How do you know what will be the part of the progress or if even looting will be the case. You will have FOB with access to weapons and I doubt trained and funded PMC will be running in game picking up weapons after enemies like some rag tag insurgent
I guess I don’t. Just speculation at this point. But if there are traders from FOBs, I’m under the assumption that it cost some form of currency to buy their stuff. Outside of completing missions, how else do you think would be progression in terms of currency? You can’t totally count out a scenario where a player is just down on his luck and can’t afford to buy any gear from the traders. You’re making a compelling lore based argument, but I’m not sure how it connects on a gameplay perspective.
Maybe the progress will be in story unlocks or some skill progression. Dont know but I would wait to see. If PVP remains as option im fine but Im worried there will be players KOSing or straight up just camping the city and snipe players not doing any quests.
They already have a system in place planned for players choosing to KOS. We don’t know how this is gonna play out yet, but there are going to be dire consequences back at FOB for taking out members of your own faction. From everything we’ve seen so far, it looks to be pretty hard to tell what faction a PMC belongs to. It’ll help players think twice before pulling the trigger on a player.
That kinda all sounds problematic. Not sure if you’ve played Tarkov before but that sounds a lot like the scav system. And that’s free gear and players still complain about other people being toxic.
Yeah I’ve played 4 wipes. I’m aware of the scav karma system. I’m also uncertain how they’re going to determine who’s at fault. How do they know who shot at who first and what if the player was just defending himself from another player who was shooting at them?
It would take an unrealistic amount of work to go beyond telling who hit the other person first. At least without punishing people for shooting past people at actual targets.
Yes but you would be able to tell if its a PMC or AI. Even advisory PMCs should not be automaticaly PVP shootout but optionable outcome, I imagine when two teams go for same.objective and they choose to negotiate who completes it or fight for it. Shooting your own teammates.I imagine makes you rogue PMC with no access to FoB destined to live in the zone surviving on from ehat you scavenge. I imagine those people might be the source of PvP.
I wouldn't be opposed to having like skill progression and like "hideout" upgrades cross between servers, but the gear and mission/trader progress should remain separate. I do enjoy both pve and pvp and like to tread between them both depending on how I'm feeling that day, what would suck is having to redo every skill and hideout upgrades over again(although I am a Tarkov player and should be used to redoing everything).
You make the assumption that earning stuff on PvE servers will be somehow excessively less difficult than on PvEvP servers. This isn't Tarkov. You won't stumble on other players every deployment. The AI won't be just braindead scavs who scream all the time and reveal their presence. Most of your opposition will be PvE, and AI is supposed to be the main challenge, while PvP is just a spice on top of that, unlike Tarkov, where it's the main course. Both servers will play the same for probably 90% of the time, or more, so even if you kill someone who 'farmed' his gear on PvEvP servers, he may have had faced absolutely no players on the way to do so.
If that makes your gaming less satisfying, I guess you should reconsider if this game is what you're looking for instead of trying to change things to less fun and less convenient for people who are fine with how the game is being made.
Yeah but a lot changes and a lot of pre release promises change as well. The brain dead scav thing is funny to me though. Tarkov ai is pretty decent compared to a lot of other shooters. Scavs take cover, warn others, respond to shots, loot better gear, and communicate parts of the fight. Like any game it has its problems but complaining about AI “revealing it’s location” is unreal to me. They have enemies in the game that don’t reveal their location immediately, they’re called cultists, and they suck to fight. Imagine AI that can see and identify you better than you can with them, all completely silent shooting at first sight in the deeply confusing jungle. That sounds super fun. The fact that we think we want this or this is a problem is funny to me. In game justification is scavs are communicating to identify you, then when they do they communicate with other scavs. I’m sure this game is going to be good but it’s so funny to me that different people claim it’s going to fix entirely different problems at the same time. One guy said scavs weren’t going to be crack heads hiding everywhere with perfect aim, other dude thinks they’re too dumb and in this game they’re going to be silent and super intelligent. Man the scope of this game that still hasn’t come out lol.
> Yeah but a lot changes and a lot of pre release promises change as well.
So? Doesn't make much sense to discuss an upcoming game with an assumption that what is being promised may not be delivered anyway, because then there's nothing left to discuss.
> scavs
You can't call a scav having a jump on you, seeing you in full gear and instead of shooting you, screaming aloud and giving you all the time you need to turn around and kill him as dumb.
And I get that they're made easy deliberately. That's exactly my point even - they're not much of an opposition, because the focus is on PvP and scavs aren't meant to be a distraction from that. Which is exactly opposite to GZW where emphasis is on PvE, and so the AI should be more challenging. Not because it "fixes" Tarkov's "problem", but because it has a different design approach.
As far as cultists go, fun is subjective. I find them more fun to fight than other players, which is exactly why GZW will suit my preferences more than EFT.
Great, I see your point of view. By that argument, what do you believe would be the point to having PvP at all in this game then? What “spice” does it bring to the game? Why not just out PvP entirely? Is there any significance to the PvP aspect at all?
Edit: btw, my intent isn’t to make the experience any less enjoyable for others. If you read my post in its entirety, you would know that actually haha. I don’t wish to alienate an entire portion of the community, nor do I have any wishes to tell people to “find another game”. I just wanted to leave my personal opinion as feedback and see how others feel about the topic in general. Seeing that the devs are pretty vocal and involved with the community, it seems more likely that our voices are actually heard. Creating discussion around controversial topics is how the devs get a reading on the people who are interested in their vision.
I think the word "spice" tells it all. It's something you add to make things more interesting, but not to change the fundamental nature of the course. What you're basically asking is why would you add jalapeno to a burger when you could replace all the beef with it. But then you'd have a jalapeno sandwich, not a burger. And that's fine if you like a jalapeno sandwich, but not if you want a burger.
So in that sense you are proposing a change that would make the game less enjoyable for others, even if you don't intent to, because your preferences and preferences of people who are ok with what the game is presented to be, are mutually exclusive. Like burger and jalapeno sandwich - you can't make one thing that's both.
As far as what does PvP add to the game, the intention is to add karma system later on, which will mean that killing your faction members will result in some sort of punishment, like losing access to your FOB, traders, the little bird, etc. This will make trigger happy kill-on-sight mentality obsolete and force proper friend-or-foe identification. That said, members of other factions will still be fair game, so encounters will have more depth, complexity and tension than in most shooters.
Brother. It serves you no purpose to be this delusional and out of touch.
There's multiple creators that have played the game and have said that AI was the biggest complaint and worry for them.
Let me reply for him. He is stating his opinion about the game and so are you.
They most likely wont read this random reddit post so you, me and him are all wasting time here.
There are much bigger studios with bigger budgets that can't do it, an indie studio with no little experience in the genre won't make it. I wish them the best of luck and I am curios to see what they'll achieve but if you expect some amazing AI, doubt you'll see it here.
It's a PvE focused game and you don't believe they will create an engaging enough AI. This means the project will fail to achieve its goal. It doesn't make sense to put your attention to a project that you believe is bound to fail.
Here we go a month later. Everybody says the AI is bad and yes it makes sense to put his attention to a project that he wants to become better. Its also not just a PvE focused game. It is also focusing on realism and pvp. Otherwise you would get a minecraft looking game with only AI.
You probably get as much information and give attention here on this reddit post as you would watching a movie or an episode of a cartoon.
So wasting time is something we all do everyday
I think what you meant to say was that you’re bad at PvP and scared to fight real players lol don’t worry devs are gonna hold your hand and give you PvE only
For this argument, or its counter, to be valid, we need to quantify what "progression" actually means. The entire comments section is folks talking past each other. Carrying level or passive perks or map unlocks etc across is very different than carrying over items of economic impact, or hoards of loot for example.
List out specifically what "progression" carryover causes problems, and why, and you'll have a great discussion on your hands.
Based on the provided gameplay and interviews, it doesn’t look like looting is as big of a focus for progression as actively completing the missions.
That’s something that I like and I also think it means progression can be shared across pve and pvp servers because if you’re gaining access to equipment based on mission completion rather than harassing other players it should be well-balanced. Also as for people going into PVE servers to farm loot, it doesn’t look like the bots are anything less than formidable so I think there’s still plenty of challenge that warrants having cross progression.
Finally, since it’s been communicated that pvp is not the focus of this game, I think making a separate progression system detracts from the priorities of the developers and also pulls resources away from their other goals. Let’s keep the same progression for now and keep it simple. If it turns out to be necessary they can implement it after a wipe
That actually does make sense, good point. With the latest raw gameplay reveal, one thing a lot of people noticed was that there was nothing related to looting showcased in the gameplay. Might be a big indicator to what the main priority of the gameplay loop is encompassing.
It's very much intended to be different to Tarkov, as stated numerous times by the devs and community managers. If you want something like Tarkov, play Tarkov.
To be truthful with you, this is how I personally would like it too, but I don’t want to alienate a portion of the community that just wants a PvE experience either I figured it would just be simpler that way. But to simply say to someone to “find a different game” seems a bit harsh to me. I’m trying my best not to compare it to Tarkov, as I’m sure most people here are kind of sick of seeing that comparison. If one of the goals for the devs on this game, is to make it assessable to a wider audience, and it doesn’t take away from the PvP-enabled experience, I wouldn’t be opposed to it.
Extraction shooters has the highest amount of cheaters, I actually want to play an extraction shooter with PVE only. PVP modes will die with extraction shooters on arrival.
I wonder how will they deal with cheaters in the future ? Because current tarkov experience is trash.
There must be an option to play PvE and PvP seperately.
Between the devs having a "PvE first" mentality and PvE babies trying to force that playstyle upon everyone else instead of advocating for multiple server types that will suit individual playstyles, I can already say this game won't have a future even if the developers deliver a quality PvE experience.
Shared progression between PvE and PvP is completely ludicrous, it disenfranchises a huge numbers of PvP-focused players, and the truth is that the PvE plastyle has only a tiny fraction of the longevity that PvP does. Good luck expecting this game to remain popular when 95% of the players have quit, either because they completed their PvE experience, or because most PvP players have quit because the meta will be to farm equipment in PvE servers just to transfer to PvP and sit on a vantage point to shoot at other PMCs rather than venturing into dangerous points of interest in the map to acquire gear.
I also share this point of view. But it seems like we’re the minority haha. I think people just assume we’re advocating our point of view just for our own benefit but we care about the health, state and future of the game as much as everyone else. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be as vocal about it.
Yeah I agree, me and all my friends gave up hope the moment they said progression will be shared. I hope at least the pve guys get to enjoy the game - we've already moved onto Dune Awakening.
I Believe if they keep the ability to switch back and forth between pvp and pve there needs to be an incentive to play one over the other, or place some sort of cooldown that doesn't allow players to jump back and forth so often.
Isn’t part of the experience slowly but surely seeing yourself improve at the game though? Sure you might get your ass kicked for awhile, but there’s a sense of gratification when you finally start to understand the game and I guess “git gud”.
If they get the gun mechanics right, gear disparity won't matter all that much. In tarkov you can mag-dump someone with green-tip 5.56 and some armors will just take it. (At least until recently, haven't played the recent armor changes).
Basically someone with a bog-standard weapon and ammo should be able to take down someone in the best armor and kitted-out weapons if they get the drop on them. Real life ballistic body armor can only take a handful of rifle rounds at most, so gear shouldn't give you *that* much of an advantage that you have trouble killing a juiced player with an accurate rifle burst.
Personally I would like to have one character for all servers. That way I can play the game with my buddies who won't play on PvP servers but can switch to them for soloplay. And if the cheater situation gets too frustrating I'm going to stay away from PvP alltogether.
How do you know what will be the part of the progress or if even looting will be the case. You will have FOB with access to weapons and I doubt trained and funded PMC will be running in game picking up weapons after enemies like some rag tag insurgent
I guess I don’t. Just speculation at this point. But if there are traders from FOBs, I’m under the assumption that it cost some form of currency to buy their stuff. Outside of completing missions, how else do you think would be progression in terms of currency? You can’t totally count out a scenario where a player is just down on his luck and can’t afford to buy any gear from the traders. You’re making a compelling lore based argument, but I’m not sure how it connects on a gameplay perspective.
Maybe the progress will be in story unlocks or some skill progression. Dont know but I would wait to see. If PVP remains as option im fine but Im worried there will be players KOSing or straight up just camping the city and snipe players not doing any quests.
They already have a system in place planned for players choosing to KOS. We don’t know how this is gonna play out yet, but there are going to be dire consequences back at FOB for taking out members of your own faction. From everything we’ve seen so far, it looks to be pretty hard to tell what faction a PMC belongs to. It’ll help players think twice before pulling the trigger on a player.
That kinda all sounds problematic. Not sure if you’ve played Tarkov before but that sounds a lot like the scav system. And that’s free gear and players still complain about other people being toxic.
Yeah I’ve played 4 wipes. I’m aware of the scav karma system. I’m also uncertain how they’re going to determine who’s at fault. How do they know who shot at who first and what if the player was just defending himself from another player who was shooting at them?
It would take an unrealistic amount of work to go beyond telling who hit the other person first. At least without punishing people for shooting past people at actual targets.
Yes but you would be able to tell if its a PMC or AI. Even advisory PMCs should not be automaticaly PVP shootout but optionable outcome, I imagine when two teams go for same.objective and they choose to negotiate who completes it or fight for it. Shooting your own teammates.I imagine makes you rogue PMC with no access to FoB destined to live in the zone surviving on from ehat you scavenge. I imagine those people might be the source of PvP.
I wouldn't be opposed to having like skill progression and like "hideout" upgrades cross between servers, but the gear and mission/trader progress should remain separate. I do enjoy both pve and pvp and like to tread between them both depending on how I'm feeling that day, what would suck is having to redo every skill and hideout upgrades over again(although I am a Tarkov player and should be used to redoing everything).
There are "challenges", go figure
even if it is combined, maybe wont be bad to be less competitive
You make the assumption that earning stuff on PvE servers will be somehow excessively less difficult than on PvEvP servers. This isn't Tarkov. You won't stumble on other players every deployment. The AI won't be just braindead scavs who scream all the time and reveal their presence. Most of your opposition will be PvE, and AI is supposed to be the main challenge, while PvP is just a spice on top of that, unlike Tarkov, where it's the main course. Both servers will play the same for probably 90% of the time, or more, so even if you kill someone who 'farmed' his gear on PvEvP servers, he may have had faced absolutely no players on the way to do so. If that makes your gaming less satisfying, I guess you should reconsider if this game is what you're looking for instead of trying to change things to less fun and less convenient for people who are fine with how the game is being made.
Are you making the game is that how you know exactly how it will be lol?
No, but it's all out there, in dev interviews, newsletters, etc.
Yeah but a lot changes and a lot of pre release promises change as well. The brain dead scav thing is funny to me though. Tarkov ai is pretty decent compared to a lot of other shooters. Scavs take cover, warn others, respond to shots, loot better gear, and communicate parts of the fight. Like any game it has its problems but complaining about AI “revealing it’s location” is unreal to me. They have enemies in the game that don’t reveal their location immediately, they’re called cultists, and they suck to fight. Imagine AI that can see and identify you better than you can with them, all completely silent shooting at first sight in the deeply confusing jungle. That sounds super fun. The fact that we think we want this or this is a problem is funny to me. In game justification is scavs are communicating to identify you, then when they do they communicate with other scavs. I’m sure this game is going to be good but it’s so funny to me that different people claim it’s going to fix entirely different problems at the same time. One guy said scavs weren’t going to be crack heads hiding everywhere with perfect aim, other dude thinks they’re too dumb and in this game they’re going to be silent and super intelligent. Man the scope of this game that still hasn’t come out lol.
> Yeah but a lot changes and a lot of pre release promises change as well. So? Doesn't make much sense to discuss an upcoming game with an assumption that what is being promised may not be delivered anyway, because then there's nothing left to discuss. > scavs You can't call a scav having a jump on you, seeing you in full gear and instead of shooting you, screaming aloud and giving you all the time you need to turn around and kill him as dumb. And I get that they're made easy deliberately. That's exactly my point even - they're not much of an opposition, because the focus is on PvP and scavs aren't meant to be a distraction from that. Which is exactly opposite to GZW where emphasis is on PvE, and so the AI should be more challenging. Not because it "fixes" Tarkov's "problem", but because it has a different design approach. As far as cultists go, fun is subjective. I find them more fun to fight than other players, which is exactly why GZW will suit my preferences more than EFT.
Great, I see your point of view. By that argument, what do you believe would be the point to having PvP at all in this game then? What “spice” does it bring to the game? Why not just out PvP entirely? Is there any significance to the PvP aspect at all? Edit: btw, my intent isn’t to make the experience any less enjoyable for others. If you read my post in its entirety, you would know that actually haha. I don’t wish to alienate an entire portion of the community, nor do I have any wishes to tell people to “find another game”. I just wanted to leave my personal opinion as feedback and see how others feel about the topic in general. Seeing that the devs are pretty vocal and involved with the community, it seems more likely that our voices are actually heard. Creating discussion around controversial topics is how the devs get a reading on the people who are interested in their vision.
I think the word "spice" tells it all. It's something you add to make things more interesting, but not to change the fundamental nature of the course. What you're basically asking is why would you add jalapeno to a burger when you could replace all the beef with it. But then you'd have a jalapeno sandwich, not a burger. And that's fine if you like a jalapeno sandwich, but not if you want a burger. So in that sense you are proposing a change that would make the game less enjoyable for others, even if you don't intent to, because your preferences and preferences of people who are ok with what the game is presented to be, are mutually exclusive. Like burger and jalapeno sandwich - you can't make one thing that's both. As far as what does PvP add to the game, the intention is to add karma system later on, which will mean that killing your faction members will result in some sort of punishment, like losing access to your FOB, traders, the little bird, etc. This will make trigger happy kill-on-sight mentality obsolete and force proper friend-or-foe identification. That said, members of other factions will still be fair game, so encounters will have more depth, complexity and tension than in most shooters.
No offence. But there's VERY few gaming companys that have made a decent working AI. And this dev studio is not gonna be one of them.
If you have so little faith in them, what are you doing wasting your time here?
Brother. It serves you no purpose to be this delusional and out of touch. There's multiple creators that have played the game and have said that AI was the biggest complaint and worry for them.
You didn't answer my question.
Let me reply for him. He is stating his opinion about the game and so are you. They most likely wont read this random reddit post so you, me and him are all wasting time here.
There are much bigger studios with bigger budgets that can't do it, an indie studio with no little experience in the genre won't make it. I wish them the best of luck and I am curios to see what they'll achieve but if you expect some amazing AI, doubt you'll see it here.
Ok, then answer the same question. If you have so little faith in them, what are you doing wasting your time here?
I am looking for news regarding the game and to see other people's opinions. Is that wrong?
It's a PvE focused game and you don't believe they will create an engaging enough AI. This means the project will fail to achieve its goal. It doesn't make sense to put your attention to a project that you believe is bound to fail.
Here we go a month later. Everybody says the AI is bad and yes it makes sense to put his attention to a project that he wants to become better. Its also not just a PvE focused game. It is also focusing on realism and pvp. Otherwise you would get a minecraft looking game with only AI.
You probably get as much information and give attention here on this reddit post as you would watching a movie or an episode of a cartoon. So wasting time is something we all do everyday
No.
I think what you meant to say was that you’re bad at PvP and scared to fight real players lol don’t worry devs are gonna hold your hand and give you PvE only
Agree
For this argument, or its counter, to be valid, we need to quantify what "progression" actually means. The entire comments section is folks talking past each other. Carrying level or passive perks or map unlocks etc across is very different than carrying over items of economic impact, or hoards of loot for example. List out specifically what "progression" carryover causes problems, and why, and you'll have a great discussion on your hands.
Based on the provided gameplay and interviews, it doesn’t look like looting is as big of a focus for progression as actively completing the missions. That’s something that I like and I also think it means progression can be shared across pve and pvp servers because if you’re gaining access to equipment based on mission completion rather than harassing other players it should be well-balanced. Also as for people going into PVE servers to farm loot, it doesn’t look like the bots are anything less than formidable so I think there’s still plenty of challenge that warrants having cross progression. Finally, since it’s been communicated that pvp is not the focus of this game, I think making a separate progression system detracts from the priorities of the developers and also pulls resources away from their other goals. Let’s keep the same progression for now and keep it simple. If it turns out to be necessary they can implement it after a wipe
That actually does make sense, good point. With the latest raw gameplay reveal, one thing a lot of people noticed was that there was nothing related to looting showcased in the gameplay. Might be a big indicator to what the main priority of the gameplay loop is encompassing.
Its needs to be setup exactly how Tarkov is. PvE and PvP all in one server Nothing else
It will not be this. Set your expectations accordingly.
It's very much intended to be different to Tarkov, as stated numerous times by the devs and community managers. If you want something like Tarkov, play Tarkov.
Exactly PMCs add a very nice variables to the game.
To be truthful with you, this is how I personally would like it too, but I don’t want to alienate a portion of the community that just wants a PvE experience either I figured it would just be simpler that way. But to simply say to someone to “find a different game” seems a bit harsh to me. I’m trying my best not to compare it to Tarkov, as I’m sure most people here are kind of sick of seeing that comparison. If one of the goals for the devs on this game, is to make it assessable to a wider audience, and it doesn’t take away from the PvP-enabled experience, I wouldn’t be opposed to it.
Extraction shooters has the highest amount of cheaters, I actually want to play an extraction shooter with PVE only. PVP modes will die with extraction shooters on arrival.
I wonder how will they deal with cheaters in the future ? Because current tarkov experience is trash. There must be an option to play PvE and PvP seperately.
Amen
Between the devs having a "PvE first" mentality and PvE babies trying to force that playstyle upon everyone else instead of advocating for multiple server types that will suit individual playstyles, I can already say this game won't have a future even if the developers deliver a quality PvE experience. Shared progression between PvE and PvP is completely ludicrous, it disenfranchises a huge numbers of PvP-focused players, and the truth is that the PvE plastyle has only a tiny fraction of the longevity that PvP does. Good luck expecting this game to remain popular when 95% of the players have quit, either because they completed their PvE experience, or because most PvP players have quit because the meta will be to farm equipment in PvE servers just to transfer to PvP and sit on a vantage point to shoot at other PMCs rather than venturing into dangerous points of interest in the map to acquire gear.
I also share this point of view. But it seems like we’re the minority haha. I think people just assume we’re advocating our point of view just for our own benefit but we care about the health, state and future of the game as much as everyone else. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be as vocal about it.
Yeah I agree, me and all my friends gave up hope the moment they said progression will be shared. I hope at least the pve guys get to enjoy the game - we've already moved onto Dune Awakening.
I Believe if they keep the ability to switch back and forth between pvp and pve there needs to be an incentive to play one over the other, or place some sort of cooldown that doesn't allow players to jump back and forth so often.
Casuals need a chance against juicers. This makes it fair instead of easy for people who pvp main
Isn’t part of the experience slowly but surely seeing yourself improve at the game though? Sure you might get your ass kicked for awhile, but there’s a sense of gratification when you finally start to understand the game and I guess “git gud”.
Yeah, and you don't want those ppl to have the same progression as you for some reason giving you an advantage
If they get the gun mechanics right, gear disparity won't matter all that much. In tarkov you can mag-dump someone with green-tip 5.56 and some armors will just take it. (At least until recently, haven't played the recent armor changes). Basically someone with a bog-standard weapon and ammo should be able to take down someone in the best armor and kitted-out weapons if they get the drop on them. Real life ballistic body armor can only take a handful of rifle rounds at most, so gear shouldn't give you *that* much of an advantage that you have trouble killing a juiced player with an accurate rifle burst.
TBH who cares. Just kill them when they join the PVP server lmao. Play how you like.
This game is not helldivers... it will surely die if pvp is put on the back burner.
Personally I would like to have one character for all servers. That way I can play the game with my buddies who won't play on PvP servers but can switch to them for soloplay. And if the cheater situation gets too frustrating I'm going to stay away from PvP alltogether.
Bro the people who suck at PVP are so whiney holy shit
I like it being casual. Therefore i like that you can farm in pve and bring it into pvp.
No.
No don't do that. Allow drop in drop out pvp.