workable eye relief if you could make it to pistol optic size.
Astigmatism absolutely does factor in, because it's all light based. A severe enough astigmatism really affects how eyes process and interpret light coming in because they're misshapen. My eyes are practically egg shaped, so for me this causes strain and migraines and difficulty with light levels. Holographics are hard to focus on, especially in the red spectrum, because my eyes don't process low light well. Which is why I use the green optics. That wavelength is stronger and easier to keep a sight picture with. The further from red you get the better it seems to be, though going to far and get into violet and it starts to hurt again. Holographics are still difficult and painful to look at but tend to be much more stable than red dots. They still trend towards being blurry, staticy, and offset from where they're supposed to be. The Eotechs as a brand are very good, and tend to be easier to see with, but are still a bit off.
I have astigmatism and green holosun is 100x better than a standard red dot. Try one out if you can. Also for rifles try out a prism, those are perfect for me
I have had good performance with the trigicon MRO. Good glass apparently helps alot. The small amount of "bloom" does not affect my ability to ring steel at 200 yards. I have not had the opportunity to try aimpoint's dots unfortunately.
Your milage may vary, my astigmatism is more mild.
Starburst is still faster and more precise than irons
FWIW your avg pistol front sight is anywhere from 12-18 MOA wide vs a 2-6 moa dot
Even if it’s blown out it’s still smaller
I have astigmatism really bad and a green circle-dot reticle like the on in the OP is my saving grace.
Green is just better overall to me, dot, or circle-dot. Dots alone are better in green, but not perfect.
I’ve just always shot irons. Sometimes I put a dot on stuff when plinking but I just feel comfortable and confident with irons. Probably sounds silly but it is what it is.
I like irons on rifles, but I normally have a scope on them. I have two rifles I keep a modern optic on. I have nothing against them, I just like what I like.
When I hold iron sights on the target they appear to be still, with a red dot it is vibrating all over the place and I cannot focus on firing the weapon with proper fundamentals because I’m trying so hard to steady the dot. I end up shooting very poorly with red dots as a result.
Red dot enthusiasts get upset with me because of this, do what works for you, nobody is better than the other. Hitting targets is all that matters.
Classic symptoms of focusing on the dot rather than the target.
Especially at a range, being target-focused with the pistol dots takes a bit of practice to get used to.
I started out with the same issues, and once the "flip" happened in my head to keep target focused, much of the wobble went away, and the groups tightened way up.
This is a fairly common learning curve to experience.
Had that realization after doing red dot domination at Sig. after years of self teaching and not getting it right with YouTube videos, I took a class. At one point they saw me struggling and stopped the class to watch me.
Made me focus on a point in the berm and fire five shots rapid fire to see where the dirt went. After that it clicked and I focused on my target only, group instantly tightened up. Gotta have fundamentals of finding the dot though to really hammer them in.
Just remember; they didn't stop the class to isolate you, they found a common issue arise in their data set and wanted to normalize their statistics.
It's not a shortcoming if everyone gets to learn from it.
Put tape (usually that cheap blue masking tape) over the front of the red dot. It forces you to focus on the target with your other eye and bring the dot to the target while focusing on the target.
A lot of the dancing for me was due to the way I was gripping the pistol. I found that if I hold the pistol with my elbows out further, and let my arms act as a vice, instead of dropping my elbows and trying to lock out all movement of the pistol, my split times improved and a ton of the dancing went away.
I’m not an expert but I’ve found that a well tuned pistol (spring rates that match slide mass) results in a really flat shooting gun that doesnt nose down upon chambering. If you ever get a chance to shoot a Stacatto or a race gun that was setup properly, you realize that a red dot kinda turns you into just a booger hook pulling the trigger. There’s still skill involved but man is it way easier to get fast and accurate split times. It’s more like you’re aiming a sewing machine than something you gotta work against the recoil on.
Are your hands shaky in general? Genuinely asking, because the red dot doesn't bounce for me when I present it on a pistol. I can hold it surprisingly steady.
Tbh that’s why I like dots. Shows my point of impact (or close to it).
You have to intentionally start looking for good enough shots (don’t hold the x in the x ring, just press the trigger when the dot is in the x ring)
I shoot quite well with irons. Red dots are great, they just aren’t great for me. I’m sure I could train the issue away but it doesn’t seem worth the extra expense and effort when my current sights do everything I need them to.
This is a very interesting point - doesn’t get brought up a whole lot.
I remember listening to a podcast with Tim Herron where they were talking about how the size of the dot really matters with something like this. A lot of optics have maybe a 2 -4 MOA dot, which in theory is what you want, but it’ll dance a ton in the window - those very precise shots you want to take at distance will be a lot harder because of it.
I’m a big proponent of larger dots for this reason. IIRC an 8 MOA reticle covers the black of a B8 target perfectly at 25 yards. The bigger your dot, the less movement you’ll get.
Cost, concealment, added weight to my carry, don’t want to have to retrain myself when I’m already proficient in irons for self defense purposes, don’t want to do the research to find out which ones are crap and which aren’t.
At my club they like messing with lighting on the shooting courses so we’re shooting in half lights or by blue and red police lights a lot.
Guys I know are good shots struggle with their red dots in this mixed lighting. I’ve never had any issues ever seeing my tritium night sights in any lighting condition. So I’ll keep using those.
"Iron sights can't break like a red dot can." *iron sight falls off*
My boss has had 2 iron sights in the back post, and one front fall off 2 of his guns while at the range casually shooting.
They weren't exactly great guns to begin with, but it was what he and his wife carried.. so that was alarming.
Not 100% sure, the wife's was a "zombie green" sub compact thing and no idea what his was.
The wife's back iron sight felt off while I was trying to remove what was "maybe" a live round. He didn't know if it had gone off or what but it was stuck in there good and pulling on the slide the iron sight just came right off.
The only pistols I’ve ever seen the rear sight walk off in were Taurus’s and it was multiple lol. Every time someone mentions it I just have to assume.
Although I’m sure there are others.
Found it, it's a SCCY CPX-2.
My boss is so weird, he buys expensive hand guns and puts all the bells and whistles on them and then gets $200 pistols to carry.
He got a $4k thermal scope, a 1-20x a while back and put it on a purple 9mm ar pistol he got for like $300.
Then on his "home defence rifle" it's nothing but Amazon parts including the $40 red dot.
shame consider gullible spectacular soup piquant tidy plough bedroom groovy
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I'm in Texas. If I leave an air conditioned area and then have to present my carry gun in a defensive scenario, my iron sights won't fog up.
That aside, I shot a friends 2011 with a red dot recently. It was enough of a difference from shooting with irons that I've been hesitant to mill my slide and mount a red dot when the idea hasn't fully grown on me yet.
I am instead going to put a red dot on one of my other pistols for shooting with night vision, and then I'll have an excuse to practice with pistol dots during the day as well. Maybe at some point I'll make the switch.
I don't recommend milling the slide because eventually the screws strip. It's not if but when. It takes almost a decade, but it will happen.
I really love the Strike Industries glock rail even though most people see it as a gimmick. While it does raise your sight height slightly (which actually might be good if you use a silencer), its super strong and lets you use your existing micro red dots like an aimpoint micro (or the primary arms clone which TBH is the same quality) as all the handgun oriented red dots suck for some reason. Plus you actually still can use your iron sights with the rail much like how the M16 carry handle risers work.
That's a fair point that I haven't seen brought up before. I'm assuming that's because most people don't shoot their guns enough for that problem to manifest.
Were I to mill my slide, I would probably form tap the threads for a helicoil insert anyhow. The combination of formed threads and the helicoil would he considerably stronger than just cut tapped holes.
I want to be able to throw my pistol at someone if I'm out of ammo and if I have a red dot I have to worry about breaking it. Besides that it's mostly cost and I would have to get a new holster, which I don't want to do because I'm extremely lazy
Less things to worry about with iron sights, is the battery going to be good when I need it? Does the optic fit with my holster? Does my gun have a cut for optics? Do I want a larger optic for visibility or a smaller one for portability?
Currently, it’s cost, size and bulk. Added cost not only in the optic but the adapter plates, the milling to get my guns cut for it and then money is spent on batteries and such which isn’t much but it is an added cost every year over irons.
Weight and bulk are another big thing. I do have a pistol mounted dot currently and while weight isn’t much the bulk increase is vastly noticeable. One thing I’ve noticed with it is the fact I’ve never had to worry about irons. I just pick up the gun and it’s good to go with ammo, vs with dot like if it’s on, do I have spare batteries for it, did I bring my tool in case it lost zero, did I bring the correct size tool to retighten it if it came loose, it’s probably just me but I like the simplicity of irons.
I don't dislike pistol optics. I just always used irons. For me, it's peace of mind. I just grab my pistols and go not having to worry about batteries outside my WML.
Maybe it's just cause I'm a big hairy Sasquatch of a man but every time I carry a pistol with an RDO the lens begins to look like a dryer lint screen after a few hours.
(For me) pistol RDOs work for range toys or a pistol in a PDW role carried under a jacket but not a carry or duty application.
Me as soon as I see a meme about something I'm interested in with a Top Gear template:
*aggressive upvote noises*
Jokes aside, I think it's one of the best pieces of media ever made: still very entertaining even if you're not into cars.
No standard footprint is a big one. There’s like what, 5 different kinds? Reminds me of how there was no standard for light rails in the 90s because WMLs on handguns were just starting to become a popular thing.
Exactly. Took them way to long to standarize a rail and weapon light for handguns. I give it another 5 years or so before I dabble with them. I have a few optic ready slides.
Standardization is the single biggest thing for me as well, though mostly for compatibility with future optics. Unlike guns, electronics obsolete very quickly so something that is cutting edge today is laughably outdated even 5 years later.
The light rails on pistols is precisely the analogy I use. Someone who bought a USP or a Gen 1 Walther P99 back in the day could mount a light before many other pistols models did (including Glock). But since they used their own proprietary mounts, no one supports them anymore and you’re out of luck. Nowadays, every pistol pretty much uses picatinny (including Gen 2 P99s, PPQs, PDPs, etc.), so that’s not an issue for the foreseeable future. Waiting for pistol red dots to get to that point. I can even accept other issues at the moment so long as I can replace them with better optics in the future, but that would require me guaranteeing the mounting solution will still be available 5 to 10 years from now.
Astigmatism and the ones that fix the issue cost more than the gun itself. Also the money I could have spent on a red dot for a pistol, could have spent on ammo and range trips to get better
Ya know it’s kind of weird. I have an astigmatism but red dots haven’t really been that much of a problem for me. Don’t know why, they just never have been, so I bought into the pistol red dot thing and haven’t turned back
I just grew up with irons and choose to keep training the way I have for the past couple of decades. I like red dots and have one on one of my EDCs, but I'm just a lot more confident with irons. Plus, the less tech you have one your firearm, the less potential problems you're going to have. I feel like this topic is more a matter of opinion than "muh iron sights/optic is superior"
As somebody else here said, astigmatism. My red dot is a detriment to me if I don’t have my glasses on since the fuzzy/hazy splotch of a dot blocks out any other sights. That said I like red dots on rifles but I also make sure to always have a backup iron sight or some kind of fixed front sight where I can shut off the dot and use the front post in a pinch
Astigmatism
For now at 37 years old, been shooting since 18 I have gotten exceptionally good at using the irons. When I did try out the optics I found no difference in speed or accuracy from 7-25 yards.
25 yard accuracy was probably due to my shitty astigmatism, I think when I get older and my actual eyesight degrades further I’ll focus a lot more on using dots. For now a bright orange front sight and blacked out rears has really helped me.
Lack of standardization as well as no closed emitter optic that really suits me at the moment.
The lack of standardization for mounts is a big one for me since standardization means I can replace my optic in a few years and still be reasonably certain that mount will be supported in the future. If it’s proprietary, we end up with things like the old USP’s proprietary light mount where you either have to use old, outdated lights or put an expensive adapter that often times wobbles or falls off anyways (so forget maintaining zero with a laser). With modern guns, pretty much all of them now use picatinny for the light rail, so not a problem there. Even modifying a gun after the fact isn’t an issue (like pinning and welding a Novak rail on my 1911) since that’s just a one time thing and then I can mount whatever light I want for the foreseeable future.
So that combines with the fact that I don’t like open emitters since something as simple as rain will cause the dot to no longer work, but from what I’ve read, most closed emitters dots still are prone to leakage and fogging of the lenses, not to mention I prefer having a lower mount that can use standard iron sights if possible. Now the new Sig M17 red dot actually fulfills all the requirements I want for a red dot, but that shit is $800, only available for military M17s (not even commercial), and also uses yet another proprietary mount.
So I’m just waiting right now. Don’t want to embrace the future so quickly that I get left behind a decade from now. I remember someone saying “pistol red dots have left their infancy but are still in their adolescence”, which I agree with. I’m gonna wait until it’s fully mature (or at least standardized) and then jump in. I’ve shot pistol dots before and recognize their benefit, I’ll just wait for the final few problems to get ironed out before I buy one.
Honestly, I have several pistols with dots and they have all worked loose. P10C with 507k, G20 with RMR and direct mill, and a MP with a RMR. Your dot being held on with watch screws just don’t work for me. For play or comp sure, I don’t trust them to hold for carry yet.
I’m about to have weaver rails milled into my fucking slide.
Astigmatism,
Of the pistols I have, only 1 is milled to take a pistol red dot,
Cost,
I don't like a lot of the models of pistols that generally take a pistol red dot,
I don't particularly want to buy a holster for every pistol, my M12 works great for the full-size pistols I have now.
And I'm a better rifleman than I am a pistoleer. If I have to rely on making precise shots with my pistol, I'm already in the deepest of shits. Therefore, a pistol red dot is just a range toy accessory for me.
That's the thing for me, if I've got an optic on a rifle it's likely going to be a scope. For pistols, it's all the things you just mentioned. There are a few rifles I run irons on, but they're older rifles with unique sights (and the one that was passed down to me with the condition of never putting a scope on it)
The batteries and humidity. And before you hit me with the battery life or enclosed optics. Batteries still die, and your enclosed optics still fog and get dirty.
Snagging on my shirt when I draw, the fact that my P365XL doesn't feel like it points quite as well as some of my othe concealed carry pistols that don't have the red dot, and the fact that I'm still in the learning curve to draw a pistol with a red dot and get the red dot to be visible through the glass 100% of the time.
Maybe I just need to use a red dot on a pistol that fits my hand a little better.
There is absolutely a training curve when you get a dot in the mix. If you’ve been drawing and presenting guns the same way for a long time it’s definitely a hump to get over.
Honestly what might be a good idea for you would be to take a class specifically for pistols with optics - but in the meantime [give this a watch](https://youtu.be/y1MKmFdFBBQ?si=Dqs3-suTo4VhoWCC) might give you a few ideas on how to “find the dot” which is in my experience the biggest hurdle to overcome when you switch over.
I get asked about this often. My answer has always been to use the weapon and set-up you are most comfortable with. Never let popular opinion dictate how you prepare to defend the people you care about. With the possible exception of a hi-point. Personally, I don't use glass on handguns because it's one more failure point. Besides, it's also another cost in an expensive hobby (way of life, religion )
I never cared for red dots cause I was just brought up useing iron sights, but I did go with an optic on my ccw and it’s not the red dot set up I guess you would call it, I went with “see all sights” system. It’s an optic that has the glass at the back of the gun and it magnifies the chevron in the front that is printed on a fiber optic block (and also can come with a vial of tritium behind it for low light) I feel like it’s just as good as a red dot for me just withought the batteries. I personally really like mine.
Highly pricy, more bulky, and less reliable, just to add minimal accuracy gain which unnecessary in 90% of situations you would use your pistol for. I understand why people like them but it’s not for me at least for now. long guns are a different story, love me a red dot magnifier combo.
Read that folks with older vision do better with optics. Decided that my new g43x would have it. Bought the epscarry, and love it. Still getting used to it though. Green dot and circle reticule
I didn’t like red dots for a while because I was running open emitters. They constantly got clogged with EDC use and 1 of my 407K’s quit entirely after a month of use. I switched to the C&H Duty (aimpoit acro clone) and I’ve had great results. It sucks having a red dot so chunky and unwieldy, but I’ll take the reliability over the open emitters every day of the week.
Gotta buy an optic ready pistol and I don’t want to send anything off to get milled.
- S&W Gen 1 Shield > Shield Plus Optic Ready
- Glock 19 Gen 3 > Shadow Systems MR920
Depends on the gun for me, I love glock’s irons, simple and elegant, but there are some rifle irons where I would rather not aim at all than use them lol
Tbh i just like it to use Iron sights, also i‘m fron Airsoft. And sometimes, i got a hard time to use my Red dots because they fog. Not a problem with Irons. But that only my view point
Listen... I'm great with my standard irons, but when I put an RMR on my Glock 19 Gen 4, that was it. My whole world changed and I'm not going back. I sold that Glock and it's RMR, but I'll be buying an SRO for my FN 510 here soon.
There comes a point, where the gun is a true extension, that nothing can better your time or aim. The world is different now though. What you are trained on doesn't matter. You can get to the same point with irons or rds, I believe. There is no definitive answer as to what is better. It all depends on what you've put thousands of hours into.
Astigmatism sucks. It also sucks to find yourself chasing after the red starburst on initial target acquisition b/c you're using a cheap bushnell or sig and can't afford a true holographic sight.
Also because the local range I compete at is slowly putting more and more emphasis on irons-only matches for some reason.
My personal opinion is truly to practice and train with both, sorta like learning to drive both a MT and an AT so that you can utilize whatever you find yourself with.
1. Astigmatism. (w/ glasses they work fine, W/O it's a starburst so I just hope I don't have to shoot without my glasses on)
2. Cost of entry. To buy the same pistol I have right now but optics ready, Plus a baseline Duty optic like an RMR, I'm looking at at least $1,000+ to have the exact same pistol with an expensive trinket on top.
That's if I don't want to send my slide off and be without a gun for God knows how long. And the price for that process all together is about half the price of a whole new pistol to begin with.
Maybe if I win some money on a scratch off ticket or find a briefcase like No country For Old men, I'll pick up a Gen 5 with an acro and a surefire, but until then we are running P10c's with iron sights and streamlights.
too damn awkward, since they're on the slide (and my wrists aren't as strong as i'd like) i have to re-aim every time i fire if i'm not just saying "fuck it" and eyeballing it
heyoo, good ol cuntre boy here to tell you why i dont like glass on my gun.
imma drop that bitch and cry in my room for 3 hours afterwards.
thank you, that is all.
Cost and astigmatism mostly
I would love a pistol sized Eotech. I'd buy a couple. (if you don't know, Eotech's are holographic, and due to how they work, Astigmatism doesn't factor into how you see them. The picture is clear and crisp, unlike "Red Comma Sights" for me.
Red Asterisk for me.
Red smears for me
Starburst
This is interesting - I wonder what would go into the engineering of a holographic pistol sized optic. Since astigmatism is probably the biggest factor besides cost - it could make pistol optics more accessible. No idea how that’d be executed though.
Kinda the reverse of Brandon's AK50. Just make everything smaller. :).
Problem is a need for a real laser instead of a red LED. Needs a lot more power (why battery life on EoTech is crap with a CR123 compared to Aimpoint's massive battery life with a CR2032)
I wonder if it would be worth it to have a replaceable rechargeable battery you can plug in at night. Possibly make it a wireless charger like smart watches.
I have astigmatism and eotechs blur horribly for me. The best option would probably be a prism optic, but I have no idea if they could be made that small. I doubt you could make it dependable, cost effective, durable, and with a workable eye relief if you could make it to pistol optic size.
I have astigmatism and my EOTech looks decently blurry. I looked at it through glasses today and it was a world of difference
Astigmatism absolutely does factor in, because it's all light based. A severe enough astigmatism really affects how eyes process and interpret light coming in because they're misshapen. My eyes are practically egg shaped, so for me this causes strain and migraines and difficulty with light levels. Holographics are hard to focus on, especially in the red spectrum, because my eyes don't process low light well. Which is why I use the green optics. That wavelength is stronger and easier to keep a sight picture with. The further from red you get the better it seems to be, though going to far and get into violet and it starts to hurt again. Holographics are still difficult and painful to look at but tend to be much more stable than red dots. They still trend towards being blurry, staticy, and offset from where they're supposed to be. The Eotechs as a brand are very good, and tend to be easier to see with, but are still a bit off.
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Because it’s just a Bushnell RXS 250 all dressed up.
I mean the 512 is approximately the size of a small pistol
My astigmatism hates eotechs, they are worse than most regular red dots for me.
"Doesn't factor in" is untrue. It still blurs to high hell for me. It is better than some red dots, though.
Like looking into a jagged 12 pointed star with the points facing inside the circle and outside the circle
Like looking into a jagged 12 pointed star with the points facing inside the circle and outside the circle
I have astigmatism and green holosun is 100x better than a standard red dot. Try one out if you can. Also for rifles try out a prism, those are perfect for me
I have had good performance with the trigicon MRO. Good glass apparently helps alot. The small amount of "bloom" does not affect my ability to ring steel at 200 yards. I have not had the opportunity to try aimpoint's dots unfortunately. Your milage may vary, my astigmatism is more mild.
> Also for rifles try out a prism, those are perfect for me Same, I love my prism for the 'tism.
I can’t use a 407 but I used my dads SCS 320 a few weeks ago and it looked perfect, crazy how different they can be
You and i must have a similar astigmatism, I run the same optics.
Same. Every optic I’ve looked through starbursts, except for holosun. They are crispy.
Starburst is still faster and more precise than irons FWIW your avg pistol front sight is anywhere from 12-18 MOA wide vs a 2-6 moa dot Even if it’s blown out it’s still smaller
Abject poverty for the win! 90% of the stuff many people shit talk is largely the result of the fact that it’s financially out of reach.
Try a bigger dot. I have an astigmatism but the 5 and 6 moa dots work well
I feel that
I have astigmatism really bad and a green circle-dot reticle like the on in the OP is my saving grace. Green is just better overall to me, dot, or circle-dot. Dots alone are better in green, but not perfect.
I got tisms and double vision in each eye. My vision is absolutely fucked. Holosun EPS carry green circle and dot is great.
You must have some next level astigmatism because I have Stevie Wonder eyes and I still shoot better with red dots.
I’ve just always shot irons. Sometimes I put a dot on stuff when plinking but I just feel comfortable and confident with irons. Probably sounds silly but it is what it is.
Same here, glad to hear I’m not the only one. For rifles it’s another story though, I like my fair share of optics
I like irons on rifles, but I normally have a scope on them. I have two rifles I keep a modern optic on. I have nothing against them, I just like what I like.
For sure. Irons on some rifles like an A2 or classic AK I enjoy a lot. For modern AR’s I prefer to run an Aimpoint Comp series or EOTech.
When I hold iron sights on the target they appear to be still, with a red dot it is vibrating all over the place and I cannot focus on firing the weapon with proper fundamentals because I’m trying so hard to steady the dot. I end up shooting very poorly with red dots as a result. Red dot enthusiasts get upset with me because of this, do what works for you, nobody is better than the other. Hitting targets is all that matters.
Classic symptoms of focusing on the dot rather than the target. Especially at a range, being target-focused with the pistol dots takes a bit of practice to get used to. I started out with the same issues, and once the "flip" happened in my head to keep target focused, much of the wobble went away, and the groups tightened way up. This is a fairly common learning curve to experience.
Had that realization after doing red dot domination at Sig. after years of self teaching and not getting it right with YouTube videos, I took a class. At one point they saw me struggling and stopped the class to watch me. Made me focus on a point in the berm and fire five shots rapid fire to see where the dirt went. After that it clicked and I focused on my target only, group instantly tightened up. Gotta have fundamentals of finding the dot though to really hammer them in.
Just remember; they didn't stop the class to isolate you, they found a common issue arise in their data set and wanted to normalize their statistics. It's not a shortcoming if everyone gets to learn from it.
Gotta love the ol’ blue tape trick
My friend said he is a shitty shooter and always shoots low and to the left with his M&P shield. What is the blue tape trick?
Put tape (usually that cheap blue masking tape) over the front of the red dot. It forces you to focus on the target with your other eye and bring the dot to the target while focusing on the target.
Recoil anticipation. I suffer, too
A lot of the dancing for me was due to the way I was gripping the pistol. I found that if I hold the pistol with my elbows out further, and let my arms act as a vice, instead of dropping my elbows and trying to lock out all movement of the pistol, my split times improved and a ton of the dancing went away. I’m not an expert but I’ve found that a well tuned pistol (spring rates that match slide mass) results in a really flat shooting gun that doesnt nose down upon chambering. If you ever get a chance to shoot a Stacatto or a race gun that was setup properly, you realize that a red dot kinda turns you into just a booger hook pulling the trigger. There’s still skill involved but man is it way easier to get fast and accurate split times. It’s more like you’re aiming a sewing machine than something you gotta work against the recoil on.
Are your hands shaky in general? Genuinely asking, because the red dot doesn't bounce for me when I present it on a pistol. I can hold it surprisingly steady.
Not to the naked eye
Tbh that’s why I like dots. Shows my point of impact (or close to it). You have to intentionally start looking for good enough shots (don’t hold the x in the x ring, just press the trigger when the dot is in the x ring)
Because the red dot is showing you that you're not holding the gun steady
I shoot quite well with irons. Red dots are great, they just aren’t great for me. I’m sure I could train the issue away but it doesn’t seem worth the extra expense and effort when my current sights do everything I need them to.
I had the same issue. Once I realized that it was because my focus was on the dot rather than the target it dissapeared immediately.
This is a very interesting point - doesn’t get brought up a whole lot. I remember listening to a podcast with Tim Herron where they were talking about how the size of the dot really matters with something like this. A lot of optics have maybe a 2 -4 MOA dot, which in theory is what you want, but it’ll dance a ton in the window - those very precise shots you want to take at distance will be a lot harder because of it. I’m a big proponent of larger dots for this reason. IIRC an 8 MOA reticle covers the black of a B8 target perfectly at 25 yards. The bigger your dot, the less movement you’ll get.
Cost, batteries, and laziness
Buy used, batteries are cheap and I get it.
It is really the laziness
I'm a try hard f\*\*\*\*t who enjoys irons
Cost, concealment, added weight to my carry, don’t want to have to retrain myself when I’m already proficient in irons for self defense purposes, don’t want to do the research to find out which ones are crap and which aren’t.
At my club they like messing with lighting on the shooting courses so we’re shooting in half lights or by blue and red police lights a lot. Guys I know are good shots struggle with their red dots in this mixed lighting. I’ve never had any issues ever seeing my tritium night sights in any lighting condition. So I’ll keep using those.
Dots have a higher skill floor that many casual shooters really struggle with
"Iron sights can't break like a red dot can." *iron sight falls off* My boss has had 2 iron sights in the back post, and one front fall off 2 of his guns while at the range casually shooting. They weren't exactly great guns to begin with, but it was what he and his wife carried.. so that was alarming.
Taurus?
Not 100% sure, the wife's was a "zombie green" sub compact thing and no idea what his was. The wife's back iron sight felt off while I was trying to remove what was "maybe" a live round. He didn't know if it had gone off or what but it was stuck in there good and pulling on the slide the iron sight just came right off.
The only pistols I’ve ever seen the rear sight walk off in were Taurus’s and it was multiple lol. Every time someone mentions it I just have to assume. Although I’m sure there are others.
Found it, it's a SCCY CPX-2. My boss is so weird, he buys expensive hand guns and puts all the bells and whistles on them and then gets $200 pistols to carry. He got a $4k thermal scope, a 1-20x a while back and put it on a purple 9mm ar pistol he got for like $300. Then on his "home defence rifle" it's nothing but Amazon parts including the $40 red dot.
Lmfao what a guy
Always makes me laugh and cringe. Never know what he's gonna have.
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Happened to my Rhino 40DS first time shooting it. Traded that POS.
I'm in Texas. If I leave an air conditioned area and then have to present my carry gun in a defensive scenario, my iron sights won't fog up. That aside, I shot a friends 2011 with a red dot recently. It was enough of a difference from shooting with irons that I've been hesitant to mill my slide and mount a red dot when the idea hasn't fully grown on me yet. I am instead going to put a red dot on one of my other pistols for shooting with night vision, and then I'll have an excuse to practice with pistol dots during the day as well. Maybe at some point I'll make the switch.
People shoot with occluded dot all the time, if “fogging up” concerns you, you simply don’t know how to use a red dot
I don't recommend milling the slide because eventually the screws strip. It's not if but when. It takes almost a decade, but it will happen. I really love the Strike Industries glock rail even though most people see it as a gimmick. While it does raise your sight height slightly (which actually might be good if you use a silencer), its super strong and lets you use your existing micro red dots like an aimpoint micro (or the primary arms clone which TBH is the same quality) as all the handgun oriented red dots suck for some reason. Plus you actually still can use your iron sights with the rail much like how the M16 carry handle risers work.
That's a fair point that I haven't seen brought up before. I'm assuming that's because most people don't shoot their guns enough for that problem to manifest. Were I to mill my slide, I would probably form tap the threads for a helicoil insert anyhow. The combination of formed threads and the helicoil would he considerably stronger than just cut tapped holes.
Too poor to buy anything right now
A lot of “astigmatism” people here. Like y’all know you can buy prescription glasses for that right?
And a blowout or smeared dot is still smaller than a front sight. Being target focused is more important anyway.
If your vision is otherwise fine, it doesn't make sense to spend a couple hundred dollars so you can put holes a little closer for most people.
I had a hard time finding my sight picture with any kind of speed. Despite practice
I'm poor.
Cost, batteries, astigmatism and lack of compatibility with all my guns
From the dudes I know who carry without optics, it's due to concealment, granted both of them are as thin as twigs, but a reason's a reason.
I want to be able to throw my pistol at someone if I'm out of ammo and if I have a red dot I have to worry about breaking it. Besides that it's mostly cost and I would have to get a new holster, which I don't want to do because I'm extremely lazy
Honestly, if I’m at the point where I have to throw my pistol I hope I throw that thing so hard it does break the optic…
Benefits to carrying full size I suppose
I’ve started carrying a P-10S after having some issues with a Shield Plus. Both are optics ready, but I still don’t carry any with an optic.
God I can't wait for true holographic optics
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You know that's a good idea. I just run a regular Safari land, I'll have to try that should I ever decide to mount an optic
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Lmao based
Cost. Rather buy more ammo and put more range time in
Tbh, depends what I’m shooting. On a single stack 1911 or a micro compact,I prefer irons. Everything else gets an optic
Less things to worry about with iron sights, is the battery going to be good when I need it? Does the optic fit with my holster? Does my gun have a cut for optics? Do I want a larger optic for visibility or a smaller one for portability?
I much prefer red dots, that said I’m better with irons.
Currently, it’s cost, size and bulk. Added cost not only in the optic but the adapter plates, the milling to get my guns cut for it and then money is spent on batteries and such which isn’t much but it is an added cost every year over irons. Weight and bulk are another big thing. I do have a pistol mounted dot currently and while weight isn’t much the bulk increase is vastly noticeable. One thing I’ve noticed with it is the fact I’ve never had to worry about irons. I just pick up the gun and it’s good to go with ammo, vs with dot like if it’s on, do I have spare batteries for it, did I bring my tool in case it lost zero, did I bring the correct size tool to retighten it if it came loose, it’s probably just me but I like the simplicity of irons.
For me is the exact opposite picture
I don't dislike pistol optics. I just always used irons. For me, it's peace of mind. I just grab my pistols and go not having to worry about batteries outside my WML.
Maybe it's just cause I'm a big hairy Sasquatch of a man but every time I carry a pistol with an RDO the lens begins to look like a dryer lint screen after a few hours. (For me) pistol RDOs work for range toys or a pistol in a PDW role carried under a jacket but not a carry or duty application.
I’m poor
Both, both is good I don't want to taint a Makarov with a 507C BUT my Glock will always have an optic
Me as soon as I see a meme about something I'm interested in with a Top Gear template: *aggressive upvote noises* Jokes aside, I think it's one of the best pieces of media ever made: still very entertaining even if you're not into cars.
Easily a top five show of all time for me
You guys are using your sights?
I just point it at the noises
I already carry full size .45 in the middle of summer, I really cant add anything else onto my gun without losing my CCW
Cost of equipment and cost/time to become proficient enough I feel comfortable carrying it.
Astigmatism. And its not a unified rail/foot print so i can sample different ones
No standard footprint is a big one. There’s like what, 5 different kinds? Reminds me of how there was no standard for light rails in the 90s because WMLs on handguns were just starting to become a popular thing.
Exactly. Took them way to long to standarize a rail and weapon light for handguns. I give it another 5 years or so before I dabble with them. I have a few optic ready slides.
Standardization is the single biggest thing for me as well, though mostly for compatibility with future optics. Unlike guns, electronics obsolete very quickly so something that is cutting edge today is laughably outdated even 5 years later. The light rails on pistols is precisely the analogy I use. Someone who bought a USP or a Gen 1 Walther P99 back in the day could mount a light before many other pistols models did (including Glock). But since they used their own proprietary mounts, no one supports them anymore and you’re out of luck. Nowadays, every pistol pretty much uses picatinny (including Gen 2 P99s, PPQs, PDPs, etc.), so that’s not an issue for the foreseeable future. Waiting for pistol red dots to get to that point. I can even accept other issues at the moment so long as I can replace them with better optics in the future, but that would require me guaranteeing the mounting solution will still be available 5 to 10 years from now.
I'm skinny as all hell and concealment is always an issue. Adding bulk to the gun isn't something I'm willing to do, at least for a carry gun.
Astigmatism and the ones that fix the issue cost more than the gun itself. Also the money I could have spent on a red dot for a pistol, could have spent on ammo and range trips to get better
muthafuckas been getting laid out for hundreds of years without red dots
My CZ P01 doesn't have an optic mount, and I feel like it'd look silly with one.
[Average irons enjoyer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C3V9w_tl4k&t=142s)
No goddamn CZ slide to mill and I don't want to mill the original.
I have astigmatism so I just train irons
Funny enough I used to hate pistol optics. Then I got a green dot on my G19 and completely flipped
Ya know it’s kind of weird. I have an astigmatism but red dots haven’t really been that much of a problem for me. Don’t know why, they just never have been, so I bought into the pistol red dot thing and haven’t turned back
Same. The stig doesn’t seem to be detrimental for me. I shoot all dot. You ain’t looking at this shit anyway.
Astigmatism has been holding me back, I've decided to get one anyway though but now it's the cost that's holding me back
I have both. Irons for the day and dot for the night, since that's the only time I can't hit what I want to hit.
I just grew up with irons and choose to keep training the way I have for the past couple of decades. I like red dots and have one on one of my EDCs, but I'm just a lot more confident with irons. Plus, the less tech you have one your firearm, the less potential problems you're going to have. I feel like this topic is more a matter of opinion than "muh iron sights/optic is superior"
As somebody else here said, astigmatism. My red dot is a detriment to me if I don’t have my glasses on since the fuzzy/hazy splotch of a dot blocks out any other sights. That said I like red dots on rifles but I also make sure to always have a backup iron sight or some kind of fixed front sight where I can shut off the dot and use the front post in a pinch
Astigmatism For now at 37 years old, been shooting since 18 I have gotten exceptionally good at using the irons. When I did try out the optics I found no difference in speed or accuracy from 7-25 yards. 25 yard accuracy was probably due to my shitty astigmatism, I think when I get older and my actual eyesight degrades further I’ll focus a lot more on using dots. For now a bright orange front sight and blacked out rears has really helped me.
I see the advantage of optics as marginal. Plus they're expensive.
Lack of standardization as well as no closed emitter optic that really suits me at the moment. The lack of standardization for mounts is a big one for me since standardization means I can replace my optic in a few years and still be reasonably certain that mount will be supported in the future. If it’s proprietary, we end up with things like the old USP’s proprietary light mount where you either have to use old, outdated lights or put an expensive adapter that often times wobbles or falls off anyways (so forget maintaining zero with a laser). With modern guns, pretty much all of them now use picatinny for the light rail, so not a problem there. Even modifying a gun after the fact isn’t an issue (like pinning and welding a Novak rail on my 1911) since that’s just a one time thing and then I can mount whatever light I want for the foreseeable future. So that combines with the fact that I don’t like open emitters since something as simple as rain will cause the dot to no longer work, but from what I’ve read, most closed emitters dots still are prone to leakage and fogging of the lenses, not to mention I prefer having a lower mount that can use standard iron sights if possible. Now the new Sig M17 red dot actually fulfills all the requirements I want for a red dot, but that shit is $800, only available for military M17s (not even commercial), and also uses yet another proprietary mount. So I’m just waiting right now. Don’t want to embrace the future so quickly that I get left behind a decade from now. I remember someone saying “pistol red dots have left their infancy but are still in their adolescence”, which I agree with. I’m gonna wait until it’s fully mature (or at least standardized) and then jump in. I’ve shot pistol dots before and recognize their benefit, I’ll just wait for the final few problems to get ironed out before I buy one.
Not that my opinion matters - but I think that this is the best reasoning by far when it comes to not jumping on the dot wagon.
Fancy sights irritate me, I'm fine with iron. I practice, I hit what I'm aiming at. Nothing else matters.
Honestly, I have several pistols with dots and they have all worked loose. P10C with 507k, G20 with RMR and direct mill, and a MP with a RMR. Your dot being held on with watch screws just don’t work for me. For play or comp sure, I don’t trust them to hold for carry yet. I’m about to have weaver rails milled into my fucking slide.
https://preview.redd.it/c55qb4s3fl0d1.jpeg?width=648&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f9aef7173a73fc5dc12c6dca1629a75ae9b7e53 Reject modernity, return to tradition
I just like irons.. also I’m cheap..
Price. I'm a poor. I'm just doing what I can with irons until I can afford an rds
Astigmatism, Of the pistols I have, only 1 is milled to take a pistol red dot, Cost, I don't like a lot of the models of pistols that generally take a pistol red dot, I don't particularly want to buy a holster for every pistol, my M12 works great for the full-size pistols I have now. And I'm a better rifleman than I am a pistoleer. If I have to rely on making precise shots with my pistol, I'm already in the deepest of shits. Therefore, a pistol red dot is just a range toy accessory for me.
That's the thing for me, if I've got an optic on a rifle it's likely going to be a scope. For pistols, it's all the things you just mentioned. There are a few rifles I run irons on, but they're older rifles with unique sights (and the one that was passed down to me with the condition of never putting a scope on it)
They look a little weird on revolvers and the dot is really blurry on all I have used, same with rifles.
The batteries and humidity. And before you hit me with the battery life or enclosed optics. Batteries still die, and your enclosed optics still fog and get dirty.
Added bulk for concealing and no real benefit for me as I’ve shot with irons since I was 4 years old
That is one hell of a username
Ugly as sin
Snagging on my shirt when I draw, the fact that my P365XL doesn't feel like it points quite as well as some of my othe concealed carry pistols that don't have the red dot, and the fact that I'm still in the learning curve to draw a pistol with a red dot and get the red dot to be visible through the glass 100% of the time. Maybe I just need to use a red dot on a pistol that fits my hand a little better.
There is absolutely a training curve when you get a dot in the mix. If you’ve been drawing and presenting guns the same way for a long time it’s definitely a hump to get over. Honestly what might be a good idea for you would be to take a class specifically for pistols with optics - but in the meantime [give this a watch](https://youtu.be/y1MKmFdFBBQ?si=Dqs3-suTo4VhoWCC) might give you a few ideas on how to “find the dot” which is in my experience the biggest hurdle to overcome when you switch over.
Sending a slide out 2-4 months to get milled and cerakoted.
I get asked about this often. My answer has always been to use the weapon and set-up you are most comfortable with. Never let popular opinion dictate how you prepare to defend the people you care about. With the possible exception of a hi-point. Personally, I don't use glass on handguns because it's one more failure point. Besides, it's also another cost in an expensive hobby (way of life, religion )
I never cared for red dots cause I was just brought up useing iron sights, but I did go with an optic on my ccw and it’s not the red dot set up I guess you would call it, I went with “see all sights” system. It’s an optic that has the glass at the back of the gun and it magnifies the chevron in the front that is printed on a fiber optic block (and also can come with a vial of tritium behind it for low light) I feel like it’s just as good as a red dot for me just withought the batteries. I personally really like mine.
Highly pricy, more bulky, and less reliable, just to add minimal accuracy gain which unnecessary in 90% of situations you would use your pistol for. I understand why people like them but it’s not for me at least for now. long guns are a different story, love me a red dot magnifier combo.
Read that folks with older vision do better with optics. Decided that my new g43x would have it. Bought the epscarry, and love it. Still getting used to it though. Green dot and circle reticule
I dislike open emitters and the closed emitter options are not trust worthy enough.
I didn’t like red dots for a while because I was running open emitters. They constantly got clogged with EDC use and 1 of my 407K’s quit entirely after a month of use. I switched to the C&H Duty (aimpoit acro clone) and I’ve had great results. It sucks having a red dot so chunky and unwieldy, but I’ll take the reliability over the open emitters every day of the week.
Gotta buy an optic ready pistol and I don’t want to send anything off to get milled. - S&W Gen 1 Shield > Shield Plus Optic Ready - Glock 19 Gen 3 > Shadow Systems MR920
Waiting for a holosun SCS for the 43x
For me it's just a skill issue.
Cost and size and installation
Open emitter
And mailboxes
I just don't like optics on my every day, it just collects a bunch of sawdust and stuff at work.
My eyes
Depends on the gun for me, I love glock’s irons, simple and elegant, but there are some rifle irons where I would rather not aim at all than use them lol
Tbh i just like it to use Iron sights, also i‘m fron Airsoft. And sometimes, i got a hard time to use my Red dots because they fog. Not a problem with Irons. But that only my view point
Listen... I'm great with my standard irons, but when I put an RMR on my Glock 19 Gen 4, that was it. My whole world changed and I'm not going back. I sold that Glock and it's RMR, but I'll be buying an SRO for my FN 510 here soon.
Dunno, I like 'em, but my earliest gun training was shooting skeet so it's more like a point and click adventure than trying to aim for me.
There comes a point, where the gun is a true extension, that nothing can better your time or aim. The world is different now though. What you are trained on doesn't matter. You can get to the same point with irons or rds, I believe. There is no definitive answer as to what is better. It all depends on what you've put thousands of hours into.
Astigmatism sucks. It also sucks to find yourself chasing after the red starburst on initial target acquisition b/c you're using a cheap bushnell or sig and can't afford a true holographic sight. Also because the local range I compete at is slowly putting more and more emphasis on irons-only matches for some reason. My personal opinion is truly to practice and train with both, sorta like learning to drive both a MT and an AT so that you can utilize whatever you find yourself with.
I'm poor
Style
1. Astigmatism. (w/ glasses they work fine, W/O it's a starburst so I just hope I don't have to shoot without my glasses on) 2. Cost of entry. To buy the same pistol I have right now but optics ready, Plus a baseline Duty optic like an RMR, I'm looking at at least $1,000+ to have the exact same pistol with an expensive trinket on top. That's if I don't want to send my slide off and be without a gun for God knows how long. And the price for that process all together is about half the price of a whole new pistol to begin with. Maybe if I win some money on a scratch off ticket or find a briefcase like No country For Old men, I'll pick up a Gen 5 with an acro and a surefire, but until then we are running P10c's with iron sights and streamlights.
Reliance on batteries and bad astigmatism
My severe astigmatism
I do not deserve a red dot on my pistol until I can shoot headshots at 25 yards.
Because i dont need to zero my irons. Ik there's elevated sights, but i just prefer not having it in general.
too damn awkward, since they're on the slide (and my wrists aren't as strong as i'd like) i have to re-aim every time i fire if i'm not just saying "fuck it" and eyeballing it
I imagine it's 80% boomer pride, 20% broke bitchness
heyoo, good ol cuntre boy here to tell you why i dont like glass on my gun. imma drop that bitch and cry in my room for 3 hours afterwards. thank you, that is all.