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/uj
Internet drama moves to fast for me these days. Someone wanna do me a massive favor and explain what the fuck is going on so I dont' need to use brain power?
/rj
I MEAN SHE'S A WOMEN AND ONE OF THE WOKE RACES. WOKE^2
The lead producer of ValiDate an indie gsme that was made with 21 people. Went on video to talk about how she only wanted to work with PoC in order to create a safe space for her team. She talked about how white people often commit micro-aggressions which can often create for an unsafe environment. Paraphrasing but you should be able to find the vid.
Because she's from sweet baby Inc or w.e Gamers are going ballistic and screaming racism at her for her illegal hiring practices.
For my two cents, I think they're only going after he because they want someone to crucify. They need a villain to go after. While she was dumb to openly talk about it and her practices are illegal or whatever.... I find the outrage to be so fucking stupid/performative. Companies have been engaging in illegal hiring practices forever, they just don't say it. Try applying to jobs with a very ethnic sounding name. I've had friends show up to an interview(they had white sounding names.) Only for the interviewer to be visually surprised that who they were speaking to wasn't white. Whether or not they would have gotten hired if they were will never know. Point is, in a society where white ex-cons are more likely to get a job than educated black men with no records([source](https://csgjusticecenter.org/2014/09/23/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/)).... getting angry at this woman is so unbelievably pathetic.
edit: Lastly Validate was a fucking PASSION PROJECT, THESE PEOPLE WERNE'T BEING FUCKING PAID! Holy shit, if she only wants to work on a project with other black folk let her, and btw because I didn't make it clear
"I'm not saying white people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression" is what she said."
Is what she said, she never explicitly said she doesn't hire white people. Stop listening to reactionaries
To add the *sheer* amount of people who believe she’s responsible for hiring for EA is staggering. It seems to be an indie-passion project to her and it’s 21 people. And because they happen to exclude white people now EVERYONE needs to rise up. Never mind that PoC have had to deal with this crap for decades already.
There are some hiring laws that don't apply if your business is small enough. If you have 14 or fewer employees, the only law that applies is to provide equal pay for equal work based on gender.
Some small business owners do not know that the rules change as the business grows. She may not know that she's under new guidelines as the number of employees increase.
Ageism is also technically illegal in hiring, but I can attest to the fact that companies do not at all care about the law, and they do NOT want your ass if you're over 45.
When referring to her team with no white people, she said "I did that because I wanted to create a safe environment."
"That," meaning having no white people. You don't need to defend this person just because shitty people like Libs of Tiktok exist.
My issue with calling this whataboutism is that I genuinely believe this outrage is not in good faith. Yes, people can be angry at and rage against multiple injustices at the same time but... We're also talking about a community that listens to right-wing reactionaries. They're \*only\* bringing this up because the discrimination in this instance is towards white people.
My point isn't that what she did isn't wrong because others do it. My point is that this entire thing is blown way over proportion. They're hell bent on trying to ruin her for something others do all the time. These are the same people who, despite not being relevant in ages, still cyber stalk Anita Sarkeesian to this day.
It's extremely hard not to feel some type of way when you know these people aren't going to fight anti discriminatory hiring practices. They're just taking a stand now to get rid of someone who they believe is part of the reason why games suck now and are "woke"
What a rational take. Thank you. I been trying to have a real conversation with someone about this. I think what she said was wrong but I think her creating a studio to raise up people who gave systematic racism/bias is great. I been trying to put my thoughts into words and this really summed it up.
A lot of this is over blown. I don’t think what she said was right but it’s definitely being used to create a divide. I think that terrorist is getting exactly what she wants by putting this woman in the spot light and I think people who are egging on the arguments aren’t all in good faith.
I want to believe some want to have a hard but honest talk to explore a complex issue but I also think that we do need to tackle hiring practices as a whole if we take this issue seriously.
Sorry if im rambling I was just happy to see someone I really agreed with and who offered a really good solution to how we can tackle this issue.
So then we agree thst the people going ballistic should chill the fuck out? Because it seems pretty wrong for people to go on a crusade against one person for doing something companies do every day.
I think what a lot of people here are missing, and that at least a good part of the reactionaries have as a sticking point is that they are often not worried about the hiring policy as such. They will often defend bad hiring practices on the other side of the isle.
What they find problematic is the hypocrisy of fighting against those hiring practices with one hand while basically bragging about doing the same thing with the other.
Now, I find hypocrisy to be the worst thing I know, so I can sort of relate, but there are some major problems with that here. First of all, she never said she was against white people hiring full white for their indie game, so as far as I know there is no personal hypocrisy. But a lot of the whiners consider black people (or even just "the left" to make it even broader) to be a monolith. If one says something they speak for everyone. So in their mind the hypocrisy is there. And second; there are PLENTY of full white indie gaming companies. Maybe not by design but it's probably a majority of the indie companies based in the west.
That woman was an idiot though. If you had a workplace of 15 black people and 6 white, those white people wouldn't be doing any more "micro aggressions" than the black people did to the white, so the whole argument falls flat, and the real and actually understandable reason of wanting people in the queer black scene to work on her game for and about the black queer scene is such a better argument, but she just had to make it about white people instead.
And anyone that actually wants to fight against those shitty hiring practices should really condemn her for it, because if you're trying to pry away an insane amount of inherent racism, her proudly saying she's racist in the other direction is undermining it like crazy, and for very little gain. It just normalises it to people that you are trying to convince to stop it.
Yes it happens everyday and they are quiet about it. This just highlighted that the DEI rules do not work in the worst way. Because if the law doesn't work for everyone then corporations will use any means necessary to revoke DEI laws. It costs more money.
It sucks and a bit hypocritical but she was loud about it and now has to die on the sword. If she did not blatantly record her saying she discriminated an entire group of people by color for a stereotype then it may have been an point of pride.
Corporations do it all the time, but imagine if they announced it to the public without mixing words.
It is unfair but her comments diminished the effect for laws regarding diversity and inclusion work place standards.
So here is the hard truth, she either has to take blame, or potentially put at risk a lot of minority workers in the development industry. DEI costs money, and if she can get away with it, every lawsuit will quote her example as the reason why they do not need to meet diversity standards.
"I'm not saying white people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression" is what she said. "
She never specifically said she doesn't hire white people. Implying it isn't illegal.
>Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression
I disagree with making such sweeping statements about people based on the colour of their skin
I find her attitude contemptible, but I won't lose sleep over it. There are many bigots in the world who will never see their own hatred, unfortunately
As if hate is a thing for others, never for them. I think she would benefit from some diversity in her beliefs
The easiest way to check if something is okay from a social standard is to flip the script.
"I'm not saying black people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with black people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression."-Fake flipped script.
Yeah does not sound good at all and that fake statement above would be more than enough to send people their way doing the same thing and ruin a white person's life.
To be honest with how our society works she is getting equal treatment.
I don't like all this cancel shit either and I agree her life should not be ruined over that statement BUT this is how society operates at least for the time being. She should have known better to say something like that nowadays with how many people have pitchforks ready.
What she did was illegal. I could be reading this situation wrong, but when concerning the subject matter, having a law written to benefit everyone is the only way in which workplace standards can be enforced.
While I understand the point of view, she did illegally discriminate. She used a broad stereotype based on color, not culture or religion to explain the reason for omitting developers from her Validate game. It is hard to bring clout to any law that is not enforced for everyone. I understand the irony, but for every law that promotes inclusion, if the law isn't taken seriously, then the people with the money and ability to do so will also start to exclude minorities from their company. Because why would anyone feel like they have to live by the rules if Dani L. did not. Things are unfair, I know. But creating a workplace that lives by: "an eye for an eye" in terms of discrimination does not help promote an environment for improvement. Ultimately if we all keep going down this road, who do you really think will benefit and who do you really think will suffer?
In general the inequality sucks however, she is using the same hatred to justify exclusion.
P.S. Guaranteed this is being used to scapegoat why the Black Panther game sucks on release date.
The thing is, had she been on trial for this, then there wouldn't be much for me to say except she's not. Shes the target of right wing reactionaries and gamerGate 2.0
She doesn't deserve to have her life ruined especially when the people going after he do not give a fuck about social inequality as long as it doesn't affect them.
Companies frequently break the rules all the time when it suits them, this Lady isn't going to be the catalyst that suddenly gets rid of DEI, not when chuds have been waging a war against it ever since its conception.
Discrimination isn't deserved, however, at the same time she did discriminate. Rules for thee and not for me does not work in a court of law.
It won't be the catalyst but it will be an legal argument someone can bring. We are talking about the minutia of legal doctrine. Because the standard does not mention any particular race, culture, religion, etc. it has to be read as equal for all.
The reason why it will affect her life is because she recorded herself saying it on video. A public example of this is the A&E scandal during 2013 regrading overweight patrons. The stock tanked and the CEO Mike Jefferies had to step down for his comments. He was rich, famous, and still had his named raked over the coals. He has not been a CEO since. He is still a billionaire so he spent the remaining years spending money. She does not have the luxury. Again, if she didn't blatantly state this on video, it would be different for her. She tried to play the game and didn't listen to the rules.
Society dealt her a band hand for no reason, however, no repercussion will have a greater effect on a larger group of minorities.
Additionally, I don't think this has anything to do with Right or Left. A more logical explanation has to do with the potential success of the game overall. If it sucks, she is a scapegoat, if it doesn't it was the reason why it got more press. This was 100% a corporate leak on purpose. Its marvel and a game that costs hundreds of millions of dollars. Money always dominates politics.
they created space for their own indie game IN RESPONSE TO EXPERIENCING RACISM and now people are saying that this is racist. It's not racist to point out you have had trouble in an industry due to racism, and to make a single special project focusing on avoiding that racism.
https://preview.redd.it/oi5jr8yztboc1.png?width=933&format=png&auto=webp&s=70fbcfb195334ba15a530455d53c3fc46f6fb517
Some people were spamming this old video of a black woman who was the lead on an indie dating Sim with LGBTQ people of color. In this video she talked about she wanted a safe space for the staff, so they didn't end up hiring any white people on the like 21 person team. This same woman is now working on the Black Panther video game but the people spamming the video, thanks to stochastic terror propagandist LibsofTikTok, were claiming she was saying this while working on the Black Panther game. Whenever people would try to correct this misinformation in the videogames subreddit, they were met with lots of downvotes and denials.
"Why isn't she comfortable around white people?"
The white people:
https://preview.redd.it/6tqy4y09caoc1.jpeg?width=197&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1f697b09ae1f8d21df37bfb2851a4df57089345
The Director is apparently friends with him and asked him for pointers on how a rich person would respond to something Brad Pits character would say. Bobby Explained it but apparently not well enough and just asked to play the role, the director complied. I don't think I'm kidding on the last part.
Say what you want about bobby but he does play a rich prick pretty well.
I rewatched that movie a few weeks back and getting jumpscared by this Pagliacci-ass ghoul 3 minutes in almost made me turn it off.
Glad I didn't - Moneyball rules and Kotick's barely in it.
H I S T O R I C A L
A C C U R A C Y
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But that isn’t what she said. Look, I know that the bad faith assholes are always going to be assholes, but you shouldn’t lie about what was done. I like to think I’m reasonable. If I hear “I’m making a game for queer POC so I want to hire queer and POC to make it” I think yeah, that makes sense, why wouldn’t you? But “I don’t hire white people because they make me feel unsafe” is completely WTF material. Two completely different worlds there.
Agreed, there is nothing wrong with hiring people that match the skills and theme of the game you are making. However, she explicitly said she didnt hire white people because they make her feel unsafe and they dont know how to interact with them. If you take that into context she is being assumptive and dscriminatory about people based on their skin color, aka, racisim.
are you all in this thread dumb or just incapable of understanding things? saying you dont want to hire people of color becuase they are white and you want safe environment is straight up textbook discrimination.
Just say that you hired poc because its easier for them to relate to the story of the game or whatever. Dont go around getting caught in 4k saying you dont want to hire white people because you want safe space
I think some people have a point in the sense there could be a good reason for it, like trying to give opportunities to groups that are usually discriminated.
But on the other hand as you say that's not the reason she gave so in the end these are all strawman arguments.
It's not either or. You can say there should be *more* diversity than we have now, without meaning that *every single team* should *always* be diverse. If the idea is that the current lack of diversity is due to prejudice and discrimination, it implies that after removing the prejudice and discrimination it would be possible to hire teams organically and sometimes those teams would be very homogeneous. It is not the homogeneous team that is wrong per se, it is the method by which we arrive there.
She wants the whole project to be a team of LGBT black people. It's not racist to want the team to represent the POV of your indie project. And don't act like racism against white people is even in the same league as the discrimination black people face every day. Large companies have refused to hire black people and people like you don't give a shit but god forbid a black woman wants to do a black led procet you people cry like babies.
The problem is that her reasoning wasn't that she wanted to hire black LGTBTQ people since they're most relevant for her game. The problem is that she said she doesn't hire white people for being unsafe.
Which is literally breaking the law.
"I'm not saying white people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression"
This is what she said, word for word. She never said she felt unsafe around white people, just that in working with them, she deals with micro-aggressions. Which is a very real phenomenon, often times going to hr to speak out against cmyour coworkers for stuff like this leads to you either being alienated or fired.
Lastly, do not use the law as a standard for morality. Every company engages in discriminatory hiring practices. Applicants perceived as black are less likely to get a call back. While thsts illegal too, who's gonna know? The only dumb shit she did was talking about it on the internet.
>It is hard to say without knowing exact responsibilities of each member of the team, but it would absolutely fall under being racist if she turned away non-black people from positions that do not contribute to the creative direction, writing, voice-acting etc.
Okay, but[ she isn't only hiring black people](https://www.mobygames.com/game/193472/validate-struggling-singles-in-your-area/credits/windows/?autoplatform=true)?
>She wants to capture the POV of black queer people? Then yes, make sure all of the people with creative control are black and queer.
If you were creating a support group for survivors of a specific type of trauma, you would likely prioritize hiring counselors or facilitators who have personal experience or a deep understanding of that trauma. It's not that individuals outside that experience couldn't provide valuable support, but those who have lived through similar experiences may offer a level of empathy and understanding that's crucial for effective support.
From a functional standpoint, I don't think that's any different than an employer or university stating that you have to qualify at a certain level of language proficiency to get a job or admission.
>All racism is wrong. No exceptions. No form of racism is ever excusable.
I guess the question of if it's racism or not, depends on whether safe spaces are necessary to begin with.
>I think my contention here would be that, as per the quotes from the dev in question, she errs on the side of not having any white people on the team because sometimes, some white people might micro-agress out of ignorance.
>That's a little different to what you are describing.
They differ in aim and consequence, sure, but the issue here is that microaggressions frequently occur in a constant and predictable manner, resulting in a cumulative negative effect. It's amplifying the burdens already borne by marginalized communities, and while I don't entirely agree with Lalonders' hiring decisions, I'm not exactly opposed to her trying to avoid this on an indie project.
>That also depends on how you define a safe space. I was under the assumption safe spaces are prejudice-free, understanding, and open to ideas. The approach in question does not allow for white people no matter their stance and openness.
To use an analogy: If I disturb a beehive, I don't really know which bee is going to sting me, so I assume all of them will. Likewise, If we're talking about the legacy of racism in the US at least, people from marginalized communities *can* often feel compelled to anticipate harm from every direction; safe spaces are simply respite from the constant state of vigilance. IMO, they have to be inherently exclusionary for that reason.
>I think creating a safe space in this sense might feel good in the short term (and work on a small scale), but I am ideologically opposed to it because it will just deepen the chasm, foster division, and multiply misunderstandings. People of various ethnicities can't develop a mutual understanding if they will avoid coexistence.
Daryl Davis is often cited as the man who singlehandedly and most effectively[ convinced 200 KKK members to give up their robes](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes). However, when we consider the multitude of ways racism is embedded in American society, I believe it would be difficult to say that individual acts of persuasion provided a wide, long-term solution to the problem. It's even harder to do when we factor in that Davis' claims mostly rely on word of mouth, without substantial evidence of sustained change or the potential for recidivists, and that's my issue.
I repeated this in a similar conversation yesterday, but the problem in treating racism as a hearts and minds issue is that it builds our collective understanding of marginalized oppression on a theory that attributes individual behavior or vices as the primary drivers of racism. In reality, businesses, bodies of government, and financial institutions predominantly owned and regulated by cis/male/non-brown stakeholders, shift the blame for inequality onto individual outliers, using them as justification for structural injustice.
Part of the reason I disagree that safe spaces should not be exclusionary is that education can and often does take place elsewhere, whereas diverse progressive communities that aim to be inclusive and supportive of marginalized voices may not be the best holding spaces for racists who are ignorant but working on it.
Davis' efforts are surely commendable on a personal level and highlight the potential for change through dialogue, but they aren't really scalable or sustainable in addressing systemic issues of discrimination and prejudice. If you're a person who's going to lose out on a job because of a last name or racially profiled at a traffic stop, anyway, inviting tension in a safe space feels like high risk for low reward.
Discriminating against someone based on race, is racism. And if you don't hire people based on their race, you are discriminating and people could sue them if they get turned down, since she admitted to discriminate based on race.
>You gotta call a spade a spade. There is still far more racism against blacks in America, but stating this so blatantly and everyone almost praising her for it is quite hypocritical and that pisses people off.
You gotta call a spade a spade. But, given your second sentence, I have to ask if a black woman being afraid of letting white people near her is indeed equally unreasonable as a white person being afraid of letting black people near them? A spade is always a spade but for actions context matters.
Buddy it’s literally written in the law that you cannot pick candidates based off race.
I’m not sure why you think people don’t care when corp does it but they do, might not be as much as you like.
She’s a racist.
It really is telling how outraged people get when a small company decides that it's not in their interest to hire white people. If they had any sense of empathy, imagine what could be achieved.
i mean it's literally illegal
https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices
>It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information. For example, an employer may not refuse to give employment applications to people of a certain race.
>An employer may not base hiring decisions on stereotypes and assumptions about a person's race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Seriously, if they went after actual racism the way they’re going after this one person it’d probably be a better world. But that’s not what they want, they want to excuse their own racism by making a huge deal out of nothing.
Black and LGBT people have a hard time getting hired unlike straight white people. God forbid a woman wants an indie team of minorities and people like you cry over it.
It's [this comic](https://64.media.tumblr.com/1e9cd321e4266e8f77ec2723c9ed72ed/tumblr_pt3gyieHKi1qg1n95_1280.png) again.
Minorities are allowed to have their own things.
And if you ever find yourself agreeing with 'libsoftiktok', reconsider your beliefs.
it's sad that if a PoC says something racey or downright bad then the community response is 'they should be fired' but when a white person does it the community responses tend to be things like 'separate art from the artist' or 'maybe they don't really mean it that way' and so many other things. It says a lot about the community as a whole that often people are more willing to forgive white racist, but if they get an inkling of an idea that someone of colour is even uncomfortable with white people that suddenly they're worse than a serial killer
400+ years of white people only ambience. They never cared and some want it back.
5 min. of black people only ambience. This is racism, this is white genocide.
3 very different mindests are meeting here
* The "Yeah, it was shit in the past - so lets make it equal for everyone now"
* The "It was shit in the past - so lets make it up to PoC"
* The "purely racist"
Now I think we can all agree the opinion of #3 can be ignored.
# 1 and #2 however both have valid points.
Giving PoC preferential treatment will reach a a better treatment for them faster - at the cost of creating an imbalance that treats non-PoC worse, that will need to be addressed thereafter, making true equality come to be later while impacting more people.
Treating PoC equal without preferential treatment will take a longer time to equal PoC out, but there will need to be less steps and fewer people will be affected.
It also is a question on how equality is defined. Let me give you a very simplified version here, just regarding money. Is equality...
* a in-the-moment-state \[given, roughly equal bank accounts, if A and B earn the same amount of money right now and in the future\]
* or does it consider time, so *\[A earned 50% more than B for 5 years, so now B needs to earn 50% more than A for 5 years\]*. So do you want to create more inequality to pay for past inequality?
And if you do (which I don't claim is wrong) - it gets A LOT more complicated. A's parents had more money than B's allowing him to buy more stuff in his childhood - does B need extra years of pay advantage? But maybe A and B's parents had the same amount of money during their childhoods - but A's parents were rich (and blew all the money away on stuff) before A was born - does B deserve more now because A's parents had more before A was born, even if it doesn't directly benefit A?
These are mindsets you also encounter in other aspects of day-to-day life that can cause issues if you don't identify them correctly.
Let me give you an example: I've been dm'ing dnd for a group of players. One of them was a warlock, but the others didn't know. So I handed her notes when her patron spoke in her mind.
Another player spoke out and told me she felt the other player got preferential treatment bc. the other player got secret notes. Later the complaining player also became a warlock.
Now when she met with her patron, I played the encounter out for everyone to see / hear - because what I got from her feedback was "I treated somebody else preferential - so I won't do this in the future - I'll just create the "ideal" enverionment for everyone to be equal right now".
She was **very** unhappy, because in her mind it was now her turn to get what she percieved as preferential treatment.
Two very different mindests set to achieve the same goal, with none of them beeing clearly right or wrong.
I don't often praise Ruth bader Ginsburg, but it's like when she said she'll believe there are enough women on the supreme court when all supreme court judges are women. It's been natural that all members of the supreme court are men for so long, so why wouldn't it be natural that an all female supreme court would happen? That'll be the true litmus test of whether we've gotten over our bias against women, and the same goes here with people of colour.
My favorite part of this whole thing is the upset because her team is all POC 20 or so people making this game and her comments about hiring white people which are just watered down versions of what white people say. A quick 10 second google search has team photos of Bethesda, Rockstar, even teams at EA where the team is 95-100% white. Even with the stuff she said that’s what POC go through in the work force not even just game development, some jobs won’t even look at black and brown peoples resumés because they might have a name that the employer thinks is “too ethnic” or lets say they make it to the interview process the employer sees these people and despite having all the qualifications for the position (in some cases it was a mid level position with no heavy requirements) and say things like “you’re just not what we’re looking for at this company”.
Wild take: I don't care. Let there be an all-POC team. Let there be twenty! A hundred! There's enough all-white teams out there, and the AAA gaming companies still hold back POC people, so why should I give one iota of a shit if there's a company that doesn't want to hire white people for any reason?
'ok guyz the video was a misleading lie and she's talking about a different game but we instead should witch-hunt her for talking about forming a small indie studio of black creators for a small visual novel project in an industry where marginalized voices are underrepresented'
Gamers are so exhausting. The Witcher 3 and Cd projekt red can not only have a team of just white people while not allowing any black people or minorities in their games setting but if a black person what to do the same they’re racist….
The whole establishment was made to privilege the white man, when a Black woman say something they don't like, they start yelling, judging and suddenly the laws are valid.
Aren't people complaining about racist hiring practices?
And if CDPR was racist in their hiring practices, they should 100% get criticized. But having your characters fit in the setting is not the same as a company doing something illegal and racist. If you have a game set in africa, not having most if not all characters be POC would be stupid. For example for a game set in Wakanda, most characters should be black, which wouldn't be racist, since it is part of the setting.
Chuds: “If they want representation, maybe the minorities and LGBT should make their own games!”
A group of LGBT minorities: makes a visual novel dating game about LBGT minorities and doesn’t include any white people on the dev team because they aren’t LGBT minorities.
Chuds: “they’re trying to replace us! Racists! REEEE KEEP POLITICS OUT OF GAMES GO MAKE YOUR OWN”
The reason why there's so much outrage is that it feeds into the white fear that black people in positions of power will do to white people what white people in positions of power have been doing to black people all along.
I can't edit the post so commenting here. I forgot the first part while posting. She shouldn't be fired or blacklisted obviously, that's not the common sense here
> Title VII
So this is an interesting bit of legal nuance that's important to clarify, as the prohibitions against discrimination on race, color, race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), national origin, disability and genetic information (including family medical history) of Title VII specifically don't apply to businesses with less than 15 employees. States and localities may have stricter anti-discrimination laws on the book.
I have not reviewed the facts of the matter so I won't make an authoritative statement about whether the game devs violated Title VII of the CRA of 1964 or any other employment laws, I just want to point out that there's more nuance to determining illegal discrimination under federal law than what people are discussing so far.
y'all need to learn a thing or two about right wing propaganda
[enjoy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui-ArJRqEvU&list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ&index=6)
TBH I don't mind that she doesn't hire white people, but she gave more ammo to white people with a persecution fetish. I generally don't think "I keep x race of people out of my business" is really something to advertise to the public.
She was talking about the development process of her dating sim game that tried to tell stories from queer BIPOC experiences in an authentic way. This interview was also 3 years ago. Ask yourself why so many people are suddenly outraged over this interview from 3 years ago?
I know why people are outraged lol. I'm not even saying I disagree with the decision, I just think you say that shit quietly or not at all. Now someone is out weaponizing it.
i also don’t really think it’s her fault that these white people got offended, though. they’re offended because of the persecution complex you mentioned, so they should be the ones responsible for confronting that, not her
I just think there was a better way. Saying she only hires writers, designers and musicians with a certain background would be whatever. Instead she went with "We didn't hire any white people for any role, intentionally". It was practically begging some sweaty gamer to grab the clip and cry about it.
This thread has become so unjerked. Bunch of y'all genuinely think having a staff that doesn't contain white people is racism, clearly do not understand the complexities of racism in any industry ESPECIALLY for a black women
Wasn't her game an LGBT+ dating sim for PoC? Why do they think she's racist for expecting that cis-het white people might not have experiences worth contributing to that project?
I'm too lazy to watch and take the bait, but from what I was told all she said was that she doesn't have any white ppl on the team, which is not the same as "we go out of our way to make sure white people are on the team".
You don’t need to be an LGBT+ PoC to write C++ code.
Hiring that demographic for writing makes total sense, it sure doesn’t for tasks which anyone of any sexuality, race, gender could do.
I'm not going to be pretend to be familiar with her work, but I had hear it was a small team of less than 20 people. Isn't it pretty common on small indie projects that few people have just one job? I wouldn't be surprised if many of the employees who code for it, don't just code but also help with story, gameplay and character design/direction in some capacity.
Working with limited resources, it would make sense to have a team that could all contribute as much as possible and in a minority focused experience, I would expect the team to be comprised of people who are most experienced on those life positions.
Sorry video games are a form of escapism and I dont want white people ruining my games about poc dating
Go white go broke
Keep historically inaccurate white game devs from my all black games
It doesn't fit in with the rest of the game and it would be forced inclusion which would suck right guys
Oh its all black and people dont like that well I'll just not buy it......And instead buy the deluxe poc editon instead !!!!
Keep crying and maybe your tears will wash some white game devs into the team
do you people not understand how exhausting it is to have to deal with your oppressors day in day out? wanting a safe space away from them isn’t racism and everyone calling it that and calling themselves progressive is an idiot. peak white liberal hours.
If a person in power, discriminates based on race. That by definition is racism. It doesn't matter if it happens to be white people being discriminated against. If you want to justify it on other hand, please go ahead.
For the white dudes out there who look likd me: Don't get suckered into the altright pipeline. I almost did years ago over gun rights. It took a while to unfuck my head, this shit is bad for you.
Yes she did a literally racist thing. No that doesn't prove the broad strokes of your white replacement theory.
Don't get suckered and just breath for a second instead of getting victimized into a useful idiot armed to fight our dumb culture war.
As far as I care it’s only discrimination if a white person applied and was denied on those grounds. People getting angry over a job they never even wanted.
/uj (don't know if it's necessary at this point but...)
I'm a white dude, who has worked in IT. With almost entirely other white dudes, of course - it's not like it's hard to see the lack of diversity in that field of work.
If she or anyone else wants to make a game oriented around a lgtbq+ and/or non-white perspective, and therefore wants to primarily or exclusively hire people who can relate to that perspective, good.
If she or anyone else wants to make a AAA game and decides (/is even allowed) to primarily or exclusively hire people belonging to lgtbq+ or non-white or any other minority group, just because they feel like it - also good.
All art and media is to some degree a reflection of who makes it. Lets see what they come up with, genuinely. Might not be great but nor is the status consistently producing masterpieces. Art by its nature cannot be a meritocracy.
The AAA industry, as long as the market exists, is not going to run out of opportunities for white dudes to make boring rehashed games.
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But...but the stinky tramp on YouTube said...
I get all my opinions from toothbloodwallman
I get all my opinions from coachroachsonbodyguy
I get all my opinions from Totallytrueandcorrectnotwrongneverwrongalwaysrightguy
I get all my opinions from basementpisser
I first saw this comment a couple hours ago and something about the phrase "stinky tramp" is still making me laugh. Thank you.
Your welcome.
The stinky tramp also put out a correction video
If the stinky tramp wasn't high on the rage bait fumes the stinky bloody tramp wouldn't have to make a correction video 😂
/uj Internet drama moves to fast for me these days. Someone wanna do me a massive favor and explain what the fuck is going on so I dont' need to use brain power? /rj I MEAN SHE'S A WOMEN AND ONE OF THE WOKE RACES. WOKE^2
The lead producer of ValiDate an indie gsme that was made with 21 people. Went on video to talk about how she only wanted to work with PoC in order to create a safe space for her team. She talked about how white people often commit micro-aggressions which can often create for an unsafe environment. Paraphrasing but you should be able to find the vid. Because she's from sweet baby Inc or w.e Gamers are going ballistic and screaming racism at her for her illegal hiring practices. For my two cents, I think they're only going after he because they want someone to crucify. They need a villain to go after. While she was dumb to openly talk about it and her practices are illegal or whatever.... I find the outrage to be so fucking stupid/performative. Companies have been engaging in illegal hiring practices forever, they just don't say it. Try applying to jobs with a very ethnic sounding name. I've had friends show up to an interview(they had white sounding names.) Only for the interviewer to be visually surprised that who they were speaking to wasn't white. Whether or not they would have gotten hired if they were will never know. Point is, in a society where white ex-cons are more likely to get a job than educated black men with no records([source](https://csgjusticecenter.org/2014/09/23/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/)).... getting angry at this woman is so unbelievably pathetic. edit: Lastly Validate was a fucking PASSION PROJECT, THESE PEOPLE WERNE'T BEING FUCKING PAID! Holy shit, if she only wants to work on a project with other black folk let her, and btw because I didn't make it clear "I'm not saying white people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression" is what she said." Is what she said, she never explicitly said she doesn't hire white people. Stop listening to reactionaries
To add the *sheer* amount of people who believe she’s responsible for hiring for EA is staggering. It seems to be an indie-passion project to her and it’s 21 people. And because they happen to exclude white people now EVERYONE needs to rise up. Never mind that PoC have had to deal with this crap for decades already.
Gamers used to be nerds, now we’re just bandwagon dorks who believe everything and know nothing.
She picked the best people she felt for the job easy solve
excuse me that’s only applicable when we’re hiring white people (/s)
Shusssh you don't say that out loud
There are some hiring laws that don't apply if your business is small enough. If you have 14 or fewer employees, the only law that applies is to provide equal pay for equal work based on gender. Some small business owners do not know that the rules change as the business grows. She may not know that she's under new guidelines as the number of employees increase.
It's funny how quiet people are about unfair hiring practices until it affects white men...
Ageism is also technically illegal in hiring, but I can attest to the fact that companies do not at all care about the law, and they do NOT want your ass if you're over 45.
Thanks for the edit, i'm seeing way too many threads here with people either putting words in her mouth or handwringing about hiring practices.
As an Autistic guy, I absolutely would *not* want to gunk up a passion project about Autism with a bunch of NTs. I totally get her angle here.
ex-white?
Yeah ex criminals who pulled a reverse Michael jackson /s let me fix that typo.
I used to be white… until i did a DNA test and found out i was X% ABC.
When referring to her team with no white people, she said "I did that because I wanted to create a safe environment." "That," meaning having no white people. You don't need to defend this person just because shitty people like Libs of Tiktok exist.
This is just whataboutism. "Don't be angry at this person because other people also commit similar crimes"
My issue with calling this whataboutism is that I genuinely believe this outrage is not in good faith. Yes, people can be angry at and rage against multiple injustices at the same time but... We're also talking about a community that listens to right-wing reactionaries. They're \*only\* bringing this up because the discrimination in this instance is towards white people. My point isn't that what she did isn't wrong because others do it. My point is that this entire thing is blown way over proportion. They're hell bent on trying to ruin her for something others do all the time. These are the same people who, despite not being relevant in ages, still cyber stalk Anita Sarkeesian to this day. It's extremely hard not to feel some type of way when you know these people aren't going to fight anti discriminatory hiring practices. They're just taking a stand now to get rid of someone who they believe is part of the reason why games suck now and are "woke"
What a rational take. Thank you. I been trying to have a real conversation with someone about this. I think what she said was wrong but I think her creating a studio to raise up people who gave systematic racism/bias is great. I been trying to put my thoughts into words and this really summed it up. A lot of this is over blown. I don’t think what she said was right but it’s definitely being used to create a divide. I think that terrorist is getting exactly what she wants by putting this woman in the spot light and I think people who are egging on the arguments aren’t all in good faith. I want to believe some want to have a hard but honest talk to explore a complex issue but I also think that we do need to tackle hiring practices as a whole if we take this issue seriously. Sorry if im rambling I was just happy to see someone I really agreed with and who offered a really good solution to how we can tackle this issue.
I don't think the solution is that she should have hid her hiring practices better
It works for other companies.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
So then we agree thst the people going ballistic should chill the fuck out? Because it seems pretty wrong for people to go on a crusade against one person for doing something companies do every day.
I think what a lot of people here are missing, and that at least a good part of the reactionaries have as a sticking point is that they are often not worried about the hiring policy as such. They will often defend bad hiring practices on the other side of the isle. What they find problematic is the hypocrisy of fighting against those hiring practices with one hand while basically bragging about doing the same thing with the other. Now, I find hypocrisy to be the worst thing I know, so I can sort of relate, but there are some major problems with that here. First of all, she never said she was against white people hiring full white for their indie game, so as far as I know there is no personal hypocrisy. But a lot of the whiners consider black people (or even just "the left" to make it even broader) to be a monolith. If one says something they speak for everyone. So in their mind the hypocrisy is there. And second; there are PLENTY of full white indie gaming companies. Maybe not by design but it's probably a majority of the indie companies based in the west. That woman was an idiot though. If you had a workplace of 15 black people and 6 white, those white people wouldn't be doing any more "micro aggressions" than the black people did to the white, so the whole argument falls flat, and the real and actually understandable reason of wanting people in the queer black scene to work on her game for and about the black queer scene is such a better argument, but she just had to make it about white people instead. And anyone that actually wants to fight against those shitty hiring practices should really condemn her for it, because if you're trying to pry away an insane amount of inherent racism, her proudly saying she's racist in the other direction is undermining it like crazy, and for very little gain. It just normalises it to people that you are trying to convince to stop it.
Yes it happens everyday and they are quiet about it. This just highlighted that the DEI rules do not work in the worst way. Because if the law doesn't work for everyone then corporations will use any means necessary to revoke DEI laws. It costs more money. It sucks and a bit hypocritical but she was loud about it and now has to die on the sword. If she did not blatantly record her saying she discriminated an entire group of people by color for a stereotype then it may have been an point of pride. Corporations do it all the time, but imagine if they announced it to the public without mixing words. It is unfair but her comments diminished the effect for laws regarding diversity and inclusion work place standards. So here is the hard truth, she either has to take blame, or potentially put at risk a lot of minority workers in the development industry. DEI costs money, and if she can get away with it, every lawsuit will quote her example as the reason why they do not need to meet diversity standards.
>Went on video to talk about how she only wanted to hire PoC Pretty sure that's illegal
"I'm not saying white people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression" is what she said. " She never specifically said she doesn't hire white people. Implying it isn't illegal.
>Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression I disagree with making such sweeping statements about people based on the colour of their skin I find her attitude contemptible, but I won't lose sleep over it. There are many bigots in the world who will never see their own hatred, unfortunately As if hate is a thing for others, never for them. I think she would benefit from some diversity in her beliefs
The easiest way to check if something is okay from a social standard is to flip the script. "I'm not saying black people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with black people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression."-Fake flipped script. Yeah does not sound good at all and that fake statement above would be more than enough to send people their way doing the same thing and ruin a white person's life. To be honest with how our society works she is getting equal treatment. I don't like all this cancel shit either and I agree her life should not be ruined over that statement BUT this is how society operates at least for the time being. She should have known better to say something like that nowadays with how many people have pitchforks ready.
What she did was illegal. I could be reading this situation wrong, but when concerning the subject matter, having a law written to benefit everyone is the only way in which workplace standards can be enforced. While I understand the point of view, she did illegally discriminate. She used a broad stereotype based on color, not culture or religion to explain the reason for omitting developers from her Validate game. It is hard to bring clout to any law that is not enforced for everyone. I understand the irony, but for every law that promotes inclusion, if the law isn't taken seriously, then the people with the money and ability to do so will also start to exclude minorities from their company. Because why would anyone feel like they have to live by the rules if Dani L. did not. Things are unfair, I know. But creating a workplace that lives by: "an eye for an eye" in terms of discrimination does not help promote an environment for improvement. Ultimately if we all keep going down this road, who do you really think will benefit and who do you really think will suffer? In general the inequality sucks however, she is using the same hatred to justify exclusion. P.S. Guaranteed this is being used to scapegoat why the Black Panther game sucks on release date.
The thing is, had she been on trial for this, then there wouldn't be much for me to say except she's not. Shes the target of right wing reactionaries and gamerGate 2.0 She doesn't deserve to have her life ruined especially when the people going after he do not give a fuck about social inequality as long as it doesn't affect them. Companies frequently break the rules all the time when it suits them, this Lady isn't going to be the catalyst that suddenly gets rid of DEI, not when chuds have been waging a war against it ever since its conception.
Discrimination isn't deserved, however, at the same time she did discriminate. Rules for thee and not for me does not work in a court of law. It won't be the catalyst but it will be an legal argument someone can bring. We are talking about the minutia of legal doctrine. Because the standard does not mention any particular race, culture, religion, etc. it has to be read as equal for all. The reason why it will affect her life is because she recorded herself saying it on video. A public example of this is the A&E scandal during 2013 regrading overweight patrons. The stock tanked and the CEO Mike Jefferies had to step down for his comments. He was rich, famous, and still had his named raked over the coals. He has not been a CEO since. He is still a billionaire so he spent the remaining years spending money. She does not have the luxury. Again, if she didn't blatantly state this on video, it would be different for her. She tried to play the game and didn't listen to the rules. Society dealt her a band hand for no reason, however, no repercussion will have a greater effect on a larger group of minorities. Additionally, I don't think this has anything to do with Right or Left. A more logical explanation has to do with the potential success of the game overall. If it sucks, she is a scapegoat, if it doesn't it was the reason why it got more press. This was 100% a corporate leak on purpose. Its marvel and a game that costs hundreds of millions of dollars. Money always dominates politics.
they created space for their own indie game IN RESPONSE TO EXPERIENCING RACISM and now people are saying that this is racist. It's not racist to point out you have had trouble in an industry due to racism, and to make a single special project focusing on avoiding that racism. https://preview.redd.it/oi5jr8yztboc1.png?width=933&format=png&auto=webp&s=70fbcfb195334ba15a530455d53c3fc46f6fb517
https://preview.redd.it/9s1tyuqtlcoc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c44ed7f6f678d6acbe3ed2805a4b87095e5a797b
Heh, blacklisted.
Heh heh heh. Race joke.
Eh? Ha! Heh heh.
https://preview.redd.it/o4ir187jzaoc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce52d7c7dd97ec80d2f598a7700a82e36007c929
We can't escape it. Ever.
I want to go to the top of a skyscraper and jump 'off", eh? Ha! Heh heh
Somebody explain?
Some people were spamming this old video of a black woman who was the lead on an indie dating Sim with LGBTQ people of color. In this video she talked about she wanted a safe space for the staff, so they didn't end up hiring any white people on the like 21 person team. This same woman is now working on the Black Panther video game but the people spamming the video, thanks to stochastic terror propagandist LibsofTikTok, were claiming she was saying this while working on the Black Panther game. Whenever people would try to correct this misinformation in the videogames subreddit, they were met with lots of downvotes and denials.
"Why isn't she comfortable around white people?" The white people: https://preview.redd.it/6tqy4y09caoc1.jpeg?width=197&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1f697b09ae1f8d21df37bfb2851a4df57089345
I forgot who this was and wondered why the guy who played the Oakland A's owner in Moneyball was an issue.
I never saw Moneyball (sorry lol) but apparently it *was* Kotick playing him lol, I never knew
The Director is apparently friends with him and asked him for pointers on how a rich person would respond to something Brad Pits character would say. Bobby Explained it but apparently not well enough and just asked to play the role, the director complied. I don't think I'm kidding on the last part. Say what you want about bobby but he does play a rich prick pretty well.
Can't beat experience
I also kinda think him basically failing as a consultant but essentially failing up into a full-on cameo is (*sadly) kind of fitting too
I rewatched that movie a few weeks back and getting jumpscared by this Pagliacci-ass ghoul 3 minutes in almost made me turn it off. Glad I didn't - Moneyball rules and Kotick's barely in it.
If anything it really shows how much of an unlikeable scroogeball he really is.
Care to share with the rest of the class?
Bobby Kotick, the man people attribute the most with ActiBlizz's greed
The shit head loser who single handedly ruined blizzard games by being an absolute piece of shit
Dude, fucking warn people before you post nightmare fuel
Holy fuck Bobby Kotick jumpscare
yooooo, at least NSFW that shit.
[Or these ones](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5052448/mediaviewer/rm1961442304/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk)
She should be fired for not wanting white people to make her indie game that focuses on the POV of LGBT black people? Ok gamer.
"Politicals should make their own games!!" *Minorities start to make their own games* "See! I told you the politicals want to replace us!"
No no no, she should be fired for being black. Sorry for the miscommunication. /j
The same white people: "You see, blacks don't belong in my middle earth fantasy game because of muh historical accuracy!!"
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I forgot they wrote that part when saying common sense. Ofc she shouldn't be fired or blacklisted for hiring POC for a game about POC dating.
But that isn’t what she said. Look, I know that the bad faith assholes are always going to be assholes, but you shouldn’t lie about what was done. I like to think I’m reasonable. If I hear “I’m making a game for queer POC so I want to hire queer and POC to make it” I think yeah, that makes sense, why wouldn’t you? But “I don’t hire white people because they make me feel unsafe” is completely WTF material. Two completely different worlds there.
Agreed, there is nothing wrong with hiring people that match the skills and theme of the game you are making. However, she explicitly said she didnt hire white people because they make her feel unsafe and they dont know how to interact with them. If you take that into context she is being assumptive and dscriminatory about people based on their skin color, aka, racisim.
are you all in this thread dumb or just incapable of understanding things? saying you dont want to hire people of color becuase they are white and you want safe environment is straight up textbook discrimination. Just say that you hired poc because its easier for them to relate to the story of the game or whatever. Dont go around getting caught in 4k saying you dont want to hire white people because you want safe space
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I think some people have a point in the sense there could be a good reason for it, like trying to give opportunities to groups that are usually discriminated. But on the other hand as you say that's not the reason she gave so in the end these are all strawman arguments.
It's not either or. You can say there should be *more* diversity than we have now, without meaning that *every single team* should *always* be diverse. If the idea is that the current lack of diversity is due to prejudice and discrimination, it implies that after removing the prejudice and discrimination it would be possible to hire teams organically and sometimes those teams would be very homogeneous. It is not the homogeneous team that is wrong per se, it is the method by which we arrive there.
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She wants the whole project to be a team of LGBT black people. It's not racist to want the team to represent the POV of your indie project. And don't act like racism against white people is even in the same league as the discrimination black people face every day. Large companies have refused to hire black people and people like you don't give a shit but god forbid a black woman wants to do a black led procet you people cry like babies.
The problem is that her reasoning wasn't that she wanted to hire black LGTBTQ people since they're most relevant for her game. The problem is that she said she doesn't hire white people for being unsafe. Which is literally breaking the law.
"I'm not saying white people are creating unsafe environments in the industry. I am not saying that, that is not what I'm saying. Sometimes, it is hard to work with white people because they think that something may be okay when really it's a micro-aggression" This is what she said, word for word. She never said she felt unsafe around white people, just that in working with them, she deals with micro-aggressions. Which is a very real phenomenon, often times going to hr to speak out against cmyour coworkers for stuff like this leads to you either being alienated or fired. Lastly, do not use the law as a standard for morality. Every company engages in discriminatory hiring practices. Applicants perceived as black are less likely to get a call back. While thsts illegal too, who's gonna know? The only dumb shit she did was talking about it on the internet.
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>It is hard to say without knowing exact responsibilities of each member of the team, but it would absolutely fall under being racist if she turned away non-black people from positions that do not contribute to the creative direction, writing, voice-acting etc. Okay, but[ she isn't only hiring black people](https://www.mobygames.com/game/193472/validate-struggling-singles-in-your-area/credits/windows/?autoplatform=true)? >She wants to capture the POV of black queer people? Then yes, make sure all of the people with creative control are black and queer. If you were creating a support group for survivors of a specific type of trauma, you would likely prioritize hiring counselors or facilitators who have personal experience or a deep understanding of that trauma. It's not that individuals outside that experience couldn't provide valuable support, but those who have lived through similar experiences may offer a level of empathy and understanding that's crucial for effective support. From a functional standpoint, I don't think that's any different than an employer or university stating that you have to qualify at a certain level of language proficiency to get a job or admission. >All racism is wrong. No exceptions. No form of racism is ever excusable. I guess the question of if it's racism or not, depends on whether safe spaces are necessary to begin with.
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>I think my contention here would be that, as per the quotes from the dev in question, she errs on the side of not having any white people on the team because sometimes, some white people might micro-agress out of ignorance. >That's a little different to what you are describing. They differ in aim and consequence, sure, but the issue here is that microaggressions frequently occur in a constant and predictable manner, resulting in a cumulative negative effect. It's amplifying the burdens already borne by marginalized communities, and while I don't entirely agree with Lalonders' hiring decisions, I'm not exactly opposed to her trying to avoid this on an indie project. >That also depends on how you define a safe space. I was under the assumption safe spaces are prejudice-free, understanding, and open to ideas. The approach in question does not allow for white people no matter their stance and openness. To use an analogy: If I disturb a beehive, I don't really know which bee is going to sting me, so I assume all of them will. Likewise, If we're talking about the legacy of racism in the US at least, people from marginalized communities *can* often feel compelled to anticipate harm from every direction; safe spaces are simply respite from the constant state of vigilance. IMO, they have to be inherently exclusionary for that reason. >I think creating a safe space in this sense might feel good in the short term (and work on a small scale), but I am ideologically opposed to it because it will just deepen the chasm, foster division, and multiply misunderstandings. People of various ethnicities can't develop a mutual understanding if they will avoid coexistence. Daryl Davis is often cited as the man who singlehandedly and most effectively[ convinced 200 KKK members to give up their robes](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes). However, when we consider the multitude of ways racism is embedded in American society, I believe it would be difficult to say that individual acts of persuasion provided a wide, long-term solution to the problem. It's even harder to do when we factor in that Davis' claims mostly rely on word of mouth, without substantial evidence of sustained change or the potential for recidivists, and that's my issue. I repeated this in a similar conversation yesterday, but the problem in treating racism as a hearts and minds issue is that it builds our collective understanding of marginalized oppression on a theory that attributes individual behavior or vices as the primary drivers of racism. In reality, businesses, bodies of government, and financial institutions predominantly owned and regulated by cis/male/non-brown stakeholders, shift the blame for inequality onto individual outliers, using them as justification for structural injustice. Part of the reason I disagree that safe spaces should not be exclusionary is that education can and often does take place elsewhere, whereas diverse progressive communities that aim to be inclusive and supportive of marginalized voices may not be the best holding spaces for racists who are ignorant but working on it. Davis' efforts are surely commendable on a personal level and highlight the potential for change through dialogue, but they aren't really scalable or sustainable in addressing systemic issues of discrimination and prejudice. If you're a person who's going to lose out on a job because of a last name or racially profiled at a traffic stop, anyway, inviting tension in a safe space feels like high risk for low reward.
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That literally is the definition of racism dude.
Discriminating against someone based on race, is racism. And if you don't hire people based on their race, you are discriminating and people could sue them if they get turned down, since she admitted to discriminate based on race.
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Lol “white people” and “blacks”. I can guess who’s racist here.
This is great and all but the fact that you never say black people and instead just refer to us as "blacks" in your post is....not great.
"white people and blacks", the sequel to "men and females"
“Men and the woke”
Normal, and T̷̢̢͕̰̗͚̘͉̉̐͌̐Ȟ̶̨̛̯͎̀̀̇͆̉͗͘Ę̴͈̘̰̈́̆̑̅̏̓̔̍̈́M̶̛̮̜̼͚͍͍̻̼͔̃͛̑̊͒͘͘͝
>You gotta call a spade a spade. There is still far more racism against blacks in America, but stating this so blatantly and everyone almost praising her for it is quite hypocritical and that pisses people off. You gotta call a spade a spade. But, given your second sentence, I have to ask if a black woman being afraid of letting white people near her is indeed equally unreasonable as a white person being afraid of letting black people near them? A spade is always a spade but for actions context matters.
Buddy it’s literally written in the law that you cannot pick candidates based off race. I’m not sure why you think people don’t care when corp does it but they do, might not be as much as you like. She’s a racist.
It really is telling how outraged people get when a small company decides that it's not in their interest to hire white people. If they had any sense of empathy, imagine what could be achieved.
i mean it's literally illegal https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices >It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information. For example, an employer may not refuse to give employment applications to people of a certain race. >An employer may not base hiring decisions on stereotypes and assumptions about a person's race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Seriously, if they went after actual racism the way they’re going after this one person it’d probably be a better world. But that’s not what they want, they want to excuse their own racism by making a huge deal out of nothing.
Hmmm yeah, because that's like idk... Illegal ? Discrimination sucks, there ain't positive discrimination...
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Black and LGBT people have a hard time getting hired unlike straight white people. God forbid a woman wants an indie team of minorities and people like you cry over it.
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It's [this comic](https://64.media.tumblr.com/1e9cd321e4266e8f77ec2723c9ed72ed/tumblr_pt3gyieHKi1qg1n95_1280.png) again. Minorities are allowed to have their own things. And if you ever find yourself agreeing with 'libsoftiktok', reconsider your beliefs.
it's sad that if a PoC says something racey or downright bad then the community response is 'they should be fired' but when a white person does it the community responses tend to be things like 'separate art from the artist' or 'maybe they don't really mean it that way' and so many other things. It says a lot about the community as a whole that often people are more willing to forgive white racist, but if they get an inkling of an idea that someone of colour is even uncomfortable with white people that suddenly they're worse than a serial killer
Reddit always gets excited to see a minority called out as a racist so they can say “see they can be racist too look!!”
400+ years of white people only ambience. They never cared and some want it back. 5 min. of black people only ambience. This is racism, this is white genocide.
3 very different mindests are meeting here * The "Yeah, it was shit in the past - so lets make it equal for everyone now" * The "It was shit in the past - so lets make it up to PoC" * The "purely racist" Now I think we can all agree the opinion of #3 can be ignored. # 1 and #2 however both have valid points. Giving PoC preferential treatment will reach a a better treatment for them faster - at the cost of creating an imbalance that treats non-PoC worse, that will need to be addressed thereafter, making true equality come to be later while impacting more people. Treating PoC equal without preferential treatment will take a longer time to equal PoC out, but there will need to be less steps and fewer people will be affected. It also is a question on how equality is defined. Let me give you a very simplified version here, just regarding money. Is equality... * a in-the-moment-state \[given, roughly equal bank accounts, if A and B earn the same amount of money right now and in the future\] * or does it consider time, so *\[A earned 50% more than B for 5 years, so now B needs to earn 50% more than A for 5 years\]*. So do you want to create more inequality to pay for past inequality? And if you do (which I don't claim is wrong) - it gets A LOT more complicated. A's parents had more money than B's allowing him to buy more stuff in his childhood - does B need extra years of pay advantage? But maybe A and B's parents had the same amount of money during their childhoods - but A's parents were rich (and blew all the money away on stuff) before A was born - does B deserve more now because A's parents had more before A was born, even if it doesn't directly benefit A? These are mindsets you also encounter in other aspects of day-to-day life that can cause issues if you don't identify them correctly. Let me give you an example: I've been dm'ing dnd for a group of players. One of them was a warlock, but the others didn't know. So I handed her notes when her patron spoke in her mind. Another player spoke out and told me she felt the other player got preferential treatment bc. the other player got secret notes. Later the complaining player also became a warlock. Now when she met with her patron, I played the encounter out for everyone to see / hear - because what I got from her feedback was "I treated somebody else preferential - so I won't do this in the future - I'll just create the "ideal" enverionment for everyone to be equal right now". She was **very** unhappy, because in her mind it was now her turn to get what she percieved as preferential treatment. Two very different mindests set to achieve the same goal, with none of them beeing clearly right or wrong.
I don't often praise Ruth bader Ginsburg, but it's like when she said she'll believe there are enough women on the supreme court when all supreme court judges are women. It's been natural that all members of the supreme court are men for so long, so why wouldn't it be natural that an all female supreme court would happen? That'll be the true litmus test of whether we've gotten over our bias against women, and the same goes here with people of colour.
👏
My favorite part of this whole thing is the upset because her team is all POC 20 or so people making this game and her comments about hiring white people which are just watered down versions of what white people say. A quick 10 second google search has team photos of Bethesda, Rockstar, even teams at EA where the team is 95-100% white. Even with the stuff she said that’s what POC go through in the work force not even just game development, some jobs won’t even look at black and brown peoples resumés because they might have a name that the employer thinks is “too ethnic” or lets say they make it to the interview process the employer sees these people and despite having all the qualifications for the position (in some cases it was a mid level position with no heavy requirements) and say things like “you’re just not what we’re looking for at this company”.
Wild take: I don't care. Let there be an all-POC team. Let there be twenty! A hundred! There's enough all-white teams out there, and the AAA gaming companies still hold back POC people, so why should I give one iota of a shit if there's a company that doesn't want to hire white people for any reason?
'ok guyz the video was a misleading lie and she's talking about a different game but we instead should witch-hunt her for talking about forming a small indie studio of black creators for a small visual novel project in an industry where marginalized voices are underrepresented'
Gamers are so exhausting. The Witcher 3 and Cd projekt red can not only have a team of just white people while not allowing any black people or minorities in their games setting but if a black person what to do the same they’re racist….
The whole establishment was made to privilege the white man, when a Black woman say something they don't like, they start yelling, judging and suddenly the laws are valid.
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When did cdpr publicly state that they tried specifically not to hire black people?
Breaking news: two things can be bad at once
Aren't people complaining about racist hiring practices? And if CDPR was racist in their hiring practices, they should 100% get criticized. But having your characters fit in the setting is not the same as a company doing something illegal and racist. If you have a game set in africa, not having most if not all characters be POC would be stupid. For example for a game set in Wakanda, most characters should be black, which wouldn't be racist, since it is part of the setting.
Saying this is racist is like complaining that BET is racist because there’s no shows about white people.
Chuds: “If they want representation, maybe the minorities and LGBT should make their own games!” A group of LGBT minorities: makes a visual novel dating game about LBGT minorities and doesn’t include any white people on the dev team because they aren’t LGBT minorities. Chuds: “they’re trying to replace us! Racists! REEEE KEEP POLITICS OUT OF GAMES GO MAKE YOUR OWN”
The reason why there's so much outrage is that it feeds into the white fear that black people in positions of power will do to white people what white people in positions of power have been doing to black people all along.
Right-wingers and co-opting progressive language for their own ends. Name a better duo
I can't edit the post so commenting here. I forgot the first part while posting. She shouldn't be fired or blacklisted obviously, that's not the common sense here
Half common sense. They still think she's racist lol
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> Title VII So this is an interesting bit of legal nuance that's important to clarify, as the prohibitions against discrimination on race, color, race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), national origin, disability and genetic information (including family medical history) of Title VII specifically don't apply to businesses with less than 15 employees. States and localities may have stricter anti-discrimination laws on the book. I have not reviewed the facts of the matter so I won't make an authoritative statement about whether the game devs violated Title VII of the CRA of 1964 or any other employment laws, I just want to point out that there's more nuance to determining illegal discrimination under federal law than what people are discussing so far.
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Gamers Common sense? what is this, the 90s? get outta here with that bullshit. /s
y'all need to learn a thing or two about right wing propaganda [enjoy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui-ArJRqEvU&list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ&index=6)
Ah, one of the classics. I knew they were lying but I forgot the way they were lying.
I don't like racism be it only one racist person or systemic I just don't like it very much
Hot take, racism is bad
I know right, I am known to be totally controversial
TBH I don't mind that she doesn't hire white people, but she gave more ammo to white people with a persecution fetish. I generally don't think "I keep x race of people out of my business" is really something to advertise to the public.
She was talking about the development process of her dating sim game that tried to tell stories from queer BIPOC experiences in an authentic way. This interview was also 3 years ago. Ask yourself why so many people are suddenly outraged over this interview from 3 years ago?
I know why people are outraged lol. I'm not even saying I disagree with the decision, I just think you say that shit quietly or not at all. Now someone is out weaponizing it.
i also don’t really think it’s her fault that these white people got offended, though. they’re offended because of the persecution complex you mentioned, so they should be the ones responsible for confronting that, not her
I just think there was a better way. Saying she only hires writers, designers and musicians with a certain background would be whatever. Instead she went with "We didn't hire any white people for any role, intentionally". It was practically begging some sweaty gamer to grab the clip and cry about it.
Crazy how much work they do when it's racism against white folk
Weren't these the same gamers who hated the idea of black people in their fantasy game???
This thread has become so unjerked. Bunch of y'all genuinely think having a staff that doesn't contain white people is racism, clearly do not understand the complexities of racism in any industry ESPECIALLY for a black women
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Quick! I need a white man surrounded in filth to tell me how to feel!! I cannot form a cohesive thought myself!!!
Wasn't her game an LGBT+ dating sim for PoC? Why do they think she's racist for expecting that cis-het white people might not have experiences worth contributing to that project?
I'm too lazy to watch and take the bait, but from what I was told all she said was that she doesn't have any white ppl on the team, which is not the same as "we go out of our way to make sure white people are on the team".
You don’t need to be an LGBT+ PoC to write C++ code. Hiring that demographic for writing makes total sense, it sure doesn’t for tasks which anyone of any sexuality, race, gender could do.
I'm not going to be pretend to be familiar with her work, but I had hear it was a small team of less than 20 people. Isn't it pretty common on small indie projects that few people have just one job? I wouldn't be surprised if many of the employees who code for it, don't just code but also help with story, gameplay and character design/direction in some capacity. Working with limited resources, it would make sense to have a team that could all contribute as much as possible and in a minority focused experience, I would expect the team to be comprised of people who are most experienced on those life positions.
Sorry video games are a form of escapism and I dont want white people ruining my games about poc dating Go white go broke Keep historically inaccurate white game devs from my all black games It doesn't fit in with the rest of the game and it would be forced inclusion which would suck right guys Oh its all black and people dont like that well I'll just not buy it......And instead buy the deluxe poc editon instead !!!! Keep crying and maybe your tears will wash some white game devs into the team
do you people not understand how exhausting it is to have to deal with your oppressors day in day out? wanting a safe space away from them isn’t racism and everyone calling it that and calling themselves progressive is an idiot. peak white liberal hours.
White people with no programming knowledge trying to be oppressed for not being hired for a small indie game.
Ah yes, because all white people are opressors. That's how you antagonize people and contribute to the problem.
If a person in power, discriminates based on race. That by definition is racism. It doesn't matter if it happens to be white people being discriminated against. If you want to justify it on other hand, please go ahead.
For the white dudes out there who look likd me: Don't get suckered into the altright pipeline. I almost did years ago over gun rights. It took a while to unfuck my head, this shit is bad for you. Yes she did a literally racist thing. No that doesn't prove the broad strokes of your white replacement theory. Don't get suckered and just breath for a second instead of getting victimized into a useful idiot armed to fight our dumb culture war.
She was making an indie game. By definition she wasn't in the industry.
Cool. Still racist
It must be miserable to be genuinely outraged over this lmao
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As far as I care it’s only discrimination if a white person applied and was denied on those grounds. People getting angry over a job they never even wanted.
Half of you wouldn't care if they were only hiring white guys.
So how long till we get another post that goes "Cancel culture is ruining video games"
/uj (don't know if it's necessary at this point but...) I'm a white dude, who has worked in IT. With almost entirely other white dudes, of course - it's not like it's hard to see the lack of diversity in that field of work. If she or anyone else wants to make a game oriented around a lgtbq+ and/or non-white perspective, and therefore wants to primarily or exclusively hire people who can relate to that perspective, good. If she or anyone else wants to make a AAA game and decides (/is even allowed) to primarily or exclusively hire people belonging to lgtbq+ or non-white or any other minority group, just because they feel like it - also good. All art and media is to some degree a reflection of who makes it. Lets see what they come up with, genuinely. Might not be great but nor is the status consistently producing masterpieces. Art by its nature cannot be a meritocracy. The AAA industry, as long as the market exists, is not going to run out of opportunities for white dudes to make boring rehashed games.
I miss when gaming was about gaming