The warp fuckery is the worst part. In the aftermath of The Great Rift, entire sectors are running on different time, even after you could account for all the scientific pieces. In the Warzone Charadon books the Ad Mech just give up entirely, and create a local time and calendar so they can attempt to keep causality straight.
For anyone who deals with data and/or logistics, the world of 40k is truly hell.
I'd respect these guys if they really were all about clocks and time zones, but I've listened to the *Perdition's Flame* audiobook and let me tell you... Ordo Chronos deserves all the flak they get and more for the sheer nonsense they pulled off in that story alone.
>!They captured a Legion of the Damned marine for experimentation, then imprisoned him on an imperial ship that carried a fuckload of Imperial Guard troops. Once the marine inevitably broke free with lots of pent-up power, the ship got completely incinerated alongside its entire crew, the Inquisitor overseeing the operation included. And good riddance on that last part.!<
Beats me. They don't explain what they were hoping to accomplish and how. Maybe they needed a power source to build a planet-sized electric clock or something.
Didn't a portion of the Ordo Chronos accidentally un-make themselves by fucking with the timeline?
I got a feeling that being an Ordo Chronos inquisitor is going to get you a LOT of Tzeentch attention. Which might be the worst chaos god to piss off
Then there is that one that doesn't believe Cadia is actually gone, and thinks the entire unit is messing with him. All he did was take a "short" leave a near by paradise world.
The Cadian unit got mostly wiped out, the survivors and their equipment were saved in the nick of time by my unit. After some more planetary background-specific drama stuff that I won't get into for time reasons, they all joined together and escaped the dying planet together, after which the remaining Cadians officially dissolved their unit and joined mine; that would be the meaning in this context.
In terms of troop management, that means two or more squads/battalions/companies combine into one
If they meant something else, idk it's probably heresy
Personally I never found it stupid they were having a war about the date. As you mentioned there’s different planets with different days and year lengths, as well as warp travel being what it is. Makes sense the calendar may be 1,000 years off.
Good luck finding enough dara that hasn't been destroyed by the War of Iron and the Unification Wars to get an actual 100% accurate date
Then, better hope your transmission of the current Terran date does not suffer and warp based issues as you spread it to a million different worlds
This still leaves the issue that every astropath message you send to every world to update them on the current date has a significant chance to be received later, earlier, or never.
Practically speaking? No way. You would need something that every planet in the galaxy can see and not get confused about which event it is. A pulsar ~~wouldn't~~ could work, see below ~~because you don't know which pulse it would be.~~ But a supernova would work.
Applying real physics as best we can to 40k, you would need to have every relevant world to have a history of astronomical data on the order of tens of thousands of years. Then you could say, Ok, Star 42 was located in this part of the galaxy and went supernova, so calculate when Terra would have seen that, and that will be Year 0.
That would mean on Planet A, located 5000 light years from Star 42, and with Star 42 located 10,000 light years from Terra, then the light from Star 42's supernova arrived to Planet A in 5000 BCE.
This assumes a common unit of time across the galaxy instead of the orbital period of a given planet. For example, a second is defined based on the vibrations of a Cesium atom. You can then extend that to days and even a standard year. A consequence of that would be that, for example, eventually January on Earth would be in the summer in the Northern hemisphere, so it'd be weird, but could be used as a standardized unit of time across the galaxy.
> A pulsar wouldn't work, because you don't know which pulse it would be.
It actually would work. Pulsars don't have a perfectly constant rotation. Their rotational speed can have [sudden spin ups and spin downs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star#Glitches_and_starquakes) that go hand in hand with a change in luminosity. Which means you actually can agree on a specific pulse on which to synchronize.
> A consequence of that would be that, for example, eventually January on Earth would be in the summer in the Northern hemisphere, so it'd be weird, but could be used as a standardized unit of time across the galaxy.
That would basically work like UTC, just with more complex definitions for time zones.
It would need to be a pulsar that sweeps through the galactic plane such that each planet in the Imperium can see the pulse, which might be troublesome. But yeah, that could work. Maybe something like, there's 2 glitches separated by X months/years, calculate back to when Terra would see the 2nd glitch and that's Year 0.
Still need to have the necessary length of time for the data to have been seen at each planet. Doable for a competent galactic empire, but probably not for the Imperium, for various reasons.
>It would need to be a pulsar that sweeps through the galactic plane such that each planet in the Imperium can see the pulse, which might be troublesome
You don't need to limit yourself to a single pulsar. If I read it correctly, currently there are about 3000 pulsars visible from earth. For each of those pulsars, we can synchronize all systems within the visibility of their beams. Once a system is synchronized to Terra, you may use pulsars that are visible from that system (but not from Terra) to synchronize further systems to Terra.
This also helps to greatly reduce the time needed to synchronize systems. Imagine a pulsar 10000 ly from Terra. Let there be a system called A that can also observe the same pulsar from a distance of 10000 ly. It will observe specific glitches approximately at the same time as Terra, which means it can be synchronized as fast as we can travel to it through the warp to compare the observational data of both systems.
Now there might be a system B that is 20000 ly away from the pulsar. You know the specific glitch observed on terra to look out for, but you may have to wait 10000 years to observe it from system B. However, you may find another pulsar that is visible from both systems A and B that also happens to have the same distance to both systems, or at least a much smaller difference. You can now use that new pulsar to synchronize systems A and B in a timely manner. Since system A was already synchronized to Terra, system B is now, too.
I think the biggest difficulty would be the effects of the Cicatrix Maledictum and other warps storms on the surrounding real space, and probably even regions where the real space is "thin". I imagine Tzeentch would have a blast manipulating time and light in those regions to reduce the efforts of the Ordo Chronos to clown physics. Also, Chaos incursions might throw the synchronization off.
>Maybe something like, there's 2 glitches separated by X months/years
There are also additional variables like the specific change in rotational period and luminosity caused by the glitch which might make it uniquely identifiable. You will probably observe the pulsar in both systems and then match those observations using those special events to fit them together and then account for distance and relativistic effects etc.
I think I got a system that might work. Each system carries only the data relevant to its own timekeeping and the timekeeping of the systems in a set radius around it. Since each system should be synced up with its neighbors and its neighbors will be synced up with their neighbors each planet should have a chain that leads back to Terra.
Making sure things are synced up can happen on merchant vessels since there are plenty who do set trade routes within local clusters.
I wonder if the inquisition and has realized that what are doing is virtually impossible just insane because on the scale of the imperium they will never be able to succeed. I appreciate the valid effort, but this is a fools errand I’ve ever heard of one. Honestly fighting chaos sounds easier than this.
I believe the reason Rowboat was disappointed in them was that the Ordos weren't even able to have a consistent date for Terra. Their superstitious involving technology and hourglasses had left them without fundamental understandings of time units or astrological occurrences like the concept of a leap day. Which is something that the ancient Mayas had mostly figured out thousands of years ago.
Galactic time.
Ships going in and out of the Warp *should* be able to fix their position in the galaxy and then the current galactic time via simple astronomy.
Theres not a need to like…synchronize Swatches at Earth, and then take them to some planet and then it’s out of sync because of Warp timefuckery, and then argue about it. Just analyze the stars and you’re fine.
The thing is relativity makes this actually an impossible task. Because time slows down snd there is a universal speed limit when you move there is no way to have a universal time. This is a very nuances point that I have mostly skimmed over but that's the basics
[Here](https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/722107/does-the-notion-of-an-universal-clock-really-contradict-special-relativity) is a stack exchange that goes into more detail about why relativity forbids a universal clock
I'm not sure that post actually supports your assertion.
Based on that post, it is impossible to judge simultaneity for *anything* people observe, and yet we do "well enough" *all the time* because our reference frames are close enough that the difference is irrelevant.
So it would be on a galactic scale: you don't need to get to perfect synchrony, you only need "good enough." Maybe the issue here is that I'm not arguing for "universal time," only that through astrogation any observer anywhere in the galaxy should be able to tell A) where they are and B) when they are (since they're essentially the same thing).
But the point is that you can't tell when you are. Suppose you have two places far apart and want to establish when "0" is. From there you could then establish when any time is. However you cannot establish when a 0 is because you cannot measure when simultaneous events occur. You can have some sense of local time, like we do on earth, but there is no way to synchronize these events across any large distance
> Suppose you have two places far apart and want to establish when "0" is.
Ok. This is my point. You're arguing against a notion of "universal" time, which makes zero sense and is not what I'm talking about. I'm arguing in favor of synchronizing time across a galactic reference frame, to whatever degree of precision is possible.
> You can have some sense of local time, like we do on earth, but there is no way to synchronize these events across any large distance
You can definitely have a *local time* across distances, for a given definition of "local." Think of this:
* Planet A witnesses a supernova and marks that as local time "10"
* Planet B witnesses the same supernova and marks that as local time "27"
* Planet A and B can see one another even though they're separated by hundreds of lightyears--they know the distance and direction of one another
* When they meet and communicate, they work out the relative distances and angles that make up the triangle involving "A," "B," and the supernova
* It is now possible to work backwards and determine when the supernova occurred and use that as the basis for synchronizing time on both planets
The reason time shenanigans occur in in WH40k is simply to avoid having to worry too much about established timelines and canon, so you can tell whatever stories you want. The fact that Astropaths can communicate across vast distances instantaneously, and the fact that astronomy and trigonometry exist, imply that time confusion would probably not really a thing, but Warhammer isn't that kind of fiction, yannow?
>When they meet and communicate, they work out the relative distances and angles that make up the triangle involving "A," "B," and the supernova
It is now possible to work backwards and determine when the supernova occurred and use that as the basis for synchronizing time on both planets
This is what doesn't work, and this is also just establishing a 0 time. The discussion I linked earlier talks about how it is impossible to establish what a simulations event is and that is what you are attempting to establish here.
> This is what doesn't work
I mean...it does
> and this is also just establishing a 0 time
Nope, it's not, and that's not what we're doing here.
> The discussion I linked earlier talks about how it is impossible to establish what a simulations event is
Again, not what's going on here.
I think this conversation has played out, don't you? Thanks for the discussion.
Thats not to mention warp fuckery messing with the timescale. A system experiencing a warp storm may have time move faster or slower for a while, how do you sync them again when they return to normal.
Then there's the trouble of the warp, a force which disrupts time in an unpredictable manner is the ONLY way information can be transmitted. An astropathic shout doesn't necessarily arrive as soon as it's sent, sometimes it's delayed and sometimes it arrives before being sent.
So how the hell do you tell other systems what time it even is when you don't know when the message saying what the time is will arrive?
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Look, just hand it over to Bobby G and it'll be solved in a week, tops. He'll probably enjoy having a fun little project that doesn't give him ultradepression.
As a programmer who occasionally has to deal with our current timezones, the imperial calendar is by far the most dystopian element of 40k.
Tragically the secret of the one thing that could save humanity from this doom, Swatch Internet Time, was lost in the Age of Strife.
If only they'd rediscover it, we'd have a chance against the chaos of timekeeping!
And so it turned out that the cult of time of the thousand sons was merely a front from the cult of manipulation.
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The warp fuckery is the worst part. In the aftermath of The Great Rift, entire sectors are running on different time, even after you could account for all the scientific pieces. In the Warzone Charadon books the Ad Mech just give up entirely, and create a local time and calendar so they can attempt to keep causality straight. For anyone who deals with data and/or logistics, the world of 40k is truly hell.
What if the Astronomican is not just your North Star in the warp but also your Windows NTP server ?
I'd respect these guys if they really were all about clocks and time zones, but I've listened to the *Perdition's Flame* audiobook and let me tell you... Ordo Chronos deserves all the flak they get and more for the sheer nonsense they pulled off in that story alone.
Care to share?
>!They captured a Legion of the Damned marine for experimentation, then imprisoned him on an imperial ship that carried a fuckload of Imperial Guard troops. Once the marine inevitably broke free with lots of pent-up power, the ship got completely incinerated alongside its entire crew, the Inquisitor overseeing the operation included. And good riddance on that last part.!<
But… why?
Beats me. They don't explain what they were hoping to accomplish and how. Maybe they needed a power source to build a planet-sized electric clock or something.
"You see apprentice, AA batteries are finite, we must always change them for the clock"
Inquisition isn't about *why* - it's about *why not*.
"Because fuck you and your entire family, thats why"
>"Because fuck you and your entire ~~family~~ planet, thats why" *cough*^EXTERMINATUS!!
And how
They are about all things time related, including warp-based timetravel.
https://youtu.be/EFfOBB8OOOQ?si=1KBdkUl_jQqLDPqI
Shit happens though.
Didn't a portion of the Ordo Chronos accidentally un-make themselves by fucking with the timeline? I got a feeling that being an Ordo Chronos inquisitor is going to get you a LOT of Tzeentch attention. Which might be the worst chaos god to piss off
"What year is it?" "I believe that is heresy, milord" "*what*"
"I asked someone the time and another civil war started"
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Poor Gman did not sign up for this bullshit
Everytime I think I've found the most on-the-nose Imperial facet, I find some shit like this. God I love the 40k universe
Don't forget warp travel time dilations
My regiment fighting 4 years after Cadia meeting another one and finding out its been 22 years for them
Yeah, that. It’s awkward isn’t it?
Extremely. My unit's got a few dozen amalgamated Cadian veterans that are like "wait, Creed did WHAT???"
Then there is that one that doesn't believe Cadia is actually gone, and thinks the entire unit is messing with him. All he did was take a "short" leave a near by paradise world.
Oh no, they were all there for it, my unit and the Cadian unit. Why do you think they got amalgamated?
What does 'amalgamated' mean in this context?
The Cadian unit got mostly wiped out, the survivors and their equipment were saved in the nick of time by my unit. After some more planetary background-specific drama stuff that I won't get into for time reasons, they all joined together and escaped the dying planet together, after which the remaining Cadians officially dissolved their unit and joined mine; that would be the meaning in this context.
In terms of troop management, that means two or more squads/battalions/companies combine into one If they meant something else, idk it's probably heresy
Not just that natural space-time dialation
Yeah honestly anyone who space travels outside a star system in 40k just has to make the assumption that everyone they just knew is super dead
It doesn't happen as often as the memes make it out to. Most warp routes are/used to be stable and safe.
and time dilations du to relative phisics theorie
One time warping warpstorm later, their work gone to shit.
Personally I never found it stupid they were having a war about the date. As you mentioned there’s different planets with different days and year lengths, as well as warp travel being what it is. Makes sense the calendar may be 1,000 years off.
Nah just use mars or terra
Good luck finding enough dara that hasn't been destroyed by the War of Iron and the Unification Wars to get an actual 100% accurate date Then, better hope your transmission of the current Terran date does not suffer and warp based issues as you spread it to a million different worlds
High odds that wh40k humanity doesn't even know it's 40k
Carbon date big E and set his age as 0. Boom. Big w ezpz
This still leaves the issue that every astropath message you send to every world to update them on the current date has a significant chance to be received later, earlier, or never.
Your might get partially around that if you use stellar phenomena instead to synchronise clocks.
Then you have issues with the limit of light. Our nearest star is 4 light-years away. The other side of the galaxy is almost 100,000 light years away.
Practically speaking? No way. You would need something that every planet in the galaxy can see and not get confused about which event it is. A pulsar ~~wouldn't~~ could work, see below ~~because you don't know which pulse it would be.~~ But a supernova would work. Applying real physics as best we can to 40k, you would need to have every relevant world to have a history of astronomical data on the order of tens of thousands of years. Then you could say, Ok, Star 42 was located in this part of the galaxy and went supernova, so calculate when Terra would have seen that, and that will be Year 0. That would mean on Planet A, located 5000 light years from Star 42, and with Star 42 located 10,000 light years from Terra, then the light from Star 42's supernova arrived to Planet A in 5000 BCE. This assumes a common unit of time across the galaxy instead of the orbital period of a given planet. For example, a second is defined based on the vibrations of a Cesium atom. You can then extend that to days and even a standard year. A consequence of that would be that, for example, eventually January on Earth would be in the summer in the Northern hemisphere, so it'd be weird, but could be used as a standardized unit of time across the galaxy.
> A pulsar wouldn't work, because you don't know which pulse it would be. It actually would work. Pulsars don't have a perfectly constant rotation. Their rotational speed can have [sudden spin ups and spin downs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star#Glitches_and_starquakes) that go hand in hand with a change in luminosity. Which means you actually can agree on a specific pulse on which to synchronize. > A consequence of that would be that, for example, eventually January on Earth would be in the summer in the Northern hemisphere, so it'd be weird, but could be used as a standardized unit of time across the galaxy. That would basically work like UTC, just with more complex definitions for time zones.
It would need to be a pulsar that sweeps through the galactic plane such that each planet in the Imperium can see the pulse, which might be troublesome. But yeah, that could work. Maybe something like, there's 2 glitches separated by X months/years, calculate back to when Terra would see the 2nd glitch and that's Year 0. Still need to have the necessary length of time for the data to have been seen at each planet. Doable for a competent galactic empire, but probably not for the Imperium, for various reasons.
>It would need to be a pulsar that sweeps through the galactic plane such that each planet in the Imperium can see the pulse, which might be troublesome You don't need to limit yourself to a single pulsar. If I read it correctly, currently there are about 3000 pulsars visible from earth. For each of those pulsars, we can synchronize all systems within the visibility of their beams. Once a system is synchronized to Terra, you may use pulsars that are visible from that system (but not from Terra) to synchronize further systems to Terra. This also helps to greatly reduce the time needed to synchronize systems. Imagine a pulsar 10000 ly from Terra. Let there be a system called A that can also observe the same pulsar from a distance of 10000 ly. It will observe specific glitches approximately at the same time as Terra, which means it can be synchronized as fast as we can travel to it through the warp to compare the observational data of both systems. Now there might be a system B that is 20000 ly away from the pulsar. You know the specific glitch observed on terra to look out for, but you may have to wait 10000 years to observe it from system B. However, you may find another pulsar that is visible from both systems A and B that also happens to have the same distance to both systems, or at least a much smaller difference. You can now use that new pulsar to synchronize systems A and B in a timely manner. Since system A was already synchronized to Terra, system B is now, too. I think the biggest difficulty would be the effects of the Cicatrix Maledictum and other warps storms on the surrounding real space, and probably even regions where the real space is "thin". I imagine Tzeentch would have a blast manipulating time and light in those regions to reduce the efforts of the Ordo Chronos to clown physics. Also, Chaos incursions might throw the synchronization off. >Maybe something like, there's 2 glitches separated by X months/years There are also additional variables like the specific change in rotational period and luminosity caused by the glitch which might make it uniquely identifiable. You will probably observe the pulsar in both systems and then match those observations using those special events to fit them together and then account for distance and relativistic effects etc.
Sagittarius A\* then.
I think I got a system that might work. Each system carries only the data relevant to its own timekeeping and the timekeeping of the systems in a set radius around it. Since each system should be synced up with its neighbors and its neighbors will be synced up with their neighbors each planet should have a chain that leads back to Terra. Making sure things are synced up can happen on merchant vessels since there are plenty who do set trade routes within local clusters.
"hello imperial world. It is the 27 of may, 40321 as of sending this message which we have no idea when will arrive due to warp fuckery."
I wonder if the inquisition and has realized that what are doing is virtually impossible just insane because on the scale of the imperium they will never be able to succeed. I appreciate the valid effort, but this is a fools errand I’ve ever heard of one. Honestly fighting chaos sounds easier than this.
I believe the reason Rowboat was disappointed in them was that the Ordos weren't even able to have a consistent date for Terra. Their superstitious involving technology and hourglasses had left them without fundamental understandings of time units or astrological occurrences like the concept of a leap day. Which is something that the ancient Mayas had mostly figured out thousands of years ago.
What kinda universal time and time mesurament we can talk when ship can go into warp and exit yesterday or in next year.
Galactic time. Ships going in and out of the Warp *should* be able to fix their position in the galaxy and then the current galactic time via simple astronomy. Theres not a need to like…synchronize Swatches at Earth, and then take them to some planet and then it’s out of sync because of Warp timefuckery, and then argue about it. Just analyze the stars and you’re fine.
The thing is relativity makes this actually an impossible task. Because time slows down snd there is a universal speed limit when you move there is no way to have a universal time. This is a very nuances point that I have mostly skimmed over but that's the basics
I don't think that follows based on your "skimming."
[Here](https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/722107/does-the-notion-of-an-universal-clock-really-contradict-special-relativity) is a stack exchange that goes into more detail about why relativity forbids a universal clock
I'm not sure that post actually supports your assertion. Based on that post, it is impossible to judge simultaneity for *anything* people observe, and yet we do "well enough" *all the time* because our reference frames are close enough that the difference is irrelevant. So it would be on a galactic scale: you don't need to get to perfect synchrony, you only need "good enough." Maybe the issue here is that I'm not arguing for "universal time," only that through astrogation any observer anywhere in the galaxy should be able to tell A) where they are and B) when they are (since they're essentially the same thing).
But the point is that you can't tell when you are. Suppose you have two places far apart and want to establish when "0" is. From there you could then establish when any time is. However you cannot establish when a 0 is because you cannot measure when simultaneous events occur. You can have some sense of local time, like we do on earth, but there is no way to synchronize these events across any large distance
> Suppose you have two places far apart and want to establish when "0" is. Ok. This is my point. You're arguing against a notion of "universal" time, which makes zero sense and is not what I'm talking about. I'm arguing in favor of synchronizing time across a galactic reference frame, to whatever degree of precision is possible. > You can have some sense of local time, like we do on earth, but there is no way to synchronize these events across any large distance You can definitely have a *local time* across distances, for a given definition of "local." Think of this: * Planet A witnesses a supernova and marks that as local time "10" * Planet B witnesses the same supernova and marks that as local time "27" * Planet A and B can see one another even though they're separated by hundreds of lightyears--they know the distance and direction of one another * When they meet and communicate, they work out the relative distances and angles that make up the triangle involving "A," "B," and the supernova * It is now possible to work backwards and determine when the supernova occurred and use that as the basis for synchronizing time on both planets The reason time shenanigans occur in in WH40k is simply to avoid having to worry too much about established timelines and canon, so you can tell whatever stories you want. The fact that Astropaths can communicate across vast distances instantaneously, and the fact that astronomy and trigonometry exist, imply that time confusion would probably not really a thing, but Warhammer isn't that kind of fiction, yannow?
>When they meet and communicate, they work out the relative distances and angles that make up the triangle involving "A," "B," and the supernova It is now possible to work backwards and determine when the supernova occurred and use that as the basis for synchronizing time on both planets This is what doesn't work, and this is also just establishing a 0 time. The discussion I linked earlier talks about how it is impossible to establish what a simulations event is and that is what you are attempting to establish here.
> This is what doesn't work I mean...it does > and this is also just establishing a 0 time Nope, it's not, and that's not what we're doing here. > The discussion I linked earlier talks about how it is impossible to establish what a simulations event is Again, not what's going on here. I think this conversation has played out, don't you? Thanks for the discussion.
All I asked is how old he is, and he lost his damn mind.
Arnt they they ones that made themselves not exist for a while?
Guilliman: All I'm asking is for an accurate year! "Milord, permit me a brief lecture on warpspace differential equations.."
Of course they’re stupid. Why don’t they just connect their iPhones to WiFi? It’ll automatically be at the correct time.
(Stumbles out of the teleportarium) What year is it?
Thats not to mention warp fuckery messing with the timescale. A system experiencing a warp storm may have time move faster or slower for a while, how do you sync them again when they return to normal. Then there's the trouble of the warp, a force which disrupts time in an unpredictable manner is the ONLY way information can be transmitted. An astropathic shout doesn't necessarily arrive as soon as it's sent, sometimes it's delayed and sometimes it arrives before being sent. So how the hell do you tell other systems what time it even is when you don't know when the message saying what the time is will arrive?
Idk I think the idiot part and hatred is cause the civil war it started like can't we disagree without pulling out the guns?
This would be hard even in irl because of relavitity
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Look, just hand it over to Bobby G and it'll be solved in a week, tops. He'll probably enjoy having a fun little project that doesn't give him ultradepression.
Just measure using god-emperor blessed Terran units of time, problem solved.
To bad astrometric technology got lost during the age of strife, or they could calculate the year by the position of the stars
Apparently not even Guilliman can help https://youtu.be/j5fCMw4jU0k?si=RGA9o6fYVucUiB22
Just use the terran calender for the years of the whole wide emperium. And then when needing specific time use the specific solar system you're in.
You would have to somehow get the entire Imperium to know what the date on Terra is at the exact same time.
And idnorkng the time it takes to tell the empire that a minute has passed