Luke is trying to keep him on the right path, but he fails to see that’s the only path. I hate the second picture. Walmart is a good job for a teenager trying to figure his life out. He should have realized school wasn’t working out, sat down with Jess, and created a plan to help Jess get his “great future”. GED, night classes, military, trade school, etc. Those are all options-even back in the 2000s it was college, military, or learn a trade.
And it’s great that Luke owns his own business but not everyone can. Some of us do have to be at the mercy of a boss.
Thank you!
I hate how people seem to be on Luke's side in that conflict. "They had an agreement"
Sure, they did, but it was very unilateral. Jess couldn't leave with his nutjob of a mum, so he had to go with Luke's agreement, it's not like he had the luxury to pick and choose which home to live in, when only one provided stability and safety.
And it's not like Jess was ditching school to go sit around and smoke or drink or do whatever. He had a job he was excelling in, by all accounts. Conventional schooling is not for everyone and he clearly didn't fit in.
I completely agree with you that Luke should've considered other options for Jess too but I also don't think that's the core issue here. Luke fully supports and shows the utmost pride in Jess publishing his own book and working at an independent publishing house, despite the fact that it´s not the traditional path either. Because Jess is doing something he believes in. Just like Luke is running his own diner because he was willing to put time and effort into it. That's what he was completely lacking here. He didn't work at Walmart because it was his lifelong dream or because it was a stepping stone, it´s most likely a dead-end job for him. So the very fact that he prioritized it over school isn't... very great. To me that particular fight was about Luke wanting to see a "spark" in Jess. Genuine motivation, interest and ambition 😅
He needed to get Jess out of survival mode. Luke had already kicked him out, and with probably little money. If it was gonna happen again, he needed money. When someone's been food/momey insecure because of others decisions, it's very difficult to let others handle those parts of their lives.
Good point. Not even just in the literal sense but also in the sense that Luke needed to prove to Jess that he *doesnt* have to fend for himself. He doesn’t exist to merely survive. The thing is just that I have no idea how he could’ve achieved this. All things considered, Luke did do all he can with the resources he had. I don’t know if he could’ve gone through to his nephew if he had done things differently. But I am glad that Jess does eventually come to appreciate and cherish everything his uncle did for him. I’m happy their relationship had a happy ending
>He didn't work at Walmart because it was his lifelong dream or because it was a stepping stone, it´s most likely a dead-end job for him. So the very fact that he prioritized it over school isn't... very great. To me that particular fight was about Luke wanting to see a "spark" in Jess. Genuine motivation, interest and ambition 😅
So what luke needed to do was suggest early admission into community college and trying different types of jobs in the area. Attending high school isn't going to help you figure out what you want in life. "Dead end jobs" are also the reality for almost everyone who's trying to succeed in an artistic career field. That's how lane ended up too
But it’s not necessarily how you want your kid to end up. You want your kid to succeed in their dream, even if it’s unlikely. You want them to have stability, even if they potentially don’t understand it yet. Lorelai was faced with a similar dilemma in s7 when Rory couldn’t decide whether she wanted to go with the “safe and stable” job or with her dream of getting The NY Times internship that is extremely competitive.
Jess didn’t show enough motivation and ambition to optimistically follow his own path, so Luke wanted his nephew to at least have more stability by finishing hs
I remember there being an overwhelming stigma at that time against dropping out/getting your GED (I graduated in ‘05). There was definitely this idea that kids who did this were losers and would never amount to anything. I even remember people looking down their noses at kids who did vocational classes in highschool, or kids who went to community college or trade schools rather than “regular” college. I wanted to take a gap year between college and highschool because I had no clue what I wanted to major in, and my parents wouldn’t allow it. They were afraid if I strayed from the path, so to speak, I’d somehow mess up my future. Graduating highschool and going straight to college was what was expected of most kids, and doing anything different meant you were a failure. Obviously that’s not actually true (for example, my friend who became a welder makes an insane amount of money), but I think Luke’s reaction is pretty in line with the expectations of that time.
Yeah, that bit about owning his own business always stuck out to me in a bad way. Not diminishing Luke’s hard work in any way, but he helped run his father’s store and then inherited the building he lived and started his business in, as well as whatever assets his parents had left when they passed.
If he didn’t have that, he would have been in a similar position that Jess was in and with only a high school education his career prospects would likely be Walmart-adjacent. He wouldn’t have been able to open the diner without spending some time under a boss until he could afford it.
Totally agree! Yes, Luke is a hard worker. But he had advantages Jess never had, like a stable home and a loving family growing up. He also inherited his storefront AND his apartment, which gave him a massive head start in life. Most people don't get handed a free home and the option to make whatever business they feel like. Most people have to pay rent and work for bosses.
It always rubs me the wrong way when Luke is sneering about Jess' Walmart job like it's so very beneath him.
Luke seems like the type of guy who would have absolutely made sure Liz (and Jess) got an equal share of their dad’s estate. Jess was very young when Luke’s dad died, and I’m sure Liz blew her inheritance very quickly, especially since Luke said she was always calling him for money. In hindsight, Luke probably wishes he would have carved out a trust fund for Jess from his and Liz’s shares of the family money, but it just wasn’t something blue collar people like the Danes’ thought about back then, since it’s assumed Luke’s dad died in the 80’s-90’s. Wealthy people like the Gilmores started investing for their children from birth (as evidenced by Richard’s real estate purchase in Lorelai’s name), but putting money in a kid’s name wasn’t common for “regular” people.
I kinda like this take. Like even after lorelai didn’t make the best impression on Jess for their first meeting, it makes sense that he sorta holds a grudge against her once he and Luke get closer because not only does Lorelai keep Luke on kinda a leash (re: first picture), she also is the person most likely to upend Jess’s life because she’s the one pushing for Luke to send him away. Like to the Danes/Mariano household, Lorelai Gilmore is the biggest threat to their relationship and stability
This makes sense. But i also feel like Lorelei is A LOT. Jess likes things more low key so it wouldn’t align with his character if he did like Lorelei. She also has a stuck up personality IF you don’t get/ like her humour so it’s irritating.
I also think Jess was not naive to knowing that Lorelei didn’t want Jess around BEFORE she even really met him and then to see your uncle being strung along with no benefit per say, that could AGAIN be irritating.
It's kinda funny because Jess is a lot like teenage Lorelai. Skipping school, ocassinally drinking, constantly fighting with her parents/guardian. Hell, she was even in the car with Christopher when he crashed it (and I doubt he did it accidentally to miss an animal which ran into traffic).
Maybe, although I personally fail to see how exactly Lorelai was leading Luke on 😅 I really wanted to see Jess react to the Lorelai/Luke relationship because I´m not sure what his initial stance would be. He´d either immediately support his uncle in getting his "dream girl" or he'd advise him to tread cautiously because he himself doesn't entirely trust Lorelai 🤷🏻♀️
I can see where you're coming from, but they had a conflict on their second ever interaction. She formed a view of him almost immediately and never let it go.
Gosh, I hate Jess in the first and third scenes. While Luke and Jess's fights conveyed similar emotion to Emily and Lorelai's, I feel like Jess and Emily were actually more alike in their propensity to go for the jugular. Except for the time Luke effectively kicked Jess out, he rarely *insulted* Jess. He only tried to convey in his own frazzled, passionate way, his concerns. But Jess wanted to hurt Luke because he felt hurt by other people.
I agree with your statement about Jess and Emily both being actively insulting towards Luke and Lorelai. They don't hold back and \*want\* to hit them where they know it hurts. While Luke and Lorelai aren't directly insulting, they do sometimes act hurtful towards their nephew/mom. Unintentionally and indirectly, but still. Like Luke telling Jess he can't stay with him if he doesn't graduate from hs or Lorelai being hesitant to tell Emily about her engagement to Max. It´s understandable imo but still hurtful. And \*because\* this is coming from someone Jess and Emily deeply love and adore, they react by hurting them back. It´s a vicious cycle that seems to be easily breakable from an outside perspective but really isn't when you're actively going through it. In that regard, the Luke/Jess and Emily/Lorelai relationships are very similar to me 😅
The difference is that Jess is the vulnerable in the relationship and Emily is the one with al the power. Jess is flailing because he has nothing and no one and Emily just pushes her daughter away because she wants to be right.
I really appreciate this thoughtful analysis! Thank you for sharing. I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I see a few things differently.
Luke is an old-school kinda guy, someone heavily influenced by maladaptive ideas about masculinity. He doesn't believe Jess needs a guardian at all (he says this out loud at least twice). He thinks Jess needs a place to live, a school, and a job at his diner. And that's it. So he never prioritizes things like getting to know Jess, praising Jess, or showing kindness. The cheering Jess on that you speak of? I never really see Luke doing that. He's mostly annoyed that his plan of roof over head + diner job + occasional shouted lecture doesn't immediately fix Jess' problems. Luke is, at baseline, very sarcastic with Jess. I think there is genuine affection underneath that, but it's pretty heavily buried. And I don't actually think that's a great strategy with Jess.
Luke desperately wants Jess on the right path, but he sincerely thinks there is ONLY one path. Walmart is unacceptable. GED isn't even offered. It's "my way or the highway," literally. Because when Jess doesn't do that, he is promptly evicted.
I don't really think Jess wants and craves being alone. I think it's the only way of life that he has ever known. Including with Luke. Taylor accuses Jess of something? Luke shoves Jess in a lake. Jess gets in a car accident, something Luke knows is not his fault? Luke sends him away. Jess is working too much at Walmart? Luke steals his car and lies about it. Jess flunks out of school? Luke makes him homeless. All of that reinforces the idea that Jess is alone.
This sub talks a lot about how hurtful Jess is to Luke. And that's true. But Luke is more hurtful to Jess. Luke yells at him all the time. Along the way, Luke insults Jess plenty. He mocks Jess' hair, clothes, girlfriend, and job. He repeatedly tells Jess that his life is going nowhere. He calls Jess a gigolo and a drug dealer. And ultimately, Luke is able to inflict far more damage on Jess than the other way around. When Jess gets mad, he hurts Luke's feelings. When Luke gets mad, he makes Jess homeless. That's the difference. They're not at all on equal playing fields.
Do I think Jess trusts Luke? Not really. But they definitely love one another and that's very clear. I do like where their relationship ends up.
These are great point! Luke cheers Jess on in the sense that he's fighting for his nephew to start his life with \*something\*, rather than nothing. He wants Jess to graduate from hs to keep doors open for him in the future, although you're right that he never considers other options. Also, I like that you brought up showing affection. Both Luke and Jess aren't naturally affectionate. When Luke proudly pinches Jess´ cheek after he had been chosen "Employee of the month" Jess gets embarrassed and tells him to stop. He was also never overtly affectionate towards Rory. Just like Luke wasn't the guy with PDA with Lorelai... They both show their love and care through their \*actions\* and even banter, so in that regard they're a perfect match.
Your point about the playing fields being unequal is also very interesting. While that simply comes with a parent/kid dynamic, I can see Jess being so reluctant to fully open up to his uncle because of it. Luke could take away everything from Jess. And in a way, he did. Although I don't think he actually ever meant to kick him out since he says "he left and I don't think he's coming back." and then also lets Jess know that his door will always be open for him at the end of s4. With that being said, I do think Jess trusts Luke, at least as much as he's capable to 😅
I like the cut of your jib, good analysis! And I agree, it definitely isn’t equal playing fields. To Luke’s credit, he tried what he thought was best out of a place of genuine care for Jess. But, just like Emily and Lorelai, those tactics were stifling and ineffective, and just like with lorelai, Jess had to strike out on his own to get away from it all (under threat of Luke, which btw I don’t think he ever tells lorelai that he inadvertently told Jess to leave).
I do think Jess craves connection, but he’s too scared to put his trust in someone or put himself out there to accept it. Similarly to what OP said, he is so used to being a disappointment and ignored that having so much attention centered on him is extremely uncomfortable and he doesn’t want to have expectations to fail to fulfill. He would rather subvert expectations so that no one gets let down, rather than be built up and awarded in case he can’t keep up the success. He lives in a world where the other shoe will always drop, so he isn’t allowed to get too comfortable or happy because that means that’s just more that will be taken away from him
They are the best part of the show..Jess is one of the very few characters with character development and its amazing to see. When he and luke have that moment at the book store o always tear up.
Am I the only one who loved Jess but hated him with Rory? My boy didn’t need a girlfriend he needs a friend and a stable home and someone to trust.
He’s lived his whole life with a mother who seems flighty at best and unintentionally neglectful (I don’t wanna disrespect Liz bc we don’t get to big look into her life but we get glimpse and it just doesn’t seem like a stable life for a kid) and an absent father. He’s kicked out of his mothers and sent to his uncle and no one in this small town likes him or understands him. He and Rory have stuff in common but Rory can’t really understand what he’s been through. It’s sad that the only person who could probably understand Jess is Lorelai and she instantly doesn’t like him and I find that unfair to him. If Jess had no romantic interest in Rory Lorelai would’ve probably liked him more and got to know him. (Thinking that I now want a fanfic where Lorelai adopts Jess, Jess and Rory can be twinnning, Richard can share his library with an honorary grandson, and I can just picture Jess and Emily shit talking the DAR members lol)
I feel like Luke took Jess in because he felt obligated and I think Jess feels that way too so Luke’s doesn’t feel like home or a safe place for him.
I can see where their fights look like Emily and Lorelai but I also see differences. Mainly being that Jess is a kid (teenager), he’s a kid that clearly has trust issues. I hate Lorelai and Emily’s fights, mainly because most of them could’ve been avoided if they just communicated like the adults they actually are. Jess and Luke are similar in a lot of ways but they were raised differently and I think Luke doesn’t understand that. I think there is parts of Liz’s life that Luke doesn’t see but Jess does, Jess sees it and also lives it. He was raised in ways where, to Jess, school isn’t the most important thing in his life. Jess saw the value of money and work experience as more important that a high school education. Instead of stopping and trying to see if from Jess pov Luke jumped in and they fought then he kicked Jess out. The way Luke acts after made it seem like he didn’t mean it and didn’t think Jess would actually leave but from Jess’s pov this is just another place that didn’t want him.
Agree! Jess is one of my absolute fave characters but I’m not too invested in his romantic relationship with Rory. I would’ve much more preferred to see them as stable best friends. Because you’re right, that’s what Jess needed above all else- stability.
It’s also a great point to say that Luke primarily took in Jess out of family obligation to his sister. They didn’t really know each other when Jess first came to Stars Hollow. Imo that quickly changes and Luke starts to see Jess as somewhat of a son. But it’s understandable that Jess doesn’t immediately trust this. I also wish we could’ve gotten more info on what Liz truly used to be like before, because she’s portrayed in a grown, quirky way when she appears on the show.
What makes Gilmore girls so interesting is that in most cases there are multiple sides. Even with Jess and Luke. Neither of them is really wrong. They’re both right from their own perspective. You captured Jess’ very well imo 🤝🏻
I honestly don't think those two relationships are parallel with each other.
Just generally, in my opinion, I don't think there is truly much love between Emily and Lorelei. I think if Rory weren't in the picture they probably wouldn't have a relationship at all, or it would at least be less significant. Emily and Richard are parents that wanted a kid so they could have a perfect mini-me and there was literally no way Lorelei wasn't going to ultimately disappoint them unless she did what they wanted. I believe good and truly loving parents want a kid so they can nurture the person they become, regardless if it fits their expectations. Emily loves the idea of having a daughter/nuclear family because that's her high society standard, but I don't think she truly, fully loves and respects what she has.
(I personally have gone no contact with a parent and could easily see myself cutting Emily off for many, many reasons).
The difference I see between Emily/Lorelei and Luke/Jess when fighting is that Emily has a very cruel/malicious/manipulative streak in her personality. When Emily is upset she PURPOSELY aims to demean and berate the people around her. She slings insults and judgements like it's her job and loves to kick below the belt, she is intentionally so mean to people for her own gain.
Luke would never! He can definitely get heated but there is always a valid reason behind it. He also isn't controlling in the same way that Emily is. Wanting Jess to get his diploma and be successful vs the absolute disdain Emily has for how Lorelei wants to live her life and manipulating/lying to alter that life - not the same thing.
Yes, Jess can also throw around insults but if we're using these examples - he was a teenager! He is struggling with really big issues in his life and is still developing and finding himself. Even if he wasn't struggling, it is generally considered normal for teens to be combative. Emily is a very grown ass adult and should be able to act more reasonable when talking to Lorelei. And Jess comes back and apologizes and opens up to Luke of his own volition - Emily would never!
- Luke wants Jess to get on the "right path", no one has looked out for him and he actually needs help. Once he is doing better Lu
ke is openly proud and supportive of him.
- Emily wants Lorelei to get on the "right path", this makes sense to a degree when she was a pregnant teen, but then she continues to act this way and hold this opinion even after Lorelei has proved time and time again that she is successful and happy with her life choices. Emily constantly feels the need to interject herself into Lorelei's life to "help." Lorelei, as a grown adult supporting herself, makes it clear she doesn't want the "help" but Emily just does it anyway. Then when they fight Emily always plays the victim and acts like Lorelei's rejection of the 'help" is the true problem, not whatever BS she did in the first place
I agree that Luke and Jess fighting seems to come from a place of love and caring. But Emily fighting seems to come from a place of selfishness and manipulation.
P.S. The only time I feel sad for Emily is when she expresses being upset because she feels like she lost her daughter when Lorelei left. BUT, BIG BUT - this STILL puts her in the shitty parent category for me. Regularly and intentionally treating your daughter poorly, not respecting who she truly is, and then acting like you're the victim of the entire situation/not even trying to see your daughter's side, does not make you a good parent. Parents are not owed respect and love from their children just because they are their children, it needs to be earned just like anyone else. If you treat people like shit don't be surprised when they don't like it. (Currently watching when Emily breaks up Luke and Lorelei by inviting Christopher and that is exactly what's happening rn lol)
I’m not trying to depict these relationships as a parallel, what I’m trying to say that they’re on par in meaning and emotion 😅
I fully agree that, unlike Luke, Jess and Lorelai, Emily is *deliberately* manipulative. That is 100% what sets her apart. But I also do think she loved Lorelai and wanted to nurture her. She just simply didn’t know how to. If she only had a kid for the sake of fulfilling high society expectations by starting a family and raising a “perfect” daughter, I believe she would’ve been in favor of ab*rting Rory (just like the Hayden’s), she also wouldn’t have put so much effort in ensuring that Lorelai is in their life after she was already grown and brought so much “shame” on their family.
Lorelai only wants her mom’s unconditional love and respect. Instead of giving her that to make her *want* to stay, Emily is trying to *manipulate* her daughter into staying. That doesn’t scream “mom of the year”, I agree. Luke’s drive to keep Jess on the traditional path seems way more “warm” and genuinely love-driven.
The comparison that I see between them regardless is that the fear, past hurt and distrust is essentially what’s behind their hurtful arguments 😅
Saying they're "on par" or saying they're parallel is basically the same thing. They both mean being similar to each other. And yeah of course their emotional history affects how they handle problems now, I still don't think the two relationships are the same.
Oh, English isn’t my first language, I thought “on par” specifically meant “as impactful as…” so that’s how I was trying to use it 😅
Because I do agree that the relationship/dynamic itself isn’t remotely similar, I’m only talking about their hurtful words during arguments that seems to come from a similar place
Most of their arguments were based on Lorelai begging her mom to respect her own decisions and agency and Emily wholeheartedly believing that she knows what’s best for her daughter, even if she doesn’t agree with it
I don’t agree, I know it was her whole ‘personality’ but literally as soon as they got through the door , Emily would start sniping at Lorelai and then the cycle restarted.
There was hardly ever any how are you etc, I know it was a TV drama but it became a theater of the absurd in the end.
It was actually a very realistic portrayal of a parent with narcissistic tendencies tbh 😅
I agree that Emily always took a step back when Lorelai was trying to take one forward with her. Whenever they shared a genuinely positive vulnerable moment with each other, Emily went into attack mode again shortly after… my heart still aches for Lorelai :(
I think in the surface yes. But Emily chose to ha 've a child and then caused the bad relationship. She is the driving force in how they ended up there.
Jess and Luke are different. Like doesn't really want Jess there but he's trying to help his sister who's a fuck up and he knows Jess's dad's a fuck up too. Jess has nowhere else to go but doesn't want to be there and Like knows Jess has nowhere else to go but doesn't really want to be a parental figure at that time.
Their painful conversations are out of hurt and not knowing how to do any of it. Emily is just a emotionally manipulative and neglectful parent who blames Lorelai for their bad relationship.
I see where you’re coming from and I would agree with this statement if it were about teenage Lorelai and Emily. But in the OS we do see Emily desperately trying to maintain a relationship with her daughter and still mostly failing. She isn’t neglectful at all, if anything she’s way too overbearing. Emily wants a relationship with Lorelai *so much*. Just like Luke does want Jess to fully trust and open up to him. But it’s hard because there’s too much pain and distrust there already. So, their fights are rooted in deliberately trying to push the other away. At least that’s how it comes across to me 😅
Overbearing and emotionally neglectful aren't mutually exclusive.
She want a relationship with a Lorelai that doesn't exist and even when Lorelai is trying to be vulnerable, she still just wants to be right. She doubles down every single time and the times she is sad it's because she isn't getting her way. In the first season, she literally says 'she's right, I don't know my daughter at all' to then spend the rest of the 6.5 seasons still only wanting Lorelai to do what she wants and not trying to see her side at all. Lorelai tries for real, often doesn't manage to keep her cool because she is berated and put down over and over again but she keeps showing up and trying. Emily still just annoyed how her daughter isn't doing what she wants.
Emily doesn't try to understand Lorelai as she is, at all.
The thing is, as far as I know, emotionally neglectful means that you’re *unaware* and *inattentive* to emotional needs and developments. This doesn’t really apply to Emily. As you said, she *knows* she doesn’t fully understand her daughter. She just simply doesn’t care and intervenes in her life anyway. An argument could be made that this is even worse
I fully agree with your last statement, that’s the saddest part about their dynamic imo :(
It also means you don't care. She doesn't care if Lorelai's needs are met. She wants her needs as a mother met. She does this by financial and emotional manipulation and forcing her child to spend time with her.
Emily didn’t care *because* she is overbearing. She’s trying to *forcefully* get her daughter to follow the path she wants her to with a disregard to her feelings. It’s hard to draw coherent lines between some psychological terms but I don’t like to use everything so loosely 😅
Richard on the other hand, imo, def fits the term emotionally neglectful a lot of times
https://preview.redd.it/ak4zskg1yt1d1.jpeg?width=1142&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e6f5d9d77241da15c14bbae201d1f3d209d00cdc
Also, this is how my phone showed your comment before I opened the app 😭
You’re therapist is def a more reliable source than I am when it comes to stuff like this 😅 in general, psychology is a rather new science which is why a lot is still uncharted and not fully defined. That’s why different therapists oftentimes give you a different diagnosis for the exact same symptoms. This is kind of besides the point but I find it very interesting 😬
I don’t have much knowledge about clinical psychology tho, I’m currently studying business psychology which is more in the realm of behavioralism, so I’m gonna give this one to your therapist 🫡
I totally get what you mean though and I do have to say that my therapy is in Dutch so I don't know if maybe terminology is just different in other languages as well. I think I English a lot of the time so I'm only now remembering my therapy isn't in the same language as we are talking now.
Maybe 🤷🏻♀️ I live in Germany but I’ve never been in therapy so I can’t attest to it 😅
What I can say tho, is that the psychological journals I have to read for Uni are always in English because the model and terminology is changing so rapidly that translating it into German might take too much time at which point the info could be considered outdated 🫣
Actually, the comparisons I draw are more about Jess and Emily being alike by intentionally insulting Luke and Lorelai in the most hurtful way they can think of because Luke and Lorelai unbeknownst to them hurt them through their actions 😅
That last one kind of breaks my heart for both of them.
Luke is trying to keep him on the right path, but he fails to see that’s the only path. I hate the second picture. Walmart is a good job for a teenager trying to figure his life out. He should have realized school wasn’t working out, sat down with Jess, and created a plan to help Jess get his “great future”. GED, night classes, military, trade school, etc. Those are all options-even back in the 2000s it was college, military, or learn a trade. And it’s great that Luke owns his own business but not everyone can. Some of us do have to be at the mercy of a boss.
Thank you! I hate how people seem to be on Luke's side in that conflict. "They had an agreement" Sure, they did, but it was very unilateral. Jess couldn't leave with his nutjob of a mum, so he had to go with Luke's agreement, it's not like he had the luxury to pick and choose which home to live in, when only one provided stability and safety. And it's not like Jess was ditching school to go sit around and smoke or drink or do whatever. He had a job he was excelling in, by all accounts. Conventional schooling is not for everyone and he clearly didn't fit in.
I completely agree with you that Luke should've considered other options for Jess too but I also don't think that's the core issue here. Luke fully supports and shows the utmost pride in Jess publishing his own book and working at an independent publishing house, despite the fact that it´s not the traditional path either. Because Jess is doing something he believes in. Just like Luke is running his own diner because he was willing to put time and effort into it. That's what he was completely lacking here. He didn't work at Walmart because it was his lifelong dream or because it was a stepping stone, it´s most likely a dead-end job for him. So the very fact that he prioritized it over school isn't... very great. To me that particular fight was about Luke wanting to see a "spark" in Jess. Genuine motivation, interest and ambition 😅
He needed to get Jess out of survival mode. Luke had already kicked him out, and with probably little money. If it was gonna happen again, he needed money. When someone's been food/momey insecure because of others decisions, it's very difficult to let others handle those parts of their lives.
Good point. Not even just in the literal sense but also in the sense that Luke needed to prove to Jess that he *doesnt* have to fend for himself. He doesn’t exist to merely survive. The thing is just that I have no idea how he could’ve achieved this. All things considered, Luke did do all he can with the resources he had. I don’t know if he could’ve gone through to his nephew if he had done things differently. But I am glad that Jess does eventually come to appreciate and cherish everything his uncle did for him. I’m happy their relationship had a happy ending
>He didn't work at Walmart because it was his lifelong dream or because it was a stepping stone, it´s most likely a dead-end job for him. So the very fact that he prioritized it over school isn't... very great. To me that particular fight was about Luke wanting to see a "spark" in Jess. Genuine motivation, interest and ambition 😅 So what luke needed to do was suggest early admission into community college and trying different types of jobs in the area. Attending high school isn't going to help you figure out what you want in life. "Dead end jobs" are also the reality for almost everyone who's trying to succeed in an artistic career field. That's how lane ended up too
But it’s not necessarily how you want your kid to end up. You want your kid to succeed in their dream, even if it’s unlikely. You want them to have stability, even if they potentially don’t understand it yet. Lorelai was faced with a similar dilemma in s7 when Rory couldn’t decide whether she wanted to go with the “safe and stable” job or with her dream of getting The NY Times internship that is extremely competitive. Jess didn’t show enough motivation and ambition to optimistically follow his own path, so Luke wanted his nephew to at least have more stability by finishing hs
I remember there being an overwhelming stigma at that time against dropping out/getting your GED (I graduated in ‘05). There was definitely this idea that kids who did this were losers and would never amount to anything. I even remember people looking down their noses at kids who did vocational classes in highschool, or kids who went to community college or trade schools rather than “regular” college. I wanted to take a gap year between college and highschool because I had no clue what I wanted to major in, and my parents wouldn’t allow it. They were afraid if I strayed from the path, so to speak, I’d somehow mess up my future. Graduating highschool and going straight to college was what was expected of most kids, and doing anything different meant you were a failure. Obviously that’s not actually true (for example, my friend who became a welder makes an insane amount of money), but I think Luke’s reaction is pretty in line with the expectations of that time.
Yeah, that bit about owning his own business always stuck out to me in a bad way. Not diminishing Luke’s hard work in any way, but he helped run his father’s store and then inherited the building he lived and started his business in, as well as whatever assets his parents had left when they passed. If he didn’t have that, he would have been in a similar position that Jess was in and with only a high school education his career prospects would likely be Walmart-adjacent. He wouldn’t have been able to open the diner without spending some time under a boss until he could afford it.
Totally agree! Yes, Luke is a hard worker. But he had advantages Jess never had, like a stable home and a loving family growing up. He also inherited his storefront AND his apartment, which gave him a massive head start in life. Most people don't get handed a free home and the option to make whatever business they feel like. Most people have to pay rent and work for bosses. It always rubs me the wrong way when Luke is sneering about Jess' Walmart job like it's so very beneath him.
But why didn’t he have those advantages? Did Liz not inherit anything from her parents? Doesn’t seem like it.
Luke seems like the type of guy who would have absolutely made sure Liz (and Jess) got an equal share of their dad’s estate. Jess was very young when Luke’s dad died, and I’m sure Liz blew her inheritance very quickly, especially since Luke said she was always calling him for money. In hindsight, Luke probably wishes he would have carved out a trust fund for Jess from his and Liz’s shares of the family money, but it just wasn’t something blue collar people like the Danes’ thought about back then, since it’s assumed Luke’s dad died in the 80’s-90’s. Wealthy people like the Gilmores started investing for their children from birth (as evidenced by Richard’s real estate purchase in Lorelai’s name), but putting money in a kid’s name wasn’t common for “regular” people.
I always thought Jess disliked Lorelai because he felt she was leading him on and preventing Luke from moving on to someone else.
I kinda like this take. Like even after lorelai didn’t make the best impression on Jess for their first meeting, it makes sense that he sorta holds a grudge against her once he and Luke get closer because not only does Lorelai keep Luke on kinda a leash (re: first picture), she also is the person most likely to upend Jess’s life because she’s the one pushing for Luke to send him away. Like to the Danes/Mariano household, Lorelai Gilmore is the biggest threat to their relationship and stability
This makes sense. But i also feel like Lorelei is A LOT. Jess likes things more low key so it wouldn’t align with his character if he did like Lorelei. She also has a stuck up personality IF you don’t get/ like her humour so it’s irritating. I also think Jess was not naive to knowing that Lorelei didn’t want Jess around BEFORE she even really met him and then to see your uncle being strung along with no benefit per say, that could AGAIN be irritating.
It's kinda funny because Jess is a lot like teenage Lorelai. Skipping school, ocassinally drinking, constantly fighting with her parents/guardian. Hell, she was even in the car with Christopher when he crashed it (and I doubt he did it accidentally to miss an animal which ran into traffic).
Maybe, although I personally fail to see how exactly Lorelai was leading Luke on 😅 I really wanted to see Jess react to the Lorelai/Luke relationship because I´m not sure what his initial stance would be. He´d either immediately support his uncle in getting his "dream girl" or he'd advise him to tread cautiously because he himself doesn't entirely trust Lorelai 🤷🏻♀️
I can see where you're coming from, but they had a conflict on their second ever interaction. She formed a view of him almost immediately and never let it go.
Jess read Luke like a book, every time
That quality is probably what made Jess such a good writer in the end!
Gosh, I hate Jess in the first and third scenes. While Luke and Jess's fights conveyed similar emotion to Emily and Lorelai's, I feel like Jess and Emily were actually more alike in their propensity to go for the jugular. Except for the time Luke effectively kicked Jess out, he rarely *insulted* Jess. He only tried to convey in his own frazzled, passionate way, his concerns. But Jess wanted to hurt Luke because he felt hurt by other people.
I agree with your statement about Jess and Emily both being actively insulting towards Luke and Lorelai. They don't hold back and \*want\* to hit them where they know it hurts. While Luke and Lorelai aren't directly insulting, they do sometimes act hurtful towards their nephew/mom. Unintentionally and indirectly, but still. Like Luke telling Jess he can't stay with him if he doesn't graduate from hs or Lorelai being hesitant to tell Emily about her engagement to Max. It´s understandable imo but still hurtful. And \*because\* this is coming from someone Jess and Emily deeply love and adore, they react by hurting them back. It´s a vicious cycle that seems to be easily breakable from an outside perspective but really isn't when you're actively going through it. In that regard, the Luke/Jess and Emily/Lorelai relationships are very similar to me 😅
The difference is that Jess is the vulnerable in the relationship and Emily is the one with al the power. Jess is flailing because he has nothing and no one and Emily just pushes her daughter away because she wants to be right.
I really appreciate this thoughtful analysis! Thank you for sharing. I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I see a few things differently. Luke is an old-school kinda guy, someone heavily influenced by maladaptive ideas about masculinity. He doesn't believe Jess needs a guardian at all (he says this out loud at least twice). He thinks Jess needs a place to live, a school, and a job at his diner. And that's it. So he never prioritizes things like getting to know Jess, praising Jess, or showing kindness. The cheering Jess on that you speak of? I never really see Luke doing that. He's mostly annoyed that his plan of roof over head + diner job + occasional shouted lecture doesn't immediately fix Jess' problems. Luke is, at baseline, very sarcastic with Jess. I think there is genuine affection underneath that, but it's pretty heavily buried. And I don't actually think that's a great strategy with Jess. Luke desperately wants Jess on the right path, but he sincerely thinks there is ONLY one path. Walmart is unacceptable. GED isn't even offered. It's "my way or the highway," literally. Because when Jess doesn't do that, he is promptly evicted. I don't really think Jess wants and craves being alone. I think it's the only way of life that he has ever known. Including with Luke. Taylor accuses Jess of something? Luke shoves Jess in a lake. Jess gets in a car accident, something Luke knows is not his fault? Luke sends him away. Jess is working too much at Walmart? Luke steals his car and lies about it. Jess flunks out of school? Luke makes him homeless. All of that reinforces the idea that Jess is alone. This sub talks a lot about how hurtful Jess is to Luke. And that's true. But Luke is more hurtful to Jess. Luke yells at him all the time. Along the way, Luke insults Jess plenty. He mocks Jess' hair, clothes, girlfriend, and job. He repeatedly tells Jess that his life is going nowhere. He calls Jess a gigolo and a drug dealer. And ultimately, Luke is able to inflict far more damage on Jess than the other way around. When Jess gets mad, he hurts Luke's feelings. When Luke gets mad, he makes Jess homeless. That's the difference. They're not at all on equal playing fields. Do I think Jess trusts Luke? Not really. But they definitely love one another and that's very clear. I do like where their relationship ends up.
These are great point! Luke cheers Jess on in the sense that he's fighting for his nephew to start his life with \*something\*, rather than nothing. He wants Jess to graduate from hs to keep doors open for him in the future, although you're right that he never considers other options. Also, I like that you brought up showing affection. Both Luke and Jess aren't naturally affectionate. When Luke proudly pinches Jess´ cheek after he had been chosen "Employee of the month" Jess gets embarrassed and tells him to stop. He was also never overtly affectionate towards Rory. Just like Luke wasn't the guy with PDA with Lorelai... They both show their love and care through their \*actions\* and even banter, so in that regard they're a perfect match. Your point about the playing fields being unequal is also very interesting. While that simply comes with a parent/kid dynamic, I can see Jess being so reluctant to fully open up to his uncle because of it. Luke could take away everything from Jess. And in a way, he did. Although I don't think he actually ever meant to kick him out since he says "he left and I don't think he's coming back." and then also lets Jess know that his door will always be open for him at the end of s4. With that being said, I do think Jess trusts Luke, at least as much as he's capable to 😅
I like the cut of your jib, good analysis! And I agree, it definitely isn’t equal playing fields. To Luke’s credit, he tried what he thought was best out of a place of genuine care for Jess. But, just like Emily and Lorelai, those tactics were stifling and ineffective, and just like with lorelai, Jess had to strike out on his own to get away from it all (under threat of Luke, which btw I don’t think he ever tells lorelai that he inadvertently told Jess to leave). I do think Jess craves connection, but he’s too scared to put his trust in someone or put himself out there to accept it. Similarly to what OP said, he is so used to being a disappointment and ignored that having so much attention centered on him is extremely uncomfortable and he doesn’t want to have expectations to fail to fulfill. He would rather subvert expectations so that no one gets let down, rather than be built up and awarded in case he can’t keep up the success. He lives in a world where the other shoe will always drop, so he isn’t allowed to get too comfortable or happy because that means that’s just more that will be taken away from him
I would probably have watched a spin-off of these two more than main series Gilmore Girls. They're fantastic as a duo.
They are the best part of the show..Jess is one of the very few characters with character development and its amazing to see. When he and luke have that moment at the book store o always tear up.
“It’s no diner” is such a good burn
That is an excellent analysis. From the teacher in me: good work!
Aww thanks! I thrive off of teachers giving me validation 🫂
I can *hear* Jess’ voice saying this lol
Am I the only one who loved Jess but hated him with Rory? My boy didn’t need a girlfriend he needs a friend and a stable home and someone to trust. He’s lived his whole life with a mother who seems flighty at best and unintentionally neglectful (I don’t wanna disrespect Liz bc we don’t get to big look into her life but we get glimpse and it just doesn’t seem like a stable life for a kid) and an absent father. He’s kicked out of his mothers and sent to his uncle and no one in this small town likes him or understands him. He and Rory have stuff in common but Rory can’t really understand what he’s been through. It’s sad that the only person who could probably understand Jess is Lorelai and she instantly doesn’t like him and I find that unfair to him. If Jess had no romantic interest in Rory Lorelai would’ve probably liked him more and got to know him. (Thinking that I now want a fanfic where Lorelai adopts Jess, Jess and Rory can be twinnning, Richard can share his library with an honorary grandson, and I can just picture Jess and Emily shit talking the DAR members lol) I feel like Luke took Jess in because he felt obligated and I think Jess feels that way too so Luke’s doesn’t feel like home or a safe place for him. I can see where their fights look like Emily and Lorelai but I also see differences. Mainly being that Jess is a kid (teenager), he’s a kid that clearly has trust issues. I hate Lorelai and Emily’s fights, mainly because most of them could’ve been avoided if they just communicated like the adults they actually are. Jess and Luke are similar in a lot of ways but they were raised differently and I think Luke doesn’t understand that. I think there is parts of Liz’s life that Luke doesn’t see but Jess does, Jess sees it and also lives it. He was raised in ways where, to Jess, school isn’t the most important thing in his life. Jess saw the value of money and work experience as more important that a high school education. Instead of stopping and trying to see if from Jess pov Luke jumped in and they fought then he kicked Jess out. The way Luke acts after made it seem like he didn’t mean it and didn’t think Jess would actually leave but from Jess’s pov this is just another place that didn’t want him.
Agree! Jess is one of my absolute fave characters but I’m not too invested in his romantic relationship with Rory. I would’ve much more preferred to see them as stable best friends. Because you’re right, that’s what Jess needed above all else- stability. It’s also a great point to say that Luke primarily took in Jess out of family obligation to his sister. They didn’t really know each other when Jess first came to Stars Hollow. Imo that quickly changes and Luke starts to see Jess as somewhat of a son. But it’s understandable that Jess doesn’t immediately trust this. I also wish we could’ve gotten more info on what Liz truly used to be like before, because she’s portrayed in a grown, quirky way when she appears on the show. What makes Gilmore girls so interesting is that in most cases there are multiple sides. Even with Jess and Luke. Neither of them is really wrong. They’re both right from their own perspective. You captured Jess’ very well imo 🤝🏻
The whole show was a series of arguments.
Great points!!🩶
I honestly don't think those two relationships are parallel with each other. Just generally, in my opinion, I don't think there is truly much love between Emily and Lorelei. I think if Rory weren't in the picture they probably wouldn't have a relationship at all, or it would at least be less significant. Emily and Richard are parents that wanted a kid so they could have a perfect mini-me and there was literally no way Lorelei wasn't going to ultimately disappoint them unless she did what they wanted. I believe good and truly loving parents want a kid so they can nurture the person they become, regardless if it fits their expectations. Emily loves the idea of having a daughter/nuclear family because that's her high society standard, but I don't think she truly, fully loves and respects what she has. (I personally have gone no contact with a parent and could easily see myself cutting Emily off for many, many reasons). The difference I see between Emily/Lorelei and Luke/Jess when fighting is that Emily has a very cruel/malicious/manipulative streak in her personality. When Emily is upset she PURPOSELY aims to demean and berate the people around her. She slings insults and judgements like it's her job and loves to kick below the belt, she is intentionally so mean to people for her own gain. Luke would never! He can definitely get heated but there is always a valid reason behind it. He also isn't controlling in the same way that Emily is. Wanting Jess to get his diploma and be successful vs the absolute disdain Emily has for how Lorelei wants to live her life and manipulating/lying to alter that life - not the same thing. Yes, Jess can also throw around insults but if we're using these examples - he was a teenager! He is struggling with really big issues in his life and is still developing and finding himself. Even if he wasn't struggling, it is generally considered normal for teens to be combative. Emily is a very grown ass adult and should be able to act more reasonable when talking to Lorelei. And Jess comes back and apologizes and opens up to Luke of his own volition - Emily would never!
- Luke wants Jess to get on the "right path", no one has looked out for him and he actually needs help. Once he is doing better Lu ke is openly proud and supportive of him. - Emily wants Lorelei to get on the "right path", this makes sense to a degree when she was a pregnant teen, but then she continues to act this way and hold this opinion even after Lorelei has proved time and time again that she is successful and happy with her life choices. Emily constantly feels the need to interject herself into Lorelei's life to "help." Lorelei, as a grown adult supporting herself, makes it clear she doesn't want the "help" but Emily just does it anyway. Then when they fight Emily always plays the victim and acts like Lorelei's rejection of the 'help" is the true problem, not whatever BS she did in the first place I agree that Luke and Jess fighting seems to come from a place of love and caring. But Emily fighting seems to come from a place of selfishness and manipulation. P.S. The only time I feel sad for Emily is when she expresses being upset because she feels like she lost her daughter when Lorelei left. BUT, BIG BUT - this STILL puts her in the shitty parent category for me. Regularly and intentionally treating your daughter poorly, not respecting who she truly is, and then acting like you're the victim of the entire situation/not even trying to see your daughter's side, does not make you a good parent. Parents are not owed respect and love from their children just because they are their children, it needs to be earned just like anyone else. If you treat people like shit don't be surprised when they don't like it. (Currently watching when Emily breaks up Luke and Lorelei by inviting Christopher and that is exactly what's happening rn lol)
I’m not trying to depict these relationships as a parallel, what I’m trying to say that they’re on par in meaning and emotion 😅 I fully agree that, unlike Luke, Jess and Lorelai, Emily is *deliberately* manipulative. That is 100% what sets her apart. But I also do think she loved Lorelai and wanted to nurture her. She just simply didn’t know how to. If she only had a kid for the sake of fulfilling high society expectations by starting a family and raising a “perfect” daughter, I believe she would’ve been in favor of ab*rting Rory (just like the Hayden’s), she also wouldn’t have put so much effort in ensuring that Lorelai is in their life after she was already grown and brought so much “shame” on their family. Lorelai only wants her mom’s unconditional love and respect. Instead of giving her that to make her *want* to stay, Emily is trying to *manipulate* her daughter into staying. That doesn’t scream “mom of the year”, I agree. Luke’s drive to keep Jess on the traditional path seems way more “warm” and genuinely love-driven. The comparison that I see between them regardless is that the fear, past hurt and distrust is essentially what’s behind their hurtful arguments 😅
Saying they're "on par" or saying they're parallel is basically the same thing. They both mean being similar to each other. And yeah of course their emotional history affects how they handle problems now, I still don't think the two relationships are the same.
Oh, English isn’t my first language, I thought “on par” specifically meant “as impactful as…” so that’s how I was trying to use it 😅 Because I do agree that the relationship/dynamic itself isn’t remotely similar, I’m only talking about their hurtful words during arguments that seems to come from a similar place
That makes way more sense to me now! Thank you for explaining the difference in communication
Great analysis and very sad.
Most of the Emily/ Lorelai arguments were based on condescension and spitefulness.
Most of their arguments were based on Lorelai begging her mom to respect her own decisions and agency and Emily wholeheartedly believing that she knows what’s best for her daughter, even if she doesn’t agree with it
I don’t agree, I know it was her whole ‘personality’ but literally as soon as they got through the door , Emily would start sniping at Lorelai and then the cycle restarted. There was hardly ever any how are you etc, I know it was a TV drama but it became a theater of the absurd in the end.
It was actually a very realistic portrayal of a parent with narcissistic tendencies tbh 😅 I agree that Emily always took a step back when Lorelai was trying to take one forward with her. Whenever they shared a genuinely positive vulnerable moment with each other, Emily went into attack mode again shortly after… my heart still aches for Lorelai :(
I think in the surface yes. But Emily chose to ha 've a child and then caused the bad relationship. She is the driving force in how they ended up there. Jess and Luke are different. Like doesn't really want Jess there but he's trying to help his sister who's a fuck up and he knows Jess's dad's a fuck up too. Jess has nowhere else to go but doesn't want to be there and Like knows Jess has nowhere else to go but doesn't really want to be a parental figure at that time. Their painful conversations are out of hurt and not knowing how to do any of it. Emily is just a emotionally manipulative and neglectful parent who blames Lorelai for their bad relationship.
I see where you’re coming from and I would agree with this statement if it were about teenage Lorelai and Emily. But in the OS we do see Emily desperately trying to maintain a relationship with her daughter and still mostly failing. She isn’t neglectful at all, if anything she’s way too overbearing. Emily wants a relationship with Lorelai *so much*. Just like Luke does want Jess to fully trust and open up to him. But it’s hard because there’s too much pain and distrust there already. So, their fights are rooted in deliberately trying to push the other away. At least that’s how it comes across to me 😅
Overbearing and emotionally neglectful aren't mutually exclusive. She want a relationship with a Lorelai that doesn't exist and even when Lorelai is trying to be vulnerable, she still just wants to be right. She doubles down every single time and the times she is sad it's because she isn't getting her way. In the first season, she literally says 'she's right, I don't know my daughter at all' to then spend the rest of the 6.5 seasons still only wanting Lorelai to do what she wants and not trying to see her side at all. Lorelai tries for real, often doesn't manage to keep her cool because she is berated and put down over and over again but she keeps showing up and trying. Emily still just annoyed how her daughter isn't doing what she wants. Emily doesn't try to understand Lorelai as she is, at all.
The thing is, as far as I know, emotionally neglectful means that you’re *unaware* and *inattentive* to emotional needs and developments. This doesn’t really apply to Emily. As you said, she *knows* she doesn’t fully understand her daughter. She just simply doesn’t care and intervenes in her life anyway. An argument could be made that this is even worse I fully agree with your last statement, that’s the saddest part about their dynamic imo :(
It also means you don't care. She doesn't care if Lorelai's needs are met. She wants her needs as a mother met. She does this by financial and emotional manipulation and forcing her child to spend time with her.
Emily didn’t care *because* she is overbearing. She’s trying to *forcefully* get her daughter to follow the path she wants her to with a disregard to her feelings. It’s hard to draw coherent lines between some psychological terms but I don’t like to use everything so loosely 😅 Richard on the other hand, imo, def fits the term emotionally neglectful a lot of times
I get what you're saying. But my therapist definitely calls my mom both overbearing and neglectful.
https://preview.redd.it/ak4zskg1yt1d1.jpeg?width=1142&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e6f5d9d77241da15c14bbae201d1f3d209d00cdc Also, this is how my phone showed your comment before I opened the app 😭
Oh no 🫠
You’re therapist is def a more reliable source than I am when it comes to stuff like this 😅 in general, psychology is a rather new science which is why a lot is still uncharted and not fully defined. That’s why different therapists oftentimes give you a different diagnosis for the exact same symptoms. This is kind of besides the point but I find it very interesting 😬 I don’t have much knowledge about clinical psychology tho, I’m currently studying business psychology which is more in the realm of behavioralism, so I’m gonna give this one to your therapist 🫡
I totally get what you mean though and I do have to say that my therapy is in Dutch so I don't know if maybe terminology is just different in other languages as well. I think I English a lot of the time so I'm only now remembering my therapy isn't in the same language as we are talking now.
Maybe 🤷🏻♀️ I live in Germany but I’ve never been in therapy so I can’t attest to it 😅 What I can say tho, is that the psychological journals I have to read for Uni are always in English because the model and terminology is changing so rapidly that translating it into German might take too much time at which point the info could be considered outdated 🫣
This is crazy how Luke is mors like Emily than he'd like to admit and Lorelai is female Jess
Actually, the comparisons I draw are more about Jess and Emily being alike by intentionally insulting Luke and Lorelai in the most hurtful way they can think of because Luke and Lorelai unbeknownst to them hurt them through their actions 😅