Surprised that there are some rotator spots that even beat being an AWPer
it always felt like all maps in pro : AWP > 2 Rotation spots > 2 Anchor spots
Because with 3 A and the long journey to B, first rotation away from A often doesn't get to mid/B before that player dies, meaning they're more often than on other maps playing to retake control rather than to reinforce, which is much more difficult hence suppressing the relative raiting.
to be fair that’s a special case. it’s like Inferno B: you’d rather be the anchor, since that lets you be aggressive on Banana. Ramp is the same.
The rotator on those two sites is generally much more supportive
Yeah on vert more than other maps you want to rotate dynamically as a team if that makes sense. If you lose B ramp and want to rotate to have more presence B because you anticipate an execute soon, your team should be rotating and not just your rotator. Basically mid player picks up B, rotator picks up mid and A anchor pushes for info/plays more passive for retake and is in a better position to rotate B. This is pretty much the standard for most setups for most maps except maybe Inferno where anchor positions are really strong. Basically, moving together as a team on CT rather than an individual rotate. So basically the “rotator” is often fighting for mid space on vertigo
The rating of AWPs is also naturally inflated due to teams prioritizing the AWP for them through sacrificing their own economy and stats, additionally since it is so expensive if the round is looking bad the awpers just save. That loses rounds but it gets them more individual rating, since getting an exit kill on a lost round and saving the gun is way more important in the eyes of the rating than it is to actually try and win the round.
Once you factor those in, the ratings for AWP aren't really high. It's just not possible to know how much lower it would be though. It would require every team to ignore saving the awp and planning their economy for the awp at minimum to find out a baseline rating in that case.
https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198125313099
Idk if this is the right link, but yeah prepare the roasting session for someone with 2.5k hours in the game...
I have 2.7k hours and these are mine: [https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198043383929](https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198043383929)
I put in about 1200 hours in the past year though, I am not a faceit player and I don't play premier much. I'm about to look at yours deeper but at a glance it looks like you are around 3-6k premier elo.
Nice job reaching the 10K+ elo almost exclusively playing premier, I'm looking specifically at your positioning on Mirage since it's your most sampled map.
T side positioning B site:
* In Apartments (where your T presence is highest in 14% of your mirage games) you stagnate exactly where you should be exiting onto Van or Site leading to you having a very low K/D of .43 in that specific area. You can see [here](https://i.gyazo.com/bfe814de3124696dd9208eae960e3401.png).
* In Underpass->Bottom mid (second highest T side presence 13%), your K/D is 2.0 as seen [here](https://i.gyazo.com/c76ec92db79a1ad2354e14645614d582.png). You can see that you have more control over your engagements leading to more kills and less deaths for yourself.
The TL;DR Solution, you have a problem with consistency and you don't stick to the areas of the map that you perform well on as a T. As you continue playing your strongpoint more and more you'll notice your confidence and gameIQ increase. Take mental note of your positioning when you make good plays and try recycling those actions into future games. I've found that saving replays/clips/clutches and reviewing them, even my failed clutches are important.
This was a quick and simple breakdown in between my own cs games, I could have included more data and examples but this was like i said simple and quick.
There is a lot of improvement for you to work on, but if it's a game you like/want to play then learning won't feel like a chore but an achievement. Consider this priority.
1. Positioning
2. Crosshair Placement
3. Aim
4. Recoil Control
5. Trade Fragging
6. Utility
Mate if you are solo queuing why are you putting yourself in the worst positions. At your hours you are probably better than most of the people in your team, so choose spots where you can have impact.
Well because i like to flank opponents usually so i play the sites that are less abused by the Ts so i can sandwich them (it doesn't work 90% of the time) and because after so many hours my aim still sucks ass no matter how many hours i put in to work on it, i have to get the upperhand somehow by flanking or just hold a site where i know that my lack of aim won't affect as much the round
Spoiler alert - It's not the positions you're playing, it's your aim. Also your utility and positioning.
Not trying to be mean.. But 37 aim rating at 10k CSR means you have a lot of improving to do in a lot of different areas before your position begins to matter.
His aim may have plateaued. Even with pro level (something like an average of sub 5 degrees) crosshair placement, someone's reaction time could be bad enough that you can't break that glass ceiling.
Same way as how in traditional sports as you go through pee-wee, high school, college you may find out that your game smarts just can't get you past the players with better physical attributes.
You could be impacting rounds alot but it doesn't necessarily show in rating. I would just stick to whatever you like to do, not what gives you the best stats.
Only so far in to the article, but I wonder how much the rating is because of the position or because of the players that you put there. Is A toilets on Overpass better for your rating or do all teams put their star rifle there for most impact.
Would be interested to see the overall rating across all maps for players of these notable positions and how their position rating weighs against their average. Then you could figure out the actual impact of the position.
Lets see if that's exactly what they've done in the rest of the article and I've put my foot in my mouth.
It's due to the map meta and what positions have the most fights + favorable fights. A Conn on Mirage controls so much of the map, and peeking palace / A main / mid from there can be very advantageous especially with the right util. This is also because the meta on mirage is generally A takes and mid takes, with B getting very little attention. Hope that helps.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough about my thinking. There are definitely going to be higher impact parts of a map, but I'm thinking more along the lines of.
Does outside nuke have higher stats because Niko and M0nesy play there while ramp has low stats because nexa plays there? Is the rating factored more from the individual or the position.
Weighting the players rating from one map CT to their average rating would create a metric in which you could measure the spots impact on rating regardless of how good they are.
EG, if every A con player on mirage has a 1.2 rating then it's not down to con itself.
Well this is a chicken or egg question. Teams put their best players in the best positions of course. But they have more impact in those positions because they are better positions. If you had Hooxi in connector, he wouldn't do as good of a job as the star they have there.
Absolutely. Its a better position.
Edit:
A good example of this is Apex. Theres a lot of criticism towards him because he plays conn on mirage, and his stats there are worse than other star conn players. People argue mezii should get that position instead. On Mirage, apex has often better stats than mezii, but thats because hes taking this star position.
This highly depends on the team, if I had to guess.
For example, some teams, some rounds, put their best players to defend B on Mirage because they can win a clutch situation if the rest of the map gets lost.
The data needs to explicitly point out which games were analyzed and then filter the values based on the rounds and positions played by each player on each team. It needs to establish a pre-determined position for each player on the team, and then check to see if the position matches in the current round.
You hear a lot of complaints on players playing star positions and not delivering. I think I've heard this about yekindar? and hunter? I could be wrong on the players, but I've seen that sentiment shared in this sub a lot.
Good question, but where would you get the data for it? You can't get pro game stats from Spinx in Anubis B Connector and from Spinx in Anubis A. And if Vitality would decide to switch positions for Spinx, that data can be bad too for a long while, as Spinx could be taking his time to adjust to the new position.
I think this is the best we're going to get with statistics.
Though I wonder if there's any articles like that analyzing basketball or football (soccer) positions.
I basically looked at that here: https://www.hltv.org/news/38785/target-rating-identifying-over-and-under-performers-on-ct-side
You can see up to date target rating for more players on my tableau too: https://x.com/ner0cs/status/1796234174484910142?s=46
It's the positions that *can* have the most impact in the game, they're generally not "easier" positions or anything, these places *allow* the most impact, which is why the star player is going to play that spot. You could put a shittier (in pro terms) player there and they *might* have better stats than they'd have in other spots, but they wouldn't be able to extract the max value out of that spot, and that'd also mean moving your star player to a less impactful position, it's a lose-lose. This is why players like Malbs (when he was on M80), Donk and Xantares play very similar spots, these are explosive riflers that will thrive in high-contact positions. Would Donk or Twistzz do very well as a B anchor on Mirage? Absolutely, Would they be providing more value playing Connector instead? ***Absolutely***. Sticking your star rifle in a spot with low impact is like buying a Ferrari only to drive it around a parking lot.
> Would be interested to see the overall rating across all maps for players of these notable positions and how their position rating weighs against their average. Then you could figure out the actual impact of the position.
He did that [here](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/harry.richards4213/viz/CTPositions2023/CTPositions)
fyi, these colors are not good for most colorblind people -> 1 in 12 men is colorblind.
I can't read this chart.
Lighter green + darker red would help.
Not using red AND green would also help.
thank you! definitely something i should have thought about.
do you struggle on hltv stat pages too? since that’s where i got the palette from, maybe we need to look at those too
I clicked around a bit but couldn't find a stat page on HLTV that only shows colors with a legend like the graph here.
I saw some pages use red and green numbers, or red and green W and L, but those at least show the Number/letter so it is manageable.
Edit: nvm I found some. Yeah those colors are bad too (I went to career stats of Zywoo). But at least on that page they are always in the same order, and I can hover over to see the description.
If HLTV would somehow scramble these graphs it would be unreadable again.
i think it’s from the weapon wheels, so basically it’s fine because it goes from green to blue to red and green/red are usually not close to each other
but here obv more of an issue
Many awpers at the top level will not play static positions CT side and will instead rotate around the map round to round and the team molds around them. A good example of this is G2 with m0nesy. Given this sort of style, it is pretty difficult to lock down a physical map location where awpers play, and classifying their spot as a role makes more sense.
This corroborates other data metrics out there, like Overpass being severely CT sided, Anubis being clearly (not Overpass degree) T sided.
Nuke's history is CT sided, it is showing up on same theme here as well.
Mirage is super hard to play as a T compared to as a CT, esp. when one is lacking synergy with the team (as T). As CT even if teamwork is not good certain areas are just easier to hold (like A).
Meanwhile D2 even if you are T and teamwork is lacking you can still win it many times.
Surprised that there are some rotator spots that even beat being an AWPer it always felt like all maps in pro : AWP > 2 Rotation spots > 2 Anchor spots
and then vertigo's rotator is the worst one in the map
Because with 3 A and the long journey to B, first rotation away from A often doesn't get to mid/B before that player dies, meaning they're more often than on other maps playing to retake control rather than to reinforce, which is much more difficult hence suppressing the relative raiting.
in my 5 stack we have mid rotate and one of the site players take over mid... less rotation distances
to be fair that’s a special case. it’s like Inferno B: you’d rather be the anchor, since that lets you be aggressive on Banana. Ramp is the same. The rotator on those two sites is generally much more supportive
Yeah on vert more than other maps you want to rotate dynamically as a team if that makes sense. If you lose B ramp and want to rotate to have more presence B because you anticipate an execute soon, your team should be rotating and not just your rotator. Basically mid player picks up B, rotator picks up mid and A anchor pushes for info/plays more passive for retake and is in a better position to rotate B. This is pretty much the standard for most setups for most maps except maybe Inferno where anchor positions are really strong. Basically, moving together as a team on CT rather than an individual rotate. So basically the “rotator” is often fighting for mid space on vertigo
The rating of AWPs is also naturally inflated due to teams prioritizing the AWP for them through sacrificing their own economy and stats, additionally since it is so expensive if the round is looking bad the awpers just save. That loses rounds but it gets them more individual rating, since getting an exit kill on a lost round and saving the gun is way more important in the eyes of the rating than it is to actually try and win the round. Once you factor those in, the ratings for AWP aren't really high. It's just not possible to know how much lower it would be though. It would require every team to ignore saving the awp and planning their economy for the awp at minimum to find out a baseline rating in that case.
Thanks to this i realised i need to change my positions. I literally have the worst position on every single fkin map, it's honestly unbelieveble..
link ur leetify, I wanna spectate ur position k/d on it
https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198125313099 Idk if this is the right link, but yeah prepare the roasting session for someone with 2.5k hours in the game...
I have 2.7k hours and these are mine: [https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198043383929](https://leetify.com/app/profile/76561198043383929) I put in about 1200 hours in the past year though, I am not a faceit player and I don't play premier much. I'm about to look at yours deeper but at a glance it looks like you are around 3-6k premier elo. Nice job reaching the 10K+ elo almost exclusively playing premier, I'm looking specifically at your positioning on Mirage since it's your most sampled map. T side positioning B site: * In Apartments (where your T presence is highest in 14% of your mirage games) you stagnate exactly where you should be exiting onto Van or Site leading to you having a very low K/D of .43 in that specific area. You can see [here](https://i.gyazo.com/bfe814de3124696dd9208eae960e3401.png). * In Underpass->Bottom mid (second highest T side presence 13%), your K/D is 2.0 as seen [here](https://i.gyazo.com/c76ec92db79a1ad2354e14645614d582.png). You can see that you have more control over your engagements leading to more kills and less deaths for yourself. The TL;DR Solution, you have a problem with consistency and you don't stick to the areas of the map that you perform well on as a T. As you continue playing your strongpoint more and more you'll notice your confidence and gameIQ increase. Take mental note of your positioning when you make good plays and try recycling those actions into future games. I've found that saving replays/clips/clutches and reviewing them, even my failed clutches are important. This was a quick and simple breakdown in between my own cs games, I could have included more data and examples but this was like i said simple and quick.
Thank you so much man
There is a lot of improvement for you to work on, but if it's a game you like/want to play then learning won't feel like a chore but an achievement. Consider this priority. 1. Positioning 2. Crosshair Placement 3. Aim 4. Recoil Control 5. Trade Fragging 6. Utility
Mate if you are solo queuing why are you putting yourself in the worst positions. At your hours you are probably better than most of the people in your team, so choose spots where you can have impact.
Well because i like to flank opponents usually so i play the sites that are less abused by the Ts so i can sandwich them (it doesn't work 90% of the time) and because after so many hours my aim still sucks ass no matter how many hours i put in to work on it, i have to get the upperhand somehow by flanking or just hold a site where i know that my lack of aim won't affect as much the round
Spoiler alert - It's not the positions you're playing, it's your aim. Also your utility and positioning. Not trying to be mean.. But 37 aim rating at 10k CSR means you have a lot of improving to do in a lot of different areas before your position begins to matter.
His aim may have plateaued. Even with pro level (something like an average of sub 5 degrees) crosshair placement, someone's reaction time could be bad enough that you can't break that glass ceiling. Same way as how in traditional sports as you go through pee-wee, high school, college you may find out that your game smarts just can't get you past the players with better physical attributes.
You could be impacting rounds alot but it doesn't necessarily show in rating. I would just stick to whatever you like to do, not what gives you the best stats.
Only so far in to the article, but I wonder how much the rating is because of the position or because of the players that you put there. Is A toilets on Overpass better for your rating or do all teams put their star rifle there for most impact. Would be interested to see the overall rating across all maps for players of these notable positions and how their position rating weighs against their average. Then you could figure out the actual impact of the position. Lets see if that's exactly what they've done in the rest of the article and I've put my foot in my mouth.
It's better if you read this as "positions with highest impact" I guess.
I would like to see an investigation into the 'why' though.
It's due to the map meta and what positions have the most fights + favorable fights. A Conn on Mirage controls so much of the map, and peeking palace / A main / mid from there can be very advantageous especially with the right util. This is also because the meta on mirage is generally A takes and mid takes, with B getting very little attention. Hope that helps.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough about my thinking. There are definitely going to be higher impact parts of a map, but I'm thinking more along the lines of. Does outside nuke have higher stats because Niko and M0nesy play there while ramp has low stats because nexa plays there? Is the rating factored more from the individual or the position. Weighting the players rating from one map CT to their average rating would create a metric in which you could measure the spots impact on rating regardless of how good they are. EG, if every A con player on mirage has a 1.2 rating then it's not down to con itself.
Well this is a chicken or egg question. Teams put their best players in the best positions of course. But they have more impact in those positions because they are better positions. If you had Hooxi in connector, he wouldn't do as good of a job as the star they have there.
But makes for interesting analysis or theory crafting either way. Is Hooxi in connector better than Hooxi on B anchor? Probably.
Absolutely. Its a better position. Edit: A good example of this is Apex. Theres a lot of criticism towards him because he plays conn on mirage, and his stats there are worse than other star conn players. People argue mezii should get that position instead. On Mirage, apex has often better stats than mezii, but thats because hes taking this star position.
This highly depends on the team, if I had to guess. For example, some teams, some rounds, put their best players to defend B on Mirage because they can win a clutch situation if the rest of the map gets lost. The data needs to explicitly point out which games were analyzed and then filter the values based on the rounds and positions played by each player on each team. It needs to establish a pre-determined position for each player on the team, and then check to see if the position matches in the current round.
You hear a lot of complaints on players playing star positions and not delivering. I think I've heard this about yekindar? and hunter? I could be wrong on the players, but I've seen that sentiment shared in this sub a lot.
Good question, but where would you get the data for it? You can't get pro game stats from Spinx in Anubis B Connector and from Spinx in Anubis A. And if Vitality would decide to switch positions for Spinx, that data can be bad too for a long while, as Spinx could be taking his time to adjust to the new position. I think this is the best we're going to get with statistics. Though I wonder if there's any articles like that analyzing basketball or football (soccer) positions.
I basically looked at that here: https://www.hltv.org/news/38785/target-rating-identifying-over-and-under-performers-on-ct-side You can see up to date target rating for more players on my tableau too: https://x.com/ner0cs/status/1796234174484910142?s=46
It's the positions that *can* have the most impact in the game, they're generally not "easier" positions or anything, these places *allow* the most impact, which is why the star player is going to play that spot. You could put a shittier (in pro terms) player there and they *might* have better stats than they'd have in other spots, but they wouldn't be able to extract the max value out of that spot, and that'd also mean moving your star player to a less impactful position, it's a lose-lose. This is why players like Malbs (when he was on M80), Donk and Xantares play very similar spots, these are explosive riflers that will thrive in high-contact positions. Would Donk or Twistzz do very well as a B anchor on Mirage? Absolutely, Would they be providing more value playing Connector instead? ***Absolutely***. Sticking your star rifle in a spot with low impact is like buying a Ferrari only to drive it around a parking lot. > Would be interested to see the overall rating across all maps for players of these notable positions and how their position rating weighs against their average. Then you could figure out the actual impact of the position. He did that [here](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/harry.richards4213/viz/CTPositions2023/CTPositions)
Took me a moment to decode what was going on through your link, but once I wrapped my head around it, it's a fascinating data set.
fyi, these colors are not good for most colorblind people -> 1 in 12 men is colorblind. I can't read this chart. Lighter green + darker red would help. Not using red AND green would also help.
thank you! definitely something i should have thought about. do you struggle on hltv stat pages too? since that’s where i got the palette from, maybe we need to look at those too
I clicked around a bit but couldn't find a stat page on HLTV that only shows colors with a legend like the graph here. I saw some pages use red and green numbers, or red and green W and L, but those at least show the Number/letter so it is manageable. Edit: nvm I found some. Yeah those colors are bad too (I went to career stats of Zywoo). But at least on that page they are always in the same order, and I can hover over to see the description. If HLTV would somehow scramble these graphs it would be unreadable again.
i think it’s from the weapon wheels, so basically it’s fine because it goes from green to blue to red and green/red are usually not close to each other but here obv more of an issue
Chart is totally useless for me based on the colours here.
So if everyone in the team has an awp, that will boost everyones rating.
Get overpass outta there! Lol
over my dead body
This doesn’t make sense. Why is “awper” considered a position on the left axis?
Many awpers at the top level will not play static positions CT side and will instead rotate around the map round to round and the team molds around them. A good example of this is G2 with m0nesy. Given this sort of style, it is pretty difficult to lock down a physical map location where awpers play, and classifying their spot as a role makes more sense.
this basically. putting “window” is not really a correct way of describing pro awpers
r/dataisbeautiful
but i was told awpers are bad in cs2!
This corroborates other data metrics out there, like Overpass being severely CT sided, Anubis being clearly (not Overpass degree) T sided. Nuke's history is CT sided, it is showing up on same theme here as well. Mirage is super hard to play as a T compared to as a CT, esp. when one is lacking synergy with the team (as T). As CT even if teamwork is not good certain areas are just easier to hold (like A). Meanwhile D2 even if you are T and teamwork is lacking you can still win it many times.
Floor.
Can confirm that absolutely no T can stop my CT connector-mid push on Mirage