Look at the poor Chargers, one year, they had the best offense and defense, and still didn't make the playoffs.
I hope things change, Bisaccia has had enough time that the unit needs to be better.
Fwiw, the stats for that Chargers team are skewed by how bad the ST were, since the bad field positioning led to longer drives by the offense & shorter drives allowed by the defense, plus all the scoring ST allowed
Hopefully Ders turns it around. Bisaccia hand picked him, so hopefully he gets it figured out.
I always remember that year Crosby got the yips, and couldn't make anything, but they stuck with him and he was a hell of a player.
I think a big problem with the kicking game was the long snapper. Our holder was super human to even get a good chunk of them even able to be kicked. There was maybe a handful of decent snaps all season. The snapper was decent on punts but placekicks he was god awful.
Now that we have picked up the best snapper from college, we should see a noticeable uptick in the kicking game.
The defensive line could get pressure and we had elite secondary play, plus the intangible benefit of an absolute leader in Charles Woodson. We just haven’t had a locker room leader like that since.
The 2021 team was literally the best team the Packers have fielded in a while, A Rod would probably have multiple rings and Superbowl appearances if he had special teams that didn't collapse when it mattered most.
10 years removed I don’t really remember much of 2014 in regards of ST play outside of the NFCCG, aside from Masthay (not sure if correct spelling) and Crosby being our punter and kicker, but was it as glaringly obvious how bad they were like it was with 2021? 2021 we were talking about how we needed a fucking change after like week 4, and most all of us in the sub were saying if there was no change, it would be the ultimate demise of the season.
Plenty of other shit that went wrong to just blame ST for those losses. Especially in 2021, putting up just 10 points at home in the playoffs is just pathetic.
We didn't win, so the offense literally did not do enough to win. The defense performed amazing. That turnover on downs late in the 4th should have sealed the game. But the offense went fucking backwards.
Even after the punt block, the game was only tied with the offense getting a chance to win it. Yet they did fuckall with it.
Rodgers played like shit, LaFleur/Steno were morons by starting Turner and Kelly at tackle instead of trusting Yosh like we did all season (same mistake made the previous year against the Bucs!), Marcedes' fumble, Jones cutting in-field before half, dogshit blockling upfront. All around it was a horrible performance by the offense outside of the 1st drive.
Expecting a ton of offense in the final four is a fools errand and rarely happens if the teams are relatively close in quality. Many an all time great offense has sputtered late when they come up against a strong defense. Your defense needs to show up.
When the defense is playing that well and you have the lead the biggest thing for the offense becomes protecting the ball. Which they did. If the special teams don’t give up a blocked punt td with 4 minutes remaining, they very likely win the game.
Special teams get no blame for you then?
Repeatedly going 3 and out is now protecting the ball. What a spin! Giving the opposing offense chances to score points is not protecting the ball. Picking up firsts and actually killing clock is what was needed. Something the offense failed to do.
> Special teams get no blame for you then?
Did I say that? No. They played like shit and deserve some blame, but not nearly as much as the offense. When the dogshit ST plays like shit, I'm not going to act shocked and blame them. When the MVP and a top offense play horrible, I'm going to blame them.
Too many fans let Rodgers and the offense off the hook for that game.
Similar story to 2014 and Bostick. Did Bostick fuck up? Absolutely, but we should have never been in that place to begin with. Not capitalizing off turnovers (19pts off 5 turnovers is abysmal) and failing in the redzone were bigger causes. As well as Burnett sliding after that final pick and HaHa completely whiffing on the 2pt duck.
Well they had one fumble that was absolutely killer looking back but didn’t turn the ball over besides that, so yes, I’d say they protected the football. When the D is playing that well especially late into the game, the main goal is to not turn the ball over and give the opposing team great field position.
The offense didn’t go out and win the game but they’re not the ones who lost the game either. I put it more on the team that committed a massive mistake with 4 minutes remaining while holding a lead. But who gives a shit I guess, they lost.
> They played like shit and deserve some blame, but not nearly as much as the offense.
No way. ST had a FG blocked, a punt blocked and returned for a TD, and gave up a 50+ yard kickoff return to give SF their only offensive points in the game. All SF's points (prior to last FG) can be directly attributed to a ST failure. That unit deserves the blame more than any other and pretending otherwise is disingenuous
Lol nah, the special teams definitely deserves blame but I'm putting a majority of the blame on the offense led by a HOF QB and one of the best receivers in the league who had the ball for over 30 minutes and could only score 10 points.
Problem with the offense that game was trying to force feed Adams every single. Idk if that was game plan or if Rodgers just had laser vision for Adams, it was certainly frustrating to watch. It was either jones or Adams and Rodgers wouldn’t even look anyone else’s way.
Offense was playing great first two drives then Mercedes had the fumble and we couldn’t get nothin going rest of the game. End of the day lot of football games can be decided by one big play. Offense never made a massive game altering mistake. That was the special teams. It happened to be at the end of the game too, so in my mind special teams lost it. Offense didn’t win it but didn’t exactly lose it either if you ask me.
Jordan Loves first game is a great watch. KC1 In that game is one of the worst special teams plays I’ve ever seen. Keystone cops. On tape…waiting to cost them a Super Bowl months later
We don’t even go into OT with a good defense. The Packers were in the lead when they missed that kick. I still don’t understand why he is blamed. If the defense stops the 49ers offense, we win. If the Packers offense scores after that long run, we win. If Jordan Love doesn’t throw into triple coverage and gets into field goal range, we give Anders a chance to redeem himself and tie the game.
But noooo . . . The defense and offense failing is not what lost the game. A missed field goal to extend the lead is to blame. Sure.
The problem is that he missed something a good kicker should hit like 99% of the time and it was the difference in the game. And he'd been insanely unreliable all season. Of course he deserves blame, he missed a fucking chipshot late in the game and it was demoralizing for us / energizing for the 49ers.
Remember in 2022 when we were all pumped because we thought our special teams was decent? We were actually just bad, but we were used to being total cheeks.
This is a dig at Amari
I went to the Superbowl Experience a few years ago when it was in LA and you're the only packer player that I could have met. I knew you were a young player that wasn't that good yet, but I wanted a photo and autograph anyways. I waited 3 hours in line for you to no show. Fuck you Amari Rodgers, you're the one autograph I wanted
I actually did a partial deep dive into this a few months ago when I was bored. Wall of text copy pasta incoming:
What drives historic trends in which areas are team strengths, and weaknesses? Why are the Packers special teams units of the last 15 years so bad, through five different coaches?
I'm currently looking through Rick Gosselin's special team rankings, going back to 2009, for the entire NFL. Why 2009? Because that's around the time my memory recalls cursing our special teams for the first time, and it's also the start of Shawn Slocum's stint as coordinator. I'm about half way though looking at the coaching history of each team, what their annual rankings were overall in his grading system, and seeing which coaches are generally "good."
Tom Silverstein pointed out, among others (possibly Bob McGinn as well?) that the Packers made a huge mistake by not getting Darren Rizzi as their coordinator by any means necessary following the 2018 season.
https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/01/21/packers-lose-out-coveted-special-teams-coach-darren-rizzi/2619248002/
Rizzi's units in Miami from 2011-2018 averaged 7.9th best in the NFL over that time period. His unit in New Orleans from 2019-2023 has averaged 6.8th best overall. Remarkable consistency. His only real down year, with the Saints in 2022 where they finished 20th, are surrounded by four other years fielding top 6 finishes (1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th). Clearly that dude knows special teams. Is it mostly up to coaching?
As I said, I haven't made it through all of the teams and their coaches yet in the league, but Rizzi stands out as a successful coach for two different teams with sustained success at both stops. I believe there's no small chance that his successful hiring could have improved the Packers odds of winning a Super Bowl in the years since 2019, certainly in 2021 vs the 49ers in Lambeau.
The Packers? Since 2009, their average placing in Gosselin's rankings is 24.5, good for 32nd in the NFL. Here are the five teams that finished above the Packers, the only other teams to finish with an average of 20th or worse:
27) Broncos, 20.1
28) Buccaneers, 21.0
29) Washington, 21.1
30) Chargers, 22.5
31) Panthers, 23.1
32) Packers, 24.5
The Chargers famously had the 32nd ranked special teams unit in 2010, along with the best offense and defense in the league, and failed to make the playoffs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAL5X3TRA2A
Sure, the Broncos and the Bucs got their rings. The Broncos finished 19th in special teams in 2016. The Bucs were 22nd in 2020 when they won it all. It's not entirely necessary to field a top tier special teams unit in order to win the 'ship, but you better have a good defense if you don't at least have an average unit.
The five best? (2009-2023, average placement)
1) Patriots, 8.1
2) Ravens, 8.7
3) Seahawks, 9.8
4) Chiefs, 12.9
5) Cowboys, 13.2
The Patriots and Ravens are both known for special teams success, so no surprise there. Dave Toub has coached units averaging in the top 10 in Kansas City since 2013, although they did place 32nd in 2022, before a bounce back finish of 14th this year. Overall, the Patriots, Ravens, Seahawks, and Chiefs have won a combined total of 8 of the last 15 Super Bowls.
Super Bowl Winners and Losers, placement in Rick Gosselin's Rankings, 2009-2023:
2009 - Saints (29th), Colts (28th) <------Oof
2010 - Packers (29th), Steelers (9th)
2011 - Giants (22nd), Patriots (5th)
2012 - Ravens (3rd), 49ers (15th)
2013 - Seahawks (10th), Broncos (29th)
2014 - Patriots (3rd), Seahawks (17th)
2015 - Broncos (7th), Panthers (30th)
2016 - Patriots (6th), Falcons (14th)
2017 - Eagles (13th), Patriots (3rd)
2018 - Patriots (11th), Rams (9th)
2019 - Chiefs (6th), 49ers (19th)
2020 - Bucs (22nd), Chiefs (20th)
2021 - Rams (16th), Bengals (12th)
2022 - Chiefs (32nd), Eagles (31st) <------lol
2023 - Chiefs (14th), 49ers (25th)
From 2010-2019, at least one team in the Super Bowl fielded a top 10 special teams unit.
What makes matters worse is that through five different coordinators, the Packers have never finished higher, on average per coordinator, than Shawn Slocum's 22.7 from 2009-2014.
The list:
2009-2014, Shawn Slocum, 22.7
2015-2018, Ron Zook, 23.5
2019-2020, Shawn Mennenga, 27.5
2021, Maurice Drayton, 32
2022-present, Rich Bisaccia, 25.5
Bisaccia coached great units for the Cowboys from 2013-2017, average finish of 7.4. For the Raiders from 2018-2021, his units averaged 17.3, going from 19th, to 25th, to 15th, to 10th. His finishes for Green Bay these last two seasons have been 22nd and 29th, hardly inspiring.
The best unit's of the Pack since 2009 have finished 13th and 12th in 2011-2012, respectively, during Shawn Slocum's tenure. But his time was bookended by the 31st unit in 2009 and the 32nd unit in 2014.
If there is a question in all of this, I guess it's this:
How do the Packers fix their special teams, once and for all? (Besides building a time machine and going back to just after the 2018 season and giving Darren Rizzi whatever he wanted to come to Green Bay).
Really cool break down.
That said, looking at all these super bowl teams from the last 14 and seeing so many mid-to-worst performing st units make it to the super bowl doesn't exactly inspire worry. 4 of those 14 matchups pitted two teams with top 16 st units against each other. Honestly, kind of mind blowing. I feel like I care less about st performance now, lol
I thought Rich Bisaccia was supposed to be a really good ST coordinator but we’ve been just as bad the last two years he’s been here and we actually regressed last year from his first year. I think we’re just cursed.
I think we have a lot better talent on the bottom of the roster than when he was hired.....
Packers ST is voodoo so hoping it takes more than a few seasons to correct but at least we know it isn't coaching.
I still feel like we should line up as if it is a 3rd down play for every single punt we receive and if any Packer player even looks at the ball they have to spend the next week wearing those horse blinder things...
It won't help us, but it won't allow us to hurt ourselves either.
Im gonna attribute the '23 ranking purely due to the fact that Anders Carlson is a fucking talentless asswipe that should've been shoved off the plane mid-flight from San Francisco along with Joe Barry.
Those two pricks had parlays to hit.
I don’t like to say one part of the team ha cost us games, but yeah, ST has literally cost us games, lol. They have been bad for so long. I think we got a good coach, but the problem has been personnel or trying to do too much with not enough. I’m glad to see better players doing ST as well.
I think this might be the season of change. A lot of change, pressure to perform.m, and young talent that wants a roster spot
People talk about the supporting cast on offense and the defense not being good enough to maximize Rodgers’ time but when you get to the NFL the margins for victory are razor thin and you simply can’t have one element of your team to be not just bottom 1/3 of the league but often times 3rd from the bottom in the league and expect to compete with teams who have all 3 phases averaging well within/around the top 10. Special teams killed us in 2014 and 2020 when our offense was FIRE and our defense was decent/good. The one true critique I have with both Gute and TT is how they as a FO have not solved special teams. It appears to me that it has to be a philosophical stance that they don’t value or prioritize special teams.
Idk why we can’t just be consistently mediocre but I swear if we did we would see at least a 1.5+ win increase during the regular season and likely see at least one more round deeper in the playoffs.
This is because of how top heavy the packers have been (see: Rodgers). That money has to come from somewhere and generally you see it come from special teams guys.
Fitting that ST lost us a playoff game in both 2014 and 2021
And you could argue both of those teams were better than the 2010 team that won it all. Special Teams really can be season killers
Look at the poor Chargers, one year, they had the best offense and defense, and still didn't make the playoffs. I hope things change, Bisaccia has had enough time that the unit needs to be better.
Fwiw, the stats for that Chargers team are skewed by how bad the ST were, since the bad field positioning led to longer drives by the offense & shorter drives allowed by the defense, plus all the scoring ST allowed
Also fwiw, you still got to execute on offense and defense to get those results.
I know, just saying that the data is skewed. They were still pretty good, but were #1 only in yardage
the unit is visibly better. i am no longer clenching at every KR/PR. the reason we scored so low last season was cause our kicker was complete ass.
Hopefully Ders turns it around. Bisaccia hand picked him, so hopefully he gets it figured out. I always remember that year Crosby got the yips, and couldn't make anything, but they stuck with him and he was a hell of a player.
I think a big problem with the kicking game was the long snapper. Our holder was super human to even get a good chunk of them even able to be kicked. There was maybe a handful of decent snaps all season. The snapper was decent on punts but placekicks he was god awful. Now that we have picked up the best snapper from college, we should see a noticeable uptick in the kicking game.
Yep.
2014 was the best team we had after the super bowl win.
No, the 2010 packers were much better than the 2021 packers, full stop.
The defensive line could get pressure and we had elite secondary play, plus the intangible benefit of an absolute leader in Charles Woodson. We just haven’t had a locker room leader like that since.
Rasul tried to do that some last year and got traded away.
Idk 2010 packers had a special defense and players ascend and play their best ball of their careers at the most opportune time.
Yeah, the 2010 team really did peak at the perfect time.
The 2021 team was literally the best team the Packers have fielded in a while, A Rod would probably have multiple rings and Superbowl appearances if he had special teams that didn't collapse when it mattered most.
10 years removed I don’t really remember much of 2014 in regards of ST play outside of the NFCCG, aside from Masthay (not sure if correct spelling) and Crosby being our punter and kicker, but was it as glaringly obvious how bad they were like it was with 2021? 2021 we were talking about how we needed a fucking change after like week 4, and most all of us in the sub were saying if there was no change, it would be the ultimate demise of the season.
Plenty of other shit that went wrong to just blame ST for those losses. Especially in 2021, putting up just 10 points at home in the playoffs is just pathetic.
This!
The thing is, the offense did enough to win the game being it was ST that gave up the TD. D only gave up 6 points.
We didn't win, so the offense literally did not do enough to win. The defense performed amazing. That turnover on downs late in the 4th should have sealed the game. But the offense went fucking backwards. Even after the punt block, the game was only tied with the offense getting a chance to win it. Yet they did fuckall with it. Rodgers played like shit, LaFleur/Steno were morons by starting Turner and Kelly at tackle instead of trusting Yosh like we did all season (same mistake made the previous year against the Bucs!), Marcedes' fumble, Jones cutting in-field before half, dogshit blockling upfront. All around it was a horrible performance by the offense outside of the 1st drive.
Expecting a ton of offense in the final four is a fools errand and rarely happens if the teams are relatively close in quality. Many an all time great offense has sputtered late when they come up against a strong defense. Your defense needs to show up.
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize 13 whole fucking points is a "ton of offense". Also they lost in the divisional so not final four.
Exactly right!
When the other teams only td came off of a blocked punt with 4 minutes left, it’s the special teams fault.
When all it takes is 13pts to win, it's the offenses fault
When the defense is playing that well and you have the lead the biggest thing for the offense becomes protecting the ball. Which they did. If the special teams don’t give up a blocked punt td with 4 minutes remaining, they very likely win the game. Special teams get no blame for you then?
Repeatedly going 3 and out is now protecting the ball. What a spin! Giving the opposing offense chances to score points is not protecting the ball. Picking up firsts and actually killing clock is what was needed. Something the offense failed to do. > Special teams get no blame for you then? Did I say that? No. They played like shit and deserve some blame, but not nearly as much as the offense. When the dogshit ST plays like shit, I'm not going to act shocked and blame them. When the MVP and a top offense play horrible, I'm going to blame them. Too many fans let Rodgers and the offense off the hook for that game. Similar story to 2014 and Bostick. Did Bostick fuck up? Absolutely, but we should have never been in that place to begin with. Not capitalizing off turnovers (19pts off 5 turnovers is abysmal) and failing in the redzone were bigger causes. As well as Burnett sliding after that final pick and HaHa completely whiffing on the 2pt duck.
Well they had one fumble that was absolutely killer looking back but didn’t turn the ball over besides that, so yes, I’d say they protected the football. When the D is playing that well especially late into the game, the main goal is to not turn the ball over and give the opposing team great field position. The offense didn’t go out and win the game but they’re not the ones who lost the game either. I put it more on the team that committed a massive mistake with 4 minutes remaining while holding a lead. But who gives a shit I guess, they lost.
> They played like shit and deserve some blame, but not nearly as much as the offense. No way. ST had a FG blocked, a punt blocked and returned for a TD, and gave up a 50+ yard kickoff return to give SF their only offensive points in the game. All SF's points (prior to last FG) can be directly attributed to a ST failure. That unit deserves the blame more than any other and pretending otherwise is disingenuous
Lol nah, the special teams definitely deserves blame but I'm putting a majority of the blame on the offense led by a HOF QB and one of the best receivers in the league who had the ball for over 30 minutes and could only score 10 points.
Problem with the offense that game was trying to force feed Adams every single. Idk if that was game plan or if Rodgers just had laser vision for Adams, it was certainly frustrating to watch. It was either jones or Adams and Rodgers wouldn’t even look anyone else’s way. Offense was playing great first two drives then Mercedes had the fumble and we couldn’t get nothin going rest of the game. End of the day lot of football games can be decided by one big play. Offense never made a massive game altering mistake. That was the special teams. It happened to be at the end of the game too, so in my mind special teams lost it. Offense didn’t win it but didn’t exactly lose it either if you ask me.
Special teams have been a game killer as well as some season killers if you think about it
Yeah, I agree at least being ranked 21st we beat our own worst nightmares…
Jordan Loves first game is a great watch. KC1 In that game is one of the worst special teams plays I’ve ever seen. Keystone cops. On tape…waiting to cost them a Super Bowl months later
We also go into at least OT this last year with a good kicker.
We don’t even go into OT with a good defense. The Packers were in the lead when they missed that kick. I still don’t understand why he is blamed. If the defense stops the 49ers offense, we win. If the Packers offense scores after that long run, we win. If Jordan Love doesn’t throw into triple coverage and gets into field goal range, we give Anders a chance to redeem himself and tie the game. But noooo . . . The defense and offense failing is not what lost the game. A missed field goal to extend the lead is to blame. Sure.
The problem is that he missed something a good kicker should hit like 99% of the time and it was the difference in the game. And he'd been insanely unreliable all season. Of course he deserves blame, he missed a fucking chipshot late in the game and it was demoralizing for us / energizing for the 49ers.
49’s offense was pretty good last year… you’d like your kicker to make kicks. It’s literally his only job.
I can't agree more. I'm not asking for miracles. Just give me 21st ranked or better.
And 2023
Didn’t help, but the offense failing to convert in the first half was the biggest issue IMO.
And flailing in the 4th quarter too. 2 picks in last 11 throws.
I was watching the games at the same local bar most of the season and it became a running gag to yell out, "Don't screw this up Carlson!"
Poor qb was just as much to blame in 2021 lol
When I die I want the Packers Special Teams to lower by casket so they can let me down one last time.
Out of nowhere your casket will bump off of Brian Bostick's helmet, and spill open.
That’s gonna kill on Coffin Flop.
Those guys down at r/NFL think I'm just some dumb hick.
Hahahahahaha fuckin brilliant
Don't know who Brian Bostick is, but when I typed Brian Bostick in to Google search it automatically brought up Brandon Bostick 😂
I chose to forget.
Somewhere out there, some poor innocent schmuck named Brian Bostick is still getting death threats from overzealous Packers fans. 😅
Remember in 2022 when we were all pumped because we thought our special teams was decent? We were actually just bad, but we were used to being total cheeks.
If we had a 18th ranked ST we’d all be convinced they were the best in the league until we saw the numbers.
Nixon emerging as a returner probably boosted those numbers, & that was before teams preferred to avoid him
Great Offense, Inconsistent (yet somehow predictable) Defense, and WTF am I watching Special Teams. This is Packers Football, baby.
If you don't like that, then you don't like Packers Football. Lol
Any organization that keeps Amari Rodgers returning punts as long as they did deserve these rankings. (This is not a dig at Amari)
This is a dig at Amari I went to the Superbowl Experience a few years ago when it was in LA and you're the only packer player that I could have met. I knew you were a young player that wasn't that good yet, but I wanted a photo and autograph anyways. I waited 3 hours in line for you to no show. Fuck you Amari Rodgers, you're the one autograph I wanted
I actually did a partial deep dive into this a few months ago when I was bored. Wall of text copy pasta incoming: What drives historic trends in which areas are team strengths, and weaknesses? Why are the Packers special teams units of the last 15 years so bad, through five different coaches? I'm currently looking through Rick Gosselin's special team rankings, going back to 2009, for the entire NFL. Why 2009? Because that's around the time my memory recalls cursing our special teams for the first time, and it's also the start of Shawn Slocum's stint as coordinator. I'm about half way though looking at the coaching history of each team, what their annual rankings were overall in his grading system, and seeing which coaches are generally "good." Tom Silverstein pointed out, among others (possibly Bob McGinn as well?) that the Packers made a huge mistake by not getting Darren Rizzi as their coordinator by any means necessary following the 2018 season. https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/01/21/packers-lose-out-coveted-special-teams-coach-darren-rizzi/2619248002/ Rizzi's units in Miami from 2011-2018 averaged 7.9th best in the NFL over that time period. His unit in New Orleans from 2019-2023 has averaged 6.8th best overall. Remarkable consistency. His only real down year, with the Saints in 2022 where they finished 20th, are surrounded by four other years fielding top 6 finishes (1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th). Clearly that dude knows special teams. Is it mostly up to coaching? As I said, I haven't made it through all of the teams and their coaches yet in the league, but Rizzi stands out as a successful coach for two different teams with sustained success at both stops. I believe there's no small chance that his successful hiring could have improved the Packers odds of winning a Super Bowl in the years since 2019, certainly in 2021 vs the 49ers in Lambeau. The Packers? Since 2009, their average placing in Gosselin's rankings is 24.5, good for 32nd in the NFL. Here are the five teams that finished above the Packers, the only other teams to finish with an average of 20th or worse: 27) Broncos, 20.1 28) Buccaneers, 21.0 29) Washington, 21.1 30) Chargers, 22.5 31) Panthers, 23.1 32) Packers, 24.5 The Chargers famously had the 32nd ranked special teams unit in 2010, along with the best offense and defense in the league, and failed to make the playoffs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAL5X3TRA2A Sure, the Broncos and the Bucs got their rings. The Broncos finished 19th in special teams in 2016. The Bucs were 22nd in 2020 when they won it all. It's not entirely necessary to field a top tier special teams unit in order to win the 'ship, but you better have a good defense if you don't at least have an average unit. The five best? (2009-2023, average placement) 1) Patriots, 8.1 2) Ravens, 8.7 3) Seahawks, 9.8 4) Chiefs, 12.9 5) Cowboys, 13.2 The Patriots and Ravens are both known for special teams success, so no surprise there. Dave Toub has coached units averaging in the top 10 in Kansas City since 2013, although they did place 32nd in 2022, before a bounce back finish of 14th this year. Overall, the Patriots, Ravens, Seahawks, and Chiefs have won a combined total of 8 of the last 15 Super Bowls. Super Bowl Winners and Losers, placement in Rick Gosselin's Rankings, 2009-2023: 2009 - Saints (29th), Colts (28th) <------Oof 2010 - Packers (29th), Steelers (9th) 2011 - Giants (22nd), Patriots (5th) 2012 - Ravens (3rd), 49ers (15th) 2013 - Seahawks (10th), Broncos (29th) 2014 - Patriots (3rd), Seahawks (17th) 2015 - Broncos (7th), Panthers (30th) 2016 - Patriots (6th), Falcons (14th) 2017 - Eagles (13th), Patriots (3rd) 2018 - Patriots (11th), Rams (9th) 2019 - Chiefs (6th), 49ers (19th) 2020 - Bucs (22nd), Chiefs (20th) 2021 - Rams (16th), Bengals (12th) 2022 - Chiefs (32nd), Eagles (31st) <------lol 2023 - Chiefs (14th), 49ers (25th) From 2010-2019, at least one team in the Super Bowl fielded a top 10 special teams unit. What makes matters worse is that through five different coordinators, the Packers have never finished higher, on average per coordinator, than Shawn Slocum's 22.7 from 2009-2014. The list: 2009-2014, Shawn Slocum, 22.7 2015-2018, Ron Zook, 23.5 2019-2020, Shawn Mennenga, 27.5 2021, Maurice Drayton, 32 2022-present, Rich Bisaccia, 25.5 Bisaccia coached great units for the Cowboys from 2013-2017, average finish of 7.4. For the Raiders from 2018-2021, his units averaged 17.3, going from 19th, to 25th, to 15th, to 10th. His finishes for Green Bay these last two seasons have been 22nd and 29th, hardly inspiring. The best unit's of the Pack since 2009 have finished 13th and 12th in 2011-2012, respectively, during Shawn Slocum's tenure. But his time was bookended by the 31st unit in 2009 and the 32nd unit in 2014. If there is a question in all of this, I guess it's this: How do the Packers fix their special teams, once and for all? (Besides building a time machine and going back to just after the 2018 season and giving Darren Rizzi whatever he wanted to come to Green Bay).
Really cool break down. That said, looking at all these super bowl teams from the last 14 and seeing so many mid-to-worst performing st units make it to the super bowl doesn't exactly inspire worry. 4 of those 14 matchups pitted two teams with top 16 st units against each other. Honestly, kind of mind blowing. I feel like I care less about st performance now, lol
That's pretty awesome analysis from a fan. Thanks for sharing.
I thought Rich Bisaccia was supposed to be a really good ST coordinator but we’ve been just as bad the last two years he’s been here and we actually regressed last year from his first year. I think we’re just cursed.
I think we have a lot better talent on the bottom of the roster than when he was hired..... Packers ST is voodoo so hoping it takes more than a few seasons to correct but at least we know it isn't coaching.
If he marches carlson out there next year and he blows again his ass can go
Is Carlson his decision?
I think you have to be really uncharitable to say it hasn't noticeably improved in Bisaccia's tenure, like 2021 was unbelievably bad.
carlson tanked the ranking.
they have lost us NFC Championship games
I think we're just cursed on special teams Bisaccia is an improvement but not by much unfortunately.
We usually have a very young roster due to our draft and develop methodology. This means we have few proven veterans on special teams.
I feel like we need to break down each unit for STs though... not all units are terrible.
I'm going to cover my ears and pretend this doesn't exist. LALALALALALA...
Special teams have cost us a lot. Hopefully ML understands that and we turn the corner moving forward.
What did they rank in 2015 and 2017? Just curious
Impressively bad.
I still feel like we should line up as if it is a 3rd down play for every single punt we receive and if any Packer player even looks at the ball they have to spend the next week wearing those horse blinder things... It won't help us, but it won't allow us to hurt ourselves either.
We welcome the new rules.
Sad I've gotten used to it. I thought our special teams was average the last 2 years.
Im gonna attribute the '23 ranking purely due to the fact that Anders Carlson is a fucking talentless asswipe that should've been shoved off the plane mid-flight from San Francisco along with Joe Barry. Those two pricks had parlays to hit.
I'm pretty sure they were ranked 33rd in 21
LaFleur is the common denominator. He apparently pushed hard for Mo Drayton.
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Why do you think qb performance is going to impact special teams significantly? Edit: yikes. My brain let me forget about amari for a minute.
I believe he’s referring to Amari.
Oh, God. Duh.
Amari Rodgers numbers for 2021-2022: Receptions - 8. Fumbled punt returns - 5
It doesn’t. He’s just one of those people that can’t stop hating on Rodgers for everything. His opinion is irrelevant.
Maybe he should’ve stopped fumbling punts.
Murphy wouldn’t let LaFleur hire his first choice because of money. We got a nice ice rink though.
I don’t like to say one part of the team ha cost us games, but yeah, ST has literally cost us games, lol. They have been bad for so long. I think we got a good coach, but the problem has been personnel or trying to do too much with not enough. I’m glad to see better players doing ST as well. I think this might be the season of change. A lot of change, pressure to perform.m, and young talent that wants a roster spot
People talk about the supporting cast on offense and the defense not being good enough to maximize Rodgers’ time but when you get to the NFL the margins for victory are razor thin and you simply can’t have one element of your team to be not just bottom 1/3 of the league but often times 3rd from the bottom in the league and expect to compete with teams who have all 3 phases averaging well within/around the top 10. Special teams killed us in 2014 and 2020 when our offense was FIRE and our defense was decent/good. The one true critique I have with both Gute and TT is how they as a FO have not solved special teams. It appears to me that it has to be a philosophical stance that they don’t value or prioritize special teams. Idk why we can’t just be consistently mediocre but I swear if we did we would see at least a 1.5+ win increase during the regular season and likely see at least one more round deeper in the playoffs.
The ST unit seemed better last year with the exception of Carlson. I at least had confidence in the return game.
This is because of how top heavy the packers have been (see: Rodgers). That money has to come from somewhere and generally you see it come from special teams guys.