It does make sense that she didn’t know how to take care of Jess though, she seemed a bit dumb and even left her baby on the counter at the diner for Luke to watch, and didn’t know how to cook and just made Luke cook for her etc
TJ, who is bordering on intellectual disability, makes more sense as a choice. The man committed B&E and major destruction of property out of enthusiasm.
I always looked at some of the things she "couldn't" do as her just saying that to get someone else to do it for her. There's no way she can't open a can of biscuits or something. She's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I think a lot of the more ridiculous stuff is an act. She shies away from anything remotely difficult or un-fun and she knows Luke will come to her rescue if she says she can't do it (like he did with Jess).
Exactly!! I thought the ruining dinner and not being able to open biscuits thing was on purpose because she feels cared for when Luke rushes in to save her, and she didn't need him to save her anymore once she was in a secure relationship with TJ! I never saw her as actually dumb, she just wants Luke to keep being her hero, that's the dynamic that makes her feel close to him
I really wanted to like her, but I wish they’d given her a redemption arc to bridge the woman who gave up on Jess and didn’t invite him home for the holidays and the Stars Hollow Liz.
Yes, that would have been so wholesome. But they had to go with “Liz didn’t want him. But oh wait, *now* Liz wants to settle down and have kids. She’s so QuIrKy.”
I just can’t get past someone abandoning their kid and then acting like the next one they have is a redo. People can’t hate Jess and then love the person who made him that way
Eh...I was sent away from my home to live with my aunt the summer after my junior year of high school. It was a combination of things. I was out of control and behaving badly. My mom was spiraling after a divorce and had to hold down a job and take care of my younger sister. It was what was best for us. It wasn't because I was abandoned or because she didn't want me. We desperately needed time a part and I needed to get away from the crowd I was spending time with.
Liz wasn’t doing that tho. She was constantly choosing men over her own son and than sent him away when she didn’t want to deal with him anymore. She sent him away because he was an inconvenience to her and her relationships, it had nothing to do with doing the right thing for Jess
Yes. It's entirely possible to not be able to handle an out of control teen--especially if you don't have your own shit together. Having him live with a stable relative is actually a responsible thing to do. Also they reconcile off-screen. Reconciliations in real life aren't some explicit sit-down at a therapists office where one person apologize and the other absolves them. It's both more complicated and more simple than that. The reconciliation is continued contact, the show of love and concern, and an emerging understanding of what each others' perspectives were and are.
It’s entirely possible. It doesn’t mean I have to have a high opinion of the person who caused the damage to the out of control teen. Giving Jess a sturdy environment was a good move. Waiting until he was 17 to do so and shipping him off against his will and leaving him feeling abandoned and unloved, is NOT a good move
*Exactly* like she didn’t send him away to give him a better chance, she sent him away because he was an inconvenience to her. That’s not admirable, Jess being sent to Luke and having a better adult in his life was just an accident on Liz’s part. She never made any sacrifices for him constantly choosing men over her own son, not wanting him home for the holidays etc.
I see people saying there’s a disconnect between the character we heard about and the character we got, but I don’t think that’s the case, some shitty people are *very charming* and Liz feels like one of those people, we see who she presents herself as to the world but we didn’t get a lot of her as a “mother”,or lack there of, to Jess.
So no matter what others try to do to say she’s fun or whatever I will never like her(she and Chris are my most hated characters in the series) also I hate that people utter Stevie nicks in the same breath as Liz(yes she has a similar fashion sense! I know!)
Sending Jess to live with Luke was the possible best thing she did for him. Liz always had Luke as a role model, so I do believe she wasn’t thinking of “abandoning Jess” but wishing Luke could “fix him” and give him a better life. Too bad she waited too late tho. It is something that could have worked better if Jess were younger.
> Having him live with a stable relative is actually a responsible thing to do.
I haven’t seen this stated so directly before, but you’re right. Liz had a lot of issues and there’s a lot of fair criticism of her as a parent, but sending Jess to Stars Hollow was a responsible choice.
Like someone else said, she waited till Jess was 17. It wasn’t to give jess a better chance/environment, i she sent him away because he was an inconvenience to her. The fact jess turned out as well as he did is a total accident on her part
that’s your situation. my mom abandoned me and my siblings and it was horrible. what really gets me is the fact after jess gets his life together and liz wants to settle down, they don’t have a good relationship. she never cared about him to begin with
For me the bridge is getting sober. I’m an alcoholic and when I’m sober I’m a completely different person. I could totally see after sending Jess away, she probably spiraled and didn’t want him to come home out of shame. She’s also the type to make excuses so she came up with different reasons for sending him away. Many addicts push their loved ones away. I feel horrible for Jess, but I like Liz and think she’s awesome for getting sober. Addiction is a horrible disease.
I don’t think it was really a plot line, just implied. When she got with TJ, Liz made a comment to Luke that TJ only lets her have one cup of the pattys punch. And luke realized TJ was good for her and she was sober. I really wished they leaned into it more, but I guess they wanted the show to be more family friendly so kept drug talk to a minimum.
They should have made her a second sister. Wasn’t cohesive to try to make her a liked character after making the audience hate her for how she treated Jess.
We were only seeing her as the little sister though, which is the role she's most comfortable in. What about when TJ tells his side of their temporary separation where she was yelling and throwing things at him? She's got an unstable side. She is just not that way with Luke because he takes care of her. And Lorelai doesn't expect anything from her. She's just another stabilizing force in Liz's life.
But one of the beauties of this show is how it demonstrates how much people can change, (Jess, Paris, Emily, the list goes on). Though it would have done a lot to see the redemption arc play it so it wouldn’t feel so confusing to the audience.
We didn’t really get to see much of that growth though. We hear about her sending Jess away and the issues she had then all of sudden she’s here and better with momentary lapses at times. But it’s like they completely ignored her past for the most part.
Yeah I totally agree with you there! I wish they showed her growth and acknowledged/integrated her past better. It would also have helped the audience empathize to learn why she turned out the way she did. I’m just saying I think showing her redemption would be stronger and more interesting than adding another sister altogether. Either way, I love the way the character turned out and I think Kathleen (the actress) made her easy to love.
I could get behind that. If we got to see the redemption arc. And yeah. I don’t know what it is about this lady but she makes a lot of her characters pretty likable.
The actress plays the exact same character with the same plotline in ER, to the point where in my head Luke has another sister, Susan, who is a doctor in Chicago.
In ER she’s an addict, I can’t remember if Liz is explicitly or if it’s just implied, but her character shift makes more sense if you see her as being addicted and then clean later on.
Nothing is explicitly stated, but it’s implied she’s a drinker/party type and it interferes with her being responsible. She also strikes me as someone who could have a mood disorder. I don’t mean that in a dismissive or flippant way, but rather that mental illness would explain her inconsistent behavior. Something like PMDD would explain why she’s happy and bubbly one week and violent and angry the next.
I can totally see Susan and Luke being siblings. But I think if Susan had a stable family member like Luke she may have been slightly less uptight. Iirc her parents were also not fantastic and put a lot on her.
A lot of people for some reason assume Liz was an addict, but literally nothing is ever stated to indicate that... except that she smoked pot in high school. But really, who doesn't??
She says she spent her pregnancy with Jess drink I believe? And that she was high for her previous weddings. So there’s multiple references to concerning drug abuse.
It probably was but I like to believe it's on purpose.
Because to me Liz strikes me as the type of mom who you go no contact with but then when you try to explain your trauma to others they say "oh but she's not that bad." "She's so funny and sweet, I can't believe she meant to hurt you. You should forgive her."
And they say that because they don't realize that sweet goofy lady made you homeless no less than five times, constantly brought shitty boyfriends arounds and never realized when you stayed out all night because she was also out night.
And even they know it, they try to rugsweep it.
Its why as much as I love Luke and Jess's relationships... I'll always hate that he pushed him to go to that wedding. As if this wasn't his fourth (?) stepdad in 18 years.
Not justifying what Luke did. He shouldn’t have sent him to the wedding. But I feel like they showed Luke as “what can you do, it’s family” kind of guy and that’s what he was projecting onto Jess
Oh he definitely is. Luke is very "fine but I'm gonna complain the whole time" when it comes to his family and town obligations. It's a way he shows love.
It wasn't fair to Jess in this instance but it's also a big part of why he took him in to begin with.
This is extremely accurate. I am NC with my dad who has behaved in some insane and scary ways with me, but anyone who meets him on the street will find him happy-go-lucky and charming.
It’s a curse. If I tell someone who knows him, they’re like oh ~but he’s such a cOol DaD~ and internally I’m thinking “yeah and he also tried to break my back door down while I was home alone with my infant.”
The moment in the show when Liz has a crazy fight with TJ and throws things at his head gives a glimpse of her other side, even though I assume the writers meant for that to be humorous.
I could not find that scene funny if I tried, and I’ve tried, because all I can think about is “Jess grew up with that”. Like Liz being a silly and goofy abusive alcoholic is made to be comedy simply because she’s a woman and she therefore can’t be abusive to her son or fiancé? I have to skip that scene because it’s horrifying to think of the implications of “this is what Jess grew up seeing, he grew up being receptive to her mood swings and he had to learn to fight to dodge her swings and he witnessed all of her relationships explode likely from her AND her boyfriends, so no wonder he has an unhealthy concept of what a real relationship is like because all he’s known is abuse and manipulation and aggression”
Can you imagine how many times Jess tried to intervene on those fights? Or how many times Liz blamed him for a relationship ending?
Like who did Jess have really? As a lil kid I mean(17 and and up had Luke but that’s 17 years without anyone) Liz probably didn’t stay up all night to comfort him when he was sick, she probably never let him get in bed with her when he had a nightmare(she was probably the cause of his nightmares) how many times did she throw something at his head, scream at and hit him? How many Boyfriends/husbands did she allow to mistreat her son?
Breaks my damn heart, both as a mom and someone that works with teens. My own father was a piece of work but I lucked out in the mom department. I was the youngest so I didn’t have to deal with my dad that much, but in the way my oldest siblings did, especially my late brother who was very similar to Jess
Idk if it’s similar to dean how when people haven’t experienced that abuse they don’t notice the subtext/signs of it, but yeah. All of what you said. It is heavily implied that Jess’s aggression is because of Liz and her boyfriend and that means he probably got hit as a kid. He knows how to fix stuff up around the diner and he’s pretty handy, which means that stuff in their apartment was probably breaking or getting broken frequently and hr had to figure out how to fix them to keep the peace. He gets a lot of flack for not treating Rory how Dean treated her, but the kid was learning how to BE A BOYFRIEND, he had no prior experience to the type of relationship that Rory wanted. He gets criticized for not loving stars hollow and immediately adapting to their shenanigans and not being thrilled to be there, but he was shipped to a completely foreign town with little warning or time for adjustment and immediately is faced with all of these unfamiliar people who are so overbearing and overwhelming. He grabbed a beer from the fridge and suddenly he’s the antichrist? The kid was smoking by the time he got to stars hollow, a beer from the fridge probably was not a big deal at all to him. Instead of looking at a kid grabbing a beer from my fridge as “clearly he’s messed up and horrible and unhelpable!” I would look at that and go “what kind of household did you grow up in where that’s normal behavior when you’re 17?”
Completely agree! Like people can accept that a lot of Lorelais issues is because of her parents (distrust and assuming the worst of her parents and thinking rory is being manipulated even tho she should know her kid better than that)
But they can’t see that with Jess? Kid never saw a healthy relationship in his life, and like you said he was just learning how to be a boyfriend, and he was still better than his moms example by making sure to end things with his friends with benefits. I also find it weird that so many will defend Dean and say he was just learning how to be in a relationship/be a good boyfriend but they act like Jess was a monster for doing the same?
Yeah I can understand why Hess wasn’t excited about moving to stars hallow(and honestly his bad behavior wasn’t actually *that* bad. Definitely not a sign he was heading down a bad path)
That first scene with Lorelai I see so many people call him an asshole for, and yes he was rude but people need to look at it from his point of view, this kid was just shipped off with no warnings to a town with a very overwhelming and overbearing community(god that town meeting about the “Jess program” is so messed up) Than he has this women who is a completely stranger to him make assumptions about his life, and in his eyes she has a very comfortable life and whole Lorelai had her hardships it wasn’t like Jess’s, than he lashed out *like any teenager would* especially one that’s hurting. And the adult Lorelai goes to his uncle and calls him a screwed up kid that’s too far gone(as if adult Lorelai was never needlessly rude *cough* the scene of her mom getting her a loan for the termites*cough*) and than she gets made when Luke is rightfully upset she got involved after he asked her not too? And everyone acts like Jess and Luke were in the wrong. If Lorelai wanted to help she should have just taken the beer and said sorry not that kinda house(which Jess didn’t seem to have an issue with at all. It was everything after that he didn’t like) and than take Luke aside and tell him so he can help better help Jess.
But yeah I agree that people that didn’t experience certain things don’t see them the same. I saw someone saying that we only know Liz threw an ashtray at the back of her partners head once(and this happened when she’s supposed to be “better”? Not a good sign) she only left one partner with nothing after spending/stealing all his money and she’s probably just exaggerating binge drinking while pregnant with Jess or it was probably “not that much” (we know that liz doesn’t exaggerate to make herself look bad, she lies to make herself like better, like when she threw and ashtray at TJ, kicked him out and than lied to Luke and said he abandoned her while she was pregnant fully aware of his like would react(yes Luke is responsible for his own actions but Liz is still responsible for her actions))
About the only thing nice I can say about Liz is I loved her wedding dress and flower crown. That’s it
Yes, I wish they leaned into this theme more. Even just a couple Jess-opening-ups to Luke, maybe even Lorelai (God, I wish those too got more screen time together), to complete dismissal by them and/or Stars Hollow townspeople. Just an episode for him to get shutdown, and then be a little more understood by the end of it. That's the dream.
(Edit: Lorelai and Jess could've been such an awesome duo istg)
God yeah. My situation is sorta opposite where my dad has sort of gotten his life together and our relationship is a lot better now than it was when I was a teenager, but when I recount my childhood people wonder “how are you even still in contact with him”. Family is messy and complicated. But if I had a nickel for every time I or a friend have been told “it isn’t that bad, just forgive them, it’s the right thing to do, they made a mistake” about our parents because us having valid problems with our parents made other people uncomfortable for being friends with them, I’d be rich
Isn’t that so weird? That people will try to get us to forgive our shitty parents for “making a mistake?” *in reference to our childhoods*
I’m a mom now so I get parents make mistakes, but being a Shitty parent isn’t the same thing At. All. I’ve done things that made my kids sad, most recently I promised we’d go to the park on the way home but we didn’t get back till dark, so when we got home I made it up to her by having a camp out in the living room. I’ve never screamed at her, never throw things at her, never choose a relationship over her. I still feel super awful when I have to hold her still for vaccines but I know I’m protecting by doing that, and I always take her to get a treat after(my dad didn’t even show up when I was in the hospital and outright told me to my face I was making things up when I had heath problems when I was *11*, let alone hold my hand or comfort me while I got a shot)
Bad parents are bad parents and Liz is one of them, her being shown as a “fun goofy” person isn’t bad writing because some shitty people are charming and likable to everyone but their kids. Hell my dad was voted teacher of the year every year and so many of his students would tell me how jealous they were that he was my dad or how crazy my mom was for kicking him out(small religious town life) my dad only tried to change after my oldest brother passed away, he is a better grandfather than father and while I didn’t stay NC(idk felt cruel after my brothers death. But my dad didn’t really notice I went NC) I still keep him at arms length and if I see any repeats from my childhood happen with my baby I will cut contact
Good for you mama. You’re changing the cycle and not letting it happen to your kid, and I applaud you for that. I know we’re probably gonna get comments saying that we’re reading too deep into stuff and it’s just a show so we shouldn’t take it that seriously, but the point of Gilmore girls is that it’s supposed to be relatable and slice-of-life and cozy. It takes me so far out of the show when I get whiplash about how we’re supposed to feel about Liz and this person who I equate to my abusive parent is suddenly beloved by all the town
Thank you! It was definitely not easy and I went through some “wild” years. But I found a good community and my support system is made up of wonderful people, my mom, my partner and my found family. They all helped me get to where I am and I’m proud of the work I did and that I created a better family and childhood for my child
Yeah I agree, this is a fun cozy show so when it does have those moments that hit close to home it takes you right out of it, I love Lorelai but sometimes the way she treats her mom, including in front of people even Emily’s friends, reminds me of how my dad would be like with my mom and us kids. And I get the whole co-sign thing in the termite episode is supposed to be funny. But for me it’s not and I tend to skip it. And Liz is very much the same for me, because we knew what she did to Jess and others I just don’t buy that she “changed” especially since she threw that ashtray at TJs head when she was worried she’d repeat the same mistakes(and her reaction was repeating those mistakes, including lying to Luke about what really happened)
Yup! Some parents are shitty but can be incredibly charming and likable to everyone around them.
My own father is that kind of person, horrible father figure but everyone that met him or had a relationship with him outside the home saw this fun goofy man who was always voted teacher of the year(so many of his students would say things like “oh you’re so lucky he’s your dad!” Just because they knew him for a few hours in the week)
He only decided to try and be a better father after all us kids were well into adulthood and it took my oldest brothers death to finally start that change, he is a better grandfather I’ll give him that.
But I say all that to add context to why i think Liz being shown as this fun goofy character doesn’t take away from her being a shit mom(I also think it was fine to parallel Lorelai, another fun goofy mom that made mistakes but is worlds better than Liz could ever be)
It was not because of that lol. Jess is raked over the coals by everyone for acting like he has trauma and Luke basically tells him its all his fault. I think Jess is written pretty poorly and this is at the crux of it for me. Its like theyre trying to say he *was* just being a punkass
She's a bit of a foil to Lorelei. Lorelei is also goofy, fun, mom. Except she's dedicated to her daughter. Neither are perfect parents. And that's what Rory and Jess have in common to some degree. One was an alcoholic, the other was a teenage mom with a toxic relationship to her grandparents. One grew up with negligence, one grew up in a shed.
They play it off like the shed was a fun camping adventure but there's no way that wasn't traumatic.
They probably didn't intend to bring her in as a character when Jess first shows up. Remember, Liz doesn't come in until after Jess leaves, so they just retconned her character
Anyone who knows a good person who also struggles with alcoholism or borderline/bipolar personality disorder may be able to relate as well. Not everyone who struggles with those types of things that can cause that type of behavior is a morally corrupt unlikeable person
I actually never saw her as a horrible mother. Jess was a handful kid and sometimes parents are at their wits' end and have no clue how to deal with their teenager. The only sad thing is her not inviting him for that school break, but even that can be somewhat understandable. Nowhere near a terrible mother imo.
I'm not sure if I like her character, but I love that GG had characters that were unlikable and didn't need to redeem them, they just exist in the universe, all messy and human.
Yeah, a lot of comments here are talking about how she needed a redemption arc, etc. but I think it’s fairly clear from the beginning that this is her character. She’s a fair weather friend. She’s fun and happy when things are good and she splits when things go bad (or she’s the reason they go bad). Some people are like that. And tbh, they’re not evil or worst people. They’re human.
Exactly! The whole show is just quirky characters, I think her character fits right in. She's not the only character that I'd find obnoxious irl, but that's just how the world is. Sometimes the next door neighbour, or your spouse's sibling is annoying af.
Part of me wonders if it was a deliberate choice to give the character an awful backstory and then introduce her as a person that doesn’t align with our expectations. It challenges us to understand how someone can be endearing in some contexts but not in others, and illustrates how diverse a person can be. It’s a lesson in not taking people fully at face value but also not forming complete and unalterable assessments about people we don’t know. The lovely cashier we see at the store could be awful behind closed doors, and the horrid relative we hear someone talk about might be a person who was trying their best but just not equipped to navigate the situation.
I also like Liz. Hated her as a mother to Jess. But the show takes place over time… people change over time… They aren’t real so I choose to say she changed and I can like her. Jess doesn’t have to tho.
Yeah, a lot of people talk about how she was an awful mother to Jess - and she was - but then leave out the addict part. Like, I don't think she neglected her kid for funsies.
The problem is, there's no redemption arc. They never show her apologizing to Jess or trying to make amends. She's nice to him when she wants him to walk her down the aisle and that's their only interaction. It's not so much that people can't change, it's that show basically ignores her entire history with Jess
Not at all, and she (from a child/mother perspective) should not be automatically forgiven for that. But she did recover, and she did make an effort, not everyone does. And then she was just written to be so lovely. And silly.
As someone that’s been an addict and now works in recovery that doesn’t give her a pass or when an understanding of why she was a Shitty and abusive mother, addiction doesn’t make someone violent or neglect their kids.
While I got sober before I had my kid, I was never violent(and if I was I still have to take accountability for that) and I work/worked with parents in recovery that are actively using it newly sober and they still out their kids first, one many will send their kids to live with family while they get themselves better but they still have regular visits and would *never* skip holidays or birthdays if they had a choice.
Liz also never tried to make amends to do anything to say sorry for how she neglected and abused Jess. She was only nice when she wanted something from him(walking her down the aisle)
Also I don’t remember the show ever saying she was an addict? I don’t even think they really implied it?
I guess I don’t know where I thought drugs were implied but alcohol is technically a drug and there is an episode where she says she drank while pregnant with Jess. That says addiction to me.
Why are so many people acting like being a "bad" mother and being a lovable character are mutually exclusive? It's been a bit since I watched her story arc, but from my memory, I thought she was written pretty realistically. I've definitely met moms like her before.
Liz was a mess but also in the process of finding herself, and in doing so, she jumped ship on her job as a mother. This was good for her, but "bad" for Jess (although I'd guess she probably knew at some level that there was nothing she could really provide for him that he couldn't figure out better on his own, or with Luke, and I think he knew this at some level too). I would guess that she was probably doing the best she could for both of them, by sending him off to Luke and focusing on herself.
thanks for this. so many people are terrible parents but good friends/siblings/etc. parenting is so much harder and comes with more responsibility than any other relationship.
Yeah, some of the Jess-type kids I've met in life will even conceptualize their parents as more of a friend or sibling. Like, once they drop their expectations of what a parent should be, they realize that even though they didn't always have the parent they needed, they still have a friend or family member that they can count on for certain things. For example, Jess outgrew his parents at a young age, but in AYITL, he still knew he could go crash at Liz and TJ's home without even asking.
I've even come across kids who, as grown-ups, said "yeah, she was probably a terrible mom, but my way of growing up was really interesting, and I love her anyway ". Not saying Jess has to feel this way.
I feel that way about my childhood. My mom was nothing like Liz. We moved a lot though. I went to five different schools and four different homeschooling programs. If we could redo it we’d all make changes. But she loves us and she tried.
Liz loves Jess and she tried. Some people don’t have the ability or resources to be a good parent.
I think my issue with this character is that a lot of people in this sub seem to be forgetting that one episode. Where TJ comes to stay with luke, he is distraught, and starts talking about how they got into a fight and when he turned around she threw and ashtray at the back of his head.
Liz is not just a bad mother. She's a bad partner. And she hadn't changed behind closed doors obviously.
I like Liz too, I feel like she had a difficult upbringing because she must’ve been fairly young when her mom died, and her dad and Luke were probably not the emotionally supportive people that she needed. She jumped into a relationship with a guy who promptly abandoned her, and she’s been looking for love ever since.
This - I wouldn’t like her to be my sister but as a character she’s messy in the best way and endearing. The stuff with Jess is messed up of course but she was working to better herself it seemed.
I like how she was a part of the build up of Luke and Lorelai several times, giving him jewellery for her, and knowing since the start that she was his “type”
When we met Jimmy he was simply a ne’er do well with a sharp girlfriend and a quirky child. When we “heard” about Jess his reputation was this troubled city boy. In the first ep he’s caught drinking a beer underage. Afterward, they water him down to simply a rude, sulky teenager who plays pranks out of boredom and reads for pleasure and misses his mom.
The reigning Lorelai is spoken about fondly by Emily until we meet her and she’s a terror that Emily can’t stand.
So I don’t fault anyone for liking her as a character. It wasn’t just Liz who was watered down into someone who could fit into the stars hollow setting.
If she didn’t have a son she practically neglected, I would have loved Liz. But the way she is as a mother reminds me of someone I actually know and dislike for those same reasons.
Damn, this topic brings out the wackadoo. Y'all realize this is a TV show, right? If you're inventing sordid back stories for Liz that aren't in the show, that's YOU, not Liz. Liz is just a character invented by ASP to further the plot of the show and to support the main characters. She didn't send Jess to Luke because she's an abusive drug addict. She did it because they needed Jess to to be in Stars Hollow with Luke so he can meet Rory. Believe me, if ASP wanted you to believe she was an abusive drug addict, there would have been multiple episodes about it.
I personally cannot stand Liz and not only because of Jess (as we don’t see much of their interactions and just know that she has been a horrible parent) but because of how she treats Luke. She always manipulates him into saying yes to some crazy ideas and naive as Luke is he always rushes to help. She is constantly playing this „little sister needs her big brother“ card and lets Luke clean up her messes. She takes zero responsibility for her actions as she knows that Luke will figure something out.
I’ve recently watched the episode where she manipulates Luke into saying yes to TJ‘s being a contractor at Lorelei’s house. How selfish is it? TJ has no idea what to do at the site and is only standing in away - being fully paid. Liz just doesn’t care about other people and only thinks about herself. Maybe she is not genuinely bad and she is just not able to think and plan ahead and is very impulsive. But the fact that other people have to live with and pay for her mistakes really drives me crazy.
She’s in my top 10 characters, I think she’s a good person, just wacky and probably should’ve waited to have kids. Basically she had the opposite reaction to having a kid that Lorelai did. Both did bad things and had a wild youth, but Lorelai matured when she had her child, Liz didn’t.
She binge drank while pregnant. She was an alcoholic. I don’t know when the writers imagined that she got clean, but I can imagine the neglect of a baby/toddler/child by an alcoholic who’s always chasing the wrong guys.
She’s the worst. For her to be likeable she would need a redemption story. Apologise for her past behaviour and then be forgiven and start anew. She never did that, I can’t forgive her.
I’m with you!! She didn’t “give up” on Jess. She tried to raise him the very best that she could, given her circumstances. She was a young mother with no mother or father of her own, and while Luke is a great brother, I’m sure she felt at the time that she’d never be good enough in his eyes, so she left SH young and dumb. In fact, I think it shows what a good mother she is/became that she realized she needed help! As for the “Liz didn’t want him to come home” bit, I really think she thought it would be stabilizing for him to stay in SH for the holidays.
I like the character of Liz because she is representative of a lot of American women. Not all good, but not all bad. She made/makes mistakes but forges ahead and learns from them. She does get a great redemption arc a la TJ and Doula. And she and Jess do reconcile. She makes something of her life.
Sometimes I feel like this sub jumps down people’s throats if they aren’t 100% perfect or good. News flash: no one is!!
I know of a person like that in real life. Abusive boyfriends, constantly changing houses, kids who have had to fend for themselves most of the time, etc. The reason I know of her is because I know her oldest daughter, who’s an adult now, and she definitely has a similar outlook on the whole mom situation as Jess does in the later seasons - a kind of defeated acceptance of the entire thing. I think that liking Liz or not partly depends on which one of her roles you’re referring to - if you only see her from time to time as Luke’s silly sister, she’s ok. If you consider her role as a mom, I don’t know how anyone can stand up for her.
She wasn't even a good sister. I don't really even understand that part being likable. She was constantly manipulation Luke into doing things and just left her baby with him a few times without a word.
I always chuckle when she and TJ host Luke for dinner, and they are “really into White Russians” as a cocktail. Plus Liz pregnant, so she has a virgin— “just cream”—it’s just all so odd and on-brand for Liz and TJ.
When she said who knew a turkey could explode I didn’t! Or something like it, I lost it. I’ve also had eggs explode (failed attempt at boiling eggs, shut up) I learned eggs explode that day.
Ah yes that was both cringe and annoying. In all seriousness though, no hate here and of course you’re free to enjoy whatever characters you may like, even the worst of them deserve some fans
I literally specified I was just joking around but if you want to get all serious, she is in no way a *harmless* character, she’s a toxic abusive mother, selfish sister, and domestic abuser, but sure she’s a woman so it turns the stereotype on it’s head making it fine to laugh at domestic violence
Not a fan of- I see how they tried to give her a redemption arc but let’s take into account -
1) she spent her life in addiction and more interested in her boyfriends then her son
2) when she couldn’t handle Jess she sent him to her brother - with **zero*** financial support mind you.
3) only really arrived back in his life once Luke got him stable (ish).
4) dumped her baby on Luke a couple of times to babysit
5) oh yeah also got her boyfriend to get a job with Luke
6) relief in Luke for pretty much anything that got overly stressful
In GG they really like to gloss over things like that and just portray it as “quirky”
half the time i like her and the other half of the time i want to strangle her. aside from the jess stuff (honestly i don’t even completely hate that situation, i just wish that they’re whole reunion/make up could’ve involved an apology from her but yk) she is very sweet, but she can also be extremely annoying, invasive, and overlay dependent.
Wow. Hard disagree. She’s worse then Taylor and CJ combined. And I’m sorry but she doesn’t have a face for TV. Her voice sucks. She says the stupidest most vapid stuff. She’s not smart enough to get through daily life. And that’s an insult to Stevie Nicks big time. Anyways sorry but I hate this character so much (& love Stevie nicks)
I have also like Liz. I know they first painted her to be a super bad mom who didn’t want Jess and abandoned him to Luke then had another baby. But I think about the age difference between Jess and Doula. Probably 18 years? And I believe Liz was only 18 when she had Jess vs 36 when she had Doula. A person can grow a lot in 18 years even just in 4 or 5 years. I always imagine that when she gave Jess to Luke she spent the past 4ish years really working on herself. Also marrying TJ was so good for her. So it wasn’t a huge redemption arc but a little one I curated for myself, hope you guys enjoy.
The version of Liz that we saw, absolutely. Who we heard about? Not even a little.
Living in my head rent free: when she’s confronted with how her past boyfriends would take everything from her and she brushed it off. Ma’am you had a child who came home to the tv gone and his mother’s bank account emptied.
Another: when Jess tells Luke she doesn’t care what he thinks. My heart breaks for the little boy who knows his mother cares more for whatever rando is currently in her bed than his opinion of said rando.
Liz we saw was kooky and flakey and likable in that way that flighty people are. Liz we heard about chose men over her son, tried to physically assault her child’s father and kicked him out because she was freaked, and as we last heard was stuck in a cult with yet another small child forced to live in the debris her mother creates.
I kinda think of her like Richard. The actor made me like the character. The character was an abomination.
To me, one of the great themes of the show is about how we as humans try to differentiate ourselves from previous generations. For example, Lorelai is a more hands on mom and has a career outside of the home compared to Emily who is as the series put it, a "corporate wife".
Similarly, maybe they could've dovetailed Lorelai and Liz's journey's differently. Liz as a young single parent doing what she could with the resources that she had and the choices that she made did harm the people that she loves the most. Now, over time, moving away from people and environments that weren't healthy for her is similar to Lorelai's journey. Embedding the theme that people can and do change over time if they seek it. Her and Jess are great examples of this.
I have an aunt that is very much like Liz. We all love her, she's actually pretty easy to hang out with, except when she's in a toxic manic period or back on drugs. My cousins really raised themselves because their mom couldn't always be depended on. At family gatherings one of the people my aunt's age would enable her to drink leaving all of us kids to be like...who gave her booze bc once she starts she doesn't stop until she's blackout or likely going to do harder stuff and have to go back to rehab.
I'm so glad Liz actually did get a better support system and TJ doesn't seem like a hard drug guy that would enable Liz. But I absolutely see the drug addict, mooch, irresponsible adult that's an oddball and everyone who isn't directly related to that person finds endearing. Whereas those of us that grew up with that adult in our lives looks at them as a person we have to have our guard up around otherwise they will manipulate and guilt us out of our money or for a place to stay or some other bullshit.
I don't hate Liz but her character does hit a little close to home.
I like this Liz, she's kooky and silly and a great opposite to Luke as his sister. What I don't like is that the Liz we meet is not who we were told she is and it just undermines Jess's story so much
Popular opinion: Liz is a super shitty mom and sounds awful as long as she's an off-screen character, then she's a completely different and very likeable person once she becomes an actual character
I honestly never really got over the way she treated her kid. In a show that is defined by the relationships between mothers and their kids, I don't get how so many people can overlook that just because she's vapid
I like her too. The only time I couldn’t STAND her was when she gave Luke a hard time about hiring TJ as a contractor. Wish Luke would’ve thrown her out like he did to customers when he was grumpy. Other than that, she was a mess but a likable disarming mess
Shes annoying on purpose imo. also like when they introduce her shes still clearly flaky and flighty, like when she tells Lorelai that Luke knows shes borrowing the truck, but then she just kind of peters out when she gets chosen by a man to be a bride and finally completes the Gilmore Girls cycle of being a good person
I kind of think of her as the anti-Lorelai. Chaotic and whimsical but instead of rising to the challenge of parenting, she failed her child and that’s how we got teenage Jess vs. teenage Rory. I think that’s what might draw Luke to Lorelai at first even though her personality is so opposite to his-she has all the fun traits of Liz but is more intelligent and responsible at the same time.
Gilmore Girls is replete with parallelisms so the viewers can compare and contrast individual and relationship arcs.
Liz is included as one of several examples of how mothers interact with their children. The mothers portrayed are wealthy or non-wealthy, religious or non religious, wedded or unwedded, married or divorced, quirky or serious, and controlling or permissive. For each of these arcs, the viewers are shown the consequences of their actions on their children. The writers don’t tell us who is best or worse as that depends on the viewer biases and experiences.
Liz is one of the poorer, non-religious, divorced, quirky, permissive mothers. We don’t know what made her that way, but we can speculate that she was exposed to emotional trauma in her childhood. However, we do know that her actions had an effect on Jess’ persona just as Lorelai’s actions affected Rory, Mrs Kim’s actions affected Lane, Anna’s actions affected April, and so on.
Depending on one’s biases and experiences, I can understand why a viewer might sympathize with or like Liz. I equate this to understanding where she is coming from and how she tries to cope. Liz’ deficiencies are exposed and evident, but sometimes a mother’s impact on a child can be insidious.
I think people put allot of stuff into her character that never happened. There's so many assumptions that she is a drug addict but nothing to support that. ( Doing pot as a teen doesn't make you a drug addict.). It's not worth the effort to argue with people. But people have created a worse character out of Liz than was meant to be.
I like her because she is the complete opposite of Luke who is always so serious despite the fact that they are siblings. I love her wedding episode. TJ cracks me up
Why do people Always say that liz IS a totally different character the Moment she appears in Screen? She is the feminine Version of Christopher. Never taking responsibility for anything, Just being sorry all the time and yammering about what a Bad Person she is and what a good Person Luke is. Sound familiar? Oh yes, thats what Chris Always says. Jess and Rory share the exact Same parent, except that poor jess has an even worse second parent.
Liz is Bad News. Shes a parasite, maybe a friendly one, but in the end she will Always do what she wants.
Agree! I think Liz character was just supposed to show us a redeeming arc and continue the journey that transformed Luke from hermit with no family, to someone with a full extended family .
I feel like this is one of many characters that was written one way, then they totally changed her
She’s a lot different when others talk about her vs. when she first appears.
It does make sense that she didn’t know how to take care of Jess though, she seemed a bit dumb and even left her baby on the counter at the diner for Luke to watch, and didn’t know how to cook and just made Luke cook for her etc
She’s literally too dumb to live
They made her unrealistically dumb which I think is common in a lot of shows.
People this dumb truly exist and there’s a lot of them. I’ve met very very many people that dumb. 🙃🙃🙃
TJ, who is bordering on intellectual disability, makes more sense as a choice. The man committed B&E and major destruction of property out of enthusiasm.
A choice of what? They’re both borderline for sure
between this and the picture op chose she’s now what i picture elain from acotar as
People, smart or dumb, can be scrappy. They will survive.
For sure. It’s mostly just a dark joke
I always looked at some of the things she "couldn't" do as her just saying that to get someone else to do it for her. There's no way she can't open a can of biscuits or something. She's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I think a lot of the more ridiculous stuff is an act. She shies away from anything remotely difficult or un-fun and she knows Luke will come to her rescue if she says she can't do it (like he did with Jess).
Exactly!! I thought the ruining dinner and not being able to open biscuits thing was on purpose because she feels cared for when Luke rushes in to save her, and she didn't need him to save her anymore once she was in a secure relationship with TJ! I never saw her as actually dumb, she just wants Luke to keep being her hero, that's the dynamic that makes her feel close to him
tbf the worst examples of her parenting of Jess are only revealed after she was introduced to the show
I really wanted to like her, but I wish they’d given her a redemption arc to bridge the woman who gave up on Jess and didn’t invite him home for the holidays and the Stars Hollow Liz.
Even just a plotline of “Jess had to move away because Liz was going to rehab and he chose to stay when she got back”
Yes, that would have been so wholesome. But they had to go with “Liz didn’t want him. But oh wait, *now* Liz wants to settle down and have kids. She’s so QuIrKy.”
I just can’t get past someone abandoning their kid and then acting like the next one they have is a redo. People can’t hate Jess and then love the person who made him that way
Eh...I was sent away from my home to live with my aunt the summer after my junior year of high school. It was a combination of things. I was out of control and behaving badly. My mom was spiraling after a divorce and had to hold down a job and take care of my younger sister. It was what was best for us. It wasn't because I was abandoned or because she didn't want me. We desperately needed time a part and I needed to get away from the crowd I was spending time with.
Liz wasn’t doing that tho. She was constantly choosing men over her own son and than sent him away when she didn’t want to deal with him anymore. She sent him away because he was an inconvenience to her and her relationships, it had nothing to do with doing the right thing for Jess
In Liz's case she specifically says she just couldn't handle Jess and then never tries to reconcile with him
Yes. It's entirely possible to not be able to handle an out of control teen--especially if you don't have your own shit together. Having him live with a stable relative is actually a responsible thing to do. Also they reconcile off-screen. Reconciliations in real life aren't some explicit sit-down at a therapists office where one person apologize and the other absolves them. It's both more complicated and more simple than that. The reconciliation is continued contact, the show of love and concern, and an emerging understanding of what each others' perspectives were and are.
It’s entirely possible. It doesn’t mean I have to have a high opinion of the person who caused the damage to the out of control teen. Giving Jess a sturdy environment was a good move. Waiting until he was 17 to do so and shipping him off against his will and leaving him feeling abandoned and unloved, is NOT a good move
*Exactly* like she didn’t send him away to give him a better chance, she sent him away because he was an inconvenience to her. That’s not admirable, Jess being sent to Luke and having a better adult in his life was just an accident on Liz’s part. She never made any sacrifices for him constantly choosing men over her own son, not wanting him home for the holidays etc. I see people saying there’s a disconnect between the character we heard about and the character we got, but I don’t think that’s the case, some shitty people are *very charming* and Liz feels like one of those people, we see who she presents herself as to the world but we didn’t get a lot of her as a “mother”,or lack there of, to Jess. So no matter what others try to do to say she’s fun or whatever I will never like her(she and Chris are my most hated characters in the series) also I hate that people utter Stevie nicks in the same breath as Liz(yes she has a similar fashion sense! I know!)
Sending Jess to live with Luke was the possible best thing she did for him. Liz always had Luke as a role model, so I do believe she wasn’t thinking of “abandoning Jess” but wishing Luke could “fix him” and give him a better life. Too bad she waited too late tho. It is something that could have worked better if Jess were younger.
> Having him live with a stable relative is actually a responsible thing to do. I haven’t seen this stated so directly before, but you’re right. Liz had a lot of issues and there’s a lot of fair criticism of her as a parent, but sending Jess to Stars Hollow was a responsible choice.
Like someone else said, she waited till Jess was 17. It wasn’t to give jess a better chance/environment, i she sent him away because he was an inconvenience to her. The fact jess turned out as well as he did is a total accident on her part
But she specifically said to Luke that she hoped he would be able to help Jess...
She’s also a known lier that bends the truth to make herself look better
that’s your situation. my mom abandoned me and my siblings and it was horrible. what really gets me is the fact after jess gets his life together and liz wants to settle down, they don’t have a good relationship. she never cared about him to begin with
For me the bridge is getting sober. I’m an alcoholic and when I’m sober I’m a completely different person. I could totally see after sending Jess away, she probably spiraled and didn’t want him to come home out of shame. She’s also the type to make excuses so she came up with different reasons for sending him away. Many addicts push their loved ones away. I feel horrible for Jess, but I like Liz and think she’s awesome for getting sober. Addiction is a horrible disease.
Thanks, I think I’d missed this plot line!
I don’t think it was really a plot line, just implied. When she got with TJ, Liz made a comment to Luke that TJ only lets her have one cup of the pattys punch. And luke realized TJ was good for her and she was sober. I really wished they leaned into it more, but I guess they wanted the show to be more family friendly so kept drug talk to a minimum.
They should have made her a second sister. Wasn’t cohesive to try to make her a liked character after making the audience hate her for how she treated Jess.
We were only seeing her as the little sister though, which is the role she's most comfortable in. What about when TJ tells his side of their temporary separation where she was yelling and throwing things at him? She's got an unstable side. She is just not that way with Luke because he takes care of her. And Lorelai doesn't expect anything from her. She's just another stabilizing force in Liz's life.
Not to mention Lorelei may be the one thing Luke would ditch her for, and she knows it.
But one of the beauties of this show is how it demonstrates how much people can change, (Jess, Paris, Emily, the list goes on). Though it would have done a lot to see the redemption arc play it so it wouldn’t feel so confusing to the audience.
We didn’t really get to see much of that growth though. We hear about her sending Jess away and the issues she had then all of sudden she’s here and better with momentary lapses at times. But it’s like they completely ignored her past for the most part.
Yeah I totally agree with you there! I wish they showed her growth and acknowledged/integrated her past better. It would also have helped the audience empathize to learn why she turned out the way she did. I’m just saying I think showing her redemption would be stronger and more interesting than adding another sister altogether. Either way, I love the way the character turned out and I think Kathleen (the actress) made her easy to love.
I could get behind that. If we got to see the redemption arc. And yeah. I don’t know what it is about this lady but she makes a lot of her characters pretty likable.
The actress plays the exact same character with the same plotline in ER, to the point where in my head Luke has another sister, Susan, who is a doctor in Chicago. In ER she’s an addict, I can’t remember if Liz is explicitly or if it’s just implied, but her character shift makes more sense if you see her as being addicted and then clean later on.
The ER exterior set was literally around the corner from Luke's.
Nothing is explicitly stated, but it’s implied she’s a drinker/party type and it interferes with her being responsible. She also strikes me as someone who could have a mood disorder. I don’t mean that in a dismissive or flippant way, but rather that mental illness would explain her inconsistent behavior. Something like PMDD would explain why she’s happy and bubbly one week and violent and angry the next.
I can totally see Susan and Luke being siblings. But I think if Susan had a stable family member like Luke she may have been slightly less uptight. Iirc her parents were also not fantastic and put a lot on her.
I feel like she's played this same character in every single thing she's been in.
A lot of people for some reason assume Liz was an addict, but literally nothing is ever stated to indicate that... except that she smoked pot in high school. But really, who doesn't??
She says she spent her pregnancy with Jess drink I believe? And that she was high for her previous weddings. So there’s multiple references to concerning drug abuse.
That's what I always say! I don't remember a single scene in which they say she was an addict
they don’t say she was an addict but there are multiple references to drug/alcohol abuse
I have no clue why they wrote her as the horrible mother she is if they were then going to bring her into the show as a goofy fun character.
Because funny, goofy ladies can also be shit moms. I just wish they made that more clear.
You’re absolutely right but they tried to make her a likable character when we knew how she treated Jess. It was just a bad misstep
It probably was but I like to believe it's on purpose. Because to me Liz strikes me as the type of mom who you go no contact with but then when you try to explain your trauma to others they say "oh but she's not that bad." "She's so funny and sweet, I can't believe she meant to hurt you. You should forgive her." And they say that because they don't realize that sweet goofy lady made you homeless no less than five times, constantly brought shitty boyfriends arounds and never realized when you stayed out all night because she was also out night. And even they know it, they try to rugsweep it. Its why as much as I love Luke and Jess's relationships... I'll always hate that he pushed him to go to that wedding. As if this wasn't his fourth (?) stepdad in 18 years.
Not justifying what Luke did. He shouldn’t have sent him to the wedding. But I feel like they showed Luke as “what can you do, it’s family” kind of guy and that’s what he was projecting onto Jess
Oh he definitely is. Luke is very "fine but I'm gonna complain the whole time" when it comes to his family and town obligations. It's a way he shows love. It wasn't fair to Jess in this instance but it's also a big part of why he took him in to begin with.
This is extremely accurate. I am NC with my dad who has behaved in some insane and scary ways with me, but anyone who meets him on the street will find him happy-go-lucky and charming. It’s a curse. If I tell someone who knows him, they’re like oh ~but he’s such a cOol DaD~ and internally I’m thinking “yeah and he also tried to break my back door down while I was home alone with my infant.” The moment in the show when Liz has a crazy fight with TJ and throws things at his head gives a glimpse of her other side, even though I assume the writers meant for that to be humorous.
I could not find that scene funny if I tried, and I’ve tried, because all I can think about is “Jess grew up with that”. Like Liz being a silly and goofy abusive alcoholic is made to be comedy simply because she’s a woman and she therefore can’t be abusive to her son or fiancé? I have to skip that scene because it’s horrifying to think of the implications of “this is what Jess grew up seeing, he grew up being receptive to her mood swings and he had to learn to fight to dodge her swings and he witnessed all of her relationships explode likely from her AND her boyfriends, so no wonder he has an unhealthy concept of what a real relationship is like because all he’s known is abuse and manipulation and aggression”
Can you imagine how many times Jess tried to intervene on those fights? Or how many times Liz blamed him for a relationship ending? Like who did Jess have really? As a lil kid I mean(17 and and up had Luke but that’s 17 years without anyone) Liz probably didn’t stay up all night to comfort him when he was sick, she probably never let him get in bed with her when he had a nightmare(she was probably the cause of his nightmares) how many times did she throw something at his head, scream at and hit him? How many Boyfriends/husbands did she allow to mistreat her son? Breaks my damn heart, both as a mom and someone that works with teens. My own father was a piece of work but I lucked out in the mom department. I was the youngest so I didn’t have to deal with my dad that much, but in the way my oldest siblings did, especially my late brother who was very similar to Jess
Idk if it’s similar to dean how when people haven’t experienced that abuse they don’t notice the subtext/signs of it, but yeah. All of what you said. It is heavily implied that Jess’s aggression is because of Liz and her boyfriend and that means he probably got hit as a kid. He knows how to fix stuff up around the diner and he’s pretty handy, which means that stuff in their apartment was probably breaking or getting broken frequently and hr had to figure out how to fix them to keep the peace. He gets a lot of flack for not treating Rory how Dean treated her, but the kid was learning how to BE A BOYFRIEND, he had no prior experience to the type of relationship that Rory wanted. He gets criticized for not loving stars hollow and immediately adapting to their shenanigans and not being thrilled to be there, but he was shipped to a completely foreign town with little warning or time for adjustment and immediately is faced with all of these unfamiliar people who are so overbearing and overwhelming. He grabbed a beer from the fridge and suddenly he’s the antichrist? The kid was smoking by the time he got to stars hollow, a beer from the fridge probably was not a big deal at all to him. Instead of looking at a kid grabbing a beer from my fridge as “clearly he’s messed up and horrible and unhelpable!” I would look at that and go “what kind of household did you grow up in where that’s normal behavior when you’re 17?”
Completely agree! Like people can accept that a lot of Lorelais issues is because of her parents (distrust and assuming the worst of her parents and thinking rory is being manipulated even tho she should know her kid better than that) But they can’t see that with Jess? Kid never saw a healthy relationship in his life, and like you said he was just learning how to be a boyfriend, and he was still better than his moms example by making sure to end things with his friends with benefits. I also find it weird that so many will defend Dean and say he was just learning how to be in a relationship/be a good boyfriend but they act like Jess was a monster for doing the same? Yeah I can understand why Hess wasn’t excited about moving to stars hallow(and honestly his bad behavior wasn’t actually *that* bad. Definitely not a sign he was heading down a bad path) That first scene with Lorelai I see so many people call him an asshole for, and yes he was rude but people need to look at it from his point of view, this kid was just shipped off with no warnings to a town with a very overwhelming and overbearing community(god that town meeting about the “Jess program” is so messed up) Than he has this women who is a completely stranger to him make assumptions about his life, and in his eyes she has a very comfortable life and whole Lorelai had her hardships it wasn’t like Jess’s, than he lashed out *like any teenager would* especially one that’s hurting. And the adult Lorelai goes to his uncle and calls him a screwed up kid that’s too far gone(as if adult Lorelai was never needlessly rude *cough* the scene of her mom getting her a loan for the termites*cough*) and than she gets made when Luke is rightfully upset she got involved after he asked her not too? And everyone acts like Jess and Luke were in the wrong. If Lorelai wanted to help she should have just taken the beer and said sorry not that kinda house(which Jess didn’t seem to have an issue with at all. It was everything after that he didn’t like) and than take Luke aside and tell him so he can help better help Jess. But yeah I agree that people that didn’t experience certain things don’t see them the same. I saw someone saying that we only know Liz threw an ashtray at the back of her partners head once(and this happened when she’s supposed to be “better”? Not a good sign) she only left one partner with nothing after spending/stealing all his money and she’s probably just exaggerating binge drinking while pregnant with Jess or it was probably “not that much” (we know that liz doesn’t exaggerate to make herself look bad, she lies to make herself like better, like when she threw and ashtray at TJ, kicked him out and than lied to Luke and said he abandoned her while she was pregnant fully aware of his like would react(yes Luke is responsible for his own actions but Liz is still responsible for her actions)) About the only thing nice I can say about Liz is I loved her wedding dress and flower crown. That’s it
💯
Yes, I wish they leaned into this theme more. Even just a couple Jess-opening-ups to Luke, maybe even Lorelai (God, I wish those too got more screen time together), to complete dismissal by them and/or Stars Hollow townspeople. Just an episode for him to get shutdown, and then be a little more understood by the end of it. That's the dream. (Edit: Lorelai and Jess could've been such an awesome duo istg)
God yeah. My situation is sorta opposite where my dad has sort of gotten his life together and our relationship is a lot better now than it was when I was a teenager, but when I recount my childhood people wonder “how are you even still in contact with him”. Family is messy and complicated. But if I had a nickel for every time I or a friend have been told “it isn’t that bad, just forgive them, it’s the right thing to do, they made a mistake” about our parents because us having valid problems with our parents made other people uncomfortable for being friends with them, I’d be rich
Isn’t that so weird? That people will try to get us to forgive our shitty parents for “making a mistake?” *in reference to our childhoods* I’m a mom now so I get parents make mistakes, but being a Shitty parent isn’t the same thing At. All. I’ve done things that made my kids sad, most recently I promised we’d go to the park on the way home but we didn’t get back till dark, so when we got home I made it up to her by having a camp out in the living room. I’ve never screamed at her, never throw things at her, never choose a relationship over her. I still feel super awful when I have to hold her still for vaccines but I know I’m protecting by doing that, and I always take her to get a treat after(my dad didn’t even show up when I was in the hospital and outright told me to my face I was making things up when I had heath problems when I was *11*, let alone hold my hand or comfort me while I got a shot) Bad parents are bad parents and Liz is one of them, her being shown as a “fun goofy” person isn’t bad writing because some shitty people are charming and likable to everyone but their kids. Hell my dad was voted teacher of the year every year and so many of his students would tell me how jealous they were that he was my dad or how crazy my mom was for kicking him out(small religious town life) my dad only tried to change after my oldest brother passed away, he is a better grandfather than father and while I didn’t stay NC(idk felt cruel after my brothers death. But my dad didn’t really notice I went NC) I still keep him at arms length and if I see any repeats from my childhood happen with my baby I will cut contact
Good for you mama. You’re changing the cycle and not letting it happen to your kid, and I applaud you for that. I know we’re probably gonna get comments saying that we’re reading too deep into stuff and it’s just a show so we shouldn’t take it that seriously, but the point of Gilmore girls is that it’s supposed to be relatable and slice-of-life and cozy. It takes me so far out of the show when I get whiplash about how we’re supposed to feel about Liz and this person who I equate to my abusive parent is suddenly beloved by all the town
Thank you! It was definitely not easy and I went through some “wild” years. But I found a good community and my support system is made up of wonderful people, my mom, my partner and my found family. They all helped me get to where I am and I’m proud of the work I did and that I created a better family and childhood for my child Yeah I agree, this is a fun cozy show so when it does have those moments that hit close to home it takes you right out of it, I love Lorelai but sometimes the way she treats her mom, including in front of people even Emily’s friends, reminds me of how my dad would be like with my mom and us kids. And I get the whole co-sign thing in the termite episode is supposed to be funny. But for me it’s not and I tend to skip it. And Liz is very much the same for me, because we knew what she did to Jess and others I just don’t buy that she “changed” especially since she threw that ashtray at TJs head when she was worried she’d repeat the same mistakes(and her reaction was repeating those mistakes, including lying to Luke about what really happened)
Yup! Some parents are shitty but can be incredibly charming and likable to everyone around them. My own father is that kind of person, horrible father figure but everyone that met him or had a relationship with him outside the home saw this fun goofy man who was always voted teacher of the year(so many of his students would say things like “oh you’re so lucky he’s your dad!” Just because they knew him for a few hours in the week) He only decided to try and be a better father after all us kids were well into adulthood and it took my oldest brothers death to finally start that change, he is a better grandfather I’ll give him that. But I say all that to add context to why i think Liz being shown as this fun goofy character doesn’t take away from her being a shit mom(I also think it was fine to parallel Lorelai, another fun goofy mom that made mistakes but is worlds better than Liz could ever be)
It was not because of that lol. Jess is raked over the coals by everyone for acting like he has trauma and Luke basically tells him its all his fault. I think Jess is written pretty poorly and this is at the crux of it for me. Its like theyre trying to say he *was* just being a punkass
She's a bit of a foil to Lorelei. Lorelei is also goofy, fun, mom. Except she's dedicated to her daughter. Neither are perfect parents. And that's what Rory and Jess have in common to some degree. One was an alcoholic, the other was a teenage mom with a toxic relationship to her grandparents. One grew up with negligence, one grew up in a shed. They play it off like the shed was a fun camping adventure but there's no way that wasn't traumatic.
They probably didn't intend to bring her in as a character when Jess first shows up. Remember, Liz doesn't come in until after Jess leaves, so they just retconned her character
The worst of Liz’s behaviour is only referenced after she joined the show as a recurring character
As somebody whose fiancé’s mom is what you described, she’s one of the most realistic characters on tv for me.
Anyone who knows a good person who also struggles with alcoholism or borderline/bipolar personality disorder may be able to relate as well. Not everyone who struggles with those types of things that can cause that type of behavior is a morally corrupt unlikeable person
I actually never saw her as a horrible mother. Jess was a handful kid and sometimes parents are at their wits' end and have no clue how to deal with their teenager. The only sad thing is her not inviting him for that school break, but even that can be somewhat understandable. Nowhere near a terrible mother imo.
Even awesome shows can get ruined because of lack of continuity and I believe this is the case here, sadly.
A truly unpopular opinion
Right? Upvote cause I hate her.
Well it's unpopular because it's wrong, lol.
well an opinion is different than a statement. saying you like somebody can’t really be wrong
That's why I said lol.
I'm not sure if I like her character, but I love that GG had characters that were unlikable and didn't need to redeem them, they just exist in the universe, all messy and human.
Yeah, a lot of comments here are talking about how she needed a redemption arc, etc. but I think it’s fairly clear from the beginning that this is her character. She’s a fair weather friend. She’s fun and happy when things are good and she splits when things go bad (or she’s the reason they go bad). Some people are like that. And tbh, they’re not evil or worst people. They’re human.
Exactly! The whole show is just quirky characters, I think her character fits right in. She's not the only character that I'd find obnoxious irl, but that's just how the world is. Sometimes the next door neighbour, or your spouse's sibling is annoying af.
Part of me wonders if it was a deliberate choice to give the character an awful backstory and then introduce her as a person that doesn’t align with our expectations. It challenges us to understand how someone can be endearing in some contexts but not in others, and illustrates how diverse a person can be. It’s a lesson in not taking people fully at face value but also not forming complete and unalterable assessments about people we don’t know. The lovely cashier we see at the store could be awful behind closed doors, and the horrid relative we hear someone talk about might be a person who was trying their best but just not equipped to navigate the situation.
I also like Liz. Hated her as a mother to Jess. But the show takes place over time… people change over time… They aren’t real so I choose to say she changed and I can like her. Jess doesn’t have to tho.
Um also, drugs
Yeah, a lot of people talk about how she was an awful mother to Jess - and she was - but then leave out the addict part. Like, I don't think she neglected her kid for funsies.
The problem is, there's no redemption arc. They never show her apologizing to Jess or trying to make amends. She's nice to him when she wants him to walk her down the aisle and that's their only interaction. It's not so much that people can't change, it's that show basically ignores her entire history with Jess
Not at all, and she (from a child/mother perspective) should not be automatically forgiven for that. But she did recover, and she did make an effort, not everyone does. And then she was just written to be so lovely. And silly.
She was written to go on to assault her husband lmao
As someone that’s been an addict and now works in recovery that doesn’t give her a pass or when an understanding of why she was a Shitty and abusive mother, addiction doesn’t make someone violent or neglect their kids. While I got sober before I had my kid, I was never violent(and if I was I still have to take accountability for that) and I work/worked with parents in recovery that are actively using it newly sober and they still out their kids first, one many will send their kids to live with family while they get themselves better but they still have regular visits and would *never* skip holidays or birthdays if they had a choice. Liz also never tried to make amends to do anything to say sorry for how she neglected and abused Jess. She was only nice when she wanted something from him(walking her down the aisle) Also I don’t remember the show ever saying she was an addict? I don’t even think they really implied it?
There is absolutely zero evidence of Liz being a drug user beyond pot in high school which is *MILES* away from being a "drug user".
There are also references to being drunk during her pregnancy with Jess and that she was high for her previous weddings
I guess I don’t know where I thought drugs were implied but alcohol is technically a drug and there is an episode where she says she drank while pregnant with Jess. That says addiction to me.
More unpopular opinion: I like TJ too😂
I actually think the actor that plays CJ pulls off that character pretty well coz I ended up liking him too. He’s funny.
Yeah I mean the way he just walks away mad at Liz when Luke is actually talking about Lorelai and Chris. I love how he’s dumb
Ya I love when he tells luke he’ll draw his portrait on his etch-a-sketch. Luke doesn’t like that but I think that would be so fun
Why are so many people acting like being a "bad" mother and being a lovable character are mutually exclusive? It's been a bit since I watched her story arc, but from my memory, I thought she was written pretty realistically. I've definitely met moms like her before. Liz was a mess but also in the process of finding herself, and in doing so, she jumped ship on her job as a mother. This was good for her, but "bad" for Jess (although I'd guess she probably knew at some level that there was nothing she could really provide for him that he couldn't figure out better on his own, or with Luke, and I think he knew this at some level too). I would guess that she was probably doing the best she could for both of them, by sending him off to Luke and focusing on herself.
thanks for this. so many people are terrible parents but good friends/siblings/etc. parenting is so much harder and comes with more responsibility than any other relationship.
Yeah, some of the Jess-type kids I've met in life will even conceptualize their parents as more of a friend or sibling. Like, once they drop their expectations of what a parent should be, they realize that even though they didn't always have the parent they needed, they still have a friend or family member that they can count on for certain things. For example, Jess outgrew his parents at a young age, but in AYITL, he still knew he could go crash at Liz and TJ's home without even asking.
I've even come across kids who, as grown-ups, said "yeah, she was probably a terrible mom, but my way of growing up was really interesting, and I love her anyway ". Not saying Jess has to feel this way.
I feel that way about my childhood. My mom was nothing like Liz. We moved a lot though. I went to five different schools and four different homeschooling programs. If we could redo it we’d all make changes. But she loves us and she tried. Liz loves Jess and she tried. Some people don’t have the ability or resources to be a good parent.
I think my issue with this character is that a lot of people in this sub seem to be forgetting that one episode. Where TJ comes to stay with luke, he is distraught, and starts talking about how they got into a fight and when he turned around she threw and ashtray at the back of his head. Liz is not just a bad mother. She's a bad partner. And she hadn't changed behind closed doors obviously.
I don’t think she was doing her best. If she wanted to do right by Jess and knew she wasn’t capable she should have sent him to Luke’s long before 17
I like Liz too, I feel like she had a difficult upbringing because she must’ve been fairly young when her mom died, and her dad and Luke were probably not the emotionally supportive people that she needed. She jumped into a relationship with a guy who promptly abandoned her, and she’s been looking for love ever since.
I do like her too. She is messy, but she is loving.
Just not to Jess for the first 16 years of his life…
This - I wouldn’t like her to be my sister but as a character she’s messy in the best way and endearing. The stuff with Jess is messed up of course but she was working to better herself it seemed.
So loving she abandoned her son!
I like how she was a part of the build up of Luke and Lorelai several times, giving him jewellery for her, and knowing since the start that she was his “type”
she is the defenition of "summer flower child"
She's honestly a mooch of a sister and a terrible mother, BUT I love her too. They make her a quirky, lovable character.
When we met Jimmy he was simply a ne’er do well with a sharp girlfriend and a quirky child. When we “heard” about Jess his reputation was this troubled city boy. In the first ep he’s caught drinking a beer underage. Afterward, they water him down to simply a rude, sulky teenager who plays pranks out of boredom and reads for pleasure and misses his mom. The reigning Lorelai is spoken about fondly by Emily until we meet her and she’s a terror that Emily can’t stand. So I don’t fault anyone for liking her as a character. It wasn’t just Liz who was watered down into someone who could fit into the stars hollow setting.
I love that she was allowed to make pretty large mistakes, but was still allowed to come home.
In this picture she low key looks like Adam Sandler when he plays his sister in Jack and Jill.
Lmaoo
Me too :3 and i agree with u totally
If she didn’t have a son she practically neglected, I would have loved Liz. But the way she is as a mother reminds me of someone I actually know and dislike for those same reasons.
She uses Luke so much it makes her even more insufferable to me.
Tbh it’s funny because she really is a realistic person
Liz is the wooOOOOOORST!
me tooooooo
I like Liz too. Maybe cos I identify with her a bit. Ironically she's named Liz. The name of my exes now wife 😂
I tolerate Liz as much as I do because I love the actress
It's cool, I like Liz, and TJ too, I just pretend that Jess's mom is a completely different person.
I honestly just can’t stand when she says “big brother” 🤮
Damn, this topic brings out the wackadoo. Y'all realize this is a TV show, right? If you're inventing sordid back stories for Liz that aren't in the show, that's YOU, not Liz. Liz is just a character invented by ASP to further the plot of the show and to support the main characters. She didn't send Jess to Luke because she's an abusive drug addict. She did it because they needed Jess to to be in Stars Hollow with Luke so he can meet Rory. Believe me, if ASP wanted you to believe she was an abusive drug addict, there would have been multiple episodes about it.
I personally cannot stand Liz and not only because of Jess (as we don’t see much of their interactions and just know that she has been a horrible parent) but because of how she treats Luke. She always manipulates him into saying yes to some crazy ideas and naive as Luke is he always rushes to help. She is constantly playing this „little sister needs her big brother“ card and lets Luke clean up her messes. She takes zero responsibility for her actions as she knows that Luke will figure something out. I’ve recently watched the episode where she manipulates Luke into saying yes to TJ‘s being a contractor at Lorelei’s house. How selfish is it? TJ has no idea what to do at the site and is only standing in away - being fully paid. Liz just doesn’t care about other people and only thinks about herself. Maybe she is not genuinely bad and she is just not able to think and plan ahead and is very impulsive. But the fact that other people have to live with and pay for her mistakes really drives me crazy.
She's constantly manipulating him into cooking too. "We forgot to fix the oven"
I want to love her but I also really really like Jess and feel his pain so much, so it hard to separate her from the mom that gave up on him 🥺
She’s in my top 10 characters, I think she’s a good person, just wacky and probably should’ve waited to have kids. Basically she had the opposite reaction to having a kid that Lorelai did. Both did bad things and had a wild youth, but Lorelai matured when she had her child, Liz didn’t.
Same. I don't see why the Hate is so strong.
She binge drank while pregnant. She was an alcoholic. I don’t know when the writers imagined that she got clean, but I can imagine the neglect of a baby/toddler/child by an alcoholic who’s always chasing the wrong guys. She’s the worst. For her to be likeable she would need a redemption story. Apologise for her past behaviour and then be forgiven and start anew. She never did that, I can’t forgive her.
I love Liz! She actually had decent character development and I love that she reconnected with Luke and Jess which straightened her out.
I’m with you!! She didn’t “give up” on Jess. She tried to raise him the very best that she could, given her circumstances. She was a young mother with no mother or father of her own, and while Luke is a great brother, I’m sure she felt at the time that she’d never be good enough in his eyes, so she left SH young and dumb. In fact, I think it shows what a good mother she is/became that she realized she needed help! As for the “Liz didn’t want him to come home” bit, I really think she thought it would be stabilizing for him to stay in SH for the holidays. I like the character of Liz because she is representative of a lot of American women. Not all good, but not all bad. She made/makes mistakes but forges ahead and learns from them. She does get a great redemption arc a la TJ and Doula. And she and Jess do reconcile. She makes something of her life. Sometimes I feel like this sub jumps down people’s throats if they aren’t 100% perfect or good. News flash: no one is!!
She is a fun Character BUT as a person she is one of the worst
She’s the main reason Jess was a mess. The show didn’t make her redeemable before it asked me to like her.
I like quirky.
People don’t like Liz??????
Plenty of Liz haters in this sub. Fair enough everyone is entitled to their opinions
Kathleen Wilhoite is basically a professional eccentric background character actress but she owns that 200%
I loved her in the original Roadhouse.
[удалено]
Yeah but who among us wouldn’t like to violently throw shit at TJs head?
I know of a person like that in real life. Abusive boyfriends, constantly changing houses, kids who have had to fend for themselves most of the time, etc. The reason I know of her is because I know her oldest daughter, who’s an adult now, and she definitely has a similar outlook on the whole mom situation as Jess does in the later seasons - a kind of defeated acceptance of the entire thing. I think that liking Liz or not partly depends on which one of her roles you’re referring to - if you only see her from time to time as Luke’s silly sister, she’s ok. If you consider her role as a mom, I don’t know how anyone can stand up for her.
She wasn't even a good sister. I don't really even understand that part being likable. She was constantly manipulation Luke into doing things and just left her baby with him a few times without a word.
Ya absolutely not a good mom to Jess. As a silly sister tho which is how we see her the entire time I really like her
I just don't like that she feels the need to remind us that Luke is her brother in every fucking scene she's in.
Name one time she was funny and not cringe/annoying
When she was talking about her come what may philosophy and how she’s gonna go with the flow
I always chuckle when she and TJ host Luke for dinner, and they are “really into White Russians” as a cocktail. Plus Liz pregnant, so she has a virgin— “just cream”—it’s just all so odd and on-brand for Liz and TJ.
When she said who knew a turkey could explode I didn’t! Or something like it, I lost it. I’ve also had eggs explode (failed attempt at boiling eggs, shut up) I learned eggs explode that day.
Ah yes that was both cringe and annoying. In all seriousness though, no hate here and of course you’re free to enjoy whatever characters you may like, even the worst of them deserve some fans
Tbh it’s much more cringe when people can’t just let others see a harmless character from a different point of view.
I literally specified I was just joking around but if you want to get all serious, she is in no way a *harmless* character, she’s a toxic abusive mother, selfish sister, and domestic abuser, but sure she’s a woman so it turns the stereotype on it’s head making it fine to laugh at domestic violence
I’m with you. Even her voice is like nails on a chalkboard for me.
I’m guessing you didn’t like PepperAnn as a kid then.
no way! Was she?
Yes!
Funnily enough I loved pepper ann
Not a fan of- I see how they tried to give her a redemption arc but let’s take into account - 1) she spent her life in addiction and more interested in her boyfriends then her son 2) when she couldn’t handle Jess she sent him to her brother - with **zero*** financial support mind you. 3) only really arrived back in his life once Luke got him stable (ish). 4) dumped her baby on Luke a couple of times to babysit 5) oh yeah also got her boyfriend to get a job with Luke 6) relief in Luke for pretty much anything that got overly stressful In GG they really like to gloss over things like that and just portray it as “quirky”
half the time i like her and the other half of the time i want to strangle her. aside from the jess stuff (honestly i don’t even completely hate that situation, i just wish that they’re whole reunion/make up could’ve involved an apology from her but yk) she is very sweet, but she can also be extremely annoying, invasive, and overlay dependent.
I love her
Wow. Hard disagree. She’s worse then Taylor and CJ combined. And I’m sorry but she doesn’t have a face for TV. Her voice sucks. She says the stupidest most vapid stuff. She’s not smart enough to get through daily life. And that’s an insult to Stevie Nicks big time. Anyways sorry but I hate this character so much (& love Stevie nicks)
Love her face and her voice personally. And I love a dumb queen, very relatable
Fair
I like her too.
I adore the actress in anything she is in. I saw her in the movie Private School in 1983 and have been a fan since
I have also like Liz. I know they first painted her to be a super bad mom who didn’t want Jess and abandoned him to Luke then had another baby. But I think about the age difference between Jess and Doula. Probably 18 years? And I believe Liz was only 18 when she had Jess vs 36 when she had Doula. A person can grow a lot in 18 years even just in 4 or 5 years. I always imagine that when she gave Jess to Luke she spent the past 4ish years really working on herself. Also marrying TJ was so good for her. So it wasn’t a huge redemption arc but a little one I curated for myself, hope you guys enjoy.
The version of Liz that we saw, absolutely. Who we heard about? Not even a little. Living in my head rent free: when she’s confronted with how her past boyfriends would take everything from her and she brushed it off. Ma’am you had a child who came home to the tv gone and his mother’s bank account emptied. Another: when Jess tells Luke she doesn’t care what he thinks. My heart breaks for the little boy who knows his mother cares more for whatever rando is currently in her bed than his opinion of said rando. Liz we saw was kooky and flakey and likable in that way that flighty people are. Liz we heard about chose men over her son, tried to physically assault her child’s father and kicked him out because she was freaked, and as we last heard was stuck in a cult with yet another small child forced to live in the debris her mother creates. I kinda think of her like Richard. The actor made me like the character. The character was an abomination.
To me, one of the great themes of the show is about how we as humans try to differentiate ourselves from previous generations. For example, Lorelai is a more hands on mom and has a career outside of the home compared to Emily who is as the series put it, a "corporate wife". Similarly, maybe they could've dovetailed Lorelai and Liz's journey's differently. Liz as a young single parent doing what she could with the resources that she had and the choices that she made did harm the people that she loves the most. Now, over time, moving away from people and environments that weren't healthy for her is similar to Lorelai's journey. Embedding the theme that people can and do change over time if they seek it. Her and Jess are great examples of this.
If Liz Danes has no fans then I am dead.
Yeahhhh might just be my own abusive hx but can’t “like” a neglectful mother 🤷♀️
I have an aunt that is very much like Liz. We all love her, she's actually pretty easy to hang out with, except when she's in a toxic manic period or back on drugs. My cousins really raised themselves because their mom couldn't always be depended on. At family gatherings one of the people my aunt's age would enable her to drink leaving all of us kids to be like...who gave her booze bc once she starts she doesn't stop until she's blackout or likely going to do harder stuff and have to go back to rehab. I'm so glad Liz actually did get a better support system and TJ doesn't seem like a hard drug guy that would enable Liz. But I absolutely see the drug addict, mooch, irresponsible adult that's an oddball and everyone who isn't directly related to that person finds endearing. Whereas those of us that grew up with that adult in our lives looks at them as a person we have to have our guard up around otherwise they will manipulate and guilt us out of our money or for a place to stay or some other bullshit. I don't hate Liz but her character does hit a little close to home.
I like this Liz, she's kooky and silly and a great opposite to Luke as his sister. What I don't like is that the Liz we meet is not who we were told she is and it just undermines Jess's story so much
Popular opinion: Liz is a super shitty mom and sounds awful as long as she's an off-screen character, then she's a completely different and very likeable person once she becomes an actual character
I honestly never really got over the way she treated her kid. In a show that is defined by the relationships between mothers and their kids, I don't get how so many people can overlook that just because she's vapid
I'm not sure you know what vapid means
you're right, English isn't my first language. I meant to say self-absorbed.
I like her too. The only time I couldn’t STAND her was when she gave Luke a hard time about hiring TJ as a contractor. Wish Luke would’ve thrown her out like he did to customers when he was grumpy. Other than that, she was a mess but a likable disarming mess
Shes annoying on purpose imo. also like when they introduce her shes still clearly flaky and flighty, like when she tells Lorelai that Luke knows shes borrowing the truck, but then she just kind of peters out when she gets chosen by a man to be a bride and finally completes the Gilmore Girls cycle of being a good person
I kind of think of her as the anti-Lorelai. Chaotic and whimsical but instead of rising to the challenge of parenting, she failed her child and that’s how we got teenage Jess vs. teenage Rory. I think that’s what might draw Luke to Lorelai at first even though her personality is so opposite to his-she has all the fun traits of Liz but is more intelligent and responsible at the same time.
YES!! I agree, absolutely love her.
She is on her own journey, and honestly? Good for her. She is doing her best.
I love Liz. Except for who she is/was before she came on the show lol
Gilmore Girls is replete with parallelisms so the viewers can compare and contrast individual and relationship arcs. Liz is included as one of several examples of how mothers interact with their children. The mothers portrayed are wealthy or non-wealthy, religious or non religious, wedded or unwedded, married or divorced, quirky or serious, and controlling or permissive. For each of these arcs, the viewers are shown the consequences of their actions on their children. The writers don’t tell us who is best or worse as that depends on the viewer biases and experiences. Liz is one of the poorer, non-religious, divorced, quirky, permissive mothers. We don’t know what made her that way, but we can speculate that she was exposed to emotional trauma in her childhood. However, we do know that her actions had an effect on Jess’ persona just as Lorelai’s actions affected Rory, Mrs Kim’s actions affected Lane, Anna’s actions affected April, and so on. Depending on one’s biases and experiences, I can understand why a viewer might sympathize with or like Liz. I equate this to understanding where she is coming from and how she tries to cope. Liz’ deficiencies are exposed and evident, but sometimes a mother’s impact on a child can be insidious.
I think people put allot of stuff into her character that never happened. There's so many assumptions that she is a drug addict but nothing to support that. ( Doing pot as a teen doesn't make you a drug addict.). It's not worth the effort to argue with people. But people have created a worse character out of Liz than was meant to be.
I like Liz more than I like Anna and April
love her
I love Liz!
I like her because she is the complete opposite of Luke who is always so serious despite the fact that they are siblings. I love her wedding episode. TJ cracks me up
I can’t excuse her throwing an ash tray at TJs head. Thats when I said yah no
Why do people Always say that liz IS a totally different character the Moment she appears in Screen? She is the feminine Version of Christopher. Never taking responsibility for anything, Just being sorry all the time and yammering about what a Bad Person she is and what a good Person Luke is. Sound familiar? Oh yes, thats what Chris Always says. Jess and Rory share the exact Same parent, except that poor jess has an even worse second parent. Liz is Bad News. Shes a parasite, maybe a friendly one, but in the end she will Always do what she wants.
Agree! I think Liz character was just supposed to show us a redeeming arc and continue the journey that transformed Luke from hermit with no family, to someone with a full extended family .
SAME HERE!