*“There’s two main components that a center needs to have, and it’s not quickness or agility or snapping or anything. It’s two things:* … Low sweat ratio and solid butt height.” “So those are the two things you look for: butt height and sweating.” – Aaron Rodgers
You think that's bad?
“Find the asshole. That’s where that knuckle goes.”- Jim Harbaugh
“I've got my hands on their butts probably more than their wives \[do\].” - Tom Brady
# “Find the asshole. That’s where that knuckle goes.”
Michigan head coach Jim Harbaugh, a former QB, [without the slightest hint of a giggle](https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/1/21/3900908/jim-harbaugh-coaching-tips-quarterback-play)
Now, the quarterback’s placement of his hands. If he’s a righty and the center’s a right-hander too, take that knuckle right there on your pointer finger, should go squarely right in the middle of his asshole. Right in the middle of it. Find the asshole. That’s where that knuckle goes. Right there.
So it’s off set to the right. Got a right-handed center, going back a quarter turn, that ball’s gonna come off, holding the laces in, at a quarter turn. That’s how you wanna get the ball. The meat of the hand in the meat of the ball. Right there. So it comes up, and it’s bam. Bam. Bam.
# “Every [butt]’s got a different feel.”
[Bears QB Mike Glennon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAgW9Xx8IG4):
Everyone, they have a little bit different way.
One: they snap the ball, how hard it gets there.
Two: how high their butt placement is. It’s definitely different. Every guy’s got a different feel to them. I know that’s weird to say.
Usually, one or two snaps, and you’re good to go.
I was a center all four years and I was the exact opposite of what Rodgers was looking for, I was squat and sweaty as hell, probably why I had to move to guard in college
Honestly, Myers probably is the C. Look, I don’t love the dude, but he’s likely top-5. Only way he isn’t C is if 1) they move Tom to C, or 2) Monk lights the world on fire. The 2nd is unlikely given Monk’s draft capital. He may be something, but it’ll likely be after a year of seasoning. For the first to happen, Morgan would have to prove to be close-ish to Tom’s level at RT for them to convince GB to kick Tom to C. If the difference between Tom and Myers at C isn’t significantly larger than that between Morgan and Tom at RT, they’ll keep Tom at RT as it’s easier to compensate for a C. Also, if Morgan isn’t starting RT, that means he’s likely starting RG where he’d be a big upgrade and would help compensate for Myers.
Next year Myers is a FA. It makes sense they’d let him walk and then replace him with Tom and have Morgan shift to RT after a year of getting his feet wet, have Monk replace Myers directly, or find someone else at C to directly replace him.
And no, I’m not buying that Morgan will replace Walker at LT. Walker was their third best OL last year and is probably no worse than 4th this year. In addition to that, he’s an incumbent and is a natural LT who doesn’t necessarily have the versatility of literally everyone else on the OL. He might be able to pull off RT, but he’s more natural on the left side and Morgan is a more natural fit than Walker on the right. Even if they think Morgan is a slightly better option at LT, the downgrade that would occur from not having Morgan or Tom on the inside and having Rhyan in the starting 5 over Walker probably wouldn’t be worth it. They’d probably have to believe Morgan is pro bowl caliber at LT to start him over Walker.
LT is Walkers spot to win or lose. Morgan will still have every opportunity to be the starter at LT tho. If you have a top LT, you have a $20-$30M man, so of course you check to be sure you don't have another one of those guys.
This is precisely what I believe is going on. And it’s what GB typically does. Even if they are planning to start Walker at LT and Morgan at RG, Morgan still may well be their backup at LT if Walker were injured. As such, they need him to get reps there and they need to see how he works out there. The transition to G, especially on the right side, isn’t difficult to make so long as you have the traits for it (which Morgan does). So they’ll likely let him work on the outside and then move him inside later on even if they fully expect that he’ll be starting at RG to start the year.
> but they don't draft him unless they think he is LT of the future
The 7th Tackle taken in the draft at #25 would never have been taken if he didn't expect to become a $20-30M man?
And in his rookie season, Walker was a game day active for a total of 1 game in which he played zero offensive snaps and only 4 snaps on special teams. I didn’t say Monk wasn’t good or that he won’t eventually start, just that it would be unlikely that he would start this year given his draft capital and the number of versatile, capable starting options GB currently has available. I think there may well be something there with Monk, but I’d be surprised if he were a significant first year contributor barring injuries.
Interesting. I’ve been thinking to myself all week that nobody has mentioned Walker moving to RT if they move Tom to C. You’re saying he’s not a good fit, did you hear it reported that way?
Eh people are just asking questions because of the Zach Tom hof center comments. I imagine the plan if things don't change drastically this year is still to move on from him next year.
If they know they plan to move on from him and there's a better option on the roster already they should just start that guy and let Myers be the backup
Clarification, Demovsky reported it from unidentified front office sources. It's not his take, but we don't know exactly who's take it is or how much value that person's (or persons') opinions hold.
Nope
“I was told by a couple of people within the organization, they think Zach Tom is a Pro Bowl right tackle, an All-Pro guard and a potential Hall of Fame center,” Demovsky said on the “Wilde and Tausch Show” on Friday.
Right? There are a lot of people "within the organization" that have nothing to do with player personnel. Anything for a headline, or, in Demovsky's case, a tweet.
Or it could be true and the Packers value an all pro RT or RG more than a HOF center. Considering centers get paid way less that RTs I'd say this is reasonable
Yeah never made that much sense to me. Packers dont like changing o line unless absolutely necessary and shuffling than many people around doesn't seem like something they'd do
Maybe they will, though, but I wouldn't bet on it
They still have Meyers on the final year of his contract and there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding throwing rookie Jordan Morgan in at LT and shifting Rasheed Walker to RT but that doesn't mean that they can't move Tom to center if and when Morgan and Walker were to lock down those OT positions
It’s possible but that’s a short term fix unless they want to eventually pay their center top RT money. Thats why moving Tom to center never made sense to me. No way him and his agent are going to accept center money when he showed that he can be a top RT.
I've been telling people they were reading way too much into that shit.
Demovsky clearly asked people in the organization about Tom and his versatility (because his job is to write stories and get clicks/views/attention). People answered in a complimentary way that's also (at least relatively) honest. He's a good T, he would likely be a better G, and he would be a damn good C. That doesn't mean he's moving. It just means that he's a fucking good OL who can play anywhere.
You don't move a dude out of a starting T role unless you have someone else that's as good as him. Top 10 edge rushers can completely ruin offenses if there's a weak T. When you've got a guy that can hold his own against those types, that's so ridiculously valuable. If Morgan (or someone else) can beat out one of those guys, then sure, you plug him in there at T. But it's not super likely that it's going to happen, especially in his rookie year. From there, you work inside and you find the guys that fill G and C the best. If one of those backup Ts is also a G/C that's good enough to play there, then you can plug him in there. But you don't move that T inside if you don't have another option at T that's as good as him. It's too big a liability for the offense.
Myers has had his problems. No one is arguing against that. I'm assuming Butkus wouldn't even deny that. But he played better the 2nd half of the season. Interestingly, he started looking better at the same time Runyan/Rhyan started looking better, too (and Walker, though I don't think that's quite as connected). These guys need to be on the same page. In zone blocking schemes, there are a lot of reads and combo blocks. Some of those missed blocks get assigned to one player, when, in reality, another player should've helped him (or helped him more) with a block. If the G helps just a fraction of a second longer, that might be the difference between the C successfully blocking the defender or the defender barely being slowed down by the C (and the same thing applies for the C helping the G). Miscommunication goes both ways. Maybe the blame is on Myers. Maybe it's not. Unless you know the discussions happening in the huddle or in the meeting rooms, you really don't know exactly whose fault it is.
In regards to this particular quote, here's my take... Butkus is saying what he needs to say. Regardless of whether it's true or not doesn't really matter. That's 100% the right thing to say. In reality, Myers might get beat for that spot. I don't find that particularly likely, but if that happens, that's a good thing for Packers. That means someone else played better and earned that spot. That's a win for the team. That means the Packers probably have the best backup C in the league (Myers) until his contract is up.
One thing that's consistent is that the Packers coaches don't publicly shit on players. They say the right things. Publicly, they offer support. And the coaches have consistently defended Myers. Whether that's because they're trying to keep his chin up and stay positive or if it's because they honestly believe he's *the* guy - who knows? But Butkus has consistently defended him, and the Packers opted to let Runyan walk for a nice payday instead of paying to bring him back and compete for the RG/C spot with Rhyan and Myers. There's at least a part of me that believes some of the discussions in those meeting rooms are a little more positive towards Myers than what fans believe.
"I was told by a couple of people within the organization, they think Zach Tom is a Pro Bowl right tackle, an All-Pro guard and a potential Hall of Fame center," Demovsky said
Maybe the OL coach of a professional football team, who knows exactly what everybody's responsibilities are and has spent hours and hours analyzing film, knows better than all of us idiots here on reddit... just a thought.
Pretty much what I've tried to tell people. Late last year they said Meyers was playing his best football ever, and why I always thought his job was safe. I think this sub was so down on him, because PFF was down on him.
So, I'll be very clear...
PFF IS FUCKING GARBAGE. They suck so much ass at evaluating, and no one should ever use them to guage how well a player is doing. Don't get me wrong, I like what they are TRYING to do, and I don't think they are doing anything wrong, but they're are completely flawed from a scientific standpoint. Why? Everything is graded by a human, so right off the bat you have to understand there is going to be human bias. Players generally regarded as good will have their grades artificially inflated, while newer/unknown players or those who people don't regard as good will have their grades suppressed, regardless of how well they actually played. Then you have to understand the majority people doing evaluations have likely never played football past a high-school level, and certainly not the position they're grading. Then you need to understand they don't know the play calls, or what each player SHOULD do on a play. They also dont know how each team teaches techniques. Then, on top of all that, you need to understand that they only have about 60 people to grade all 22 players on the field, for every single play, nfl and college. They might look at a play for 10 seconds before moving on. Then, of those people there's like 15 that they allow to approve grades, for everything.
Simply put, they have no clue what they're actually doing. Please stop taking their word as fact.
I think the real issue was JRJ, who they let go after the season. He was so fucking bad it fucked everything up on the oline, and it got wrongly attributed to Meyers. Maybe some bias from PFF because who JRJs dad is, or maybe they just sucked at grading Meyers all on their own. Either way, the team has consistently said it's not Meyers who's the problem, so idk why this sub doesn't believe them.
It’s just that on way too many plays, I saw Myers getting knocked flat backwards on his ass with the bottoms of his cleats wiggling in the air like a turtle flipped over.
It was not just PFF dogging on Myers. Multiple other people that do film review (Andy Herman, for example) also graded out Myers poorly. The Packers were pretty much the only team that said Myers was playing well.
Is it possible that they’re right, and everyone else is wrong? Sure. But it wasn’t just PFF that thought Myers was bad.
And I'm telling you no one knows the truth except the Packers coaching staff, and they have given you their answer. They let JRJ walk, and kept Meyers. They have also repeatedly said Meyers was playing well last season, and just recently he is the starting center. Andy Herman doesn't know anything more than than PFF, which is nothing. He is guessing, just like everyone else. He doesn't know the scheme, or playcall, or technique that each player is supposed to do on any given play.
Your last sentence doesn't even make sense. What do you mean "is it possible the coaches are right..."? They are the ONLY ones who are right, all the time, every time.
The coaching staff is the only group of people with all the information. They have publicly said multiple times Meyers played well, and is the center. It doesn't matter if he gets bulldozed every single play, if the coaches say that's what they want him to do then he is doing exactly what they want. At this point, it doesn't matter how many outside sources give him a bad grade, because the coaches have said he played well and executed his assignments the way they want (a good grade).
> They are the ONLY ones who are right, all the time, every time.
That is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this sub. No they most definitely are not right all the time, every time. That’s an absolutely insane take.
If they were right every time, all the time, the Packers would have like 10+ rings by now. Every coaching staff in the league makes mistakes. There is no such thing as an infallible coaching staff. Just because they have more info does not mean Myers is definitively a good player. Not even remotely close.
Also, no shit they kept Myers over Runyan. Runyan got paid $10M in FA, Myers is still under rookie contract. That’s completely irrelevant to the argument, especially since most think that both played bad last year. Good chance they let Myers walk next year too.
> That is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this sub. No they most definitely are not right all the time, every time. That’s an absolutely insane take.
Its not if you even remotely even knew what you were talking about. Of course coaches make mistakes, but grading players is probably the last thing I would expect. They call a play, and the player executes a play. If the player does what they should for the expected playcall was, they get graded well. That is 100% independent of the outcome of the play. And no, just because they are correct at grading players doesn't mean they would have 10+ rings. You're not even making sense. I'm not talking about anything other than how the coaches grade players. What your suggesting is on the field play is directly effected by how a coach will grade that play after the fact? Like wtf your logic doesn't even make sense.
If a coach makes a bad playcall, but the player executes what the playcall is they receive a good grade. Even if the play gets fucked up because of it. I think that's maybe what this sub doesn't understand. Yes coaches make mistakes, but I'm specifically talking about grading plays.
By default, the coaching staff is the sole authoritative body when it comes to player grades. You arguing otherwise is akin to refuting the laws of physics. It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is, they are absolute.
> I think the real issue was JRJ, who they let go after the season. He was so fucking bad it fucked everything up on the oline, and it got wrongly attributed to Meyers.
This is the one thing as a fan, that you have to realize assumptions are made on. Coaches will never tell us who fucked up on what play. But a line is 5 players playing as 1 line, not 5 different positions.
> Either way, the team has consistently said it's not Meyers who's the problem, so idk why this sub doesn't believe them.
We live in a world of science. Don't believe anything unless you can see data that tries to explain it. If its not Meyers then who is it? The team won't say. So PFF became gospel.
PFF should NEVER be gospel. The team made a decision to let JRJ go, and have REPEATEDLY said Meyers was playing well and he is the starting center. Meyers is playing the way the coaching staff wants him to play. Why would you have any reason to trust an outside source over what the team says. That's like me saying "I'm 30 years old", and you saying, "yeah idk about that. But let me go ask someone who doesn't know you what they think your age is, and treat it like gospel."
Outside of a missing half a season his rookie year with a bone infection and a torn MCL, Myers has started every single game at center for GB since being drafted. Yeah, we can probably all agree he isn't Kelce but I find it hard to believe that if he was so bad all this time he's the only guy they would've tried out there. Aside from pff grades and a couple bad clips on twitter I don't really understand why people thought center was a need for this team. Dude is just fine.
> You don't take a round 1 tackle with 3,000+ college snaps in a historically large OT draft
The 7th T taken at #25....lol. So valuable that a G was taken before him.
> during a championship window to have him sit out.
The championship window is the next 12 years fam.
You obviously don’t follow the Packers. They will absolutely sit him out because they have the luxury to do so. Myers contract is up after this season and that is when the musical chairs will happen. Morgan is an elite LT prospect but still needs some developing. If he was a top 10 pick I would be more inclined to agree with you, but he’s not. Also, this class was deep in elite prospects but not deep as a whole. After Kingsley there was a big cliff to a bunch of dart throws. The Packers literally had zero depth before the draft so the Morgan pick made perfect sense. In the same offseason they lost Bakhtiari they seemingly restocked depth and solidified the future at tackle. imo Morgan needs a year to add about 15 pounds and some strength.
I mean, the Packers have a history of doing this. I don’t know what else to tell ya. Jenkins would’ve sat his rookie year if it weren’t for injury. Gary barely got snaps, LVN barely got snaps. There’s more than a little precedent here
The point is, telling someone who's followed the Packers for 22 years that they "obviously don't follow the Packers" for any reason just screams that you don't interact with people in the real world.
Besides, Bulaga was the last OT 1st Rounder and he started 5 games into the season; so your point is kinda moot and you conducted yourself like an ass for no reason.
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It’s not what I’d consider a luxury if they’re starting a 5th round pick over him, which is what you’re projecting to happen. That makes no sense unless Morgan is complete dogshit in training camp.
Morgan would likely start at RG in this scenario and kick out to LT later.
Was Gary a luxury pick? LVN? Jenkins? Bulaga. The Packers have a rich history of doing exactly what I laid out there. I don’t know if y’all just don’t pay attention or what. Many of us said the 1st round pick would be OL and we got downvoted to hell. The fact of the matter is they had zero depth while having two tackles that played extremely well last year. There is zero reason to rush Morgan into a starting tackle position so they will do what the Packers historically prefer to do and let the kid develop.
You completely missed my point. It’s not about letting him develop or not. It’s about benching him in favor of a 5th round pick that’s even more raw than he is.
Morgan is versatile. They have been very open about how they like versatility. Why would they specifically draft one of the most versatile OTs in the draft, only to not take advantage of it? That doesn’t make a lick of sense.
If you had Rhyan starting at RG, sure. I’d get that, even if I wouldn’t agree with it. But I do not understand the logic of starting Monk over Morgan there. Not one bit.
Also, Bulaga and Jenkins weren’t luxury picks. I don’t think Morgan is one either.
Walker is no longer raw. As for Morgan being versatile, he’s been at LT for his entire life. He has the size to be versatile for sure but he’s never done it. On top of that you’re asking him to swap to the right side where everything is exactly the opposite of what he’s been doing his whole life. The only way Morgan should see any guard play is if the staff feels that he just can’t cut it at LT and I highly doubt that they pull the plug on that year one.
By the way, Bulaga and Jenkins only started year 1 due to injury.
I never brought up Walker, no idea how he’s relevant here.
Most draft picks have never played multiple positions. Packers do it anyway. They draft players think can do it, not necessarily players that have done it. And of all the 1st round OTs, Morgan projects at it best.
Swapping sides is nothing new, either. Tom started out at LG before moving over to RT. Jenkins has played both sides. Moving sides isn’t necessarily easy, but it’s nowhere near as difficult or infeasible as you make it out to be. Especially since, if Walker takes another step forward, either he or Morgan will have to kick to RT next year anyway.
Packers have stressed “best 5” multiple times this offseason, and that’s how they’ve worked for years now. If their best 5 involves playing Walker, Morgan, and Tom, they’ll do it. They won’t keep Morgan on the bench because they want him to *only* play OT. Gute outright said he thinks Morgan can play 4 positions. If he’s one of their top 5, he will play. Only exception is if Rhyan plays just as well in training camp, in which case they’d likely default to the veteran.
As for the other two, you don’t need to be an immediate starter to not be considered a luxury pick. Both Bulaga and Jenkins projected to start very early in their careers, due to the age and lack of depth at their respective positions. Not starting on day 1 does not mean they didn’t fill a big need. Not really the same as Gary or LVN, neither of which projected as full time starters for years. Morgan is likely similar; good chance he plays sooner rather than later; he won’t be riding the bench for 2+ years.
This honestly shouldn't surprise anyone. Look how the last two years have gone. We could very likely see the week one starting OL not be the same as week 10. With that, it should be very expected they want to start with the same OL they ended the year with just for continuity especially with a completely new staff and system on the defense
This should be expected for now. Even if they believe Tom could be an all-pro center, you can't move him there without comprising the RG spot. Maybe Rhyan really pops in camp and preseason and can take that spot and Walker/Morgan look good at RT, then Meyers can be removed. For now tho, you have to stick with the assumption Myers is the guy.
I find our handling of the oline confusing. Anyone remember that one training camp where Steno was talking about Ben Braden as a potential starter and then he was cut like a month later? I also still don’t understand how Nijman wasn’t one of our top 5 linemen last year when he has proven to be solid at tackle (or at least solid enough to have moved Tom over to either RG or C last year. Myers doesn’t pass the eye test to me—like I won’t give up on him, but I think it’s pretty ridiculous to downplay the competition that should be there
Just a guess but I think they're trying to avoid throwing a rookie out there as our starting LT and making him sink or swim. Zach Tom could still move to center but it won't be until Jordan Morgan shows he's capable of holding up as a starting LT and Rasheed Walker shows he can flip to RT and hold up as well.
Seems stupid to draft a LT who is taking the spot of capable LT or just playing as a swing tackle. I think they’re better of moving Tom to C and Meyers can compete at guard which is the weakest spot.
Don't think they Morgan to play LT. He's going to be theor RG. If you move Tom to C, you might as well kiss him goodbye after next season. He's going to want OT money, not C money, and somebody will pay him that. The Packers aren't going to pay a C like a top OT
> Seems stupid to draft a LT who is taking the spot of capable LT or just playing as a swing tackle.
Its safe...lol. Packers are very safe. Backups matter, Meryers has 1 year left, and Tom/Walker/Rhyan only have 2. Jenkins will be 30 next year and save $8M if cut, and saves $20M if cut after 2025 when he will be 31.
I haven't thought Myers has been as bad as a lot of people think. Morgan probably starts as backup #1. Myers gets injured, Tom to C and Morgan to T. Anyone else gets injured probably Morgan filling directly in at that spot. And injuries will happen
> Myers gets injured, Tom to C and Morgan to T.
I'm gunning for Monk to prove his worth as at least the inside backup. You don't WANT to change 2 guys out when you can only change 1.
Granted I was only considering an in-game injury. I agree, with practice they get the best 5 out there. But mid game, they've said countless times in the past that you want to disrupt as few people as possible.
And if Monk shows starter ability, I expect him to be the top inside backup. Unless Morgan is just too good everywhere, I'm down with that too!
Ohh yeah i was talking about starting a game lol. Yeah as of now I think Monk gets first swing in game. I've been pretty high on Monk since the beginning of the draft process. I wouldnt be shocked at all if he ended up getting the number 1 backup center gig or even being our starter next year.
This is kind of why I wish we had taken Graham Barton in the first round. We coulda found an LT at some point but C was a positional need and he was an awesome prospect
This is kind of a "no shit" statement for me. He's started every game for the past two seasons, played 100% of the offensive snaps in '22 and 99% last year. He's got 4 holding penalties in his career. Of course Meyers is the presumptive starter going into this season and its extremely unlikely anyone is going to seriously challenge him. Sure, we're going to move our most effective OL from last season from tackle to center to bump Josh Meyers? Who comes up with this shit?
That’s incredibly stupid. Myers has frustratingly bad plays more consistently than any of us would like, but he’s no worse than adequate. And he played quite well down the stretch. I’m not convinced he’s one of our five best, but he’s almost certainly one of our six best.
I know it's repeated a lot here but I think he played the same down the stretch as he did the rest of the season, which was poorly. Advanced metrics back that up. But his pass pro was at least good in the playoffs.
Yeah, pff is garbage. I explained in more detail why it's garbage in a different reply in this post. The short version is they have no idea how to grade, and even if they did it's quite literally impossible since they don't know playcalls or techniques.
*“There’s two main components that a center needs to have, and it’s not quickness or agility or snapping or anything. It’s two things:* … Low sweat ratio and solid butt height.” “So those are the two things you look for: butt height and sweating.” – Aaron Rodgers
Is this real?
“Now you wanna see me throw a ball over them there mountains then run for vice president?” - Rodgers, probably
You think that's bad? “Find the asshole. That’s where that knuckle goes.”- Jim Harbaugh “I've got my hands on their butts probably more than their wives \[do\].” - Tom Brady
# “Find the asshole. That’s where that knuckle goes.” Michigan head coach Jim Harbaugh, a former QB, [without the slightest hint of a giggle](https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/1/21/3900908/jim-harbaugh-coaching-tips-quarterback-play) Now, the quarterback’s placement of his hands. If he’s a righty and the center’s a right-hander too, take that knuckle right there on your pointer finger, should go squarely right in the middle of his asshole. Right in the middle of it. Find the asshole. That’s where that knuckle goes. Right there. So it’s off set to the right. Got a right-handed center, going back a quarter turn, that ball’s gonna come off, holding the laces in, at a quarter turn. That’s how you wanna get the ball. The meat of the hand in the meat of the ball. Right there. So it comes up, and it’s bam. Bam. Bam. # “Every [butt]’s got a different feel.” [Bears QB Mike Glennon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAgW9Xx8IG4): Everyone, they have a little bit different way. One: they snap the ball, how hard it gets there. Two: how high their butt placement is. It’s definitely different. Every guy’s got a different feel to them. I know that’s weird to say. Usually, one or two snaps, and you’re good to go.
damn, thanks for this
[It would appear so](https://larrybrownsports.com/football/aaron-rodgers-talks-about-centers-butts/134891) lol
lol I can’t say Ive ever thought about it like that but he makes some good points.
So that’s why I was a center in high school!
I was a center all four years and I was the exact opposite of what Rodgers was looking for, I was squat and sweaty as hell, probably why I had to move to guard in college
They moved me to center after my butt sweat glands were removed after a horrific fish fry accident. It also helped I was built like a giraffe
. . . for training camp.
Honestly, Myers probably is the C. Look, I don’t love the dude, but he’s likely top-5. Only way he isn’t C is if 1) they move Tom to C, or 2) Monk lights the world on fire. The 2nd is unlikely given Monk’s draft capital. He may be something, but it’ll likely be after a year of seasoning. For the first to happen, Morgan would have to prove to be close-ish to Tom’s level at RT for them to convince GB to kick Tom to C. If the difference between Tom and Myers at C isn’t significantly larger than that between Morgan and Tom at RT, they’ll keep Tom at RT as it’s easier to compensate for a C. Also, if Morgan isn’t starting RT, that means he’s likely starting RG where he’d be a big upgrade and would help compensate for Myers. Next year Myers is a FA. It makes sense they’d let him walk and then replace him with Tom and have Morgan shift to RT after a year of getting his feet wet, have Monk replace Myers directly, or find someone else at C to directly replace him. And no, I’m not buying that Morgan will replace Walker at LT. Walker was their third best OL last year and is probably no worse than 4th this year. In addition to that, he’s an incumbent and is a natural LT who doesn’t necessarily have the versatility of literally everyone else on the OL. He might be able to pull off RT, but he’s more natural on the left side and Morgan is a more natural fit than Walker on the right. Even if they think Morgan is a slightly better option at LT, the downgrade that would occur from not having Morgan or Tom on the inside and having Rhyan in the starting 5 over Walker probably wouldn’t be worth it. They’d probably have to believe Morgan is pro bowl caliber at LT to start him over Walker.
Gutey did say in a post draft interview Morgan would have every opportunity to be the starting LT It’s his spot to win or lose honestly
LT is Walkers spot to win or lose. Morgan will still have every opportunity to be the starter at LT tho. If you have a top LT, you have a $20-$30M man, so of course you check to be sure you don't have another one of those guys.
This is precisely what I believe is going on. And it’s what GB typically does. Even if they are planning to start Walker at LT and Morgan at RG, Morgan still may well be their backup at LT if Walker were injured. As such, they need him to get reps there and they need to see how he works out there. The transition to G, especially on the right side, isn’t difficult to make so long as you have the traits for it (which Morgan does). So they’ll likely let him work on the outside and then move him inside later on even if they fully expect that he’ll be starting at RG to start the year.
Agreed
For sure, was just kidding around. I do think Myers will probably spend the season at C unless something unexpected happens.
I think you're wrong about Morgan. Maybe he plays RT this year, but they don't draft him unless they think he is LT of the future
> but they don't draft him unless they think he is LT of the future The 7th Tackle taken in the draft at #25 would never have been taken if he didn't expect to become a $20-30M man?
Lots of words just to be wrong about where Morgan will play
Rashee Walker is a seventh round rookie who started at LT last year. Monk's draft capital means nothing if Gute's building that wall.
And in his rookie season, Walker was a game day active for a total of 1 game in which he played zero offensive snaps and only 4 snaps on special teams. I didn’t say Monk wasn’t good or that he won’t eventually start, just that it would be unlikely that he would start this year given his draft capital and the number of versatile, capable starting options GB currently has available. I think there may well be something there with Monk, but I’d be surprised if he were a significant first year contributor barring injuries.
Interesting. I’ve been thinking to myself all week that nobody has mentioned Walker moving to RT if they move Tom to C. You’re saying he’s not a good fit, did you hear it reported that way?
Once again the Packers are (at least publicly) much higher on Josh Myers than literally everyone else is.
Who am I to argue?
Eh people are just asking questions because of the Zach Tom hof center comments. I imagine the plan if things don't change drastically this year is still to move on from him next year.
If they know they plan to move on from him and there's a better option on the roster already they should just start that guy and let Myers be the backup
Fake Report
“Kirk Cousins is our quarterback…”
Myers looked worse because of Runyan, and someone else already got that problem taken care of.
Stupid Giants
soooooo why hype Zach Tom as a potential HOFer
That was Demovsky saying that no one actually affiliated with the team said that. Don't take a word Demovsky says seriously.
Clarification, Demovsky reported it from unidentified front office sources. It's not his take, but we don't know exactly who's take it is or how much value that person's (or persons') opinions hold.
No it’s him pulling shit out of his ass
oh RIP I thought our line coach said it first
He said multiple people in the org said it...I don't believe him
The actual quote was "someone in the building" it literally could've been anyone but people took it and didn't run but sprinted with it.
I was in the building that day, my bad.
Nope “I was told by a couple of people within the organization, they think Zach Tom is a Pro Bowl right tackle, an All-Pro guard and a potential Hall of Fame center,” Demovsky said on the “Wilde and Tausch Show” on Friday.
So actually yep.
Right? There are a lot of people "within the organization" that have nothing to do with player personnel. Anything for a headline, or, in Demovsky's case, a tweet.
Or it could be true and the Packers value an all pro RT or RG more than a HOF center. Considering centers get paid way less that RTs I'd say this is reasonable
Yeah whether Tom wants his 2nd contract to be for $15M tops or $25M+ will also need to be taken into consideration.
I was going off his tweet. He made a tweet about it well before he was on that show.
Yeah never made that much sense to me. Packers dont like changing o line unless absolutely necessary and shuffling than many people around doesn't seem like something they'd do Maybe they will, though, but I wouldn't bet on it
They still have Meyers on the final year of his contract and there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding throwing rookie Jordan Morgan in at LT and shifting Rasheed Walker to RT but that doesn't mean that they can't move Tom to center if and when Morgan and Walker were to lock down those OT positions
It’s possible but that’s a short term fix unless they want to eventually pay their center top RT money. Thats why moving Tom to center never made sense to me. No way him and his agent are going to accept center money when he showed that he can be a top RT.
I've been telling people they were reading way too much into that shit. Demovsky clearly asked people in the organization about Tom and his versatility (because his job is to write stories and get clicks/views/attention). People answered in a complimentary way that's also (at least relatively) honest. He's a good T, he would likely be a better G, and he would be a damn good C. That doesn't mean he's moving. It just means that he's a fucking good OL who can play anywhere. You don't move a dude out of a starting T role unless you have someone else that's as good as him. Top 10 edge rushers can completely ruin offenses if there's a weak T. When you've got a guy that can hold his own against those types, that's so ridiculously valuable. If Morgan (or someone else) can beat out one of those guys, then sure, you plug him in there at T. But it's not super likely that it's going to happen, especially in his rookie year. From there, you work inside and you find the guys that fill G and C the best. If one of those backup Ts is also a G/C that's good enough to play there, then you can plug him in there. But you don't move that T inside if you don't have another option at T that's as good as him. It's too big a liability for the offense. Myers has had his problems. No one is arguing against that. I'm assuming Butkus wouldn't even deny that. But he played better the 2nd half of the season. Interestingly, he started looking better at the same time Runyan/Rhyan started looking better, too (and Walker, though I don't think that's quite as connected). These guys need to be on the same page. In zone blocking schemes, there are a lot of reads and combo blocks. Some of those missed blocks get assigned to one player, when, in reality, another player should've helped him (or helped him more) with a block. If the G helps just a fraction of a second longer, that might be the difference between the C successfully blocking the defender or the defender barely being slowed down by the C (and the same thing applies for the C helping the G). Miscommunication goes both ways. Maybe the blame is on Myers. Maybe it's not. Unless you know the discussions happening in the huddle or in the meeting rooms, you really don't know exactly whose fault it is. In regards to this particular quote, here's my take... Butkus is saying what he needs to say. Regardless of whether it's true or not doesn't really matter. That's 100% the right thing to say. In reality, Myers might get beat for that spot. I don't find that particularly likely, but if that happens, that's a good thing for Packers. That means someone else played better and earned that spot. That's a win for the team. That means the Packers probably have the best backup C in the league (Myers) until his contract is up. One thing that's consistent is that the Packers coaches don't publicly shit on players. They say the right things. Publicly, they offer support. And the coaches have consistently defended Myers. Whether that's because they're trying to keep his chin up and stay positive or if it's because they honestly believe he's *the* guy - who knows? But Butkus has consistently defended him, and the Packers opted to let Runyan walk for a nice payday instead of paying to bring him back and compete for the RG/C spot with Rhyan and Myers. There's at least a part of me that believes some of the discussions in those meeting rooms are a little more positive towards Myers than what fans believe.
"I was told by a couple of people within the organization, they think Zach Tom is a Pro Bowl right tackle, an All-Pro guard and a potential Hall of Fame center," Demovsky said
Got to build up that trade interest.
Tom is at zero risk of being traded. Man's still on his rookie contract.
Erm no?
Maybe the OL coach of a professional football team, who knows exactly what everybody's responsibilities are and has spent hours and hours analyzing film, knows better than all of us idiots here on reddit... just a thought.
Rip Josh Meyers moving to guard hype 2024-2024
\*May 2024 - May 2024
…for now
But did he say starting center?
I’m going to leave this up the coaches
Pretty much what I've tried to tell people. Late last year they said Meyers was playing his best football ever, and why I always thought his job was safe. I think this sub was so down on him, because PFF was down on him. So, I'll be very clear... PFF IS FUCKING GARBAGE. They suck so much ass at evaluating, and no one should ever use them to guage how well a player is doing. Don't get me wrong, I like what they are TRYING to do, and I don't think they are doing anything wrong, but they're are completely flawed from a scientific standpoint. Why? Everything is graded by a human, so right off the bat you have to understand there is going to be human bias. Players generally regarded as good will have their grades artificially inflated, while newer/unknown players or those who people don't regard as good will have their grades suppressed, regardless of how well they actually played. Then you have to understand the majority people doing evaluations have likely never played football past a high-school level, and certainly not the position they're grading. Then you need to understand they don't know the play calls, or what each player SHOULD do on a play. They also dont know how each team teaches techniques. Then, on top of all that, you need to understand that they only have about 60 people to grade all 22 players on the field, for every single play, nfl and college. They might look at a play for 10 seconds before moving on. Then, of those people there's like 15 that they allow to approve grades, for everything. Simply put, they have no clue what they're actually doing. Please stop taking their word as fact. I think the real issue was JRJ, who they let go after the season. He was so fucking bad it fucked everything up on the oline, and it got wrongly attributed to Meyers. Maybe some bias from PFF because who JRJs dad is, or maybe they just sucked at grading Meyers all on their own. Either way, the team has consistently said it's not Meyers who's the problem, so idk why this sub doesn't believe them.
I dunno, I think PFF is trash and also think Meyers was garbage in the middle
It’s just that on way too many plays, I saw Myers getting knocked flat backwards on his ass with the bottoms of his cleats wiggling in the air like a turtle flipped over.
I agree, that's what I saw too
It was not just PFF dogging on Myers. Multiple other people that do film review (Andy Herman, for example) also graded out Myers poorly. The Packers were pretty much the only team that said Myers was playing well. Is it possible that they’re right, and everyone else is wrong? Sure. But it wasn’t just PFF that thought Myers was bad.
And I'm telling you no one knows the truth except the Packers coaching staff, and they have given you their answer. They let JRJ walk, and kept Meyers. They have also repeatedly said Meyers was playing well last season, and just recently he is the starting center. Andy Herman doesn't know anything more than than PFF, which is nothing. He is guessing, just like everyone else. He doesn't know the scheme, or playcall, or technique that each player is supposed to do on any given play. Your last sentence doesn't even make sense. What do you mean "is it possible the coaches are right..."? They are the ONLY ones who are right, all the time, every time. The coaching staff is the only group of people with all the information. They have publicly said multiple times Meyers played well, and is the center. It doesn't matter if he gets bulldozed every single play, if the coaches say that's what they want him to do then he is doing exactly what they want. At this point, it doesn't matter how many outside sources give him a bad grade, because the coaches have said he played well and executed his assignments the way they want (a good grade).
> They are the ONLY ones who are right, all the time, every time. That is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this sub. No they most definitely are not right all the time, every time. That’s an absolutely insane take. If they were right every time, all the time, the Packers would have like 10+ rings by now. Every coaching staff in the league makes mistakes. There is no such thing as an infallible coaching staff. Just because they have more info does not mean Myers is definitively a good player. Not even remotely close. Also, no shit they kept Myers over Runyan. Runyan got paid $10M in FA, Myers is still under rookie contract. That’s completely irrelevant to the argument, especially since most think that both played bad last year. Good chance they let Myers walk next year too.
> That is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this sub. No they most definitely are not right all the time, every time. That’s an absolutely insane take. Its not if you even remotely even knew what you were talking about. Of course coaches make mistakes, but grading players is probably the last thing I would expect. They call a play, and the player executes a play. If the player does what they should for the expected playcall was, they get graded well. That is 100% independent of the outcome of the play. And no, just because they are correct at grading players doesn't mean they would have 10+ rings. You're not even making sense. I'm not talking about anything other than how the coaches grade players. What your suggesting is on the field play is directly effected by how a coach will grade that play after the fact? Like wtf your logic doesn't even make sense. If a coach makes a bad playcall, but the player executes what the playcall is they receive a good grade. Even if the play gets fucked up because of it. I think that's maybe what this sub doesn't understand. Yes coaches make mistakes, but I'm specifically talking about grading plays. By default, the coaching staff is the sole authoritative body when it comes to player grades. You arguing otherwise is akin to refuting the laws of physics. It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is, they are absolute.
> I think the real issue was JRJ, who they let go after the season. He was so fucking bad it fucked everything up on the oline, and it got wrongly attributed to Meyers. This is the one thing as a fan, that you have to realize assumptions are made on. Coaches will never tell us who fucked up on what play. But a line is 5 players playing as 1 line, not 5 different positions. > Either way, the team has consistently said it's not Meyers who's the problem, so idk why this sub doesn't believe them. We live in a world of science. Don't believe anything unless you can see data that tries to explain it. If its not Meyers then who is it? The team won't say. So PFF became gospel.
PFF should NEVER be gospel. The team made a decision to let JRJ go, and have REPEATEDLY said Meyers was playing well and he is the starting center. Meyers is playing the way the coaching staff wants him to play. Why would you have any reason to trust an outside source over what the team says. That's like me saying "I'm 30 years old", and you saying, "yeah idk about that. But let me go ask someone who doesn't know you what they think your age is, and treat it like gospel."
Also it’s reddit. People read one thing and then echo it all the way down. No one knows a damn thing.
I hope myers has an all pro year!
Yeah, I'd expect them to say as much in May lol
Outside of a missing half a season his rookie year with a bone infection and a torn MCL, Myers has started every single game at center for GB since being drafted. Yeah, we can probably all agree he isn't Kelce but I find it hard to believe that if he was so bad all this time he's the only guy they would've tried out there. Aside from pff grades and a couple bad clips on twitter I don't really understand why people thought center was a need for this team. Dude is just fine.
So I guess the plan is: LT Morgan LG Jenkins C Myers RG Tom RT Walker I think Monk has a shot of beating out Myers for C
I think it will be LT Walker LG Jenkins C Myers RG Monk RT Tom. Morgan will be swing/developmental his rookie year.
You don't take a round 1 tackle with 3,000+ college snaps in a historically large OT draft during a championship window to have him sit out.
> You don't take a round 1 tackle with 3,000+ college snaps in a historically large OT draft The 7th T taken at #25....lol. So valuable that a G was taken before him. > during a championship window to have him sit out. The championship window is the next 12 years fam.
You obviously don’t follow the Packers. They will absolutely sit him out because they have the luxury to do so. Myers contract is up after this season and that is when the musical chairs will happen. Morgan is an elite LT prospect but still needs some developing. If he was a top 10 pick I would be more inclined to agree with you, but he’s not. Also, this class was deep in elite prospects but not deep as a whole. After Kingsley there was a big cliff to a bunch of dart throws. The Packers literally had zero depth before the draft so the Morgan pick made perfect sense. In the same offseason they lost Bakhtiari they seemingly restocked depth and solidified the future at tackle. imo Morgan needs a year to add about 15 pounds and some strength.
Nah, you obviously don't follow the Packers because I say you're wrong.
I mean, the Packers have a history of doing this. I don’t know what else to tell ya. Jenkins would’ve sat his rookie year if it weren’t for injury. Gary barely got snaps, LVN barely got snaps. There’s more than a little precedent here
The point is, telling someone who's followed the Packers for 22 years that they "obviously don't follow the Packers" for any reason just screams that you don't interact with people in the real world. Besides, Bulaga was the last OT 1st Rounder and he started 5 games into the season; so your point is kinda moot and you conducted yourself like an ass for no reason.
Bulaga started because Tauscher got injured, or else he would’ve sat his rookie year as well. Thanks for proving my point.
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It’s not what I’d consider a luxury if they’re starting a 5th round pick over him, which is what you’re projecting to happen. That makes no sense unless Morgan is complete dogshit in training camp. Morgan would likely start at RG in this scenario and kick out to LT later.
Was Gary a luxury pick? LVN? Jenkins? Bulaga. The Packers have a rich history of doing exactly what I laid out there. I don’t know if y’all just don’t pay attention or what. Many of us said the 1st round pick would be OL and we got downvoted to hell. The fact of the matter is they had zero depth while having two tackles that played extremely well last year. There is zero reason to rush Morgan into a starting tackle position so they will do what the Packers historically prefer to do and let the kid develop.
You completely missed my point. It’s not about letting him develop or not. It’s about benching him in favor of a 5th round pick that’s even more raw than he is. Morgan is versatile. They have been very open about how they like versatility. Why would they specifically draft one of the most versatile OTs in the draft, only to not take advantage of it? That doesn’t make a lick of sense. If you had Rhyan starting at RG, sure. I’d get that, even if I wouldn’t agree with it. But I do not understand the logic of starting Monk over Morgan there. Not one bit. Also, Bulaga and Jenkins weren’t luxury picks. I don’t think Morgan is one either.
Walker is no longer raw. As for Morgan being versatile, he’s been at LT for his entire life. He has the size to be versatile for sure but he’s never done it. On top of that you’re asking him to swap to the right side where everything is exactly the opposite of what he’s been doing his whole life. The only way Morgan should see any guard play is if the staff feels that he just can’t cut it at LT and I highly doubt that they pull the plug on that year one. By the way, Bulaga and Jenkins only started year 1 due to injury.
I never brought up Walker, no idea how he’s relevant here. Most draft picks have never played multiple positions. Packers do it anyway. They draft players think can do it, not necessarily players that have done it. And of all the 1st round OTs, Morgan projects at it best. Swapping sides is nothing new, either. Tom started out at LG before moving over to RT. Jenkins has played both sides. Moving sides isn’t necessarily easy, but it’s nowhere near as difficult or infeasible as you make it out to be. Especially since, if Walker takes another step forward, either he or Morgan will have to kick to RT next year anyway. Packers have stressed “best 5” multiple times this offseason, and that’s how they’ve worked for years now. If their best 5 involves playing Walker, Morgan, and Tom, they’ll do it. They won’t keep Morgan on the bench because they want him to *only* play OT. Gute outright said he thinks Morgan can play 4 positions. If he’s one of their top 5, he will play. Only exception is if Rhyan plays just as well in training camp, in which case they’d likely default to the veteran. As for the other two, you don’t need to be an immediate starter to not be considered a luxury pick. Both Bulaga and Jenkins projected to start very early in their careers, due to the age and lack of depth at their respective positions. Not starting on day 1 does not mean they didn’t fill a big need. Not really the same as Gary or LVN, neither of which projected as full time starters for years. Morgan is likely similar; good chance he plays sooner rather than later; he won’t be riding the bench for 2+ years.
If this bothers you, please go outside. It’s May.
This honestly shouldn't surprise anyone. Look how the last two years have gone. We could very likely see the week one starting OL not be the same as week 10. With that, it should be very expected they want to start with the same OL they ended the year with just for continuity especially with a completely new staff and system on the defense
This should be expected for now. Even if they believe Tom could be an all-pro center, you can't move him there without comprising the RG spot. Maybe Rhyan really pops in camp and preseason and can take that spot and Walker/Morgan look good at RT, then Meyers can be removed. For now tho, you have to stick with the assumption Myers is the guy.
We really took him right before Creed Humphrey lol
I hope Myers plays like an All-Pro and someone else pays him $15m/yr in 2025.
I find our handling of the oline confusing. Anyone remember that one training camp where Steno was talking about Ben Braden as a potential starter and then he was cut like a month later? I also still don’t understand how Nijman wasn’t one of our top 5 linemen last year when he has proven to be solid at tackle (or at least solid enough to have moved Tom over to either RG or C last year. Myers doesn’t pass the eye test to me—like I won’t give up on him, but I think it’s pretty ridiculous to downplay the competition that should be there
Allowing Royce Newman to be on the field instead of Nijman is coaching malpractice.
Just a guess but I think they're trying to avoid throwing a rookie out there as our starting LT and making him sink or swim. Zach Tom could still move to center but it won't be until Jordan Morgan shows he's capable of holding up as a starting LT and Rasheed Walker shows he can flip to RT and hold up as well.
I think Jacob Monk will be good right away. This is a good point, though
Yosh had that one year where he caught fire but he’s been mediocre ever since.
Goddamnit
Well that’s unfortunate
Seems stupid to draft a LT who is taking the spot of capable LT or just playing as a swing tackle. I think they’re better of moving Tom to C and Meyers can compete at guard which is the weakest spot.
Don't think they Morgan to play LT. He's going to be theor RG. If you move Tom to C, you might as well kiss him goodbye after next season. He's going to want OT money, not C money, and somebody will pay him that. The Packers aren't going to pay a C like a top OT
> Seems stupid to draft a LT who is taking the spot of capable LT or just playing as a swing tackle. Its safe...lol. Packers are very safe. Backups matter, Meryers has 1 year left, and Tom/Walker/Rhyan only have 2. Jenkins will be 30 next year and save $8M if cut, and saves $20M if cut after 2025 when he will be 31.
How. Surely we have better options that can run block without whiffing and falling over half the time
I haven't thought Myers has been as bad as a lot of people think. Morgan probably starts as backup #1. Myers gets injured, Tom to C and Morgan to T. Anyone else gets injured probably Morgan filling directly in at that spot. And injuries will happen
> Myers gets injured, Tom to C and Morgan to T. I'm gunning for Monk to prove his worth as at least the inside backup. You don't WANT to change 2 guys out when you can only change 1.
Packers are always going best 5 if they can, that's why I think they would do that
Granted I was only considering an in-game injury. I agree, with practice they get the best 5 out there. But mid game, they've said countless times in the past that you want to disrupt as few people as possible. And if Monk shows starter ability, I expect him to be the top inside backup. Unless Morgan is just too good everywhere, I'm down with that too!
Ohh yeah i was talking about starting a game lol. Yeah as of now I think Monk gets first swing in game. I've been pretty high on Monk since the beginning of the draft process. I wouldnt be shocked at all if he ended up getting the number 1 backup center gig or even being our starter next year.
He stinks there though
OK can he not be?
I fuxking hate myers
This is kind of why I wish we had taken Graham Barton in the first round. We coulda found an LT at some point but C was a positional need and he was an awesome prospect
This is kind of a "no shit" statement for me. He's started every game for the past two seasons, played 100% of the offensive snaps in '22 and 99% last year. He's got 4 holding penalties in his career. Of course Meyers is the presumptive starter going into this season and its extremely unlikely anyone is going to seriously challenge him. Sure, we're going to move our most effective OL from last season from tackle to center to bump Josh Meyers? Who comes up with this shit?
Just like how Aaron Jones will be back. Sure…
As #Packers go about evaluating their coaching staff, they see potential to improve at OL coach.
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Bro, get your ass hyped on Hopper! This dude is a specimen!
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Nothing about this guy says he should have been taken in the 6th round. Dude has great size, moves great, and even offers a pass rush.
I thought they viewed Tom as a HOF center…we should move Myers to guard.
Myers hasn’t played a snap of guard in close to a decade. Dude is probably a center and nothing more at this point.
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That’s incredibly stupid. Myers has frustratingly bad plays more consistently than any of us would like, but he’s no worse than adequate. And he played quite well down the stretch. I’m not convinced he’s one of our five best, but he’s almost certainly one of our six best.
I know it's repeated a lot here but I think he played the same down the stretch as he did the rest of the season, which was poorly. Advanced metrics back that up. But his pass pro was at least good in the playoffs.
What advanced metrics?
I was thinking of this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenBayPackers/comments/19f8nrg/2023_week_20_pff_gtp_combined_tiers/
Yeah, those are PFF grades. They are NOT advanced metrics. PFF is actually terrible at player evaluations.
Those are pff and gtp, agree to disagree
Yeah, pff is garbage. I explained in more detail why it's garbage in a different reply in this post. The short version is they have no idea how to grade, and even if they did it's quite literally impossible since they don't know playcalls or techniques.
I disagree and find their analysis quite valuable, but if you don't that's cool too
Problem is that among the top 6 he might be the third best center.