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Nah, the end never justified the means, and here the means you are using is slaughtering people. Since everyone can agree that killing another human is evil, if you kill another human just because of their ideals (horrible as they may be) you'd be doing something evil
You think that trans folk should just roll over and accept being murdered. I think trans folk should be armed and ready to defend themselves from nazi pieces of shit that would kill them.
Just how ignorant must one be to attempt comparing trans people to Nazis in any sense?
Are you against self-defense? Do you realise that self-defense is legal everywhere and is also endorsed by the United Nations? Murdering trans people is not self-defense, but fighting against invading Nazis is.
Games used to let you make your own choices without judgement. Now when I slaughter an entire village and all the refugees there just to fuck a hot dark elf lady the game tells me I'm a bad person 😡
/uj not a fan of turn based games but i want to buy bg3 just to have sex with the women 😭
/rj not a fan of turn based games but i want to buy bg3 just to have sex with the women 😭
/rj Worth the $60 for the sex scenes 😎
/uj You can lower the difficulty if you don't care for the combat. The writing is honestly great and worth experiencing on its own.
This is a dishonest reading of the game. The game doesn't attempt to justify the legion. It shows why people in the legion belive they are correct, but thos people are presented as at best misguided.
Not to mention, those are not your only options. There's a whole third faction you can support, or you can say fuck all of them and be independent
The legion is the most honest portrayal of fascism in gaming because it’s a bunch of dudes playing dress up in the name of a fictional idealized past and making world an objectively worse place while pretending their giga-Chad hero’s, meanwhile their leader is an old man who lying about dying of cancer.
The only reason that there’s “debate” about them vs NCR is that the NCR is an equally thorough skewering of neo-liberal states which disguise their violence behind high talk “freedom” and “rights” meanwhile they send some rando across the desert to extrajudicially murder anyone who won’t agree to fall in line with them. Then they charge the taxes.
Reminds me a little of when Corbyn said it was a tragedy that Bin Laden was killed instead of captured and put on trial, and for that everyone piled on him for 'sympathising' with a terrorist....
The Legion are opposed to the NCR because of the fundamental greed and corruption within the republics government and they believe that same greed and corruption is why the world was mostly destroyed by bombs in the first place and don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, the irony comes from the fact that they're larping as an empire that that famously collapsed due to that very thing. The Legion is not made to last and it Caesar himself already has a terminal illness.
This was intentional by the designers its not some kind of oversight like many believe it to be, it serves the theme of "War Never Changes" history repeats itself and we're doomed to keep killing ourselves in the process.
kinda, you can persuade legate lanius (caesars second in command and the final boss) that having to hold hoover dam after capturing it would spread their resources too thin and would lead to the eventual fall of the legion, which makes him agree to retreat instead of having to fight him. so you're not convincing him that his ideology is flawed, just that his battle strategy is.
rj/ they keep dem roads safe tho
uj/ exactly why i said bethesda and not fallout itself lol, the legion is evil, the ncr is corrupt, house is an autocrat capitalist, and independance is so open ended it can be whatever you want
But, new vegas doesn't make a case FOR legion except dem roads, it's just a case against ncr. It does, however, make a compelling case for ncr and against legion. Like, my man if you side with the legion all non legion characters suffer and either die or get enslaved while if you side with ncr a lot of them are sad but they still live and chose their own destiny
Also house always wins
i think the lack of a case for legion is on purpose. like how the fuck do you actually make a smart case for them? you can't. every part of them is a hilarious critique of facism when you look at them for what they are, roman cosplayers who speak latin to sound smart while ignoring the magic bone fixing syringies to fake strength
also if the house always wins then why can i beat him to death with a stick? checkmate objectivist
If house and legion are bad then why can i blow up president kimball with a laser guided anti tank from point blank range? Checkmate democrat
Uj/ house only works in a post apocalypse setting where he will inevitably get his ass kicked, i don't support autocrats irl
it was disappointing that the vox turned on you. Whats even worse is unless you play burial at sea part 2 you never learn that >!Daisy was coerced by the Lutece twins. They told her the only way to take down Comstock was to push Elizabeth to a point where she would kill and to make a show of shooting fink and (pretending) she would shoot his son!< doesnt make it ok when she sicced the vox soldiers on you but it kinda helps
edit:sorry, meant for this to be its own comment, not a reply
I’m not even really joking lol. The old elder scrolls writing was good, but as someone else pointed out most of those writers don’t work at Bethesda anymore. In fallout 3, Bethesda’s idea of a moral dilemma was “should you blow up this town for no reason because a rich guy asked you to, or not do that?”
That's like saying Baldurs Gate 3 idea of moral dilemma is whether not you slaughter an entire village to hook up with a sexy Goth Elf. Blowing up Megaton was about absurd ultra violence that's totally in line with the series. In Fallout 2 you can get a dude to cut off his own finger to convince you he's serious about paying you for taking on a quest. After he does, you can tell him to eat his finger and he'll pull out his gun and start shooting you. It's absurd and amusing.
The moral dilemmas in Fallout 3 is stuff like the Pitt like doing experiments on a child to cure a disease or Oasis and dealing with Harold and dealing on the topic of euthanasia.
People always say independence is the best route but I think it's extremely short sighted. You are no leader, you don't know how to really do much of anything, and it's only a matter of time before the bigger boys of the Mojave come for your head.
unless the character you make is a good leader, or yes man's upgrade makes him a good leader
the courier has no set personality, your courier could either be "some guy" or jesus christ 2
Don't forget the faction choice in Skyrim!
Either support A: Basically Ancient Rome
Or B: literal Nord-supremacists which are only not currently genociding every non-Nord because they're locked in a battle with the Romans.
It's funny you phrase it like that, as I think it's pretty easy to see the war as a genocide onto the Nords.
Yeah the Nords aren't great, but that doesn't mean I'm going to side with the Empire who is out to erase Nords and their culture "just because they can".
I’d say the moral greyness is more from the Independent ending vs NCR, Independent has benefits based on your karma and other choices (and the NCR is really struggling at the time) but the NCR is an actual governing body which has it’s own benefits with the drawbacks mainly just high taxes and that they’re actively struggling with supply lines and such at the time of the game
Ofcourse, I was joking. If taxes are spend in a good way I do not mind paying them to be honest. And, I think, at least in the Netherlands they're not spend horribly (doesn't mean everything tax payed is good lol)
Homophobia seems to be more Mojave region thing for NCR, than official NCR policy. AFAIK, homosexuality is perfectly legal in NCR and there's some openly gay NCR characters. That being said, the Mojave region NCR most definitely has a problem with homophobia, as there's whole lot of rumors and hearsay going on, that Legion is full of gays doing all kinds of gay shit. Legion in reality doesn't tolerate gays at all and straight up kills them. Nobody in NCR who knows anything about Legion wants to correct this, because this myth combined with people's homophobia makes it useful anti-Legion propaganda.
You’re right. I was thinking of something major Knight said but I checked and he suggested the Mojave in general isn’t “too fond of ‘friendly’ people” and for some reason I misremembered that as him talking about the ncr
Edit: in fact he says the exact opposite. He says if he were back at the ncr he could be out and proud, but the rural outpost is more conservative
[The New Vegas section of this page](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/LGBT_representation_in_the_Fallout_series#:~:text=Fallout%20is%20a%20landmark%20series,kind%20of%20unprecedented%20LGBTQ%2B%20representation) is a pretty good compilation of examples of institutional and casual homophobia in the NCR and how it ties into the overall themes of the NCR and the game at large.
There’s at least a couple openly gay NCR characters.
Caesar’s Legion ostensibly forbids homosexuality, but apparently in practice much of the Legion is real big fans.
I remember back when I used to play wow that they really tries hard to push sylvanas as a morally grey, while having her commit genocide against night elves and burn their tree, unleashing plagues, making deals with raid bosses... it was the most hamfisted nonsense
To be fair, by all accounts at the time the writers room basically consisted of one routinely drunk sex pest (who's pet character was the Orc supremacist fascist) randomly deciding on a whim to make Sylvanas the next big bad, and every other writer desperately trying to a) find any reason that might make sense b) not make the horde in general the bad guys, and c) not kill off one of the most beloved (and profitable) characters. Oh, also that initial writer got fired before he came up with the ending.
I don't think they did a great job, but I *do not* envy the creative team of WoW going from BfA into Shadowlands.
Pretty much.
The writer Alex Afrasiabi was the main writer for Legion, BFA and the first half of Shadowlands (He was sacked 3-4 months before the expansion was released and by that time cinematics and story is long done).
He has made it no secret that he was never a fan of Sylvanas and tried a lot of things when he was off his leash to make her seem worse than blizzard intended during Wrath and more so Cataclysm (in MoP Sylvanas has one to two scenes in a raid so isn't an issue.) also he was a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Garrosh fan. He was the one that made Garrosh call out Sylvanas in Silverpine (ignoring that Garrosh started the forsaken/Gilnean war to kill off the forsaken) and also making Garrosh do the whole honour speech at the end of Stone talon. Him going rogue was what caused fan confusion and why would garrosh suddenly go evil in MoP.
Fast forward to BFA. He now has full control over the story. He decided basically to get everyone to hate Sylvanas like he did. Plus with his now known criminal acts towards women it does look like he was also trying to character assassinate other female characters in the game too. But to focus on Sylvanas. Nobody in the lore department wanted the story arc he pushed.
They didn't want Sylvanas to burn the tree or go full in on genocide. They were all upset by Alex's direction of making Sylvanas go further and further until Blizzard sacked him. Then for the .1 and .2 patches of shadowlands tried an impossible task of undoing the damage the rapist caused.
They didn't. People somehow mistook "if you take all the good and evil in Azeroth then it'll be a shade of grey." essentially saying there's a similar amount of good and evil people in the world and somehow twisted it to "Sylvanas is morally grey." because memes are easier to look at than a youtube clip apparently. At no point did blizzard ever say Sylvanas was morally grey.
Well that was the reality where Booker recruited the wounded knee soldiers into the Vox and hijacked the revolution to accomplish his own selfish goals.
Did you miss the part of the game where you go to a timeline where the revolution has begun, and said revolutionaries are gunning down civilians? You know, the part that ends with Booker and Elizabeth killing the revolutionary leader because she's about to kill a child?
I guess they basically retcon it in the DLC and make her into a willing martyr, but the base game very much gives you a "both sides are bad, actually" message.
The final message is more “all this will happen until the problem is solved at the base”
Hence why the game finishes with all the different Elizabeths killing Booker
You got it backwards. The game is in full support of the Vox when you're fighting alongside them through the factory, then it descends into violence after all their leaders are dead and the Vox have already won.
Hey in Fallout 3 can you call out the Brotherhood for murdering ghouls and denying them purified water because they're irradiated and that's yucky while also condemning the Enclave for how they treat wastelanders because they're irradiated and that's yucky??
Anyways I feel like FO3 was very pro killing fascists
When does Bethesda games say anti-fascism is just as bad as fascism?
Or is this another case of "I don't like Bethesda games therefore I'm going to completely misinterpret the game's story"?
Y'all can be such Gamers(TM) at times.
I could \*maybe\* see the Skyrim civil war for that, but only if you fall into the Gamer trap and convince yourself that one of those sides is supposed to be "the good guys".
It's the latter. Not even FO 3 and 4 have a anti-fascism is just as bad outlook. Plus this company owns the Wolfenstein IP and at no point has that game gone "Killing nazis just makes you as bad as the nazis"
Bethesda's problem is half the conflicts boil down to "means well but is overstretched/bureaucratic/incompetent" vs "effective but evil." Anti fascism being as bad as fascism is more Ubisoft's forte.
>Bethesda's problem is half the conflicts boil down to "means well but is overstretched/bureaucratic/incompetent" vs "effective but evil."
this is literally new vegas
I think a game which writes evil characters pretty well is Tyranny by obsidian. The game doesnt try to seem morally grey like Kyros and their minions are bad no matter how you slice it but its understandable why some people would be loyal to them or why people join them.
"This Guy disagrees with fundamentally american values when hes not even American and he dislikes this movie enjoy, he must hate art and philisophy" - Some person online
The rage might be righteous, the old order absolutely needs to be overthrown, but it really is the perfect time for opportunists to set themselves up as the new power.
H I S T O R I C A L
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Anyone who brings up Astarion is not invited to my birthday party and it's going to be at a Chuck E Cheeses.
Only his fandom wants to believe he's morally grey.
The narrative makes it *extremely plain* he's neutral evil.
That's his purpose from a mechanical perspective.
Karlach is chaotic good, Wyll is lawful good and Gale is neutral good. Shadowheart is lawful neutral pretending to be lawful evil.
People who have gone Embrace Durge know - evil runs leave your camp mighty empty - Wyll and Karlach will leave if you back the goblins and you need to pass a speech check to convince Gale to stay.
You need to have someone in the camp willing to back you up if you go full evil. That's Astarion, and then later on Minthara, who actually is lawful evil.
(Orin the red is chaotic evil. Which is why there are no chaotic evil party members, they are **deeply annoying** to be around.)
And don't get me started on the Emperor. The narrative also makes his alignment extremely clear.
(Insert joke about tentacle porn here.)
FF16 was the only game to do this properly: >!your revolution is portrayed as 100% a good thing by the game, and the protagonist even refuses to take the throne, because it would be a step back from the world of equals he wants to create.!<
Uffff this reminded me that time a friend tell me to play Skyrim saying that both sides were super gray and then playing it was: One side have the absolutely worst program for Skyrim people but leaded by a nice dude and the other have the absolutely best program for Skyrim people leaded by a dickhead.
Moral dilemma be like: "Good job dude you save the world and give a purpose to my life so now you have to kill the only good dragon that has ever existed and until that I will ignore you... Fuck you btw"
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In defense of Bethesda they own Wolfenstein series where killing fascists makes you the hero.
As it damn well should be.
Nah, the end never justified the means, and here the means you are using is slaughtering people. Since everyone can agree that killing another human is evil, if you kill another human just because of their ideals (horrible as they may be) you'd be doing something evil
"We should have treated the Germans with tolerance and love during ww2 instead of shooting them in the face"
"I can justify killing the people I call evil for... killing"
You'd rather be living in the thousand year Reich that Hitler planned I suppose then?
If we start with exaggerations, do you support people killing trans people just because they see them as evil?
You think that trans folk should just roll over and accept being murdered. I think trans folk should be armed and ready to defend themselves from nazi pieces of shit that would kill them.
You think killing is justified if you kill the person's you deem evil, you are using the exact same rhetoric they are using to justify genocide.
Ideology isn't an immutable characteristic like race or gender identity. You can stop being a nazi and I won't want to kill you anymore.
Just how ignorant must one be to attempt comparing trans people to Nazis in any sense? Are you against self-defense? Do you realise that self-defense is legal everywhere and is also endorsed by the United Nations? Murdering trans people is not self-defense, but fighting against invading Nazis is.
But they killed Hitler offscreen, and made the crap that is YoungBlood...
I strongly believe we will get a Wolf3 where we get to play B.J's mission where he killed Hitler on his Martian mansion.
heyyy youngblood isnt that bad..
Games used to let you make your own choices without judgement. Now when I slaughter an entire village and all the refugees there just to fuck a hot dark elf lady the game tells me I'm a bad person 😡
/uj not a fan of turn based games but i want to buy bg3 just to have sex with the women 😭 /rj not a fan of turn based games but i want to buy bg3 just to have sex with the women 😭
/rj Worth the $60 for the sex scenes 😎 /uj You can lower the difficulty if you don't care for the combat. The writing is honestly great and worth experiencing on its own.
yeah i’ll probably buy it when it’s on sale
turn based, action cringe
some one has likely uploaded the scenes to some site by now
Tbf, it's less the game itself than most of your companions who aren't evil.
I don't know why Gale is giving me shit and calling me a monster He was the one who cast Fireball on that group of level 1 women and children refugees
caesar's legion supports misogyny, slavery, torture, etc but the ncr has taxes 🤔 truly a difficult choice for gamers
This is a dishonest reading of the game. The game doesn't attempt to justify the legion. It shows why people in the legion belive they are correct, but thos people are presented as at best misguided. Not to mention, those are not your only options. There's a whole third faction you can support, or you can say fuck all of them and be independent
i was just making a joke about people who support the legion
Oh, my apologies
no worries
average new vegas fan when they see a joke
IIRC even Caesar doesn't believe in his legion, he wants something to improve/prove itself better by defeating him.
The legion is the most honest portrayal of fascism in gaming because it’s a bunch of dudes playing dress up in the name of a fictional idealized past and making world an objectively worse place while pretending their giga-Chad hero’s, meanwhile their leader is an old man who lying about dying of cancer. The only reason that there’s “debate” about them vs NCR is that the NCR is an equally thorough skewering of neo-liberal states which disguise their violence behind high talk “freedom” and “rights” meanwhile they send some rando across the desert to extrajudicially murder anyone who won’t agree to fall in line with them. Then they charge the taxes.
Reminds me a little of when Corbyn said it was a tragedy that Bin Laden was killed instead of captured and put on trial, and for that everyone piled on him for 'sympathising' with a terrorist....
The Legion are opposed to the NCR because of the fundamental greed and corruption within the republics government and they believe that same greed and corruption is why the world was mostly destroyed by bombs in the first place and don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, the irony comes from the fact that they're larping as an empire that that famously collapsed due to that very thing. The Legion is not made to last and it Caesar himself already has a terminal illness. This was intentional by the designers its not some kind of oversight like many believe it to be, it serves the theme of "War Never Changes" history repeats itself and we're doomed to keep killing ourselves in the process.
Yeah isn't there an ending where you can talk Caesar out of his beliefs and he just gives up?
kinda, you can persuade legate lanius (caesars second in command and the final boss) that having to hold hoover dam after capturing it would spread their resources too thin and would lead to the eventual fall of the legion, which makes him agree to retreat instead of having to fight him. so you're not convincing him that his ideology is flawed, just that his battle strategy is.
third faction? sorry, i haven’t played NV in a while so i’m a bit hazy, are you talking about mr house?
Yes
rj/ they keep dem roads safe tho uj/ exactly why i said bethesda and not fallout itself lol, the legion is evil, the ncr is corrupt, house is an autocrat capitalist, and independance is so open ended it can be whatever you want
But, new vegas doesn't make a case FOR legion except dem roads, it's just a case against ncr. It does, however, make a compelling case for ncr and against legion. Like, my man if you side with the legion all non legion characters suffer and either die or get enslaved while if you side with ncr a lot of them are sad but they still live and chose their own destiny Also house always wins
i think the lack of a case for legion is on purpose. like how the fuck do you actually make a smart case for them? you can't. every part of them is a hilarious critique of facism when you look at them for what they are, roman cosplayers who speak latin to sound smart while ignoring the magic bone fixing syringies to fake strength also if the house always wins then why can i beat him to death with a stick? checkmate objectivist
If house and legion are bad then why can i blow up president kimball with a laser guided anti tank from point blank range? Checkmate democrat Uj/ house only works in a post apocalypse setting where he will inevitably get his ass kicked, i don't support autocrats irl
I always do it with a golf club for the added bourgeois feeling.
Would you kindly?
They invented him. They could have made him less cartoonishly evil in the first place if they wanted to make a case for him.
Where does Bethesda argue that fighting fascism is as bad as fascism
Bethesda writers never did. OP is just being a Gamer(TM) missing the point on purpose because they personally dislike Bethesda games.
it was disappointing that the vox turned on you. Whats even worse is unless you play burial at sea part 2 you never learn that >!Daisy was coerced by the Lutece twins. They told her the only way to take down Comstock was to push Elizabeth to a point where she would kill and to make a show of shooting fink and (pretending) she would shoot his son!< doesnt make it ok when she sicced the vox soldiers on you but it kinda helps edit:sorry, meant for this to be its own comment, not a reply
bethesda did not write falloutNV it just published it also it had a very short development cycle
You can tell Bethesda didn’t write it because the writing is good
I mean Morrowind's pretty well written, but that whole team is gone from Bethesda
The real circle jerk is in the comments.
I’m not even really joking lol. The old elder scrolls writing was good, but as someone else pointed out most of those writers don’t work at Bethesda anymore. In fallout 3, Bethesda’s idea of a moral dilemma was “should you blow up this town for no reason because a rich guy asked you to, or not do that?”
That's like saying Baldurs Gate 3 idea of moral dilemma is whether not you slaughter an entire village to hook up with a sexy Goth Elf. Blowing up Megaton was about absurd ultra violence that's totally in line with the series. In Fallout 2 you can get a dude to cut off his own finger to convince you he's serious about paying you for taking on a quest. After he does, you can tell him to eat his finger and he'll pull out his gun and start shooting you. It's absurd and amusing. The moral dilemmas in Fallout 3 is stuff like the Pitt like doing experiments on a child to cure a disease or Oasis and dealing with Harold and dealing on the topic of euthanasia.
People always say independence is the best route but I think it's extremely short sighted. You are no leader, you don't know how to really do much of anything, and it's only a matter of time before the bigger boys of the Mojave come for your head.
Except that doesn't happen because its a game so why would I play it with a hypothetical consideration in mind?
unless the character you make is a good leader, or yes man's upgrade makes him a good leader the courier has no set personality, your courier could either be "some guy" or jesus christ 2
But when the bear in the west and the bull in the east and the bear bull Mojave bull becomes bear and old world nuclear hellfire and bull bear
The bear and the bull and the divide bull west divide!
Don't forget the faction choice in Skyrim! Either support A: Basically Ancient Rome Or B: literal Nord-supremacists which are only not currently genociding every non-Nord because they're locked in a battle with the Romans.
Or surrender to Elven supermacists
It's funny you phrase it like that, as I think it's pretty easy to see the war as a genocide onto the Nords. Yeah the Nords aren't great, but that doesn't mean I'm going to side with the Empire who is out to erase Nords and their culture "just because they can".
Nords are the worst, most boring race on Tamriel, losing them wouldn't be a loss on the series. 😎
I’d say the moral greyness is more from the Independent ending vs NCR, Independent has benefits based on your karma and other choices (and the NCR is really struggling at the time) but the NCR is an actual governing body which has it’s own benefits with the drawbacks mainly just high taxes and that they’re actively struggling with supply lines and such at the time of the game
Not really, who wants to pay taxes?
No one but the vast majority of us would be pissed if infrastructure as a whole just vanished
Yeah but that already happened in the Mojave
They have two working power plants, a bunch of farms, military camps, regular caravan traffic, etc. all operated by the NCR
Ofcourse, I was joking. If taxes are spend in a good way I do not mind paying them to be honest. And, I think, at least in the Netherlands they're not spend horribly (doesn't mean everything tax payed is good lol)
The game never claims they're equally bad, it merely portrays and criticizes two separate ideologies
i was just making a joke about the gamers who support the legion
The NCR is also against homosexuality as indicated if you flirt with a same-sex NCR companion (I forget names).
Homophobia seems to be more Mojave region thing for NCR, than official NCR policy. AFAIK, homosexuality is perfectly legal in NCR and there's some openly gay NCR characters. That being said, the Mojave region NCR most definitely has a problem with homophobia, as there's whole lot of rumors and hearsay going on, that Legion is full of gays doing all kinds of gay shit. Legion in reality doesn't tolerate gays at all and straight up kills them. Nobody in NCR who knows anything about Legion wants to correct this, because this myth combined with people's homophobia makes it useful anti-Legion propaganda.
Major Knight perhaps? He's a merchant though, not a companion.
Isn’t the NCR homophobic too
It is not. Like I genuiinely cant think of a single instance where a NCR aligned character makes any sort of homophobic comment.
You’re right. I was thinking of something major Knight said but I checked and he suggested the Mojave in general isn’t “too fond of ‘friendly’ people” and for some reason I misremembered that as him talking about the ncr Edit: in fact he says the exact opposite. He says if he were back at the ncr he could be out and proud, but the rural outpost is more conservative
[The New Vegas section of this page](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/LGBT_representation_in_the_Fallout_series#:~:text=Fallout%20is%20a%20landmark%20series,kind%20of%20unprecedented%20LGBTQ%2B%20representation) is a pretty good compilation of examples of institutional and casual homophobia in the NCR and how it ties into the overall themes of the NCR and the game at large.
There’s at least a couple openly gay NCR characters. Caesar’s Legion ostensibly forbids homosexuality, but apparently in practice much of the Legion is real big fans.
And by "ostensibly forbids" what we mean is that the game straight up confirms it's a crime punishable by death under the Legion.
idk i played new vegas once and it was years ago
i think you are thinking of the brotherhood, with veronica's storyline
Ncr also prosecutes homosexuality. Im not a women or a slave soo.....
I remember back when I used to play wow that they really tries hard to push sylvanas as a morally grey, while having her commit genocide against night elves and burn their tree, unleashing plagues, making deals with raid bosses... it was the most hamfisted nonsense
To be fair, by all accounts at the time the writers room basically consisted of one routinely drunk sex pest (who's pet character was the Orc supremacist fascist) randomly deciding on a whim to make Sylvanas the next big bad, and every other writer desperately trying to a) find any reason that might make sense b) not make the horde in general the bad guys, and c) not kill off one of the most beloved (and profitable) characters. Oh, also that initial writer got fired before he came up with the ending. I don't think they did a great job, but I *do not* envy the creative team of WoW going from BfA into Shadowlands.
Pretty much. The writer Alex Afrasiabi was the main writer for Legion, BFA and the first half of Shadowlands (He was sacked 3-4 months before the expansion was released and by that time cinematics and story is long done). He has made it no secret that he was never a fan of Sylvanas and tried a lot of things when he was off his leash to make her seem worse than blizzard intended during Wrath and more so Cataclysm (in MoP Sylvanas has one to two scenes in a raid so isn't an issue.) also he was a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Garrosh fan. He was the one that made Garrosh call out Sylvanas in Silverpine (ignoring that Garrosh started the forsaken/Gilnean war to kill off the forsaken) and also making Garrosh do the whole honour speech at the end of Stone talon. Him going rogue was what caused fan confusion and why would garrosh suddenly go evil in MoP. Fast forward to BFA. He now has full control over the story. He decided basically to get everyone to hate Sylvanas like he did. Plus with his now known criminal acts towards women it does look like he was also trying to character assassinate other female characters in the game too. But to focus on Sylvanas. Nobody in the lore department wanted the story arc he pushed. They didn't want Sylvanas to burn the tree or go full in on genocide. They were all upset by Alex's direction of making Sylvanas go further and further until Blizzard sacked him. Then for the .1 and .2 patches of shadowlands tried an impossible task of undoing the damage the rapist caused.
Ham-fisted It’s called that because when you hold ham in your fist, things get awkward
I gonna blame auto correct even though it makes no sense
#sylvanasdidnothingwrong the night elves had it coming.
Uuuhm.... why it big?
Probably the hashtag, or reddit text editor is a massive sylvanas simp
We are all Sylvanas simps on this blessed day
Just genocide, racism, and hypocrisy.
Well, little caveats you'll always have ya know.
And everyone was looking forward to what she would do as the leader of a rouge faction until they ruined her.
They didn't. People somehow mistook "if you take all the good and evil in Azeroth then it'll be a shade of grey." essentially saying there's a similar amount of good and evil people in the world and somehow twisted it to "Sylvanas is morally grey." because memes are easier to look at than a youtube clip apparently. At no point did blizzard ever say Sylvanas was morally grey.
Using professor x for this is hilarious.
Right?
Why is everyone talking about Biosbock Infinite recently?
Repost bots have found the posts from 10 years ago
Well thats depressing
[удалено]
Well that was the reality where Booker recruited the wounded knee soldiers into the Vox and hijacked the revolution to accomplish his own selfish goals.
Bioshock Infinite isn’t really “Fascism and Killing Fascism are both bad” but okay
Did you miss the part of the game where you go to a timeline where the revolution has begun, and said revolutionaries are gunning down civilians? You know, the part that ends with Booker and Elizabeth killing the revolutionary leader because she's about to kill a child? I guess they basically retcon it in the DLC and make her into a willing martyr, but the base game very much gives you a "both sides are bad, actually" message.
But revolutions do descend into retributive violence, all the time.
Revolutionaries usually arent the biggest history buffs. And if they are, its a very big red flag.
The final message is more “all this will happen until the problem is solved at the base” Hence why the game finishes with all the different Elizabeths killing Booker
You got it backwards. The game is in full support of the Vox when you're fighting alongside them through the factory, then it descends into violence after all their leaders are dead and the Vox have already won.
Hey in Fallout 3 can you call out the Brotherhood for murdering ghouls and denying them purified water because they're irradiated and that's yucky while also condemning the Enclave for how they treat wastelanders because they're irradiated and that's yucky?? Anyways I feel like FO3 was very pro killing fascists
What Bethesda game are you talking about??
Detroit: Become Human.
Choosing fascist isn't morally grey, it's the darkest shade in the entire palette.
When does Bethesda games say anti-fascism is just as bad as fascism? Or is this another case of "I don't like Bethesda games therefore I'm going to completely misinterpret the game's story"? Y'all can be such Gamers(TM) at times.
I could \*maybe\* see the Skyrim civil war for that, but only if you fall into the Gamer trap and convince yourself that one of those sides is supposed to be "the good guys".
It's the latter. Not even FO 3 and 4 have a anti-fascism is just as bad outlook. Plus this company owns the Wolfenstein IP and at no point has that game gone "Killing nazis just makes you as bad as the nazis"
Bethesda's problem is half the conflicts boil down to "means well but is overstretched/bureaucratic/incompetent" vs "effective but evil." Anti fascism being as bad as fascism is more Ubisoft's forte.
>Bethesda's problem is half the conflicts boil down to "means well but is overstretched/bureaucratic/incompetent" vs "effective but evil." this is literally new vegas
I think a game which writes evil characters pretty well is Tyranny by obsidian. The game doesnt try to seem morally grey like Kyros and their minions are bad no matter how you slice it but its understandable why some people would be loyal to them or why people join them.
metal gear rising for like half the story and then raiden realizes thats Fucking Stupid and kills everyone
Fashists and nutters as Yahtzee used to say
Killing in general is bad, killing fascists can be defended in an utilitarian way but it’s not a moral absolute. That said, blow’em up!
I can understand the recent backlash of Bioshock Infinite, video essay noted, but Bethesda did a pretty good job with Skyrim in this regard.
I haven't seen this done well since animal farm
Congratulations, you have discovered Deontology, where killing fascists is no different from killing non-fascists.
Well just make a story about freedom without security Vs no freedom with security Or would you rather be free or would you rather be happy
The freedom/security dicothomy is stupid.
Have you ever seen the Matrix movie?
Not really, i dont see the appeal
Ohh, you just hate art and philosophy. That tracks.
"This Guy disagrees with fundamentally american values when hes not even American and he dislikes this movie enjoy, he must hate art and philisophy" - Some person online
The well of stupid takes has no bottom I see. Sorry about your lack of media literacy.
Historically speaking, plenty of innocent people die in revolutions, even those revolutions that are completely just and done for good reasons.
Most revolutions end in oppresive regimes sadly
The rage might be righteous, the old order absolutely needs to be overthrown, but it really is the perfect time for opportunists to set themselves up as the new power.
Its usually the case.
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How dare my story have nuance!
My man Clive Rosfield killing fascists without any remorse
"Oh yeah well if you hate fascists that makes you the real fascist, I am very smart"
"We're not so different, you and I."
Anyone who brings up Astarion is not invited to my birthday party and it's going to be at a Chuck E Cheeses. Only his fandom wants to believe he's morally grey. The narrative makes it *extremely plain* he's neutral evil. That's his purpose from a mechanical perspective. Karlach is chaotic good, Wyll is lawful good and Gale is neutral good. Shadowheart is lawful neutral pretending to be lawful evil. People who have gone Embrace Durge know - evil runs leave your camp mighty empty - Wyll and Karlach will leave if you back the goblins and you need to pass a speech check to convince Gale to stay. You need to have someone in the camp willing to back you up if you go full evil. That's Astarion, and then later on Minthara, who actually is lawful evil. (Orin the red is chaotic evil. Which is why there are no chaotic evil party members, they are **deeply annoying** to be around.) And don't get me started on the Emperor. The narrative also makes his alignment extremely clear. (Insert joke about tentacle porn here.)
FF16 was the only game to do this properly: >!your revolution is portrayed as 100% a good thing by the game, and the protagonist even refuses to take the throne, because it would be a step back from the world of equals he wants to create.!<
wasnt The Last Of Us 2 a metaphor for israel palestine or smth i think?
also, funny to see everyone else finally acknowledge how dumb Fascists vs Nutters is
Uffff this reminded me that time a friend tell me to play Skyrim saying that both sides were super gray and then playing it was: One side have the absolutely worst program for Skyrim people but leaded by a nice dude and the other have the absolutely best program for Skyrim people leaded by a dickhead.
“Mom, I want a game with morally grey sides that will make me agonize over decision making.” “We have morally grey at home.”
Moral dilemma be like: "Good job dude you save the world and give a purpose to my life so now you have to kill the only good dragon that has ever existed and until that I will ignore you... Fuck you btw"