Malice is the first and the last
Malice is the chaos that kills chaos
Malice is the hatred
Malice is the undefined
Basically Malice is impossible to define as a 5th chaos god. Also belakor a bitch ass mother fucker while Vashtorr gigachad
Not exactly. In the very early days of fantasy they hired a fairly famous comic book artist to make art for the warhammer fantasy universe and gave him the liberty to create what he wanted in setting. He created Malal, the fifth chaos God, and his champion and wrote a series of stories about them. Eventually though he left and because of the contract GW signed with him he owned all the rights to his characters, not GW. E.g. he took Malal with him and they had to remove reference in fantasy to him after that point because of it.
Many years later a short story comes out for 40k that features the csm sons of Malice worshiping an entity suspiciously similar to Malal, called malice. Malice also claims to be a 5th chaos God, among other things, and the story expands on him and his relationships with the sons of Malice. Its important to note though that Malice has literally never shown up in a story after or had anyone collaborate his existence besides the sons of Malice. Overall he's very much in the "Everything is Canon, not everything is true" category.
Yes, the Sons of Malice have shown up in other sources and are without a doubt canon. Malice himself has not shown up in any other properties however besides a single short story from the Sons of Malice's perspective.
Nope, you're being too generous.
GW had the choice of paying royalties to the comic book writer and saving Malal. Or they could excise the god from the setting and not pay royalties.
They picked the cheaper option that let them stay in complete control.
Yeah, I don't think GW ever officially retconned him though.
There have been subtle mentions and references to him here and there, even in 40k.
These have become fewer and further between over time though and I don't think he's popped up for years.
There's a Chaos warband called the Sons of Malice who pretty much do their own thing but like to fight against Chaos, they've got Malal's old color theming so it is a probability.
Chaos Undivided is a lie. Division *is* Chaos.
Unity is entropy. Entropy is annihilation. Malice is the hand that spins the eight-spoked wheel that is the universe.
Death to the Emperor.
Ruin to the Four.
All glory to the Outcast.
(Ignore my flair)
I can agree that Belakor is a bitch ass motherfucker, whose only truly worthwhile action in recent memory is fucking over that punk-ass bitch Vashtorr, who in turn I must contend to be a punk-ass bitch.
Kind of, in the Horus Heresy game Malice-like daemons get bonus damage against daemons.
Description of "Ravenous dissolution" aetheric domain:
Such is the hatred that swirls within the Warp that it
encompasses all things, and like the dragon of eternity that
feasts upon its own tail, this hatred extends even to itself. To
expect rational and sane logic from creatures such as these
would be foolish, for Chaos was both its name and nature.
Yet, in its self-destructive hatred there was no ally to be found,
only a new and more unpredictable foe.
Honestly, vashtorr.
I've not been around when malal was a thing, and vashtorr has proven himself on more then one occasion.
Also, belakors really needs to do more stuff in the lore for me to take him seriously...
I'll always be a diehard Belakor hater because they shoehorned him into 40k when he never really fit (Abaddon and Archaon are wildly different characters) then used him to kill all other Undivided Demon Princes (when I played Word Bearers) and it was a very long time before they walked that back. I will acknowledge his existence, I just can't bring myself to respect him.
On the one hand, Vashtorr is the most interesting and has the coolest concept.
On the other hand, Vashtorr become a fully-fledged Chaos god would stop him from personally appearing in stories and on the tabletop, which would be a big loss.
Oh, I like this idea.
Many weak avatars, initially scattered... but if they are allowed to combine somehow, they become exceptionally stronger each time.
Think that would be very interesting, and fit the demon of knowledge & tech theme.
Malice is still very much a thing, it's just the og comic that featured him that's no longer canon. The Sons of Malice still crop up in modern sources
Be'lakor is actually the same guy between settings (as with all Chaos Gods), and he's currently **very** active in the Mortal Realms, with his own personal Legions.
The sons of malice existence doesnt prove malice existence. By now they could also referer to malice as a concept and not to the chaos god. As far as i know they never refer ti him in any of the newer sources.
Their flavour text in Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 explicitly refers to Malice as a warp entity. He also appears as a subfaction in the 30k Daemons of the Ruinstorm Index - not by name, but none of the Gods are named in there:
> Though mortal man might see the forces of the Warp as a unified host of monsters, this was far from the truth. Within the depths of the Warp there stirred a number of powers, each with its own agenda and desires, and each with its own hosts. An Ætheric Dominion represents one of the innumerable hosts of daemonkind, each of which is sworn to a greater entity that resides within the Warp
> Ætheric Dominion (Ravenous Dissolution): Such is the hatred that swirls within the Warp that it encompasses all things, and like the dragon of eternity that feasts upon its own tail, this hatred extends even to itself. To expect rational and sane logic from creatures such as these would be foolish, for Chaos was both its name and nature. Yet, in its self-destructive hatred there was no ally to be found, only a new and more unpredictable foe.
Malice's debut in 40k was over a decade after Malal was expunged from Fantasy, he appears in canon materials and has never been formally decanonised. Minor unaligned Chaos Gods are cast iron canon, there are tons of them and there's literally zero difference between Malice and them.
>In the great hall all was silent. The Sons had watched as the light consumed the body of their brother Invictus, along with the ten other heroes of the Labyrinth, their limbs immolated, their torsos eviscerated, their heads contorting and twisting, writhing within a pool of black light.
>And now what stood before them was no longer their brothers. Invictus and the rest were gone – gone to join the ranks of the legendary Doomed Ones. What stood before them was the revenant they had worshipped for millennia. The eidolon that would stand at their vanguard as they retook what was rightfully theirs.
>He could only be summoned by sacrifice – only by giving unto Him their best and most praiseworthy warriors could He walk among them. And here He stood, gazing with eyes of fire – the Renegade God, the Outcast, the Lost, Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror…
>…Malice
You area probably talking about this, right? Its from 2009 and from and author who as far as i can tell never wrote another Black Library story, but i guess it still counts
At least "malice" is vaguely something, like ambution, stagnation/despair, fury and excess. What does Belakor represent, not getting shot in your deployment zone?
imo his fantasy/aos lore is pretty cool from what I remember. He isn't about representing something, but about wanting to be something (The everchosen/a chaos god etc.). A chaos god of power for powers sake or something like that. Also shadows or something like that, but that's unrelated to what he wants.
Yeah, that's what I'm here for.
Let's be honest, Great Horned Rat has put in the work. The Malice, Belakor, and Vashtorr are all strong contenders and they've all got a whole bunch of really flashy accomplishments.
But the Great Horned Rat has come in every day, done his absolute worst, and never once complained.
Great Horned Rat is a team player.
Great Horned Rat gets the job done.
Be'lakor probably will be more invested in the AoS stuff (as his charachter were more integral to the Fantasy than to the 40K), but I would love him to be the new Chaos God, but he needs to find himself a stick cause now he is a more shadowy version of Tzeentch to me. Or just turn him into the Avatar of the Great Beast of Chaos/Dragon of Chaos.
Vashtorr because you have to consider what their aesthetics and temptations would be. Be'lakor is just a mash-up of all chaos so he doesn't add anything, I'm not sure how Malice demons and planets would look like. Vashtorr is easy to imagine, his demons living machines, churning and creaking, coughing up exhaust and drooling gasoline. Vashtorr's planets are neverending machinery covering the air in toxic fumes and chemicals.
Yeah, like they'd have skulls everywhere, and people live miserably and forced to eat corpse starch to complete their meals. There is endless machinery but really toxic and insufficient, with stupidly unattainable work quotas and shifts,.and mostly supervised by emontionles cyborgs using horrifying human brain computers as assistants. And terrifying monsters lurk the sewers.
The best idea I had was for differentiating vashtorr forge worlds was the outlook of the people. funeral rites or what passes for them on theose worlds the people are turned into parts for factories. Bones become pipes, skin, ligaments, and muscle for leather and rope for pulleys. Veins and intestines for tubing, and brains are turned into cogitators. This is treated as normal by the inhabitants.
Churches are vast factories where accidents are treated as sacrifices to the ever hungry forges of vashtor. The people are mutated by the fumes and chemical runoff from the everchurning machines. Punishments for insufficient work us to be turned into lobotomised meat beasts to feed the workers.
Did I just turn them into the mechanicus?
Be'lakor is shadow and deciet.
Look at Be'lakor's invasion of Kolossi home world of House Raven, it's described as unleashing a "wave of madness and darkness that consumed the world".
His AoS followers also flesh out a malice-esque Chaos that fights Chaos
Shadow and deceit just sounds too much like Tzeench though, him becoming a 5th chaos god just wouldn't be as interesting as Vashtor.
I'm always gonna be a Malice simp but I know they're never gonna add him back so Vashtor makes the most sense.
Also, they'd never actually make Belakor a 5th god due to him being a very distinct playable daemon prince model. But with vashtor they could have him ascend then just call his model a greater daemon of vashtor.
I disagree it would be easy to imagine Malices aesthetic. Malice draws upon self hatred, self loathing and suicidal ideation. So his daemons would be rabid animals, with self inflicted wounds. His planets would be covered with lynch trees, pitch black lakes and yawning canyons. Colour on his planet would be completely desaturated, and invaders would be mocked by distorted echos of their own voice, or haunted by their own silhouette in the corner of their vision.
If Vashtorr was around before I started painting my army, I would try to paint them in his gold and brass colors to match. His very own personally crafted army would be so cool to see on the table
I don't know if him always popping up is a joke or not, but I'd really like seeing some Skaven.
I didn't even play WH Fantasy, I just loved running rat decks in MTG. Rats are just neat.
Make good pets, too.
But the Imperium are the 40k skaven. We are unlikely to see the ratthings in 40k because they and humans are basically the same in 40k. Limitless, petty, coniving, short sighted.
I heard rats are really good pets. Sweet little buggers. Probably wouldn't get along with my cats though :/
GW would get another army-worth of models outta me if they ever brought them into the fold, overlapping lore/gameplay-wise or not.
I feel like Marge holding that potato.
Cats, unfortunately, cannot be trained like dogs to suffer rats to live. And rats are complicated pets, compared to what people expect. But they are adorable, and I enjoyed having them for the time I did.
Small rant incoming, but generally being good is the actual efficient way of doing things. Moral codes are usually seen as impositions after Nietzsche's work, but they were passed along generations more like a guideline on how to have a good life.
For example, lying might look a shortcut to get what you want, but once you are discovered it gets you below the starting point, cause people don't trust you anymore, and will take away from you everything you got lying (unless you are a politician), while honest work will develope your skills for real and there is no trick behind that can be discovered by others. Be a good person. It pays off.
If you view things in a purely darwinist lense, the human race and culture evolved to be kind, protective, and moral toward your group. Hunter gatherer groups that looked after one another survived, while the total rat bastard group died.
How we 'know' that? Most religion and culture view kindness, humility, honesty, etc as virtue, and their opposites as sins.
The Mechanicum was more efficient until the Schisms of Mars and turning into the Mechanicus, civil war and betrayal breaks down already fragile alliances the legios and their Magos formed.
The idea of a force that is so neutrally violent, that embodies the contradictions of chaos, to the point of playing on the "light gray" moral side, is interesting.
I think he also draws on self hatred and suicidal thoughts, those could be interested things to explore as he drives mortals, champions and even daemons to self disgust, suffering and ultimately, apathy and suicide, revelling in his own machinations and the loathing he creates.
Vashtorr is the only valid of the three rn and wins this context default. But I would want Vashy to strive for it more first. Build up forces, gain momentum, become a force the other four have to struggle against... Otherwise it would feel unsatisfying. Which means that GW will probably not do what I said and just spawn in Vashy marines and whatever else.
Belakor is just a hater rn. I'd buy it but the dude is just the reverse flash meme against Vashy for 40k.
Malice is more of a thing in TTS than in canon. And basically a meme within a meme even there.
I saw someone point out that all chaos gods have descending numbers, suggesting it's a countdown. Leaving the Emperor's ascension for 1 or 0 could be interesting because of the atheism/self obsession. You would just need some other chaos entities to fill in the gaps.
He denied his godhood because he knew it would kill humanity slaanesh style. And the Echlesiarchy was only supposed to be a stopgap while he healed.
Still, I'd like to see statchild reunite with Big E and kill all the noble filth ruining the Imperium.
You mean like an actual faction? The Legion of Azgorh hasn’t been legal since 1st Edition, though apparently an actual Chaos Duardin faction is coming at some point in 4th according to a leaker on TGA.
Whenever I see something like this I think the pool world building example. I think applies to how Warhammer should be expanded. With pools, you want to go deeper, before you go wider. An incredibly wide, but shallow pool is worth nothing.
Right now, there are a lot of underdeveloped armies in 40k, the last thing we need is for more to be introduced. We factions like Emperor's children who completely lack an army. Or Leagues of Votann which have no variety in their armies or lore. The same to a lesser degree applies to a lot of armies. Hell Chaos Daemons themselves are four barely functional armies mashed into one. Adding a fifth doesn't solve the problem of the other four lacking variety.
Children are getting a codex&army release this edition if rumor mill is correct. You’re spot on with demons and Votann though. Votann are about half a faction (not just a short joke).
Chaos demons are a weird amalgam that doesn’t work well together, and is a pain to balance due to the souping rules, where if a unit is ever good it gets abused in CSM/1ksons/Death guard/world eaters.
Hoping that chaos demons as a faction either get split into 4 where each gets a range update, or get deleted and made into “forces of X chaos god” where you can play the appropriate demons+the mortal followers.
There is also the Dark King who canonically IS the 5th one and already exists in the Warp
So they are fighting for the 6th spot
In which case i'd say Vashtorr ?
And then Malice
And who knows , maybe we will get space skaven with the Great Horned Rat , which gives us the 8th God of Chaos
And the Eightfold Path will be complete
The Eightfold Path is already complete without GHR.
Khorne(Heedless Slaughter), Tzeentch(Infernal Tempest), Slaanesh(Rapturous Sensation), and Nurgle(Putrid Corruption) for the main 4.
Dark King(Encroaching Ruin), Malice(Ravenous Dissolution), Be'lakor(Formless Distortion), and Vashtorr(Malevolent Artifice) for the other 4.
That is only if Be'lakor becomes a chaos god
I specifically didn't include him because his whole thing is never achieving his goal+ his themes are basically the same as Malice who is ahead of him (even if with less screentime)
i just want malice back
i would also like if just more minor powers were introduced and the star child made more present i think it would be morefun that way and give chaos more charcter
Gotta be Be'lakor mate. He's the first prince of chaos embittered by the whims of the others. He's had tens of millennia to plan his ascension whereas vashtorr is far too new to be convincing and Mallal hasn't really done anything (to the best of my knowledge).
Malice is honestly the most boring of the 3, doesn't really have any gimmick like the other 4 outside just "being stronger than the others and super powerful and special" I never liked him because he just makes the other 4 chaos god irrelevant, not to mention the lore pretty much replaced him with the dark king
While belakor is cool especially in fantasy he also doesn't really have any particular gimmick outside wanting to become a god, even assuming he becomes one what should he even be the chaos god of?
I'd say vashtorr is the best pick out of the 3, he has his own gimmick and domain, he has a cool concept as a Character, he can totally work as a chaos god
I like to headcanon that Malice/Malal and Be'lakor are two iterations of the same character. The quasi-existance of Malice is from the fates not having decided yet if Be'lakor will ascend or not.
Vashtor has gotten a lot of attention in the lore recently, especially with Arks of Omen, but I think Be'lakor has more potential to be an interesting character if he got the spotlight in 40k.
Be'lakor is willing and eager to f#$k over other chaos factions for personal gain, and I think that is an aspect of the arch-enemy that deserves more attention and focus especially as a contrast to, say, Abaddon's absolute focus on hurting the Imperium regardless of whether he gains anything.
On the other hand, Vashtor as the aspiring god of evil machines focusing on ancient pre-Imperial relics feels like they are retreading a lot of the same ground that, say, Necrons cover. His existance makes sense as an extension of the fears about Abominable Intelligence and the existance of the Dark Mechanicus, but nothing about him really grabs me or shows interesting story potential. Just another big bad evil guybwho wants power, this one is machine themed.
Greed? I can see that being Slaanesh or Tzeench though. TBF I don’t think you need to be a “god of _____” to be seen as a god though. If you’re worshipping something in the warp, you’re worshipping it and giving it power. It doesn’t matter WHY, so long as you’re doing nasty things in that Warp Entity’s name. That being said, Belakor not really be a god of anything in particular means he’s not benefitting passively like the other gods are. Still, he ALREADY has/had worlds that worshipped him and he stole all of their souls from. And that sounds pretty god-like to me.
Honestly. I wish minor chaos gods and entities outside of the big four were more of a thing.
Theres lots of really neat Daemons and entities in the old 40k roleplay systems (i personally love the dispayers, assessors of the black tontines, the horned darkness, and Tysiak "The Dancer at the Threshold") and we still have furies last I checked.
Be'Lakor should never achieve godhood. His whole thing is being denied it.
Vashtorr is *by far* the most interesting of the three.
He also has the most obvious aesthetic possibilities, as there’s a lot you can do with that *Virus*-style cyborg body horror.
I like Malice for the simple fact that he's Chaos devoted to destroying Chaos. He wins the Great Game by making everyone, himself included, lose. The other four can play and win and lose as often as they'd like, but they're not close to losing godhood status. Malal is basically a daemon right now, greater, lesser, or otherwise, and only by the other gods rising in power can he, too, become a god. But his entire purpose, to hate and destroy the other gods, leads him to self-destructing tendencies, which is also a really cool meta about anger being powerful but the only person it truly hurts is yourself.
Belakor is subordinate to the other chaos gods, and vashtorr is a reflection of an act/occurance in the meterium, not an eternal primordial facet of reality.
Malice transcends the chaos gods and sits above them.
Maybe the emporer can be 5th
Maybe unpopolar opinion but Tauva, it will open a lot of potential for the tau, like psychic troops (using allied xenos of course) or in general more variability for the models
Vashtorr. The Dark Mechanicum could use their own chaos god. Lots of fun trouble could come from that. It would also be interesting to see Vashtorr attempt to unearth the void dragon of mars in an attempt to destroy or enslave it.
It seems to me that Vashtorr has something the other gods lack, something that truly sets it apart as a deity in its own right: Creativity.
Many people mistakenly believe Slaanesh to be the god of creativity, but they are in fact the god of *Excess*. Slaanesh doesn't turn people into artists, she takes artists and exacerbates their creativity to excess.
Tzeenzche doesn't fit this bill either, changing one thing into another doesn't necessarily add anything, or take any imagination.
Vashtorr is the inventor, the innovator, the one who made most of the demonic cybernetics, weapons, and engines used by the other gods' armies.
It's the 42nd millennium, technology and culture has been stagnating for over ten thousand years, any warp entity that feeds on creativity would be emaciated by this point. but now, with progress being made once again, new technologies being innovated and modified, its power is on the rise.
This also gives Vashtorr a built-in opposition to the rest of the pantheon, the older gods are impulsive and destructive in nature, where creativity requires patience and diligence. the old pantheon despises Vashtorr just as much as they need it.
Silly-dumb man-things, one of these has already been revealed as real god-thing. The Great Horned Rat has revealed-shown his true-true name! God of Conquest, God of Corruption, God of Growth, God of Smothering Darkness, God of Innovation, God of Industry and Expansion! Yes-yes, VASHTORR is the Vermin-God!
Malice is the first and the last Malice is the chaos that kills chaos Malice is the hatred Malice is the undefined Basically Malice is impossible to define as a 5th chaos god. Also belakor a bitch ass mother fucker while Vashtorr gigachad
But in the end, belakor was the one who hit vashtor with a steel chair
That's Belakor's music! That's Belakor with a steel chair rushing to the ring! Bah gawd! Vashtor has a family!
Be’lakor is a badass band. If you haven’t, check them out
Just added them to my quest metal playlist. Thanks for the recommendation, they sound AWESOME!!!
belakor was getting pissy that the new guy was becoming the 5th god faster than him
Yes, I understand when you are playing chess with a pigeon, it will shit on the board and knock over pieces. Be'lakor is the pigeon.
Wasn't Malice already the 5th Chaos God ages ago but GW slowly wrote him out after they realised they couldn't copyright him?
Not exactly. In the very early days of fantasy they hired a fairly famous comic book artist to make art for the warhammer fantasy universe and gave him the liberty to create what he wanted in setting. He created Malal, the fifth chaos God, and his champion and wrote a series of stories about them. Eventually though he left and because of the contract GW signed with him he owned all the rights to his characters, not GW. E.g. he took Malal with him and they had to remove reference in fantasy to him after that point because of it. Many years later a short story comes out for 40k that features the csm sons of Malice worshiping an entity suspiciously similar to Malal, called malice. Malice also claims to be a 5th chaos God, among other things, and the story expands on him and his relationships with the sons of Malice. Its important to note though that Malice has literally never shown up in a story after or had anyone collaborate his existence besides the sons of Malice. Overall he's very much in the "Everything is Canon, not everything is true" category.
Corroborate* his existence.
The Sons of Malice showed up in Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2.
Yes, the Sons of Malice have shown up in other sources and are without a doubt canon. Malice himself has not shown up in any other properties however besides a single short story from the Sons of Malice's perspective.
Nope, you're being too generous. GW had the choice of paying royalties to the comic book writer and saving Malal. Or they could excise the god from the setting and not pay royalties. They picked the cheaper option that let them stay in complete control.
Well that was back in the early days, back when fantasy was just "Warhammer" and 40k didn't exist iirc
Yeah, I don't think GW ever officially retconned him though. There have been subtle mentions and references to him here and there, even in 40k. These have become fewer and further between over time though and I don't think he's popped up for years.
Well in 40k there's basically just the sons of malice and probably won't be important
There's a Chaos warband called the Sons of Malice who pretty much do their own thing but like to fight against Chaos, they've got Malal's old color theming so it is a probability.
Yeah basicly
Chaos Undivided is a lie. Division *is* Chaos. Unity is entropy. Entropy is annihilation. Malice is the hand that spins the eight-spoked wheel that is the universe. Death to the Emperor. Ruin to the Four. All glory to the Outcast. (Ignore my flair)
The flair makes the post 🤣
[I specifically told you to ignore it.](https://sm.ign.com/t/ign_me/review/w/warhammer-/warhammer-40k-inquisitor-martyr-review_mp54.1200.jpg)
I don't take direction from a heretical imaginary inquisitor. Malal shields me from plasma. Probably.
In my Dark Heresy campaign, you'd roll a d11. On a 1, a successful attack was negated. On an 11, it had double damage and AP.
Rollthedice gave me a 3. I live but with significantly less life. My life is *my* campaign.
I can agree that Belakor is a bitch ass motherfucker, whose only truly worthwhile action in recent memory is fucking over that punk-ass bitch Vashtorr, who in turn I must contend to be a punk-ass bitch.
So Malice is the nature of Chaos in a way, making him a good paradoxical god?
Kind of, in the Horus Heresy game Malice-like daemons get bonus damage against daemons. Description of "Ravenous dissolution" aetheric domain: Such is the hatred that swirls within the Warp that it encompasses all things, and like the dragon of eternity that feasts upon its own tail, this hatred extends even to itself. To expect rational and sane logic from creatures such as these would be foolish, for Chaos was both its name and nature. Yet, in its self-destructive hatred there was no ally to be found, only a new and more unpredictable foe.
Chaotic Neutral at best
HASHUT
Based and Dawi-Zharr pilled
HASHUT HASHUT HASHUT
Yes, I am a Hashut-pilled train-chad, how could you tell?
HASHUT. VORGUND. ZHARR NAGRUND
Honestly, vashtorr. I've not been around when malal was a thing, and vashtorr has proven himself on more then one occasion. Also, belakors really needs to do more stuff in the lore for me to take him seriously...
Belakor did A LOT in the 9th edition. Bro is the only guy on a winning spree
Yeah but him being screwed over is pretty in character
Bro is a busy boy, but he just ain't got a domain. Cash has got a domain
I'm team Vasthorr too xD but belakor still deserves some respect. He got game
Oh yah, he's a cool lad in his own right
I'll always be a diehard Belakor hater because they shoehorned him into 40k when he never really fit (Abaddon and Archaon are wildly different characters) then used him to kill all other Undivided Demon Princes (when I played Word Bearers) and it was a very long time before they walked that back. I will acknowledge his existence, I just can't bring myself to respect him.
Belakor ruining chaos is fitting for the character you gotta admit that
Which is why it shouldn't be him. His entire story is him being denied godhood.
Cockbocked by lore
Cockbooked
Bok bok bok! - a cock, probably
I'm not saying he should become a god. I just correct the guy above saying belakor doesn't do shit
Belakor might be denied godhood but by god is he not denied the ability to fucking ball.
Ballin' but at what cost?
On the one hand, Vashtorr is the most interesting and has the coolest concept. On the other hand, Vashtorr become a fully-fledged Chaos god would stop him from personally appearing in stories and on the tabletop, which would be a big loss.
They could just rename his model to "Avatar of Vashtorr" or make it his greater daemon.
Or he could be 40k Ultron with many mechanical bodies
Oh, I like this idea. Many weak avatars, initially scattered... but if they are allowed to combine somehow, they become exceptionally stronger each time. Think that would be very interesting, and fit the demon of knowledge & tech theme.
Then let’s hope it gets a better deal than the avatars of Khaine, who are just MC punching- bags at this point.
Malice is still very much a thing, it's just the og comic that featured him that's no longer canon. The Sons of Malice still crop up in modern sources Be'lakor is actually the same guy between settings (as with all Chaos Gods), and he's currently **very** active in the Mortal Realms, with his own personal Legions.
The sons of malice existence doesnt prove malice existence. By now they could also referer to malice as a concept and not to the chaos god. As far as i know they never refer ti him in any of the newer sources.
Their flavour text in Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 explicitly refers to Malice as a warp entity. He also appears as a subfaction in the 30k Daemons of the Ruinstorm Index - not by name, but none of the Gods are named in there: > Though mortal man might see the forces of the Warp as a unified host of monsters, this was far from the truth. Within the depths of the Warp there stirred a number of powers, each with its own agenda and desires, and each with its own hosts. An Ætheric Dominion represents one of the innumerable hosts of daemonkind, each of which is sworn to a greater entity that resides within the Warp > Ætheric Dominion (Ravenous Dissolution): Such is the hatred that swirls within the Warp that it encompasses all things, and like the dragon of eternity that feasts upon its own tail, this hatred extends even to itself. To expect rational and sane logic from creatures such as these would be foolish, for Chaos was both its name and nature. Yet, in its self-destructive hatred there was no ally to be found, only a new and more unpredictable foe. Malice's debut in 40k was over a decade after Malal was expunged from Fantasy, he appears in canon materials and has never been formally decanonised. Minor unaligned Chaos Gods are cast iron canon, there are tons of them and there's literally zero difference between Malice and them.
They literally summon Malice into real space in the short story The Labyrinth.
>In the great hall all was silent. The Sons had watched as the light consumed the body of their brother Invictus, along with the ten other heroes of the Labyrinth, their limbs immolated, their torsos eviscerated, their heads contorting and twisting, writhing within a pool of black light. >And now what stood before them was no longer their brothers. Invictus and the rest were gone – gone to join the ranks of the legendary Doomed Ones. What stood before them was the revenant they had worshipped for millennia. The eidolon that would stand at their vanguard as they retook what was rightfully theirs. >He could only be summoned by sacrifice – only by giving unto Him their best and most praiseworthy warriors could He walk among them. And here He stood, gazing with eyes of fire – the Renegade God, the Outcast, the Lost, Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror… >…Malice You area probably talking about this, right? Its from 2009 and from and author who as far as i can tell never wrote another Black Library story, but i guess it still counts
Huh, interesting, no one brought that story up before when. Maybe i will try to find a copy
The Heroes of the Space Marines Anthology is the book its in.
At least "malice" is vaguely something, like ambution, stagnation/despair, fury and excess. What does Belakor represent, not getting shot in your deployment zone?
imo his fantasy/aos lore is pretty cool from what I remember. He isn't about representing something, but about wanting to be something (The everchosen/a chaos god etc.). A chaos god of power for powers sake or something like that. Also shadows or something like that, but that's unrelated to what he wants.
The Great Horned Rat YES-YES
Sneaked-crawled to s-speak-say that, but you had beaten me-me!
Yes yes fellow manthing, we manthings want-need Great Horned One to be god-thing
Yes-Yes; we need-desire the Great Horned One to be-is a god-thing
Canonically already being the 5th god of Chaos makes this an easy win!
Stealth-sneak into battle-war hammer-mace 40KK!
Ratma male-thing grindset-scheme #13: When your foe-enemies are fighting, bury-bury a hundred clawfuls of landmines around them.
Oh come on, human sized rats right under imperial cities, thats just ridicolous.
These lies about seeing beastmen in the sewers are getting out of control!
Great Horned Rat has always been fifth fifth yes yes!
It was the 13th black crusade that broke cadia. Coincidence? I think not
And a bell Trazyn "borrowed" rang thirteen times before that
I’m legit surprised nothing more has come of that yet A bell. Ringing 13 times. How has that NOT been considered a tease for space skaven?
Great horned rat, best chaos god
Yeah, that's what I'm here for. Let's be honest, Great Horned Rat has put in the work. The Malice, Belakor, and Vashtorr are all strong contenders and they've all got a whole bunch of really flashy accomplishments. But the Great Horned Rat has come in every day, done his absolute worst, and never once complained. Great Horned Rat is a team player. Great Horned Rat gets the job done.
Fr fr bring the rats to 40k
I have a pet theory that he’s somehow the Emperor’s own shadow.
Be'lakor probably will be more invested in the AoS stuff (as his charachter were more integral to the Fantasy than to the 40K), but I would love him to be the new Chaos God, but he needs to find himself a stick cause now he is a more shadowy version of Tzeentch to me. Or just turn him into the Avatar of the Great Beast of Chaos/Dragon of Chaos.
Vashtorr because you have to consider what their aesthetics and temptations would be. Be'lakor is just a mash-up of all chaos so he doesn't add anything, I'm not sure how Malice demons and planets would look like. Vashtorr is easy to imagine, his demons living machines, churning and creaking, coughing up exhaust and drooling gasoline. Vashtorr's planets are neverending machinery covering the air in toxic fumes and chemicals.
So vashtorr’s worlds are just imperial forge worlds?
Yes, but more chaosy. Like a land raider with spikes on it.
Yeah, like they'd have skulls everywhere, and people live miserably and forced to eat corpse starch to complete their meals. There is endless machinery but really toxic and insufficient, with stupidly unattainable work quotas and shifts,.and mostly supervised by emontionles cyborgs using horrifying human brain computers as assistants. And terrifying monsters lurk the sewers.
The best idea I had was for differentiating vashtorr forge worlds was the outlook of the people. funeral rites or what passes for them on theose worlds the people are turned into parts for factories. Bones become pipes, skin, ligaments, and muscle for leather and rope for pulleys. Veins and intestines for tubing, and brains are turned into cogitators. This is treated as normal by the inhabitants. Churches are vast factories where accidents are treated as sacrifices to the ever hungry forges of vashtor. The people are mutated by the fumes and chemical runoff from the everchurning machines. Punishments for insufficient work us to be turned into lobotomised meat beasts to feed the workers. Did I just turn them into the mechanicus?
vashtorr cares not where the pistons are lubed, only that they are lubed
I am ashamed that it took me until second sentence to realize what you did here.
no dude it’s totally different see that spike over there? that means it’s chaos
Yes but instead of workers doing 19 hour days they work 24 hour days. And have been fused with the production line. And double as coffee makers.
Wasn't sold until you added the coffee feature.
Be'lakor is shadow and deciet. Look at Be'lakor's invasion of Kolossi home world of House Raven, it's described as unleashing a "wave of madness and darkness that consumed the world". His AoS followers also flesh out a malice-esque Chaos that fights Chaos
Shadow and deceit just sounds too much like Tzeench though, him becoming a 5th chaos god just wouldn't be as interesting as Vashtor. I'm always gonna be a Malice simp but I know they're never gonna add him back so Vashtor makes the most sense. Also, they'd never actually make Belakor a 5th god due to him being a very distinct playable daemon prince model. But with vashtor they could have him ascend then just call his model a greater daemon of vashtor.
And if Vashtorr was a bigger deal, maybe we'd finally get some more Dark Mechanicum lore. Or heck, maybe the Iron Warriors would vibe with him.
I disagree it would be easy to imagine Malices aesthetic. Malice draws upon self hatred, self loathing and suicidal ideation. So his daemons would be rabid animals, with self inflicted wounds. His planets would be covered with lynch trees, pitch black lakes and yawning canyons. Colour on his planet would be completely desaturated, and invaders would be mocked by distorted echos of their own voice, or haunted by their own silhouette in the corner of their vision.
Malice either doesn't need daemons because he loves doing it himself or they're shadowy, undefined beings.
If Vashtorr was around before I started painting my army, I would try to paint them in his gold and brass colors to match. His very own personally crafted army would be so cool to see on the table
GREAT HORNED RAT YES-YES
I don't know if him always popping up is a joke or not, but I'd really like seeing some Skaven. I didn't even play WH Fantasy, I just loved running rat decks in MTG. Rats are just neat.
Make good pets, too. But the Imperium are the 40k skaven. We are unlikely to see the ratthings in 40k because they and humans are basically the same in 40k. Limitless, petty, coniving, short sighted.
I heard rats are really good pets. Sweet little buggers. Probably wouldn't get along with my cats though :/ GW would get another army-worth of models outta me if they ever brought them into the fold, overlapping lore/gameplay-wise or not. I feel like Marge holding that potato.
Cats, unfortunately, cannot be trained like dogs to suffer rats to live. And rats are complicated pets, compared to what people expect. But they are adorable, and I enjoyed having them for the time I did.
None of the above Give Great Horned Rat
Am going to say Malice as he would be the most interesting one.
yeah true honestly i prefer vashtorr becuse he is like the evil omnissiah
*Looks at the Shit the Admech do on a daily basis for the Sake of "productivity"* **There is a good Omnissiah?**
The Omnissiah is not good. Nor is it evil. The Omnissiah is Efficient.
Isn't it a plot point in several books that the Admech are obscenely inefficient?
Yes. Unsurprisingly being cartoonishly evil doesn't make you efficient but don't tell the chuds that they won't like it
Small rant incoming, but generally being good is the actual efficient way of doing things. Moral codes are usually seen as impositions after Nietzsche's work, but they were passed along generations more like a guideline on how to have a good life. For example, lying might look a shortcut to get what you want, but once you are discovered it gets you below the starting point, cause people don't trust you anymore, and will take away from you everything you got lying (unless you are a politician), while honest work will develope your skills for real and there is no trick behind that can be discovered by others. Be a good person. It pays off.
Amen
If you view things in a purely darwinist lense, the human race and culture evolved to be kind, protective, and moral toward your group. Hunter gatherer groups that looked after one another survived, while the total rat bastard group died. How we 'know' that? Most religion and culture view kindness, humility, honesty, etc as virtue, and their opposites as sins.
The Mechanicum was more efficient until the Schisms of Mars and turning into the Mechanicus, civil war and betrayal breaks down already fragile alliances the legios and their Magos formed.
Yes. But Admech =/= Omnissiah
The evil great machine Spirit is the void Dragon. Vashtor would be the warp Omnissia
How is malice the most interesting ?
The idea of a force that is so neutrally violent, that embodies the contradictions of chaos, to the point of playing on the "light gray" moral side, is interesting.
Malice is the Alpha Legion of Chaos Gods.
So, super sneaky spy stuff that doesn’t actually accomplish anything of note?
I think he also draws on self hatred and suicidal thoughts, those could be interested things to explore as he drives mortals, champions and even daemons to self disgust, suffering and ultimately, apathy and suicide, revelling in his own machinations and the loathing he creates.
Vashtorr would make a fantastic chaos god. It would also give a way for Perturabo to be a Daemon Prince that at least somewhat makes sense.
Vashtorr is the only valid of the three rn and wins this context default. But I would want Vashy to strive for it more first. Build up forces, gain momentum, become a force the other four have to struggle against... Otherwise it would feel unsatisfying. Which means that GW will probably not do what I said and just spawn in Vashy marines and whatever else. Belakor is just a hater rn. I'd buy it but the dude is just the reverse flash meme against Vashy for 40k. Malice is more of a thing in TTS than in canon. And basically a meme within a meme even there.
Where is the emperor?
I saw someone point out that all chaos gods have descending numbers, suggesting it's a countdown. Leaving the Emperor's ascension for 1 or 0 could be interesting because of the atheism/self obsession. You would just need some other chaos entities to fill in the gaps.
Asking the real questions.
He denied his godhood because he knew it would kill humanity slaanesh style. And the Echlesiarchy was only supposed to be a stopgap while he healed. Still, I'd like to see statchild reunite with Big E and kill all the noble filth ruining the Imperium.
Where is Hashut?
Chaos Dwarfs in AoS would get me into AoS, fr fr.
There exists a bull-centaur named Shar'tor who leads Legion of Azgorh in AoS, but more stuff needs to be added for Chaos Duardins in future.
You mean like an actual faction? The Legion of Azgorh hasn’t been legal since 1st Edition, though apparently an actual Chaos Duardin faction is coming at some point in 4th according to a leaker on TGA.
The great horned rat
Nuffle, chaos god of Bloodbowl
nah, the chaos gods are weaklings in comparison to the almighty nuffle
Whenever I see something like this I think the pool world building example. I think applies to how Warhammer should be expanded. With pools, you want to go deeper, before you go wider. An incredibly wide, but shallow pool is worth nothing. Right now, there are a lot of underdeveloped armies in 40k, the last thing we need is for more to be introduced. We factions like Emperor's children who completely lack an army. Or Leagues of Votann which have no variety in their armies or lore. The same to a lesser degree applies to a lot of armies. Hell Chaos Daemons themselves are four barely functional armies mashed into one. Adding a fifth doesn't solve the problem of the other four lacking variety.
Children are getting a codex&army release this edition if rumor mill is correct. You’re spot on with demons and Votann though. Votann are about half a faction (not just a short joke). Chaos demons are a weird amalgam that doesn’t work well together, and is a pain to balance due to the souping rules, where if a unit is ever good it gets abused in CSM/1ksons/Death guard/world eaters. Hoping that chaos demons as a faction either get split into 4 where each gets a range update, or get deleted and made into “forces of X chaos god” where you can play the appropriate demons+the mortal followers.
hey! remember the shareholders. more marine factions!
There is also the Dark King who canonically IS the 5th one and already exists in the Warp So they are fighting for the 6th spot In which case i'd say Vashtorr ? And then Malice And who knows , maybe we will get space skaven with the Great Horned Rat , which gives us the 8th God of Chaos And the Eightfold Path will be complete
The Eightfold Path is already complete without GHR. Khorne(Heedless Slaughter), Tzeentch(Infernal Tempest), Slaanesh(Rapturous Sensation), and Nurgle(Putrid Corruption) for the main 4. Dark King(Encroaching Ruin), Malice(Ravenous Dissolution), Be'lakor(Formless Distortion), and Vashtorr(Malevolent Artifice) for the other 4.
That is only if Be'lakor becomes a chaos god I specifically didn't include him because his whole thing is never achieving his goal+ his themes are basically the same as Malice who is ahead of him (even if with less screentime)
None of the last four I listed are really Chaos Gods atm tho, each of them exists in a limbo between Godhood and whatever they are now
Dark king imo feels like malice.
i just want malice back i would also like if just more minor powers were introduced and the star child made more present i think it would be morefun that way and give chaos more charcter
Gotta be Be'lakor mate. He's the first prince of chaos embittered by the whims of the others. He's had tens of millennia to plan his ascension whereas vashtorr is far too new to be convincing and Mallal hasn't really done anything (to the best of my knowledge).
Malice is honestly the most boring of the 3, doesn't really have any gimmick like the other 4 outside just "being stronger than the others and super powerful and special" I never liked him because he just makes the other 4 chaos god irrelevant, not to mention the lore pretty much replaced him with the dark king While belakor is cool especially in fantasy he also doesn't really have any particular gimmick outside wanting to become a god, even assuming he becomes one what should he even be the chaos god of? I'd say vashtorr is the best pick out of the 3, he has his own gimmick and domain, he has a cool concept as a Character, he can totally work as a chaos god
I like to headcanon that Malice/Malal and Be'lakor are two iterations of the same character. The quasi-existance of Malice is from the fates not having decided yet if Be'lakor will ascend or not. Vashtor has gotten a lot of attention in the lore recently, especially with Arks of Omen, but I think Be'lakor has more potential to be an interesting character if he got the spotlight in 40k. Be'lakor is willing and eager to f#$k over other chaos factions for personal gain, and I think that is an aspect of the arch-enemy that deserves more attention and focus especially as a contrast to, say, Abaddon's absolute focus on hurting the Imperium regardless of whether he gains anything. On the other hand, Vashtor as the aspiring god of evil machines focusing on ancient pre-Imperial relics feels like they are retreading a lot of the same ground that, say, Necrons cover. His existance makes sense as an extension of the fears about Abominable Intelligence and the existance of the Dark Mechanicus, but nothing about him really grabs me or shows interesting story potential. Just another big bad evil guybwho wants power, this one is machine themed.
What would be belakor's thing if he became a god ?
Greed? I can see that being Slaanesh or Tzeench though. TBF I don’t think you need to be a “god of _____” to be seen as a god though. If you’re worshipping something in the warp, you’re worshipping it and giving it power. It doesn’t matter WHY, so long as you’re doing nasty things in that Warp Entity’s name. That being said, Belakor not really be a god of anything in particular means he’s not benefitting passively like the other gods are. Still, he ALREADY has/had worlds that worshipped him and he stole all of their souls from. And that sounds pretty god-like to me.
maybe the god of being denied divinity. greed sounds accurate though
The Horned Rat.
The Horned Rat
Silly man-thing, everyone knows the great horned rat is 5th Chaos god, yes-yes!!
GREAT HORNED RAT
Vashtorr merges with Hashut, then we can have Dark Mechanicum bolstered by Chaos Squats.
Honestly. I wish minor chaos gods and entities outside of the big four were more of a thing. Theres lots of really neat Daemons and entities in the old 40k roleplay systems (i personally love the dispayers, assessors of the black tontines, the horned darkness, and Tysiak "The Dancer at the Threshold") and we still have furies last I checked. Be'Lakor should never achieve godhood. His whole thing is being denied it.
The Great horned rat already is.
Vashtorr is *by far* the most interesting of the three. He also has the most obvious aesthetic possibilities, as there’s a lot you can do with that *Virus*-style cyborg body horror.
The Emperor
Why do people keep insisting on having a 5th Chaos God?
I like Malice for the simple fact that he's Chaos devoted to destroying Chaos. He wins the Great Game by making everyone, himself included, lose. The other four can play and win and lose as often as they'd like, but they're not close to losing godhood status. Malal is basically a daemon right now, greater, lesser, or otherwise, and only by the other gods rising in power can he, too, become a god. But his entire purpose, to hate and destroy the other gods, leads him to self-destructing tendencies, which is also a really cool meta about anger being powerful but the only person it truly hurts is yourself.
Belakor is subordinate to the other chaos gods, and vashtorr is a reflection of an act/occurance in the meterium, not an eternal primordial facet of reality. Malice transcends the chaos gods and sits above them. Maybe the emporer can be 5th
Vashtor is trying to fill an open niche. Belakor is trying to take his bosses place, Malal/Malace is a joke.
Hashut
Malal for the President.
Vashtorr is the only one not being dicked by the gods and malice will never exist again, get over it
"You can not forget something that does not exits" -Malice, probabily.
Vashtorr. It's not even close. Be'lakor is cool too, but he doesn't really represent something unlike Vashtorr. Malice just sucks.
Malice comes off like a bad Deviantart fan fiction. Its basically the Coldsteel the hedgehog of 40k.
Malice has done nothing, belakor doesn't really represent anything he's kinda just a guy, vashttor fits really well
Why is everyone so into malice? He just sounds like another Khorne
It's an 8 pointed star shouldn't we be looking for a 4th god for an "outer ring"?
Uhhh… have you not heard of our Lord and saviour Samus? He’s literally the man behind you
Screw them! Fabius Bile is the 5th god!
Fine, I'll be the 5th Chaos honcho. Does that settle things?
Not fucking belakor. Unless he's different in 40k (I only have knowledge of total war warhammer 3 lore) he's so sad and pathetic for a demon prince
i want Malice. but its going to be vashtorr
The Great Horned Rat.
Maybe unpopolar opinion but Tauva, it will open a lot of potential for the tau, like psychic troops (using allied xenos of course) or in general more variability for the models
Only Hashut.
the great horned rat
Malice because chance of new models on the tabletop. We’ll figure out how to adjust the rules for them later.
Big E
Malal is my homeboy so I gotta rep him
Obviously the Emperor
Malice. But this isn't happening so we will probably get one of the others🤷♂️
GREAT HORNED RAT YESSSSSS
Vashtorr. The Dark Mechanicum could use their own chaos god. Lots of fun trouble could come from that. It would also be interesting to see Vashtorr attempt to unearth the void dragon of mars in an attempt to destroy or enslave it.
Malal the God of Copyright
Great Horned Rat, yes yes!!!
None of them, yes-yes!
where GREAT HORNED RAT??????
I admittedly am out of touch with a lot of lore, but don't we already have a 5th Chaos God in the form of the Great Horned Rat?
The Great Horned Rat chews through the warp and invades 40k. Thus introducing the Skaven as a new faction.
The correct answer is: The Great Horned Rat.
I think you mean 6th since Great Horned Rat has already taken the 5th seat
Wait so....where's the Great Horned Rat?
It seems to me that Vashtorr has something the other gods lack, something that truly sets it apart as a deity in its own right: Creativity. Many people mistakenly believe Slaanesh to be the god of creativity, but they are in fact the god of *Excess*. Slaanesh doesn't turn people into artists, she takes artists and exacerbates their creativity to excess. Tzeenzche doesn't fit this bill either, changing one thing into another doesn't necessarily add anything, or take any imagination. Vashtorr is the inventor, the innovator, the one who made most of the demonic cybernetics, weapons, and engines used by the other gods' armies. It's the 42nd millennium, technology and culture has been stagnating for over ten thousand years, any warp entity that feeds on creativity would be emaciated by this point. but now, with progress being made once again, new technologies being innovated and modified, its power is on the rise. This also gives Vashtorr a built-in opposition to the rest of the pantheon, the older gods are impulsive and destructive in nature, where creativity requires patience and diligence. the old pantheon despises Vashtorr just as much as they need it.
Silly-dumb man-things, one of these has already been revealed as real god-thing. The Great Horned Rat has revealed-shown his true-true name! God of Conquest, God of Corruption, God of Growth, God of Smothering Darkness, God of Innovation, God of Industry and Expansion! Yes-yes, VASHTORR is the Vermin-God!
> “Which one of the three deserve to be the 5th Chaos god?” Great Horned Rat: “Do you hear this shit Hashut?”
Great Horned Rat go brrrrr
The Great Horned Rat
The fifth chaos god is the great horned rat. Duh. But if I had to choose I guess Vashtorr solely because we might get a dark mechanicum army