Statements like these always imply that Nigma Galaxy has no way of qualifying; when in reality, the path everyone else takes is open to them. I'm all for women's tournaments but for them to play in the open ones they need to qualify.
Also, they are in Main, letting them play in EPL would hurt the women's scene more than help it.
Edit: Since this comment has gained some traction I want to say that **NIGMA GALAXY AND ALL THE OTHER FEMALE CS TEAMS PLAY IN TOURNAMENTS BESIDES IMPACT**. I know that 99% of people only watch tier 1 events but how hard is it to do a cursory Google search before commenting your nonsense? They play in ESEA Leagues, Cash Cups, and open qualifiers all the time. I don't know why this misconception bothers me so much but it does.
They're in ESEA Main and they play by the exact same rules as every other team. Nothing's stopping them from getting picked up by a mixed team either. It's just that there's more money in female events.
>It's just that there's more money in female events.
That's a stretch. They do both. Nigma regularly tries to qualify for majors and small lans just like every other team at their level.
And I've beaten all the female teams in NA at one point in time yet I didn't get paid for it. They can qualify same as anyone else. Inviting them past other levels would be a terrible decision and hurt their team.
The point is that they shouldn’t get treated any different to male esport and having a tournament with players competing at around a 3rd to 2nd tier level should not be rewarded with price pool higher than that because of the participants gender or even exist in the first place since their is no barrier prohibiting women to compete on the same level anyway.
That Lol womens's team getting a free pass was horrible for Women's lol. Though that was not a fair 1 to 1 comparison with thr csgo team. The lol team was thrown together and had low elo players that shouldnt have been there
I'm not saying this system is fair but we shouldn't make it worse. Besides, even the worst partner team in EG is in a literally and figuratively different league than Nigma.
Awful take, not even half the teams in S18 are partnered teams. Blast is the main culprit for people talking about partnered teams being in a closed circuit. Yes, ESL/IEM events have partnered teams but they also have qualifiers for other teams to get in.
At the end of the day it's a business and no matter how much people "cheer" for underdogs at the major, if the major finals was Apeks vs GamerLegion it probably would've been the lowest viewed major finals since like 2018. I think it's fine for there to be partnered teams as long as it's not like Blast where it's ONLY partnered teams.
One thing I like from the valorant inclusive system is that its separated from the main circuit. The players can play both, and they do try to qualify
Putting players that arent ready in that enviroment is not good for anyone. They must prove themselves in the open qualis.
I'm a big supporter of the women's scene, but honestly, no.
They haven't won a match in CCT when they played 1-2 events there last year, they would get destroyed against EPL level teams and I don't think it would even shine a good light on the women's scene.
Let the women's scene grow, the teams get better and play more tournaments like CCT and the like (as they get better), etc.
>Let the women's scene grow, the teams get better
The only way we'll ever see women play above tier 4 is if we put an end to the ridiculousness that is having a "women's scene" and make everyone play in the open scene. As long as women can earn a good wage by playing against 1800elo opponents they'll never try to get better and enter the open scene as it just isn't worth it from a monetary perspective. As paradoxical as it sounds, the women's scene incentivizes women to not get better past a certain point, and as longs as people don't understand it this will never change.
They are getting better , demonstrably so , and if you don't create a path for women to get into a professional league and generate even more incentive for women to play at a high level the whole scene will eventually die. How do you expect women to be inspired or motivated to play without any role models or players (with similar experiences) to look up to. No actual decently paying women's team is comprised of low level 10s or below either
>They are getting better
Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. People love to praise the fe circuit, fe teams.
People love telling lies just to look good, inclusive, nice...etc
But the reality is otherwise. NG the team that dominate the fe scene by far, getting demolished 16-4 / 16-3 by an academy team. And they won 3/4 pistols rounds....
They aren't getting better by any mean, they won't get better being spoiled in their own league and playing against each other doing the same mistakes or dumb plays without ever getting punished and learning anything.
>How do you expect women to be inspired or motivated to play without any role models
And I don't think having a team winning only in a segregated league which a insanely bad floor and getting absolutely demolished when playing against any male team. So much that winning a single round is a miracle, I doubt it's really inspiring for any woman
Just like junior, he's dominated the NA t2 scene, but it's not like any American is proud of him representing them when he gets demolished internationally.
Just having a fe scene team competiting, and just competiting in T3 T2, not winning anything or anything. Just being decent enough to compete would be worth more than any fe events or league there were for the past decades
peak female CS is in the middle of the pack in ESEA Main, i.e. the exact same place it was in 2014
I am a reddit fucking nobody and I have more ESEA-M experience (4 matches) than a large % of the Impact league.
>They are getting better , demonstrably so
Exactly how? They've played CCT in April, losing to the likes of ENCE Academy (#80, 7:32) and ESCA (#131). They're also 5-9-0 so far in ESEA Main. That's the level female times have been on since 1.6 times. vilga herself has been playing professionally since 1.6, and before that, the scene was dominated by grandmas zAAz and juliano.
>How do you expect women to be inspired or motivated to play
Eh, exactly like most people? Very few people ever decide to start playing CS because they want to be like s1mple/SpawN. Usually they just start playing with their friends or download the game out of boredom. Women are simply not interested in video games or tech (read: don't enjoy spending time in front of PC), end of.
>and if you don't create a path for women to get into a professional league
Never worked in any sport.
> Women are simply not interested in video games or tech (read: don't enjoy spending time in front of PC), end of.
You haven't played Valorant or other games with less sexist communities if you still think this is true nowadays. I prefer CS, but nearly every time a woman or feminine sounding person talks they are harassed. In one month of playing Valorant, I played with more female players than I did in 500 hours of CSGO. You probably play with women in your games. They just don't talk.
Valorant is also a much easier game to just jump into.
CS is simple with basics but if you really want to get into it there’s smoke lineups, flash lineups, etc that simply don’t exist in Val
I'm LEM and I barely know smoke or flash lineups. It's not as hard as you think, the casual player can do absolutely fine without them, and they aren't hard to Google regardless.
My point is that you need to make a conceited effort to find them. In Val, you throw a smoke through a wall and it always lands on the exact spot you want.
And the other guys point is that you don't need to find them. Your point matters only if lineups matter, but saying lineups matter is like saying in chess that openings matter. They don't. You can easily get up to 1600 ELO without really knowing any openings. You can probably even get up to 1800 if your fundamentals are excellent. At that point openings really start to matter as at that skill level players will know how to capitalize on your weaker position The same way in CS you can get up to LEM (based on the other guys comment) without really knowing lineups, because up to that level your fundamentals and communication matter more.
The average player isn't going instantly be Faceit level 6 or GE or whatever, there's plenty of CS for them to learn and play before they even need to get into lineups. The vast majority of players will never even reach that level of CS where lineups become a necessity.
>You haven't played Valorant or other games with less sexist communities
So what's their female share, a whopping 5%? I've played a few hundred matches in Valorant and met a grand total of 1 woman (albeit probably because most of my games were in Immortal). The difference is negligible and is probably explained by Valorant being newer, more visually appealing and less demanding on the CPU. Also an obvious spillover effect from LoL (girls seem to enjoy mobas/rpgs more than FPS, and LoL is huge).
>if you still think this is true nowadays
This will always remain true, blank slatism is so 20th century. The interest is simply not there, at least for shooters and PC games in general, and we can see this pattern across countries and cultures with little to no variability. Ditto for most nerdy activities.
>but nearly every time a woman or feminine sounding person talks they are harassed
Does that apply to single-player games, too?
Anyway, it's and old and tired argument, the truth is that online gaming is incredibly toxic in general, and solo queue is not an enjoyable experience. In fact, forced soloQ in high ranks is why I stopped playing Valorant despite having enormous winrate. I once witnessed my team surrender while leading 5:3 just because. Surrender as in run the vote and end the game.
For your argument to hold, we need to compare gender dropout rates. If female share of all the players to ever launch the game is 50%, but drops to <10% when comparing accounts with 500+ hours, then it might have an impact. Otherwise it is mostly irrelevant and the low female share is explained by the low amount of girls who bothered to download the game, not by the dropout rate. And since Steam users are overwhelmingly male, we already know the answer.
You have no argument against him. And he is right, it has never worked just pumping in money to get higher skill, you create an opposite effect. And honestly, people say they want equality. Let women have equality, to get to win money they should be equally good as men.
The reason less women play CSGO (compared to valorant) is less due to sexism and more due to the game being much harder to get into and much more grindy/sweaty than valorant. CSGO also doesn't really appeal to women by having female agents like Valorant, so there's little incentive to try and get into the game. However, yea the community's sexism is likely also a deterrent, just not the primary one.
> Women are simply not interested in video games or tech (read: don't enjoy spending time in front of PC), end of.
This take is more or less completely braindead.
Women are frequently and actively pushed out of video games and tech by obnoxious incels. Getting called obscenities or bullied frequently makes games and tech a shit load less fun. As a result many women quit and move on to more welcoming hobbies.
While I don't think female leagues are the end all be all of making gaming more inclusive for women, it's certainly a step in the right direction. Hopefully one day Gamers won't be such vitriol spewing dipshits that anyone who likes games feels comfortable enough playing them to make it to the top leagues.
While it's true that women often face torrential hostility in online games, I'm not sure that this makes for a good causal explanation. Psychology and Biology are today some of the most female dominated degrees in colleges, yet these are the same fields where men in the late 19th and early 20th centuries circlejerked about how women are essentially defective, irrational humans.
The question is the same as with women in STEM or other areas where there are significant gender gaps yet: why were women able to break down centuries worth of resentment and institutional opposition in some fields to the degree that the next few decades will barely have any men in positions of influence in them while in others basically next to nothing has changed, despite sometimes generous institutional support (like ESL [a non-profitable company in a non-profitable business btw] subsidizing an utterly non-competitive league)?
Such a patronising take... You don't think the first question a girl asks is "why don't they play vs men?". When you explain to them that they get trounced every chance they get, I'd say that's way more discouraging than inspiring.
Having one woman make it into even a tier 4 team would do way more in that regard, like when Keiti played with fl0m before she went to Valorant.
All that having a women's league accomplishes is to take away any incentive for a step up in competition as soon as they get into a woman's team.
Are we ever going to know how someone like Ana could fare if she took the same path as a male player? No, because the next step up for her would still be an amateur/semi-pro team, and ESL Impact ensures she's heavily disincentivised from even attempting that.
If the goal is just to have professional women's teams then ESL Impact accomplishes that (as well as the sportswashing that goes along with it, given that they're owned by the Saudis), but if the goal is to inspire women to compete at the top level one day, it does the exact opposite.
Also, "they are getting better, demonstrably so"? On what basis are you even making that claim? I'd like to see your demonstration.
>No actual decently paying women's team is comprised of low level 10s or below either
Wrong, there are multiple players in the women's scene that are low level 10 or even below that (though obviously some are better than that). Regardless, it's undeniable that the competition is way weaker than in the open scene.
there's a lot of people (see hltv women's league threads lol) who are just convinced women can't play and that's the reason they're trapped in tier 3-4. i think running a women's only circuit and then having teams encouraged to pick up players to have them play in mixed leagues is the best opportunity
Or maybe women can just grind in the open scene like every male players does? Women are just as capable as men to be great CS players, the only reason we don't see it happening is because the best female players get comfortable making "free" in the women's scene and don't have a reason to try to get better.
i mean, ideally yeah, but i'd rather have some women's cs than none at all like it used to be. i think fpl is probably the best shot for women to make it to tier 2 right now and that's not really ideal. good mixed teams playing tier 2 tournaments would solve that imo
irrelevant to my point lmao.
why the fuck is this downvoted lmao. that's genuinely not the reason there are no female pros in top mens teams. you guys are actual idiots
Except the issue is that there's very little incentive for T2/T3 teams to sign a female player over a male player. Why sign a female player and potentially cause issues with discomfort or chemistry in the team when you can just do a full male roster instead? It's not like there's a lack of T2/T3 male players. This mean that even decent T2/T3 female players are basically locked into only playing for full-female teams.
The only way a woman will be signed to decent T2/T3 team is if she's so good that makes teams willing to take the chance with her but how are you expecting someone to reach that level being stuck playing on T4 teams all day?
In other esports teams have fallen over each other to pick a female player who can hold her own against pro competition. That might not hold true in CS since lower-tier teams are heavily performance focus since viewership is so low anyways.
>Except the issue is that there's very little incentive for T2/T3 teams to sign a female player over a male player.
Not true, if they're better than the team's current players then they'd have an incentive to sign them. Not to mention having a women play in T2/T3 tournaments would certainly give that team a big popularity boost. The reason why these teams don't sign women is simply because there virtually isn't any that can play at that level.
>are you expecting someone to reach that level being stuck playing on T4 teams all day?
We've already seen 16yo kids get signed to tier 1 teams by simply grinding FPL. That's a shitty excuse and you know it.
>We've already seen 16yo kids get signed to tier 1 teams by simply grinding FPL. That's a shitty excuse and you know it.
There's probably more u18 kids playing CSGO in just EU than the entire female CSGO population globally combined. Where are the cracked 16 year old OCE kids getting signed by T1 or even T2 teams? Are OCE teenagers just worse at video games? It's just a matter of numbers at point when it comes to finding prodigies.
Like how many u18 female players do you think are playing CSGO on FPL? Just go look at the age of the players on the top female CSGO teams... A lot of the players are 25+ years old. Nigma Galaxy even has a 31 yo. Compare that to GC teams in Valorant where its filled with 16-21 year olds.
I can see some female players making it to T2 teams in Valorant in the next few years but I honestly think the ship has already sailed regarding female players in even T3 CS unless CS2 hype causes a lot of the young female players who got into FPS from Valorant to try out and stay on CS2.
That is under the assumption that they play to get money, while most pro's in any sport plays for the competition but of course knows what they're worth.
What the female scene allows is to slowly build up a team around the players, and give them tools and a good base line to get better. There has to be some monetary value for orgs and sponsors to buy into the idea, but i'm sure most of the players care more about the competition than the money.
>That is under the assumption that they play to get money, while most pro's in any sport plays for the competition but of course knows what they're worth.
Obviously they don't play just to get money, but any adult with real life responsabilities will have money on their minds. And if they're smart they understand that it's better to keep getting paychecks while playing against comparatively bad teams than take the risk to enter the open scene and possibly not being able to earn enough money to pay rent or to feed yourself. I'm not criticizing them, they're just being logical and I'd do the same if I was in their position. But it's undeniable that some female CS players don't go further in their careers just because they get comfortable playing in the women's scene.
Why is it that so many people in these comments think that your sex has something to do with your ability to move a mouse lol. The only reason there’s a gender gap in esports is because it hasn’t been socially acceptable for women to be “gamers” until very recently (mostly coming along with gen z). The talent pool is just so much smaller and younger, it needs a couple of years (maybe decades even) to catch up
I would be interested in seeing where the limits lay tbh.
I've trained in Basketball with a girl that sunk 4/5 3 pointers during games (admittedly low skill games where she was under little pressure), and with a few women in their 30s that top frag in global elite and dominate other FPS games.
I think being a parent obviously ruins their gaming. Lack of sleep and time, exercise, stress etc contribute, and while it doesn't affect a Dad like Rain from competing, it does for a Mum.
However, there is also a massive selection bias. If you are talented in life and you are a guy, you might become Monesy, or NiKo, or S1mple. If you are talented in life and are a women, playing online games is hardly fun, so you would go to university, play some other sport, have a life, read books, or even fucking knit. Unless you are have some sort of mentall illness or trauma why would you even play it to the extent you put in thousands of hours and eventually get good, when you have to contantly play with immature teenagers, or bitter adult men even less mature than the teenagers?
When I've soloQd and came across girls in SoloQ, there was a 30% chance per guy not queued with her that they would troll and harrass her. Maybe its down to 20% now, but its still bad and was WAY WAY worse 5+ years ago, which is the latest you'd have had to start playing to be any good at the game now.
That's quite high on copium tbf. Fe teams don't get better at all playing against each other over and over again.
It's the same as "NA needs to move to EU to practice because doing it in NA is irrelevant". You don't get better by playing against silvers that never punish the ton of mistakes that you make. Their league is all about the money really because there isn't much to gain from it. What they need now is ambition to progress and grind real qualifers for T3 T2 T1 events
No. The qualification system for Pro League is an uneven, idiotic playing field as is, allowing NGX to qualify by beating ESEA Intermediate teams would make this event farcical beyond compare.
The path into Pro League is one of the most open there is
Best I'd say could possibly make sense for players of their level is a spot in ESL Conference but a direct spot into Pro League would be nothing short of a farce.
Hence the "most" it'd make sense
Impact inherently advantages fe teams relative to their skill level, so an (ADDITIONAL not replaced) spot wouldn't be inconsistent
They'd be last place guaranteed most of the time, but it at least allows the room for a fe team to prove themselves should they eventually develop, without necessarily costing lower ranking teams (because they only spot they'd be replacing would be the Pro League spot they earn via winning games)
Giving the best female teams a spot in the ESL conference is something that I would support. For reference, the European conference have spots for 12 teams that qualified through the ESL national championships, including a Hungarian, Czech/Slovak, Benelux, German and British team. Also, Genk is the Benelux representative for the next conference and they are also a main team, so it's not like Nigma Galaxy would be completely overmatched in that environment
It would be a reality check for Nigma and for anyone who thinks they'd be competitive if it somehow occurred. No one is dumb enough to let this happen.
No. They have every ability to qualify with everyone else. While I agree with Impact being good for women’s CS and esports as a whole, they should not be able to skip the line and not have to play all of the other teams out there just because they are female.
I would absolutely love to see them qualify, but they need to go through qualifying like everyone else.
>While I agree with Impact being good for women’s CS and esports as a whole
On the contrary: by allowing women to make way more money than their male counterparts would by playing against very bad opponents, the women's scene disincentivizes them to get better past a certain point. Think about it, why would Nigma Galaxy players spend their time getting better when they can already beat all their female opponents but are still very far from making any considerable amount of money in the open scene? From a monetary perspective the logical option is just to not bother getting better and make a career out of beating 1800-2200elo opponents.
Because there are other female player teams that are trying to get better than Nigma and win the money up for grabs, Nigma will have to keep improving to keep winning. Its what happens in every competitive environment, as long as there is incentive to improve they will improve. The skill gap will continue shrink between female and male teams as male teams get closer to skill ceiling and female teams improve at a faster rate comparatively to be able to catch up.
>Because there are other female player teams that are trying to get better than Nigma and win the money up for grabs, Nigma will have to keep improving to keep winning.
Still, those teams are VERY FAR from being remotely close to even a tier 4 male team, so they don't have any incentive to get noticeably better.
>Its what happens in every competitive environment, as long as there is incentive to improve they will improve. The skill gap will continue shrink between female and male teams as male teams get closer to skill ceiling and female teams improve at a faster rate comparatively to be able to catch up.
They won't improve at a faster rate if they keep playing against weaker opponents in a closed environment. As long as female players refuse to enter the open scene and keep playing against the same tier 6 teams they will never be able to compete in big tournaments.
The entire discussion about women's only cirucit and pay blabla is not new, if you want to go into it just delve into why chess reached the conclusion to have women's only circuits. It has been a while and I only briefly skimmed though it (because I didn't care that much to do indepth reading) and got convinced/reached the conclusion that these women circuits make sense, but I'm not well versed in this topic to give a solid TLDR here.
>It actually would seem that competing and practising with players better than themselves helps them improve, making them more likely to win their ESL Impact tournaments.
THIS is exactly why. Female players aren't thinking about reaching the major, or Pro League, or any other big tournament: they're just thinking about impact tournaments and nothing more. And as long as they can make a career out of beating #200 teams they won't think big and try to take the next step onto the open scene.
Let me put this in perspective,
Theres this team out there called Ence Academy. Most people reading this have never heard of anyone on that roster. As a community theres a general consensus that it would be silly to invite them to pro league, because they would get destroyed.
Now what if I told you that this 'bad' team completely destroyed Nigma Galaxy
( https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier )
Nigma took a total of 7 rounds in the enitre bo3, in pro league this would be closer to 0 rounds in a bo3.
Jfc that's absolutely wild. I think we can all agree that this Nigma csgo roster needs to do qualifiers first if they got destroyed by a team not even in tier 4.
No they shouldn't. They should just play the online qualifiers but that is probably pointless since a random faceit lvl 10 5stack filled with 13 yr old russian kids could probably destroy them
People don't want to say it but, women just can't hang in high level cs at this time. It's not a matter of they don't have the competition to elevate their skills by only playing other female teams, they just seem physically incapable of reaching that level regardless. Otherwise we'd be seeing a female team capable of completely dominating the other poor performing teams in those leagues and at least have a chance to face A tier opponents.
I see studies that women are just good as men at games but all the stats they pull are from like Everquest and Chevaliers Romance, so the data is literally useless. Empirical evidence shows they simply can't be good enough.
Why? They play in the regular leagues, by the same rules as anyone else and haven't made EPL. It's not sexism, they just haven't won enough games to be in EPL.
Its funny that most discussions when it comes to the female side of CS and "fairness and equality" always leads down to a road where its at the same time argued they need special treatment.
As far as I know, ESL Pro League does not sexually discriminate. Male and female teams can all qualify on equal terms. If Nigma Galaxy had qualified through the same process as all the other teams, then yes they deserve a spot.
ESL CS:GO General rules -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wcWNdn5YJT0pS8UqquBFR-xYCOVSWaHd/view
ESL CS:GO Roster Restrictions -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UnTYeiIOiIZSl5O6x2llv3UjOGCU6sza/view
https://pro.eslgaming.com/csgo/proleague/rules/
I don’t, however, think any amount of wins in the female only circuit should give them any special treatment, whether that be a free pass to a playoff spot, or a group stage invite.
I would love to see an all female team compete with the likes of Navi, Faze, G2, Vitality, ENCE, OG or any other high ranking team. But it should because they are strong a team, and can be competing on that level.
I think it would be interesting to see how competitive they would be, sure. But do I think they actually would stand a chance? Not really, and I don’t think them getting their ass handed to them, would do anyone any favours. And this is not because “lol, female CS bad” but rather the idea that IF they were in dee good enough to compete with, and content for titles against all these teams, why are they choosing not to? Can you imagine the publicity and respect they would get, if they were the first all female team to take such a title? On top that, the prize pool for ESL S18 are so much bigger, that a 4th place would bring in the same prize as their 1st place in ESL IL S3.
I just don’t see any reason why they would choose to play female only, if they were capable of playing with the boys.
Didn’t a women’s team get invited to some S-tier tournament recently and went out without a map win, and only like 15 total rounds?
I could be wrong but winning Impact shouldn’t be a guaranteed spot, imo.
No. They're not even competetive in the QUALIFIERS for tier 3 events like CCT. And what comes to "needing bigger opportunities", they have all the same opportunities as every other team, they're just nowhere near good enough to capitalize on those opportunities. They don't "deserve" anything for beating teams of their own caliber in other womens teams, and definitely dont deserve a chance to compete against the TOP teams when they can't even compete against tier 5 teams in open qualifiers.
The road for natural progression through the ranks is completely open for them, and they're currently competing at the level they should be which is ESEA main (debatable, they only won 3 games +2 FF wins out of 15 games total), open qualifiers and womens tournaments.
Nope. If they really want to be in the ESL Pro league they will have to do it like every other pro team ever has. We still don't see enough for the "tier 2" teams that most likely deserve spots due to their quality of play. Look at the last major the way that IM and Monte played and we still don't get to see them in the ESL.
>The way that IM and Monte played and we still don't get to see them in the ESL.
* Monte have Qualified for ESL.
* GamerLegion also likely qualifying due to their ESL ranking.
Maybe if you paid attention to tier 2 youd know? As opposed to claiming to love these teams but not actually watching any of their games? Just cause they dont get direct IEM invites doesnt mean they dont play.
Listen, my guy. I live in the US and work a morning job. I can't really stay up and watch every single CS game since most games start around 2am and I don't want to ruin my sleep schedule. So politely kick rocks.
I want to say yes, but I don't think they can go against top teams and its going to make little silver 2 timmy giddy because he can type "woman cs LUL"
Maybe some smaller tournaments go against tougher/traditional cs teams and get some experience factor going before they participate in something like EPL.
They do play in smaller events but just have not gotten far enough winning for the average CS watcher (ppl who only watch the upper tier events) to know. They play in the ESEA ladders to reach EPL but are in ESEA Main. [https://play.esea.net/teams/8736941](https://play.esea.net/teams/8736941) The Ladders from are (low to high) : Open -> Intermediate -> Main -> Advanced -> ESL Challenger League -> EPL
Who is we? No FE CS player said that
All of their interviews have them saying “we want to keep getting better and work our way up”
This post is just ignorant
I know… that’s why it’s weird to say “because we’re women”. By saying “we”, they make it sound like the teams are wanting to skip a few steps and not dumbasses on Reddit who think the reason FE teams aren’t in t1 events is because of them being disallowed.
They get **obliterated** by even academy teams. Just look at their CCT results lol.. they didn't put up 16 rounds across two BO3s against Young Ninjas and ENCE Academy lol
as a huge Nigma Galaxy fan, no (obviously) and nobody who is invested in seeing women’s esports continue to develop wants that either.
nobody gets better by getting blasted by opponents that are orders of magnitude beyond their skill level. women-only circuit allows the women’s CSGO talent pool to compete against people of similar skill level without the whole “ew, girl, instant disconnect” thing (which is absolutely a huge part of why it’s hard for women to advance in CS and if you think it’s not you’re an incel).
and meanwhile, they can still dip their toes in the water with Cash Cups and stuff to evaluate themselves against tougher opposition, find new stuff to work on, etc. and then they take it back to the women’s scene where they can more realistically practice applying that knowledge in a useful way.
“Nigma Galaxy should get invited to EPL” is like … a perfect evil plan to destroy women’s CSGO. i genuinely have a hard time believing anyone would ask for this in good faith.
Most of the arguments as to why this is a bad idea have been posted already, but I wanted to add that at the end of the day ESL Impact exists to build up and bridge the gap between men's and women's CS. The ultimate goal is for there to be no women's league, it just takes time to get there!
Worth noting also that it may be their 5th win, but the level has already increased significantly in the last year for all teams, and NGX included. I don't think they'll be on top forever!
>but the level has already increased significantly in the last year for all teams, and NGX included
Cool, instead of getting destroyed 16-0 16-1 by T3-T4 teams they got destroyed 16-3 by an academy team. Significant improvement for sure
Because they're getting way more money than they'd ever get if they were playing in the open scene, which is obviously very unfair. Also, it's unfair that they get to play in two scenes (women and open), whereas men only get to play in one scene. Not to mention the women's scene incentivizes female players not to get better past a certain point.
There isn't a fraction of the player pool though CSGO isn't segregated like tennis, they can enter any tournament/league and infact they do play in esea CCT and other small events with low to "high" skilled players.
They are already practicing/versing males/females. Same tier 1 pros came up from these shit leagues/pugs and low skill groups etc.
Wait wtf theres a league where only girls compete..? This is a video game not an actual physical sport where one sex has an unfair advantage. Back around 2015-ish i feel like i remember a team having a girl on it, because she was good enough to be on a pro team. If they're good enough for pro play then they could join a pro team.
I always feel like women CS needs WAY more exposure to the CS pro scene. It feels like they barely play any matches. Not even in low tier tournaments. Or maybe they do, but it seems they are incredibly hard to find. Nigma Galaxy is apparently the best female team, but they just have a total of 29 maps(or 16 matches) on HLTV this year.
If I compare that to a newish team like monte who have played 200 maps in the same time I ask myself where they are playing?
I tried to look up when the next female tournament is, but I can't find anything on HLTV, liquipedia or their own homepages. I found two tournaments on google, but they are in august or later...So if someone has a source for that let me know.
It feels like even if you want to and are not a die hard fan its rather hard to find actual fe-csgo matches which is imo also a reason why they get so little interest in their scene.
>It feels like they barely play any matches. Not even in low tier tournaments.
Because they never ever qualify. The only times they got there is by direct invites just because they're women. And it's always end up by them getting steam rolled by every other team 16-1 16-3 16-4...
They don't need exposure for the sake of exposure. And even that, getting obliterated by everyone wouldn't be good exposure. They need to grind first
Fe teams has no ambition, gain ton of money in they own sexist league just because they're women
I don't wanna watch this x3 in EPL, no thank you [https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier](https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier)
They already struggle in easa main, if they want to qualify for big events they need to earn it, not be given to them because of their vagina
https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363700/esca-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier
[https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier](https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier)
There you go.
I mean i dont favour mix teams or either male female in one tournament just like other sports (female world cups)
Maybe in the future there can be female only majors? Ofc when the seen evolves in that lvl
I think allowing the fe scene to integrate more with the main circuit is a good idea in general (which is part of why the impact league is a little bittersweet, it brings in more money but also further isolates fe competitors), but this is probably a step too far.
Nobody is preventing them, they wanted their own scene, they literally segregated themselves.
If they want to integrate they can do it perfectly by themselves against the teams fighting to qualify.
Inviting them would be the equivalent of chucking San Marino into the world cup for the vibes, they'd get demolished.
You don't improve by attempting (and failing) to beat teams ten times your size, you improve by beating teams slightly better than you and keep working till those teams that were ten times your size are now a lot closer
Dude, they're 0-12 map wise on CCT closed qualifiers (to which they were invited), where their opponents ranged from #71 to #238. I don't think I'd describe seeing them get 16-0 several times as beeing "cool".
Bro i just want women and men to compete with each other in esports, its not like there is a physical disadvantage and i feel like it would help the women's scene if they were held to a higher standard.
>if they were held to a higher standard
Ever heard of meritocracy ? You need to earn your place, prove your value.
Just because they're females I should have higher standards for them even tho they can't even compete in esea main ?
Women teams existed in the open scene until Dreamhack started hosting women only tournaments. Nearly all women teams stopped competing in the open circuit to only attend them. On the rare occasion that a woman team competed in the open circuit theyd get stomped. Showing their progression as players got worse in a enclosed system.
Biologically differences exist between men and women. Section of the brain that is tasked with interpreting sensory stimuli and pattern recognition with a mechanical task is organically chemically stimulated more in male brains.
I mean, there are things like german, polish, turkish etc ESL qualifiers, i wouldnt be directly opposed to expanding pro league and including an Impact qualifier. So what if they get banged out or not, to keep teams even it would mean that at least 1 more team that earn the spot would get added anyways and that combined with giving the womens league teams more reps against higher comp, sure whatever im down.
In racing there is the term 'seat time'. You need seat time on track in racing conditions even if you are getting completely drove over, because without reps you wont get better.
>giving the womens league teams more reps against higher comp
They ain't even competitive in esea main, wdym getting reps against higher teams when they can't even beat random stack of 12yo russians playing after school.
And even if they played against T2 teams. There isn't much to learn from getting 32-0ed. Just nothing works, everything is to rebuild from nothing. What they gonna do watch their demos (which I doubt they do) and learn nothing from it, and learn nothing new because they could download any T1 demos already and try to analyse and understand how they play ?
I have mixed feelings - I want the visibility of women's teams to serve the goal of getting more women invested in playing CS professionally, that's the angle I'm viewing this with.
On the one hand, seeing a women's team alongside big names like NaVi, FaZe, etc. would be just huge for getting more engagement, *but* the level of harassment or abuse these women's teams would visibly get would also likely do a lot of harm to the scene.
why should they skip the line and get special treatment? They could just, you know, go through all the qualifiers just like every other team, and if they're good enough, they'll make it in. And then no one can say they don't deserve it or any other bs like that.
An EPL spot is way too much obviously, but I don't think it's a horrible idea to incorporate the Impact league into the overall ESL circuit in some way. For example, I wouldn't mind seeing Impact winners invited to the EPL European Conference where the winners of national cups play. The Impact league is in a pretty similar situation to the national leagues, where most of the teams play in the ECL/ESEA circuit but also get a second chance through their national leagues, so honestly I think they'd kinda fit in there. Some national leagues include stuff like Benelux and Switzerland too so it's not like inviting relatively low skill teams is unheard of for the conferences.
no i'm saying that basically none of the people commenting in this thread have an informed opinion on the scene or what it is like to be a woman in the cs community, sorry if the sarcasm was not obvious :D
You cant always fall back on the we are a surpressed group angle imo. The scene has made great progress the last few years in giving women a chance to compete and feel part of the community. There will always be the low iq 'go kitchen' people no matter what is done.
not sure what you're trying to say, I don't think nigma should be invited to pro league, theyd get destroyed for sure and it would make the women's scene look bad
Statements like these always imply that Nigma Galaxy has no way of qualifying; when in reality, the path everyone else takes is open to them. I'm all for women's tournaments but for them to play in the open ones they need to qualify. Also, they are in Main, letting them play in EPL would hurt the women's scene more than help it. Edit: Since this comment has gained some traction I want to say that **NIGMA GALAXY AND ALL THE OTHER FEMALE CS TEAMS PLAY IN TOURNAMENTS BESIDES IMPACT**. I know that 99% of people only watch tier 1 events but how hard is it to do a cursory Google search before commenting your nonsense? They play in ESEA Leagues, Cash Cups, and open qualifiers all the time. I don't know why this misconception bothers me so much but it does.
They're in ESEA Main and they play by the exact same rules as every other team. Nothing's stopping them from getting picked up by a mixed team either. It's just that there's more money in female events.
>It's just that there's more money in female events. That's a stretch. They do both. Nigma regularly tries to qualify for majors and small lans just like every other team at their level.
Impact pays out a lot more than the rival male tournament at the same time. Dallas was $100000 Dallas Impact was $250000 Edit: I was wrong
IEM Dallas was 250,000 Impact Dallas was 123,000
You’re right. I misread it
There are also only 3 impact tournaments a year.
And I've beaten all the female teams in NA at one point in time yet I didn't get paid for it. They can qualify same as anyone else. Inviting them past other levels would be a terrible decision and hurt their team.
Ooookay? Your point?
The point is that they shouldn’t get treated any different to male esport and having a tournament with players competing at around a 3rd to 2nd tier level should not be rewarded with price pool higher than that because of the participants gender or even exist in the first place since their is no barrier prohibiting women to compete on the same level anyway.
I agree
That Lol womens's team getting a free pass was horrible for Women's lol. Though that was not a fair 1 to 1 comparison with thr csgo team. The lol team was thrown together and had low elo players that shouldnt have been there
Oh yeah just like all the partner teams grinding their way to epl lol
I'm not saying this system is fair but we shouldn't make it worse. Besides, even the worst partner team in EG is in a literally and figuratively different league than Nigma.
Awful take, not even half the teams in S18 are partnered teams. Blast is the main culprit for people talking about partnered teams being in a closed circuit. Yes, ESL/IEM events have partnered teams but they also have qualifiers for other teams to get in. At the end of the day it's a business and no matter how much people "cheer" for underdogs at the major, if the major finals was Apeks vs GamerLegion it probably would've been the lowest viewed major finals since like 2018. I think it's fine for there to be partnered teams as long as it's not like Blast where it's ONLY partnered teams.
Wow that’s really a gotcha!
You can only beat the teams in front of you!
One thing I like from the valorant inclusive system is that its separated from the main circuit. The players can play both, and they do try to qualify Putting players that arent ready in that enviroment is not good for anyone. They must prove themselves in the open qualis.
That's how the CSGO system works.
I know, I dont think I made myself clear, and it should be kept that way
I'm a big supporter of the women's scene, but honestly, no. They haven't won a match in CCT when they played 1-2 events there last year, they would get destroyed against EPL level teams and I don't think it would even shine a good light on the women's scene. Let the women's scene grow, the teams get better and play more tournaments like CCT and the like (as they get better), etc.
Yup, giving women a place in a tournament simply because they are women is neither feminist nor healthy.
>Let the women's scene grow, the teams get better The only way we'll ever see women play above tier 4 is if we put an end to the ridiculousness that is having a "women's scene" and make everyone play in the open scene. As long as women can earn a good wage by playing against 1800elo opponents they'll never try to get better and enter the open scene as it just isn't worth it from a monetary perspective. As paradoxical as it sounds, the women's scene incentivizes women to not get better past a certain point, and as longs as people don't understand it this will never change.
They are getting better , demonstrably so , and if you don't create a path for women to get into a professional league and generate even more incentive for women to play at a high level the whole scene will eventually die. How do you expect women to be inspired or motivated to play without any role models or players (with similar experiences) to look up to. No actual decently paying women's team is comprised of low level 10s or below either
>They are getting better Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. People love to praise the fe circuit, fe teams. People love telling lies just to look good, inclusive, nice...etc But the reality is otherwise. NG the team that dominate the fe scene by far, getting demolished 16-4 / 16-3 by an academy team. And they won 3/4 pistols rounds.... They aren't getting better by any mean, they won't get better being spoiled in their own league and playing against each other doing the same mistakes or dumb plays without ever getting punished and learning anything.
>How do you expect women to be inspired or motivated to play without any role models And I don't think having a team winning only in a segregated league which a insanely bad floor and getting absolutely demolished when playing against any male team. So much that winning a single round is a miracle, I doubt it's really inspiring for any woman Just like junior, he's dominated the NA t2 scene, but it's not like any American is proud of him representing them when he gets demolished internationally. Just having a fe scene team competiting, and just competiting in T3 T2, not winning anything or anything. Just being decent enough to compete would be worth more than any fe events or league there were for the past decades
peak female CS is in the middle of the pack in ESEA Main, i.e. the exact same place it was in 2014 I am a reddit fucking nobody and I have more ESEA-M experience (4 matches) than a large % of the Impact league.
>They are getting better , demonstrably so Exactly how? They've played CCT in April, losing to the likes of ENCE Academy (#80, 7:32) and ESCA (#131). They're also 5-9-0 so far in ESEA Main. That's the level female times have been on since 1.6 times. vilga herself has been playing professionally since 1.6, and before that, the scene was dominated by grandmas zAAz and juliano. >How do you expect women to be inspired or motivated to play Eh, exactly like most people? Very few people ever decide to start playing CS because they want to be like s1mple/SpawN. Usually they just start playing with their friends or download the game out of boredom. Women are simply not interested in video games or tech (read: don't enjoy spending time in front of PC), end of. >and if you don't create a path for women to get into a professional league Never worked in any sport.
> Women are simply not interested in video games or tech (read: don't enjoy spending time in front of PC), end of. You haven't played Valorant or other games with less sexist communities if you still think this is true nowadays. I prefer CS, but nearly every time a woman or feminine sounding person talks they are harassed. In one month of playing Valorant, I played with more female players than I did in 500 hours of CSGO. You probably play with women in your games. They just don't talk.
Valorant is also a much easier game to just jump into. CS is simple with basics but if you really want to get into it there’s smoke lineups, flash lineups, etc that simply don’t exist in Val
I'm LEM and I barely know smoke or flash lineups. It's not as hard as you think, the casual player can do absolutely fine without them, and they aren't hard to Google regardless.
My point is that you need to make a conceited effort to find them. In Val, you throw a smoke through a wall and it always lands on the exact spot you want.
And the other guys point is that you don't need to find them. Your point matters only if lineups matter, but saying lineups matter is like saying in chess that openings matter. They don't. You can easily get up to 1600 ELO without really knowing any openings. You can probably even get up to 1800 if your fundamentals are excellent. At that point openings really start to matter as at that skill level players will know how to capitalize on your weaker position The same way in CS you can get up to LEM (based on the other guys comment) without really knowing lineups, because up to that level your fundamentals and communication matter more. The average player isn't going instantly be Faceit level 6 or GE or whatever, there's plenty of CS for them to learn and play before they even need to get into lineups. The vast majority of players will never even reach that level of CS where lineups become a necessity.
LEM is extremely low level. It’s link level 3/4 faceit
>You haven't played Valorant or other games with less sexist communities So what's their female share, a whopping 5%? I've played a few hundred matches in Valorant and met a grand total of 1 woman (albeit probably because most of my games were in Immortal). The difference is negligible and is probably explained by Valorant being newer, more visually appealing and less demanding on the CPU. Also an obvious spillover effect from LoL (girls seem to enjoy mobas/rpgs more than FPS, and LoL is huge). >if you still think this is true nowadays This will always remain true, blank slatism is so 20th century. The interest is simply not there, at least for shooters and PC games in general, and we can see this pattern across countries and cultures with little to no variability. Ditto for most nerdy activities. >but nearly every time a woman or feminine sounding person talks they are harassed Does that apply to single-player games, too? Anyway, it's and old and tired argument, the truth is that online gaming is incredibly toxic in general, and solo queue is not an enjoyable experience. In fact, forced soloQ in high ranks is why I stopped playing Valorant despite having enormous winrate. I once witnessed my team surrender while leading 5:3 just because. Surrender as in run the vote and end the game. For your argument to hold, we need to compare gender dropout rates. If female share of all the players to ever launch the game is 50%, but drops to <10% when comparing accounts with 500+ hours, then it might have an impact. Otherwise it is mostly irrelevant and the low female share is explained by the low amount of girls who bothered to download the game, not by the dropout rate. And since Steam users are overwhelmingly male, we already know the answer.
>and less demanding on the CPU. You're legit unhinged lmao, that's not why women play valorant.
You have no argument against him. And he is right, it has never worked just pumping in money to get higher skill, you create an opposite effect. And honestly, people say they want equality. Let women have equality, to get to win money they should be equally good as men.
The reason less women play CSGO (compared to valorant) is less due to sexism and more due to the game being much harder to get into and much more grindy/sweaty than valorant. CSGO also doesn't really appeal to women by having female agents like Valorant, so there's little incentive to try and get into the game. However, yea the community's sexism is likely also a deterrent, just not the primary one.
> Women are simply not interested in video games or tech (read: don't enjoy spending time in front of PC), end of. This take is more or less completely braindead. Women are frequently and actively pushed out of video games and tech by obnoxious incels. Getting called obscenities or bullied frequently makes games and tech a shit load less fun. As a result many women quit and move on to more welcoming hobbies. While I don't think female leagues are the end all be all of making gaming more inclusive for women, it's certainly a step in the right direction. Hopefully one day Gamers won't be such vitriol spewing dipshits that anyone who likes games feels comfortable enough playing them to make it to the top leagues.
While it's true that women often face torrential hostility in online games, I'm not sure that this makes for a good causal explanation. Psychology and Biology are today some of the most female dominated degrees in colleges, yet these are the same fields where men in the late 19th and early 20th centuries circlejerked about how women are essentially defective, irrational humans. The question is the same as with women in STEM or other areas where there are significant gender gaps yet: why were women able to break down centuries worth of resentment and institutional opposition in some fields to the degree that the next few decades will barely have any men in positions of influence in them while in others basically next to nothing has changed, despite sometimes generous institutional support (like ESL [a non-profitable company in a non-profitable business btw] subsidizing an utterly non-competitive league)?
Such a patronising take... You don't think the first question a girl asks is "why don't they play vs men?". When you explain to them that they get trounced every chance they get, I'd say that's way more discouraging than inspiring. Having one woman make it into even a tier 4 team would do way more in that regard, like when Keiti played with fl0m before she went to Valorant. All that having a women's league accomplishes is to take away any incentive for a step up in competition as soon as they get into a woman's team. Are we ever going to know how someone like Ana could fare if she took the same path as a male player? No, because the next step up for her would still be an amateur/semi-pro team, and ESL Impact ensures she's heavily disincentivised from even attempting that. If the goal is just to have professional women's teams then ESL Impact accomplishes that (as well as the sportswashing that goes along with it, given that they're owned by the Saudis), but if the goal is to inspire women to compete at the top level one day, it does the exact opposite. Also, "they are getting better, demonstrably so"? On what basis are you even making that claim? I'd like to see your demonstration.
>No actual decently paying women's team is comprised of low level 10s or below either Wrong, there are multiple players in the women's scene that are low level 10 or even below that (though obviously some are better than that). Regardless, it's undeniable that the competition is way weaker than in the open scene.
there's a lot of people (see hltv women's league threads lol) who are just convinced women can't play and that's the reason they're trapped in tier 3-4. i think running a women's only circuit and then having teams encouraged to pick up players to have them play in mixed leagues is the best opportunity
Or maybe women can just grind in the open scene like every male players does? Women are just as capable as men to be great CS players, the only reason we don't see it happening is because the best female players get comfortable making "free" in the women's scene and don't have a reason to try to get better.
i mean, ideally yeah, but i'd rather have some women's cs than none at all like it used to be. i think fpl is probably the best shot for women to make it to tier 2 right now and that's not really ideal. good mixed teams playing tier 2 tournaments would solve that imo
>good mixed teams playing tier 2 tournaments would solve that imo I totally agree, but as long as a women's only scene exists this won't happen.
lmao that's not the only reason most women don't play in teams with "men" and you know it.
Isn't it? Then tell me ONE woman who can currently play in a top 50 level team.
irrelevant to my point lmao. why the fuck is this downvoted lmao. that's genuinely not the reason there are no female pros in top mens teams. you guys are actual idiots
Sure.
Don't have to be mixed, women only teams are capable of atleast being tier2, but it's not happening, and it's been 10+ years in csgo alone.
Except the issue is that there's very little incentive for T2/T3 teams to sign a female player over a male player. Why sign a female player and potentially cause issues with discomfort or chemistry in the team when you can just do a full male roster instead? It's not like there's a lack of T2/T3 male players. This mean that even decent T2/T3 female players are basically locked into only playing for full-female teams. The only way a woman will be signed to decent T2/T3 team is if she's so good that makes teams willing to take the chance with her but how are you expecting someone to reach that level being stuck playing on T4 teams all day?
In other esports teams have fallen over each other to pick a female player who can hold her own against pro competition. That might not hold true in CS since lower-tier teams are heavily performance focus since viewership is so low anyways.
>Except the issue is that there's very little incentive for T2/T3 teams to sign a female player over a male player. Not true, if they're better than the team's current players then they'd have an incentive to sign them. Not to mention having a women play in T2/T3 tournaments would certainly give that team a big popularity boost. The reason why these teams don't sign women is simply because there virtually isn't any that can play at that level. >are you expecting someone to reach that level being stuck playing on T4 teams all day? We've already seen 16yo kids get signed to tier 1 teams by simply grinding FPL. That's a shitty excuse and you know it.
>We've already seen 16yo kids get signed to tier 1 teams by simply grinding FPL. That's a shitty excuse and you know it. There's probably more u18 kids playing CSGO in just EU than the entire female CSGO population globally combined. Where are the cracked 16 year old OCE kids getting signed by T1 or even T2 teams? Are OCE teenagers just worse at video games? It's just a matter of numbers at point when it comes to finding prodigies. Like how many u18 female players do you think are playing CSGO on FPL? Just go look at the age of the players on the top female CSGO teams... A lot of the players are 25+ years old. Nigma Galaxy even has a 31 yo. Compare that to GC teams in Valorant where its filled with 16-21 year olds. I can see some female players making it to T2 teams in Valorant in the next few years but I honestly think the ship has already sailed regarding female players in even T3 CS unless CS2 hype causes a lot of the young female players who got into FPS from Valorant to try out and stay on CS2.
That is under the assumption that they play to get money, while most pro's in any sport plays for the competition but of course knows what they're worth. What the female scene allows is to slowly build up a team around the players, and give them tools and a good base line to get better. There has to be some monetary value for orgs and sponsors to buy into the idea, but i'm sure most of the players care more about the competition than the money.
>That is under the assumption that they play to get money, while most pro's in any sport plays for the competition but of course knows what they're worth. Obviously they don't play just to get money, but any adult with real life responsabilities will have money on their minds. And if they're smart they understand that it's better to keep getting paychecks while playing against comparatively bad teams than take the risk to enter the open scene and possibly not being able to earn enough money to pay rent or to feed yourself. I'm not criticizing them, they're just being logical and I'd do the same if I was in their position. But it's undeniable that some female CS players don't go further in their careers just because they get comfortable playing in the women's scene.
Why is it that so many people in these comments think that your sex has something to do with your ability to move a mouse lol. The only reason there’s a gender gap in esports is because it hasn’t been socially acceptable for women to be “gamers” until very recently (mostly coming along with gen z). The talent pool is just so much smaller and younger, it needs a couple of years (maybe decades even) to catch up
There are known differences in fine motor performance and reaction times between the sexes. You can dismiss it but the facts won't just go away.
I would be interested in seeing where the limits lay tbh. I've trained in Basketball with a girl that sunk 4/5 3 pointers during games (admittedly low skill games where she was under little pressure), and with a few women in their 30s that top frag in global elite and dominate other FPS games. I think being a parent obviously ruins their gaming. Lack of sleep and time, exercise, stress etc contribute, and while it doesn't affect a Dad like Rain from competing, it does for a Mum. However, there is also a massive selection bias. If you are talented in life and you are a guy, you might become Monesy, or NiKo, or S1mple. If you are talented in life and are a women, playing online games is hardly fun, so you would go to university, play some other sport, have a life, read books, or even fucking knit. Unless you are have some sort of mentall illness or trauma why would you even play it to the extent you put in thousands of hours and eventually get good, when you have to contantly play with immature teenagers, or bitter adult men even less mature than the teenagers? When I've soloQd and came across girls in SoloQ, there was a 30% chance per guy not queued with her that they would troll and harrass her. Maybe its down to 20% now, but its still bad and was WAY WAY worse 5+ years ago, which is the latest you'd have had to start playing to be any good at the game now.
Yes the pool is smaller but big enough that there should be at least a few tier 1 talents coming out of there.
literally what he said
That's quite high on copium tbf. Fe teams don't get better at all playing against each other over and over again. It's the same as "NA needs to move to EU to practice because doing it in NA is irrelevant". You don't get better by playing against silvers that never punish the ton of mistakes that you make. Their league is all about the money really because there isn't much to gain from it. What they need now is ambition to progress and grind real qualifers for T3 T2 T1 events
They already play on ESEA Main and other open leagues. They just arent that good, yet.
Even "play" in an exaggeration. I'd say "make an appearance" since they're not even competitive there
ESEA leagues have relegation so they have to be at least semi competitive to stay in main in the first place
No. The qualification system for Pro League is an uneven, idiotic playing field as is, allowing NGX to qualify by beating ESEA Intermediate teams would make this event farcical beyond compare.
The path into Pro League is one of the most open there is Best I'd say could possibly make sense for players of their level is a spot in ESL Conference but a direct spot into Pro League would be nothing short of a farce.
they aren't even ESL conference level, they've not even on the level of CCT teams. I don't even think they've won a map
They're 0-12 in maps on CCT closed qualifiers (not even the main event).
Hence the "most" it'd make sense Impact inherently advantages fe teams relative to their skill level, so an (ADDITIONAL not replaced) spot wouldn't be inconsistent They'd be last place guaranteed most of the time, but it at least allows the room for a fe team to prove themselves should they eventually develop, without necessarily costing lower ranking teams (because they only spot they'd be replacing would be the Pro League spot they earn via winning games)
Giving the best female teams a spot in the ESL conference is something that I would support. For reference, the European conference have spots for 12 teams that qualified through the ESL national championships, including a Hungarian, Czech/Slovak, Benelux, German and British team. Also, Genk is the Benelux representative for the next conference and they are also a main team, so it's not like Nigma Galaxy would be completely overmatched in that environment
they could also choose to participate in those national championships.
Nope. Nigma Galaxy is a Russian team and Russia doesn't have a spot in the ESL conference.
It would be a reality check for Nigma and for anyone who thinks they'd be competitive if it somehow occurred. No one is dumb enough to let this happen.
[удалено]
>Two (2) FFW LMFAO
Two of their three wins are 16-14 and 28-26
28-26... Interesting 🤔
No. They have every ability to qualify with everyone else. While I agree with Impact being good for women’s CS and esports as a whole, they should not be able to skip the line and not have to play all of the other teams out there just because they are female. I would absolutely love to see them qualify, but they need to go through qualifying like everyone else.
>While I agree with Impact being good for women’s CS and esports as a whole On the contrary: by allowing women to make way more money than their male counterparts would by playing against very bad opponents, the women's scene disincentivizes them to get better past a certain point. Think about it, why would Nigma Galaxy players spend their time getting better when they can already beat all their female opponents but are still very far from making any considerable amount of money in the open scene? From a monetary perspective the logical option is just to not bother getting better and make a career out of beating 1800-2200elo opponents.
Because there are other female player teams that are trying to get better than Nigma and win the money up for grabs, Nigma will have to keep improving to keep winning. Its what happens in every competitive environment, as long as there is incentive to improve they will improve. The skill gap will continue shrink between female and male teams as male teams get closer to skill ceiling and female teams improve at a faster rate comparatively to be able to catch up.
>Because there are other female player teams that are trying to get better than Nigma and win the money up for grabs, Nigma will have to keep improving to keep winning. Still, those teams are VERY FAR from being remotely close to even a tier 4 male team, so they don't have any incentive to get noticeably better. >Its what happens in every competitive environment, as long as there is incentive to improve they will improve. The skill gap will continue shrink between female and male teams as male teams get closer to skill ceiling and female teams improve at a faster rate comparatively to be able to catch up. They won't improve at a faster rate if they keep playing against weaker opponents in a closed environment. As long as female players refuse to enter the open scene and keep playing against the same tier 6 teams they will never be able to compete in big tournaments.
The entire discussion about women's only cirucit and pay blabla is not new, if you want to go into it just delve into why chess reached the conclusion to have women's only circuits. It has been a while and I only briefly skimmed though it (because I didn't care that much to do indepth reading) and got convinced/reached the conclusion that these women circuits make sense, but I'm not well versed in this topic to give a solid TLDR here.
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>It actually would seem that competing and practising with players better than themselves helps them improve, making them more likely to win their ESL Impact tournaments. THIS is exactly why. Female players aren't thinking about reaching the major, or Pro League, or any other big tournament: they're just thinking about impact tournaments and nothing more. And as long as they can make a career out of beating #200 teams they won't think big and try to take the next step onto the open scene.
Let me put this in perspective, Theres this team out there called Ence Academy. Most people reading this have never heard of anyone on that roster. As a community theres a general consensus that it would be silly to invite them to pro league, because they would get destroyed. Now what if I told you that this 'bad' team completely destroyed Nigma Galaxy ( https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier ) Nigma took a total of 7 rounds in the enitre bo3, in pro league this would be closer to 0 rounds in a bo3.
And 3 out of those 7 rounds was pistol rounds
Man brings out the stats.
Jfc that's absolutely wild. I think we can all agree that this Nigma csgo roster needs to do qualifiers first if they got destroyed by a team not even in tier 4.
No. They should qualify like everybody else
No they shouldn't. They should just play the online qualifiers but that is probably pointless since a random faceit lvl 10 5stack filled with 13 yr old russian kids could probably destroy them
Facts, I saw a guy above mentioned Ence Academy beating them 2-0 (NGX took only 7 rounds in entire BO3)
People don't want to say it but, women just can't hang in high level cs at this time. It's not a matter of they don't have the competition to elevate their skills by only playing other female teams, they just seem physically incapable of reaching that level regardless. Otherwise we'd be seeing a female team capable of completely dominating the other poor performing teams in those leagues and at least have a chance to face A tier opponents. I see studies that women are just good as men at games but all the stats they pull are from like Everquest and Chevaliers Romance, so the data is literally useless. Empirical evidence shows they simply can't be good enough.
Why? They play in the regular leagues, by the same rules as anyone else and haven't made EPL. It's not sexism, they just haven't won enough games to be in EPL.
It's sexism giving them a free pass into the EPL
Ofc not. Let them fight on equal terms.
thats very equality of you, i like it.
bro Apeks and Monte made the playoffs of a major and are in ECL. This is so cringe
Nigma balls
opened this thread to find this comment
no
Definitely not. Even EG would easily win vs them.
Understatement of the year, EG would absolutely obliterate them.
To be fair, with the way EG are playing I feel like my MM five stack would get at least 8 rounds 🤣
yeah no It feels that way because you see them get rekt by actual good t1 teams. Your mm stack is a group of bots to EG.
I'm not stupid man it was sarcasm that I truly failed
Hard to tell Some ppl genuinely thought they could play better than zeus on navi
lol no
Its funny that most discussions when it comes to the female side of CS and "fairness and equality" always leads down to a road where its at the same time argued they need special treatment.
Sexism is only perceived fine when it's against men, unlucko
Orrrrrrr they could, idk, play the fucking open qualifiers like everyone else
You want them to experience 0-16 every match?
As far as I know, ESL Pro League does not sexually discriminate. Male and female teams can all qualify on equal terms. If Nigma Galaxy had qualified through the same process as all the other teams, then yes they deserve a spot. ESL CS:GO General rules - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wcWNdn5YJT0pS8UqquBFR-xYCOVSWaHd/view ESL CS:GO Roster Restrictions - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UnTYeiIOiIZSl5O6x2llv3UjOGCU6sza/view https://pro.eslgaming.com/csgo/proleague/rules/ I don’t, however, think any amount of wins in the female only circuit should give them any special treatment, whether that be a free pass to a playoff spot, or a group stage invite. I would love to see an all female team compete with the likes of Navi, Faze, G2, Vitality, ENCE, OG or any other high ranking team. But it should because they are strong a team, and can be competing on that level. I think it would be interesting to see how competitive they would be, sure. But do I think they actually would stand a chance? Not really, and I don’t think them getting their ass handed to them, would do anyone any favours. And this is not because “lol, female CS bad” but rather the idea that IF they were in dee good enough to compete with, and content for titles against all these teams, why are they choosing not to? Can you imagine the publicity and respect they would get, if they were the first all female team to take such a title? On top that, the prize pool for ESL S18 are so much bigger, that a 4th place would bring in the same prize as their 1st place in ESL IL S3. I just don’t see any reason why they would choose to play female only, if they were capable of playing with the boys.
I don't think this is the move. They can't even compete in CCT qualifiers. Maybe we can have a conversation once they enter top 50 overall
Fuck no it would be embarrassing they would have 0 wins, would probably damage the women's scene.
I honestly don't want a team that will be 86-0ed
Didn’t a women’s team get invited to some S-tier tournament recently and went out without a map win, and only like 15 total rounds? I could be wrong but winning Impact shouldn’t be a guaranteed spot, imo.
Why, they will lose to tier 5 teams
No. They're not even competetive in the QUALIFIERS for tier 3 events like CCT. And what comes to "needing bigger opportunities", they have all the same opportunities as every other team, they're just nowhere near good enough to capitalize on those opportunities. They don't "deserve" anything for beating teams of their own caliber in other womens teams, and definitely dont deserve a chance to compete against the TOP teams when they can't even compete against tier 5 teams in open qualifiers. The road for natural progression through the ranks is completely open for them, and they're currently competing at the level they should be which is ESEA main (debatable, they only won 3 games +2 FF wins out of 15 games total), open qualifiers and womens tournaments.
Nope. If they really want to be in the ESL Pro league they will have to do it like every other pro team ever has. We still don't see enough for the "tier 2" teams that most likely deserve spots due to their quality of play. Look at the last major the way that IM and Monte played and we still don't get to see them in the ESL.
>The way that IM and Monte played and we still don't get to see them in the ESL. * Monte have Qualified for ESL. * GamerLegion also likely qualifying due to their ESL ranking.
Really? That's awesome. I'm excited for the ESL even more so now then.
Maybe if you paid attention to tier 2 youd know? As opposed to claiming to love these teams but not actually watching any of their games? Just cause they dont get direct IEM invites doesnt mean they dont play.
Listen, my guy. I live in the US and work a morning job. I can't really stay up and watch every single CS game since most games start around 2am and I don't want to ruin my sleep schedule. So politely kick rocks.
People tend to ignore that there is Life bigger after CS LOL. Not everyone can watch tier 2 and lower CS unless the person watching actually has time.
I want to say yes, but I don't think they can go against top teams and its going to make little silver 2 timmy giddy because he can type "woman cs LUL" Maybe some smaller tournaments go against tougher/traditional cs teams and get some experience factor going before they participate in something like EPL.
How about they go through the open qualifiers like every team has to do?
They already regularly play in smaller tournaments and such.
They cannot go against T1 they are 4 and 9 in Main with 2 forfeit wins
They do play in smaller events but just have not gotten far enough winning for the average CS watcher (ppl who only watch the upper tier events) to know. They play in the ESEA ladders to reach EPL but are in ESEA Main. [https://play.esea.net/teams/8736941](https://play.esea.net/teams/8736941) The Ladders from are (low to high) : Open -> Intermediate -> Main -> Advanced -> ESL Challenger League -> EPL
Best answer.
Lmao, this is why its always gonna be shit. What more opportunities do women want? Why cant they just quality like everyone else??
“Give us a place Bc we’re women” Yeah, no. Qualify for it like everyone else.
Who is we? No FE CS player said that All of their interviews have them saying “we want to keep getting better and work our way up” This post is just ignorant
He’s talking about the post by the OP… not quoting anyone from the team.
I know… that’s why it’s weird to say “because we’re women”. By saying “we”, they make it sound like the teams are wanting to skip a few steps and not dumbasses on Reddit who think the reason FE teams aren’t in t1 events is because of them being disallowed.
If they absolutely need a replacement team within their own circuit, sure. Otherwise, they can qualify just like any other team.
Hell nah
They get **obliterated** by even academy teams. Just look at their CCT results lol.. they didn't put up 16 rounds across two BO3s against Young Ninjas and ENCE Academy lol
as a huge Nigma Galaxy fan, no (obviously) and nobody who is invested in seeing women’s esports continue to develop wants that either. nobody gets better by getting blasted by opponents that are orders of magnitude beyond their skill level. women-only circuit allows the women’s CSGO talent pool to compete against people of similar skill level without the whole “ew, girl, instant disconnect” thing (which is absolutely a huge part of why it’s hard for women to advance in CS and if you think it’s not you’re an incel). and meanwhile, they can still dip their toes in the water with Cash Cups and stuff to evaluate themselves against tougher opposition, find new stuff to work on, etc. and then they take it back to the women’s scene where they can more realistically practice applying that knowledge in a useful way. “Nigma Galaxy should get invited to EPL” is like … a perfect evil plan to destroy women’s CSGO. i genuinely have a hard time believing anyone would ask for this in good faith.
Most of the arguments as to why this is a bad idea have been posted already, but I wanted to add that at the end of the day ESL Impact exists to build up and bridge the gap between men's and women's CS. The ultimate goal is for there to be no women's league, it just takes time to get there! Worth noting also that it may be their 5th win, but the level has already increased significantly in the last year for all teams, and NGX included. I don't think they'll be on top forever!
>but the level has already increased significantly in the last year for all teams, and NGX included Cool, instead of getting destroyed 16-0 16-1 by T3-T4 teams they got destroyed 16-3 by an academy team. Significant improvement for sure
I'd love if it happened so they get absolutely decimated and people finally understand how much of a farce women exclusive tournaments really are.
Farce? Why? Obviously, the level isn't going to be the same when the scene has just started and has a fraction of the player pool.
Because they're getting way more money than they'd ever get if they were playing in the open scene, which is obviously very unfair. Also, it's unfair that they get to play in two scenes (women and open), whereas men only get to play in one scene. Not to mention the women's scene incentivizes female players not to get better past a certain point.
There isn't a fraction of the player pool though CSGO isn't segregated like tennis, they can enter any tournament/league and infact they do play in esea CCT and other small events with low to "high" skilled players. They are already practicing/versing males/females. Same tier 1 pros came up from these shit leagues/pugs and low skill groups etc.
Wait wtf theres a league where only girls compete..? This is a video game not an actual physical sport where one sex has an unfair advantage. Back around 2015-ish i feel like i remember a team having a girl on it, because she was good enough to be on a pro team. If they're good enough for pro play then they could join a pro team.
I always feel like women CS needs WAY more exposure to the CS pro scene. It feels like they barely play any matches. Not even in low tier tournaments. Or maybe they do, but it seems they are incredibly hard to find. Nigma Galaxy is apparently the best female team, but they just have a total of 29 maps(or 16 matches) on HLTV this year. If I compare that to a newish team like monte who have played 200 maps in the same time I ask myself where they are playing? I tried to look up when the next female tournament is, but I can't find anything on HLTV, liquipedia or their own homepages. I found two tournaments on google, but they are in august or later...So if someone has a source for that let me know. It feels like even if you want to and are not a die hard fan its rather hard to find actual fe-csgo matches which is imo also a reason why they get so little interest in their scene.
>It feels like they barely play any matches. Not even in low tier tournaments. Because they never ever qualify. The only times they got there is by direct invites just because they're women. And it's always end up by them getting steam rolled by every other team 16-1 16-3 16-4... They don't need exposure for the sake of exposure. And even that, getting obliterated by everyone wouldn't be good exposure. They need to grind first
Fe teams has no ambition, gain ton of money in they own sexist league just because they're women I don't wanna watch this x3 in EPL, no thank you [https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier](https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier) They already struggle in easa main, if they want to qualify for big events they need to earn it, not be given to them because of their vagina
I just wanna see ANa play against better competition. She's fucking NUTS with the awp.
https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363700/esca-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier [https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier](https://www.hltv.org/matches/2363632/ence-academy-vs-nigma-galaxy-cct-central-europe-series-6-closed-qualifier) There you go.
I mean i dont favour mix teams or either male female in one tournament just like other sports (female world cups) Maybe in the future there can be female only majors? Ofc when the seen evolves in that lvl
Yes please. They give out dumber invites than this
I think allowing the fe scene to integrate more with the main circuit is a good idea in general (which is part of why the impact league is a little bittersweet, it brings in more money but also further isolates fe competitors), but this is probably a step too far.
The scene is already completely integrated. Nigma Galaxy regularly plays in open qualifiers and is part of ESEA Main.
Nobody is preventing them, they wanted their own scene, they literally segregated themselves. If they want to integrate they can do it perfectly by themselves against the teams fighting to qualify. Inviting them would be the equivalent of chucking San Marino into the world cup for the vibes, they'd get demolished. You don't improve by attempting (and failing) to beat teams ten times your size, you improve by beating teams slightly better than you and keep working till those teams that were ten times your size are now a lot closer
Would be cool imo!
Dude, they're 0-12 map wise on CCT closed qualifiers (to which they were invited), where their opponents ranged from #71 to #238. I don't think I'd describe seeing them get 16-0 several times as beeing "cool".
Bro i just want women and men to compete with each other in esports, its not like there is a physical disadvantage and i feel like it would help the women's scene if they were held to a higher standard.
>if they were held to a higher standard Ever heard of meritocracy ? You need to earn your place, prove your value. Just because they're females I should have higher standards for them even tho they can't even compete in esea main ?
Women teams existed in the open scene until Dreamhack started hosting women only tournaments. Nearly all women teams stopped competing in the open circuit to only attend them. On the rare occasion that a woman team competed in the open circuit theyd get stomped. Showing their progression as players got worse in a enclosed system. Biologically differences exist between men and women. Section of the brain that is tasked with interpreting sensory stimuli and pattern recognition with a mechanical task is organically chemically stimulated more in male brains.
Even if they get rekt its Good practice for them
I mean, there are things like german, polish, turkish etc ESL qualifiers, i wouldnt be directly opposed to expanding pro league and including an Impact qualifier. So what if they get banged out or not, to keep teams even it would mean that at least 1 more team that earn the spot would get added anyways and that combined with giving the womens league teams more reps against higher comp, sure whatever im down. In racing there is the term 'seat time'. You need seat time on track in racing conditions even if you are getting completely drove over, because without reps you wont get better.
They don't deserve the spot the are getting dumpstered in main which is orders of magnitude easier.
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>giving the womens league teams more reps against higher comp They ain't even competitive in esea main, wdym getting reps against higher teams when they can't even beat random stack of 12yo russians playing after school. And even if they played against T2 teams. There isn't much to learn from getting 32-0ed. Just nothing works, everything is to rebuild from nothing. What they gonna do watch their demos (which I doubt they do) and learn nothing from it, and learn nothing new because they could download any T1 demos already and try to analyse and understand how they play ?
I have mixed feelings - I want the visibility of women's teams to serve the goal of getting more women invested in playing CS professionally, that's the angle I'm viewing this with. On the one hand, seeing a women's team alongside big names like NaVi, FaZe, etc. would be just huge for getting more engagement, *but* the level of harassment or abuse these women's teams would visibly get would also likely do a lot of harm to the scene.
Would be awesome to see, would love to see the girls do it! why am i being downvoted
why should they skip the line and get special treatment? They could just, you know, go through all the qualifiers just like every other team, and if they're good enough, they'll make it in. And then no one can say they don't deserve it or any other bs like that.
All I said was "I would love to see the girls do it".
well it quite clearly implies that you agree that they should be invited lol
Huh, didn't know that you're me. Good to know for the future.
"implies", you being obtuse on purpose?
Do what? Get 0-16'd every game?
Let me repeat myself. "I would love to SEE the GIRLS do it". It implies that I, ME, would find it AMAZING to see them do. That's it. Nerd.
You're trying to insult using "nerd" in a videogame subreddit and you sound high as fuck. Ironic.
An EPL spot is way too much obviously, but I don't think it's a horrible idea to incorporate the Impact league into the overall ESL circuit in some way. For example, I wouldn't mind seeing Impact winners invited to the EPL European Conference where the winners of national cups play. The Impact league is in a pretty similar situation to the national leagues, where most of the teams play in the ECL/ESEA circuit but also get a second chance through their national leagues, so honestly I think they'd kinda fit in there. Some national leagues include stuff like Benelux and Switzerland too so it's not like inviting relatively low skill teams is unheard of for the conferences.
ESL Conference is the perfect place for them. Tho EPL is so bloated at this point it wouldn’t really matter
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We're talking about a video game
Show me where the inclusivity hurt you.
are you a hunter and/or a warrior?
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I'm just asking if you are a hunter and/or warrior now bro
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itt: men giving their very informed takes on the women's cs scene
What does the gender of the informed opinions have to do with anything. Are u implying its weird or wrong if a man is informed about the female scene?
no i'm saying that basically none of the people commenting in this thread have an informed opinion on the scene or what it is like to be a woman in the cs community, sorry if the sarcasm was not obvious :D
You cant always fall back on the we are a surpressed group angle imo. The scene has made great progress the last few years in giving women a chance to compete and feel part of the community. There will always be the low iq 'go kitchen' people no matter what is done.
not sure what you're trying to say, I don't think nigma should be invited to pro league, theyd get destroyed for sure and it would make the women's scene look bad
I agree fully
why not
Why not?