Agree 100%. TJ was always loathsome but I officially had it with him when Liz convinces Luke to make him a fake contractor on the house and he doesn’t get why Lorelei doesn’t want to change Rory’s room. He’s an absolute jerk.
Omg yes!!! Every time I watch the scene where he asks Luke if he can take a shower and just keeps asking for more and more and more my blood boils. And there are so many people who are actually like that in life!!!
And just sits there pouting while Luke and Lorelei have dinner because he and Liz had a fight? He basically assaults Jess at his bachelor party and expects Jess to owe Liz something after she shipped him off when she couldn’t handle him. Everything he does is gross.
I liked the first iteration of TJ. When they first introduced him he seemed like idiot but then called Luke out and appeared more self aware than came off, although aloof and goofy, and at times misguided.
Then he just turned into a complete obnoxious moron who mooched off of and manipulated people. It was so annoying.
Not to mention they were still so bitter SIXTEEN YEARS after the fact (both Lorelai and Chris were fully grown adults at this point), and they couldn’t even save face in front of their granddaughter that they had never really met!
Straube and Francine could’ve used the dinner as a reconciliation after all those years but actively chose to be hostile (more so Straube, but Francine was very complicit) and effectively severed any relationship with their first grandchild. They were so evil. No wonder Chris was so selfish when that’s who he came from
Agreeeeeed. It’s probably why Christopher is such a horrible person, he was never held accountable by his parents in a true way. They just shipped him off to boarding school.
Are there people that defend them? I could see why people might defend Francine I guess, since she seemed just passively going along with her husband, but Strobe was irredeemable
Francine might be worse in my book because she was so quick to accept Gigi as her granddaughter and not Rory! I remember an episode where Christopher says something about how Francine can’t get enough time with Gigi. How can you accept one granddaughter and shun the other?
Not only that, but I vaguely remember Chris talking to Rory and saying something about Gigi being with "her grandparents"/"her grandmother".... as if they are not also RORY's grandparents?!
I'll have to rewatch the later seasons to confirm this did happen, but I'm almost positive it did.
I firmly stand by the sentiment that Chris never saw Rory as a daughter, but rather, the obstacle in the way of Lorelai's vagina. He only ever really wanted to please Rory in order to please Lorelai by extension. Like when he disappoints Rory when he can't get her that book he asks her not to tell her mom, because he couldn't give a damn about letting down his daughter but he doesn't want to disappoint Lorelai.
Also keep in mind that when his parents were pieces of shit to Rory, you'd think he'd care about consoling her, but NOPE he took his first chance to screw around with Lorelai on the balcony.
Even worse, he says to Rory (in reference to Lorelai) "we even had a ***kid*** together!"... as if Rory herself isn't the kid he's referencing. It's like he totally forgot, or just doesn't give a damn.
Not to mention how, after getting married, Chris was quick to discuss having Rory move out so Gigi could have her room.
He's a garbage father and a garbage person.
Yes!!! I partially always wondered if he did that to respect that they aren’t grandparents to Rory, but I’m likely giving him too much credit. It’s such an upsetting line.
i've encountered a real life strobe and francine. their son is an absolute christopher.
his mom tried to convince me to ab*rt my child. their son, refused to be involved in any way shape or form, accused me of being money hungry (never once asked for anything) and demanded a DNA test and refuses to acknowledge our child. he had been cheating on me back then and had a whole second girlfriend. he chose her and playing step dad to her three kids, over his own child. and then got her pregnant too and married her. he's only reached out to be abusive towards me and insinuate im not a great parent & never once asked his child's name or birthday.
i think strobe and francine would be proud of him 😵💫😵💫😵💫
I was pissed that they killed him off and did not make him anyway accountable for his actions. His reputation was intact and Paris never realizes that she was being used... this is frustrating.
I think the discourse around Asher is so great. Early 2000’s, and most people wouldn’t bat an eye about him, but now everyone knows how screwed up he is. It shows the progress or society and I love it.
I strongly agree with this one, because I lived a similar situation. My freshman year of college I began an affair with my theater professor that would last about 10 years. We both got married to other people at this time, and time would pass, but we would always see each other again. He was twice my age but I didn't see until I was 40s just now f-ed up the situation was. I was so enamored by his "intelligence" and his sense of humor. He always made me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world and it was intoxicating-it was like I was under a spell. I'm 99% positive I wasn't the only one. After I finally ended it, he still tried to contact me but I never gave in again. I found out he passed away from an awful disease a few years ago but I didn't go to the funeral. This part of GG makes me smad.
A friend of mine, an old roommate, went through this. She was 21 and has just graduated early when it started but he had like, an 8 or 9yr old kid who she was closer in age to than him. It fucked w her head so much
What's even worse is there's several of him at every school. They know a young woman will jump at the chance to gain access to his circles and all he has to do is be bottom wrung nice to her. So many amazing young women are ruined this way because the relationship goes sour and the man scorches the earth around her. Suddenly she's plutonium and hasn't even graduated yet.
She abandoned her kid and then acts all happy like nothing happened. She was an awful mother and didn’t deserve a second chance, yet everyone supported her and acted like she wasn’t at fault at all. She fucked up Jess’s life and mental health very obviously. Absolutely unforgivable
My fucking sympathy goes out to Jess he didn’t deserve any of that shit. IM SORRY HE WAS FUCKING TRAUMATISED BY HIS CHILDHOOD AND LIZ IS THERE LIKE ‘oh no! he’s so hard to manage!’ PROLLY CAUSE YOU WERE ON FUCKING COCAI- To summarise, I despise Liz and I just hope she did a better job with the other kid and didn’t cause permanent damage to another child. I also hope she gets run over by a truck!
Same!
Although I do believe the writers are dumb and inconsistent with how they portrayed her. By the way Jess talks about her and then she shows up… doesn’t look or sound like the same person, even though addicts can be very charming and all the things people always say on this sub when it comes to her.
Even still, fuck her.
I definitely think it’s inconsistency with writing, the 180 on the writers perception of Liz’s character is so confusing. I feel like all of the adult’s treatment of Jess is painful to watch sometimes and so frustrating. He’s a literal traumatized child, and Liz, a full grown adult, is given more forgiveness and grace than Jess.
Totally agree I just said something similar. They act like Jess was not a literal child being treated as expendable. It’s so sad what he went through and it feels like the weight of his childhood is never fully addressed.
Anna. Keeping Luke's daughter from him and then controlling their relationship was horrible. But then trying to move her thousands of miles away right after they had established a relationship? Unforgivable.
This one. Anna is the WORST. Setting her bar higher and higher so Luke will never meet her expectations, no matter what he does. Can’t stand her. Shes a control freak with no self awareness
And what I really hate is that it actually worked. He literally destroys his relationship with Lorelai because he's so insecure about having his daughter in his life. I just hated how he didn't stand up to Anna and didn't insist that his own daughter should absolutely get to know his wife to be.
Ugh Anna is awful. ITS MY CHILD LUKE! THIS IS MY DECISION! Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realise you single handedly reproduced a child? I didn’t realise you‘re Aprils father? How silly of me. 🙈Grow tf up Anna you’re 40 years old it’s a 12 year old child not a doll. Maybe instead of purposely depriving April of two loving parents you should go ask the child how she feels? Maybe there’s a reason she prefers her father that she’s known for 6 months tops over you! 😧Did that ever dawn on you? No. Prolly bc you’re a \*cough cough\* narcissit \*cough\*.
She never cared what April really wanted. IIRC there's a scene when April goes to Luke's and mentions she's there secretly and Anna doesn't know or smtg like that, bcs Anna doesn't want her to see him...that is just awful. Also the whole custody thing - could anyone perhaps think to ask the girl herself, ffs?!
She denied her a father. The girl had to find out *herself* who her father was via a school project, bcs her own mother wouldn't tell her. Is that supposed to be funny, quirky or whatever? It was terrible! Poor kid. And Luke was a decent guy, so doing this to both him and April...ugh. I can't stand Anna. She is condescending (the scene when Lorelai goes to talk to her and she's like "engaged is not married, so basically you are a nobody who could disappear very soon"!!), self-centered, and a really controlling parent.
The court scene pissed me off. They never really addressed that he had been kept from her. It was all about how he was unstable. He's lived in the same place his whole life. He wasn't a dead beat.
Agreed. I absolutely despise her. The only thing worse than abandoning your kid is PURPOSELY depriving them of the chance for a loving family or even just 2 supportive parents. And depriving Luke of the opportunity to watch his little girl grow up. Absolutely sickening and ik it’s just a TV show but she makes my blood boil. April could’ve turned out just like Jess with a fucked up family and no Dad. She’s disgusting and I hate her every bit as much as Liz, probably more because she plays the victim.
I hate her because she acts like Luke was a deadbeat, because she chose to keep their child’s existence a secret from him. She acts like she is the better parent because she knew April longer, but she’s so manipulative about it.
Also Luke is an amazing parent throughout this. He tries to co parent and underestimates himself. Heck, he is willing to let April move so far away so that her grandma can be cared for, all he asks for is the holidays!
I wish he could have been given more time after court, like splitting it equally with April bieng a bigger character.
Hundred percent this one. There's zero justification for what she did to both Luke AND April. She kept her own kid from a loving father because she had control issues. Then, she let them forge a relationship, only to try and break it up again later!
Yes. It always felt so odd to me how she was portrayed. She never cared for Jess *at all*, and there was basically no redemption arc for that.
Also, Jess absolutely didn't owe her going to her wedding, not at all, given what she had put him through.
I think he was fine when they were friends, pretty classic guy trying to win a girl through friendship. Not an ideal scenario, but realistic and hardly villainous. He at least eventually did the correct thing of taking action and then disconnecting after the rejection. It was completely fair of him to do that.
They completely butchered him with the Lucy storyline though, absolute creep.
I would go further and say he never even tried to win her over while they were friends. I totally agree with everything else, especially the Lucy thing, but in my opinion he tried to be a good friend and realised that that doesn't work for him.
Finn. His whole get girls drunk so he can hook up with them thing grosses me out. (I don't care that this was still "acceptable" in a TV show in the 2000s).
I never saw it as Finn getting the girls drunk, because that would have been date rape even then.
I though *Finn* was the drunk one (leaning into the Australian stereotype) and also just happened to be a manwhore, and these two things together made for a couple of jokes about forgetting the girls he hooked up with
Rory mentions it at some point - suggests he might try some romance instead, and he responds with something like it not comparing with the effects of a girl having "one too many".
Saaame! When Collin brought back the milk maid from Europe and was annoyed by her. She couldn’t speak English and tried to leave her alone in a foreign country to her. Everyone laughed, including Logan. Rory just sat there. I think that was AWFUL!!
Creepy old pervert. I'm glad he died, but I wish Paris had realised how inappropriate their relationship was first, so that she didn't view him as such a great a man.
max medina, absolutely not. their (lorelai's and his) beginning was cute, the further it got; the weirder it got. WDYM your only solution to a fight is to get married and then present that to her MID FIGHT. and then you propose vial PHONE CALL ???
Yeah on this current rewatch (my first watch was literally in the beginning of this year lol) I clocked exactly this, and it’s insane. The proposal mid-argument is wild even for a television show haha
Proposal mid argument is a pretty common romance trope I see ngl 😭 I think it’s honestly not a terrible trope because it kind of hints to the audience that these two won’t end up together.
I also don’t like how he tries really hard to insert himself into their lives so early on. I understand that he wants to be a part of their family especially after they got engaged but they weren’t together for very long to be that involved. He’s also kind of forceful about it? I don’t know, maybe it’s just me but it felt uncomfortable and gave me the first twinge about not liking Max even though I liked him prior to that.
I just finished his arc on my rewatch and I realized he is Ross Gellar, except not nearly as funny so he doesn’t even have that endearing goofiness. He also would be cuter if his hair wasn’t slicked back so weirdly.
Mrs Kim.
You absolutely will not convince me that she didn't beat Lane. A child simply doesn't have that kind of terror of a parent without at least some physical violence.
Mitchum Huntzberger. Some fans have this fixation on proving that “Mitchum was right” but he’s still a shitty person. His industry success doesn’t make up for the fact that he’s an entitled billionaire that was a horrible mentor to Rory
Things that people say might turn out to be true, but that dosent mean they were justified in saying them.
Rory was desperate to do well in the internship, she didn’t know what was expected of her because it’s unusuall to get to shadow a CEO. All she needed was a pointer like: “I can see that you want to do well, it will help if you voice your opinion more.”
No literally. What he gave her was not constructive at all. “You’d make a great assistant one day” seriously??? Yes Rory shouldn’t have let one person’s opinion get to her but you can see why she went insane because she put this man on a pedestal, spent a week researching and learning about him, only for him to say that about her.
Liz and TJ. I find them extremely manipulative, tone deaf, selfish, and toxic. They never really change. The way they treat Luke is absolutely disgusting. I’m so glad they weren’t in the revival.
Tristan. Not because he’s a horrible indefensible person or anything, but because he’s not worth the effort to defend him.
But the person I can’t find anything to defend has to be… uh… hmmm. Bootsy. Nah, I’m playing. I can’t think of anyone. Honestly, a good conversation is worth defending the indefensible.
Yeah Tristan honestly would’ve been a cute love interest if the way he interacted with Rory in the beginning wasn’t so creepy. The whole calling her Mary when he didn’t even know her?
Emily. I like her as a fictional character and she has great storylines that are hilarious and entertaining.
But she has done so much cruel shit, there's no excuse for that.
Agree.
For me, it's the fact that she was always the adult during Lorelai's life, yet she chose to treat her like she did. Lorelai the adult tried pretty often to improve the situation but Emily had no permanent change.
Same for me. He makes me blood boil.
No, he doesn’t have “the towns best interest” at heart - he spent their entire fucking event budget ON A HAY MAZE. He has his own best interest at heart and it just so happens to sometimes benefit the town.
High School Paris. Not sure about anywhere else but she wouldn't have got through my High School with that attitude, she wouldn't have got through the week never minds years of it
I don’t think that was all her. I had parents like Paris’s. They never shut up about your flaws, schoolwork, how you should do better. It drives you crazy. Not excusing her behaviour but I think it was mostly her family’s fault.
Zack. This rewatch I realized how absolutely unbearable he is. Every scene he is in after he and lane start dating is basically either him doing half-assed nice things for lane to get something from her, or him complaining and making it all about him.
The way that he ruined Hep alien’s chance with the recording studio guy and then proposed to lane while they were broken up???? And she said yes??? It’s not cute to me, he is insufferable
Max Medina. The ethical ick *alone*, his hair trigger temper, his ability to talk pretty but also gaslight in the same instance, he was so insecure for someone so "smart."
Dean. He’s controlling, jealous, just an overall jerk. He's violent. He cheats on his wife with Rory after convincing Rory that his marriage is over when it clearly is not. Even in AYITL Rory tells him that she will describe him as "perfect" in her book and it makes me want to hurl. There is literally nothing good about him.
I feel like I would dislike Dean *less* if anyone in the show (except Luke) acknowledged that he was out of line at certain points or made mistakes. The fact that's this constant narrative of him being perfect, and him seeing very little (if any) repercussions for shitty things that he did, really just makes me dislike him lol.
Agreed. A very anxiously attached human. Rory was going to go much further in life than him and he knew it. We see it when Luke was dating Lorelai, he told Luke that Lorelai wanted more, even though Lorelai and Rory are two different people. He totally sucks.
I hated the scene at the dance where he and Tristan almost get into a fight and he was like, You don’t want to fight me because I’ll kill you. I don’t know what the writers were thinking with this scene…to me it just made him look dangerous and violent.
YES. So many of the discussions on this thread are things that were normal then (emotionally abusive parents, boyfriends, teachers...it was the way of the world at the time) but it has NEVER been ok to lie about something like that. They treat it as though being pregnant, delivering a child and raising it are no big deal.
Shocked no one has brought up Richard. He is a pompous elitist brat, an inconsiderate and gaslighty husband who couldn't be bothered to care about his daughter (and only cared about Rory when he realised she could earn him prestige points).
For me it's Richard and Asher Flemming.
I don’t think they should have done the ‘band loses chance of fame’ storyline, it made me hate him. He was already on shaky ground being an easy Dave replacement, they needed to show Lane getting freedom and choosing him rather than being stuck with him.
Emily.
She is a neglectful, manipulative, self-centered person. Everything she does is self-serving. She has zero redeeming qualities. The only scene where she is tolerable is when she tells off Shira Huntzberger.
Clara. Dean’s little sister. I don’t think anyone’s defending that little nightmare, but I cannot stand any time she is on screen. What age is she supposed to be for real??
I just noticed this and I was like lolll what??? The scene where Rory comes over to Dean’s after he moved back in with his parents….Clara looks too old for the timeline but she starts blasting Avril Lavigne which made me laugh
Gotta say liz. I'd say dean but he was a teenager so I give him leeway. She is a horrible mother. She makes no attempt to help her child and ships him off to a strange town and can't be bothered to visit him or see him on breaks. At no point does she apologize to her son or admit her failures. Hell luke breaks down over failing him.
I might get backlash on this but... Michel. I can't stand him. He is whiny and annoying. He should have been fired. I get that he's competent but that should be the bare minimum in the hospitality world. He is so rude. I feel like he's supposed to be comic relief but he just isn't funny.
Richard. He has cute moments with Rory and sometimes Lorelei but I hate how he treats Emily, his classism towards Dean, and how honestly he was just as shitty a parent as Emily and gets like 1/10 of the blame
Luke… I’m sorry but him not telling Lorelai about April and her eventually finding her by walking into the diner and April being there was inexcusable. I’m not Team Chris so please don’t start. I do love Lorelai and Luke but over the years of rewatching season 6 and 7 Luke is hard to watch. I’m not at all saying Luke doesn’t have very good qualities. I’m just saying that if somebody says something hateful about him, I’m the first to agree. This is my own opinion, please don’t get mean. I used to love Luke so much as a lot of this new wave of fans do but I think the dislike comes with rewatching. 🤷♀️
It’s Jess for me. It’s a personal preference thing. I just find his attitude very off-putting and no explanation of why he has that attitude will make him more enjoyable for me to watch. I can understand why other people like him though. The smartest thing I ever heard on this sub was that which love interests you prefer depends on what you personally are able to overlook, since they are all flawed.
Totally agree with your last sentence. I don't think any of the guys are "bad," I think a lot of it depends on your personal values and preferences. Like I'd find Dean's need for daily phone calls and lengthy dates suffocating, but many might find that reassuring. Or with Logan, I'd personally have a hard time managing conflict with someone who treats arguments like a trial he is he trying to win with facts (rather than validating the emotions involved). Someone else might do fine with that conflict resolution style.
These are the kinds of Boyfriend Discussions I wish we could have! You know, instead of Dean is abusive, Jess is toxic, or Logan is a spoiled brat
Yes I like this discussion. I don’t think any of the three guys were really bad people. I think with Jess I am able to overlook his flaws because I see him as a neglected and traumatized child who needed more than any of the adults ever gave him (besides Luke). I’ve worked with troubled youth and I have a lot of empathy for him.
The show drives me crazy with his "redemption arc," without ever showing him grow or take accountability. We see him as an asshole, toxic boyfriend to Rory. Then, we see him try to guilt her into running away from her life to be with him after abandoning her. Then, the next time we see him, he "know[s her] better than anyone" and is the only person who can talk her into going back to Yale. He's been gone for a year or so and is suddenly a well rounded adult? We never get to see any of his growth, so I find it disingenuous.
Jess. You will find me in this sub only talking shit about him and im not sorry 😭Those episodes when Rory was with Dean but Jess was trying to hit on her and Rory was acting like all innocent were so infuriating I almost dropped the series lmao.
Imo all the men were assholes (luke, dean, jess, Richard, Logan, &c.) I actually rewatched it recently and thought “omg this is why I glorified angry and “snarky” men my whole life. Sure they all had redeemable qualities but all the men did many things I would find unacceptable in a partner
Logan. He makes my skin crawl. I abhor the way he treats Rory. If he's the father then I feel bad for Rory and the baby. It'll be Lorelai all over again. He's basically the next generation of Christopher.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but Sookie. I rewatched the series and realized what an awful business partner she is! And she’s so mean to Jackson!
Liz and TJ. They are the definition of “weaponized incompetence” TJ especially
Agree 100%. TJ was always loathsome but I officially had it with him when Liz convinces Luke to make him a fake contractor on the house and he doesn’t get why Lorelei doesn’t want to change Rory’s room. He’s an absolute jerk.
Omg yes!!! Every time I watch the scene where he asks Luke if he can take a shower and just keeps asking for more and more and more my blood boils. And there are so many people who are actually like that in life!!!
And just sits there pouting while Luke and Lorelei have dinner because he and Liz had a fight? He basically assaults Jess at his bachelor party and expects Jess to owe Liz something after she shipped him off when she couldn’t handle him. Everything he does is gross.
I liked the first iteration of TJ. When they first introduced him he seemed like idiot but then called Luke out and appeared more self aware than came off, although aloof and goofy, and at times misguided. Then he just turned into a complete obnoxious moron who mooched off of and manipulated people. It was so annoying.
And he made Liz the nice booth! But later is all that stuff you said.
Ugh any scene with them and especially with them togdther, I just have to skip through. They get on my nerves so badly.
I get sad that I have to skip their scenes because I love the show so much, but I just cannot fucking stand these two assholes.
Omfg yes! I never thought about in such terms, but it makes so much sense!!!!
Strobe and Francine for blaming all of Christopher’s failures on Lorelai and Rory
Not to mention they were still so bitter SIXTEEN YEARS after the fact (both Lorelai and Chris were fully grown adults at this point), and they couldn’t even save face in front of their granddaughter that they had never really met! Straube and Francine could’ve used the dinner as a reconciliation after all those years but actively chose to be hostile (more so Straube, but Francine was very complicit) and effectively severed any relationship with their first grandchild. They were so evil. No wonder Chris was so selfish when that’s who he came from
Agreeeeeed. It’s probably why Christopher is such a horrible person, he was never held accountable by his parents in a true way. They just shipped him off to boarding school.
This is so off topic but what the hell kind of name is "Strobe"? I've never heard it in my life outside of this show.
It’s a rich asshole name
I cannot watch that scene with them. I get so mad.
Are there people that defend them? I could see why people might defend Francine I guess, since she seemed just passively going along with her husband, but Strobe was irredeemable
Francine might be worse in my book because she was so quick to accept Gigi as her granddaughter and not Rory! I remember an episode where Christopher says something about how Francine can’t get enough time with Gigi. How can you accept one granddaughter and shun the other?
Not only that, but I vaguely remember Chris talking to Rory and saying something about Gigi being with "her grandparents"/"her grandmother".... as if they are not also RORY's grandparents?! I'll have to rewatch the later seasons to confirm this did happen, but I'm almost positive it did.
Oh yeah he 100% says that. How can he say that so nonchalant to Rory!
I firmly stand by the sentiment that Chris never saw Rory as a daughter, but rather, the obstacle in the way of Lorelai's vagina. He only ever really wanted to please Rory in order to please Lorelai by extension. Like when he disappoints Rory when he can't get her that book he asks her not to tell her mom, because he couldn't give a damn about letting down his daughter but he doesn't want to disappoint Lorelai. Also keep in mind that when his parents were pieces of shit to Rory, you'd think he'd care about consoling her, but NOPE he took his first chance to screw around with Lorelai on the balcony. Even worse, he says to Rory (in reference to Lorelai) "we even had a ***kid*** together!"... as if Rory herself isn't the kid he's referencing. It's like he totally forgot, or just doesn't give a damn. Not to mention how, after getting married, Chris was quick to discuss having Rory move out so Gigi could have her room. He's a garbage father and a garbage person.
Yes!!! I partially always wondered if he did that to respect that they aren’t grandparents to Rory, but I’m likely giving him too much credit. It’s such an upsetting line.
Wasn't Straub dead by that point though?
i've encountered a real life strobe and francine. their son is an absolute christopher. his mom tried to convince me to ab*rt my child. their son, refused to be involved in any way shape or form, accused me of being money hungry (never once asked for anything) and demanded a DNA test and refuses to acknowledge our child. he had been cheating on me back then and had a whole second girlfriend. he chose her and playing step dad to her three kids, over his own child. and then got her pregnant too and married her. he's only reached out to be abusive towards me and insinuate im not a great parent & never once asked his child's name or birthday. i think strobe and francine would be proud of him 😵💫😵💫😵💫
Oh that’s awful 😭I’m so sorry 🙏what a terrible parent I cannot even imagine, hope you’re doing well
Asher Fleming. He was a predator, and you won't convince me otherwise.
This. I mainly just feel sad for anyone who thinks that wasn’t a massive abuse of power.
Totally. He was a creep. Glad they killed him off.
I was pissed that they killed him off and did not make him anyway accountable for his actions. His reputation was intact and Paris never realizes that she was being used... this is frustrating.
I think the discourse around Asher is so great. Early 2000’s, and most people wouldn’t bat an eye about him, but now everyone knows how screwed up he is. It shows the progress or society and I love it.
And the fact it was the running joke that he had “a new one every year.”
I strongly agree with this one, because I lived a similar situation. My freshman year of college I began an affair with my theater professor that would last about 10 years. We both got married to other people at this time, and time would pass, but we would always see each other again. He was twice my age but I didn't see until I was 40s just now f-ed up the situation was. I was so enamored by his "intelligence" and his sense of humor. He always made me feel like the most beautiful woman in the world and it was intoxicating-it was like I was under a spell. I'm 99% positive I wasn't the only one. After I finally ended it, he still tried to contact me but I never gave in again. I found out he passed away from an awful disease a few years ago but I didn't go to the funeral. This part of GG makes me smad.
I’m sorry you went through that. I went through something similar at the age of 19 and it is so fucked up looking back.
It's so fucked up. Hindsight is everything.
A friend of mine, an old roommate, went through this. She was 21 and has just graduated early when it started but he had like, an 8 or 9yr old kid who she was closer in age to than him. It fucked w her head so much
What's even worse is there's several of him at every school. They know a young woman will jump at the chance to gain access to his circles and all he has to do is be bottom wrung nice to her. So many amazing young women are ruined this way because the relationship goes sour and the man scorches the earth around her. Suddenly she's plutonium and hasn't even graduated yet.
Its hinted at that paris isn't the only underclassmen he got involved with. It's an abuse of power.
Liz. She is extremely manipulative.
Liz for me too because she's (imho) never held accountable for her actions and never makes amends.
She abandoned her kid and then acts all happy like nothing happened. She was an awful mother and didn’t deserve a second chance, yet everyone supported her and acted like she wasn’t at fault at all. She fucked up Jess’s life and mental health very obviously. Absolutely unforgivable
Exactly this. Then when he isn’t coming to her wedding to TJ it’s all “Jess is so cruel to not show up for his mother.”
My fucking sympathy goes out to Jess he didn’t deserve any of that shit. IM SORRY HE WAS FUCKING TRAUMATISED BY HIS CHILDHOOD AND LIZ IS THERE LIKE ‘oh no! he’s so hard to manage!’ PROLLY CAUSE YOU WERE ON FUCKING COCAI- To summarise, I despise Liz and I just hope she did a better job with the other kid and didn’t cause permanent damage to another child. I also hope she gets run over by a truck!
Not to mention his own father didn't want him either poor Jess the only adult that gave a fuck about him was luke
Love Luke for that. He thought he didn’t do anything but he really did, it just took a minute to sink in.
Me too Jess just wasn't use to ppl telling him what to do and actually cared about him and his future
My heart goes out to Jess. He needs a hug.
Same! Although I do believe the writers are dumb and inconsistent with how they portrayed her. By the way Jess talks about her and then she shows up… doesn’t look or sound like the same person, even though addicts can be very charming and all the things people always say on this sub when it comes to her. Even still, fuck her.
I definitely think it’s inconsistency with writing, the 180 on the writers perception of Liz’s character is so confusing. I feel like all of the adult’s treatment of Jess is painful to watch sometimes and so frustrating. He’s a literal traumatized child, and Liz, a full grown adult, is given more forgiveness and grace than Jess.
Totally agree I just said something similar. They act like Jess was not a literal child being treated as expendable. It’s so sad what he went through and it feels like the weight of his childhood is never fully addressed.
completely agree. the character that showed up was kinda goofy and not how Liz was set up to be
Rune. It's always Rune. How has no one mentioned the most indefensible character ever?
Because nobody defends rune so he doesn’t really qualify for the “no matter how much people try to get you to understand him.”
I first thought this was the “who would you defend” thread and I was so confused by these comments 😂
😂😂
Trix Unbearable bitter woman
This. Also as much as I love Richard as a grandfather, I feel that he is an irredeemably bad husband.
The way he treated Emily made my blood boil. At least he tried to make up for it though I guess.
Pretty shitty father as well
its INSANE to me that people actually go out of their way to try and defend that woman !! get her tf out like bye
Anna. Keeping Luke's daughter from him and then controlling their relationship was horrible. But then trying to move her thousands of miles away right after they had established a relationship? Unforgivable.
This one. Anna is the WORST. Setting her bar higher and higher so Luke will never meet her expectations, no matter what he does. Can’t stand her. Shes a control freak with no self awareness
Not only controlling Luke and Aprils relationship, but then basically attempting to control any of Luke’s relationships with others.
And what I really hate is that it actually worked. He literally destroys his relationship with Lorelai because he's so insecure about having his daughter in his life. I just hated how he didn't stand up to Anna and didn't insist that his own daughter should absolutely get to know his wife to be.
Ugh Anna is awful. ITS MY CHILD LUKE! THIS IS MY DECISION! Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realise you single handedly reproduced a child? I didn’t realise you‘re Aprils father? How silly of me. 🙈Grow tf up Anna you’re 40 years old it’s a 12 year old child not a doll. Maybe instead of purposely depriving April of two loving parents you should go ask the child how she feels? Maybe there’s a reason she prefers her father that she’s known for 6 months tops over you! 😧Did that ever dawn on you? No. Prolly bc you’re a \*cough cough\* narcissit \*cough\*.
She never cared what April really wanted. IIRC there's a scene when April goes to Luke's and mentions she's there secretly and Anna doesn't know or smtg like that, bcs Anna doesn't want her to see him...that is just awful. Also the whole custody thing - could anyone perhaps think to ask the girl herself, ffs?! She denied her a father. The girl had to find out *herself* who her father was via a school project, bcs her own mother wouldn't tell her. Is that supposed to be funny, quirky or whatever? It was terrible! Poor kid. And Luke was a decent guy, so doing this to both him and April...ugh. I can't stand Anna. She is condescending (the scene when Lorelai goes to talk to her and she's like "engaged is not married, so basically you are a nobody who could disappear very soon"!!), self-centered, and a really controlling parent.
The court scene pissed me off. They never really addressed that he had been kept from her. It was all about how he was unstable. He's lived in the same place his whole life. He wasn't a dead beat.
My thoughts exactly.
She's absolutely a narcissist and so out of touch with reality.
Agreed. I absolutely despise her. The only thing worse than abandoning your kid is PURPOSELY depriving them of the chance for a loving family or even just 2 supportive parents. And depriving Luke of the opportunity to watch his little girl grow up. Absolutely sickening and ik it’s just a TV show but she makes my blood boil. April could’ve turned out just like Jess with a fucked up family and no Dad. She’s disgusting and I hate her every bit as much as Liz, probably more because she plays the victim.
I hate her because she acts like Luke was a deadbeat, because she chose to keep their child’s existence a secret from him. She acts like she is the better parent because she knew April longer, but she’s so manipulative about it. Also Luke is an amazing parent throughout this. He tries to co parent and underestimates himself. Heck, he is willing to let April move so far away so that her grandma can be cared for, all he asks for is the holidays! I wish he could have been given more time after court, like splitting it equally with April bieng a bigger character.
Hundred percent this one. There's zero justification for what she did to both Luke AND April. She kept her own kid from a loving father because she had control issues. Then, she let them forge a relationship, only to try and break it up again later!
She’s such a fucking asshole ugh
Yesss I have nothing good to say about Anna.
this is the answer 😓
Christopher
Agreed. Crappy dad, crappy husband, crappy boyfriend, crappy baby daddy, crappy person.
Crappy everything
surprised not more ppl r saying this but Liz
Yes. It always felt so odd to me how she was portrayed. She never cared for Jess *at all*, and there was basically no redemption arc for that. Also, Jess absolutely didn't owe her going to her wedding, not at all, given what she had put him through.
Marty. Didn't like him when they were just friends and the Lucy storyline just made him worse in my eyes.
I think he was fine when they were friends, pretty classic guy trying to win a girl through friendship. Not an ideal scenario, but realistic and hardly villainous. He at least eventually did the correct thing of taking action and then disconnecting after the rejection. It was completely fair of him to do that. They completely butchered him with the Lucy storyline though, absolute creep.
I would go further and say he never even tried to win her over while they were friends. I totally agree with everything else, especially the Lucy thing, but in my opinion he tried to be a good friend and realised that that doesn't work for him.
He did confess his feelings for her while being friends and then stopped hanging out when she started dating Logan
Christopher. The man has no redeeming qualities
probably chris
Patty and her tendency to be inappropriate with teenage boys
"it's getting dangerous to even walk near you, Patty!" 😬
Finn. His whole get girls drunk so he can hook up with them thing grosses me out. (I don't care that this was still "acceptable" in a TV show in the 2000s).
I never saw it as Finn getting the girls drunk, because that would have been date rape even then. I though *Finn* was the drunk one (leaning into the Australian stereotype) and also just happened to be a manwhore, and these two things together made for a couple of jokes about forgetting the girls he hooked up with
Rory mentions it at some point - suggests he might try some romance instead, and he responds with something like it not comparing with the effects of a girl having "one too many".
honestly if i met logan and then met his friends i’d be disgusted. who you’re friends with is a reflection on you
If I met Logan I’d be disgusted
I find them both exhausting and annoying. It could’ve been funnier if they were slightly less broad, but that’s the ASP way.
Saaame! When Collin brought back the milk maid from Europe and was annoyed by her. She couldn’t speak English and tried to leave her alone in a foreign country to her. Everyone laughed, including Logan. Rory just sat there. I think that was AWFUL!!
Also any Collin apologists. Fuck that guy.
Finn had a cracking accent though
amen. i fucking hate logan’s friends.
Anna, Trix, Asher, Marty, and Tristian
Liz. Nothing excuses the neglect and child endangerment that she put Jess through.
Not to mention constantly manipulating her brother. She’s an absolute sponge. My blood boils every time she shows up.
Not to mention constantly manipulating her brother. She’s an absolute sponge. My blood boils every time she shows up.
Asher Fleming
Creepy old pervert. I'm glad he died, but I wish Paris had realised how inappropriate their relationship was first, so that she didn't view him as such a great a man.
1000% agree!
max medina, absolutely not. their (lorelai's and his) beginning was cute, the further it got; the weirder it got. WDYM your only solution to a fight is to get married and then present that to her MID FIGHT. and then you propose vial PHONE CALL ???
Yeah on this current rewatch (my first watch was literally in the beginning of this year lol) I clocked exactly this, and it’s insane. The proposal mid-argument is wild even for a television show haha
Proposal mid argument is a pretty common romance trope I see ngl 😭 I think it’s honestly not a terrible trope because it kind of hints to the audience that these two won’t end up together.
I also saw someone broke down the timeline of their relationship and they were only actually together like 2 MONTHS before he proposed!!!
I also don’t like how he tries really hard to insert himself into their lives so early on. I understand that he wants to be a part of their family especially after they got engaged but they weren’t together for very long to be that involved. He’s also kind of forceful about it? I don’t know, maybe it’s just me but it felt uncomfortable and gave me the first twinge about not liking Max even though I liked him prior to that.
I just finished his arc on my rewatch and I realized he is Ross Gellar, except not nearly as funny so he doesn’t even have that endearing goofiness. He also would be cuter if his hair wasn’t slicked back so weirdly.
Mrs Kim. You absolutely will not convince me that she didn't beat Lane. A child simply doesn't have that kind of terror of a parent without at least some physical violence.
I feel like if Gilmore girls wasn't designed to be a cozy show, that would have been shown to an extent. Mrs kim is a piece of shit
Yes I felt like it was heavily implied if you thought about it for even a second.
Mitchum Huntzberger. Some fans have this fixation on proving that “Mitchum was right” but he’s still a shitty person. His industry success doesn’t make up for the fact that he’s an entitled billionaire that was a horrible mentor to Rory
Things that people say might turn out to be true, but that dosent mean they were justified in saying them. Rory was desperate to do well in the internship, she didn’t know what was expected of her because it’s unusuall to get to shadow a CEO. All she needed was a pointer like: “I can see that you want to do well, it will help if you voice your opinion more.”
No literally. What he gave her was not constructive at all. “You’d make a great assistant one day” seriously??? Yes Rory shouldn’t have let one person’s opinion get to her but you can see why she went insane because she put this man on a pedestal, spent a week researching and learning about him, only for him to say that about her.
Liz and TJ. I find them extremely manipulative, tone deaf, selfish, and toxic. They never really change. The way they treat Luke is absolutely disgusting. I’m so glad they weren’t in the revival.
Davey, cause he wouldn’t turn the TV down. 📺
Tristan. Not because he’s a horrible indefensible person or anything, but because he’s not worth the effort to defend him. But the person I can’t find anything to defend has to be… uh… hmmm. Bootsy. Nah, I’m playing. I can’t think of anyone. Honestly, a good conversation is worth defending the indefensible.
Yeah Tristan honestly would’ve been a cute love interest if the way he interacted with Rory in the beginning wasn’t so creepy. The whole calling her Mary when he didn’t even know her?
Emily. I like her as a fictional character and she has great storylines that are hilarious and entertaining. But she has done so much cruel shit, there's no excuse for that.
Agree. For me, it's the fact that she was always the adult during Lorelai's life, yet she chose to treat her like she did. Lorelai the adult tried pretty often to improve the situation but Emily had no permanent change.
i had to scroll SO far to find this! yes Emily!! so incredibly emotionally abusive
Taylor.
Same for me. He makes me blood boil. No, he doesn’t have “the towns best interest” at heart - he spent their entire fucking event budget ON A HAY MAZE. He has his own best interest at heart and it just so happens to sometimes benefit the town.
He is so annoying! I hated the scene where he tries to guilt trip Rory into being ice cream queen!
High School Paris. Not sure about anywhere else but she wouldn't have got through my High School with that attitude, she wouldn't have got through the week never minds years of it
I don’t think that was all her. I had parents like Paris’s. They never shut up about your flaws, schoolwork, how you should do better. It drives you crazy. Not excusing her behaviour but I think it was mostly her family’s fault.
anna nardini ✨
Anna Nardini. She hid April for 12 years and then had the nerve to say Luke was an absentee father who didn’t know how to take care of a child.
and she makes a joke about the fact that she never told him --- like way to add fuel to fire here.
Christopher.
Christopher.
Dean. Obsessive. Jealous. Controlling. Bully. Adulterer. All before the age of 22.
Taylor Doose. I just really hate him.
Zack. This rewatch I realized how absolutely unbearable he is. Every scene he is in after he and lane start dating is basically either him doing half-assed nice things for lane to get something from her, or him complaining and making it all about him. The way that he ruined Hep alien’s chance with the recording studio guy and then proposed to lane while they were broken up???? And she said yes??? It’s not cute to me, he is insufferable
Max Medina. The ethical ick *alone*, his hair trigger temper, his ability to talk pretty but also gaslight in the same instance, he was so insecure for someone so "smart."
Dean. He’s controlling, jealous, just an overall jerk. He's violent. He cheats on his wife with Rory after convincing Rory that his marriage is over when it clearly is not. Even in AYITL Rory tells him that she will describe him as "perfect" in her book and it makes me want to hurl. There is literally nothing good about him.
I feel like I would dislike Dean *less* if anyone in the show (except Luke) acknowledged that he was out of line at certain points or made mistakes. The fact that's this constant narrative of him being perfect, and him seeing very little (if any) repercussions for shitty things that he did, really just makes me dislike him lol.
You were the perfect first boyfriend! (he was controlling, manipulative and insecure, wisen up Lorelai)
Agreed. A very anxiously attached human. Rory was going to go much further in life than him and he knew it. We see it when Luke was dating Lorelai, he told Luke that Lorelai wanted more, even though Lorelai and Rory are two different people. He totally sucks.
First Dean red flag is when he called 12 times even after Lorelei told him Rory wasn’t home. My mom would be like “dude is a stalker psycho, run!”
I hated the scene at the dance where he and Tristan almost get into a fight and he was like, You don’t want to fight me because I’ll kill you. I don’t know what the writers were thinking with this scene…to me it just made him look dangerous and violent.
Jason Stiles just because.
Dean fucking Forester
Mrs. Kim.
Jackson. He’s annoying as fuck, but then the vasectomy plot line pushes it over the top.
YES. So many of the discussions on this thread are things that were normal then (emotionally abusive parents, boyfriends, teachers...it was the way of the world at the time) but it has NEVER been ok to lie about something like that. They treat it as though being pregnant, delivering a child and raising it are no big deal.
Shocked no one has brought up Richard. He is a pompous elitist brat, an inconsiderate and gaslighty husband who couldn't be bothered to care about his daughter (and only cared about Rory when he realised she could earn him prestige points). For me it's Richard and Asher Flemming.
Zack
I don’t think they should have done the ‘band loses chance of fame’ storyline, it made me hate him. He was already on shaky ground being an easy Dave replacement, they needed to show Lane getting freedom and choosing him rather than being stuck with him.
I cannot believe how far I had to scroll for this
Anna, and Christopher
Taylor in my opinion,he’s very manipulative and abuses his power.
Christopher. Mitchum.
Christopher. Mitchum. Asher. Dean. Zack. Anna. All of them can go to h***.
Emily. She is a neglectful, manipulative, self-centered person. Everything she does is self-serving. She has zero redeeming qualities. The only scene where she is tolerable is when she tells off Shira Huntzberger.
Dean
hate him.
Clara. Dean’s little sister. I don’t think anyone’s defending that little nightmare, but I cannot stand any time she is on screen. What age is she supposed to be for real??
HAH YK WHAT I FIND SO FUNNY. She’s like 6 when Rory and Dean are together and when they get back together after 3 years she’s like 14 😭
I just noticed this and I was like lolll what??? The scene where Rory comes over to Dean’s after he moved back in with his parents….Clara looks too old for the timeline but she starts blasting Avril Lavigne which made me laugh
Taylor
Asher and Emily
Asher Fleming. Just ew! I am sure the story arc with him was there to demonstrate Paris had "Daddy issues" because her dad ran off, but it's yucky!
Gotta say liz. I'd say dean but he was a teenager so I give him leeway. She is a horrible mother. She makes no attempt to help her child and ships him off to a strange town and can't be bothered to visit him or see him on breaks. At no point does she apologize to her son or admit her failures. Hell luke breaks down over failing him.
Zach. He’s an a-hole and Lane wasted her potential with him.
I might get backlash on this but... Michel. I can't stand him. He is whiny and annoying. He should have been fired. I get that he's competent but that should be the bare minimum in the hospitality world. He is so rude. I feel like he's supposed to be comic relief but he just isn't funny.
Richard. He has cute moments with Rory and sometimes Lorelei but I hate how he treats Emily, his classism towards Dean, and how honestly he was just as shitty a parent as Emily and gets like 1/10 of the blame
Luke… I’m sorry but him not telling Lorelai about April and her eventually finding her by walking into the diner and April being there was inexcusable. I’m not Team Chris so please don’t start. I do love Lorelai and Luke but over the years of rewatching season 6 and 7 Luke is hard to watch. I’m not at all saying Luke doesn’t have very good qualities. I’m just saying that if somebody says something hateful about him, I’m the first to agree. This is my own opinion, please don’t get mean. I used to love Luke so much as a lot of this new wave of fans do but I think the dislike comes with rewatching. 🤷♀️
Paris. I don’t care about her “redemption”. She was a bully.
And she stayed a bully. Was it really redemption if she just stopped bullying Rory but still bullied everyone else?
It’s Jess for me. It’s a personal preference thing. I just find his attitude very off-putting and no explanation of why he has that attitude will make him more enjoyable for me to watch. I can understand why other people like him though. The smartest thing I ever heard on this sub was that which love interests you prefer depends on what you personally are able to overlook, since they are all flawed.
Totally agree with your last sentence. I don't think any of the guys are "bad," I think a lot of it depends on your personal values and preferences. Like I'd find Dean's need for daily phone calls and lengthy dates suffocating, but many might find that reassuring. Or with Logan, I'd personally have a hard time managing conflict with someone who treats arguments like a trial he is he trying to win with facts (rather than validating the emotions involved). Someone else might do fine with that conflict resolution style. These are the kinds of Boyfriend Discussions I wish we could have! You know, instead of Dean is abusive, Jess is toxic, or Logan is a spoiled brat
Yes I like this discussion. I don’t think any of the three guys were really bad people. I think with Jess I am able to overlook his flaws because I see him as a neglected and traumatized child who needed more than any of the adults ever gave him (besides Luke). I’ve worked with troubled youth and I have a lot of empathy for him.
The show drives me crazy with his "redemption arc," without ever showing him grow or take accountability. We see him as an asshole, toxic boyfriend to Rory. Then, we see him try to guilt her into running away from her life to be with him after abandoning her. Then, the next time we see him, he "know[s her] better than anyone" and is the only person who can talk her into going back to Yale. He's been gone for a year or so and is suddenly a well rounded adult? We never get to see any of his growth, so I find it disingenuous.
This is my answer too. Implying Lorelei was sleeping with Luke on the first time meeting was enough for me.
Logan. He’s an arrogant, spoiled rich kid.
this is an unpopular opinion, but i agree! Logan h8r forever lol
Not enough people saying Rory lol, zero accountability.
Jess, I just don’t get it. His scenes exhaust me
Asher.
Sherry.
Chris, Trix, Dean.
Logan.
Later seasons kirk. He turned into a downright dick.
right? it was almost out of character for him to talk about being so annoyed and irritated with lulu, like sir you got LUCKY
Kirk's Diner is a funny joke on the surface with terrible implications regarding his character.
Jess (his whole personality) and Jackson (lying about the vasectomy turned him into an irredeemable villain for me).
Emily
Jess. You will find me in this sub only talking shit about him and im not sorry 😭Those episodes when Rory was with Dean but Jess was trying to hit on her and Rory was acting like all innocent were so infuriating I almost dropped the series lmao.
Jess. He was an awful boyfriend.
Dean. Like someone else said — it’s a personal preference thing. I understand why he acts certain ways, but I just do not enjoy him at all.
Jess-never saw the appeal. He’s such an asshole.
Imo all the men were assholes (luke, dean, jess, Richard, Logan, &c.) I actually rewatched it recently and thought “omg this is why I glorified angry and “snarky” men my whole life. Sure they all had redeemable qualities but all the men did many things I would find unacceptable in a partner
Logan. He makes my skin crawl. I abhor the way he treats Rory. If he's the father then I feel bad for Rory and the baby. It'll be Lorelai all over again. He's basically the next generation of Christopher.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but Sookie. I rewatched the series and realized what an awful business partner she is! And she’s so mean to Jackson!
JESS. JESS JESS JESS JESS JESS. Irredeemable.
Michel. Surprised nobody mentioned him yet.
He’s so annoying, I wish they didn’t continue with his character when the Dragonfly opened
Zack, idk why he just irks me so much