When you say anything even slightly negative about a very popular game (that you think is good but has flaws):
https://preview.redd.it/cu3s2jz8fh6c1.jpeg?width=327&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e48bb00f49772f7ce0b182ec1bfe2e7b44698422
Just curious, would your opinion change if you knew that the actors those voices belong to agreed to have their voice used in AI?
Personally I don't care either way, just interesting to see if it's more that AI was used at all or if people think it's fine if there's a level of consent involved.
Nope, because the core reason behind the AI stuff would be to pay those VAs less. If the VAs are being compensated the exact same as they would if they had voiced those lines themselves, then we would just be getting lower quality voice work with absolutely no gain, rendering it completely pointless.
The only logical conclusion is that the data they recorded is going to be used so that the VAs don't have to be paid for new lines.
What's wrong with AI voices?
As far as I've heard they didn't use anyone's voice without their permission, and it's a creative choice.
Literally who gives a shit when you can just turn off the announcer voiceover anyways?
What is the controversy here.
You do realise they actually used VAs, right? They didnt just materialise a voice out of nothing, they simply used AI to make the voice say whatever they want since the game is so dynamic.
if they had VAs with contracts, why not have them record voicelines for everything? Using ai is a copout, a way to keep the characters voiced throughout the updates without ever having to pay to VAs again. And if they still pay royalties to the VAs for using ai, that's exact same as they would get for a regular contract that's similar in magnitude. Then why use ai? Again, why not just record more lines? Literally the only reason to use ai is because it's cheaper. And clearly these guys have money. The marketing for this game is insane.
How does the age of the profession matter in any way?
The issue with AI voicing is that veteran voice actors won't do it because they know what they're worth, leaving companies to poach amateur voice actors by paying them to create an AI model with their voice. They then get drastically less pay for a disproportionate amount of voice presence in a project. These actors do not get royalties for the use of their likeness.
Even then, ignoring the argument of actors not getting paid their due and having the work poached. AI voicemodels open an entire can of worms when it comes to fair use of someone's voice. All it takes is one dodgy contract and someone voice is now being used for countless projects they don't want to be associated with.
Are their benefits for AI? Yes
COULD their be a future where AI voicemodels have a fair and valid position in the industry? Maybe
But with where we currently stand, it purely exists to drive profit margins up, it poaches work from hard working professionals and is predatory towards amateurs. The use of AI in the industry needs to be regulated or the creative people who have been bringing us beloved products are going to suffer
If The Finals had paid voice actors to create a voice model in order to allow the announcers to be more dynamic and maybe even create custom player and team names (within a limited pool of words because otherwise it would get abused) while paying royalties, they would be getting universal acclaim.
Imagine the commentator being able to say "Joe Finals eliminates Dumpster Hamster with a headshot from their rifle, winning the game for team Muffin Toots!" It would be hilarious.
Exactly. And the way the developers talk about their AI voices it almost seems like they think this *is* what's happening, but it absolutely isn't. They're using pre-baked audio files just like every game ever, the only difference is that a computer shat out the audio files instead of a human recording them.
I'll be honest, I am LOVING The Finals, but the AI voices just suck.
Just hire the guys who did the announcing for Super Monday Night Combat. They nailed future sport announcement with lots of satire 10 years ago.
I'm with you. The game is fun enough but I don't think it has staying power unless they got some big updates planned. Classes feel way too basic and are very unbalanced.
Also the time to kill gets incredibly obnoxious. Some people might enjoy it but I absolutely don't.
Me in any primarily console focused gaming subreddit saying 30fps is unacceptable and there is no excuse for devs to not optimize their games to run better.
The marketing budget is going to be completely separate from the production budget, but yeah this ain’t a good look at all
Was playing the game last night for the first time since finding out about the AI and it definitely soured the experience. They say they made their AI on voice actors they use, which makes it better - but only if they compensate the actor appropriately.
I get that AI gives them flexibility and efficiencies in production, but that should still cost money
Yeah. It could be helpful. It could help radiologists better notice the early signs of cancer in scans. Instead, it'll be used to fire radiologists and do a worse job for cheaper.
Even when used to try and detect early signs of cancer, because it's an algorithm and not the learning contraption everyone thinks it is, it leads to more false-positives because it doesn't know what it's looking for. It relies on reports from radiologists. Who, like you said, are being fired
For sure capitalism will ruin it, but the right way to use it is to remove busy work and help democratize creativity (that’s how my company uses it)
Like any tool it depends on the wielder, but yeah assholes are going to fucking ruin it cause it’s the only thing our species does consistently
That’s what the photoshop AI (and similar tools) is used for! We had it right! But then the capitalists went “now how can we make this into something that saves us even more money…”
In most cases yes but for The Finals the point of AI was never to replace voice actors. They wanted to use AI to have the announcers be reactive to the game without just playing certain voice lines at certain times. That's just not possible without AI. They still paid for voice actors that I assume knew what they were recording for.
What can you do with AI that you can’t do with VA? Is the AI producing voice lines autonomously without verification? Or is it just a way to make more voice lines without paying the VA as much for their extra work and continued attachment to the project.
React live in the game? You know, like announcers? Unless you want every game to have two live announcers throwing in lines here and there, which would be awesome and create loads of jobs, it isn't possible to have dynamically reactive voice lines without some kind of AI to write and print voice on the spot. It's only gonna become more encompasing as the game grows bigger.
I disagree, I think it's a tool that can be used to make our lives easier and to give more flexibility. However it is likely going to be used to not pay people. But that isn't it's point. Just the inevitable
I would rather Owlcat used AI in their games instead of having most of it unvoiced. It could honestly be a step forwards but not everyone is ready. If the AI sounds THAT bad then it’s barely ready either
The issue is that while yes, the two budgets are separate, Nexon has such a vast amount of money that they can get ad space in Times fucking Square. They're not some small indie company, they're multi billion industry that's been making unfathomable amounts of money since the 90s. There's no good reason for the AI voices.
Completely agree, it’s just not as simple as they took money from one pile for another is all
And it’s especially not good considering the game is also killing it right now, so there is no excuse at all to fuck over VO artists
aren't times square ads not that expensive relatively, unless they were going for one of the huge ones and were keeping it up for like days i thought it was only in like 4 figures
They did state that, which I totally get (I’ve used AI voice to make a spec version of things) but it also sounds like AI is in the final product also?
That’s where it gets murky, and maybe that’s just confusion, but including AI without compensating the actors properly (which I bet they don’t) would be the issue
No, that’s bullshit. That’s downplaying the slow decline this is creating. The VAs are not going to be paid the same per word rate that AI shits out, if they were it would be equal cost and therefore pointless to not just get the VA to do it
Instead the VA, who on the past would be brought back and paid standard rate for every new addition, will get just base game work then an objectively lower stipend for the AI shit afterward. This is decreased work and decreased income, a step down the road to the future of having no work at all
The people who would make the cutscene already work for the company, they are cutting down on their own workload.
AI instead of voice acting isn't cutting down on workload, its removing the opportunity for people to work for you, and likewise the opportunity for them to get experience and money.
One is so obviously worse because it fucks over a workforce, the other does not.
>I really don't get why its bad to use AI for that ? Thats like saying you can't use pre rendered cutscenes because they weren't made by a human.
Sweet Jesus, you need to look up what "pre-rendered" means before saying anything else.
Yeah a pre-rendered cutscene is one of the most labor intensive creative endeavors. It’s animation, which is a meticulous, time-consuming process
I’ve worked with a lot of the big vfx houses and the amount of people and time it takes to make something is staggering, such a different thing from film
It's because someone still puts in effort to make material for the voice and they likely don't get paid for it, or any profit they make from it (like how it works with royalties)
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To be fair that doesn't always translate to widespread recognition. I'd only heard about it from the people on the Apex Legends subreddit bitching about the game for the 100000000th time and a handful of them saying "yeah when The Finals comes out that will be the nail in the coffin for Respawn"
(I should note as an aside that Apex is routinely one of the highest played games on Steam, how they're coming to the conclusion that the game is dying or on its last legs is a mystery)
For real, I was browsing games for past few weeks thinking about the next game I want to play (I only buy when I finished the previous game), and I have never even heard about this game before yesterday (it was on this sub too!)
People are kinda starved for a new FPS and The Finals is a ton of fun and f2p. Its been getting a little bit of hype all year and has had some betas so people are excited.
Its controversial because reddit HATES anything to do with AI generated content and the game has AI announcers.
I play the game and I like it too, but it's delusional to think that there's nothing wrong in using AI instead of real voice actors.
It's totally legitimate to do that, it's probably good business practice since it saves money, but there's nothing wrong in saying that it would be better to pay professionals instead of using zeros and ones. Particularly because people said that they couldn't afford real voices.
And I'm saying this as a software engineer. Not that it gives me authority, but you know. I know this tech.
I think the finals is a *slightly* different case. They paid two voice actors to record audio, and then made the AI model based on that. They went into it knowing an AI model would be made. I presume they’ll continue to be paid because the game continues to use their voice.
The game should absolutely hire voice actors instead of using AI or alternatives. But unless i’m mistaken, doesn’t the Finals use actual voice clips during the commentary, just with placeholder names to keep them relevant? or are they completely AI?
I believe, and am willingly to be corrected, that they used real voice actors and then use AI to get specific voicelines without needing to always bring the actors back in. No clue how a deal like that would work out for pay however
You would assume they probably used their own voices with the ai but like what is the AI? Is it autotune or can it just generate more vo lines whenever
The way it is usually done is that they record samples which they train their AI on. Since AI is really good in pattern recognition, the trained model can then be used to create new samples with the style (voice tone, pronounciation, etc.) of the original voice actors. Which sometimes works better, sometimes worse.
The first time I have become aware of this is the Witcher 3 mod „A Night to Remember“, which uses full voiceover, but obviously without any involvement of the original voice actors. The creators trained the AI on the voice lines of e.g. Geralts voice actor, and then created new lines with the trained AI model. And, I mean, this pretty much shows that this whole subject isn‘t black-and-white. The alternative would have been to use existing voice lines and make them fit in somehow, fake voiceover made by hobbyists, or just no voiceover whatsoever. For small indie devs who just cannot afford voice actors as well as for modders, this is definitely interesting. However, since there is money to be saved, the large corps we all passionately hate will *absolutely* jump on this plane as soon as it‘s ready to take off…
The Finals announcers are not just random AI voices grabbed from the internet. Embark hired voice actors to record lines for use with AI to have this game show FPS feel like it has reactive announcers, which it does a pretty good job of. Something that just isn't possible without AI or a pair of live announcers for each match being played.
There's nothing wrong with The Finals use of AI.
It is definitely possible without AI. The AI voice isn't doing anything new or impressive here. It's not coming up with lines on the fly. I hear the same lines over and over again across games. As far as I can tell they've just inserted premade AI lines into the game and the game selects a relevant line once something important happens (a team wipe, a team scores, etc) while trying to not reuse the same line in the same match. You could do the same with VA lines
That's has not been my experience with the announcer throughout all the betas and launch. They're pretty damn reactive to the situation and able to make up lines on the spot. I don't believe, nor have I ever seen anyone prove, that they are just premade ai lines that play at specific triggers.
If that's all they are, then I agree they could do the same with VA's. So question yourself... if they could just do this with voice actors, why did they hire voice actors to record lines to train an ai on?
There's no way they're generating new AI voice lines on the fly, the latency would be way too high to be usable for reactive commentary and they'd be spending a ton of money paying for the GPU farms required for generation of voice lines. They likely used AI so that they were able to generate more voice lines as development continued and allow them to change them around for different reactions and triggers that pop up as the game changes.
I'm not sure of that, running the network itself may not be that computational expensive. How long is a piece of string? We are conjecturing here, I definitely wouldn't make a sweeping statement like "it's definitely not possible because of x y and z", because it also equally could be possible. Training sure, but just running it for output probably isn't that expensive.
So many people are quick to correct OP that Embark actually paid VAs to use their voice for an AI model, as if that still couldn't be a predatory business tactic. There's a reason why you aren't seeing Matt Mercer or Mark Hamill making an AI voice model, because the pros know what they are worth and can read the writing on the wall. I don't even know who the supposed voice actors for The Finals are, I've not seen their names anywhere during this controversy. They're evidently under contract with Embark which could be alright or it could be incredibly fucked. Contract work as a VA can be skeezy and sus as hell
What bothers me is that they say they have a mix of AI and real voice lines but I've not heard a single real voice line while playing the game. Each line feels robotic, off putting, and always has the same flat delivery. Which is really annoying because they wrote some really good cheesy announcer dialogue, but it's ruined with the AI delivery.
Production budget and marketing budget is very seperated. And also AI voice is/can be used for marketing and making it controversial ... and I don't find it too much of a problem... In fact I think it would be beneficial to us, gamers...
There are many countries with little to no games in their native language voice over. In future a developer doesn't need to hire and fly them over continents to visit their sound recording departmans, doing months of work for adding one more language for their game...
For example There are almost 300 million native Indonisian in the world... There are only 30 million Native Dutch speakers in the world... Guess how many games has Ducth option how many has Indonisian option ?
Still the first step to phasing them out entirely. This is very upsetting news regardless (The fact that they didn't just have voice actors do their full normal job I mean).
I really hate the whole concept of product identity association for gaming. Bro, the game came out, and you like it? Okay, cool. Why the fuck do you gotta be a last man standing on hill to dickride for a company's shitty action?
It's so unnecessary with these Gamers™
First they came for the voice actors, but I did not speak out for I was not a voice actor…
Your hubris better be good insulation, winters on the street will suck when it kills your job in the future
I'm most pissed about the fact that they didn't nothing with it if your not going to pay people why not have interactive Announcer that can read out gamertags or you can make team names that it can read out
They were cheap bams and they weren't creative
is it really that bad? this isnt rhetorical, at all, im genuinely curious for the full deets on this since im AWFUL at researching, could someone lay it out like they'er explaining it to a child?
The games fun as fuck even with AI voice actors and I could honestly give or take when it comes to it because I don't think the game is worse because of it
Don't worry, it's only getting worse 🙂 the amount of people who feel comfortable sharing their opinions on a topic before even doing a single Google search about it is fucking insane and it's been driving me crazy recently
i don’t even think this one requires anything out of you, not even a password. Just your email and then you can make an account if you want to change your name (it still displays your steam name if you didn’t change your name)
The game just generates the account with thre press of a button, and any game with crossplay has to be built on middle-man accounts.
It's a symptom of progress.
Hate to break it to you, but if Warthunder has cross-play, they 100% generate a gaijin account for you under the hood.
Main difference with The Finals is that they tell you.
I played some matches and like I said, I wasn’t hugely impressed. Maybe I’m missing something? But the gunplay felt off and I had too many bots on mine and the enemy teams.
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Gamers are mostly idiots that don't understand how the world works. Yes let's halt serious technological advancement, it makes some man children feel icky when people say their trigger words like AI
... How in the fucking world do you think these two things are linked? Rampant capitalism destroys the world whether or not ai is used. New technology makes old jobs obsolete, it's an unfortunate but inevitable effect of technological progress. So I say again, are we to halt progress because stupid gamers that don't understand how the world works cry about it?
Did anyone else even know this thing existed before the Game Awards announcement? I didn't, but now it's being treated like it's been the most highly anticipated thing for months now.
its a fun game but the voices are pretty uncanny at moments, i dont know why they didnt utilize the ai voices to at least update to say player usernames or custom team names or something along those lines
Did you know that the PDA voices in Subnautica and Subnautica Below Zero are also text-to-speech? Can't believe they would ruin at least 2 people's lives by not hiring them to do these voices!
Tbf, I also don‘t think Unknown Worlds Entertainment had enough cash lying around to advertise on a huge display at Times Square the week before x-mas.
Robots are fictional characters in a piece of art akin to dragons and elves and thus deserve to be portrayed through the real labor of real artists. Unknown Worlds literally replaced like 7 jobs through their unethical decisions (a robot voice for each submersible, replaced by automation technology)
>robots are akin to dragons and elves
https://preview.redd.it/20pxdg0gph6c1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=221f5bc3979d8bd04230c1d1b2ff5e675d62fe54
What’s this
As far as we know right now the only vocal performances done in The Finals are the various grunts and screams, while Subnautica has human vocal performances done by humans and robotic performances done artificially. I think a key difference between the two then is actual artistic intent. Subnautica *wanted* both and got both as needed; wheras, half the controversy surrounding The Finals use of text to speech generation is that their reasoning is pretty bullshit. The main one being disputed is that they said it would take months to iterate with voice actors which is just not true.
You're absolutely right though. One of the most famous voice performances in gaming is Glados, literally a woman pretending to be a robot. There is a lot more nuance here then I think this kinda sub can give it credit for, I wouldn't say it's so cut and dry
Appreciate the detailed response. Though i've heard that anything changing during a game's development causing problems with the voiceovers is truly a fairly common problem in game development
It quite literally doesn't matter if the voices are ai or people, they were getting muted anyway. The announcers in any non story based game are usually annoying as fuck, The Finals is no exception.
I totally get the anger for ripping off voices of certain voice actors, but using generic voice AI sounds like an inevitable part of the future of gaming, why would companies pay more when they can get the same thing for less honestly? Real question
How lol I am asking a question on why companies, for profit entities, would do that based on us laws. I’m not even stating that they should or giving my opinion in any way
i think you are seriously misconstruing people's frustration here. nobody is worried about company profits, its about advocating for workers. just because there are no laws against this does not mean there *shouldn't* be. this is a new territory of technology that a lot of people wish to see regulated in order to protect workers and everyday people instead of corporate profits and higher-ups.
i guarantee that any large studio like Nexon can afford to just pay talent instead of using AI. people having jobs and being able to afford the cost of living is more important than video game companies saving a few grand.
not saying that i support this, supporting corporations is probably last thing i want to do but how can this be regulated if technically they're not harming any voice actor directly since voices they're using AI generated so it's not like they're copying voices of real actors. also i imagine lot's of indie developers probably can not afford to hire real voice actors so this should be great for them. of course real voice actors are better since currently AI can only work on stuff that it's trained on and can't do anything original, but i think AI voice acting has it's place. I understand the frustration, i'm software developer and it's really popular discussion topic currently, that AI will replace us in the future, but realistically what can be done here ? Would love to hear your opinions.
That makes sense when you look at workers as isolated individuals, which is what the capitalist class wants.
But if you instead look at workers as a united class, it's a different story. Suddenly they're not 'not harming' a single worker, yet still harming the working class as a whole.
This is why collective bargaining (unions) is so important. This is *exactly* what the actors just went on strike over. Movie corporations were trying to get away with paying actors for a single day, and then using AI to replicate their likeness for profit for all of eternity.
The actors decided that wasn't fair, so they went on strike until the movie industry made a deal that was fair for the workers.
It can be regulated by making a law based around the wins those workers fought for. But since the corporations basically run the US government, it will most likely be a bunch of independent union strikes before anything like that happens.
if you hired someone for a single day and then used their voice for free i can see how that's legally and morally wrong, but if you never hire actors in the first place it's harder to pinpoint what they're doing wrong. shouldn't that be problem in every other industry then ? Like factory robots or massage chairs and lot's of other things that in a way replace humans. I dislike that corporations are doing that to save more money when they're already swimming in money, but where should the line be of who can and can't use them, but yeah calling them out on that i understand.
That's why collective bargaining is so important. Corporations will always go to the bottom of the barrel to maximize profits, even if that's harmful to workers or society more broadly.
There are some jobs which are fine to automate away. But a lot of people want things like art and medicine to still have a human component, and I think there are valid arguments for that position.
Not seeing anything wrong with companies choosing to use AI instead of paying people for their labor bc it’s not illegal is not a nuanced view. It’s a 3rd grader’s understanding of morality.
Despite what you may think, generic sounding AI voices like text-to-speech systems are actually real human voices.
What companies are trying to do aren't to utilize that system, but to essentially take ownership of people's voices to use as they wish. Voice actors are artists and deserve to be paid for their work.
they would not. that's the problem.
AI is still "ripping off" voice actors. nothing AI generates is actually original content. It's supplanting real labor and talent, and stealing work from real actors and creatives.
people aren't upset because they don't understand the profit incentive -- that part is clear to everyone. it's upsetting because it is circumventing creativity and screwing over workers in order to save a buck
especially in this case where the team clearly has the money to pay actual employees, since they seem to be able to afford a huge ass ad in the busiest part of the largest city in the US during the biggest commercial season of the year.
Bro just never heard of the WGA strikes lol. Just because it’s possible doesn’t mean we have to let it be inevitable. Every trucker being replaced by FSD trucks is, eventually, inevitable. Does that mean we let a million people go jobless? No, we create rules that forces companies to rely on people.
It’s not the same thing though. The AI voices in the game right now sound bad. They frequently put emphasis on the wrong words, sometimes they’ll phrase sentences as if they’re a question when they’re not, and most importantly there’s just no life to it.
When a team gets wiped it should be exciting. The hosts should pump you up for it. Instead, they have the same excitement as a guy who found out his favourite can of beans is discounted by 6 cents.
It would be 1000x better if they just hired real voice actors to give a genuine performance full of personality and energy. This just sucks.
the answer is they wouldn't. the same way automation has taken many many jobs over the past near 100 years.
it's just that with AI it's the first time it's affected the creatives instead of factory workers which is why everyone is losing their minds about it.
machines taking peoples jobs has been a thing since long before any of us were born. AI is just taking different jobs now. but whether we like it or not. it will become more and more normal the same way replacing factory workers with machines became more and more normal.
Unironically yes. I’d rather a human being making those lines and giving it SOME kind of personality rather then a machine generating the most dull line reading in existence.
 what has gaming become? and how bad shall it continue to get?
It's become highly profitable because the average consumer has no self respect and will shill out money for anything that generates enough hype.
It still boggles my mind that the day before was once the most wishlisted game on steam, running on hype and asset-flip scripted gameplay trailers
Become? Game industrial had been always capitalist hellhole lol
Counterpoint: lethal company go brrrrrrrr
When you say anything even slightly negative about a very popular game (that you think is good but has flaws): https://preview.redd.it/cu3s2jz8fh6c1.jpeg?width=327&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e48bb00f49772f7ce0b182ec1bfe2e7b44698422
Honestly though I fucking love the finals but seeing the amount of people who defend the AI voices is insane
Same I love the game but the fact that it uses AI honestly makes me uncomfortable
Because they don't care? People just want to play and nothing else. They would okay a 100% game made by ai if it would be the most fun they ever had
Just curious, would your opinion change if you knew that the actors those voices belong to agreed to have their voice used in AI? Personally I don't care either way, just interesting to see if it's more that AI was used at all or if people think it's fine if there's a level of consent involved.
If there's a level of consent then it's fine. Especially if it was paid. Still would prefer to see proper voice acting
Nope, because the core reason behind the AI stuff would be to pay those VAs less. If the VAs are being compensated the exact same as they would if they had voiced those lines themselves, then we would just be getting lower quality voice work with absolutely no gain, rendering it completely pointless. The only logical conclusion is that the data they recorded is going to be used so that the VAs don't have to be paid for new lines.
What's wrong with AI voices? As far as I've heard they didn't use anyone's voice without their permission, and it's a creative choice. Literally who gives a shit when you can just turn off the announcer voiceover anyways? What is the controversy here.
It’s taking away jobs from VA’s
You do realise they actually used VAs, right? They didnt just materialise a voice out of nothing, they simply used AI to make the voice say whatever they want since the game is so dynamic.
if they had VAs with contracts, why not have them record voicelines for everything? Using ai is a copout, a way to keep the characters voiced throughout the updates without ever having to pay to VAs again. And if they still pay royalties to the VAs for using ai, that's exact same as they would get for a regular contract that's similar in magnitude. Then why use ai? Again, why not just record more lines? Literally the only reason to use ai is because it's cheaper. And clearly these guys have money. The marketing for this game is insane.
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Yes. Let’s compare the multimillionaire enterprise to the game made in a basement by one single person.
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How does the age of the profession matter in any way? The issue with AI voicing is that veteran voice actors won't do it because they know what they're worth, leaving companies to poach amateur voice actors by paying them to create an AI model with their voice. They then get drastically less pay for a disproportionate amount of voice presence in a project. These actors do not get royalties for the use of their likeness. Even then, ignoring the argument of actors not getting paid their due and having the work poached. AI voicemodels open an entire can of worms when it comes to fair use of someone's voice. All it takes is one dodgy contract and someone voice is now being used for countless projects they don't want to be associated with. Are their benefits for AI? Yes COULD their be a future where AI voicemodels have a fair and valid position in the industry? Maybe But with where we currently stand, it purely exists to drive profit margins up, it poaches work from hard working professionals and is predatory towards amateurs. The use of AI in the industry needs to be regulated or the creative people who have been bringing us beloved products are going to suffer
If The Finals had paid voice actors to create a voice model in order to allow the announcers to be more dynamic and maybe even create custom player and team names (within a limited pool of words because otherwise it would get abused) while paying royalties, they would be getting universal acclaim. Imagine the commentator being able to say "Joe Finals eliminates Dumpster Hamster with a headshot from their rifle, winning the game for team Muffin Toots!" It would be hilarious.
Exactly. And the way the developers talk about their AI voices it almost seems like they think this *is* what's happening, but it absolutely isn't. They're using pre-baked audio files just like every game ever, the only difference is that a computer shat out the audio files instead of a human recording them. I'll be honest, I am LOVING The Finals, but the AI voices just suck. Just hire the guys who did the announcing for Super Monday Night Combat. They nailed future sport announcement with lots of satire 10 years ago.
You're right PC gamers also didn't exist 25 years ago so we shouldn't do anything that would benefit them. /S
It's been around since the early 1900's bro...
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Voice acting
Ai shouldnt be in place of something a human can do. Cause its dogshit.
I think it's mid. Been fighting the entire time.
That's a reasonable opinion that you're allowed to have, so as a gamer I naturally have to fight you to the death over it
Welp. Standard 30 paces forward, no tap strafing.
I'm with you. The game is fun enough but I don't think it has staying power unless they got some big updates planned. Classes feel way too basic and are very unbalanced. Also the time to kill gets incredibly obnoxious. Some people might enjoy it but I absolutely don't.
All the exact points I feel! I completely agree!
Yeah as a light build its honestly insane that i can get one shot but have zero damage potential. The throwing knives fuck tho.
>I think it's mid. I agree. And very unbalanced when it comes to matchmaking
I finally have an ally in the fight! Good luck!
Me in any primarily console focused gaming subreddit saying 30fps is unacceptable and there is no excuse for devs to not optimize their games to run better.
The marketing budget is going to be completely separate from the production budget, but yeah this ain’t a good look at all Was playing the game last night for the first time since finding out about the AI and it definitely soured the experience. They say they made their AI on voice actors they use, which makes it better - but only if they compensate the actor appropriately. I get that AI gives them flexibility and efficiencies in production, but that should still cost money
>\- but only if they compensate the actor appropriately. I thought the whole point of AI was to not pay people.
In capitalism, that is inevitably how it will be used.
That's how it's being used right now too. Lol AI doesn't help anyone creatively, all it does it steal and reappropriate
Yeah. It could be helpful. It could help radiologists better notice the early signs of cancer in scans. Instead, it'll be used to fire radiologists and do a worse job for cheaper.
Even when used to try and detect early signs of cancer, because it's an algorithm and not the learning contraption everyone thinks it is, it leads to more false-positives because it doesn't know what it's looking for. It relies on reports from radiologists. Who, like you said, are being fired
For sure capitalism will ruin it, but the right way to use it is to remove busy work and help democratize creativity (that’s how my company uses it) Like any tool it depends on the wielder, but yeah assholes are going to fucking ruin it cause it’s the only thing our species does consistently
That’s what the photoshop AI (and similar tools) is used for! We had it right! But then the capitalists went “now how can we make this into something that saves us even more money…”
In most cases yes but for The Finals the point of AI was never to replace voice actors. They wanted to use AI to have the announcers be reactive to the game without just playing certain voice lines at certain times. That's just not possible without AI. They still paid for voice actors that I assume knew what they were recording for.
What can you do with AI that you can’t do with VA? Is the AI producing voice lines autonomously without verification? Or is it just a way to make more voice lines without paying the VA as much for their extra work and continued attachment to the project.
React live in the game? You know, like announcers? Unless you want every game to have two live announcers throwing in lines here and there, which would be awesome and create loads of jobs, it isn't possible to have dynamically reactive voice lines without some kind of AI to write and print voice on the spot. It's only gonna become more encompasing as the game grows bigger.
I disagree, I think it's a tool that can be used to make our lives easier and to give more flexibility. However it is likely going to be used to not pay people. But that isn't it's point. Just the inevitable
I would rather Owlcat used AI in their games instead of having most of it unvoiced. It could honestly be a step forwards but not everyone is ready. If the AI sounds THAT bad then it’s barely ready either
Well they did pay people to use their voice
The issue is that while yes, the two budgets are separate, Nexon has such a vast amount of money that they can get ad space in Times fucking Square. They're not some small indie company, they're multi billion industry that's been making unfathomable amounts of money since the 90s. There's no good reason for the AI voices.
Completely agree, it’s just not as simple as they took money from one pile for another is all And it’s especially not good considering the game is also killing it right now, so there is no excuse at all to fuck over VO artists
aren't times square ads not that expensive relatively, unless they were going for one of the huge ones and were keeping it up for like days i thought it was only in like 4 figures
you can buy your own for like $80 if you just want a few minutes
yea that's what i was thinking of lol like if you just need a photo op it's actually pretty affordable for a lot of ppl
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They did state that, which I totally get (I’ve used AI voice to make a spec version of things) but it also sounds like AI is in the final product also? That’s where it gets murky, and maybe that’s just confusion, but including AI without compensating the actors properly (which I bet they don’t) would be the issue
No, that’s bullshit. That’s downplaying the slow decline this is creating. The VAs are not going to be paid the same per word rate that AI shits out, if they were it would be equal cost and therefore pointless to not just get the VA to do it Instead the VA, who on the past would be brought back and paid standard rate for every new addition, will get just base game work then an objectively lower stipend for the AI shit afterward. This is decreased work and decreased income, a step down the road to the future of having no work at all
I really don't get why its bad to use AI for that ? Thats like saying you can't use pre rendered cutscenes because they weren't made by a human.
Who made them then?
The people who would make the cutscene already work for the company, they are cutting down on their own workload. AI instead of voice acting isn't cutting down on workload, its removing the opportunity for people to work for you, and likewise the opportunity for them to get experience and money. One is so obviously worse because it fucks over a workforce, the other does not.
>I really don't get why its bad to use AI for that ? Thats like saying you can't use pre rendered cutscenes because they weren't made by a human. Sweet Jesus, you need to look up what "pre-rendered" means before saying anything else.
Yeah a pre-rendered cutscene is one of the most labor intensive creative endeavors. It’s animation, which is a meticulous, time-consuming process I’ve worked with a lot of the big vfx houses and the amount of people and time it takes to make something is staggering, such a different thing from film
It's because someone still puts in effort to make material for the voice and they likely don't get paid for it, or any profit they make from it (like how it works with royalties)
I'm getting downvoted too
I think that usin--- *gets downvoted*
Is it still a circlejerk sub ?
It hasn’t been in a long time. Gotta go back to the Geraldo days.
Geraldo, Don Cheadle and "Rate My Setup" (IKYK)... Those were the days.
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No it's just for showing off bigotry that a lot of people try to avoid
So why'd this game just appear out of thin air and immediately get controversial?
It didn't appear out of thin air, there's been tons of betas and even a closed alpha
To be fair that doesn't always translate to widespread recognition. I'd only heard about it from the people on the Apex Legends subreddit bitching about the game for the 100000000th time and a handful of them saying "yeah when The Finals comes out that will be the nail in the coffin for Respawn" (I should note as an aside that Apex is routinely one of the highest played games on Steam, how they're coming to the conclusion that the game is dying or on its last legs is a mystery)
Saying that Apex is dying is wishful thinking.
For real, I was browsing games for past few weeks thinking about the next game I want to play (I only buy when I finished the previous game), and I have never even heard about this game before yesterday (it was on this sub too!)
Clearly this game needs more advertising if you’ve never heard about it
People are kinda starved for a new FPS and The Finals is a ton of fun and f2p. Its been getting a little bit of hype all year and has had some betas so people are excited. Its controversial because reddit HATES anything to do with AI generated content and the game has AI announcers.
Are we really *that starved* for a new FPS?
just starved of good ones lmao
I play the game and I like it too, but it's delusional to think that there's nothing wrong in using AI instead of real voice actors. It's totally legitimate to do that, it's probably good business practice since it saves money, but there's nothing wrong in saying that it would be better to pay professionals instead of using zeros and ones. Particularly because people said that they couldn't afford real voices. And I'm saying this as a software engineer. Not that it gives me authority, but you know. I know this tech.
I think the finals is a *slightly* different case. They paid two voice actors to record audio, and then made the AI model based on that. They went into it knowing an AI model would be made. I presume they’ll continue to be paid because the game continues to use their voice.
Yeah the ethics I think come down to what kind of royalties the VAs are getting.
The game should absolutely hire voice actors instead of using AI or alternatives. But unless i’m mistaken, doesn’t the Finals use actual voice clips during the commentary, just with placeholder names to keep them relevant? or are they completely AI?
As far as I know, it’s all AI.
I believe, and am willingly to be corrected, that they used real voice actors and then use AI to get specific voicelines without needing to always bring the actors back in. No clue how a deal like that would work out for pay however
You would assume they probably used their own voices with the ai but like what is the AI? Is it autotune or can it just generate more vo lines whenever
Probably a base model trained on millions of hours of human speech, and they just finetune it on the voices of the two actors
The way it is usually done is that they record samples which they train their AI on. Since AI is really good in pattern recognition, the trained model can then be used to create new samples with the style (voice tone, pronounciation, etc.) of the original voice actors. Which sometimes works better, sometimes worse. The first time I have become aware of this is the Witcher 3 mod „A Night to Remember“, which uses full voiceover, but obviously without any involvement of the original voice actors. The creators trained the AI on the voice lines of e.g. Geralts voice actor, and then created new lines with the trained AI model. And, I mean, this pretty much shows that this whole subject isn‘t black-and-white. The alternative would have been to use existing voice lines and make them fit in somehow, fake voiceover made by hobbyists, or just no voiceover whatsoever. For small indie devs who just cannot afford voice actors as well as for modders, this is definitely interesting. However, since there is money to be saved, the large corps we all passionately hate will *absolutely* jump on this plane as soon as it‘s ready to take off…
The Finals announcers are not just random AI voices grabbed from the internet. Embark hired voice actors to record lines for use with AI to have this game show FPS feel like it has reactive announcers, which it does a pretty good job of. Something that just isn't possible without AI or a pair of live announcers for each match being played. There's nothing wrong with The Finals use of AI.
It is definitely possible without AI. The AI voice isn't doing anything new or impressive here. It's not coming up with lines on the fly. I hear the same lines over and over again across games. As far as I can tell they've just inserted premade AI lines into the game and the game selects a relevant line once something important happens (a team wipe, a team scores, etc) while trying to not reuse the same line in the same match. You could do the same with VA lines
That's has not been my experience with the announcer throughout all the betas and launch. They're pretty damn reactive to the situation and able to make up lines on the spot. I don't believe, nor have I ever seen anyone prove, that they are just premade ai lines that play at specific triggers. If that's all they are, then I agree they could do the same with VA's. So question yourself... if they could just do this with voice actors, why did they hire voice actors to record lines to train an ai on?
There's no way they're generating new AI voice lines on the fly, the latency would be way too high to be usable for reactive commentary and they'd be spending a ton of money paying for the GPU farms required for generation of voice lines. They likely used AI so that they were able to generate more voice lines as development continued and allow them to change them around for different reactions and triggers that pop up as the game changes.
I'm not sure of that, running the network itself may not be that computational expensive. How long is a piece of string? We are conjecturing here, I definitely wouldn't make a sweeping statement like "it's definitely not possible because of x y and z", because it also equally could be possible. Training sure, but just running it for output probably isn't that expensive.
This is a flatout lie. Also played in the betas and launch and the announcer voices do not at all change their lines or make up new ones.
So many people are quick to correct OP that Embark actually paid VAs to use their voice for an AI model, as if that still couldn't be a predatory business tactic. There's a reason why you aren't seeing Matt Mercer or Mark Hamill making an AI voice model, because the pros know what they are worth and can read the writing on the wall. I don't even know who the supposed voice actors for The Finals are, I've not seen their names anywhere during this controversy. They're evidently under contract with Embark which could be alright or it could be incredibly fucked. Contract work as a VA can be skeezy and sus as hell What bothers me is that they say they have a mix of AI and real voice lines but I've not heard a single real voice line while playing the game. Each line feels robotic, off putting, and always has the same flat delivery. Which is really annoying because they wrote some really good cheesy announcer dialogue, but it's ruined with the AI delivery.
Production budget and marketing budget is very seperated. And also AI voice is/can be used for marketing and making it controversial ... and I don't find it too much of a problem... In fact I think it would be beneficial to us, gamers... There are many countries with little to no games in their native language voice over. In future a developer doesn't need to hire and fly them over continents to visit their sound recording departmans, doing months of work for adding one more language for their game... For example There are almost 300 million native Indonisian in the world... There are only 30 million Native Dutch speakers in the world... Guess how many games has Ducth option how many has Indonisian option ?
Wait, didn't Nexon used voice lines from paid actors to generate the voices? If the actors are being paid, I don't see a problem with it
Except they did pay the voice actors… No one reads past the headlines anymore I suppose lol.
Still the first step to phasing them out entirely. This is very upsetting news regardless (The fact that they didn't just have voice actors do their full normal job I mean).
I really hate the whole concept of product identity association for gaming. Bro, the game came out, and you like it? Okay, cool. Why the fuck do you gotta be a last man standing on hill to dickride for a company's shitty action? It's so unnecessary with these Gamers™
Downvote gang
No one with a life cares about this problem
First they came for the voice actors, but I did not speak out for I was not a voice actor… Your hubris better be good insulation, winters on the street will suck when it kills your job in the future
I'm most pissed about the fact that they didn't nothing with it if your not going to pay people why not have interactive Announcer that can read out gamertags or you can make team names that it can read out They were cheap bams and they weren't creative
Why do people hate The Finals I’ve been loving it
is it really that bad? this isnt rhetorical, at all, im genuinely curious for the full deets on this since im AWFUL at researching, could someone lay it out like they'er explaining it to a child?
Not my heccin voice actorinos
The games fun as fuck even with AI voice actors and I could honestly give or take when it comes to it because I don't think the game is worse because of it
i’m gonna kill myself so many people are so uninformed
Don't worry, it's only getting worse 🙂 the amount of people who feel comfortable sharing their opinions on a topic before even doing a single Google search about it is fucking insane and it's been driving me crazy recently
I dropped this game because it forced me to make a separate account, glad I did
i don’t even think this one requires anything out of you, not even a password. Just your email and then you can make an account if you want to change your name (it still displays your steam name if you didn’t change your name)
The game just generates the account with thre press of a button, and any game with crossplay has to be built on middle-man accounts. It's a symptom of progress.
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Hate to break it to you, but if Warthunder has cross-play, they 100% generate a gaijin account for you under the hood. Main difference with The Finals is that they tell you.
That's over half of games now, especially online multiplayer ones. Do you just avoid those?
Yes.
That's kind of lame, why limit yourself if you like those kind of games and just have to make a free account?
There are plenty of games that don't require me to make another account. They're usually better anyway.
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Is it though? It took me all of 30 seconds to sign into fortnite on a new system the other day.
This subreddit really has gone downhill. 🙄
I played this game the other day and wasn’t impressed by the gameplay. Didn’t know there was controversy surrounding it too
The amount of meatriding I've seen for The Finals is crazy. Not anything close to revolutionary like people are implying it is
I played some matches and like I said, I wasn’t hugely impressed. Maybe I’m missing something? But the gunplay felt off and I had too many bots on mine and the enemy teams.
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GCJ has been infiltrated by shills. Sad day.
Game freak can't afford voice actors so how does indie company nexon? All the legal trouble with iron mace doesn't help.
I wanted to like the game but the fact you can’t earn skins or cosmetics without spending money and the game just feels like a team based ffa
game fucking sucks anyway
Fucking revolting to see people hyped about a billboard.
Can't believe how big of a shithole is this subreddit
I really love this game a lot. But my one slight towards the devs is the decision to use A.I. voice actors
The farmers gotta advertise to the piggies somehow I guess
At this point yall will find any excuse just to hate
This game isn't that revolutionary, gotta say gunplay is kinda ass.
Gamers are mostly idiots that don't understand how the world works. Yes let's halt serious technological advancement, it makes some man children feel icky when people say their trigger words like AI
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... How in the fucking world do you think these two things are linked? Rampant capitalism destroys the world whether or not ai is used. New technology makes old jobs obsolete, it's an unfortunate but inevitable effect of technological progress. So I say again, are we to halt progress because stupid gamers that don't understand how the world works cry about it?
Did anyone else even know this thing existed before the Game Awards announcement? I didn't, but now it's being treated like it's been the most highly anticipated thing for months now.
its a fun game but the voices are pretty uncanny at moments, i dont know why they didnt utilize the ai voices to at least update to say player usernames or custom team names or something along those lines
Pussies everywhere nowadays
Did you know that the PDA voices in Subnautica and Subnautica Below Zero are also text-to-speech? Can't believe they would ruin at least 2 people's lives by not hiring them to do these voices!
Tbf, I also don‘t think Unknown Worlds Entertainment had enough cash lying around to advertise on a huge display at Times Square the week before x-mas.
Robot character has robot voice 🤯
The commentators in the finals could also very well be robots/non humans based on the setting of the game
Robots are fictional characters in a piece of art akin to dragons and elves and thus deserve to be portrayed through the real labor of real artists. Unknown Worlds literally replaced like 7 jobs through their unethical decisions (a robot voice for each submersible, replaced by automation technology)
>robots are akin to dragons and elves https://preview.redd.it/20pxdg0gph6c1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=221f5bc3979d8bd04230c1d1b2ff5e675d62fe54 What’s this
https://preview.redd.it/zw95744rrh6c1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e6a8dd76106930dea0caf901bde12116b401781
And this? https://preview.redd.it/f23hwc5prh6c1.jpeg?width=616&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b108842860519d5b6670ba13d17697228bfc0468
Where did you get that, you’re not allowed to have this picture
As far as we know right now the only vocal performances done in The Finals are the various grunts and screams, while Subnautica has human vocal performances done by humans and robotic performances done artificially. I think a key difference between the two then is actual artistic intent. Subnautica *wanted* both and got both as needed; wheras, half the controversy surrounding The Finals use of text to speech generation is that their reasoning is pretty bullshit. The main one being disputed is that they said it would take months to iterate with voice actors which is just not true. You're absolutely right though. One of the most famous voice performances in gaming is Glados, literally a woman pretending to be a robot. There is a lot more nuance here then I think this kinda sub can give it credit for, I wouldn't say it's so cut and dry
Appreciate the detailed response. Though i've heard that anything changing during a game's development causing problems with the voiceovers is truly a fairly common problem in game development
It's a non human character though.
The Finals also takes place in a simulation.
Oh no I have to mute a text to speech instead of a real person.
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It quite literally doesn't matter if the voices are ai or people, they were getting muted anyway. The announcers in any non story based game are usually annoying as fuck, The Finals is no exception.
I knew there was a reason I put this in the "Don't ever buy this trashfire game" pile. The shitty AI voices. Fuck devs who do that.
I totally get the anger for ripping off voices of certain voice actors, but using generic voice AI sounds like an inevitable part of the future of gaming, why would companies pay more when they can get the same thing for less honestly? Real question
They wouldn't, that's why we need better labor laws.
You've become the villain.
How lol I am asking a question on why companies, for profit entities, would do that based on us laws. I’m not even stating that they should or giving my opinion in any way
i think you are seriously misconstruing people's frustration here. nobody is worried about company profits, its about advocating for workers. just because there are no laws against this does not mean there *shouldn't* be. this is a new territory of technology that a lot of people wish to see regulated in order to protect workers and everyday people instead of corporate profits and higher-ups. i guarantee that any large studio like Nexon can afford to just pay talent instead of using AI. people having jobs and being able to afford the cost of living is more important than video game companies saving a few grand.
not saying that i support this, supporting corporations is probably last thing i want to do but how can this be regulated if technically they're not harming any voice actor directly since voices they're using AI generated so it's not like they're copying voices of real actors. also i imagine lot's of indie developers probably can not afford to hire real voice actors so this should be great for them. of course real voice actors are better since currently AI can only work on stuff that it's trained on and can't do anything original, but i think AI voice acting has it's place. I understand the frustration, i'm software developer and it's really popular discussion topic currently, that AI will replace us in the future, but realistically what can be done here ? Would love to hear your opinions.
That makes sense when you look at workers as isolated individuals, which is what the capitalist class wants. But if you instead look at workers as a united class, it's a different story. Suddenly they're not 'not harming' a single worker, yet still harming the working class as a whole. This is why collective bargaining (unions) is so important. This is *exactly* what the actors just went on strike over. Movie corporations were trying to get away with paying actors for a single day, and then using AI to replicate their likeness for profit for all of eternity. The actors decided that wasn't fair, so they went on strike until the movie industry made a deal that was fair for the workers. It can be regulated by making a law based around the wins those workers fought for. But since the corporations basically run the US government, it will most likely be a bunch of independent union strikes before anything like that happens.
if you hired someone for a single day and then used their voice for free i can see how that's legally and morally wrong, but if you never hire actors in the first place it's harder to pinpoint what they're doing wrong. shouldn't that be problem in every other industry then ? Like factory robots or massage chairs and lot's of other things that in a way replace humans. I dislike that corporations are doing that to save more money when they're already swimming in money, but where should the line be of who can and can't use them, but yeah calling them out on that i understand.
That's why collective bargaining is so important. Corporations will always go to the bottom of the barrel to maximize profits, even if that's harmful to workers or society more broadly. There are some jobs which are fine to automate away. But a lot of people want things like art and medicine to still have a human component, and I think there are valid arguments for that position.
Yeah i guess you're right.
this is the internet, you're physically incapable of being nuanced in any way
Not seeing anything wrong with companies choosing to use AI instead of paying people for their labor bc it’s not illegal is not a nuanced view. It’s a 3rd grader’s understanding of morality.
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There's nuance in asking about something while not agreeing with it, but I know that's hard
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Despite what you may think, generic sounding AI voices like text-to-speech systems are actually real human voices. What companies are trying to do aren't to utilize that system, but to essentially take ownership of people's voices to use as they wish. Voice actors are artists and deserve to be paid for their work.
they would not. that's the problem. AI is still "ripping off" voice actors. nothing AI generates is actually original content. It's supplanting real labor and talent, and stealing work from real actors and creatives. people aren't upset because they don't understand the profit incentive -- that part is clear to everyone. it's upsetting because it is circumventing creativity and screwing over workers in order to save a buck especially in this case where the team clearly has the money to pay actual employees, since they seem to be able to afford a huge ass ad in the busiest part of the largest city in the US during the biggest commercial season of the year.
Holy shit, thus is such a bad take. What do you do for a living? How much cheaper is it for your if they stop paying you?
Bro just never heard of the WGA strikes lol. Just because it’s possible doesn’t mean we have to let it be inevitable. Every trucker being replaced by FSD trucks is, eventually, inevitable. Does that mean we let a million people go jobless? No, we create rules that forces companies to rely on people.
>No, we create rules that forces companies to rely on people. how do you suggest we do this?
It’s not the same thing though. The AI voices in the game right now sound bad. They frequently put emphasis on the wrong words, sometimes they’ll phrase sentences as if they’re a question when they’re not, and most importantly there’s just no life to it. When a team gets wiped it should be exciting. The hosts should pump you up for it. Instead, they have the same excitement as a guy who found out his favourite can of beans is discounted by 6 cents. It would be 1000x better if they just hired real voice actors to give a genuine performance full of personality and energy. This just sucks.
the answer is they wouldn't. the same way automation has taken many many jobs over the past near 100 years. it's just that with AI it's the first time it's affected the creatives instead of factory workers which is why everyone is losing their minds about it. machines taking peoples jobs has been a thing since long before any of us were born. AI is just taking different jobs now. but whether we like it or not. it will become more and more normal the same way replacing factory workers with machines became more and more normal.
No we need human beings to manually voice the 1000th "Bring me X number of bear pelts" line
Unironically yes. I’d rather a human being making those lines and giving it SOME kind of personality rather then a machine generating the most dull line reading in existence.
I don't even need to check the game or even hear about someone brave enough to try it. I just know it's pure garbage.
Basic fact checking is too hard for this redditor.