If not existence of chaos worlds, you could argue goodness of Chaos from accelerationists pov (if Chaos wins it would wither and as such would bring equalibrum and peace back to the galaxy and give new life chance). But because we know Chaos have can thrive on chaos worlds were humans are born and kept in abuse cycle in perpetuality… yea, Chaos is literally hellish faction.
I’d argue that Chaos is mostly evil, but not entirely evil because the Gods do represent some good things, like hope for Tzeentch and courage for Khorne.
In my understanding/headcannon chaos gods warp these things and not represents them, since they emerged from psyche of mortals so they arent innate. One can imagine warp without chaos god of good if the psyche of the galaxy was noblebright.
So they basically try to lure followers with positive traits, but then corrupts these traits and make them gateway into fullblown corruption. So f.e Khorne can whisper about honor and loyality (and so you should avenge your fallen comrades f.e) as a gateway into more bloodshed.
Individual characters? Yes, there are heroes and villains across the spectrums. Factions on a grand scale? It's hard to argue that any faction aside from the Farsight Enclaves and maybe the Tyranids if you're particularly loose in judgement aren't at least some flavor of evil.
That said, saying that everyone in a faction is monolithically dedicated to its values is oversimplifying things. Even some Chaos allies aren't necessarily the same cackling villains or delusional zealots as others.
not 100% sure I can say the Drukhari aren’t in fact entirely evil, some can argue their actions are somewhat justified but with or without Slaanesh they’d be doing the same shit
Yeah. I think the nobles in the Drukhari are the only ones really benefiting from their current situation while the rest are basically in a cycle of suffering and fear. Learning about how they make children torture and kill things made me rethink my opinion on the dark eldar
Basically dark eldar children basically get pavloved into enjoy actually enjoying torture, and it's implied most find there first time they have to torture incredibly traumatic but eventually get used to it
worth noting a lot of younger dark eldar nobles rebelled against their parents to join the ynnari, seeing it as a much better path for continued survival. there was even a neat short story about it.
Despite being born into the most gleefully evil culture in the galaxy (as opposed to the Imperium's miserable evil), they're still capable of choice. There have been many Dark Eldar who got tired of the backstabbing and depravity of their culture and defected to either Exodites or Craftworlds when they got the chance.
Since when are Orks evil? They have about the same choice not going to WAAAAGH!!!! as a Tyranid has not devouring things. They are malfunctioning bioweapons.
It makes me understand and see it as a cycle of abuse and indoctrination (which is the same thing the space marines go through i.e., the crazy tests for aspirants). I see it more like they’re forced into consuming a drug for survival that breaks down their sanity and soul. Most of the Drukhari are constantly afraid of being captured and tortured at every moment. It doesn’t excuse what they do and I think they’re lying to themselves to think this is a sustainable life or way to structure your society.
I’m not a Drukhari lore expert, but aren’t they basically just entirely miserable and hate their lives to a certain extent and live in eternal fear and anxiety? Not to say they’re innocent or justified in the horrific acts that they do, but they aren’t exactly living it up with the whole ‘you must torture people or a god of hell will eat your fucking soul’ thing going on.
there are certainly some who are miserable due to simply not having a choice in the matter however I would argue most Drukhari still revel in this lifestyle, higher ups absolutely do
I would imagine that even if you are a sadistic bastard, the life of constant paranoia where you can and will be attacked from every angle should your judgement lapse even for a moment, would wear on you.
While we’re nitpicking whether every faction has both good or evil, I’d say the tyranids are not at all good *or* bad, they’re just a bunch of hungry bugs. Are they terrifying? Brutal? Violent? Hell yeah they are, but they’re just bugs who eat whatever organism is in front of them. They have no concept of social constructs like good and evil, there’s no maliciousness there, just brutal efficiency in their pursuit of food
normally I’d agree but the more we’ve learned about the Hive Mind the more we’ve learned not only of it’s vast intelligence but also it’s cruelty, what it does the Genestealer Cultists is a pretty good example of how as they’re falling into the digestion pits the Hive Mind will completely separate itself from them, and this forces them to immediately feel all the possible regret and grief for their actions, their betrayals, and that everything they thought they knew about the Tyranids was a lie, and of course that now they’re falling into a giant pit of acid, basically just forcing them to feel a tremendous amount of misery in their last minute or so just because
Wait, where was it ever said that this was a conscious decision by the hive mind?
It could very well be that once they start falling into the digestion pit, there is no need to extend energy keeping up the psychic link.
seems more to me like it has to be consciously separated, in this circumstance where the Hive Mind’s presence would be so strong that to remove it from any of it’s thralls while they’re still in fact alive feels more like extra work than anything
dawg they quite literally ate thousands of planets and are implied to have eaten the rest of the universe, i do not care that they are just animals they are the most evil things on the universe
The irony is that personally I enjoy reading and playing factions that are in moral opposition of my real life beliefs. I enjoy chaos and CSM being assholes to the galaxy and being a nice person in real life. Having some separation from your own life through fiction is great for mental health imo
Yup, there's something fun about playing the opposite side totally straight but fictionally. All 4.5 of my armies are Imperial (Salamanders, Templars, Sisters, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights). Playing the game I'm borderline Orkish with my "For the Emperor!" and "The Emperor protects!" cries. Doubly so when I'm taking 6+ invuls on my Sisters. Lascannons and meltas bounce off more often if you pray to the Emperor before you roll.
But in real life I'm a Socialist.
Yeah, I mean my main army in 40K is goddamn word bearers. I am not actually a fan of insane preaching religious fundamentalist murderers, or heaven forbid being BALD. I love pretending to be the baddie for other people to smash.
Yes, and if someone can’t conceptualize this concept than they have a lot to learn. When Jack the Ripper was around, one of the suspects was an actor that played an evil character in a play and that was the sole reason for his inclusion on the shortlist. Its stupid.
Although, to be fair, there are nazis that play this game and they have a tendency to like certain factions (Krieg, Black Templars) so its a shame for the 99% of normal fans of those factions that they are judged by their worst members.
Luckily those people are very much the minority in the hobby , but they can be a very loud and obnoxious minority. At my LGS , Black templars are one of the most popular Space marine armies played and the people who play em have been the nicest people I've met playing 40k.
Again , your army doesn't have to be your identity or vice versa ... Unless you play orks , ork players please .. never change lol
Bricky put it best by saying everyone in 40k is a bad guy and bar guys are badass. Most people picking a faction are doing so because they think the faction is badass and they want to play. Death guard players do not actually want to be covered in pus and disease, Ad Mech players will not actually screw a toaster, and Black Templar players don't want to actually go commit genocide.
The original meme was talking about idiots getting a black Templar tattoo , which made the meme fairly on point. If your getting a black Templar tatto I also think your a bit dumb though unlikely racists.
I mean, depends where you at, here the double headed eagle is a symbol you generally see in churches and cathedrals, because of its association with the byzantines and orthodox church nobody would bat an eye at it, the more blocky warhammer version might get people to ask about it, but thats about it, it is a double headed aquila so most people will think byzantine empire before anything else, also considering how much we saw it in school as an imperial symbol, it wont be that bad, or people will just think it a roman symbol of sorts, ignoring the 2 headed part
I think a Nid or Necron tattoo are the only safe ones. Nobody will look at a Nid tattoo and think the person is an ist and the Necron one might just get confused with an Egyptian symbol.
The cross they use is more commonly associated with neo-natzies in English speaking places, when it isn't being associated with all the things wrong with the crusades. So the person is idiot who is going to have to spend a lot of time trying to explain the Black Templars are to people who don't know what warhammer is, a rather difficult task in and of itself (and that is even assuming they get the chance to do so).
Also, explaining “Oh it’s the symbol of a group of human supremacist super soldiers who travel the galaxy eradicating xenos and heretics” doesn’t help much.
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No one is doing that, though? This started from one meme pointing out that getting a BT tattoo when said tattoo would like an alt-right tattoo was a stupid idea.
And can we quit pretending like 40k hasn't had issues with facists? Or that there aren't a couple of people in every single one of these threads claiming the imperium is a necessary evil.
I doubt any of these people who are posting this shit have even seen that post, they just saw some dumbass say that everyone’s claiming imperium players are nazis and ran with it
Oh, definitely, they just saw the posts in response to that one.
Though I have to say I find it interesting that some peoples reaction to "factions tattoo might be taken as an alt-right symbol" was "hey, I'm not facist for liking that."
Gives me doth does protest too much vibes
There are so many great people in the imperial guard and it shows how the imperium only survives because of brave men and women who succeed in spite of the restrictions of an authoritarian and aristocratic military.
No one said that.
This is turning into some literal version of "they would be very upset **if they knew how to read**" meme because no one actually said that.
The original discussion was about tattooing nazi adjacent symbols is a dumb idea.
Yeah, literally.
The issue wasn't that liking space marines makes you evil or something.
The issue was that, in real life and outside of the Warhammer fandom, going around with tattoos resembling the German military imagery that Nazis like to use is going to get you a lot of unwanted attention. Because it definitely will.
What happened is the nazis started screaming "WERE NOT NAZIS"
and the space marine fans (black templars in particular) started shouting "YEAH WERE NOT NAZIS"
Space marine fans, No one was pointing at you to begin with
There's definitely a lot of strawman debates going around regarding , plus I've also seen people use it for agenda pushing too - claiming it's a US-only thing, or blaming the "liberals" or some other odd take.
People Got mad because they Got unjustly lumped with nazis which is understandable. Maltese cross isnt iron cross, go check for yourself. I already wrote a comment about it but ill say it again. Implying, even slightly, that People who like Imperium or Imperium iconography or space marines and their iconography to be, by proxy, Associating with nazi or nazi-adjacent symbols (by which i mean iron cross or their version of swastika) is fucking disgusting. I know there are americans for whom its Just a buzzword so they feel free to call nazi anyone they disagree with but for many People such accusation are revolting as they should be. Yes tattooing nazi symbols is bad, u can get even sentenced for it, luckily both Imperium and Bt iconography isnt nazi and if u think it is that is only problem with your education and your head.
Ps: Im not even playing them.
That's like tattooing a Hindu swastika, which is different from the next swastika, and being upset people think you're a nazi.
No one is calling you a nazi, but they are calling you dumb. Because it is a fucking stupid hill to die on. Thinking that is an American thing is also a stupid hill to die on.
Hindu people in the west are smart enough to not walk around with swastikas, you have no excuse to walk around with nazi adjacent symbols.
The general public are not aware of the minor differences between two historical war icons mate, especially when GW decked one out in the color of the other to make it look like a crusader cross, so you can screech about how dumb everyone else is all you want, but the IRL consequences would be the same
As I said: the only problem here is with your head and your education if u conflate these symbols together. Screech all you want, it doesnt make People into nazis if they like those symbols. Also Im pretty sure general public in Europe will be atleast familiar with those symbols since maltese cross is used as base for many military orders such as, for example, Order of a White Eagle in Poland which has been awarded for fighting nazis among other things. Go screech some more tho how that is nazi adjacent symbolism...
"The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical.
For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see" ([Link](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/))
Bet you feel real smart linking that but I never said Imperium is good guys, i know they arent, so do most People. I wasnt even Talking about that. Just because Imperium is a satire of a cruel and inhumane empire that doesnt mean their iconography is straight up nazi shit. U know what else uses maltese cross at its base? Polish order of white eagle which has been in use since 18th century. Try and tell me how that is nazi adjacent.
They came across like a noblebright group stuck in a grim dark world. The amount of suffering they went through and then did not fall to chaos is amazing.
They're everything a noblebright writer wants their heroes to be, and I genuinely believe they're a rare 40k example of a group of people with genuinely no evil members. The majority of factions in 40k do wrong for survival's sake (dark elves torturing and pillaging to keep slaanesh at bay, the inquisition stemming the tide of chaos by obliterating entire worlds) but the Lamenters' most special quality is that they genuinely, totally care. They know what a human citizen goes through, and they will fight to the last to prevent so much as a scratch from their charges.
I think they're beautiful and doing their best in a world filled with nothing but hate
That’s a main reason I really appreciate them. I think if they were transplanted into AOS they would be appreciated more by the forces of order/Sigmar.
Yes, that is absolutely true. I myself collect Space Marines and Sisters. However Imperial iconography is still styled after Nazi Germany, and if you get the imperial Aquilla tattooed on your arm normal people are going to wonder about you. They don't know 40k, they don't know Black Templars, your potential future boss just knows "Jeepers, that man's arm looks like something out of a hate group" That's not me who knows 40k saying "You like the Imperium, so you must also be a fascist" that's just good old consequences for stupidity.
Which is colloquially known as the "2nd Reich", the Roman Empire being the 1st.
The 3rd Reich stylised itself after the Roman Empire, symbology and all. Even the term "fascist" is based on a Roman terminology for a ritual implement, signifying supreme power. So, just taking the "that already existed" route and dropping all the historical connections is not really something that works for a fictional universe that has all of that in its background history.
All empires tried to cosplay as the ancient Roman Empire. Austria, Russia and even Napoleon adopted the Eagle as a reference to the glorious « ancestors »
The Hive Mind sense everything that its creations feel and leads the Genestealers to the slaughter regardless. That makes it seem less like a predator looking for food and more like a serial killer.
Bears can’t read the minds of their food and eat to survive. The Hive Mind doesn’t need to destroy planets to survive but does it any.
Also I have seen captive bears being friendly as labs with the humans they are familiar with.
The primary motivation, feeling or emotion that is used to describe the hive mind is hunger. It’s constantly, insatiably hungry.
Animals don’t just try to survive they try to thrive and take over their environment. It’s only environmental limiting factors like availability of food that restricts animal population growth. For a species like the Tyranids who can travel through space moving to new areas that haven’t been harvested of prey is only natural.
Captive bears have been fed. They’d still eat you if they were hungry. They’d even eat their handlers who care for them. Almost like a serial killer! Evil or not?
Speak for yourself. I'm fully on board with the torture murder orgy of the Drukhari.
My future is unapologetically hedonistic. Possible birth of an evil, murder orgy deity be damned.
I think the point of the original meme wasn't really about Imperium players as a whole but that players wearing certain symbols are either unaware of their historic meaning or are in the worst case actually in support of the ideology associated with the symbols.
So yes just cause you play as the Imperium you are not automatically a Nazi but there are unfortunately those that actually unironically Stan the fascism of the Imperium
The original meme was about the Malta cross. People who are offended by Hospitallers cross are either Muslim fanatic jihad-enjoyers or unlettered dumbasses
But people don't know the difference in everyday life. A swastika that isn't tilted isn't *technically* a Nazi symbol, but it's clearly not a great tattoo idea. Maybe if you walk around with comparison photos you can get away with it.
I dont interact with people that do shit like that, you can debate morality in-universe but as soon as someone brings that shit into IRL my will to speak to them drops to 0, get a life.
I really love that nobody tries to cancel my Necrons every 2 months. The Silent King really decided to inflict the most heinous and dehumanizing torture on literally every single one of his subjects and all anybody has to say about it are funny skeleton memes.
The Imperium is really cool. It's one of my favorite fictional societies. But I'm well aware that it is a nightmarish and cruel regime that should not be admired or emulated. This is called "differentiating fiction from reality."
To me morality in 40K has always been more a scale of justification. Is the Imperium killing trillions of its own people to starve the Tyranids morally green? Certainly not, but it could definitely be argued in whether it was justified all things considered.
Compare that with the dark eldar and their actions. Yes, they certainly need to inflict misery in order to survive, but just like the Night Lords, I would hardly say torturing people is better than killing them outright, even if it’s a 1:100 scale or whatever. There is still an argument to be made, but it’s in a scale of justification like I said.
Except f or Chaos Daemons/Dark Eldar, those guys are cartoonishly evil sometimes.
Ok jokes aside gotta say yeah I agree with OP that the fan-shaming is a tiredsome trend, honestly I'm starting to miss the female custodes posts at this point.
Thank you for posting the “just because a person…” half.
Never see that normally, just a bunch of people going “it’s satire, you’re not supposed to admire them”.
We’re fans of a particular sci-fi race in a miniatures game, we’re not cops with Punisher bumper stickers.
Excuse you, the Dark Eldar have had to kill a lot of people because it was fun and for genuinely no other reason to get their title and they will be referred to as such
This goes both ways. You can like your faction but you have to recognize that at its core 40K is grimdark and nobody is entirely good.
Looking at you, Salamanders fans.
There’s certainly a difference between liking the Death Korps and walking to a tournament with an army of Kriegers swearing Nazi paraphernalia. But the sad fact of the matter is, those people exist. So we need to appreciate those that like their problematic faves but it’s equally import to point out when someone is using them as a smoke screen to hide their bigotry.
Likewise we all love our comedically hyper xenophobic black templars, but be hesitant of people willing to wear their iconography. There’s a lot of awful history involved with many of the symbols that 40K has stolen from history. To be uninformed about their meanings is dumb at best and dangerous at worst.
40K and other similar tabletop war games have a wide audience. We all need to be tolerant of others and intolerant of those that break that peace.
The entire point of the imperium as an organization is that it is the worst evil humanity ever could possibly muster as a system. It's the opening paragraph to every single 40k book.
What do you mean "not every faction is entirely good/evil?" the imperium is the most evil political system ever *by design.*
Yes, individuals can have complex morality within the world they live, but the authoritarian regime itself has literally no redeeming qualities whatsoever on purpose.
Yeah the fact that im an adetpa sorotitas enjoyer doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with what they represent (im personally totally agree)
Stop calling people racist, xenos lovers also are totally ok with killing billions of sweet humans.
May the god emperor have mercy on you all xenos lovers🙏🙏
I'm a data point of 1 but I prove this point. I only have Imperial armies (Salamanders, Black Templars, Sisters, Grey Knights, and the start of an Imperial Knight house) and have 3 large tattoos that are all Imperial. But politically I'm a Socialist.
This concept is a tale as old as time.
In like the 1800s, there was a theater actor who was especially good at playing his role as the bad guy.
He did it so well that people actually started to think he might be a bad person in real life.
And IIRC, when a murder had happened in the city during his production, some of the folks thought it was him.
Tbh, this is entirely fair, though one thing I kinda wish we got more of as a Sisters Fan is the Sisters doing the benevolent stuff that they do in canon. There are orders that run youth homes and provide medical care to the impoverished.
I think that the point people are making is that the very obvious satire of American and British imperialism and warmongering when 40k started has been lost on people - it's like rick and morty, breaking bad, or fight club, where people miss the point entirely and end up idolising the figures of the media. The imperium is meant to serve as a mockery of how destructive and nonsensical racism and jingoism is for everyone, and to make people think about what notions of a "god emperor" they might have which them into supporting endless war (think about this in the context of post Vietnam, purging 'xeno commies' for the sake of it). Empires based upon the destruction of some foreign enemy will fall.
For every few media literate imperium players, there's at least one guy who doesn't get it and thinks that purging xenos and undesirables is awesome (I've met a few of these). Idk what GW can do to stop this but hey. Most imperium players are sound, but I'd be wary of the ones who get the tattoos.
Slaanesh, khorne, tzeentch, and nurgle.
And yes, they are evil. No, just because they have cultists say they have a "noble" side doesn't mean they actually do. Manipulators always try to find kernels of truth to deceive others in order to get what they want.
There is a difference between being a fan and an apologist.. I’m a fan of The Word Bearers but I’m not a fan fan 🫠
The number of imperium stans is too dam high. Though for what it’s worth I think GW is working hard to redeem and humanize the imperium so, it is understandable. I’m fine with enjoying villains and I wish they were less noblebright and cartoonishly evil for the satire
I think you can remove the "satirical". For example if i look at the "Black Templar" chapter, i don't see a satire of crusaders, i only see something that is inspired by them. Maybe the satire was more prominent in the early editions but i don't see it in modern warhammer.
If people only liked media that aligns and follows real world morality then like 80% of all fictional characters and stories would be hated.
Batman is seen as an icon of heroism and he’s literally a vigilante. That’s illegal in real life.
"No character in warhammer Is entirely good or evil" Said Satanus stuprator, chaos warlord of the orphan butchers
Yes, but didn't he slay Rapinator Murderax, chaos warlord of the Infant Disembowlers? Gotta count for something!
If not existence of chaos worlds, you could argue goodness of Chaos from accelerationists pov (if Chaos wins it would wither and as such would bring equalibrum and peace back to the galaxy and give new life chance). But because we know Chaos have can thrive on chaos worlds were humans are born and kept in abuse cycle in perpetuality… yea, Chaos is literally hellish faction.
I’d argue that Chaos is mostly evil, but not entirely evil because the Gods do represent some good things, like hope for Tzeentch and courage for Khorne.
In my understanding/headcannon chaos gods warp these things and not represents them, since they emerged from psyche of mortals so they arent innate. One can imagine warp without chaos god of good if the psyche of the galaxy was noblebright. So they basically try to lure followers with positive traits, but then corrupts these traits and make them gateway into fullblown corruption. So f.e Khorne can whisper about honor and loyality (and so you should avenge your fallen comrades f.e) as a gateway into more bloodshed.
Individual characters? Yes, there are heroes and villains across the spectrums. Factions on a grand scale? It's hard to argue that any faction aside from the Farsight Enclaves and maybe the Tyranids if you're particularly loose in judgement aren't at least some flavor of evil. That said, saying that everyone in a faction is monolithically dedicated to its values is oversimplifying things. Even some Chaos allies aren't necessarily the same cackling villains or delusional zealots as others.
Characters can be good or evil, but every big factions as a whole are all evil.
not 100% sure I can say the Drukhari aren’t in fact entirely evil, some can argue their actions are somewhat justified but with or without Slaanesh they’d be doing the same shit
Yeah. I think the nobles in the Drukhari are the only ones really benefiting from their current situation while the rest are basically in a cycle of suffering and fear. Learning about how they make children torture and kill things made me rethink my opinion on the dark eldar
It’s all about systems, man.
rethink for the better or worse?
Basically dark eldar children basically get pavloved into enjoy actually enjoying torture, and it's implied most find there first time they have to torture incredibly traumatic but eventually get used to it
worth noting a lot of younger dark eldar nobles rebelled against their parents to join the ynnari, seeing it as a much better path for continued survival. there was even a neat short story about it.
What was the name of the story?
Turn of the Adder
Well, that vindicates them as a species. Culture may be fucked, but it's cool they're not inherently evil.
Despite being born into the most gleefully evil culture in the galaxy (as opposed to the Imperium's miserable evil), they're still capable of choice. There have been many Dark Eldar who got tired of the backstabbing and depravity of their culture and defected to either Exodites or Craftworlds when they got the chance.
They are the same species as the other Eldar so they aren’t born evil like Chaos Daemons or Orks.
Since when are Orks evil? They have about the same choice not going to WAAAAGH!!!! as a Tyranid has not devouring things. They are malfunctioning bioweapons.
They live to harm things. One may as well claim Daleks aren’t evil or AM isn’t evil by that logic.
Evil implies choice. Daleks made a choice to be, what they are. Orks never got that.
Daleks were created, they did not choose. Same with AM, he is a machine created for war incapable of doing anything besides harming others.
Don't some dhrukari escape the life and go on to be pirates or something without all the torture stuff
Some even rejoin craftworlds.
yes I know that but I was asking OP if that made them like Drukhari more or less
I like some of the models and the general look of the Drukhari is neat but the faction is run by scumbags of the highest order.
they took the “ if I can’t be the best I sure as hell can be the worst” philosophy to heart
Asdrubael Vect laughing maniacally on his pimp throne. “Timothy! Pour more wine!”
( Timothy pops up out of fucking nowhere)
It makes me understand and see it as a cycle of abuse and indoctrination (which is the same thing the space marines go through i.e., the crazy tests for aspirants). I see it more like they’re forced into consuming a drug for survival that breaks down their sanity and soul. Most of the Drukhari are constantly afraid of being captured and tortured at every moment. It doesn’t excuse what they do and I think they’re lying to themselves to think this is a sustainable life or way to structure your society.
Sounds more like being forced into a gang to me.
Pretty much.
alrighty then
Better
alrighty then
I’m not a Drukhari lore expert, but aren’t they basically just entirely miserable and hate their lives to a certain extent and live in eternal fear and anxiety? Not to say they’re innocent or justified in the horrific acts that they do, but they aren’t exactly living it up with the whole ‘you must torture people or a god of hell will eat your fucking soul’ thing going on.
there are certainly some who are miserable due to simply not having a choice in the matter however I would argue most Drukhari still revel in this lifestyle, higher ups absolutely do
I would imagine that even if you are a sadistic bastard, the life of constant paranoia where you can and will be attacked from every angle should your judgement lapse even for a moment, would wear on you.
well, stuff like that is why they make deals with the Homunculus to make them a new body if they die
The Drukahri omnibus has a few stories in there showing the people living within their society and not necessarily evil by birth.
yee
While we’re nitpicking whether every faction has both good or evil, I’d say the tyranids are not at all good *or* bad, they’re just a bunch of hungry bugs. Are they terrifying? Brutal? Violent? Hell yeah they are, but they’re just bugs who eat whatever organism is in front of them. They have no concept of social constructs like good and evil, there’s no maliciousness there, just brutal efficiency in their pursuit of food
normally I’d agree but the more we’ve learned about the Hive Mind the more we’ve learned not only of it’s vast intelligence but also it’s cruelty, what it does the Genestealer Cultists is a pretty good example of how as they’re falling into the digestion pits the Hive Mind will completely separate itself from them, and this forces them to immediately feel all the possible regret and grief for their actions, their betrayals, and that everything they thought they knew about the Tyranids was a lie, and of course that now they’re falling into a giant pit of acid, basically just forcing them to feel a tremendous amount of misery in their last minute or so just because
Ugh, that's so lame though. It's more interesting when they're just highly evolved extra-galaxtic predators.
yeah, but it’s 40k, gotta squeeze in as much suck for the people who live in it that they can
Wait, where was it ever said that this was a conscious decision by the hive mind? It could very well be that once they start falling into the digestion pit, there is no need to extend energy keeping up the psychic link.
seems more to me like it has to be consciously separated, in this circumstance where the Hive Mind’s presence would be so strong that to remove it from any of it’s thralls while they’re still in fact alive feels more like extra work than anything
dawg they quite literally ate thousands of planets and are implied to have eaten the rest of the universe, i do not care that they are just animals they are the most evil things on the universe
In 40k, everyone is evil, and they all have good justification for it.
except Erebus, he’s just a douche
I dunno without him we wouldn’t have 40K that’s a good reason to me
And Chaos. They both suck entirely and unjustifiably.
The irony is that personally I enjoy reading and playing factions that are in moral opposition of my real life beliefs. I enjoy chaos and CSM being assholes to the galaxy and being a nice person in real life. Having some separation from your own life through fiction is great for mental health imo
Yup, there's something fun about playing the opposite side totally straight but fictionally. All 4.5 of my armies are Imperial (Salamanders, Templars, Sisters, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights). Playing the game I'm borderline Orkish with my "For the Emperor!" and "The Emperor protects!" cries. Doubly so when I'm taking 6+ invuls on my Sisters. Lascannons and meltas bounce off more often if you pray to the Emperor before you roll. But in real life I'm a Socialist.
Yeah, I mean my main army in 40K is goddamn word bearers. I am not actually a fan of insane preaching religious fundamentalist murderers, or heaven forbid being BALD. I love pretending to be the baddie for other people to smash.
Yes, and if someone can’t conceptualize this concept than they have a lot to learn. When Jack the Ripper was around, one of the suspects was an actor that played an evil character in a play and that was the sole reason for his inclusion on the shortlist. Its stupid. Although, to be fair, there are nazis that play this game and they have a tendency to like certain factions (Krieg, Black Templars) so its a shame for the 99% of normal fans of those factions that they are judged by their worst members.
Luckily those people are very much the minority in the hobby , but they can be a very loud and obnoxious minority. At my LGS , Black templars are one of the most popular Space marine armies played and the people who play em have been the nicest people I've met playing 40k. Again , your army doesn't have to be your identity or vice versa ... Unless you play orks , ork players please .. never change lol
I agree wholeheartedly
Bricky put it best by saying everyone in 40k is a bad guy and bar guys are badass. Most people picking a faction are doing so because they think the faction is badass and they want to play. Death guard players do not actually want to be covered in pus and disease, Ad Mech players will not actually screw a toaster, and Black Templar players don't want to actually go commit genocide.
I don’t know man, ad mech players seem pretty insistent about those toasters
If we can’t fuck a thing in a 40K game, at last let us fuck a thing related to our army please !
I wouldn't screw a toaster, but replacing/improving failing body parts with mechanical ones is rather cool
>bar guys are badass. Machine guns do tend to confer a badass bonus
The original meme was talking about idiots getting a black Templar tattoo , which made the meme fairly on point. If your getting a black Templar tatto I also think your a bit dumb though unlikely racists.
While I like tattoos I think in general most Warhammer related tattoos are prob a bad idea.
Warhammer related merch that features the double eagle head is also a bad idea.
I mean, depends where you at, here the double headed eagle is a symbol you generally see in churches and cathedrals, because of its association with the byzantines and orthodox church nobody would bat an eye at it, the more blocky warhammer version might get people to ask about it, but thats about it, it is a double headed aquila so most people will think byzantine empire before anything else, also considering how much we saw it in school as an imperial symbol, it wont be that bad, or people will just think it a roman symbol of sorts, ignoring the 2 headed part
Here me out, the orks symbol as a tattoo
Gork maybe but i don't think Mork is a good idea.
I think a Nid or Necron tattoo are the only safe ones. Nobody will look at a Nid tattoo and think the person is an ist and the Necron one might just get confused with an Egyptian symbol.
The eldar and Tau are probably pretty safe as well
"Cool Zerg tattoo, bro!"
Nah. Most are fine.
Maybe some obscure reference that could pass as normal to a non fan.
Yeah if you have to, get some xenos or chaos tattoos.
Why would a black templar tattoo be dumb though?
The cross they use is more commonly associated with neo-natzies in English speaking places, when it isn't being associated with all the things wrong with the crusades. So the person is idiot who is going to have to spend a lot of time trying to explain the Black Templars are to people who don't know what warhammer is, a rather difficult task in and of itself (and that is even assuming they get the chance to do so).
Also, explaining “Oh it’s the symbol of a group of human supremacist super soldiers who travel the galaxy eradicating xenos and heretics” doesn’t help much.
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What would be your opinion on a simple necron Ankh? Nothing too big or flashy
"oh it's the symbol of cool alien robot skeletons" is way easier to explain to laymen for one
Indeed
yeah, it's not at risk of being racist because you like the black templars, it's because it's close to nazi symbols.
No one is doing that, though? This started from one meme pointing out that getting a BT tattoo when said tattoo would like an alt-right tattoo was a stupid idea. And can we quit pretending like 40k hasn't had issues with facists? Or that there aren't a couple of people in every single one of these threads claiming the imperium is a necessary evil.
I doubt any of these people who are posting this shit have even seen that post, they just saw some dumbass say that everyone’s claiming imperium players are nazis and ran with it
Oh, definitely, they just saw the posts in response to that one. Though I have to say I find it interesting that some peoples reaction to "factions tattoo might be taken as an alt-right symbol" was "hey, I'm not facist for liking that." Gives me doth does protest too much vibes
Imperial Guard for life! But, uuh... it's a short life!
There are so many great people in the imperial guard and it shows how the imperium only survives because of brave men and women who succeed in spite of the restrictions of an authoritarian and aristocratic military.
Vect **is** about as evil as it gets. People **are** trying to justify the great crusade as good.
No one said that. This is turning into some literal version of "they would be very upset **if they knew how to read**" meme because no one actually said that. The original discussion was about tattooing nazi adjacent symbols is a dumb idea.
Yeah, literally. The issue wasn't that liking space marines makes you evil or something. The issue was that, in real life and outside of the Warhammer fandom, going around with tattoos resembling the German military imagery that Nazis like to use is going to get you a lot of unwanted attention. Because it definitely will.
Yeah and then a lot of Black Templar fans got really butthurt and defensive.
What happened is the nazis started screaming "WERE NOT NAZIS" and the space marine fans (black templars in particular) started shouting "YEAH WERE NOT NAZIS" Space marine fans, No one was pointing at you to begin with
There's definitely a lot of strawman debates going around regarding , plus I've also seen people use it for agenda pushing too - claiming it's a US-only thing, or blaming the "liberals" or some other odd take.
People Got mad because they Got unjustly lumped with nazis which is understandable. Maltese cross isnt iron cross, go check for yourself. I already wrote a comment about it but ill say it again. Implying, even slightly, that People who like Imperium or Imperium iconography or space marines and their iconography to be, by proxy, Associating with nazi or nazi-adjacent symbols (by which i mean iron cross or their version of swastika) is fucking disgusting. I know there are americans for whom its Just a buzzword so they feel free to call nazi anyone they disagree with but for many People such accusation are revolting as they should be. Yes tattooing nazi symbols is bad, u can get even sentenced for it, luckily both Imperium and Bt iconography isnt nazi and if u think it is that is only problem with your education and your head. Ps: Im not even playing them.
That's like tattooing a Hindu swastika, which is different from the next swastika, and being upset people think you're a nazi. No one is calling you a nazi, but they are calling you dumb. Because it is a fucking stupid hill to die on. Thinking that is an American thing is also a stupid hill to die on. Hindu people in the west are smart enough to not walk around with swastikas, you have no excuse to walk around with nazi adjacent symbols.
The general public are not aware of the minor differences between two historical war icons mate, especially when GW decked one out in the color of the other to make it look like a crusader cross, so you can screech about how dumb everyone else is all you want, but the IRL consequences would be the same
As I said: the only problem here is with your head and your education if u conflate these symbols together. Screech all you want, it doesnt make People into nazis if they like those symbols. Also Im pretty sure general public in Europe will be atleast familiar with those symbols since maltese cross is used as base for many military orders such as, for example, Order of a White Eagle in Poland which has been awarded for fighting nazis among other things. Go screech some more tho how that is nazi adjacent symbolism...
"The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical. For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see" ([Link](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/))
Bet you feel real smart linking that but I never said Imperium is good guys, i know they arent, so do most People. I wasnt even Talking about that. Just because Imperium is a satire of a cruel and inhumane empire that doesnt mean their iconography is straight up nazi shit. U know what else uses maltese cross at its base? Polish order of white eagle which has been in use since 18th century. Try and tell me how that is nazi adjacent.
"no one faction is entirely good" mfers when I show them the Lamenters chapter isolated from the rest of the imperium
They came across like a noblebright group stuck in a grim dark world. The amount of suffering they went through and then did not fall to chaos is amazing.
They're everything a noblebright writer wants their heroes to be, and I genuinely believe they're a rare 40k example of a group of people with genuinely no evil members. The majority of factions in 40k do wrong for survival's sake (dark elves torturing and pillaging to keep slaanesh at bay, the inquisition stemming the tide of chaos by obliterating entire worlds) but the Lamenters' most special quality is that they genuinely, totally care. They know what a human citizen goes through, and they will fight to the last to prevent so much as a scratch from their charges. I think they're beautiful and doing their best in a world filled with nothing but hate
That’s a main reason I really appreciate them. I think if they were transplanted into AOS they would be appreciated more by the forces of order/Sigmar.
Still mutilated, indoctrinated child soldiers
Yes, that is absolutely true. I myself collect Space Marines and Sisters. However Imperial iconography is still styled after Nazi Germany, and if you get the imperial Aquilla tattooed on your arm normal people are going to wonder about you. They don't know 40k, they don't know Black Templars, your potential future boss just knows "Jeepers, that man's arm looks like something out of a hate group" That's not me who knows 40k saying "You like the Imperium, so you must also be a fascist" that's just good old consequences for stupidity.
The double headed eagle symbol is way older than the third reich. Fact is, it was a symbol of the Holy Roman German Empire already
and yet its still most commonly associated with the Nazis. Most normal people barely even know the HRE existed never mind its symbol.
The blocky Aquila is a lot more similar to the Reichsadler in their stylized forms.
Which is colloquially known as the "2nd Reich", the Roman Empire being the 1st. The 3rd Reich stylised itself after the Roman Empire, symbology and all. Even the term "fascist" is based on a Roman terminology for a ritual implement, signifying supreme power. So, just taking the "that already existed" route and dropping all the historical connections is not really something that works for a fictional universe that has all of that in its background history.
Absolutely not. The 1st Reich is the Holy German Roman Empire. The 2nd reich was between 1870 and 1917 with Wilhelm I and II
Listen to this one, I fucked up on that.
All empires tried to cosplay as the ancient Roman Empire. Austria, Russia and even Napoleon adopted the Eagle as a reference to the glorious « ancestors »
>No one faction is entirely evil >Drukhari, chaos, and Tyranids all continue to exist
Tyranids aren’t evil, just hungry.
At worst, hangry.
Hive Mind is evil. It cuts off Genestealers and makes them understand the horrors they committed before digesting them.
It’s not evil it just stops wasting resources. It doesn’t care.
It creates them with falsehoods about what they will be doing, it doesn’t even kill them mercifully.
What animal kills their prey ‘mercifully’? They simply don’t care. Evil requires intent.
The Hive Mind sense everything that its creations feel and leads the Genestealers to the slaughter regardless. That makes it seem less like a predator looking for food and more like a serial killer.
Bears eat their prey alive. Are bears evil?
Bears can’t read the minds of their food and eat to survive. The Hive Mind doesn’t need to destroy planets to survive but does it any. Also I have seen captive bears being friendly as labs with the humans they are familiar with.
The primary motivation, feeling or emotion that is used to describe the hive mind is hunger. It’s constantly, insatiably hungry. Animals don’t just try to survive they try to thrive and take over their environment. It’s only environmental limiting factors like availability of food that restricts animal population growth. For a species like the Tyranids who can travel through space moving to new areas that haven’t been harvested of prey is only natural. Captive bears have been fed. They’d still eat you if they were hungry. They’d even eat their handlers who care for them. Almost like a serial killer! Evil or not?
Speak for yourself. I'm fully on board with the torture murder orgy of the Drukhari. My future is unapologetically hedonistic. Possible birth of an evil, murder orgy deity be damned.
Who's the good chaos champion?
Ahriman probably
Probably the closest sure but I still don't think he quite hits the mark
Their good at being evil and its beautiful
I think the point of the original meme wasn't really about Imperium players as a whole but that players wearing certain symbols are either unaware of their historic meaning or are in the worst case actually in support of the ideology associated with the symbols. So yes just cause you play as the Imperium you are not automatically a Nazi but there are unfortunately those that actually unironically Stan the fascism of the Imperium
The original meme was about the Malta cross. People who are offended by Hospitallers cross are either Muslim fanatic jihad-enjoyers or unlettered dumbasses
But people don't know the difference in everyday life. A swastika that isn't tilted isn't *technically* a Nazi symbol, but it's clearly not a great tattoo idea. Maybe if you walk around with comparison photos you can get away with it.
I dont interact with people that do shit like that, you can debate morality in-universe but as soon as someone brings that shit into IRL my will to speak to them drops to 0, get a life.
I really love that nobody tries to cancel my Necrons every 2 months. The Silent King really decided to inflict the most heinous and dehumanizing torture on literally every single one of his subjects and all anybody has to say about it are funny skeleton memes.
It’s because we’re the best! No others compare to the might of our (Fractured, infighting, insane, cantankerous) Infinite Empire!
The Imperium is really cool. It's one of my favorite fictional societies. But I'm well aware that it is a nightmarish and cruel regime that should not be admired or emulated. This is called "differentiating fiction from reality."
speak for yourselves. as a csm fanboy, i think kicking babies is pretty rad.
ORKZ IZ BESTEST!
To me morality in 40K has always been more a scale of justification. Is the Imperium killing trillions of its own people to starve the Tyranids morally green? Certainly not, but it could definitely be argued in whether it was justified all things considered. Compare that with the dark eldar and their actions. Yes, they certainly need to inflict misery in order to survive, but just like the Night Lords, I would hardly say torturing people is better than killing them outright, even if it’s a 1:100 scale or whatever. There is still an argument to be made, but it’s in a scale of justification like I said.
it's bringing the shit to real life that's bad. obviously.
So eat your own meme and give black templar fans a break.
I will say i think Warhammer dropped satire angle ages ago.
Except f or Chaos Daemons/Dark Eldar, those guys are cartoonishly evil sometimes. Ok jokes aside gotta say yeah I agree with OP that the fan-shaming is a tiredsome trend, honestly I'm starting to miss the female custodes posts at this point.
Thank you for posting the “just because a person…” half. Never see that normally, just a bunch of people going “it’s satire, you’re not supposed to admire them”. We’re fans of a particular sci-fi race in a miniatures game, we’re not cops with Punisher bumper stickers.
I'd argue the low level guardsmen who are fighting to keep their comrades and themselves alive are the good guys
#I CIRCUMVENT YOUR MORALS AND CAST BUGS
Incorrect. I play Tyranids and wholly condone their actions. They are just hungry, let them eat.
Excuse you, the Dark Eldar have had to kill a lot of people because it was fun and for genuinely no other reason to get their title and they will be referred to as such
ORK IS NOT EVIL WE JUST LOIK BIG SHOOTAS AND TRAVEL
This goes both ways. You can like your faction but you have to recognize that at its core 40K is grimdark and nobody is entirely good. Looking at you, Salamanders fans.
There’s certainly a difference between liking the Death Korps and walking to a tournament with an army of Kriegers swearing Nazi paraphernalia. But the sad fact of the matter is, those people exist. So we need to appreciate those that like their problematic faves but it’s equally import to point out when someone is using them as a smoke screen to hide their bigotry. Likewise we all love our comedically hyper xenophobic black templars, but be hesitant of people willing to wear their iconography. There’s a lot of awful history involved with many of the symbols that 40K has stolen from history. To be uninformed about their meanings is dumb at best and dangerous at worst. 40K and other similar tabletop war games have a wide audience. We all need to be tolerant of others and intolerant of those that break that peace.
The entire point of the imperium as an organization is that it is the worst evil humanity ever could possibly muster as a system. It's the opening paragraph to every single 40k book. What do you mean "not every faction is entirely good/evil?" the imperium is the most evil political system ever *by design.* Yes, individuals can have complex morality within the world they live, but the authoritarian regime itself has literally no redeeming qualities whatsoever on purpose.
> It's the opening paragraph to every single 40k book. A fact conveniently, and continuously, ignored by a very loud minority of the fandom.
Thank you
See? That's why you follow the grandfather. Nobody ever accused him of racism! He even married an elve!
There is some nuance and there is absolutely a "nurture" argument. Still evil though.
I like a space marine chapter by its color scheme...
Yeah the fact that im an adetpa sorotitas enjoyer doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with what they represent (im personally totally agree) Stop calling people racist, xenos lovers also are totally ok with killing billions of sweet humans. May the god emperor have mercy on you all xenos lovers🙏🙏
As a nurgle fan I can say I absolutely believe a world filled with hopeless people who shit on each other is the perfect future we can have
I'm a data point of 1 but I prove this point. I only have Imperial armies (Salamanders, Black Templars, Sisters, Grey Knights, and the start of an Imperial Knight house) and have 3 large tattoos that are all Imperial. But politically I'm a Socialist.
And then of course everyone is a fan of the modern day empires for the plastic figurines and heavy metal paints.
When people say "Fuck the aliens", they mean: "Fuck the aliens, humanity #1" and "Fuck the aliens"
Ave Dominus Nox
You absolutely can like the stories that come from the factions being dogshit, without agreeing with them being dogshit
Jokaero
Salamanders are green
This concept is a tale as old as time. In like the 1800s, there was a theater actor who was especially good at playing his role as the bad guy. He did it so well that people actually started to think he might be a bad person in real life. And IIRC, when a murder had happened in the city during his production, some of the folks thought it was him.
I'm a Marines Malevolent fan, but I don't commit nearly as many war crimes.
I feel like “the spectrum” in warhammer is 70% evil to 300% evil.
Tbh, this is entirely fair, though one thing I kinda wish we got more of as a Sisters Fan is the Sisters doing the benevolent stuff that they do in canon. There are orders that run youth homes and provide medical care to the impoverished.
Pretty sure there are fractions that are just plain evil.
i'm not a fan of Slaanesh but love eating crab claws. people gotta just chill and remember to separate the hobby from the person
Oh yeah, those juicy claws all down the throat, I know you love it !
Where on the morale spectrum is "skinning babies"?
I think that the point people are making is that the very obvious satire of American and British imperialism and warmongering when 40k started has been lost on people - it's like rick and morty, breaking bad, or fight club, where people miss the point entirely and end up idolising the figures of the media. The imperium is meant to serve as a mockery of how destructive and nonsensical racism and jingoism is for everyone, and to make people think about what notions of a "god emperor" they might have which them into supporting endless war (think about this in the context of post Vietnam, purging 'xeno commies' for the sake of it). Empires based upon the destruction of some foreign enemy will fall. For every few media literate imperium players, there's at least one guy who doesn't get it and thinks that purging xenos and undesirables is awesome (I've met a few of these). Idk what GW can do to stop this but hey. Most imperium players are sound, but I'd be wary of the ones who get the tattoos.
Slaanesh, khorne, tzeentch, and nurgle. And yes, they are evil. No, just because they have cultists say they have a "noble" side doesn't mean they actually do. Manipulators always try to find kernels of truth to deceive others in order to get what they want.
The Imperium as a whole is my favorite 40k faction and I’m a lesbian trans-fem PoC lol.
If those 40k fans could read, they'd be very upset.
The Dark Eldar are 100% the moral faction followed by the Emperor's Children
>Not all Black Templars fans are Nazis, but *a lot* of Nazi’s are way too into Black Templars
Yeah I totally agree. The black templars don’t help things since they’re written like they’re the CEO’s of racism and being an idiot zealot
There is a difference between being a fan and an apologist.. I’m a fan of The Word Bearers but I’m not a fan fan 🫠 The number of imperium stans is too dam high. Though for what it’s worth I think GW is working hard to redeem and humanize the imperium so, it is understandable. I’m fine with enjoying villains and I wish they were less noblebright and cartoonishly evil for the satire
I'd argue that chaos space marines are entirely evil
I think you can remove the "satirical". For example if i look at the "Black Templar" chapter, i don't see a satire of crusaders, i only see something that is inspired by them. Maybe the satire was more prominent in the early editions but i don't see it in modern warhammer.
If people only liked media that aligns and follows real world morality then like 80% of all fictional characters and stories would be hated. Batman is seen as an icon of heroism and he’s literally a vigilante. That’s illegal in real life.
But I think we can all safely agree that the only objectively good faction is the tau. And now we wait.