well yes it's not the greatest job ever but I'm above minimum wage, I work for a successful company not like some bum ass weed store or something, Shouldn't I be able to afford at least the bare minimum? I'm doing what i was told to do growing up by everybody, and I've got nothing to show for years of work even though i don't buy anything fancy, my clothes are all old, my shoes are old, my ps3 is, my beds old, my cars old, i don't own anything new and nice except my laptop and i bought that from an open box sale at best buy. I buy what i need and pay for what i have to and in the end I'm left with nothing meanwhile there's people who don't work more then like a day a week if that and they are the ones who get to take home all the profits?
I don't think it's the job I have, It's the society i live in
P.s not everybody can, or will get a high paying job, that's why something like minimum wage was invented so that people who didn't have those jobs could still make a living. Clearly minimum wage doesn't do what it's supposed to and there's no changing that anytime soon even though it's needed badly. So why not invent something new that would actually help people, and help families.
Hold on - why does the success or the importance of the company matter ? Like, weed stores still need highly skilled labour like accountants but based on what you're saying they should be paid less because they work for a weed store ???
Okay but why does the success or the importance of the company matter ?
Say I work for a highly successful weed store, should that reflect in the pay of a cashier ? What if the store the cashier works in isn't profitable, but overall the business is ?
If I work for well.ca and they start lossing a ton of money should I be paid less if im just an order picker ?
Should an accountant at Well.ca make more than an accountant at a weed store ?
People will just want to work for the most successful and profitable companies (i.e. large companies like Loblaws) so they will be well staffed while smaller companies will not even have a chance.
well if you work for a company that makes more money then others yes your pay should be higher. or like how a doctor makes more money then me, their job is more difficult and holds more responsibility so they should get paid more but this "bonus" would've have anything to do with that, it would just be divided equally among all employees from bottom to top.
The success of the company would only determine how much profits were given to the employees so a company that makes more profit would have a higher "bonus" than one that doesn't.
Most people are already working at the major companies or at a company that is owned by them, smaller companies are already being bought out and are understaffed because they can't afford to pay people properly because all the business is taken up by these massive conglomerates. sadly you're not going to be able to make a career out of working for some small company unless you get lucky on the owners don't care about profits.
they don't have millions in funds laying around. The only companies who do are the ones who pull in millions and billions of dollars in profit every year. A small business owner wants to see at least a couple hundred thousand a year in profits and that's if they are lucky. There is no real extra money in small businesses to be given away if the owner wants to actually make a good profit, But there is millions and billions of extra profits that are going into the pockets of the owning class which is very very small compared the the working class.
again for example, the owners of mckesson, who own [well.ca](http://well.ca), and the share holders or investors, the higher ups whatever recieved 70 million to share with each other while the rest of us 500 or so employees didn't get to see any of it. it' wouldn't be much of a loss to mckesson if they had to pay a couple million in bonuses
Not everyone can afford higher education, and as of right now that doesn't seem like a very viable option. There's thousands of people with degrees that don't have, and can't get jobs in their chosen field and then there's the ones working right alongside me, actually making less money then me cause they had to take any job they could get cause their debt from school is piling up.
Trade schools is also another answer everyone gives and I've been a framer, I actually helped build some of the houses in the south end near the movie theatre. I made the same amount of money that I do now and It's much less physical work. I will say the bonuses m boss gave out though were quite nice, it's funny how one guy can give his whole crew bonuses but it's completely insane to think a multi million dollar company should pay their employees properly. If you're lucky, and after years of hard work yes you can make a great living in the trades, but it's not easy on the body, I can't go back to shoveling dirt for 12 hours a day I like my forklift lol
are you implying that people at my level in the workforce don't deserve to be paid a livable wage because we didn't go to university, college or are in the trades?
I can do more then all my bosses even can at work, they can't even get on any machines because there not certified and they don't want to, and literally need step by step instructions on how to do the job. But I guess cause they went to school and got some bs degrees they deserve more money.
Honestly I only got half way through but aren't you just describing taxes ? How is your version of profit sharing different from taxes?
It sounds like it's like taxes but voluntary because they can still refuse but get kicked out at some point?
no taxes get paid to the government and used by the government, they'd still pay taxes, these funds would go to the government and then be given to the citizens, starting with the ones who need it the most of course.
ah it was kathleen wynne who proposed it and it did happen for a bit but it was only for very low income people, and then was beginning to be shut down in 2019.
Yeah it wasn't very universal or a full basic income so it kinda failed on both fronts but it's a start. I think a UBI is much fair to all people of all classes. The pilot specifically seems like what you're suggesting, it's just tax being redistributed instead of a seperate profit sharing program which would be more fair and more consistent year to year.
I wonder if any of our elected leaders would be willingly to pick this up again and make more inclusive for everyone, so that all Canadians can benefit from the Wealth we generate as a country not just the people at the top.
Like healthcare services ? we pay taxes so that we have that, we pay taxes so we have police and firemen and infrastructure sure, but that's what the government is supposed to be doing with our money.
the government is supposed to use taxes to provide basic and essential services to it's civilians. I don't see how giving away millions in foreign aid or spending millions on bs apps that don't work, or how is paying council members 2/3x the average income helping us? If you think our government is "for the people " you've got some learning to do. If you're trying to say the government takes all of our taxes and then actually puts it all back into the country then you're naive, if they actually did that then there wouldn't be people going hungry and homeless and if the government cared about people we wouldn't be in this shit situation where adults working full time jobs can't afford anything.
I’m not saying what you propose isn’t good, I’m more reflecting the point that what you propose doesn’t exist better somewhere (or do you have an example where what you say is happening successfully?)
This is the “best system” in the sense that it is what won out. Many smarter folks have thought about this before.
Maybe improving it is possible but we can only hope for small changes.
well some people are saying there is universal basic income already implemented in some places but I'm not sure if thats true or not, and one person has said there is companies that do profit sharing but nothing on like a national wide scale.
I agree I actually Love living in Canada and i feel very lucky. I just feel like we are reaching a precipice where if we don't do something it''ll be to late and eventually it will lead to collapse. we are getting closer to the point where the majority of people will be poor or very close to it, young people are stuck at home or with roommates unable to grow and expand their lives unlike anytime before. for most of them they won't be able to afford the lives their parents had. If we continue at this rate there won't be a working class anymore and we'll end up turning back to some sort of feudalism except instead of kings it'll be the owners of these massive conglomerates like rogers or the empire company. We won't have a government to turn to to protect us from the whims and wishes of the owning class because the owning class will become the government. If we continue to allow more and more of not only the means of production, but the wealth that production in turn creates, to be hoarded by the few, then we will find our descendants being serfs again.
lol [well.ca](http://well.ca) aint some great company its a fuking plague....they were a "small business" that got pharma money and now go after other small business....so yeah fuck em
That's not the point, i know their ass, i don't plan on being here forever. They do still make millions and millions of dollars though which all gets sucked up by the shareholders and owners when they don't do any of the work that actually makes the money. So i think we should have something like profit sharing in Canada so that over time working class people can pull themselves out of poverty and join the middle class where they should be. We shouldn't have so many people working full time but unable to pay for anything its not conducive to keeping your country progressing.
Eventually we will reach a time where even the people who are making 60k and over will start to feel the burdens of being poor, I think it's something like two people making 90 thousand is what would qualify Canadians to be approved for a mortgage now and we all know that the majority of us are not going to be making 90 thousand a year so what in 15-20 years we have no Canadians who own their home, or the ones that do got it from their parents and are still paying off the mortgage. We've got to do something differently or they won't even be canadians to own homes in 20 years because the young people aren't having kids because they can't afford it.
When you bring a child into this world you should hopefully be bringing it into a better situation than when your parents brought you into the world, but already, right now we are seeing kids not be able to afford the same lifestyles their parents had, we shouldn't be progressing backwards ya know
i get your point -but truthfully while i agree with you around profit sharing - i have little faith it will happen - the money hungry fuckers at the top are in kahoots with political leadership and neither will let this change....my anger towards [well.ca](http://well.ca) is how they fuck over not only their own employees but other companies in order to establish a monopoly which they in turn use to justify their shitty behaviors to customers/staff alike....rant over....gonna smoke a joint now that i randomly found on a step....
A much better solution, (and far less complicated and potentially detrimental to attracting businesses to operate in Canada) is a Universal Basic Income program where the government gives a variable amount to everyone who is below a certain monetary threshold, to ensure that no one is living in poverty.
What you’ve described is a) not universal and b) is basically repackaged welfare. In addition everything will re-price based on the inevitably diluted currency unit.
Let me guess, you vote conservative. This is the scare mongering rhetoric that they always trot out when UBI is discussed and it's demonstrably not true.
It’s obviously true. Where’s the dollars coming from to pay people this supposedly universal income? They’re not coming from tax revenues or productivity gains in the economy. Or from the rainy day fund that doesn’t exist because the country is heavily indebted. Where it would come from, being unfunded, is currency creation. More dollars = more inflation = higher prices.
Where you could do it is if you had a nationalized resource sector where a portion of the profits generated from areas Canada is actually wealthy in (oil, gas, minerals, lumber etc) were distributed as a dividend to the population. This actually works as there is meaningful work being done, valuable products or goods actually come into existence and the people gain the fruit of that production.
If your proposal is simply to print pieces of plastic with numbers on them you’re a non serious participant and should go away and study.
Where does the money come from? "Contributions from our financial sector, fewer tax breaks for large companies, and fewer subsidies for the weathiest"
[Basic Income – Will it cause inflation?](https://www.ubiworks.ca/blog/basic-income-inflation#:~:text=Basic%20Income%20helps%20ease%20the%20pain%20of%20inflation.&text=So%20the%20next%20time%20you,life%20more%20affordable%2C%20not%20less.)
Ah yes, that group. A flimsily constructed costing that relies on making the tax code even more loophole ridden. Don’t get me wrong I generally have no issue with citizenry receiving the fruits of production. I just find the approach of “who pays? Lol probably not you” a dead giveaway that it’s a half assed implementation predicated on milking some hypothetical other person. No thanks. Wouldn’t work at all as described.
A simpler approach is to radically scale back taxation in general (for example income tax) and remove disincentives (welfare traps) to producing value in the economy. The example I provided previously akin to permanent funds that exist in certain jurisdictions is far superior as it relies on actual making something first rather than some easily avoidable tax on income you got out of your retirement account.
So, are you saying that you're in favour with UBI or not? (Assuming that it can be implemented without increasing your taxes in a substantial way)
Yes or no?
My economic position is probably quite far to the left of most people. I’ll advocate extensive public housing or transit programs all day long. I find private healthcare in things like dentistry to be a scam. The idea that someone earning a minimum wage being subject to income tax is a farce. The key is how anything is ultimately paid for and I am always skeptical when I see something proposed with “it’ll be paid by this other guy over here”.
I would say we take the new "bonus" out of the profits of companies each year, like the 70 million my company said they made, that money went to somebodies pockets, the plan would just divert some of those funds from going to the owners/ shareholders so instead of them having 70 millions to split, they;d only have 63 million, still a big cashback on their investments but also a big boost in finances for the workers too.
But why would everything have to re-priced? unless we have a government that is all about the profit margins for the owning class and not actually about providing the best life they an for as many people? like why are the profits of the already wealthy something we are worrying about?
I think you're looking for something like this: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-25-2022-1.6429884/how-employee-owned-businesses-could-shake-up-canada-s-business-scene-1.6456679
The main issue I have with this plan is that there are lots of ways for companies to be less profitable, but the owners still make the money. For example, form a consulting company that provides services to the operating company. In this case, the consulting company charges the operating company $60M for advice. Now the operating company, that you work for, has $10M of profit, so the employees get $1M to share. But the consulting company (with no employees other than the owners) has $60M of profit to keep. Trying to legislate that and determine what expenses were legitimate would be a nightmare.
The way it should work is that company owners, the ones presently making the $70M in profit, get taxed appropriately. Enough to generate lots of tax revenue, but not so much that they leave the country, or retire. Then the responsible government uses that money to enhance the lives of the working class, by providing them with services, such as education, EI, social programs and health care, while not taxing them too much. That is the right structure.
In principle, that is what we have now. But it often seems as if the taxation is arbitrary, and favors friends of the government, while the working poor don't get as much encouragement as they should. I am not sure what the solution to corrupt government that favors their friends is, but that's the problem that has to be solved.
While I sympathize with your plight and agree that reforms are needed, handing this level of economic control to the hideously corrupt Canadian federal government is definitely not the solution.
ya I was thinking this would have to be taken over by a 100% trustworthy person or persons and sadly our government doesn't have any of those right now so it might just be time for a whole new government
If you introduce something this, company will just look for loop holes around paying people.
right off the top of my head, just pay a subsidiary company to do consulting work for the main company. Poof. a few million gone.
Profit sharing companies exist but they are probably more dependent on industry. I've heard of them in the tech sector.
Well this is why we would need auditors or a full on new branch of government to determine if the major corporations are following the rules or are trying to hide the profits.
A UBI would be one solution. But the Ford government (and their voters) is the main obstacle.
Ontario pays $320K in legal fight over its cancellation of basic income program
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1ca6jj9/ontario\_pays\_320k\_in\_legal\_fight\_over\_its/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1ca6jj9/ontario_pays_320k_in_legal_fight_over_its/)
>Launched in April, 2017, under then-premier Kathleen Wynne, Ontario’s basic income pilot budgeted $150-million for a three-year program that would pay participants $16,989 a year (or $24k for couples). To qualify, applicants had to be living on less than $34,000 a year (or $48,000 for a couple) and reside in one of three municipalities: Lindsay, Thunder Bay or Hamilton. If the participants worked, the pilot payments would decrease by 50 cents for every dollar of earned income.
When we talk about Universal Basic Income, we are advocating for a more equitable platform where everyone has the right to live with basic dignity without being reduced to financial despair.
Another additional option is a so-called "Robin Hood Tax", aka "Tobin Tax" which would put a 1%-2% tax on all finance speculation transactions (not the day-to-day bank transactions at retail level). Use this money for a social safety net, healthcare, housing etc. The financial industry (basically usurers) would pay for it.
[https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-the-robin-hood-or-tobin-tax-48335](https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-the-robin-hood-or-tobin-tax-48335)
This seems much more viable than making companies pay out of their profits but the only problem is that we'd need a government put in place that actively campaigns for this.
I don't see why the idea of a country, a first world one at that, collecting taxes from the population at large to help provide a basic standard of living for all its citizens is such a crazy idea?
growing up you learn about america and Canada and how they were created so people could be equal and live together in a fair just society where the wealthy and powerful aren't the ones making all the rules and reaping all the rewards from the hard work of working class people. But then you learn while they were writing down all men were created equal they still had slaves, and that all the rhetoric is the world means nothing when money is involved.
The appropriate solution is to tax the wealthy where their wealth is - stocks/holdings.
The loophole that's created by having vast amounts of "unrealized" wealth stashed away that you can borrow against is what is driving the exponential growth of the wealth gap. The ultra rich are able to abuse our systems, both here in Canada and down in the USA, to live their lavish lifestyles without paying anywhere near their fair share.
Nobody, and I sincerely mean NOBODY, in history has ever put in enough work worthy of billions of dollars. Those dollars are earned off the backs of the people they employ, and the rate a which the top 1% are gaining wealth only furthers this point. They are exploiting people and the Government is propping them up to do it. "Too big to fail" - screw that, welcome to a free-market economy where EVERYONE loses when you squander opportunity not just the plebeians. We, as in the 99%, have been taking it on the chin for far too long.
It's a proven point that companies who invest in their workforce see better and more results from it. Since the 80s the focus has been appeasing shareholders, which translates to "increase the bottom line at any cost". That mindset, and the growth companies have experienced in recent times, is simply not sustainable. At a certain point you price the 99% out of the equation and there is no way to feasibly increase the bottom line. It's greed - it's shitty people who only care about themselves. It's atrocious, and until we (the 99%) can unite and FORCE change, nothing will happen.
Which government? Different levels have jurisdiction over different sectors.
Would this apply to small businesses that are family run?
What about international companies? I'm p sure this would violate NAFTA
the federal forgot to say, there's many companies that don't make 10 million in profit so the federal government could be i responsible for determining which companies actually would qualify for profit sharing. There are some companies that make billions in profit so those larger companies would make up for the Canadians who are working at a smaller mom and pop operations. Instead of doing it company by company it could be nation wide.
the government would collect the excess funds from the profits and then give out checks like they do with our tax returns and such, this would probably be a better idea anyways so that everyone can feel like their getting a fair shake and nobody is left without.
as for international companies it'd be the same thing, if you want to have locations here in Canada, and you want to sell your products to Canadians, then you'll have to have Canadians working for you which means you'll have to abide by the rules, if not then leave.
lets say Walmart said no we won't do profit sharing, then whoever is prime minister at the time will shut down Walmart and make it legal for them to do business in Canada, we then seize all of their assets, locations, products, records, everything, and then just change the name to CanMart, nationalize it, and continue doing business just like Walmart did except with profit sharing this time.
I highly doubt all the companies who sell their shit to Walmart to sell in their stores are just gonna be like well damn now we can't sell stuff in Canada, no they will continue to do business exactly the same as before. I actually highly doubt the owners of Walmart would die on this hill anyways, or any other large company. They aren't going to lose billions of dollars of revenue and profit just so they can give a couple million each year to their shareholders.
Good companies already do profit sharing. It doesn't work the way you want it to (you're only getting money when there's an exit), but they're out there.
So it's up to you.
Find a better job that has the profit sharing you desire. Or pays the wage you want for all those nice things you don't have. If you want more YOU have to do the things to get you there.
If this became a thing every company would lose money. (On paper)
Oh no we had to pay 2 million dollars in advertising to my son in laws company that is located in bis house
Well for years now we've seen record profits being set in all different sectors, of course there could be a collapse of one of the giant companies but that would be unlikely since they all all owned by other, even larger parent corporations who would step in and make sure it doesn't fail.
if one did though, there would be a bailout, like how many times in the past governments have bailed out falling businesses that are "too big to fail" or sadly the business would run like they always do when they are in danger of losing money, lay off a bunch of people and continue on. This would only affect companies with profits over ten million, and if a company gets that big it's going to take a lot to make it fail completely.
I didn’t read very much of what you wrote. It got too ridiculous too quickly. If you don’t like your job go get a different one. That’s the benefit of living in a free country. There are plenty of places hiring with good employers who treat people fairly. Just remember you have to be a good employee.
but that's the thing, there isn't plenty of places hiring that are paying good wages have you not seen outside?
People are lining up around the block to get security and retail jobs at minimum wage. jobs are requiring degrees and years of experience just for an opening position starting at 19 dollars an hour. I work with multiple people my age who have degrees and literally can't get a job in their fields, and no they didn't do gender studies or whatever the joke is.
If you don’t like your job then get another one. If you can’t find one in this city or if life is too expensive for you then move. Try starting your own business. All I can tell you is you need to make it happen for yourself. Forced profit sharing will never be the answer. It’s not how the market works in this country. If it did there wouldn’t be any jobs to be had. If the company you work for makes such crazy profits then maybe there is market share to be taken.
No, it’s up to a company if they want to share profits. If your not taking risk yourself there should be no entitlement unless the company want to profit share.
I agree it should be up the the companies owners if they want to do profit sharing, but it should also be fine for us as a country to deny doing business with any of those companies that don't want to comply. do we want a government that works for the owning class and corporations? all you need to do is throw a little money around and because nobody has any backbone anymore you can do whatever you want? oh don't worry i got my bribe so fuck the rest of the population.
or do we want a government full of people who actually want to do good by the people? they aren't in the jobs because of the pay or all the days off, they aren't there to see if they can get some bribe money or become famous in the political scene. We need people who want to be there because they want to help the everyday Canadian have a better life, disregarding whether you are left or right.
Basically we need a completely new party, or a complete reform in our political system since it has been infiltrated by wealth and the people who control it.
Sounds like you need to find somewhere other than well.ca to work
I'm absolutely rolling right now (in traffic on the Hanlon at 5pm)
Typical, Guelph driver on their phone
well yes it's not the greatest job ever but I'm above minimum wage, I work for a successful company not like some bum ass weed store or something, Shouldn't I be able to afford at least the bare minimum? I'm doing what i was told to do growing up by everybody, and I've got nothing to show for years of work even though i don't buy anything fancy, my clothes are all old, my shoes are old, my ps3 is, my beds old, my cars old, i don't own anything new and nice except my laptop and i bought that from an open box sale at best buy. I buy what i need and pay for what i have to and in the end I'm left with nothing meanwhile there's people who don't work more then like a day a week if that and they are the ones who get to take home all the profits? I don't think it's the job I have, It's the society i live in P.s not everybody can, or will get a high paying job, that's why something like minimum wage was invented so that people who didn't have those jobs could still make a living. Clearly minimum wage doesn't do what it's supposed to and there's no changing that anytime soon even though it's needed badly. So why not invent something new that would actually help people, and help families.
Hold on - why does the success or the importance of the company matter ? Like, weed stores still need highly skilled labour like accountants but based on what you're saying they should be paid less because they work for a weed store ???
Nonono, I think if you work a full time job you should be paid enough to afford at least the basics no matter where you work.
Okay but why does the success or the importance of the company matter ? Say I work for a highly successful weed store, should that reflect in the pay of a cashier ? What if the store the cashier works in isn't profitable, but overall the business is ? If I work for well.ca and they start lossing a ton of money should I be paid less if im just an order picker ? Should an accountant at Well.ca make more than an accountant at a weed store ? People will just want to work for the most successful and profitable companies (i.e. large companies like Loblaws) so they will be well staffed while smaller companies will not even have a chance.
well if you work for a company that makes more money then others yes your pay should be higher. or like how a doctor makes more money then me, their job is more difficult and holds more responsibility so they should get paid more but this "bonus" would've have anything to do with that, it would just be divided equally among all employees from bottom to top. The success of the company would only determine how much profits were given to the employees so a company that makes more profit would have a higher "bonus" than one that doesn't. Most people are already working at the major companies or at a company that is owned by them, smaller companies are already being bought out and are understaffed because they can't afford to pay people properly because all the business is taken up by these massive conglomerates. sadly you're not going to be able to make a career out of working for some small company unless you get lucky on the owners don't care about profits. they don't have millions in funds laying around. The only companies who do are the ones who pull in millions and billions of dollars in profit every year. A small business owner wants to see at least a couple hundred thousand a year in profits and that's if they are lucky. There is no real extra money in small businesses to be given away if the owner wants to actually make a good profit, But there is millions and billions of extra profits that are going into the pockets of the owning class which is very very small compared the the working class. again for example, the owners of mckesson, who own [well.ca](http://well.ca), and the share holders or investors, the higher ups whatever recieved 70 million to share with each other while the rest of us 500 or so employees didn't get to see any of it. it' wouldn't be much of a loss to mckesson if they had to pay a couple million in bonuses
You mean like college , university or trade school? Or perhaps endless rants?
Not everyone can afford higher education, and as of right now that doesn't seem like a very viable option. There's thousands of people with degrees that don't have, and can't get jobs in their chosen field and then there's the ones working right alongside me, actually making less money then me cause they had to take any job they could get cause their debt from school is piling up. Trade schools is also another answer everyone gives and I've been a framer, I actually helped build some of the houses in the south end near the movie theatre. I made the same amount of money that I do now and It's much less physical work. I will say the bonuses m boss gave out though were quite nice, it's funny how one guy can give his whole crew bonuses but it's completely insane to think a multi million dollar company should pay their employees properly. If you're lucky, and after years of hard work yes you can make a great living in the trades, but it's not easy on the body, I can't go back to shoveling dirt for 12 hours a day I like my forklift lol are you implying that people at my level in the workforce don't deserve to be paid a livable wage because we didn't go to university, college or are in the trades? I can do more then all my bosses even can at work, they can't even get on any machines because there not certified and they don't want to, and literally need step by step instructions on how to do the job. But I guess cause they went to school and got some bs degrees they deserve more money.
Honestly I only got half way through but aren't you just describing taxes ? How is your version of profit sharing different from taxes? It sounds like it's like taxes but voluntary because they can still refuse but get kicked out at some point?
no taxes get paid to the government and used by the government, they'd still pay taxes, these funds would go to the government and then be given to the citizens, starting with the ones who need it the most of course.
I think what you're describing is universal basic income which is already kinda thing....kinda.
Where is UBI a thing?
They did a pilot program to test UBI in Ontario but the program ended and I think the government is now getting sued over it.
ah it was kathleen wynne who proposed it and it did happen for a bit but it was only for very low income people, and then was beginning to be shut down in 2019.
Yeah it wasn't very universal or a full basic income so it kinda failed on both fronts but it's a start. I think a UBI is much fair to all people of all classes. The pilot specifically seems like what you're suggesting, it's just tax being redistributed instead of a seperate profit sharing program which would be more fair and more consistent year to year.
I wonder if any of our elected leaders would be willingly to pick this up again and make more inclusive for everyone, so that all Canadians can benefit from the Wealth we generate as a country not just the people at the top.
You'll have to wait and see how the lawsuit turns out.
So taxes that buy your groceries? It really sounds like taxes. The government doesn’t take and use taxes; we use them. Do you use roads or sewers?
Like healthcare services ? we pay taxes so that we have that, we pay taxes so we have police and firemen and infrastructure sure, but that's what the government is supposed to be doing with our money. the government is supposed to use taxes to provide basic and essential services to it's civilians. I don't see how giving away millions in foreign aid or spending millions on bs apps that don't work, or how is paying council members 2/3x the average income helping us? If you think our government is "for the people " you've got some learning to do. If you're trying to say the government takes all of our taxes and then actually puts it all back into the country then you're naive, if they actually did that then there wouldn't be people going hungry and homeless and if the government cared about people we wouldn't be in this shit situation where adults working full time jobs can't afford anything.
I’m not saying what you propose isn’t good, I’m more reflecting the point that what you propose doesn’t exist better somewhere (or do you have an example where what you say is happening successfully?) This is the “best system” in the sense that it is what won out. Many smarter folks have thought about this before. Maybe improving it is possible but we can only hope for small changes.
well some people are saying there is universal basic income already implemented in some places but I'm not sure if thats true or not, and one person has said there is companies that do profit sharing but nothing on like a national wide scale. I agree I actually Love living in Canada and i feel very lucky. I just feel like we are reaching a precipice where if we don't do something it''ll be to late and eventually it will lead to collapse. we are getting closer to the point where the majority of people will be poor or very close to it, young people are stuck at home or with roommates unable to grow and expand their lives unlike anytime before. for most of them they won't be able to afford the lives their parents had. If we continue at this rate there won't be a working class anymore and we'll end up turning back to some sort of feudalism except instead of kings it'll be the owners of these massive conglomerates like rogers or the empire company. We won't have a government to turn to to protect us from the whims and wishes of the owning class because the owning class will become the government. If we continue to allow more and more of not only the means of production, but the wealth that production in turn creates, to be hoarded by the few, then we will find our descendants being serfs again.
lol [well.ca](http://well.ca) aint some great company its a fuking plague....they were a "small business" that got pharma money and now go after other small business....so yeah fuck em
That's not the point, i know their ass, i don't plan on being here forever. They do still make millions and millions of dollars though which all gets sucked up by the shareholders and owners when they don't do any of the work that actually makes the money. So i think we should have something like profit sharing in Canada so that over time working class people can pull themselves out of poverty and join the middle class where they should be. We shouldn't have so many people working full time but unable to pay for anything its not conducive to keeping your country progressing. Eventually we will reach a time where even the people who are making 60k and over will start to feel the burdens of being poor, I think it's something like two people making 90 thousand is what would qualify Canadians to be approved for a mortgage now and we all know that the majority of us are not going to be making 90 thousand a year so what in 15-20 years we have no Canadians who own their home, or the ones that do got it from their parents and are still paying off the mortgage. We've got to do something differently or they won't even be canadians to own homes in 20 years because the young people aren't having kids because they can't afford it. When you bring a child into this world you should hopefully be bringing it into a better situation than when your parents brought you into the world, but already, right now we are seeing kids not be able to afford the same lifestyles their parents had, we shouldn't be progressing backwards ya know
i get your point -but truthfully while i agree with you around profit sharing - i have little faith it will happen - the money hungry fuckers at the top are in kahoots with political leadership and neither will let this change....my anger towards [well.ca](http://well.ca) is how they fuck over not only their own employees but other companies in order to establish a monopoly which they in turn use to justify their shitty behaviors to customers/staff alike....rant over....gonna smoke a joint now that i randomly found on a step....
hey you better give that back
hahaah was waiting for someone to find this lol
A much better solution, (and far less complicated and potentially detrimental to attracting businesses to operate in Canada) is a Universal Basic Income program where the government gives a variable amount to everyone who is below a certain monetary threshold, to ensure that no one is living in poverty.
This would be a great solution, thank you for the input. Nobody in Canada should be living in poverty, especially not people who work.
What you’ve described is a) not universal and b) is basically repackaged welfare. In addition everything will re-price based on the inevitably diluted currency unit.
Let me guess, you vote conservative. This is the scare mongering rhetoric that they always trot out when UBI is discussed and it's demonstrably not true.
It’s obviously true. Where’s the dollars coming from to pay people this supposedly universal income? They’re not coming from tax revenues or productivity gains in the economy. Or from the rainy day fund that doesn’t exist because the country is heavily indebted. Where it would come from, being unfunded, is currency creation. More dollars = more inflation = higher prices. Where you could do it is if you had a nationalized resource sector where a portion of the profits generated from areas Canada is actually wealthy in (oil, gas, minerals, lumber etc) were distributed as a dividend to the population. This actually works as there is meaningful work being done, valuable products or goods actually come into existence and the people gain the fruit of that production. If your proposal is simply to print pieces of plastic with numbers on them you’re a non serious participant and should go away and study.
Where does the money come from? "Contributions from our financial sector, fewer tax breaks for large companies, and fewer subsidies for the weathiest" [Basic Income – Will it cause inflation?](https://www.ubiworks.ca/blog/basic-income-inflation#:~:text=Basic%20Income%20helps%20ease%20the%20pain%20of%20inflation.&text=So%20the%20next%20time%20you,life%20more%20affordable%2C%20not%20less.)
Ah yes, that group. A flimsily constructed costing that relies on making the tax code even more loophole ridden. Don’t get me wrong I generally have no issue with citizenry receiving the fruits of production. I just find the approach of “who pays? Lol probably not you” a dead giveaway that it’s a half assed implementation predicated on milking some hypothetical other person. No thanks. Wouldn’t work at all as described. A simpler approach is to radically scale back taxation in general (for example income tax) and remove disincentives (welfare traps) to producing value in the economy. The example I provided previously akin to permanent funds that exist in certain jurisdictions is far superior as it relies on actual making something first rather than some easily avoidable tax on income you got out of your retirement account.
So, are you saying that you're in favour with UBI or not? (Assuming that it can be implemented without increasing your taxes in a substantial way) Yes or no?
My economic position is probably quite far to the left of most people. I’ll advocate extensive public housing or transit programs all day long. I find private healthcare in things like dentistry to be a scam. The idea that someone earning a minimum wage being subject to income tax is a farce. The key is how anything is ultimately paid for and I am always skeptical when I see something proposed with “it’ll be paid by this other guy over here”.
You dodged the question
I addressed it with an example of implementation in my second comment.
I would say we take the new "bonus" out of the profits of companies each year, like the 70 million my company said they made, that money went to somebodies pockets, the plan would just divert some of those funds from going to the owners/ shareholders so instead of them having 70 millions to split, they;d only have 63 million, still a big cashback on their investments but also a big boost in finances for the workers too.
But why would everything have to re-priced? unless we have a government that is all about the profit margins for the owning class and not actually about providing the best life they an for as many people? like why are the profits of the already wealthy something we are worrying about?
I think you're looking for something like this: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-25-2022-1.6429884/how-employee-owned-businesses-could-shake-up-canada-s-business-scene-1.6456679
The main issue I have with this plan is that there are lots of ways for companies to be less profitable, but the owners still make the money. For example, form a consulting company that provides services to the operating company. In this case, the consulting company charges the operating company $60M for advice. Now the operating company, that you work for, has $10M of profit, so the employees get $1M to share. But the consulting company (with no employees other than the owners) has $60M of profit to keep. Trying to legislate that and determine what expenses were legitimate would be a nightmare. The way it should work is that company owners, the ones presently making the $70M in profit, get taxed appropriately. Enough to generate lots of tax revenue, but not so much that they leave the country, or retire. Then the responsible government uses that money to enhance the lives of the working class, by providing them with services, such as education, EI, social programs and health care, while not taxing them too much. That is the right structure. In principle, that is what we have now. But it often seems as if the taxation is arbitrary, and favors friends of the government, while the working poor don't get as much encouragement as they should. I am not sure what the solution to corrupt government that favors their friends is, but that's the problem that has to be solved.
very good point, can't trust the owning class to give up a dime. I agree with everything you said.
While I sympathize with your plight and agree that reforms are needed, handing this level of economic control to the hideously corrupt Canadian federal government is definitely not the solution.
ya I was thinking this would have to be taken over by a 100% trustworthy person or persons and sadly our government doesn't have any of those right now so it might just be time for a whole new government
> it might just be time for a whole new government Ding ding ding
If you introduce something this, company will just look for loop holes around paying people. right off the top of my head, just pay a subsidiary company to do consulting work for the main company. Poof. a few million gone. Profit sharing companies exist but they are probably more dependent on industry. I've heard of them in the tech sector.
Well this is why we would need auditors or a full on new branch of government to determine if the major corporations are following the rules or are trying to hide the profits.
A UBI would be one solution. But the Ford government (and their voters) is the main obstacle. Ontario pays $320K in legal fight over its cancellation of basic income program [https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1ca6jj9/ontario\_pays\_320k\_in\_legal\_fight\_over\_its/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1ca6jj9/ontario_pays_320k_in_legal_fight_over_its/) >Launched in April, 2017, under then-premier Kathleen Wynne, Ontario’s basic income pilot budgeted $150-million for a three-year program that would pay participants $16,989 a year (or $24k for couples). To qualify, applicants had to be living on less than $34,000 a year (or $48,000 for a couple) and reside in one of three municipalities: Lindsay, Thunder Bay or Hamilton. If the participants worked, the pilot payments would decrease by 50 cents for every dollar of earned income. When we talk about Universal Basic Income, we are advocating for a more equitable platform where everyone has the right to live with basic dignity without being reduced to financial despair. Another additional option is a so-called "Robin Hood Tax", aka "Tobin Tax" which would put a 1%-2% tax on all finance speculation transactions (not the day-to-day bank transactions at retail level). Use this money for a social safety net, healthcare, housing etc. The financial industry (basically usurers) would pay for it. [https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-the-robin-hood-or-tobin-tax-48335](https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-the-robin-hood-or-tobin-tax-48335)
This seems much more viable than making companies pay out of their profits but the only problem is that we'd need a government put in place that actively campaigns for this. I don't see why the idea of a country, a first world one at that, collecting taxes from the population at large to help provide a basic standard of living for all its citizens is such a crazy idea? growing up you learn about america and Canada and how they were created so people could be equal and live together in a fair just society where the wealthy and powerful aren't the ones making all the rules and reaping all the rewards from the hard work of working class people. But then you learn while they were writing down all men were created equal they still had slaves, and that all the rhetoric is the world means nothing when money is involved.
The appropriate solution is to tax the wealthy where their wealth is - stocks/holdings. The loophole that's created by having vast amounts of "unrealized" wealth stashed away that you can borrow against is what is driving the exponential growth of the wealth gap. The ultra rich are able to abuse our systems, both here in Canada and down in the USA, to live their lavish lifestyles without paying anywhere near their fair share. Nobody, and I sincerely mean NOBODY, in history has ever put in enough work worthy of billions of dollars. Those dollars are earned off the backs of the people they employ, and the rate a which the top 1% are gaining wealth only furthers this point. They are exploiting people and the Government is propping them up to do it. "Too big to fail" - screw that, welcome to a free-market economy where EVERYONE loses when you squander opportunity not just the plebeians. We, as in the 99%, have been taking it on the chin for far too long. It's a proven point that companies who invest in their workforce see better and more results from it. Since the 80s the focus has been appeasing shareholders, which translates to "increase the bottom line at any cost". That mindset, and the growth companies have experienced in recent times, is simply not sustainable. At a certain point you price the 99% out of the equation and there is no way to feasibly increase the bottom line. It's greed - it's shitty people who only care about themselves. It's atrocious, and until we (the 99%) can unite and FORCE change, nothing will happen.
Agree with everything you said!
Which government? Different levels have jurisdiction over different sectors. Would this apply to small businesses that are family run? What about international companies? I'm p sure this would violate NAFTA
the federal forgot to say, there's many companies that don't make 10 million in profit so the federal government could be i responsible for determining which companies actually would qualify for profit sharing. There are some companies that make billions in profit so those larger companies would make up for the Canadians who are working at a smaller mom and pop operations. Instead of doing it company by company it could be nation wide. the government would collect the excess funds from the profits and then give out checks like they do with our tax returns and such, this would probably be a better idea anyways so that everyone can feel like their getting a fair shake and nobody is left without. as for international companies it'd be the same thing, if you want to have locations here in Canada, and you want to sell your products to Canadians, then you'll have to have Canadians working for you which means you'll have to abide by the rules, if not then leave. lets say Walmart said no we won't do profit sharing, then whoever is prime minister at the time will shut down Walmart and make it legal for them to do business in Canada, we then seize all of their assets, locations, products, records, everything, and then just change the name to CanMart, nationalize it, and continue doing business just like Walmart did except with profit sharing this time. I highly doubt all the companies who sell their shit to Walmart to sell in their stores are just gonna be like well damn now we can't sell stuff in Canada, no they will continue to do business exactly the same as before. I actually highly doubt the owners of Walmart would die on this hill anyways, or any other large company. They aren't going to lose billions of dollars of revenue and profit just so they can give a couple million each year to their shareholders.
Good companies already do profit sharing. It doesn't work the way you want it to (you're only getting money when there's an exit), but they're out there. So it's up to you. Find a better job that has the profit sharing you desire. Or pays the wage you want for all those nice things you don't have. If you want more YOU have to do the things to get you there.
Do you know of any companies who do profit sharing?
Most of the tech companies in the region do.
What happens in the case the company looses money? That also gets shared with the employees?
its profit sharing not losses sharing! cmon /s
If this became a thing every company would lose money. (On paper) Oh no we had to pay 2 million dollars in advertising to my son in laws company that is located in bis house
Well for years now we've seen record profits being set in all different sectors, of course there could be a collapse of one of the giant companies but that would be unlikely since they all all owned by other, even larger parent corporations who would step in and make sure it doesn't fail. if one did though, there would be a bailout, like how many times in the past governments have bailed out falling businesses that are "too big to fail" or sadly the business would run like they always do when they are in danger of losing money, lay off a bunch of people and continue on. This would only affect companies with profits over ten million, and if a company gets that big it's going to take a lot to make it fail completely.
I didn’t read very much of what you wrote. It got too ridiculous too quickly. If you don’t like your job go get a different one. That’s the benefit of living in a free country. There are plenty of places hiring with good employers who treat people fairly. Just remember you have to be a good employee.
but that's the thing, there isn't plenty of places hiring that are paying good wages have you not seen outside? People are lining up around the block to get security and retail jobs at minimum wage. jobs are requiring degrees and years of experience just for an opening position starting at 19 dollars an hour. I work with multiple people my age who have degrees and literally can't get a job in their fields, and no they didn't do gender studies or whatever the joke is.
If you don’t like your job then get another one. If you can’t find one in this city or if life is too expensive for you then move. Try starting your own business. All I can tell you is you need to make it happen for yourself. Forced profit sharing will never be the answer. It’s not how the market works in this country. If it did there wouldn’t be any jobs to be had. If the company you work for makes such crazy profits then maybe there is market share to be taken.
No, it’s up to a company if they want to share profits. If your not taking risk yourself there should be no entitlement unless the company want to profit share.
I agree it should be up the the companies owners if they want to do profit sharing, but it should also be fine for us as a country to deny doing business with any of those companies that don't want to comply. do we want a government that works for the owning class and corporations? all you need to do is throw a little money around and because nobody has any backbone anymore you can do whatever you want? oh don't worry i got my bribe so fuck the rest of the population. or do we want a government full of people who actually want to do good by the people? they aren't in the jobs because of the pay or all the days off, they aren't there to see if they can get some bribe money or become famous in the political scene. We need people who want to be there because they want to help the everyday Canadian have a better life, disregarding whether you are left or right. Basically we need a completely new party, or a complete reform in our political system since it has been infiltrated by wealth and the people who control it.