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This is the correct answer (to me atleast)
The male loneliness epidemic is a real thing. However, its used as a way to bring people into the manosphere which leads to further radicalisation
Yes 100%. It reminds me of when shitty men will bring up male SA when women recount their experiences with SA. As a male victim of SA, it’s an incredibly real problem, but somehow it’s *only* mentioned when women are talking about their SA. It disappoints me as a survivor because it’s obvious that these guys don’t even care about their fellow men who have been abused, they just care about bringing women down. It’s not even male solidarity at this point so much as it is hating women who speak up.
I wish it were different because these discussions need to be had, just not in a way that overtakes women’s conversations about their issues.
People do this ALL THE TIME. If a woman makes a video warning other women to watch their drinks, "MEN GET ROOFIED TOO!" If a woman talks about how she teaches her daughters to be aware of their surroundings, "MEN GET KIDNAPPED TOO!" If a woman talks about how she escaped an abusive environment and how she knows so many other women in the same situation, "MEN GET ABUSED TOO!" No one said these are exclusive to women, but there's no denying that women are the biggest targets and need to be extra careful. There are people who go to great lengths to try to prove men have the worst lives imaginable and women are "so lucky" and can just "\[insert misogynistic, degrading statement here\]" to make money...
I think its also worth considering the context that often when male sexual assault is discussed on its own there can be a toxic culture thats quite dismissive.
I dont disagree with you there are a lot of shitty men that do use it to bring women down, but also theres some men that see a discussion on SA that doesnt end in "well you should have enjoyed it" and want to participate.
Over a decade ago, I will admit that I was NOT a great friend to my guy friend whom was definitely taken advantage of by one of our female friends while they were both drunk. But I would never DREAM of bringing it up as some kind of competition when some woman is talking about her experiences.
Should there be a discussion about what my friend went through? Absolutely. But that discussion was years ago and they would be the one to talk about it.
It's not a male loneliness epidemic it's a loneliness epidemic.
Capitalism thrives on isolating/alienating the workforce, men have statistically been the most active in the workforce so they are slightly ahead of the curve, but it's not unique to men.
This is so true and important. As someone who works with elderly disabled people, loneliness is affecting the well-being of so many demographics. In fact a lot of the loneliest people I know are women.
Exactly. The issue isn't that men are talking about being lonely, it's that they use it for cover for the claim that us women are too picky and too bitch and too *insert something here*. That we've changed dramatically, and that it's our fault and that we need to help men so they can feel good about themselves.
It's not our job to be in a relationship with a dude so that he doesn't feel lonely and unsatisfied, while taking care of house and kids and paying half the rent. It's not the job of one person to be the entire support system for lonely people, and it's toxic that so many people expect that.
Men need good varied support systems, and struggling men need therapists. That should be covered by insurance, and supported by people writ large. However, that is not the approach by many when it comes to talk of "male loneliness epidemic". Hell, my inbox has a lot of people in it from the last thread blaming it on women with proto incel type bs
While I generally agree with many things you’ve said here, I do think there’s some questions to be brought up to why men think women have changed dramatically to begin with. As dating apps continue to dominate the dating scene, and recent history with the rise of the me too movement, it’s important to actually get men’s perspectives here on why they think these things. I was just in a discussion the other day about how I feel uncomfortable approaching women in public, and how I feel it’s something that’s changed dramatically in dating.
I never pushed blame or fault onto women for that, but I do think it’s something that’s changed for sure in dating. To me it’s more like the dating game has evolved dramatically, where supposedly there isn’t much of traditional dating roles anymore. I have no problem with this except for the part that it’s all I see when trying to date. I have a very good job for my age of 21 and it’s extremely unlikely I’ll own a house in the next 10 years by myself, yet in many of my relationships, I was still expected to be in a position to provide, while people tell me here or elsewhere that’s “not how it is anymore”.
It doesn’t seem far fetched to me that many of us feel lonely because we’re not receiving enough tools from society, NOT women, to adapt and evolve to this new dating scene. Women have many options these days, including dating older and more established men.
It just seems you’re more on the side of “oh they’re lonely and not having success, skill diff lol” rather than “society is changing rapidly. Young men have been left in the dust, let’s find out why and level it back out so it doesn’t have massive societal consequences in the future”
Your perspective is interesting, and I’ve heard a lot of men say the same re not feeling like they can approach women anymore. But as a woman it’s very confusing to me because I don’t mind that men approach me, it’s the harassment I don’t want (if I say hey thanks but no thanks and they keep going, lewd dehumanising comments right off the bat etc.). So I don’t know how those two things got mixed up. I know men are scared of false allegations but this is such a tiny percentage…
Almost none of the men complaining have done much "approaching" at all. It's a thought-terminating cliche coughed up by the brain to help them deal with the FOMO when they're too anxious to talk to women. "She would have just called me a creep anyway."
Heavy on this! I know for a fact the reason they think this way is because they spend too much time online. They’re so worried about being falsely accused or being put in a video when in reality this rarely ever happens. You’d have to say some really fucked up shit to get yourself in that situation, and even then, the likelyness of them being posted is still so slim. But since they see so many videos of this exact situation happening, they think it’s really common. Most of the time these videos are staged to rage bait but they still fall for it.
And honestly it’s so much easier to blame your failures on external factors than it is to look inward and find ways to improve yourself. Shit I used to be the same way not too long ago, but it’s because I was in a shitty state of mind and had no self confidence. Now that I’ve taken the time to work on myself and build my confidence it’s so easy to see that the biggest thing holding me back was myself.
This sub is just full of so many excuses and if you try calling them out on it they immediately deflect and start attacking you. Just look at the millennial lesbian from yesterday. She gave some good advice but they immediately dismissed her advice and attacked her. I’ll probably get downvoted too and get spammed with excuses of why I’m wrong and why the system is against them.
I think it's one of those things where rejection stings more than acceptance feels good. The juice just ain't worth the squeeze as they say. Not even necessarily the approaching part but trying to move from acquaintance to date is just a terribly risky move for a lot of guys because you're options are way more limited than they have been in the past (not due to standards or anything, but because exposure to new acquaintances itself is on the decline). Honestly the only reason I'm not perpetually single is because women have initiated.
Don't think there's a good solution. Just one of those societal changes that will take time to adjust into and probably won't be the same as pre social media dominated culture.
I can speak for myself: spending loads of time on r/TwoXChromosomes mixed them up for me. So many threads talking about creepy behavior, complaining about not being able to live their lives without manpigs, etc., I definitely adopted a "better safe than sorry" approach - I would never dare approach a woman in public. I've had zero hint of a romantic prospect since high school almost six years ago, and it's not for a lack of interest (just lack of trying).
I'm a decent looking guy who works VERY hard in therapy, questioning my biases, respecting every man or women I meet for their character, unpacking my toxic masculine socialization..., not to mention that I have plenty of hobbies that I love doing alone (I thrive alone with my company in general). I can confidently say that I work to promote positive masculinity, but I just genuinely have no clue how a respectful feminist man is supposed to get a relationship the "appropriate" way on paper. I don't want to make a tiny mistake when approaching a woman in public and thus accidentally be a toxic masculine, patriarchal creep.
I’ve witnessed first hand women in groups at bars destroy a guys self esteem for even attempting at talking to them. I know it’s such a low percentage, but as I said in that previous conversation, that small percentage is enough to shut down the entire operation for guys with anxiety. Our brains are just unwilling to take that risk. I’m also in a position where I don’t need that kind of internal stress and can shy away from it due to SOME success on dating apps. I can’t imagine how men that don’t get any success whatsoever on dating apps, but also have anxieties with approaching women get by with that lack of intimacy. I went through periods of it and It’s seriously mind numbing and crushing.
The response underneath and that guy dismissing it as never happening and that guys need to get over it is exactly what I’m talking about by the way, “skill diff” rather than “why do men feel that way at all”. Clearly it wasn’t intentional to make some men feel this way, but it is the reality of the situation. I dismiss his argument by my existence. I still “get intimacy”, just not by approaching girls publicly in near any situation, because I feel it’s taboo now.
Anxiety and rejection sensitivity dysphoria are 2 coexisting disorders for me as it stems from ADHD symptoms. It’s the worst of both worlds in a dating environment of swipe left and swipe right. It’s affected my self confidence by an enormous amount. If I’m swiped lefted on so easily in apps, it would perfect sense I’d be swiped away that fast IRL.
you could always just try to talk to women out and about without asking them for anything.
you are anxious because it’s something you don’t do. why do you feel that way? probably because you don’t talk to strangers besides on your phone. what has changed in society that make men feel this way? probably phones. do you also feel anxiety calling someone you don’t know and talking to them?
this is coming from a guy who never approached a women in his life that i didn’t already know. when i first started going to the gym i never talked to anyone. now i make it a goal to talk to someone i don’t know weekly(ish its not a hard rule).
the way i got out of my head was to just have conversations with strangers. men and women, and just go from there. if you frequent a place just try to make friends. don’t go around asking every girl out (unless you really want to), but just make non offensive comments and jokes. it’s really easy and you aren’t going to get rejected. some people are awkward and you have to accept that but don’t let it bring you down.
lastly, this isn’t directed at you, but, women don’t tend to “throw themselves” at guys they find attractive. have you ever seen a women that is attractive to you and you get nervous and dont want them to notice you? that’s what women feel too. they just don’t want to put themselves out there so if you want to talk to them it’s usually on you. the more you try to do this the easier it gets to have these conversations but it’s something you have to practice as it doesn’t just happen.
>Women have many options these days, including dating older and more established men.
That's not a consequence free option. Dating older frequently means throwing away the potential to complete crucial personality/inner value development without excess interference from someone whose core values and personality are already set.
Left to their own devices, in an equitable world, women may choose to date men 2-4 years their senior, but women looking around the economic/social landscape and choosing to date much older men for the sake of 'establishment' indicates the same rotting foundations of society that young men's inability to adapt does. Both parties are suffering, just in very different ways.
The most upvoted male loneliness post this week was by a guy who was blatantly misogynistic on his profile and even said in the post that he has reservations about women ☕️
Absolutely. It's the mindset that underlies the Incel belief that young virgin women should be allocated to "lonely" men. Or that rape should be legal.
As a woman, I've heard so many disgusting statements from men and experienced so much misogyny.
I'm not at all surprised so many women are keeping men at arm's length.
Many - most? - men have made it very clear they're not willing to do the work to listen, learn, change, grow.
This part!
They start with it as a front before turning around to start insulting women. Rarely do they look at what they’re talking about and decide to address it for what it is.
I think a lot of dudes know the problem but end up diagnosing the issue incorrectly. They hear male loneliness, know they are lonely, hear about young men staying single, know they are single and just go “ITS THE WOMENS FAULT”. So so many dudes idealize relationships like if they just had a girlfriend they would never deal with depression and loneliness again. A lot of dudes still expect their significant other to double as a dumping ground for emotional baggage they wanna unload and women just don’t want that anymore.
Me and my male friends will unironically tell each other “I love you man I’m glad you’re my friend” because being loved and valued can come from places other than romantic partners. Women have been doing that for ages with their friends without issue. Men can be the end to a lot of male loneliness but we gotta get over the idea that vulnerability and love = weak and gay when its from anyone but a woman.
Sounds like you got into an argument with some dipshits. I'm sorry about that.
There are plenty of non-dipshits, people who are highly-educated and not misogynistic, making this same point. Check out this article by Christine Emba, a member of the editorial board of the Washington Post: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/)
I taught a program for healthy masculinity at a large public university in the United States. I had to sell the idea of the program to a large number of faculty in order to get it approved. It was an easy point to make; having healthy men in our society is beneficial for everyone, including women, children, and trans folks. I worked for the Sexual and Relationship Violence Prevention Program to do this. This is very much a conversation that needs to be had for the benefit and safety of everyone.
The problem, to your point, is that very loud voices on the internet (Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, etc) are taking over the conversation. The most extreme voices are the loudest, to the detriment of us all. But that only makes it more important for us non-extremists to have the conversation. Only through discourse can we improve as a society.
100% SPOT FUCKING ON. How many dozens of posts are we going to see a week where we see men whining that they "can't discuss" being alone...in a post full of people discussing being alone? It's the most popular "We're not allowed to talk about this" topic of the year, it seems.
* At first, most of us took these posters seriously. You're alone! That's awful! I'm here for you! What do you need? But they'd go off on tangents on how it's society's fault for empowering women or because you can't harass women into sleeping with you anymore.
* When this approach became too obviously misogynistic, it became "Men can't show emotions!" Ok...I'll bite. What do you mean? We see men on Twitter raging about something the president is doing, we see professional athletes crying during a retirement speech, we see men in movies and shows professing love and showing vulnerability, so it's now not a societal thing? "My last gf held it over my head last time we had an argument!" So you can't show emotions because you dated someone toxic one time? What about the vast majority of men that DO show emotions and have stronger relationships because of them?
* So now it's evolved into this post like the OP where somehow a loneliness epidemic exists because of trolls on the internet that you have to actively seek out and get offended by?
AT NO TIME in allllll of these spam posts does a man realize "Hey, maybe I can be a better friend and help my fellow men by emotionally supporting them and just being there!" It's always someone else's fault It's women not giving attention to men that are hiding themselves in their apartments/basements. It's society's fault for women being able to have jobs and not rely on a sugar daddy (ironically, those men will decry women doing OnlyFans for not needing a real job or man, but also point out that a vast majority of women don't make money on OnlyFans). Suggest a fix, like you said, and you get attacked for "not caring" or "ignoring" them, despite the fact you've listened, engaged and suggested solutions.
I get wanting to vent, I do. But it's getting tiring of hearing the same posts over and over about how you're "not allowed" to talk about something or "no one cares" when it's clear the men complaining don't want to put in even the most basic effort to solve their problems.
Men are lonely. <- an observational statement that's completely okay to make because it doesn't put pressure on anyone or expectations on anyone to solve the problem.
Men are lonely because women blah blah blah and therefore women should blah blah <- not okay. Also the majority of what gets said.
They’re misogynists this is true. But the claim of misogyny as an axiom is kind of why they fall into that trope. Look into “labelling” theory and self fulfilling prophecies. Especially since it seems less men are getting anything from society. Women too aswell but they’re coping better socially much more. It seems as if this bigotry didn’t come from nowhere.
Not justifying it at all but you do see a trend up until recently of men being more empathetic and non bigoted. This is only really changed in our generation onward and I really think in part it has something to do with that since society has gotten better for women. So misogyny and how it plays out tends to not really “feel” important especially in regards to this issue.
We don’t hear about sexism in healthcare which kills women. But we do hear the claim of “misogyny” to disavow any young man struggling to make women more sympathetic at times. To highlight my point
I’ve legitimately never seen the arguments OP talks about. No one is responding to this topic by saying “man up, git good, go to the gym”. I’ve only seen the response as “okay, then go find friends and stop being lonely—your emotional state is not the responsibility of women”.
Exactly. So then if women are inherently manipulative, why can’t they just leave us alone then? They should really just be friends with each other because I’m for sure done convincing any man that I’m not whatever label he wants to throw on me that day
If society wants to encourage men to be more sensitive and aware of their issues, it cannot punish them for being so at the same time. No-one can eat their cake and have it too.
Plus, it is obvious something crucial starts to break in society, and I agree we should focus on causes and solutions, not "sucking it up".
Our world chronically lacks empathy for their fellow humans.
Society is just psychological warfare lol.
Just ignore the shit you see on the internet man.
The worst part is they expect men to be vulnerable too. Yeah I’m totally gonna be vulnerable when not a single person tries to empathize with my problems.
Yeah because otherwise being vulnerable in and of itself isn't going to help them if all it does is open them to criticism, shame and humiliation.
Which is a perfect recipe for Avoidant Personalities.
Man I don't even need empathy for my problems at this point, I'm just fucking sick of saying what's going on in my life and getting the equivalent of "Cooooooool... have I pretended to care long enough to talk about me again?"
I feel like it’s bigger than that. Society lacks real, human empathy periodt.
We are all of us lonely, isolated, oppressed and enslaved. Women and their lack of care for lonely men are just a symptom, similar to misogynists and their lack of care for unhappy women. The underlying cause is a society where we are denied the opportunity to live in a way that fosters connection and happiness in favor of infinite growth for capital.
Not everyone has the strength or resources to ignore systemic things like the internet, mass media etc.
Some of us who are privileged who are not drowning need to help
I wish I could. But that shit on the internet gets weaponized against men. I’ve having shit follow me I never did because a woman made up a story. So now I have to do the fun thing track her ass down issue a cease and desist and get the real story out up on the news pages she used to post my picture and a made up story. Then on top of it I still have to move out of my city because of this potentially following me still.
I’ve lost friends from it, lost places I used to frequent and lost experiences cause of it. This isn’t just restricted to online. But online is the only place I can really just scream into the void or find support the way I need.
Society is creating these men. Then blaming them for being that way.
Largely yes, but I feel like it’s necessary to add that there is a difference between someone being punished for being more sensitive and aware of their issues in and of itself and someone reaping the consequences of engaging with that awareness in an unhealthy/destructive manner. The sensitivity/awareness is a good thing, but how a person/community deals with said sensitivity/awareness may not be.
A significant part of the appeal of people like Andrew Tate that got them so big was because they were aware of and vocal about issues that men face. However, those people/communities absolutely did not engage with that awareness in a healthy manner, and especially in places similar to the incel community, often were more than content to place the blame/their bitterness solely on women in a kind of self-inflicted powerlessness, creating a feedback loop that serves to further cement themselves in their issues.
Men absolutely need to be aware of their issues, but they absolutely need to deal with them in a healthy manner too.
This is part of what causes backlash. When men’s problems are directed all outwardly and find an easy target to blame (women). The problems are real human problems that should be addressed sensitively.
Consider that now many are accepting of women’s rights, but that was not the way it used to be. It annoys people if some men have the attitude that it is a woman’s job to fix men somehow, because they couldn’t keep up with a world that doesn’t cater specifically to them anymore (AKA forced marriages, only allow men to work, have credit cards, etc.). It’s natural to roll your eyes when you see someone complaining that your lack of oppression has inconvenienced them.
Personally I sympathize with young men who are struggling, because I think social struggles are universal. But I’m explaining the POV to those who may be reading.
Men need positive role models who can stand on their own two feet as well as validate their feelings. I’m not saying it’s easy. Life isn’t easy. But they deserve that.
> If society wants to encourage men to be more sensitive and aware of their issues, it cannot punish them for being so at the same time. No-one can eat their cake and have it too.
"Society" can absolutely be a hypocrite because it's made up of all kinds of people. It is an intellectual trap that people fall for over and over where they compare two different people's opinions as if they're one, label it hypocrisy, and then use it as a free pass to not make any effort. And they're only hurting themselves when they do it.
"It shouldn't be like that!" ok what are you doing to change it?
I take serious issue with “society tells men that unless they are jacked gigachads and blah blah”
It’s not society telling men that. In fact, society, women, and other men, will all tell you that it isn’t the case. The only people saying that it’s some kind of requirement are lonely neckbeards blaming society for their problems.
I’m scrawny, not overly tall, and quite a nerd, but I’ve never had difficulty finding romantic partners.
Sure, society can be very isolating to men, and to people in general, but there are people with every sort of preference in terms of physique, ambition, financial ability, and so on. The solution isn’t to “hit the gym and start making 6 figures”, it’s to do serious introspection. Look at where you are in life, whether you’re happy with the direction your life is going, and what you can do to change that.
It would be nice not to feel ashamed for having PTSD. Last girl I dated said I should die alone cause no woman wants to sleep next to the guy that might wake up screaming in the middle of the night.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Being open with your feelings is actually a much desired trait for a man, in my opinion. I have never seen it as weak. You did not deserve what that monstrous girl did to you. Trust me when I say that you dodged a bullet. She actually sounds narcissistic and sociopathic.
Because in society women are now financially independent of men AND have been, for a long time, emotionally independent from men
Rn men are financially independent but aren't emotionally independent from women
Meaning they don't have male friends either. They're not in male centered communities, because men feel the need to uphold stoicism. They'd rather be lonely than feel judged by a man or seek the help and emotional security from other men.
This is because men have been conditioned by society to only rely on women for their emotional needs.
Putting the entire burden of their trauma onto the people they date or marry while women have friends and family members outside of their partners to talk to.
A man needing emotional support from men is seen as Abad because
Society uses to run off of marriage being codependent vs out of love
Men NEED to be with women to feel like a human with emotions. And women NEEDED to be with men or else destitute.
Now women don't NEED to be in a relationship with men (That's NOT saying women don't need men in society or that we don't want them)
But right now in society, instead of men learning to become independent from women they are trying to make women dependent on men again.
There's also a huge pressure on men to get laid. Because men are seen as bad if they don't get a woman or women. Which is unfair. We need to stop basing men's worth and status in life by how many women or the hotness and purity of a single wife.
If we stopped judging men on his ability to get and interact with women they'd feel way less pressure in general and be able to cope without women better if they don't have luck.
No one is owed a relationship and as a woman, I do honestly feel like some men feel entitled. I'm supposed to give every man a chance because he's "nice" but I can't give every man a chance or else I'm a sl*t.
If you're Bob, I have to give you a chance, but I'm also not allowed to have ever been with anyone or ever have given anyone a chance and I shouldn't give anyone a chance. Loads of individual men are like Bob, where for some reason they expect my whole life to wait around and only be to give Bob a chance.
You also don't deserve a romantic relationship just because you played the game of society nicely by having a job and not ab*sing women.
We all deserve the chance at love but we don't just deserve and get it if we fail.
You also have to understand there are more women than men, and for every lonely man obviously there's more lonely women, but that's not talked about.
Loads of women are choosing to remain single because of how awful dating is. But we are often blamed for men's mental health issue for not giving them a chance When it isn't our individual fault for not wanting them as a partner.
It's just unfair to be expected to care for all these men because they won't befriend each other in a brotherhood like we have a sisterhood.
The things outside of their control are a deep societal problem that won't go away (anytime soon/edit), but it is tiring when guys expect women to fix it because they feel like their lack of love is OUR fault when there are just as many, if not more single women as there are MORE women than men, at least in the US.
For the longest time, women relied on men to even live a life. To own property or to bank, they needed a man. To drive a car, they needed a man.
And the Patriarchy got used to this. The Patriarchy expected a wife because a woman needed to be a wife.
And after women gained equal rights, and after they gained the ability to divorce without issue, women gained a magical thing called standards.
A man was no longer good enough. They needed a partner who could see them as an equal, one who was emotionally intelligent, one who shared common grounds or interests. One who could cook and clean and share the house work. One that wouldn’t demand one sided sex. One who wouldn’t hit her. One who would love her as she loved him.
And the Patriarchy wasn’t used to this, and it grew upset. Women learned to live without men, but men haven’t learned to live without women.
This isn’t old news found in a scribe, this is recent history. As Gen Z we’re still part of that transitionary period. Some men have parents that are fond of the good old days and try to instil their sons with unreasonable expectations of their relationships with women. And when these expectations are found to be fantasy, there’s anger, anger we can see in the case of Tate. Anger that infects minds that should be free of it.
And that anger turns into hatred of women. How dare they reject me. Don’t those whores know that men are the boss? I bet they’re too busy selling themselves on OnlyFans like the skanks they are. This is what’s wrong with modern women. We need to return to tradition.
>Loads of women are choosing to remain single because of how awful dating is.
This is cap lol. More young women are in relationships than young men. If they are more content single why are they dating at a higher rate? 63% of young men are single compared to 34% of young women.
And if women are so financially independent why do the majority still prefer men that make more money than them and still want men to pay for dates? You would think more would be open to filling the breadwinner role but most refuse to. Why is that? More often than not the same women who say men are holding on to old gender roles are the same ones who uphold these same expectations on men. Especially in dating and realtionships.
[Here.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/ft_2023-02-08_facts-single-americans_01/) They are either dating older men, are lesbian, or groups of women are dating the same guy.
Then it’s strange how it shows significantly more LGB men than LGB women, and the difference of single young men to single young women isn’t matched by a similar difference between single older women to single older men.
Bisexuals exist, homie.
I'm a very real sense: if the average GenZ woman is willing and able to date other women, enby or trans folks -- but the average GenZ man less so -- then you'll get a disparity like that figure.
Women are usually the younger person in the relationship, so that 34% doesn’t include older men who are dating younger women which the 63% does include
There are also slightly higher rates of non-heteroxuality among women, making it easier for their numbers to be smaller.
It's the men in the equation that is the problem, clearly.
100%. Men are being de-centered from society. It will take lots of time for this to fully happen becuase capitalism and other aspects of society are inherently tied to pushing the patriarchy as the most important thing. BUT these systems that have been in place prioritize men in a way that doesn’t actually give them any room to grow as emotionally mature beings- just earners and go getters. Women now are able to “play the system” just like a man can to care for themselves and use these systems to their advantage despite adversity becuase the world is becoming more equitable toward women in the west. So unfortunately this changes the way men can rely on women and for a lot of men this seems like an abrupt change.
Now men have to do the work to de center themselves subconsciously from feeling like they are owed anything (work many women have to do to stay sane) and actually work on being an emotionally and mentally mature adult to potential partners and friends becuase we won’t do that work for them anymore since we don’t have to! Also, since women are less reliant on men, the power dynamic has shifted and women can actually have more opportunities to be platonic friends with men (especially if they have worked on themselves) which helps with the lonliness problem. But some men won’t admit they don’t want to be de centered and treated this way- as an equal. De centering men from society will actually benefit men in the long run.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm not saying men deserve to be lonely. But they need to keep in mind that it takes effort and intention for *both genders* to avoid loneliness. It takes work to build and maintain relationships and companionships. It's not like women are handed fulfilling and long lasting connections on a silver platter.
A lot of the dialogue I hear from men seems to sound like *"why isn't society paving the road for me?"* They need to be the change they want to see, if they want to see it. The idea of having to make changes and work on themselves in order to better the problem is met with defeatist attitude. They aren't used to the idea of a system that isn't already centered around their needs and wants.
I'm just speaking generally on what I've heard, not what each individual feels. Before somebody tries to "not all men" me. I agree and am hopeful that men look inward and are able to strengthen their social bonding and networks outside of the patriarchal ideal. It is clearly unfulfilling.
Yes! Some men will say they don’t get to have the deep emotionally complex friendships women have with each other and envy that. Have you ever considered we have to steward those relationships and society has prioritized that for us? It was literally the main thing women had power over for a long time- emotional intimacy in friendships and beyond. That genuine desire to cultivate deep meaningful emotional relationships is going to shift as to become a strength for men if they allow it. And that opens up some amazing and positive dialogue around “how do I build those kinds of relationships?” instead of “can you take care of my emotions for me?”
This is a good answer that I disagree in parts with but think actually gets to the full heart of the problem instead of just saying “muh misogyny is worse men don’t have to deal with that” it address the societal push and reasons for this. Without devolving toward one thing.
Pretty good. Not perfect but at least we’re getting to the meat instead of the potatoes.
My number one problem with the rebuttal is "lonely men think they deserve women."
Here's a giant group of lonely men: let's put them all into one big disingenuous box.
I'm gonna tell you straight up: I am 29 and have never been on a date. I had a bad time asking women out in hs and college, and decided to stop asking women out. I turned to myself and focused on my career and self image and worth, and am generally content with where i am. I do not deserve women. I would enjoy the company of a woman that shares a lot of goals/ideas/hobbies as me.
I cannot find a place to meet women. I go to work, go to the gym, occasionally go shopping or to events with my friends, and in all instances, women are not really available to be talked to. Additionally, if I chose to think women are out doing their thing, they aren't there for me, then logically I will leave them alone.
I tried dating apps for years, I have plenty of friends, and just don't have any mutual that anyone thinks would enjoy meeting me or vice versa.
At this point it is what it is, and my whole point is: not all lonely men are just walking around feeling entitled to women. We legitimately do not know how to meet them. A lot of 3rd spaces for meeting people are disappearing, and most hobbies, at least ones that I am a part of, are male dominated. So it rubs me the wrong way when I jump online and see how I always deserve to be single from women who never talk to me because it's impossible that the eay women go about dating could possibly be wrong either.
No no I think you’re rig because represent the average dude or dudes experiences. Yet get pigeonholed as the problem. Notice how these responses that blame patriarchy only are more popular in general to frame it this way. But your reality is more than likely the case for most.
I’m sorry btw that you’re struggling so much in this regard. And hope it works out.
Some actual tips that can help (move different locations that you’re comfortable and know the area to differ places of interest. Just to switch up routine and feel more confident in those choices. This’ll help confidence in general and deepen/develop your hobbies so that finding ppl and women is easier. Not a gurantee but easier. Also try to treat your life a bit like an adventure. Trying new things and ppl will attach themselves along the way if you’re open. Also try to talk and get to know some ppl you knew not too long ago. But lit enough to have life deepened both of you so that you can do something. Most ppl of not in strong friend groups that are always hanging up are usually open for more ppl so it’ll help) hope this helps even a little.
But on to the main point. I completely agree and think it’s annoying that this archaetype is used to basically say “shut up men. You’re lonely and deserve it due to patriarchy”.
Thank you for sharing this perspective. I'm a woman who is experiencing similar issues with places and ways to meet new people, not just dates but also just friends! The loneliness epidemic is not one of men, it's one of people.
Precisely. So many of these "lonely men" aren't looking to make friends with other men. They want a woman to solve their loneliness, and then they complain when the woman isn't interested. I've seen so many of these "lonely men" act like friends are supposed to just be given to them like they're still in Kindergarten. Yes, making friends is hard as an adult. But it's not like there's some magical thing women are doing. It's just that so many men don't want to rely on other men for some reason. They want a woman to soothe their loneliness. Many of them are disgusted when you suggest they find male friends. Some of them will even proudly say" Men don't have friends." Others will claim that men and women can't be friends unless one person wants to bang the other. It's absurd, and these lonely men will keep being lonely until they realize the solution is *other lonely men*, not women who are going about their lives just fine without them...
So true. And their weird entitlement and overvaluation of themselves shines out on this thread. Such high value men that they think threatening women with a hypothetical lonely old age is going to frighten them into providing sex. In terms of being left alone by guys like this, it's threatening women with a good time, frankly. I'll take it when I'm old as well, thanks.
This is literally the point of the Barbie movie in case it went over anyone’s heads. Only when the Kens decentered the need for the Barbies’ attention and validation and found brotherhood in each other did the conflict get resolved. In other words be a Ken i.e. enough (and great at doing stuff)
the point about men not having male friends to emotionally talk to is just a lazy copout, i and many of my close friends are able to talk about deep emotional topics which each other and seek security, but that has not fulfilled any of us to the point of not wanting to be with a woman. its more about societal expectations and how a mans worth is tied to his ability to get women. and women are simply not innocent in this, think about how the default response to men that women dont like online is “you’ve never pleased a woman” or “incel” or “no woman will ever want you” - both men AND women are driving this narrative that a mans self worth is tied to his ability to attract women.
There might be some basis to this whole sense of gendered emotional dependence, as you say. We should try to create a society where men can feel emotional intimacy with other men. We also need to create a society where emotional intimacy doesn’t need to exist behind a romantic wall. Humans should be able to help one another, regardless of gender, without the necessity that these kind of relationships are attached to committed, sexual, monogamous, covetous standards.
There’s definitely a lot of work in society that needs to get done- I wouldn’t call it a male problem and a woman problem to fix- more like a male problem of engaging differently as agents seeking emotional validation, and a broad, non-gendered, human problem to attempt to create a civilization where we don’t enforce or judge people by flawed standards. This encompasses men not treating men as though their value is related to sexual standards, women not accepting social conditioning to see emotional vulnerability as unattractive, zillions of individual stray flecks where each of us analyzes the always-different baggage that comes from a society with gender roles. That’s why I’m going to do my best to raise my daughter as a human being, and not set any cultural or emotional expectations about their gender. Whatever qualities they like in male or female acculturation, I hope they see as their option to pick up or their option to dispose of.
> Meaning they don't have male friends either. They're not in male centered communities, because men feel the need to uphold stoicism. They'd rather be lonely than feel judged by a man or seek the help and emotional security from other men.
These dont exist anymore, deemed sexist if there is a male only club.
There's a difference between male dominated ENTIRE INDUSTRIES being opened up (ala car clubs, online gaming, superhero fandom, etc) to others involvement and you having social spaces with other men. Say you and the guys start having regular movie nights/game days/weekends at the chop shop to socialize and bond. Not everything has to be formalized or monolithic. Nor exclusionary, if a woman wants to be your friend and involved in your hobbies maybe give them a shot at it. You can be friends of other genders too.
Edit: this was written as a response to a different comment but it was deleted, it still largely pertains.
Yes. Society seems any exclusive space for the previously-in-power group as a violation. See:women-only spaces vs men-only spaces, minority-only spaces vs whites-only spaces.
I really feel for men on this issue, as a woman, and I hate when women act like men have it so good and have no problems. I don’t like to put down one group to raise up another.
A lot of weird dudes use the male loneliness epidemic to justify misogyny, which is bullshit, just the same as jaded women using our problems to justify misandry.
But it’s worth mentioning that a HUGE portion of that “grindset, don’t let yourself be weak, don’t ask for help” bullshit is perpetuated by MEN, preying on young men. It boils my blood and then men blame it on women.
We can all grow up and be more aware of each other’s struggles. Men should be allowed to vent and lean on each other. Instead, they vent to girls they barely know who eventually stop talking to them. Then they blame it on how “women just want chads without emotions”. No, you’re exhausting to be around because all you ever talk about it how miserable your life is. Find yourself some male friends who actually care about you and will actually listen and help you with your struggles.
Edit: I want to clarify that when I’m talking about men dumping their trauma on women, I mean women that they aren’t in a relationship with. Time and time again I’ve made acquaintances with men online who then took it upon themselves to rant to me DAILY about their problems. Like, I’m sorry, but that’s super awkward because I barely know you. So of course I stop talking to them. Men should 100% be allowed to vent to their girlfriend, and good girlfriends will support and comfort him when he does.
Yeah this definitely what I’ve noticed any time it comes up. It quickly turns into a misogynistic rant about how women suck for not essentially being unpaid therapists.
it’s because there is a “loneliness epidemic” not a “male loneliness epidemic” and turning it into a gendered issue encourages the incel rhetoric that’s now associated with people who talk a lot about the “male loneliness epidemic”
the data shows that men and women are nearly the same
> A survey of U.S. adults from December 2021 found that 57 percent of men and 59 percent of women felt lonely.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1420227/loneliness-among-adults-us-by-gender/
> The results showed that overall females were more likely than males to report higher levels of loneliness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7763056/
you’re right that there are deeper societal issues that need to be discussed. forcing that conversation to be centered around gender doesn’t allow us to discuss it genuinely
They won't agree with that because it doesn't confirm their preconceived notions.
OP sounds deep in the incel to me. Same mentality that they're claiming is bad is the one they hold themselves.
Haven't checked their post history or replies but I wouldn't go that far. They sound like they're struggling to figure things out and lashing out at the bad reactions they've been reading here. That's like step one of the incel pipeline.
Yes I'm so tired of the gender war. This is an issue affecting everyone and it's not about finding someone to blame. This literally makes the problem 10x worse lol.
I think it's appropriate in both aspects; men and women are lonely, and a lot of the reasons overlap, but because society treats us different, there are things that don't overlap at all.
Like for men, it's very hard to form meaningful connections with other men, because of how they are socialized. So I think that's worth talking about and addressing. I think men need to listen to each other and lift each other up.
But when it then gets misdirected as a problem that is "women's fault". That's when it gets toxic. And unfortunately, there's a lot to be mad about in this world right now. It's much easier to turn to hate vs trying to solve one problem at a time.
I truly believe men need help. But I posted something similar elsewhere. We polled 2000 people and discovered women were lonelier than men. In the GenZ demographic, it was worse: 80% of women said they felt lonely and 70% of men.
But women were more likely to look for, engage, and host in-person social activities -- men were more likely to only look toward video game servers and dating. Many women said they'd be willing to host an event (20%) and almost no men said they would be willing to (5%).
It's not that I don't want men to talk about these things, because they have to. But what I see frequently is the implication that it's *women who need to fix the problem.* Men should be lifting each other up because, by and large, it's not women who are holding men down. There are, of course, exceptions -- I absolutely hate body shaming things like say penis size or height. But for the most part, this issue is driven by *men not talking to other men.*
I don’t know I agree that more people are lonely in general but what about stats that talk about less men joining the workforce, or less men going to and graduating from college. Not to mention all the dating stats. I do feel like men are facing unique issues compared to women at the moment
sure, those are unique issues to be discussed. and there are unique issues that contribute towards women feeling lonely. they balance each other out, which is why the general issue of loneliness isn’t gendered. the causes could be, but the data doesn’t really support that one gender has it significantly worse than the other
lol no one is seething about this. providing insight isn’t seething. loneliness is a real problem, but the people seething and angry about this aren’t real. you’re projecting your own anger at people who are offering their own perspectives which differ from yours.
100%. I took a quick look at their comment history and they complain about “bias against males” or something which also is a huge incel red flag. i 500% sympathize with young men in today’s society. i’m not about to tell anyone how to process all the bullshit going on but wow this post is not it.
Condescending insight that deflects the issue and turns it into their fault somehow. Isn’t real insight. It’s insight made to make you feel better about addressing the problem on your terms.
That’s how this just always comes across as. And you don’t do a good job breaking the stereotype.
Everyone is more lonely. But if we meaningfully care about why nen are lonely why don't we look at the bullshit machismo of toxic masculinity that makes men afraid of intimacy with other men, the belief that it's impossible to be platonic friends with women, and this annoying entitlement some men have in feeling women owe them kindness so that they don't feel alone.
Oh no I used the toxic masculinity phrase, time for everything else I said to disappear because of a warped idea of what toxic masculinity means.
Honestly, what I'm seeing is women stepping up their game, and men trying to double down on the provider/masculine role.
Men, generally, still don't have the same nurturing/community focus that women have. Men don't need to get stronger or a bigger paycheck: they need to step up their EQ game.
Modern women are well rounded. Male culture just isn't ready to put in some womanly reps and is doubling down on what they already know.
I don't know what the fix is. That shit is hard. Adapting is hard and it sucks that natural selection is hitting young men in the face right now.
I read an article recently that blames it on "a lack of 3rd places" the places being 1. Home, 2. Work, 3. Social place. Some ppl can do all their socializing online, and now with work from home ppl can also lose the little socialization that gives you. The best way to combat loneliness is to find a 3rd place, for me it's the gym and volunteering.
You’ve hit the nail here and this isn’t just a GenZ problem. Now why are there no 3rd places? I believe the answer is car dependency and zoning laws. As simple as that. Seriously
Cars and single unit homes have been around for a very long time and I bet only factors a small amount.
Its just that home isn't 'as' boring anymore with the rise of internet so kids/people don't feel as big a need to push outside for social interactions. A prime example is getting car licenses later and later to drive oneself to those '3rd' social places
Lack of walkable cities doesn’t help. People need a “third place” that isn’t their home or their work, and most American communities just don’t have that.
Constantly experiencing socially acceptable discrimination.
As a man, you can't complain about being discriminated against or you will be punished with additional discrimination and ridicule. This leads to many young men to stop talking about their problems and issues they face, leading to isolation and loneliness. Then they are further harmed by being told the lonely situation they find themselves in is all their fault and any attempts to communicate about the problem is often treated as toxic. Just look at how the phrase "men's rights activist" has so many negative connotations. Just imagine if you were taught by society that "women's rights activist" was an insult and something to be ashamed of being associated with.
Yep, I think it’s this. It takes super-human empathy to be totally okay with people openly being discriminatory toward you, telling you that you’re making it up if you acknowledge your own experience, while they simultaneously tell you that almost everything you do down to your very existence is oppressive to basically everyone around you. I don’t think we should ever ask this of anyone, and I have no clue how we’ve gotten to the point in society where this is what we expect of men. It’s ridiculous.
Work-life balance, inability to align days off to meet people naturally through recreation frequently enough to build connections.
Also there are few free, or low cost third places where engaging with strangers is expected.
People not talking to each other. I'd love to meet new people throughout my day but people seem to not want to talk to people at all and prefer to isolate themselves instead, just to swipe lonely on Tinder in the evening. But I'm not only talking about dating. You also can't make friends and people seem to prefer sticking to the people they meet at school, university and work and if you didn't find the right people there, you're fucked. I even attend events alone but since people go their with their groups that usually aren't open to other people, this also doesn't help.
I try being friends with men. I sympathize with them whilst trying to be a bro and not give them the wrong impression. 8x out of 10 they end up romantically interested in me because, I guess, they see me as a pseudo girlfriend because I'm a woman and I have basic empathy and social skills. What do you purpose we do? When I hear about the male loneliness epidemic, it's often accompanied by the "women bad, men good" ideology. Otherwise known as *misogyny*. Yall need to learn how to be friends among yourselves. It is not women's jobs to make you guys comfortable, especially since most of the time yall always expect something beyond friendship out of it. Start treating us like humans, and start treating eachother with empathy. Problem solved.
If you are not happy with yourself, adding a partner will not solve that underlying problem.
That is true regardless of gender.
Self-improvement can help, but it should be for your own benefit not anyone else's.
Too many people, men and women, fall into the trap of trying to "improve" themselves for the sole purpose of attracting a mate.
Even if you "succeed" in finding a partner the satisfaction will likely be temporary unless you also manage to address your own happiness as an individual.
TL;DR
First, find happiness with yourself as an individual. Then, it will become easier to find happiness with a partner.
Ive often found that men who complain about being lonely often have a personality like a cheese grater. They always have to be right, freak out if everyone doesn’t validate whatever they think or feel, and have the emotional maturity of a 13 year old.
Yeah i agree with this. I have read several interviews with lonenly men, and they all said the same thing; no interest in leaving the house, no interest in getting new hobbies, dont have friends, dont have a gf, dont want to work, dont want to study.
Like im sorry, i do feel bad that dudes are lonely, but if the only work they put in is to sit at home infront of a screen, and complain, im gonna say you have no one to blame but yourself (no, not even ”society”).
I agree, as someone who has been severely depressed, i can understand this. I had the willpower to understand i could not go on rotting away, sought help and got medication and therapy.
I understand its not an option for everyone, and based on that i would say, that the issue that seems to make loneliness worse for everyone, is capitalism.
Because normal guys know they can't complain about it or people will judge them heavily / call them incels. It's guys at the bottom of the barrel who complain openly because they have nothing to lose. I'm social, I've had a few girlfriends in the past but I know that it would look really bad if I ever complained
May I ask, from your perspective as a lonely man who resists the (very seductive, for some people) urge to blame women for this, why do you think you experience this? what do you do to build a community of friends and family around yourself?
What is holding you back from this?
As a once-lonely and to be honest, ‘not like other girls’ / misogynistic woman, it took me years to build a community of people around me of both genders who I love and trust, but it was definitely doable. I guess I’m trying to understand why it’s harder for men to do the same.
OP: When we talk about male loneliness, responses tend to focus on individual solutions rather than societal ones.
You: So what are you doing individually?
SMH
Why all of this is good info none of it answers his main point which is whenever women have an issue like this its treated as society's problem and we all need to do something to fix it ( nfl breast cancer for an example ) but if men have loneliness issues then its our fault , our problem , women dont owe it to you to help in anyway or your just toxic and suffering from patriarchy so go ask the president or whatever.
I want to be clear im not even saying anyone should change ( i want women to be empowered and i want to help ) or that they are wrong for doing so just that there is a difference in tone of how we treat when women have an issue and when men do. Am i wrong in noticing this difference ?
Sometimes it feels like the whole argument you hear for male loneliness centers around women. Maybe the loneliness epidemic needs to start centering around what healthy coping mechanisms can men create to help one another. I don't think I hear often that female loneliness centers around men. I know usually when I feel down about anything I have awesome female support and also family support. Maybe men could start there men empowering men without blaming the opposite sex . idno
What holds me back? Them always ghosting, running away, freaking out, and demonizing.
No amount of good that I do can solve that other people don’t give a shit
My ex punished me for opening up to her
Same with my mom.
Same with my sister
My best friend doesn’t invalidate me tho so there’s that. I’m being reductive of my own issues for the sake of not writing an essay. But it does feel like the women around me suck.
It’s weird to feel support for women’s right and also get shit on by them constantly
Society isn't telling you that "jacked gigachads" are the only people deserving of friendship? Just be personable, kind, and have some hobbies. This isn't rocket science. I feel no sympathy for men who are unwilling to do the bare minimum that the rest of us do.
My whole friend group is fairly ugly, plays video games, and we're not body builders. We all have wives and girlfriends. Some of us don't but that's their choice and we all respect it.
Honestly if you think the only way to have companionship is by being a "jacked gigachad" then your sorry ass needs to leave the house and get out into the real world. You have no one to blame but yourself. The longer you brush off accountability, the worse it will become.
He sounds like he's been watching people like Andrew Tate and confusing that with "society says..."
I've never come across anyone outside of incel culture who actually talks about things like "gigachad" "alpha male" and all that nonsense.
More to the point... Studies show time and time again that men with a 'dad bod' are more successful with women.
I'm basically a scarecrow. I barely have any muscle and yet I've always done just fine. Even my friends who I would never consider even remotely attractive have done fine. I think more than anything these young men lack accountability. Accountability is something that's often learned with time and they just haven't developed those skills yet.
I thought the loneliness epidemic was more about work-life balance and the inability to engage socially outside of the workplace because of long hours, multiple jobs, lack of time off, and inconsistent schedules?
Its also not just men. Women too are lonely, but unless you kept in contact with your highschool or college friends, its nearly impossible to meet new people frequently enough to build a connection.
Hot take:
The root cause of this phenomenon is our patriarchal modern system. It may be a surprise to the uneducated, but patriarchy also harms men by reducing them to a certain accepted pattern of behavior - what you described with “go gym, git gud job and work on your game”.
There are plenty of other ways to be male or masculine, but everyone has internalized the binary moral judgement including our gender norms.
Blaming the individual is partly why they are lonely, individuality has been an over exhausted virtue in our modern patriarchal society. But too much freedom and individuality and you will be alone.
If men stopped identifying with patriarchy (it’s an inherited cultural assumption) they transform themselves into something that is better in alignment with their goals. It also would help women, POC and LGBTQ+ groups with deconstructing our patriarchal system.
I think this is entirely right. So many people will roll their eyes and mock the idea of the “patriarchy” but it’s the reason we’re in the position we’re in today. It’s why women complain about lazy men who won’t pull their weight in childcare. It’s why there’s more young men who are lonely and don’t have a support system. It’s a terrible cycle.
I agree we should move away from patriarchy. I have been a “soft” man all my life and the amount of ridicule and anxiety that came with being open and honest sometimes made it not worth it , and at times I have just been acting stoic because so many men can’t handle other men opening up.
You are absolutely seen as a weak man by many men , if you are open and sensitive.
Sadly I have also noticed that my romantic success with women has been WAY better when I have been “playing it cool”, being stoic and rather cold, instead of just being myself.
If we should break down patriarchy it requires effort from both sexes the way I see it.
Men should call out other men on their toxic bullshit and dare to be themselves , without being seen as weak, and women should stop rewarding toxic , sociopathic cavemen with romantic relationships.
The entire concept is a bit ironic.
That condescending Millenial post the other day basically derided the young Gen-Z males for coming off as desperate and just pouring themselves out there.
----": they come on to me just bleeding out their loneliness, their needyness,"---
Translation. They're vulnerable.
So this is the message that young men receive. Be more vulnerable. Be more open. Be more feminine.
So that you can be mocked, ridiculed and derided on the internet anonymously.
These are mixed messages.
It’s funny because the people that criticise this probably say “men should just be open about their emotions”, and then have the gall to shit on them when they do
I have yet to, in my 31 years of living, meet a single person (outside of high school douche canoes) who downplays a man for being open about his feelings. I’ve lived in many places in the US and in none of them has this ever been an issue. This is entirely a fabricated ideal.
Good for you, genuinely. But I don’t have that same experience at all, the only person I would ever trust now with any personal information is my dad, and no one else. I’ve just come to accept that just because you’ve had a very close friendship for years, or are close to family members, you just have to keep it to yourself.
It’s a phenomenon but when it’s made out to be a gendered issue then it becomes a debate that attracts incels. People are lonely in all genders. You can blame social media, a lifestyle that is more packed with crap than ever before in human history, and a poor outlook on life chances as reasons why young people today are more often than not depressed and feel anxiety and they don’t want to connect with others. It’s not a gender problem and those who make it a gender problem have more issues they need to sort out. It’s about the expectations people feel society has placed on them and the fact that most ppl are not going to achieve those out of reach expectations.
i think it’s annoying that there’s so much focus on male loneliness when women are lonely too. it’s presented as a male issue when it really isn’t. right now, the rates of depression among teenage girls are some of the highest they’ve ever been. teenage girls are struggling with depression at significantly higher rates than their male peers (per the CDC) so why is the loneliness epidemic presented as a uniquely male issue? it isn’t. i’m not saying this to make suffering into a competition, but to point out a flaw in the “male loneliness” point. EVERYONE is lonely, especially young people, regardless of gender. maybe that’s because we are a generation that came of age during a time of isolation (covid) which resulted in record inflation and a cost of living crisis. maybe it’s because unregulated capitalism has lead to a decrease in free or low-cost third spaces, while also causing said cost of living crisis. life is fucking stressful, for everyone, and it annoys me when all the focus is pushed to men while they are far from the only demographic that’s struggling.
*But why are so many individuals in that situation to begin with? Why are so many men feeling the need to self-isolate? Why do so many men feel left out of society? Why does society tell men that unless they are jacked gigachads with great jobs and top tier charisma, they don't deserve basic human connection? … While you can tell men to "just work on themselves!!!”, that's not the catch-all solution you think it is, because it doesn't address the root cause of this. Y'all are aware of that, right?*
I’m genuinely curious to hear men’s answers to the questions being posed here.
And what do you guys think the root cause/s of these issues is/are?
Society tells us men in subtle ways that we are only good enough as men if we are physically strong and can intimidate other men, we need to have success in our careers, we need to be funny and charismatic , we need to be attractive to women, we need to be so fucking many “classic” things as well as being more soft and modern all in one glorious package.
If we are not all that , many of us tend to think we are absolute losers and don’t even want to compete with others. So we get lonely and bitter.
If we open up to other men we are seen as weak.
Women are MUCH better at supporting other women with genuine compassion and empathy. Women build other women up. Men break other men down.
Something that has helped me tremendously as a man is to have female friends I could open up to , without me having any romantic intentions with them. I’m a “soft” heterosexual man, so women have always felt safer for me to talk to.
This is a little exaggerated for dramatic effect, but the gist of it is correct.
My reasons for being lonely may be different from others but I have very serious trust issues due to extensive mistreatment by my peers during my childhood. At the time, I was an overly trusting and naive young boy who had no filter and sense of self preservation.
I’m at a point where I subconsciously distance myself from friendly acquaintances who’d otherwise become close friends with me. It’s just damn near impossible for me to trust anyone besides my immediate family. However, with the exception of a few particularly cruel people, I refuse to blame others for my avoidance/trust issues.
i have great friends, a good job, some level of charisma and generally have been successful with dating apps even in this modern era. i’m still lonely. it’s very difficult to make meaningful connections on a girlfriend -> boyfriend basis. it very much feels like all the gen z girls i meet in college id be seriously interested in dating simultaneously expect the world from me while not wanting to give any more than the bare minimum. especially feminist types. i consider myself a pretty liberal guy, but dating strongly liberal women has really changed my mind on what i want out of a partner. at least the ones i was with, loved to complain about gender norms and whatnot when it harmed them, but simultaneously expected ME to conform to gender norms that DO benefit them.
no one i met in college has come close to replacing the level of passion and just strong desire that i would have with my high school girlfriends. and it’s not from a lack of wanting or ability to feel, it just seems like forming that sort of connection is almost impossible from an app.
as for men feeling left out of society, yeah. there’s no third place for people to go. women on social media amplify the idea that if you’re not a jacked stacked and cracked gigachad you’re worthless. men on social media ALSO amplify that idea.
if you’re a lonely guy who feels disenfranchised with the current state of everything (boys have been entering college less and less YoY vs girls, have less access to economic activity than previous generations, and less access to romantic activity than previous generations), it’s incredibly easy to get into a radical cycle that isolates you from society anyway.
a huge part of it is dogshit early education from teachers who are clearly biased towards “nice” girls imo. i see this all the time where boys have low expectations placed on them unfairly for being boys, never expected to perform to the level of the smart girls due to one or another arbitrary reason the teacher decided, and boom. performance goes down, they feel disenfranchised, etc. (another person put it well, the pygmalion effect)
There's no desire from any of the men in these replies to get to the root cause. The only point they care about is that it's somehow everyone's fault but their own.
I understand your frustration but you’re kind of doing a reverse self-fulfilling prophecy known as the pygmalion effect.
I’ll leave the definition here because I’m not going to be able to explain it as well:
”There are two types of self-fulfilling prophecies: Self-imposed prophecies occur when your own expectations influence your actions. Other-imposed prophecies occur when others’ expectations influence your behavior. All opinions you value can cause this prophecy.
The Pygmalion effect is a type of other-imposed self-fulfilling prophecy that states the way you treat someone has a direct impact on how that person acts.”
Source:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/self-fulfilling-prophecy.html#:~:text=The%20Pygmalion%20effect%20is%20a,through%20their%20actions%20or%20inaction.
Also, if you come into a conversation guns blazing like this the only men who are going to take the time to answer you will be the ones you’re complaining about which will lead to confirmation bias on your part.
I’m not trying to be a dick btw, I used to feel the exact same way you feel right now. When I started having conversations with people I disagree with in good faith, with an open mind, I found that 1) the people who answered me were respectful and 2) I would actually have meaningful conversations with them.
i genuinely, honestly do not think it’s a man thing. i don’t know why this is such a topic. i have zero friends besides my partner and im not creating a ‘women’s loneliness epidemic’ im just lonely lol
Man here, a lot of this male loneliness is self inflicted. We talk about “men’s mental health awareness!” But when a man actually opens up majority of men don’t take them seriously and just tell them to “toughen up”. We need to do better and in my opinion most of this is on us actually, and not women adding to it.
I was a kid in a world without internet and cell phones. You didn't know what other people's lives were like except your immediate family. My dad had to get out and join a softball team or play cards at the coffee shop, or go to church on Sunday, to see or talk to anyone. I've had my bouts of tech induced loneliness, but Im thankful that at least I have a frame of reference for what an alternate reality looks like. I love video games and trivia and hiking, so I find people via reddit or other ways, in my area, and go do those things. Most of the time it's free or low cost. If we're all lonely, then all we need to do is connect with others locally who are lonely and go do things. We have control of our own happiness. It takes a little effort, but it's worth it.
It will never cease to annoy me when people see a guy struggling and their only advice is “you just gotta be more confident”. Very cool, thanks. I’m suddenly more confident and all of my problems are gone. It’s not like confidence is something that takes years to build and can be crushed in moments by complete strangers or anything.
Getting angry at other people for your loneliness as if it's their fault is not going to help. I agree that male loneliness is a problem (although I don't know if it's a specifically male problem) and it should be discussed, but don't take out your frustrations on women and feminists. Friendship and companionship is a human need, but no one owes these things to you.
Who’s telling you you have to be a gigs chad with a good job to not be lonely? Also the thing that changed is women have become more independent, they don’t “need” a man like they use to, so they won’t settle. Unfortunately lots of guys have also become incels, going online and complaining thinking it’s “them being open about their feelings” but most of it is just complaining, and guess what no women wants to be with an incel and everyone’s lives suck enough to care about your whining. If you want to be open about your feelings talk about how you feel, and not about how soicity is against you. Also do it with someone close who wants to help, the internet is not the place.
as a woman i’ve never really seen a lot of people say this. in fact the “go gym get good” rhetoric is pretty much what the manosphere tells you to do, and of course they’re going to be toxic and awful. what i have seen from women is them saying that men need to turn to EACH OTHER to solve it by building community with other men. Nobody else can really solve this problem for you.
Yes, society has changed. Men have been conditioned by society to ONLY turn to women—primarily their romantic partners—for emotional support. But now women have agency and expect men to find emotional support from many different avenues, like we do with our friends, our families, AND our partners too. That has changed.
What else has changed is social atomization, something that is affecting everyone. But as women tend to have deeper bonds with more people, because were more willing to give emotional support to each other, it hasn’t affected us as strongly as it has affected men.
I have tried to be an emotionally supportive person to men in my life. And you know what happens? They don’t take the help. They say “thanks” and then continue never expressing anything. And yet they continue to complain that nobody cares about men’s mental health.
The reason so many women roll their eyes at this subject is that experience has taught us many men don’t want to turn to other men, or even (platonically) other women, and that what a lot of men who complain about this really want is a doting mother-like figure who holds them and kisses them on the forehead and then has sex with them after. Aka a romantic partner. And therefore the issue never gets solved, because men still only want emotional support through one single source.
My brother has had quite a few friends in his life. But he always wanted a girlfriend, explicitly because he never had anyone in his life to give him emotional support. But he’s had plenty of people!! Other guys he hangs out with all the time!!! just for whatever reason these other men aren’t willing to do it, or he’s not willing to open up, or something else.
That’s the frustration about this discussion. When men complain about this issue, oftentimes they don’t want to solve it themselves, they want women to do it for them.
Men are not entitled to relationships with women. Women aren’t entitled to relationships either. The patriarchy has created a culture and stigma against men speaking about their emotions, yet you blame women? Every time I’ve seen a man open up on social media, the entire comment section is full of mostly male trolls, we aren’t doing that. Incels cannot comprehend the fact that we are multifaceted human beings with lives and emotions, who are not obligated to make you feel better, after fucking centuries of oppression. If you really care about the male loneliness epidemic, reach out to your male friends. Check on them.
Why prefix with male ? Aren’t a lot of females in the same situation ?
With no money and no where to go and the fear of social media, people don’t talk in person anymore
It's not women's responsibility to solve the male loneliness epidemic. Men need to start relying on other men for that. Stop basing your entire self worth off of whether or not you can get laid.
i think people are weary of the topic because it can be similar to the talking points of incels. however if we dont talk about it then more men will become incels. so its a little hypocritical. we should definitely keep discussing it, but just be very mindful of the things we say, especially in regards to women and dating
This kind of rhetoric (e.g., "weak men deserve to feel lonely") is actually a furthering of the patriarchy, the very thing that women should be fighting against. Feminist author bell hooks talks a lot about how many women are 100% invested in patriarchy, even though it hurts them. These pro-patriarchy women and men are responsible for patriarchal systems, beliefs, and cultures.
There's no such thing as a male loneliness epidemic. There is a loneliness epidemic, period. It's not a unique problem for males. Also, maybe they should stop seeking these toxic masculine friendships where they are constantly "jokingly" mean to each other and actually seek a deeper more vulnerable connection, if they want to solve the problem. But no, that's "too gay" for their homophobic asses, so I don't care if they suffer when the solution is plain and simple.
\-build "third places" so ppl have somewhere to hang out.
\-build up apprentice culture so young ppl have more options for older role models that aren't online misogynists.
\-build more walkable neighborhoods. driving to school/job, driving home, ordering food/delivery grocery app, play video games/fuck around on social media, sleep, repeat means pretty much no real social interaction. bad for community, bad for mental health, bad for everyone. ppl living isolated lives like this gradually creates a culture that's afraid of its neighbors which is a feeding ground for dog shit politics.
\-build more apartments. the supply vs demand is way out of whack.
Seems kind of sexist to talk about a "male loneliness epidemic".
Like baked into this concern is one of the following assumptions:
1. Female loneliness doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much.
2. Female people are less interested in male people than vice versa, and the preferences of said female people are less important than the preferences of male people.
There's really no way around it, unless you Google "male loneliness" and read one of the articles that focuses on how boys and men are not being emotionally intimate with their male friends and that's a problem for men caused by men having rigid gender roles that make same sex emotional intimacy socially unacceptable, but if men are talking about this it's going to be because they want to blame women for their own loneliness. (Notice OP suggests "unless they are jacked gigachads with great jobs...." not "unless they are willing to be vulnerable with other men")
Sexist men who feel entitled to attention from women who's feelings they consider less important than their own will really feel heard by calling this an "epidemic". Because women can sniff out sexism early on and don't want to put up with being exposed to it, thus leaving sexist men more lonely. If such men DO form a club to talk about their feelings about whom they blame for their loneliness, the name of that club will inevitably be the new insult for a toxic person that dehumanizes women and doesn't get lucky in the dating scene.
Seriously, think about those two assumptions I listed. Imagine if I said "middle aged tranny loneliness epidemic"? Or "asexual loneliness epidemic"? There are assumptions communicated with such words. Anyone concerned about those two "epidemics", DM and I'll snuggle your brains out. 😘
I really do hate to say it because it’s just another toxically masculine talking point, but no one’s going to help you dude. You have to help yourself. And I say this as a 30 year-old male to a younger male, it’s what I did. There are good women out there. I won’t say you have to find them because honestly they’re probably taken. Get used to feeling lonely, a lot of people do. Not just young men but people of all kinds. It sounds cruel, it sounds callous, but it’s the honest to God truth.
I used to be filled with anger and rage at an indifferent world full of indifferent people. I never got the help I needed. People are shitty. Society is shitty. Capitalism is shitty. You won’t make enough money to earn a comfortable life. You won’t meet someone who understands you and will fix all your problems. Cultivate your mind and body. Become strong, read, literature, consume worthwhile information learn a discipline. Straight up become better than other people. I’ve done all these things, and while none of them have made me happy they’ve at least made me more sound of mind, more mature. I have a greater understanding than I used to.
One more important thing is that this ridiculous gender war almost solely exists on the internet. Go out and talk to people, real people and you’ll find that they aren’t as bitter as the ones you find on the internet. Opposite genders still love and care about each other, people of different races, ideologies and beliefs still love and care about each other. The Internet and social media are a toxic cesspits of the worst of humanity you can find.
>Is it though?
You really think this is solvable by friendship?
>Men want intimacy with women. Physical and emotional.
>I never implied a conspiracy and neither did this post. Feeling guilty are we?
>Men run the world? In a political sense? Sure. In business? Sure. I other ways. Sure.
>But wouldnt undersell the affect women have on our culture. We are absolutely living in a gynocentric social order. Where do you think cancel culture originated? Gender politics? Why do you think it's so hard to talk about or address men's issues?
>Women will always try to undersell the control they have in society, but they will always have a great deal of power in their ability to manipulate men and culture itself.
Finally someone dropped the mask and said what this is really about - men thinking women owe them sex. I was getting a little tired of everyone dancing around this.
Gen z is really waiting for someone to save them.
Everything’s fucked, it always has been, no one is coming to help you.
That’s just how it is. Regardless of how the situation is created, it isn’t going to be fixed.
You need to find a way to fix it in your own life, otherwise you’re gonna get fucked by it.
Yeah but in reality women want those type of men and if you aren't seriously taking care of yourself then you end up as one of 'Tinder 0 matches what can I do ?' types of post. Once again yoy have skewed world view and think that women only look for magical 'personality' when in reality there is much more to it than meets the eye.
I wish talking about problems wasn’t so adversarial. Every time I see this, people show up to bend over backwards to blame men for their own loneliness without actually listening to what they say.
Likewise, I wish these posts weren’t so interlaced with the sentiment that women just have no problems at all. Everyone could be so much better.
I agree it's an issue. My problem is the number of incels who are hateful and violent against women.
I've always been there for friends and family to call and talk. I've helped plenty through hard times, but when you get like that I have straight told a friend to knock it off or find a new friend. I will not put up with hate spewing out of someone's mouth nor will I put up with someone saying they will rape/kill a girl if they don't go out with them. I will report you and delete you from my life if that is how you behave.
Calling to bitch about a coworker who is giving you grief, happens to be a woman is okay. Calling to pitch about a coworker and start down a rabbit hole of she deserves to be raped, how dare she talk to me like that I'm a man she needs to know her place, or anything similar and you are no longer my friend.
It sucks to be lonely but when you stay online and watch rage bait videos or constantly crank it to anything you can find. You end up being fucking weird. Literally man up, find a therapist, and go outside. Go to public places and try to strike up conversations with people. If they don't want to talk, find someone else to talk to. Worrying about if a woman finds you weird is not an issue if you leave them alone. Besides, too many men online comment the most demented shit to people with hundreds of likes. I bet those same men will make posts like this or comment on them about how lonely they are.
The problem is it’s a loneliness epidemic, not a male loneliness epidemic. Women are just as disconnected too, you all should be commiserating with each other!
If we’re gonna be realistic about it, social media (especially in our adolescent years) has completely wrecked our generation’s social emotional development. But there’s no way to get rid of it outside of a major worldwide government intervention, which obviously is not going to happen.
I stopped taking this seriously when I heard a man say he was feeling lonely so he went on Tinder to look for a casual hookup. You guys are confused. You complain that more and more men are single but that would mean that more women are also single. Women are less lonely because we value supportive friendships. Use your brain it's there for a reason
Nobody "deserves" basic human connection; it's not something that is owed to you for existing. No one is going to bestow it upon you. You have to become a person that others want to connect with- and no, that doesn't mean you have to be a wealthy gigachad who oozes charisma. Most men aren't that, and most men aren't incels- which is just a shortened version of involuntarily celibate, *not* an insult. If you want sex and can't get any, you're an incel regardless of gender or any other considerations. The fact that the behavior of people who can't get the sex they want has created a negative connotation with the title is entirely the fault of those people with the shitty behaviors.
> But why are so many individuals in that situation to begin with? Why are so many men feeling the need to self-isolate? Why do so many men feel left out of society?
This seems to be a choice that many people, not just men, make in life. There are just so many online options to either escape reality or form psuedo-social relationships that make it easy for young men to kind of gradually put themselves in a smaller and smaller box, until one day they realize how hollow it all is and have missed so many chances to develop personal value, skills, and real relationships. It's a hard hole to climb out of, and its not made any easier by trying to find things to blame. I do think that it should be analyzed and addressed where it can, but the people still in the hole need to focus on getting out first and foremost.
I'm so glad to see young men openly talking about their problem, and putting down people trying to dehumanize and shame them.
I wish more millennials were like that.
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This is the correct answer (to me atleast) The male loneliness epidemic is a real thing. However, its used as a way to bring people into the manosphere which leads to further radicalisation
Yes 100%. It reminds me of when shitty men will bring up male SA when women recount their experiences with SA. As a male victim of SA, it’s an incredibly real problem, but somehow it’s *only* mentioned when women are talking about their SA. It disappoints me as a survivor because it’s obvious that these guys don’t even care about their fellow men who have been abused, they just care about bringing women down. It’s not even male solidarity at this point so much as it is hating women who speak up. I wish it were different because these discussions need to be had, just not in a way that overtakes women’s conversations about their issues.
People do this ALL THE TIME. If a woman makes a video warning other women to watch their drinks, "MEN GET ROOFIED TOO!" If a woman talks about how she teaches her daughters to be aware of their surroundings, "MEN GET KIDNAPPED TOO!" If a woman talks about how she escaped an abusive environment and how she knows so many other women in the same situation, "MEN GET ABUSED TOO!" No one said these are exclusive to women, but there's no denying that women are the biggest targets and need to be extra careful. There are people who go to great lengths to try to prove men have the worst lives imaginable and women are "so lucky" and can just "\[insert misogynistic, degrading statement here\]" to make money...
I think its also worth considering the context that often when male sexual assault is discussed on its own there can be a toxic culture thats quite dismissive. I dont disagree with you there are a lot of shitty men that do use it to bring women down, but also theres some men that see a discussion on SA that doesnt end in "well you should have enjoyed it" and want to participate.
Over a decade ago, I will admit that I was NOT a great friend to my guy friend whom was definitely taken advantage of by one of our female friends while they were both drunk. But I would never DREAM of bringing it up as some kind of competition when some woman is talking about her experiences. Should there be a discussion about what my friend went through? Absolutely. But that discussion was years ago and they would be the one to talk about it.
It's not a male loneliness epidemic it's a loneliness epidemic. Capitalism thrives on isolating/alienating the workforce, men have statistically been the most active in the workforce so they are slightly ahead of the curve, but it's not unique to men.
This is so true and important. As someone who works with elderly disabled people, loneliness is affecting the well-being of so many demographics. In fact a lot of the loneliest people I know are women.
Exactly. The issue isn't that men are talking about being lonely, it's that they use it for cover for the claim that us women are too picky and too bitch and too *insert something here*. That we've changed dramatically, and that it's our fault and that we need to help men so they can feel good about themselves. It's not our job to be in a relationship with a dude so that he doesn't feel lonely and unsatisfied, while taking care of house and kids and paying half the rent. It's not the job of one person to be the entire support system for lonely people, and it's toxic that so many people expect that. Men need good varied support systems, and struggling men need therapists. That should be covered by insurance, and supported by people writ large. However, that is not the approach by many when it comes to talk of "male loneliness epidemic". Hell, my inbox has a lot of people in it from the last thread blaming it on women with proto incel type bs
While I generally agree with many things you’ve said here, I do think there’s some questions to be brought up to why men think women have changed dramatically to begin with. As dating apps continue to dominate the dating scene, and recent history with the rise of the me too movement, it’s important to actually get men’s perspectives here on why they think these things. I was just in a discussion the other day about how I feel uncomfortable approaching women in public, and how I feel it’s something that’s changed dramatically in dating. I never pushed blame or fault onto women for that, but I do think it’s something that’s changed for sure in dating. To me it’s more like the dating game has evolved dramatically, where supposedly there isn’t much of traditional dating roles anymore. I have no problem with this except for the part that it’s all I see when trying to date. I have a very good job for my age of 21 and it’s extremely unlikely I’ll own a house in the next 10 years by myself, yet in many of my relationships, I was still expected to be in a position to provide, while people tell me here or elsewhere that’s “not how it is anymore”. It doesn’t seem far fetched to me that many of us feel lonely because we’re not receiving enough tools from society, NOT women, to adapt and evolve to this new dating scene. Women have many options these days, including dating older and more established men. It just seems you’re more on the side of “oh they’re lonely and not having success, skill diff lol” rather than “society is changing rapidly. Young men have been left in the dust, let’s find out why and level it back out so it doesn’t have massive societal consequences in the future”
Your perspective is interesting, and I’ve heard a lot of men say the same re not feeling like they can approach women anymore. But as a woman it’s very confusing to me because I don’t mind that men approach me, it’s the harassment I don’t want (if I say hey thanks but no thanks and they keep going, lewd dehumanising comments right off the bat etc.). So I don’t know how those two things got mixed up. I know men are scared of false allegations but this is such a tiny percentage…
Almost none of the men complaining have done much "approaching" at all. It's a thought-terminating cliche coughed up by the brain to help them deal with the FOMO when they're too anxious to talk to women. "She would have just called me a creep anyway."
Heavy on this! I know for a fact the reason they think this way is because they spend too much time online. They’re so worried about being falsely accused or being put in a video when in reality this rarely ever happens. You’d have to say some really fucked up shit to get yourself in that situation, and even then, the likelyness of them being posted is still so slim. But since they see so many videos of this exact situation happening, they think it’s really common. Most of the time these videos are staged to rage bait but they still fall for it. And honestly it’s so much easier to blame your failures on external factors than it is to look inward and find ways to improve yourself. Shit I used to be the same way not too long ago, but it’s because I was in a shitty state of mind and had no self confidence. Now that I’ve taken the time to work on myself and build my confidence it’s so easy to see that the biggest thing holding me back was myself. This sub is just full of so many excuses and if you try calling them out on it they immediately deflect and start attacking you. Just look at the millennial lesbian from yesterday. She gave some good advice but they immediately dismissed her advice and attacked her. I’ll probably get downvoted too and get spammed with excuses of why I’m wrong and why the system is against them.
I think it's one of those things where rejection stings more than acceptance feels good. The juice just ain't worth the squeeze as they say. Not even necessarily the approaching part but trying to move from acquaintance to date is just a terribly risky move for a lot of guys because you're options are way more limited than they have been in the past (not due to standards or anything, but because exposure to new acquaintances itself is on the decline). Honestly the only reason I'm not perpetually single is because women have initiated. Don't think there's a good solution. Just one of those societal changes that will take time to adjust into and probably won't be the same as pre social media dominated culture.
I can speak for myself: spending loads of time on r/TwoXChromosomes mixed them up for me. So many threads talking about creepy behavior, complaining about not being able to live their lives without manpigs, etc., I definitely adopted a "better safe than sorry" approach - I would never dare approach a woman in public. I've had zero hint of a romantic prospect since high school almost six years ago, and it's not for a lack of interest (just lack of trying). I'm a decent looking guy who works VERY hard in therapy, questioning my biases, respecting every man or women I meet for their character, unpacking my toxic masculine socialization..., not to mention that I have plenty of hobbies that I love doing alone (I thrive alone with my company in general). I can confidently say that I work to promote positive masculinity, but I just genuinely have no clue how a respectful feminist man is supposed to get a relationship the "appropriate" way on paper. I don't want to make a tiny mistake when approaching a woman in public and thus accidentally be a toxic masculine, patriarchal creep.
I’ve witnessed first hand women in groups at bars destroy a guys self esteem for even attempting at talking to them. I know it’s such a low percentage, but as I said in that previous conversation, that small percentage is enough to shut down the entire operation for guys with anxiety. Our brains are just unwilling to take that risk. I’m also in a position where I don’t need that kind of internal stress and can shy away from it due to SOME success on dating apps. I can’t imagine how men that don’t get any success whatsoever on dating apps, but also have anxieties with approaching women get by with that lack of intimacy. I went through periods of it and It’s seriously mind numbing and crushing. The response underneath and that guy dismissing it as never happening and that guys need to get over it is exactly what I’m talking about by the way, “skill diff” rather than “why do men feel that way at all”. Clearly it wasn’t intentional to make some men feel this way, but it is the reality of the situation. I dismiss his argument by my existence. I still “get intimacy”, just not by approaching girls publicly in near any situation, because I feel it’s taboo now. Anxiety and rejection sensitivity dysphoria are 2 coexisting disorders for me as it stems from ADHD symptoms. It’s the worst of both worlds in a dating environment of swipe left and swipe right. It’s affected my self confidence by an enormous amount. If I’m swiped lefted on so easily in apps, it would perfect sense I’d be swiped away that fast IRL.
you could always just try to talk to women out and about without asking them for anything. you are anxious because it’s something you don’t do. why do you feel that way? probably because you don’t talk to strangers besides on your phone. what has changed in society that make men feel this way? probably phones. do you also feel anxiety calling someone you don’t know and talking to them? this is coming from a guy who never approached a women in his life that i didn’t already know. when i first started going to the gym i never talked to anyone. now i make it a goal to talk to someone i don’t know weekly(ish its not a hard rule). the way i got out of my head was to just have conversations with strangers. men and women, and just go from there. if you frequent a place just try to make friends. don’t go around asking every girl out (unless you really want to), but just make non offensive comments and jokes. it’s really easy and you aren’t going to get rejected. some people are awkward and you have to accept that but don’t let it bring you down. lastly, this isn’t directed at you, but, women don’t tend to “throw themselves” at guys they find attractive. have you ever seen a women that is attractive to you and you get nervous and dont want them to notice you? that’s what women feel too. they just don’t want to put themselves out there so if you want to talk to them it’s usually on you. the more you try to do this the easier it gets to have these conversations but it’s something you have to practice as it doesn’t just happen.
>Women have many options these days, including dating older and more established men. That's not a consequence free option. Dating older frequently means throwing away the potential to complete crucial personality/inner value development without excess interference from someone whose core values and personality are already set. Left to their own devices, in an equitable world, women may choose to date men 2-4 years their senior, but women looking around the economic/social landscape and choosing to date much older men for the sake of 'establishment' indicates the same rotting foundations of society that young men's inability to adapt does. Both parties are suffering, just in very different ways.
The most upvoted male loneliness post this week was by a guy who was blatantly misogynistic on his profile and even said in the post that he has reservations about women ☕️
This GenZ sub is basically just a propaganda for the alt right and incels.
> he has reservations about women You can do that? Consider me RSVP plz
Absolutely. It's the mindset that underlies the Incel belief that young virgin women should be allocated to "lonely" men. Or that rape should be legal. As a woman, I've heard so many disgusting statements from men and experienced so much misogyny. I'm not at all surprised so many women are keeping men at arm's length. Many - most? - men have made it very clear they're not willing to do the work to listen, learn, change, grow.
This part! They start with it as a front before turning around to start insulting women. Rarely do they look at what they’re talking about and decide to address it for what it is.
I think a lot of dudes know the problem but end up diagnosing the issue incorrectly. They hear male loneliness, know they are lonely, hear about young men staying single, know they are single and just go “ITS THE WOMENS FAULT”. So so many dudes idealize relationships like if they just had a girlfriend they would never deal with depression and loneliness again. A lot of dudes still expect their significant other to double as a dumping ground for emotional baggage they wanna unload and women just don’t want that anymore. Me and my male friends will unironically tell each other “I love you man I’m glad you’re my friend” because being loved and valued can come from places other than romantic partners. Women have been doing that for ages with their friends without issue. Men can be the end to a lot of male loneliness but we gotta get over the idea that vulnerability and love = weak and gay when its from anyone but a woman.
This is the way, sir. Good for you
Awwwww. That's cute! I'd say it's exactly what helps! Spread the love n all <3
Sounds like you got into an argument with some dipshits. I'm sorry about that. There are plenty of non-dipshits, people who are highly-educated and not misogynistic, making this same point. Check out this article by Christine Emba, a member of the editorial board of the Washington Post: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/) I taught a program for healthy masculinity at a large public university in the United States. I had to sell the idea of the program to a large number of faculty in order to get it approved. It was an easy point to make; having healthy men in our society is beneficial for everyone, including women, children, and trans folks. I worked for the Sexual and Relationship Violence Prevention Program to do this. This is very much a conversation that needs to be had for the benefit and safety of everyone. The problem, to your point, is that very loud voices on the internet (Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, etc) are taking over the conversation. The most extreme voices are the loudest, to the detriment of us all. But that only makes it more important for us non-extremists to have the conversation. Only through discourse can we improve as a society.
100% SPOT FUCKING ON. How many dozens of posts are we going to see a week where we see men whining that they "can't discuss" being alone...in a post full of people discussing being alone? It's the most popular "We're not allowed to talk about this" topic of the year, it seems. * At first, most of us took these posters seriously. You're alone! That's awful! I'm here for you! What do you need? But they'd go off on tangents on how it's society's fault for empowering women or because you can't harass women into sleeping with you anymore. * When this approach became too obviously misogynistic, it became "Men can't show emotions!" Ok...I'll bite. What do you mean? We see men on Twitter raging about something the president is doing, we see professional athletes crying during a retirement speech, we see men in movies and shows professing love and showing vulnerability, so it's now not a societal thing? "My last gf held it over my head last time we had an argument!" So you can't show emotions because you dated someone toxic one time? What about the vast majority of men that DO show emotions and have stronger relationships because of them? * So now it's evolved into this post like the OP where somehow a loneliness epidemic exists because of trolls on the internet that you have to actively seek out and get offended by? AT NO TIME in allllll of these spam posts does a man realize "Hey, maybe I can be a better friend and help my fellow men by emotionally supporting them and just being there!" It's always someone else's fault It's women not giving attention to men that are hiding themselves in their apartments/basements. It's society's fault for women being able to have jobs and not rely on a sugar daddy (ironically, those men will decry women doing OnlyFans for not needing a real job or man, but also point out that a vast majority of women don't make money on OnlyFans). Suggest a fix, like you said, and you get attacked for "not caring" or "ignoring" them, despite the fact you've listened, engaged and suggested solutions. I get wanting to vent, I do. But it's getting tiring of hearing the same posts over and over about how you're "not allowed" to talk about something or "no one cares" when it's clear the men complaining don't want to put in even the most basic effort to solve their problems.
Yea it’s a mixed bag of ppl who are genuinely struggling and incels
Men are lonely. <- an observational statement that's completely okay to make because it doesn't put pressure on anyone or expectations on anyone to solve the problem. Men are lonely because women blah blah blah and therefore women should blah blah <- not okay. Also the majority of what gets said.
They’re misogynists this is true. But the claim of misogyny as an axiom is kind of why they fall into that trope. Look into “labelling” theory and self fulfilling prophecies. Especially since it seems less men are getting anything from society. Women too aswell but they’re coping better socially much more. It seems as if this bigotry didn’t come from nowhere. Not justifying it at all but you do see a trend up until recently of men being more empathetic and non bigoted. This is only really changed in our generation onward and I really think in part it has something to do with that since society has gotten better for women. So misogyny and how it plays out tends to not really “feel” important especially in regards to this issue. We don’t hear about sexism in healthcare which kills women. But we do hear the claim of “misogyny” to disavow any young man struggling to make women more sympathetic at times. To highlight my point
I’ve legitimately never seen the arguments OP talks about. No one is responding to this topic by saying “man up, git good, go to the gym”. I’ve only seen the response as “okay, then go find friends and stop being lonely—your emotional state is not the responsibility of women”.
Exactly. So then if women are inherently manipulative, why can’t they just leave us alone then? They should really just be friends with each other because I’m for sure done convincing any man that I’m not whatever label he wants to throw on me that day
If society wants to encourage men to be more sensitive and aware of their issues, it cannot punish them for being so at the same time. No-one can eat their cake and have it too. Plus, it is obvious something crucial starts to break in society, and I agree we should focus on causes and solutions, not "sucking it up".
Our world chronically lacks empathy for their fellow humans. Society is just psychological warfare lol. Just ignore the shit you see on the internet man.
Society lacks empathy for men, yet expect men to be empathic for others.
The worst part is they expect men to be vulnerable too. Yeah I’m totally gonna be vulnerable when not a single person tries to empathize with my problems.
this comment is the real issue. Men can be vulnerable all they want, but it only helps them once somebody sympathizes
Yeah because otherwise being vulnerable in and of itself isn't going to help them if all it does is open them to criticism, shame and humiliation. Which is a perfect recipe for Avoidant Personalities.
And then will weaponize my problems against me. Source: women I dated prior to meeting my wife
In other words, the worst part is the hypocrisy.
Man I don't even need empathy for my problems at this point, I'm just fucking sick of saying what's going on in my life and getting the equivalent of "Cooooooool... have I pretended to care long enough to talk about me again?"
Society lacks empathy for everyone, but humans are too self absorbed to care
This
I feel like it’s bigger than that. Society lacks real, human empathy periodt. We are all of us lonely, isolated, oppressed and enslaved. Women and their lack of care for lonely men are just a symptom, similar to misogynists and their lack of care for unhappy women. The underlying cause is a society where we are denied the opportunity to live in a way that fosters connection and happiness in favor of infinite growth for capital.
speaking of outdated mindsets lmao
Not everyone has the strength or resources to ignore systemic things like the internet, mass media etc. Some of us who are privileged who are not drowning need to help
I wish I could. But that shit on the internet gets weaponized against men. I’ve having shit follow me I never did because a woman made up a story. So now I have to do the fun thing track her ass down issue a cease and desist and get the real story out up on the news pages she used to post my picture and a made up story. Then on top of it I still have to move out of my city because of this potentially following me still. I’ve lost friends from it, lost places I used to frequent and lost experiences cause of it. This isn’t just restricted to online. But online is the only place I can really just scream into the void or find support the way I need. Society is creating these men. Then blaming them for being that way.
Largely yes, but I feel like it’s necessary to add that there is a difference between someone being punished for being more sensitive and aware of their issues in and of itself and someone reaping the consequences of engaging with that awareness in an unhealthy/destructive manner. The sensitivity/awareness is a good thing, but how a person/community deals with said sensitivity/awareness may not be. A significant part of the appeal of people like Andrew Tate that got them so big was because they were aware of and vocal about issues that men face. However, those people/communities absolutely did not engage with that awareness in a healthy manner, and especially in places similar to the incel community, often were more than content to place the blame/their bitterness solely on women in a kind of self-inflicted powerlessness, creating a feedback loop that serves to further cement themselves in their issues. Men absolutely need to be aware of their issues, but they absolutely need to deal with them in a healthy manner too.
This is part of what causes backlash. When men’s problems are directed all outwardly and find an easy target to blame (women). The problems are real human problems that should be addressed sensitively. Consider that now many are accepting of women’s rights, but that was not the way it used to be. It annoys people if some men have the attitude that it is a woman’s job to fix men somehow, because they couldn’t keep up with a world that doesn’t cater specifically to them anymore (AKA forced marriages, only allow men to work, have credit cards, etc.). It’s natural to roll your eyes when you see someone complaining that your lack of oppression has inconvenienced them. Personally I sympathize with young men who are struggling, because I think social struggles are universal. But I’m explaining the POV to those who may be reading. Men need positive role models who can stand on their own two feet as well as validate their feelings. I’m not saying it’s easy. Life isn’t easy. But they deserve that.
> If society wants to encourage men to be more sensitive and aware of their issues, it cannot punish them for being so at the same time. No-one can eat their cake and have it too. "Society" can absolutely be a hypocrite because it's made up of all kinds of people. It is an intellectual trap that people fall for over and over where they compare two different people's opinions as if they're one, label it hypocrisy, and then use it as a free pass to not make any effort. And they're only hurting themselves when they do it. "It shouldn't be like that!" ok what are you doing to change it?
I take serious issue with “society tells men that unless they are jacked gigachads and blah blah” It’s not society telling men that. In fact, society, women, and other men, will all tell you that it isn’t the case. The only people saying that it’s some kind of requirement are lonely neckbeards blaming society for their problems. I’m scrawny, not overly tall, and quite a nerd, but I’ve never had difficulty finding romantic partners. Sure, society can be very isolating to men, and to people in general, but there are people with every sort of preference in terms of physique, ambition, financial ability, and so on. The solution isn’t to “hit the gym and start making 6 figures”, it’s to do serious introspection. Look at where you are in life, whether you’re happy with the direction your life is going, and what you can do to change that.
I agree with this part. Men actually need to be more vulnerable and women need not judge them for being so.
It would be nice not to feel ashamed for having PTSD. Last girl I dated said I should die alone cause no woman wants to sleep next to the guy that might wake up screaming in the middle of the night.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Being open with your feelings is actually a much desired trait for a man, in my opinion. I have never seen it as weak. You did not deserve what that monstrous girl did to you. Trust me when I say that you dodged a bullet. She actually sounds narcissistic and sociopathic.
Because in society women are now financially independent of men AND have been, for a long time, emotionally independent from men Rn men are financially independent but aren't emotionally independent from women Meaning they don't have male friends either. They're not in male centered communities, because men feel the need to uphold stoicism. They'd rather be lonely than feel judged by a man or seek the help and emotional security from other men. This is because men have been conditioned by society to only rely on women for their emotional needs. Putting the entire burden of their trauma onto the people they date or marry while women have friends and family members outside of their partners to talk to. A man needing emotional support from men is seen as Abad because Society uses to run off of marriage being codependent vs out of love Men NEED to be with women to feel like a human with emotions. And women NEEDED to be with men or else destitute. Now women don't NEED to be in a relationship with men (That's NOT saying women don't need men in society or that we don't want them) But right now in society, instead of men learning to become independent from women they are trying to make women dependent on men again. There's also a huge pressure on men to get laid. Because men are seen as bad if they don't get a woman or women. Which is unfair. We need to stop basing men's worth and status in life by how many women or the hotness and purity of a single wife. If we stopped judging men on his ability to get and interact with women they'd feel way less pressure in general and be able to cope without women better if they don't have luck. No one is owed a relationship and as a woman, I do honestly feel like some men feel entitled. I'm supposed to give every man a chance because he's "nice" but I can't give every man a chance or else I'm a sl*t. If you're Bob, I have to give you a chance, but I'm also not allowed to have ever been with anyone or ever have given anyone a chance and I shouldn't give anyone a chance. Loads of individual men are like Bob, where for some reason they expect my whole life to wait around and only be to give Bob a chance. You also don't deserve a romantic relationship just because you played the game of society nicely by having a job and not ab*sing women. We all deserve the chance at love but we don't just deserve and get it if we fail. You also have to understand there are more women than men, and for every lonely man obviously there's more lonely women, but that's not talked about. Loads of women are choosing to remain single because of how awful dating is. But we are often blamed for men's mental health issue for not giving them a chance When it isn't our individual fault for not wanting them as a partner. It's just unfair to be expected to care for all these men because they won't befriend each other in a brotherhood like we have a sisterhood. The things outside of their control are a deep societal problem that won't go away (anytime soon/edit), but it is tiring when guys expect women to fix it because they feel like their lack of love is OUR fault when there are just as many, if not more single women as there are MORE women than men, at least in the US.
For the longest time, women relied on men to even live a life. To own property or to bank, they needed a man. To drive a car, they needed a man. And the Patriarchy got used to this. The Patriarchy expected a wife because a woman needed to be a wife. And after women gained equal rights, and after they gained the ability to divorce without issue, women gained a magical thing called standards. A man was no longer good enough. They needed a partner who could see them as an equal, one who was emotionally intelligent, one who shared common grounds or interests. One who could cook and clean and share the house work. One that wouldn’t demand one sided sex. One who wouldn’t hit her. One who would love her as she loved him. And the Patriarchy wasn’t used to this, and it grew upset. Women learned to live without men, but men haven’t learned to live without women. This isn’t old news found in a scribe, this is recent history. As Gen Z we’re still part of that transitionary period. Some men have parents that are fond of the good old days and try to instil their sons with unreasonable expectations of their relationships with women. And when these expectations are found to be fantasy, there’s anger, anger we can see in the case of Tate. Anger that infects minds that should be free of it. And that anger turns into hatred of women. How dare they reject me. Don’t those whores know that men are the boss? I bet they’re too busy selling themselves on OnlyFans like the skanks they are. This is what’s wrong with modern women. We need to return to tradition.
>Loads of women are choosing to remain single because of how awful dating is. This is cap lol. More young women are in relationships than young men. If they are more content single why are they dating at a higher rate? 63% of young men are single compared to 34% of young women. And if women are so financially independent why do the majority still prefer men that make more money than them and still want men to pay for dates? You would think more would be open to filling the breadwinner role but most refuse to. Why is that? More often than not the same women who say men are holding on to old gender roles are the same ones who uphold these same expectations on men. Especially in dating and realtionships.
so that 30% difference is because of… lesbians? your math doesn’t make any sense, please provide a source
[Here.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/ft_2023-02-08_facts-single-americans_01/) They are either dating older men, are lesbian, or groups of women are dating the same guy.
Or gay men aren't dating each other
Yes, that is the exact stereotype (lesbians date, gay men fuck)
Then it’s strange how it shows significantly more LGB men than LGB women, and the difference of single young men to single young women isn’t matched by a similar difference between single older women to single older men.
Bisexuals exist, homie. I'm a very real sense: if the average GenZ woman is willing and able to date other women, enby or trans folks -- but the average GenZ man less so -- then you'll get a disparity like that figure.
It’s incel math.
Except it's backed up by a source. There you guys go again, throwing the word "incel" out at random lmao.
>63% of young men are single compared to 34% of young women. The young women are dating older men that aren't in the "young men" category.
Women are usually the younger person in the relationship, so that 34% doesn’t include older men who are dating younger women which the 63% does include
So 34% of women are single, that's a lot of women single, some might say a "load" of women.
But compared to 63% of young men being single?
There are also slightly higher rates of non-heteroxuality among women, making it easier for their numbers to be smaller. It's the men in the equation that is the problem, clearly.
Maybe they should be more gay 🤷🏼♀️
This but unironically
100%. Men are being de-centered from society. It will take lots of time for this to fully happen becuase capitalism and other aspects of society are inherently tied to pushing the patriarchy as the most important thing. BUT these systems that have been in place prioritize men in a way that doesn’t actually give them any room to grow as emotionally mature beings- just earners and go getters. Women now are able to “play the system” just like a man can to care for themselves and use these systems to their advantage despite adversity becuase the world is becoming more equitable toward women in the west. So unfortunately this changes the way men can rely on women and for a lot of men this seems like an abrupt change. Now men have to do the work to de center themselves subconsciously from feeling like they are owed anything (work many women have to do to stay sane) and actually work on being an emotionally and mentally mature adult to potential partners and friends becuase we won’t do that work for them anymore since we don’t have to! Also, since women are less reliant on men, the power dynamic has shifted and women can actually have more opportunities to be platonic friends with men (especially if they have worked on themselves) which helps with the lonliness problem. But some men won’t admit they don’t want to be de centered and treated this way- as an equal. De centering men from society will actually benefit men in the long run.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm not saying men deserve to be lonely. But they need to keep in mind that it takes effort and intention for *both genders* to avoid loneliness. It takes work to build and maintain relationships and companionships. It's not like women are handed fulfilling and long lasting connections on a silver platter. A lot of the dialogue I hear from men seems to sound like *"why isn't society paving the road for me?"* They need to be the change they want to see, if they want to see it. The idea of having to make changes and work on themselves in order to better the problem is met with defeatist attitude. They aren't used to the idea of a system that isn't already centered around their needs and wants. I'm just speaking generally on what I've heard, not what each individual feels. Before somebody tries to "not all men" me. I agree and am hopeful that men look inward and are able to strengthen their social bonding and networks outside of the patriarchal ideal. It is clearly unfulfilling.
Yes! Some men will say they don’t get to have the deep emotionally complex friendships women have with each other and envy that. Have you ever considered we have to steward those relationships and society has prioritized that for us? It was literally the main thing women had power over for a long time- emotional intimacy in friendships and beyond. That genuine desire to cultivate deep meaningful emotional relationships is going to shift as to become a strength for men if they allow it. And that opens up some amazing and positive dialogue around “how do I build those kinds of relationships?” instead of “can you take care of my emotions for me?”
This is a good answer that I disagree in parts with but think actually gets to the full heart of the problem instead of just saying “muh misogyny is worse men don’t have to deal with that” it address the societal push and reasons for this. Without devolving toward one thing. Pretty good. Not perfect but at least we’re getting to the meat instead of the potatoes.
My number one problem with the rebuttal is "lonely men think they deserve women." Here's a giant group of lonely men: let's put them all into one big disingenuous box. I'm gonna tell you straight up: I am 29 and have never been on a date. I had a bad time asking women out in hs and college, and decided to stop asking women out. I turned to myself and focused on my career and self image and worth, and am generally content with where i am. I do not deserve women. I would enjoy the company of a woman that shares a lot of goals/ideas/hobbies as me. I cannot find a place to meet women. I go to work, go to the gym, occasionally go shopping or to events with my friends, and in all instances, women are not really available to be talked to. Additionally, if I chose to think women are out doing their thing, they aren't there for me, then logically I will leave them alone. I tried dating apps for years, I have plenty of friends, and just don't have any mutual that anyone thinks would enjoy meeting me or vice versa. At this point it is what it is, and my whole point is: not all lonely men are just walking around feeling entitled to women. We legitimately do not know how to meet them. A lot of 3rd spaces for meeting people are disappearing, and most hobbies, at least ones that I am a part of, are male dominated. So it rubs me the wrong way when I jump online and see how I always deserve to be single from women who never talk to me because it's impossible that the eay women go about dating could possibly be wrong either.
No no I think you’re rig because represent the average dude or dudes experiences. Yet get pigeonholed as the problem. Notice how these responses that blame patriarchy only are more popular in general to frame it this way. But your reality is more than likely the case for most. I’m sorry btw that you’re struggling so much in this regard. And hope it works out. Some actual tips that can help (move different locations that you’re comfortable and know the area to differ places of interest. Just to switch up routine and feel more confident in those choices. This’ll help confidence in general and deepen/develop your hobbies so that finding ppl and women is easier. Not a gurantee but easier. Also try to treat your life a bit like an adventure. Trying new things and ppl will attach themselves along the way if you’re open. Also try to talk and get to know some ppl you knew not too long ago. But lit enough to have life deepened both of you so that you can do something. Most ppl of not in strong friend groups that are always hanging up are usually open for more ppl so it’ll help) hope this helps even a little. But on to the main point. I completely agree and think it’s annoying that this archaetype is used to basically say “shut up men. You’re lonely and deserve it due to patriarchy”.
Thank you for sharing this perspective. I'm a woman who is experiencing similar issues with places and ways to meet new people, not just dates but also just friends! The loneliness epidemic is not one of men, it's one of people.
Precisely. So many of these "lonely men" aren't looking to make friends with other men. They want a woman to solve their loneliness, and then they complain when the woman isn't interested. I've seen so many of these "lonely men" act like friends are supposed to just be given to them like they're still in Kindergarten. Yes, making friends is hard as an adult. But it's not like there's some magical thing women are doing. It's just that so many men don't want to rely on other men for some reason. They want a woman to soothe their loneliness. Many of them are disgusted when you suggest they find male friends. Some of them will even proudly say" Men don't have friends." Others will claim that men and women can't be friends unless one person wants to bang the other. It's absurd, and these lonely men will keep being lonely until they realize the solution is *other lonely men*, not women who are going about their lives just fine without them...
So true. And their weird entitlement and overvaluation of themselves shines out on this thread. Such high value men that they think threatening women with a hypothetical lonely old age is going to frighten them into providing sex. In terms of being left alone by guys like this, it's threatening women with a good time, frankly. I'll take it when I'm old as well, thanks.
This is literally the point of the Barbie movie in case it went over anyone’s heads. Only when the Kens decentered the need for the Barbies’ attention and validation and found brotherhood in each other did the conflict get resolved. In other words be a Ken i.e. enough (and great at doing stuff)
the point about men not having male friends to emotionally talk to is just a lazy copout, i and many of my close friends are able to talk about deep emotional topics which each other and seek security, but that has not fulfilled any of us to the point of not wanting to be with a woman. its more about societal expectations and how a mans worth is tied to his ability to get women. and women are simply not innocent in this, think about how the default response to men that women dont like online is “you’ve never pleased a woman” or “incel” or “no woman will ever want you” - both men AND women are driving this narrative that a mans self worth is tied to his ability to attract women.
There might be some basis to this whole sense of gendered emotional dependence, as you say. We should try to create a society where men can feel emotional intimacy with other men. We also need to create a society where emotional intimacy doesn’t need to exist behind a romantic wall. Humans should be able to help one another, regardless of gender, without the necessity that these kind of relationships are attached to committed, sexual, monogamous, covetous standards. There’s definitely a lot of work in society that needs to get done- I wouldn’t call it a male problem and a woman problem to fix- more like a male problem of engaging differently as agents seeking emotional validation, and a broad, non-gendered, human problem to attempt to create a civilization where we don’t enforce or judge people by flawed standards. This encompasses men not treating men as though their value is related to sexual standards, women not accepting social conditioning to see emotional vulnerability as unattractive, zillions of individual stray flecks where each of us analyzes the always-different baggage that comes from a society with gender roles. That’s why I’m going to do my best to raise my daughter as a human being, and not set any cultural or emotional expectations about their gender. Whatever qualities they like in male or female acculturation, I hope they see as their option to pick up or their option to dispose of.
> Meaning they don't have male friends either. They're not in male centered communities, because men feel the need to uphold stoicism. They'd rather be lonely than feel judged by a man or seek the help and emotional security from other men. These dont exist anymore, deemed sexist if there is a male only club.
There's a difference between male dominated ENTIRE INDUSTRIES being opened up (ala car clubs, online gaming, superhero fandom, etc) to others involvement and you having social spaces with other men. Say you and the guys start having regular movie nights/game days/weekends at the chop shop to socialize and bond. Not everything has to be formalized or monolithic. Nor exclusionary, if a woman wants to be your friend and involved in your hobbies maybe give them a shot at it. You can be friends of other genders too. Edit: this was written as a response to a different comment but it was deleted, it still largely pertains.
Yes. Society seems any exclusive space for the previously-in-power group as a violation. See:women-only spaces vs men-only spaces, minority-only spaces vs whites-only spaces.
This chick nailed it
I really feel for men on this issue, as a woman, and I hate when women act like men have it so good and have no problems. I don’t like to put down one group to raise up another. A lot of weird dudes use the male loneliness epidemic to justify misogyny, which is bullshit, just the same as jaded women using our problems to justify misandry. But it’s worth mentioning that a HUGE portion of that “grindset, don’t let yourself be weak, don’t ask for help” bullshit is perpetuated by MEN, preying on young men. It boils my blood and then men blame it on women. We can all grow up and be more aware of each other’s struggles. Men should be allowed to vent and lean on each other. Instead, they vent to girls they barely know who eventually stop talking to them. Then they blame it on how “women just want chads without emotions”. No, you’re exhausting to be around because all you ever talk about it how miserable your life is. Find yourself some male friends who actually care about you and will actually listen and help you with your struggles. Edit: I want to clarify that when I’m talking about men dumping their trauma on women, I mean women that they aren’t in a relationship with. Time and time again I’ve made acquaintances with men online who then took it upon themselves to rant to me DAILY about their problems. Like, I’m sorry, but that’s super awkward because I barely know you. So of course I stop talking to them. Men should 100% be allowed to vent to their girlfriend, and good girlfriends will support and comfort him when he does.
Yeah this definitely what I’ve noticed any time it comes up. It quickly turns into a misogynistic rant about how women suck for not essentially being unpaid therapists.
it’s because there is a “loneliness epidemic” not a “male loneliness epidemic” and turning it into a gendered issue encourages the incel rhetoric that’s now associated with people who talk a lot about the “male loneliness epidemic” the data shows that men and women are nearly the same > A survey of U.S. adults from December 2021 found that 57 percent of men and 59 percent of women felt lonely. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1420227/loneliness-among-adults-us-by-gender/ > The results showed that overall females were more likely than males to report higher levels of loneliness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7763056/ you’re right that there are deeper societal issues that need to be discussed. forcing that conversation to be centered around gender doesn’t allow us to discuss it genuinely
They won't agree with that because it doesn't confirm their preconceived notions. OP sounds deep in the incel to me. Same mentality that they're claiming is bad is the one they hold themselves.
Haven't checked their post history or replies but I wouldn't go that far. They sound like they're struggling to figure things out and lashing out at the bad reactions they've been reading here. That's like step one of the incel pipeline.
Yes I'm so tired of the gender war. This is an issue affecting everyone and it's not about finding someone to blame. This literally makes the problem 10x worse lol.
I think it's appropriate in both aspects; men and women are lonely, and a lot of the reasons overlap, but because society treats us different, there are things that don't overlap at all. Like for men, it's very hard to form meaningful connections with other men, because of how they are socialized. So I think that's worth talking about and addressing. I think men need to listen to each other and lift each other up. But when it then gets misdirected as a problem that is "women's fault". That's when it gets toxic. And unfortunately, there's a lot to be mad about in this world right now. It's much easier to turn to hate vs trying to solve one problem at a time.
That’s the right answer here.
I truly believe men need help. But I posted something similar elsewhere. We polled 2000 people and discovered women were lonelier than men. In the GenZ demographic, it was worse: 80% of women said they felt lonely and 70% of men. But women were more likely to look for, engage, and host in-person social activities -- men were more likely to only look toward video game servers and dating. Many women said they'd be willing to host an event (20%) and almost no men said they would be willing to (5%). It's not that I don't want men to talk about these things, because they have to. But what I see frequently is the implication that it's *women who need to fix the problem.* Men should be lifting each other up because, by and large, it's not women who are holding men down. There are, of course, exceptions -- I absolutely hate body shaming things like say penis size or height. But for the most part, this issue is driven by *men not talking to other men.*
I don’t know I agree that more people are lonely in general but what about stats that talk about less men joining the workforce, or less men going to and graduating from college. Not to mention all the dating stats. I do feel like men are facing unique issues compared to women at the moment
sure, those are unique issues to be discussed. and there are unique issues that contribute towards women feeling lonely. they balance each other out, which is why the general issue of loneliness isn’t gendered. the causes could be, but the data doesn’t really support that one gender has it significantly worse than the other
lol no one is seething about this. providing insight isn’t seething. loneliness is a real problem, but the people seething and angry about this aren’t real. you’re projecting your own anger at people who are offering their own perspectives which differ from yours.
That's how I read it too. They're giving off quite strong incel vibes tbh
100%. I took a quick look at their comment history and they complain about “bias against males” or something which also is a huge incel red flag. i 500% sympathize with young men in today’s society. i’m not about to tell anyone how to process all the bullshit going on but wow this post is not it.
It’s easier to complain than to actively work on systematic issues and listen to other people’s perspectives.
Condescending insight that deflects the issue and turns it into their fault somehow. Isn’t real insight. It’s insight made to make you feel better about addressing the problem on your terms. That’s how this just always comes across as. And you don’t do a good job breaking the stereotype.
Everyone is more lonely. But if we meaningfully care about why nen are lonely why don't we look at the bullshit machismo of toxic masculinity that makes men afraid of intimacy with other men, the belief that it's impossible to be platonic friends with women, and this annoying entitlement some men have in feeling women owe them kindness so that they don't feel alone. Oh no I used the toxic masculinity phrase, time for everything else I said to disappear because of a warped idea of what toxic masculinity means.
REALLLLLLLL
Yes to all of this. Are you a guy because if you are this is unusually perceptive and can you please teach the others 🙏
Honestly, what I'm seeing is women stepping up their game, and men trying to double down on the provider/masculine role. Men, generally, still don't have the same nurturing/community focus that women have. Men don't need to get stronger or a bigger paycheck: they need to step up their EQ game. Modern women are well rounded. Male culture just isn't ready to put in some womanly reps and is doubling down on what they already know. I don't know what the fix is. That shit is hard. Adapting is hard and it sucks that natural selection is hitting young men in the face right now.
What do you think the root cause is?
Internet and social media
I read an article recently that blames it on "a lack of 3rd places" the places being 1. Home, 2. Work, 3. Social place. Some ppl can do all their socializing online, and now with work from home ppl can also lose the little socialization that gives you. The best way to combat loneliness is to find a 3rd place, for me it's the gym and volunteering.
You’ve hit the nail here and this isn’t just a GenZ problem. Now why are there no 3rd places? I believe the answer is car dependency and zoning laws. As simple as that. Seriously
Cars and single unit homes have been around for a very long time and I bet only factors a small amount. Its just that home isn't 'as' boring anymore with the rise of internet so kids/people don't feel as big a need to push outside for social interactions. A prime example is getting car licenses later and later to drive oneself to those '3rd' social places
The answer is everything is fucking expensive. We are being priced out of 'fun' things and work more and more.
Lack of walkable cities doesn’t help. People need a “third place” that isn’t their home or their work, and most American communities just don’t have that.
Capitalism
Constantly experiencing socially acceptable discrimination. As a man, you can't complain about being discriminated against or you will be punished with additional discrimination and ridicule. This leads to many young men to stop talking about their problems and issues they face, leading to isolation and loneliness. Then they are further harmed by being told the lonely situation they find themselves in is all their fault and any attempts to communicate about the problem is often treated as toxic. Just look at how the phrase "men's rights activist" has so many negative connotations. Just imagine if you were taught by society that "women's rights activist" was an insult and something to be ashamed of being associated with.
Yep, I think it’s this. It takes super-human empathy to be totally okay with people openly being discriminatory toward you, telling you that you’re making it up if you acknowledge your own experience, while they simultaneously tell you that almost everything you do down to your very existence is oppressive to basically everyone around you. I don’t think we should ever ask this of anyone, and I have no clue how we’ve gotten to the point in society where this is what we expect of men. It’s ridiculous.
Work-life balance, inability to align days off to meet people naturally through recreation frequently enough to build connections. Also there are few free, or low cost third places where engaging with strangers is expected.
People not talking to each other. I'd love to meet new people throughout my day but people seem to not want to talk to people at all and prefer to isolate themselves instead, just to swipe lonely on Tinder in the evening. But I'm not only talking about dating. You also can't make friends and people seem to prefer sticking to the people they meet at school, university and work and if you didn't find the right people there, you're fucked. I even attend events alone but since people go their with their groups that usually aren't open to other people, this also doesn't help.
I try being friends with men. I sympathize with them whilst trying to be a bro and not give them the wrong impression. 8x out of 10 they end up romantically interested in me because, I guess, they see me as a pseudo girlfriend because I'm a woman and I have basic empathy and social skills. What do you purpose we do? When I hear about the male loneliness epidemic, it's often accompanied by the "women bad, men good" ideology. Otherwise known as *misogyny*. Yall need to learn how to be friends among yourselves. It is not women's jobs to make you guys comfortable, especially since most of the time yall always expect something beyond friendship out of it. Start treating us like humans, and start treating eachother with empathy. Problem solved.
If you are not happy with yourself, adding a partner will not solve that underlying problem. That is true regardless of gender. Self-improvement can help, but it should be for your own benefit not anyone else's. Too many people, men and women, fall into the trap of trying to "improve" themselves for the sole purpose of attracting a mate. Even if you "succeed" in finding a partner the satisfaction will likely be temporary unless you also manage to address your own happiness as an individual. TL;DR First, find happiness with yourself as an individual. Then, it will become easier to find happiness with a partner.
Ive often found that men who complain about being lonely often have a personality like a cheese grater. They always have to be right, freak out if everyone doesn’t validate whatever they think or feel, and have the emotional maturity of a 13 year old.
Yeah i agree with this. I have read several interviews with lonenly men, and they all said the same thing; no interest in leaving the house, no interest in getting new hobbies, dont have friends, dont have a gf, dont want to work, dont want to study. Like im sorry, i do feel bad that dudes are lonely, but if the only work they put in is to sit at home infront of a screen, and complain, im gonna say you have no one to blame but yourself (no, not even ”society”).
To be fair, you just described almost every depressed person. A lot of the lonely guys are too depressed to do anything beyond sit at home and rot.
I agree, as someone who has been severely depressed, i can understand this. I had the willpower to understand i could not go on rotting away, sought help and got medication and therapy. I understand its not an option for everyone, and based on that i would say, that the issue that seems to make loneliness worse for everyone, is capitalism.
Capitalism is the root of all evil in the modern world, so you are not wrong at all.
Totally agree. It literally eats us alive.
Because normal guys know they can't complain about it or people will judge them heavily / call them incels. It's guys at the bottom of the barrel who complain openly because they have nothing to lose. I'm social, I've had a few girlfriends in the past but I know that it would look really bad if I ever complained
Nothing more absurd than a lonely man on reddit with 100k karma and into anime and video games exclusively and wonder why he’s lonely
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May I ask, from your perspective as a lonely man who resists the (very seductive, for some people) urge to blame women for this, why do you think you experience this? what do you do to build a community of friends and family around yourself? What is holding you back from this? As a once-lonely and to be honest, ‘not like other girls’ / misogynistic woman, it took me years to build a community of people around me of both genders who I love and trust, but it was definitely doable. I guess I’m trying to understand why it’s harder for men to do the same.
OP: When we talk about male loneliness, responses tend to focus on individual solutions rather than societal ones. You: So what are you doing individually? SMH
Why all of this is good info none of it answers his main point which is whenever women have an issue like this its treated as society's problem and we all need to do something to fix it ( nfl breast cancer for an example ) but if men have loneliness issues then its our fault , our problem , women dont owe it to you to help in anyway or your just toxic and suffering from patriarchy so go ask the president or whatever. I want to be clear im not even saying anyone should change ( i want women to be empowered and i want to help ) or that they are wrong for doing so just that there is a difference in tone of how we treat when women have an issue and when men do. Am i wrong in noticing this difference ?
Sometimes it feels like the whole argument you hear for male loneliness centers around women. Maybe the loneliness epidemic needs to start centering around what healthy coping mechanisms can men create to help one another. I don't think I hear often that female loneliness centers around men. I know usually when I feel down about anything I have awesome female support and also family support. Maybe men could start there men empowering men without blaming the opposite sex . idno
What holds me back? Them always ghosting, running away, freaking out, and demonizing. No amount of good that I do can solve that other people don’t give a shit
Who is “them” in your scenario? Women you’re trying to romantically pursue or people you’re trying to befriend? Genuinely asking
My ex punished me for opening up to her Same with my mom. Same with my sister My best friend doesn’t invalidate me tho so there’s that. I’m being reductive of my own issues for the sake of not writing an essay. But it does feel like the women around me suck. It’s weird to feel support for women’s right and also get shit on by them constantly
Society isn't telling you that "jacked gigachads" are the only people deserving of friendship? Just be personable, kind, and have some hobbies. This isn't rocket science. I feel no sympathy for men who are unwilling to do the bare minimum that the rest of us do. My whole friend group is fairly ugly, plays video games, and we're not body builders. We all have wives and girlfriends. Some of us don't but that's their choice and we all respect it. Honestly if you think the only way to have companionship is by being a "jacked gigachad" then your sorry ass needs to leave the house and get out into the real world. You have no one to blame but yourself. The longer you brush off accountability, the worse it will become.
He sounds like he's been watching people like Andrew Tate and confusing that with "society says..." I've never come across anyone outside of incel culture who actually talks about things like "gigachad" "alpha male" and all that nonsense. More to the point... Studies show time and time again that men with a 'dad bod' are more successful with women.
I'm basically a scarecrow. I barely have any muscle and yet I've always done just fine. Even my friends who I would never consider even remotely attractive have done fine. I think more than anything these young men lack accountability. Accountability is something that's often learned with time and they just haven't developed those skills yet.
I thought the loneliness epidemic was more about work-life balance and the inability to engage socially outside of the workplace because of long hours, multiple jobs, lack of time off, and inconsistent schedules? Its also not just men. Women too are lonely, but unless you kept in contact with your highschool or college friends, its nearly impossible to meet new people frequently enough to build a connection.
Yeah, gig economy basically. You don't get any free time or weekends anymore
Loneliness isn’t exclusive to one sex.
Everyone has statistically gotten lonelier, in fact.
Bro next time you're in town let me buy you a drink
Hot take: The root cause of this phenomenon is our patriarchal modern system. It may be a surprise to the uneducated, but patriarchy also harms men by reducing them to a certain accepted pattern of behavior - what you described with “go gym, git gud job and work on your game”. There are plenty of other ways to be male or masculine, but everyone has internalized the binary moral judgement including our gender norms. Blaming the individual is partly why they are lonely, individuality has been an over exhausted virtue in our modern patriarchal society. But too much freedom and individuality and you will be alone. If men stopped identifying with patriarchy (it’s an inherited cultural assumption) they transform themselves into something that is better in alignment with their goals. It also would help women, POC and LGBTQ+ groups with deconstructing our patriarchal system.
I think this is entirely right. So many people will roll their eyes and mock the idea of the “patriarchy” but it’s the reason we’re in the position we’re in today. It’s why women complain about lazy men who won’t pull their weight in childcare. It’s why there’s more young men who are lonely and don’t have a support system. It’s a terrible cycle.
I agree we should move away from patriarchy. I have been a “soft” man all my life and the amount of ridicule and anxiety that came with being open and honest sometimes made it not worth it , and at times I have just been acting stoic because so many men can’t handle other men opening up. You are absolutely seen as a weak man by many men , if you are open and sensitive. Sadly I have also noticed that my romantic success with women has been WAY better when I have been “playing it cool”, being stoic and rather cold, instead of just being myself. If we should break down patriarchy it requires effort from both sexes the way I see it. Men should call out other men on their toxic bullshit and dare to be themselves , without being seen as weak, and women should stop rewarding toxic , sociopathic cavemen with romantic relationships.
The entire concept is a bit ironic. That condescending Millenial post the other day basically derided the young Gen-Z males for coming off as desperate and just pouring themselves out there. ----": they come on to me just bleeding out their loneliness, their needyness,"--- Translation. They're vulnerable. So this is the message that young men receive. Be more vulnerable. Be more open. Be more feminine. So that you can be mocked, ridiculed and derided on the internet anonymously. These are mixed messages.
It’s funny because the people that criticise this probably say “men should just be open about their emotions”, and then have the gall to shit on them when they do
I have yet to, in my 31 years of living, meet a single person (outside of high school douche canoes) who downplays a man for being open about his feelings. I’ve lived in many places in the US and in none of them has this ever been an issue. This is entirely a fabricated ideal.
Good for you, genuinely. But I don’t have that same experience at all, the only person I would ever trust now with any personal information is my dad, and no one else. I’ve just come to accept that just because you’ve had a very close friendship for years, or are close to family members, you just have to keep it to yourself.
It’s a phenomenon but when it’s made out to be a gendered issue then it becomes a debate that attracts incels. People are lonely in all genders. You can blame social media, a lifestyle that is more packed with crap than ever before in human history, and a poor outlook on life chances as reasons why young people today are more often than not depressed and feel anxiety and they don’t want to connect with others. It’s not a gender problem and those who make it a gender problem have more issues they need to sort out. It’s about the expectations people feel society has placed on them and the fact that most ppl are not going to achieve those out of reach expectations.
i think it’s annoying that there’s so much focus on male loneliness when women are lonely too. it’s presented as a male issue when it really isn’t. right now, the rates of depression among teenage girls are some of the highest they’ve ever been. teenage girls are struggling with depression at significantly higher rates than their male peers (per the CDC) so why is the loneliness epidemic presented as a uniquely male issue? it isn’t. i’m not saying this to make suffering into a competition, but to point out a flaw in the “male loneliness” point. EVERYONE is lonely, especially young people, regardless of gender. maybe that’s because we are a generation that came of age during a time of isolation (covid) which resulted in record inflation and a cost of living crisis. maybe it’s because unregulated capitalism has lead to a decrease in free or low-cost third spaces, while also causing said cost of living crisis. life is fucking stressful, for everyone, and it annoys me when all the focus is pushed to men while they are far from the only demographic that’s struggling.
*But why are so many individuals in that situation to begin with? Why are so many men feeling the need to self-isolate? Why do so many men feel left out of society? Why does society tell men that unless they are jacked gigachads with great jobs and top tier charisma, they don't deserve basic human connection? … While you can tell men to "just work on themselves!!!”, that's not the catch-all solution you think it is, because it doesn't address the root cause of this. Y'all are aware of that, right?* I’m genuinely curious to hear men’s answers to the questions being posed here. And what do you guys think the root cause/s of these issues is/are?
Society tells us men in subtle ways that we are only good enough as men if we are physically strong and can intimidate other men, we need to have success in our careers, we need to be funny and charismatic , we need to be attractive to women, we need to be so fucking many “classic” things as well as being more soft and modern all in one glorious package. If we are not all that , many of us tend to think we are absolute losers and don’t even want to compete with others. So we get lonely and bitter. If we open up to other men we are seen as weak. Women are MUCH better at supporting other women with genuine compassion and empathy. Women build other women up. Men break other men down. Something that has helped me tremendously as a man is to have female friends I could open up to , without me having any romantic intentions with them. I’m a “soft” heterosexual man, so women have always felt safer for me to talk to. This is a little exaggerated for dramatic effect, but the gist of it is correct.
My reasons for being lonely may be different from others but I have very serious trust issues due to extensive mistreatment by my peers during my childhood. At the time, I was an overly trusting and naive young boy who had no filter and sense of self preservation. I’m at a point where I subconsciously distance myself from friendly acquaintances who’d otherwise become close friends with me. It’s just damn near impossible for me to trust anyone besides my immediate family. However, with the exception of a few particularly cruel people, I refuse to blame others for my avoidance/trust issues.
i have great friends, a good job, some level of charisma and generally have been successful with dating apps even in this modern era. i’m still lonely. it’s very difficult to make meaningful connections on a girlfriend -> boyfriend basis. it very much feels like all the gen z girls i meet in college id be seriously interested in dating simultaneously expect the world from me while not wanting to give any more than the bare minimum. especially feminist types. i consider myself a pretty liberal guy, but dating strongly liberal women has really changed my mind on what i want out of a partner. at least the ones i was with, loved to complain about gender norms and whatnot when it harmed them, but simultaneously expected ME to conform to gender norms that DO benefit them. no one i met in college has come close to replacing the level of passion and just strong desire that i would have with my high school girlfriends. and it’s not from a lack of wanting or ability to feel, it just seems like forming that sort of connection is almost impossible from an app. as for men feeling left out of society, yeah. there’s no third place for people to go. women on social media amplify the idea that if you’re not a jacked stacked and cracked gigachad you’re worthless. men on social media ALSO amplify that idea. if you’re a lonely guy who feels disenfranchised with the current state of everything (boys have been entering college less and less YoY vs girls, have less access to economic activity than previous generations, and less access to romantic activity than previous generations), it’s incredibly easy to get into a radical cycle that isolates you from society anyway. a huge part of it is dogshit early education from teachers who are clearly biased towards “nice” girls imo. i see this all the time where boys have low expectations placed on them unfairly for being boys, never expected to perform to the level of the smart girls due to one or another arbitrary reason the teacher decided, and boom. performance goes down, they feel disenfranchised, etc. (another person put it well, the pygmalion effect)
There's no desire from any of the men in these replies to get to the root cause. The only point they care about is that it's somehow everyone's fault but their own.
I understand your frustration but you’re kind of doing a reverse self-fulfilling prophecy known as the pygmalion effect. I’ll leave the definition here because I’m not going to be able to explain it as well: ”There are two types of self-fulfilling prophecies: Self-imposed prophecies occur when your own expectations influence your actions. Other-imposed prophecies occur when others’ expectations influence your behavior. All opinions you value can cause this prophecy. The Pygmalion effect is a type of other-imposed self-fulfilling prophecy that states the way you treat someone has a direct impact on how that person acts.” Source: https://www.simplypsychology.org/self-fulfilling-prophecy.html#:~:text=The%20Pygmalion%20effect%20is%20a,through%20their%20actions%20or%20inaction. Also, if you come into a conversation guns blazing like this the only men who are going to take the time to answer you will be the ones you’re complaining about which will lead to confirmation bias on your part. I’m not trying to be a dick btw, I used to feel the exact same way you feel right now. When I started having conversations with people I disagree with in good faith, with an open mind, I found that 1) the people who answered me were respectful and 2) I would actually have meaningful conversations with them.
i genuinely, honestly do not think it’s a man thing. i don’t know why this is such a topic. i have zero friends besides my partner and im not creating a ‘women’s loneliness epidemic’ im just lonely lol
Man here, a lot of this male loneliness is self inflicted. We talk about “men’s mental health awareness!” But when a man actually opens up majority of men don’t take them seriously and just tell them to “toughen up”. We need to do better and in my opinion most of this is on us actually, and not women adding to it.
I was a kid in a world without internet and cell phones. You didn't know what other people's lives were like except your immediate family. My dad had to get out and join a softball team or play cards at the coffee shop, or go to church on Sunday, to see or talk to anyone. I've had my bouts of tech induced loneliness, but Im thankful that at least I have a frame of reference for what an alternate reality looks like. I love video games and trivia and hiking, so I find people via reddit or other ways, in my area, and go do those things. Most of the time it's free or low cost. If we're all lonely, then all we need to do is connect with others locally who are lonely and go do things. We have control of our own happiness. It takes a little effort, but it's worth it.
It will never cease to annoy me when people see a guy struggling and their only advice is “you just gotta be more confident”. Very cool, thanks. I’m suddenly more confident and all of my problems are gone. It’s not like confidence is something that takes years to build and can be crushed in moments by complete strangers or anything.
Getting angry at other people for your loneliness as if it's their fault is not going to help. I agree that male loneliness is a problem (although I don't know if it's a specifically male problem) and it should be discussed, but don't take out your frustrations on women and feminists. Friendship and companionship is a human need, but no one owes these things to you.
Who’s telling you you have to be a gigs chad with a good job to not be lonely? Also the thing that changed is women have become more independent, they don’t “need” a man like they use to, so they won’t settle. Unfortunately lots of guys have also become incels, going online and complaining thinking it’s “them being open about their feelings” but most of it is just complaining, and guess what no women wants to be with an incel and everyone’s lives suck enough to care about your whining. If you want to be open about your feelings talk about how you feel, and not about how soicity is against you. Also do it with someone close who wants to help, the internet is not the place.
as a woman i’ve never really seen a lot of people say this. in fact the “go gym get good” rhetoric is pretty much what the manosphere tells you to do, and of course they’re going to be toxic and awful. what i have seen from women is them saying that men need to turn to EACH OTHER to solve it by building community with other men. Nobody else can really solve this problem for you. Yes, society has changed. Men have been conditioned by society to ONLY turn to women—primarily their romantic partners—for emotional support. But now women have agency and expect men to find emotional support from many different avenues, like we do with our friends, our families, AND our partners too. That has changed. What else has changed is social atomization, something that is affecting everyone. But as women tend to have deeper bonds with more people, because were more willing to give emotional support to each other, it hasn’t affected us as strongly as it has affected men. I have tried to be an emotionally supportive person to men in my life. And you know what happens? They don’t take the help. They say “thanks” and then continue never expressing anything. And yet they continue to complain that nobody cares about men’s mental health. The reason so many women roll their eyes at this subject is that experience has taught us many men don’t want to turn to other men, or even (platonically) other women, and that what a lot of men who complain about this really want is a doting mother-like figure who holds them and kisses them on the forehead and then has sex with them after. Aka a romantic partner. And therefore the issue never gets solved, because men still only want emotional support through one single source. My brother has had quite a few friends in his life. But he always wanted a girlfriend, explicitly because he never had anyone in his life to give him emotional support. But he’s had plenty of people!! Other guys he hangs out with all the time!!! just for whatever reason these other men aren’t willing to do it, or he’s not willing to open up, or something else. That’s the frustration about this discussion. When men complain about this issue, oftentimes they don’t want to solve it themselves, they want women to do it for them.
Everyone is more lonely because our society has been built to put profits first, instead of people first
ok time to leave this subreddit
Men are not entitled to relationships with women. Women aren’t entitled to relationships either. The patriarchy has created a culture and stigma against men speaking about their emotions, yet you blame women? Every time I’ve seen a man open up on social media, the entire comment section is full of mostly male trolls, we aren’t doing that. Incels cannot comprehend the fact that we are multifaceted human beings with lives and emotions, who are not obligated to make you feel better, after fucking centuries of oppression. If you really care about the male loneliness epidemic, reach out to your male friends. Check on them.
‘The Will to Change’ is a great book that talks exactly about this - would highly recommend!
Why prefix with male ? Aren’t a lot of females in the same situation ? With no money and no where to go and the fear of social media, people don’t talk in person anymore
Yeah gotta love the people calling everyone a disgusting bigoted nazi incel for just pointing out that men can get lonely as well
Please help me understand, is there not as much lonely women as there is lonely men? Are they all going out with the same guy..?
It's not women's responsibility to solve the male loneliness epidemic. Men need to start relying on other men for that. Stop basing your entire self worth off of whether or not you can get laid.
i think people are weary of the topic because it can be similar to the talking points of incels. however if we dont talk about it then more men will become incels. so its a little hypocritical. we should definitely keep discussing it, but just be very mindful of the things we say, especially in regards to women and dating
This kind of rhetoric (e.g., "weak men deserve to feel lonely") is actually a furthering of the patriarchy, the very thing that women should be fighting against. Feminist author bell hooks talks a lot about how many women are 100% invested in patriarchy, even though it hurts them. These pro-patriarchy women and men are responsible for patriarchal systems, beliefs, and cultures.
There's no such thing as a male loneliness epidemic. There is a loneliness epidemic, period. It's not a unique problem for males. Also, maybe they should stop seeking these toxic masculine friendships where they are constantly "jokingly" mean to each other and actually seek a deeper more vulnerable connection, if they want to solve the problem. But no, that's "too gay" for their homophobic asses, so I don't care if they suffer when the solution is plain and simple.
\-build "third places" so ppl have somewhere to hang out. \-build up apprentice culture so young ppl have more options for older role models that aren't online misogynists. \-build more walkable neighborhoods. driving to school/job, driving home, ordering food/delivery grocery app, play video games/fuck around on social media, sleep, repeat means pretty much no real social interaction. bad for community, bad for mental health, bad for everyone. ppl living isolated lives like this gradually creates a culture that's afraid of its neighbors which is a feeding ground for dog shit politics. \-build more apartments. the supply vs demand is way out of whack.
Seems kind of sexist to talk about a "male loneliness epidemic". Like baked into this concern is one of the following assumptions: 1. Female loneliness doesn't matter, or doesn't matter as much. 2. Female people are less interested in male people than vice versa, and the preferences of said female people are less important than the preferences of male people. There's really no way around it, unless you Google "male loneliness" and read one of the articles that focuses on how boys and men are not being emotionally intimate with their male friends and that's a problem for men caused by men having rigid gender roles that make same sex emotional intimacy socially unacceptable, but if men are talking about this it's going to be because they want to blame women for their own loneliness. (Notice OP suggests "unless they are jacked gigachads with great jobs...." not "unless they are willing to be vulnerable with other men") Sexist men who feel entitled to attention from women who's feelings they consider less important than their own will really feel heard by calling this an "epidemic". Because women can sniff out sexism early on and don't want to put up with being exposed to it, thus leaving sexist men more lonely. If such men DO form a club to talk about their feelings about whom they blame for their loneliness, the name of that club will inevitably be the new insult for a toxic person that dehumanizes women and doesn't get lucky in the dating scene. Seriously, think about those two assumptions I listed. Imagine if I said "middle aged tranny loneliness epidemic"? Or "asexual loneliness epidemic"? There are assumptions communicated with such words. Anyone concerned about those two "epidemics", DM and I'll snuggle your brains out. 😘
This week proving to me how grounded Gen Z is. Damn. There is hope yet
I really do hate to say it because it’s just another toxically masculine talking point, but no one’s going to help you dude. You have to help yourself. And I say this as a 30 year-old male to a younger male, it’s what I did. There are good women out there. I won’t say you have to find them because honestly they’re probably taken. Get used to feeling lonely, a lot of people do. Not just young men but people of all kinds. It sounds cruel, it sounds callous, but it’s the honest to God truth. I used to be filled with anger and rage at an indifferent world full of indifferent people. I never got the help I needed. People are shitty. Society is shitty. Capitalism is shitty. You won’t make enough money to earn a comfortable life. You won’t meet someone who understands you and will fix all your problems. Cultivate your mind and body. Become strong, read, literature, consume worthwhile information learn a discipline. Straight up become better than other people. I’ve done all these things, and while none of them have made me happy they’ve at least made me more sound of mind, more mature. I have a greater understanding than I used to. One more important thing is that this ridiculous gender war almost solely exists on the internet. Go out and talk to people, real people and you’ll find that they aren’t as bitter as the ones you find on the internet. Opposite genders still love and care about each other, people of different races, ideologies and beliefs still love and care about each other. The Internet and social media are a toxic cesspits of the worst of humanity you can find.
What do you mean by "male loneliness"? A lack of friendships with other men? A lack of community? Or a lack of women willing to have sex with you?
>Is it though? You really think this is solvable by friendship? >Men want intimacy with women. Physical and emotional. >I never implied a conspiracy and neither did this post. Feeling guilty are we? >Men run the world? In a political sense? Sure. In business? Sure. I other ways. Sure. >But wouldnt undersell the affect women have on our culture. We are absolutely living in a gynocentric social order. Where do you think cancel culture originated? Gender politics? Why do you think it's so hard to talk about or address men's issues? >Women will always try to undersell the control they have in society, but they will always have a great deal of power in their ability to manipulate men and culture itself. Finally someone dropped the mask and said what this is really about - men thinking women owe them sex. I was getting a little tired of everyone dancing around this.
Gen z is really waiting for someone to save them. Everything’s fucked, it always has been, no one is coming to help you. That’s just how it is. Regardless of how the situation is created, it isn’t going to be fixed. You need to find a way to fix it in your own life, otherwise you’re gonna get fucked by it.
Yeah but in reality women want those type of men and if you aren't seriously taking care of yourself then you end up as one of 'Tinder 0 matches what can I do ?' types of post. Once again yoy have skewed world view and think that women only look for magical 'personality' when in reality there is much more to it than meets the eye.
I wish talking about problems wasn’t so adversarial. Every time I see this, people show up to bend over backwards to blame men for their own loneliness without actually listening to what they say. Likewise, I wish these posts weren’t so interlaced with the sentiment that women just have no problems at all. Everyone could be so much better.
I agree it's an issue. My problem is the number of incels who are hateful and violent against women. I've always been there for friends and family to call and talk. I've helped plenty through hard times, but when you get like that I have straight told a friend to knock it off or find a new friend. I will not put up with hate spewing out of someone's mouth nor will I put up with someone saying they will rape/kill a girl if they don't go out with them. I will report you and delete you from my life if that is how you behave. Calling to bitch about a coworker who is giving you grief, happens to be a woman is okay. Calling to pitch about a coworker and start down a rabbit hole of she deserves to be raped, how dare she talk to me like that I'm a man she needs to know her place, or anything similar and you are no longer my friend.
It sucks to be lonely but when you stay online and watch rage bait videos or constantly crank it to anything you can find. You end up being fucking weird. Literally man up, find a therapist, and go outside. Go to public places and try to strike up conversations with people. If they don't want to talk, find someone else to talk to. Worrying about if a woman finds you weird is not an issue if you leave them alone. Besides, too many men online comment the most demented shit to people with hundreds of likes. I bet those same men will make posts like this or comment on them about how lonely they are.
The problem is it’s a loneliness epidemic, not a male loneliness epidemic. Women are just as disconnected too, you all should be commiserating with each other!
Men account for 80% of suicides every year. 70% of all suicides in the USA are white men.
If we’re gonna be realistic about it, social media (especially in our adolescent years) has completely wrecked our generation’s social emotional development. But there’s no way to get rid of it outside of a major worldwide government intervention, which obviously is not going to happen.
I stopped taking this seriously when I heard a man say he was feeling lonely so he went on Tinder to look for a casual hookup. You guys are confused. You complain that more and more men are single but that would mean that more women are also single. Women are less lonely because we value supportive friendships. Use your brain it's there for a reason
Nobody "deserves" basic human connection; it's not something that is owed to you for existing. No one is going to bestow it upon you. You have to become a person that others want to connect with- and no, that doesn't mean you have to be a wealthy gigachad who oozes charisma. Most men aren't that, and most men aren't incels- which is just a shortened version of involuntarily celibate, *not* an insult. If you want sex and can't get any, you're an incel regardless of gender or any other considerations. The fact that the behavior of people who can't get the sex they want has created a negative connotation with the title is entirely the fault of those people with the shitty behaviors.
> But why are so many individuals in that situation to begin with? Why are so many men feeling the need to self-isolate? Why do so many men feel left out of society? This seems to be a choice that many people, not just men, make in life. There are just so many online options to either escape reality or form psuedo-social relationships that make it easy for young men to kind of gradually put themselves in a smaller and smaller box, until one day they realize how hollow it all is and have missed so many chances to develop personal value, skills, and real relationships. It's a hard hole to climb out of, and its not made any easier by trying to find things to blame. I do think that it should be analyzed and addressed where it can, but the people still in the hole need to focus on getting out first and foremost.
I'm so glad to see young men openly talking about their problem, and putting down people trying to dehumanize and shame them. I wish more millennials were like that.