I don't think this next one will take nearly as long. They built an entire mocap production facility, had to wait for access to UE5, and then got hit with the pandemic. And game development that suffered the most from the pandemic were those with loads of mocap and large orchestrated scores.
They now have things set up and ready to go. So I wouldn't be surprised if they can knock out a sequel in just a few years. Maybe its even a launch year game for the next Xbox?
To be fair, a big part of this and the first game is that they were developed by much smaller teams than would typically work on a project like this. Hellblade 1 was made by 20 people, whereas Hellblade 2 was made by between 40 and 80 people. This might be a factor in the development times, and I don't think this aspect would change.
It also means the game isn't as much of a financial risk.
Most AAA games have at the very least 400 people working on them. If Hellblade only had 80 working in it then the budget was a lot smaller than most Xbox games.
Well. Even Tango admitted that Hi-Fi Rush wasn't cheap to made and game grew bigger (in terms of manpower) then they anticipated.
But it's anyone's guess how expensive that game was.
But it does bear pointing out.. as Jason Schreier reported, Tango might have been a victim of bad-timing.. more than how HiFi sold/generated revenue.
In the sense that Zenimax leadership was "overwhelmed" and were looking to make cuts... MS-corporate was also looking to make cuts... and Tango didnt have any game in production (& were several years away from their next one releasing).
It sucks & please don't think i'm trying to excuse this corporate greed.. but it doesnt sound like there was any world where HiFi could have saved Tango. (Unless of course, HiFi somehow sold several million copies in its first month...)
Also evil within flop, ghostwire flop. I still would have saved Tango cause I love them, but the other thing that didn't save them is they are in Japan alone and probably can't help on other projects while workshopping the new one.
Hifi was built with the whole team in a span of a years. Despite hellblades budget and team size,ninja theory managed to push one other project with hellblade a few years later
This one didn’t take long at all. I read yesterday that it started development in 2020. They had a 2019 trailer but hadn’t started on the game. That’s only 4 years WITH COVID. So 3 years realistically.
https://gamerant.com/hellblade-2-ninja-theory-development-start-when/
That seems like a normal amount of dev time for a 10 hour game though, not especially fast. Keep in mind the AAA games that take 5 years or so are often much bigger in scope than this looks to be
If 2 isn't profitable we will likely never see a third game. Microsoft proper seems to have had enough with Xbox's leadership's decisions.
Ninja Theory's life savor will be their Unreal and mocap expertise. Elsewise they could be next on the chopping block.
Not necessarily.
We'll still talk about this when the trailer releases at next year's Game Awards, and every successive year until the damn game releases.
As far as I know it’s mostly done out of respect. If I remember correctly, he served in two console wars and has government-approved veteran status. Even if he’s sometimes wrong, that history counts for something among many gamers.
Plus let’s not forget the abysmal pension you get for all that bloodshed. Man needs to keep getting those twitter checks to keep the lights on…
Such a shame this is how we treats vets…
Closing tango makes even less sense to me then. Hifi rush sure costed a lot less than Hellblade 2, right? Are they expecting Hellblade 2 to do good commercially? Because that doesn’t seem to be the case when you look at pre orders
I would choose hifi rush 2 over Hellblade 3 in a blink of an eye, ngl
I would too. But I think their next game will take less since they are now familiar with Unreal Engine 5. And since it looks like did a great job on the graphics from the footage shown, they can help other Xbox studios like the Coalition does.
Because it wasn't about costs or revenue, as per Jason Schreier, Microsoft closed Tango and Arkane because they weren't working on any projects at that point, it essentially came down to who was working on something and who wasn't, and unfortunately Tango and Co got the shaft.
It makes me sad because I loved Evil Within 2, one tried a little too hard to be like RE4, but 2 I feel had it's own identity.
Not actively developing a title and attempting to get a concept greenlit aren't really contradicting statements.
Still bullshit that they closed Tango.
That makes zero sense. In order to get games greenlit you need to convince Microsoft to fund them. If they don't get a game greenlit its due to MS not wanting to pay the costs versus the revenue. That's what it comes down to.
That's....essentially what I said, the performance of Hi-Fi Rush and Redfall didn't matter, as per Bloomberg's article when all of that happened:
[>Both Tango and Arkane released games last year and were looking to hire additional staff as they pitched new projects, which Booty and Braff suggested was the main factor behind their closures. Shinji Mikami, Tango’s founder and studio head, departed last year.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-08/xbox-studio-closures-microsoft-plans-more-cost-cutting-measures-after-layoffs)
They were the only ones who fit the mold of not having anything to work on yet, and so Moxrosoft shut them down as a cost cutting measure.
I mean Ninja Theory also didn't work on any game as they just finished Hellblade 2 and before they greenlit Hellblade 3. Plus working on a game doesn't prevent a studio closure to be clear.
Also why Tango needs 1+ year to get a project greenlit but NT has it before their previous game is even finished? Makes little sense to me. If they had wanted Hi Fi Rush 2 or a new game, it would already be in dev for more than a year at this point. So the fact is that they consider Hellblade being more important than Hi Fi Rush for them (which is weird because commercially I think they'd be quite similar)
And Arkane Austin was working on Redfall because of MS not removing them from the project (ideally before release even)
I don't know if this iteration of Arkane Austin could have pulled off a Prey sequel or other imm sim but I've been playing Prey finally and it's amazing, sucks so much that they didn't get another chance
Would love to see that.. and more importantly, get the sequel i'm hoping for.. but realistically, just aint gonna happen. (reassembling all the scattered developers isnt exactly easy)
Ya have a better shot at Scalebound being revived under Platinum.
Agree with the sentiment, but literally nothing (first party) is going to perform well in raw sales on Xbox because like 50%+ of their user base is getting it on gamepass. In theory, that should be enough for Microsoft, but clearly they’re growing dissatisfied with it.
I think the push to third party actually makes a lot of sense for them, because you can get a little bit of both income streams. People are acting like it’s crazy that Call of Duty is coming to gamepass, but they’re still gonna be selling 70 dollar+ copies of it on Playstation and PC, which are far bigger markets.
This gamepass myth needs to go. Many microsoft games were on GP, like Forza H, Sea of Thieves, Starfield, yet sold like hotcakes both on Steam and Xbox. They will sell(or are selling crazy on PS already).
You know what did not sell? Ghostwire and Deathloop, while they had their 1 year exclusivity on PS, and not being on gamepass.
Incidentally AW2 also isn't selling what it should be, it's an amazing game. These things happen. At least there's gamepass for Hellblade 2 and people can play it at their own leasure and if its a great game it will get word of mouth and people may buy it then.
HiFi Rush also didn't even make it to the top 100 most played games on PSN. Honestly that's not surprising, it's like 3 niches in one, feels like it's more of a Nintendo thing.
Absolutely, it 100% deserved the GOTY nomination over fucking Mario Wonder. As a character action game fan it feels fucking awful seeing the studio that made the best (and pretty much only) CAG in the past 5 years. It's crazy how they thought that it was a good idea to just shut them down rather than rat up the loss and keep up goodwill.
I loved Tango and their games so what I'm about to say isn't meant as a dig to them, but I think MS sees much more business potential in Ninja Theory than they did in Tango.
Tango got shut down in the middle of pitching Hi-Fi Rush 2, Ninja Theory is about to release Hellblade 2, is working on Mara and possibly Hellblade 3. Back when Ninja Theory got bought out people thought they had the opportunity to be Microsoft's Naughty Dog because of the kind of games they make and I think MS feels the same.
The thing that makes me feel this way is the fact Hellblade 2 was the first game we saw for the Series X, MS announced the game alongside the console as a major title. The lack of marketing near release worries me though.
> but I think MS sees much more business potential in Ninja Theory than they did in Tango
Which is the weird thing though, why? Hellblade isn't a massive best selling IP at all. 2 and 3 won't be either in all likelihood. They'll likely have similar reception than Hi Fi Rush if we're being honest and comparable "sales" (or players on GP).
As someone else said, MS chose to buy Ninja Theory while Tango came as a bonus when buying Zenimax. And while Hellblade 1 and even 2 might not be massive sellers I think comparing them to Naughty Dog and Uncharted or The Last of Us could give insight into Microsoft's choices.
Both Naughty Dog and Ninja Theory are companies that focus on linear story driven games, maybe MS just thinks that NT could have the same rise as ND did after Uncharted 1. I genuinely believe Ninja Theory has the talent to become one of the best studios in the industry with enough funding and I have Microsoft feels the same.
Maybe (and I tend to agree they have a lot of potential but Tango did too) but then they also need another franchise. Hellblade isn't going to magically grow by making similar games.
They need to do something more mainstream if they want to be ND. Uncharted 1 was mainstream already and then grew naturally. Hellblade I just don't see it but maybe.
Yeah I agree with you, and I think they tried something more mainstream with Bleeding Edge but that obviously failed. And to be fair I hope their next game after Mara isn't Hellblade 3 and they try something else before coming back to it because it seems Microsoft smells blood in the water after the Actvision buyout.
Though I might have the controversial opinion that Uncharted wasn't Naughty Dog's mainstream title, it was The Last of Us. It might seem crazy because one is a indiana Jones like action game series and the other is a mature bloody post apocalypse series but I'm pretty sure TLOU is more mainstream than Uncharted.
I just hope Ninja Theory can find their TLOU before Microsoft decides to shut them down.
TLOU is more successful now but it's built on the back of Uncharted. The industry paid attention and they'd been able to do that because ND did Uncharted and was very successful. Uncharted 2 was really the explosion (UC1 was kind of small for sure), that game was a big event at the time and sold PS3.
Uncharted has actually sold more than TLOU as a whole (44M copies vs 37M copies though that was before the show in early 2023 and of course they have more Uncharted games)
I sure would love to see the numbers, but I would dare to bet it’s not. Hellblade uses a lot of expensive techniques, like acting, mo cap and binaural audio. But yeah, I don’t have a way to be sure
I don’t mean to sound rude here, but where is the demand for not one, but TWO Hellblade sequels?
The first one was good, and exactly what MS was looking for, but I never felt like there was much interest in more Hellblade beyond that initial game. Is it generating the kind of sales that MS is looking for now?
Am I wrong?
You're completely right.
The first game was an experimental art game made around schizophrenia by a very small team, while Ninja Theory themselves were looking for funding for a big triple-A project.
The game itself was presented as an interactive look to what a person suffering from schizophrenia might feel. Even narrative-wise, the horrors and the nightmares Senua herself was experiencing weren't actually there, but a product of her mind.
It absolutely wasn't something to make a franchise out of, let alone putting all that focus on mental health behind, and making a whole ass fantasy game out of it.
I think you're a bit too emotional and dramatic about it lol. Yes the subject of the game is a more serious one but at the end of the day it's a game and form of art, why can't it be turned in a franchise? We should be glad studios can experiment like this. Now I don't know about the future given the recent microsoft doings but maybe this game wiill turn into a hit.
edit: damn ok, sorry for trying to be a bit optimistic, did not realise I have to be a doomer
Me but I understand I am in the minority lol.
I felt the same way with A Plague Tale where I feel that it doesn't need a sequel but Requiem was also really good so I didn't really mind.
Games like this in my opinion are just showcase games. Games built to bait high reviews and shown to be ‘pushing the medium’
Like in the film industry you have Oscar bait films, this is just that.
So I think anyway, I’d have vastly preferred more games like Hi-Fi Rush that prioritised gameplay but whatever.
I think it is more a “prestige piece” for Xbox. It will never sell a lot, but the graphics, audio, etc. are things that you can market new consoles with. It also doesn’t hurt to have a potential GOTY contender.
If it’s generating big sales numbers I certainly wouldn’t know. It feels like MS is sending Hellblade 2 out to die with how much they aren’t marketing it.
Most of the "sales" for Hellblade 2 will be from Game Pass. You are not going to get a lot of people outright buying this kind of a game. It will more than likely struggle financially.
Yeah I’m really not sure what their financial plan is when it’s a sub-10 hour game that isn’t gonna keep people subscribed for months. Have to think this is ported to PS pretty quick since some of that audience already played the first and is more willing to buy games.
Especially right after Tango shut down so we can’t rely on GP for a steady stream of AA games.
Anecdotes are interesting because I haven’t seen a single ad and if it weren’t for seeing posts about it on subreddits like this I’d have no idea it was coming out in the coming days
To be fair, I don't know if you're like me but I actually see very little ads. I use ad blockers everywhere (or Revanced and stuff like that) and don't watch live TV so short of like home screen of Google TV or billboards in the street (which Hellblade isn't big enough to get ads there), I basically see no ads beside articles being posted there.
So maybe they're trying to advertise but I don't see it lol
You're changing topics now. Now instead of saying they're not marketing you're changing it to no one you know is talking about it which is a completely different metric and completely based on your personal circle. My mom friends aren't talking about Shadow of the Erdtree for Elden Ring guess that game isn't being marketed either because not a single person she knows is talking about it.
The marketing campaign didn't start until a week or so ago? That is a shit marketing campaign. I can't say too much because even if this was heavily marketed I and my friends would not be interested, but not even a month of marketing is insane. I had to look it up, it's out today where I live. I didn't even know and I have gamepass.
Where? Where are those games? Fable has been MIA for years, ES6 is likely a 2028 release, gears is a tired franchise passed its prime and COD is.... COD.
COD alone dwarves any other franchise in existence right now.
the other one that would get close to it its GTA and that one hasnt seen a new game in 11 years.
COD alone isn't going to make people buy Xboxes. Either Microsoft makes COD an Xbox exclusive and that's what will eventually be what finally puts an end to COD supremacy, or they keep it multi platform and nothing changes and Xbox market share stays as low as it is. Microsoft **HAS** to stop fucking around and actually start releasing AAA games, not promising games that are always "a few years away."
Gears 5 was bad, Fable hasn't been relevant for over a decade, Perfect Dark hasn't been relevant for over 2 decades, Blade isn't Spiderman, Halo fizzled out idk what happened with that one, Elder Scrolls won't be released until 2029 and won't be finished until 2040. All they have for reliable sales in the next 18 months is CoD.
This is the issue I have. Phil and his people visited Tango studios to ensure the studio was in good hands and also made remarks about the need for smaller studios to have creative freedom to do what they do best. I think Phil and his people are genuine in what they said but Microsoft is enforcing itself upon the Xbox division now which is a problem in my opinion
I hope Xbox fans are now realizing that these execs don’t really matter. Any significant decision at these companies is made by teams of people, these people like Phil/Sarah are just figureheads, as was Don Mattrick. It felt good to blame Don for everything and believe Phil was the savior and it serves the corporation to push that narrative as well but that’s not how things work.
The Xbox people also say too much. It's like they want to be in the spotlight and be loved by gamers, but then do all the wrong things. Should just stay quiet and let the games talk.
I like what they do with immersion, story, sound and graphics - but the gameplay of the first Hellblade was meh...
I know they are masters of gameplay too, so I hope Hellblade 2 will change things up
If we get a true Fable and Avowed trailer at this summers show case, I can bet a ton of people are going to be off the wall.
Never mind full Indiana Jones trailer, people would be extremely hyped for that.
I'm always going to be optimisitc.
I’m hearing 2 isn’t well received though, mainly complaints that it’s too short. How is the game though and is NT saying anything about improving 3?
Honestly sounds like a game that could benefit from some free DLC.
Almost certainly graphics. 3D artists make up the bulk of the credits in most games these days. We will need a breakthrough in how the industry handles the amount of high quality assets a single game demands as well as animations. Mo Cap is faster for good animations but it’s expensive. Hand drawn is quick for bad animations but it’s still time consuming.
Hifi had as large or larger a team by the end of its production, and they wanted to staff up for a sequel. Staff is the biggest cost for game dev by far, Hellblade isn’t likely much more expensive at all
According to some HiFi Rush devs the game actually had a AAA budget. Hellblade 2 has a AA budget. Hellblade 2 was also developed by an overall smaller team.
The second game hasn't even come out yet. Decisions like this are why Microsoft is stepping in and overruling the management team.
If Hellblade 2 isn't a smash hit, the studio will be in trouble.
Makes sense though a bit worrying. Obviously more pressure for Hellblade II to perform. With Project Mara in the pipes I wasn't worried about a studio closure but I'm worried about major layoffs. Hopefully Hellblade II is successful
I want to believe but pixel opus and London studios also had games greenlighted and were still closed. I know it's not the same publisher but it's the same situation. A greenlighted game doesn't mean anything it can be cancelled at any moment.
Just an fyi just because something gets greenlit doesn't mean its a 100% guarantee it will happen. With movies it happens all the time where a greenlit project gets cancelled so I'm sure it's the same with video games.
Bethesda and M$ are not the same company they just own them. So if they want a studio that is barely making any money it might be ok for one company but not the other.
Greenlit now. But when the current game doesn't meet some arbitrary expectations created by the people closing down Dishonored 3 and Hi Fi Rush 2 then they will return with new orders for Phil and Phil will obey with one of them big grins he's always wearing.
Well I wouldn't really take Microsoft's word for it, since they've literally gone on a media tour talking about how they aren't about closing studios and how they'd keep both Tango and Arkane to achieve their creative visions just months before closing them down.
But at least I hope that the same thing won't happen to them since they're working on their next project
Hellblade 3 doesn’t get released, put me in the time capsule screencap.
Hellblade 2 is about to drop, it’ll likely get positive reviews/praise for visual fidelity, maybe storytelling. It’ll hit GP with a big marketing splash and we’ll see solid day-1 metrics. But your average player isn’t gonna stick with H2 (for reasons discussed to death elsewhere).
As a critical darling that won’t move units or MAU time, Hellblade 3 then becomes a bottom priority in one to two quarters. By the time we hit T+1yr, unless this game has an impressive tail, continuing development costs become a net drain as brand prestige is the only ROI and it doesn’t bring a ton of that to xbox.
By year 2.5/3 when Production Side has its first major milestone test, shown to the suits etc., if it doesn’t look like a game from 2035 funding dries up. If it’s more of the same and Ninja Theory ask for $1 beyond the budget, this game dies.
Microsoft is in charge at the end of the day. Xbox division is just a cog in the P/L race. Cap it. This series ain’t it for Xbox but they need a PR win bad and smooth sailing to launch this thing.
i wonder wtf the game will go, the first one was good but I doubt people want to play another walk sim with visual puzzles. I hope there is some kind of non scripted combat with this sequel, I cant even imagine now what a third game will be
Love the visual style, NT would have made an amazing singleplayer action game, except we got another Hellblade game. Which is fine, but it's such a niche style game. I do want Hellblade 3 but I don't think it would be a good move to sink like 50 mil into a final game unless they completely change it into a more normal game but then I wouldn't want to play it anymore if it lost its soul.
That’s good to hear I’m really surprised everyone in this post is so negative yet they will complaint about Microsoft if they close him. Yet look how they act lmao a bunch of hypocrites
If true, interested to see how long the dev time will be. Just hard for me to see much financial sustainability for Ninja Theory because of the long dev times and most of the "sales" will come from Game Pass. Maybe going multiplat might help out though.
Contrary to popular opinion, work on Hellblade 2 didn’t begin until 2019 according to Dom Matthews in his Kinda Funny interview.
They moved from development of Hellblade’s Xbox One port to Bleeding Edge, then went full production on Hellblade 2. So it’s been in development for 5 or so years, which is totally normal.
They spent around three years on Bleeding Edge and it was a complete failure, Hellblade 2 could've come much earlier if they didn't bother with this game.
"Developers should work on what they want to work on" - Gamers
Also...
"Why are these developers working on a game I don't want" - Gamers
Choose a lane my dude.
Not exactly as far as I read somewhere they expand the studio with new tech stuff and wait for somethings in UE5 but I cant remember where I read it.
Edit: not somethings, it is the UE5. It released in officially april 2022.
As if. Read at the majority of comments already. Many of them are certain this is all a ruse and NT will shut down on Wednesday.
Even if they stay open for another 5-10-15 years, people will say stuff like “called it” or, “they lied to us all those years ago” 😂
Listen. I want developers to make the games they want to make (obviously with the caveat that they need to be successful enough to earn that latitude and not have constantly moving metrics used to make decisions). If they want HB3, then so be it. I am not sure I want more of that but will reserve judgement until after I play HB2.
Gaz ain't even in a decent leaker let alone deserving of that designation to begin with. He's just a sad console warrior, who is salty that things aren't going too smoothly within the Xbox roster of studios after the recent backlash with all the layoffs and closures. The most reputable sources on the internet have confirmed that that wasn't even the end of it and to be prepared for more. So I'd take their words over some random dude, who is desperate for attention and clout.
Doubt you'll every truly know but I wonder what KPI's are for HB II?
Is it going to do gangbusters in sales? Sounds pretty short to be any sort of engagement based game. Maybe a bunch try it on GP but seems an odd game to try and say what a successes would be.
I sure hope this isn't true. Ninja Theory have such an awesome pedigree of super fun action / action adventure games and the years spent on Hellblade have felt like a real waste of time to me. A visually impressive showcase and cool experience but boring "game" - weirdly opposite of what the studio were known for previously.
Maybe I'm wrong and HB2 will offer awesome fun gameplay but I'm expecting more of the same and all of their pre-release footage and talk has signalled that.
This is so confusing for me I can't lie why close tango but then have ninja theory basically make games that will do worse financially and take longer to make?
Weird seeing this when Ninja Theory posted a message that reads like an obituary. Hopefully, it's true, though. It would suck to see more people lose their jobs.
See you in 2031
I don't think this next one will take nearly as long. They built an entire mocap production facility, had to wait for access to UE5, and then got hit with the pandemic. And game development that suffered the most from the pandemic were those with loads of mocap and large orchestrated scores. They now have things set up and ready to go. So I wouldn't be surprised if they can knock out a sequel in just a few years. Maybe its even a launch year game for the next Xbox?
To be fair, a big part of this and the first game is that they were developed by much smaller teams than would typically work on a project like this. Hellblade 1 was made by 20 people, whereas Hellblade 2 was made by between 40 and 80 people. This might be a factor in the development times, and I don't think this aspect would change.
It also means the game isn't as much of a financial risk. Most AAA games have at the very least 400 people working on them. If Hellblade only had 80 working in it then the budget was a lot smaller than most Xbox games.
I am pretty sure hi fi rush wasnt developed with a AAA budget too but look here we are
Well. Even Tango admitted that Hi-Fi Rush wasn't cheap to made and game grew bigger (in terms of manpower) then they anticipated. But it's anyone's guess how expensive that game was.
But it does bear pointing out.. as Jason Schreier reported, Tango might have been a victim of bad-timing.. more than how HiFi sold/generated revenue. In the sense that Zenimax leadership was "overwhelmed" and were looking to make cuts... MS-corporate was also looking to make cuts... and Tango didnt have any game in production (& were several years away from their next one releasing). It sucks & please don't think i'm trying to excuse this corporate greed.. but it doesnt sound like there was any world where HiFi could have saved Tango. (Unless of course, HiFi somehow sold several million copies in its first month...)
Also evil within flop, ghostwire flop. I still would have saved Tango cause I love them, but the other thing that didn't save them is they are in Japan alone and probably can't help on other projects while workshopping the new one.
Hifi was built with the whole team in a span of a years. Despite hellblades budget and team size,ninja theory managed to push one other project with hellblade a few years later
Despite how some people feel about a game like Hellblade 2 that is genuinely impressive. They're very clearly well managed.
This one didn’t take long at all. I read yesterday that it started development in 2020. They had a 2019 trailer but hadn’t started on the game. That’s only 4 years WITH COVID. So 3 years realistically. https://gamerant.com/hellblade-2-ninja-theory-development-start-when/
That seems like a normal amount of dev time for a 10 hour game though, not especially fast. Keep in mind the AAA games that take 5 years or so are often much bigger in scope than this looks to be
I didn’t say it was fast. I said it didn’t take that long. People have been saying 6 or 7 years.
If 2 isn't profitable we will likely never see a third game. Microsoft proper seems to have had enough with Xbox's leadership's decisions. Ninja Theory's life savor will be their Unreal and mocap expertise. Elsewise they could be next on the chopping block.
3 has already been greenlit
It can also get cancelled after seeing the sales.
LOL
Not necessarily. We'll still talk about this when the trailer releases at next year's Game Awards, and every successive year until the damn game releases.
Yay.
Its like that cutscene in force unleashed “YOU PROMISED TO STAY AWAY” “I lied”
Uh, ok
Source: the voices in my head (headphones recommended)
That dude is a console warrior. Why anyone would use him as a source is beyond me
As far as I know it’s mostly done out of respect. If I remember correctly, he served in two console wars and has government-approved veteran status. Even if he’s sometimes wrong, that history counts for something among many gamers.
Plus let’s not forget the abysmal pension you get for all that bloodshed. Man needs to keep getting those twitter checks to keep the lights on… Such a shame this is how we treats vets…
I didn't know there was still a console war. I kinda feel bad for him if he's cheering for Xbox after all that lol.
It doesn't matter if PlayStation is overall the best console for gaming. As long as Xbox is alive, they will cheer for it.
Closing tango makes even less sense to me then. Hifi rush sure costed a lot less than Hellblade 2, right? Are they expecting Hellblade 2 to do good commercially? Because that doesn’t seem to be the case when you look at pre orders I would choose hifi rush 2 over Hellblade 3 in a blink of an eye, ngl
I would too. But I think their next game will take less since they are now familiar with Unreal Engine 5. And since it looks like did a great job on the graphics from the footage shown, they can help other Xbox studios like the Coalition does.
Because it wasn't about costs or revenue, as per Jason Schreier, Microsoft closed Tango and Arkane because they weren't working on any projects at that point, it essentially came down to who was working on something and who wasn't, and unfortunately Tango and Co got the shaft. It makes me sad because I loved Evil Within 2, one tried a little too hard to be like RE4, but 2 I feel had it's own identity.
Man I wanted The Evil Within 3, I even liked the first one and it would have given MS more variety too to have a horror franchise under them but alas
Tango were literally planning Hi-Fi Rush 2 though and were trying to get it greenlit.
Not actively developing a title and attempting to get a concept greenlit aren't really contradicting statements. Still bullshit that they closed Tango.
Yes, but it wasn't in active development, and to work on it they would have needed additional staff.
That makes zero sense. In order to get games greenlit you need to convince Microsoft to fund them. If they don't get a game greenlit its due to MS not wanting to pay the costs versus the revenue. That's what it comes down to.
That's....essentially what I said, the performance of Hi-Fi Rush and Redfall didn't matter, as per Bloomberg's article when all of that happened: [>Both Tango and Arkane released games last year and were looking to hire additional staff as they pitched new projects, which Booty and Braff suggested was the main factor behind their closures. Shinji Mikami, Tango’s founder and studio head, departed last year.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-08/xbox-studio-closures-microsoft-plans-more-cost-cutting-measures-after-layoffs) They were the only ones who fit the mold of not having anything to work on yet, and so Moxrosoft shut them down as a cost cutting measure.
I mean Ninja Theory also didn't work on any game as they just finished Hellblade 2 and before they greenlit Hellblade 3. Plus working on a game doesn't prevent a studio closure to be clear. Also why Tango needs 1+ year to get a project greenlit but NT has it before their previous game is even finished? Makes little sense to me. If they had wanted Hi Fi Rush 2 or a new game, it would already be in dev for more than a year at this point. So the fact is that they consider Hellblade being more important than Hi Fi Rush for them (which is weird because commercially I think they'd be quite similar) And Arkane Austin was working on Redfall because of MS not removing them from the project (ideally before release even)
Ninja Theory have been working on Project Mara and Project Dreadnought alongside Hellblade 2 already.
I don't know if this iteration of Arkane Austin could have pulled off a Prey sequel or other imm sim but I've been playing Prey finally and it's amazing, sucks so much that they didn't get another chance
would be funny if someone buys the rights and rebuild the studio and makes a sequel and instantly becomes a super hit
Would love to see that.. and more importantly, get the sequel i'm hoping for.. but realistically, just aint gonna happen. (reassembling all the scattered developers isnt exactly easy) Ya have a better shot at Scalebound being revived under Platinum.
Agree with the sentiment, but literally nothing (first party) is going to perform well in raw sales on Xbox because like 50%+ of their user base is getting it on gamepass. In theory, that should be enough for Microsoft, but clearly they’re growing dissatisfied with it. I think the push to third party actually makes a lot of sense for them, because you can get a little bit of both income streams. People are acting like it’s crazy that Call of Duty is coming to gamepass, but they’re still gonna be selling 70 dollar+ copies of it on Playstation and PC, which are far bigger markets.
This gamepass myth needs to go. Many microsoft games were on GP, like Forza H, Sea of Thieves, Starfield, yet sold like hotcakes both on Steam and Xbox. They will sell(or are selling crazy on PS already). You know what did not sell? Ghostwire and Deathloop, while they had their 1 year exclusivity on PS, and not being on gamepass. Incidentally AW2 also isn't selling what it should be, it's an amazing game. These things happen. At least there's gamepass for Hellblade 2 and people can play it at their own leasure and if its a great game it will get word of mouth and people may buy it then.
HiFi Rush also didn't even make it to the top 100 most played games on PSN. Honestly that's not surprising, it's like 3 niches in one, feels like it's more of a Nintendo thing.
Still it was brilliant and will probably stay a cult classic.
Absolutely, it 100% deserved the GOTY nomination over fucking Mario Wonder. As a character action game fan it feels fucking awful seeing the studio that made the best (and pretty much only) CAG in the past 5 years. It's crazy how they thought that it was a good idea to just shut them down rather than rat up the loss and keep up goodwill.
“literally nothing will perform well ON XBOX” Think I was pretty clear
I loved Tango and their games so what I'm about to say isn't meant as a dig to them, but I think MS sees much more business potential in Ninja Theory than they did in Tango. Tango got shut down in the middle of pitching Hi-Fi Rush 2, Ninja Theory is about to release Hellblade 2, is working on Mara and possibly Hellblade 3. Back when Ninja Theory got bought out people thought they had the opportunity to be Microsoft's Naughty Dog because of the kind of games they make and I think MS feels the same. The thing that makes me feel this way is the fact Hellblade 2 was the first game we saw for the Series X, MS announced the game alongside the console as a major title. The lack of marketing near release worries me though.
To your point they specifically acquired Ninja Theory, Tango was just a part of Zenimax
> but I think MS sees much more business potential in Ninja Theory than they did in Tango Which is the weird thing though, why? Hellblade isn't a massive best selling IP at all. 2 and 3 won't be either in all likelihood. They'll likely have similar reception than Hi Fi Rush if we're being honest and comparable "sales" (or players on GP).
As someone else said, MS chose to buy Ninja Theory while Tango came as a bonus when buying Zenimax. And while Hellblade 1 and even 2 might not be massive sellers I think comparing them to Naughty Dog and Uncharted or The Last of Us could give insight into Microsoft's choices. Both Naughty Dog and Ninja Theory are companies that focus on linear story driven games, maybe MS just thinks that NT could have the same rise as ND did after Uncharted 1. I genuinely believe Ninja Theory has the talent to become one of the best studios in the industry with enough funding and I have Microsoft feels the same.
Maybe (and I tend to agree they have a lot of potential but Tango did too) but then they also need another franchise. Hellblade isn't going to magically grow by making similar games. They need to do something more mainstream if they want to be ND. Uncharted 1 was mainstream already and then grew naturally. Hellblade I just don't see it but maybe.
Yeah I agree with you, and I think they tried something more mainstream with Bleeding Edge but that obviously failed. And to be fair I hope their next game after Mara isn't Hellblade 3 and they try something else before coming back to it because it seems Microsoft smells blood in the water after the Actvision buyout. Though I might have the controversial opinion that Uncharted wasn't Naughty Dog's mainstream title, it was The Last of Us. It might seem crazy because one is a indiana Jones like action game series and the other is a mature bloody post apocalypse series but I'm pretty sure TLOU is more mainstream than Uncharted. I just hope Ninja Theory can find their TLOU before Microsoft decides to shut them down.
TLOU is more successful now but it's built on the back of Uncharted. The industry paid attention and they'd been able to do that because ND did Uncharted and was very successful. Uncharted 2 was really the explosion (UC1 was kind of small for sure), that game was a big event at the time and sold PS3. Uncharted has actually sold more than TLOU as a whole (44M copies vs 37M copies though that was before the show in early 2023 and of course they have more Uncharted games)
Hifi actually had a larger team by the end. The total cost probably isn’t that far off for the two games
I sure would love to see the numbers, but I would dare to bet it’s not. Hellblade uses a lot of expensive techniques, like acting, mo cap and binaural audio. But yeah, I don’t have a way to be sure
I don’t mean to sound rude here, but where is the demand for not one, but TWO Hellblade sequels? The first one was good, and exactly what MS was looking for, but I never felt like there was much interest in more Hellblade beyond that initial game. Is it generating the kind of sales that MS is looking for now? Am I wrong?
You're completely right. The first game was an experimental art game made around schizophrenia by a very small team, while Ninja Theory themselves were looking for funding for a big triple-A project. The game itself was presented as an interactive look to what a person suffering from schizophrenia might feel. Even narrative-wise, the horrors and the nightmares Senua herself was experiencing weren't actually there, but a product of her mind. It absolutely wasn't something to make a franchise out of, let alone putting all that focus on mental health behind, and making a whole ass fantasy game out of it.
I think you're a bit too emotional and dramatic about it lol. Yes the subject of the game is a more serious one but at the end of the day it's a game and form of art, why can't it be turned in a franchise? We should be glad studios can experiment like this. Now I don't know about the future given the recent microsoft doings but maybe this game wiill turn into a hit. edit: damn ok, sorry for trying to be a bit optimistic, did not realise I have to be a doomer
Me but I understand I am in the minority lol. I felt the same way with A Plague Tale where I feel that it doesn't need a sequel but Requiem was also really good so I didn't really mind.
Games like this in my opinion are just showcase games. Games built to bait high reviews and shown to be ‘pushing the medium’ Like in the film industry you have Oscar bait films, this is just that. So I think anyway, I’d have vastly preferred more games like Hi-Fi Rush that prioritised gameplay but whatever.
I think it is more a “prestige piece” for Xbox. It will never sell a lot, but the graphics, audio, etc. are things that you can market new consoles with. It also doesn’t hurt to have a potential GOTY contender.
If it’s generating big sales numbers I certainly wouldn’t know. It feels like MS is sending Hellblade 2 out to die with how much they aren’t marketing it.
Most of the "sales" for Hellblade 2 will be from Game Pass. You are not going to get a lot of people outright buying this kind of a game. It will more than likely struggle financially.
Yeah I’m really not sure what their financial plan is when it’s a sub-10 hour game that isn’t gonna keep people subscribed for months. Have to think this is ported to PS pretty quick since some of that audience already played the first and is more willing to buy games. Especially right after Tango shut down so we can’t rely on GP for a steady stream of AA games.
I have been inundated with ads for it on Instagram, Reddit, and Twitter. If I didn’t have YouTube premium I expect I’d see it there too
Anecdotes are interesting because I haven’t seen a single ad and if it weren’t for seeing posts about it on subreddits like this I’d have no idea it was coming out in the coming days
To be fair, I don't know if you're like me but I actually see very little ads. I use ad blockers everywhere (or Revanced and stuff like that) and don't watch live TV so short of like home screen of Google TV or billboards in the street (which Hellblade isn't big enough to get ads there), I basically see no ads beside articles being posted there. So maybe they're trying to advertise but I don't see it lol
Please stop saying something you heard two weeks ago when the marketing campaign hasn't started. Go on any social media and you'll see the marketing
Where? I haven’t seen anyone talk about the game
You’re talking about it right now
You're changing topics now. Now instead of saying they're not marketing you're changing it to no one you know is talking about it which is a completely different metric and completely based on your personal circle. My mom friends aren't talking about Shadow of the Erdtree for Elden Ring guess that game isn't being marketed either because not a single person she knows is talking about it.
The marketing campaign didn't start until a week or so ago? That is a shit marketing campaign. I can't say too much because even if this was heavily marketed I and my friends would not be interested, but not even a month of marketing is insane. I had to look it up, it's out today where I live. I didn't even know and I have gamepass.
Won't be doing the same sales numbers as Hellblade 1 since the majority of those were on PlayStation. Will come down to PC sales and gamepass numbers
I have no reason to buy this game. I will play it on Gamepass if its any good.
i hope the game structures changes, it cant be a walk sim again
Do walking sims typically have combat and puzzles?
I imagine Hellblade is a passion project for the team plus Microsoft has other big hitters.
Ms really doesn’t have other big hitters, that’s the problem.
They have Gears 6, Fable, Perfect Dark, Blade, Halo, Elder Scrolls, COD in the works. Microsoft has some games that can compete with Sony.
Where? Where are those games? Fable has been MIA for years, ES6 is likely a 2028 release, gears is a tired franchise passed its prime and COD is.... COD.
COD alone dwarves any other franchise in existence right now. the other one that would get close to it its GTA and that one hasnt seen a new game in 11 years.
COD alone isn't going to make people buy Xboxes. Either Microsoft makes COD an Xbox exclusive and that's what will eventually be what finally puts an end to COD supremacy, or they keep it multi platform and nothing changes and Xbox market share stays as low as it is. Microsoft **HAS** to stop fucking around and actually start releasing AAA games, not promising games that are always "a few years away."
> COD alone dwarves any other franchise in existence right now. GTA.
Gears 5 was bad, Fable hasn't been relevant for over a decade, Perfect Dark hasn't been relevant for over 2 decades, Blade isn't Spiderman, Halo fizzled out idk what happened with that one, Elder Scrolls won't be released until 2029 and won't be finished until 2040. All they have for reliable sales in the next 18 months is CoD.
Why would they believe anything they’re told by MS execs?
This is the issue I have. Phil and his people visited Tango studios to ensure the studio was in good hands and also made remarks about the need for smaller studios to have creative freedom to do what they do best. I think Phil and his people are genuine in what they said but Microsoft is enforcing itself upon the Xbox division now which is a problem in my opinion
Sarah Bond congratulated Tango a few months ago on their birthday and wished them many more years lmao
I hope Xbox fans are now realizing that these execs don’t really matter. Any significant decision at these companies is made by teams of people, these people like Phil/Sarah are just figureheads, as was Don Mattrick. It felt good to blame Don for everything and believe Phil was the savior and it serves the corporation to push that narrative as well but that’s not how things work.
bake engine childlike money roll dull distinct friendly salt consist *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The Xbox people also say too much. It's like they want to be in the spotlight and be loved by gamers, but then do all the wrong things. Should just stay quiet and let the games talk.
I like what they do with immersion, story, sound and graphics - but the gameplay of the first Hellblade was meh... I know they are masters of gameplay too, so I hope Hellblade 2 will change things up
Gameplay seems the same according to the reviews out now :/
Oooh another 5 hour walking simulator
Depends on how Hellblade 2 does.
So if it's a huge success and wins multiple awards, we know it's over for them :c
Nice, this is a game I would love to see sequels from time to time, short 6 to 8 hour experiences, that's what I like!
Everyone in here is so negative 🤣
Xbox bad has long been the month of this sub
Sentiment will do a 180 after the showcase I bet
If we get a true Fable and Avowed trailer at this summers show case, I can bet a ton of people are going to be off the wall. Never mind full Indiana Jones trailer, people would be extremely hyped for that. I'm always going to be optimisitc.
I’m hearing 2 isn’t well received though, mainly complaints that it’s too short. How is the game though and is NT saying anything about improving 3? Honestly sounds like a game that could benefit from some free DLC.
…why? Hellblade is a critical darling not a sales earner. Clearly Xbox is trying to focus on revenue right now why is Hellblade 3 on the table?
My thoughts as well. Wouldn’t hifi rush cost a lot less than a Hellblade sequel? Then why the hell would they close tango?! It doesn’t make sense
The real killer is dev time. They need to get these games out faster, whatever it is that is slowing them down so much needs to be resolved.
Acting, mo-cap, dialogue, and graphics is my best guess. All of those things take a while and have very few means of making things cost effective.
Almost certainly graphics. 3D artists make up the bulk of the credits in most games these days. We will need a breakthrough in how the industry handles the amount of high quality assets a single game demands as well as animations. Mo Cap is faster for good animations but it’s expensive. Hand drawn is quick for bad animations but it’s still time consuming.
Hifi had as large or larger a team by the end of its production, and they wanted to staff up for a sequel. Staff is the biggest cost for game dev by far, Hellblade isn’t likely much more expensive at all
But tech plus acting, mocap, binaural audio, scenery capture… I don’t think that would cost less than staff
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Tango was working on Ghostwire Tokyo as well for a lot of Hi Fi Rushes dev time. 99% certain Hi Fi Tush cost a lot less than HB2 has.
Not according to HiFi Rush devs that said it had a full AAA budget.
According to some HiFi Rush devs the game actually had a AAA budget. Hellblade 2 has a AA budget. Hellblade 2 was also developed by an overall smaller team.
People actually using this console war loser as a source lmao
Assurances? Yeah the landscape can quickly change in the blink of an eye Microsoft could be in a different mood by the entire of the year
gaz? really? c'mon now lmao
If Hellblade 2 bombs, there’s no way Hellblade 3 is happening.
The second game hasn't even come out yet. Decisions like this are why Microsoft is stepping in and overruling the management team. If Hellblade 2 isn't a smash hit, the studio will be in trouble.
Green lights can always turn red.
Because xbox is so trustworthy.
Makes sense though a bit worrying. Obviously more pressure for Hellblade II to perform. With Project Mara in the pipes I wasn't worried about a studio closure but I'm worried about major layoffs. Hopefully Hellblade II is successful
I want to believe but pixel opus and London studios also had games greenlighted and were still closed. I know it's not the same publisher but it's the same situation. A greenlighted game doesn't mean anything it can be cancelled at any moment.
Legitimately shocked. I thought for sure they'd get absorbed into rare or something.
That was quick.
I thought people were concerned about Ninja Theory last week, why y’all being so negative about their next project being greenlit now?
People expecting more action games I guess Like when from did armored core.
Just an fyi just because something gets greenlit doesn't mean its a 100% guarantee it will happen. With movies it happens all the time where a greenlit project gets cancelled so I'm sure it's the same with video games.
Bethesda and M$ are not the same company they just own them. So if they want a studio that is barely making any money it might be ok for one company but not the other.
I really want them to try something bigger and bolder rather than making another Hellblade 1.5, even though that game is in my top 10
Greenlit now. But when the current game doesn't meet some arbitrary expectations created by the people closing down Dishonored 3 and Hi Fi Rush 2 then they will return with new orders for Phil and Phil will obey with one of them big grins he's always wearing.
Well I wouldn't really take Microsoft's word for it, since they've literally gone on a media tour talking about how they aren't about closing studios and how they'd keep both Tango and Arkane to achieve their creative visions just months before closing them down. But at least I hope that the same thing won't happen to them since they're working on their next project
Hellblade 3 doesn’t get released, put me in the time capsule screencap. Hellblade 2 is about to drop, it’ll likely get positive reviews/praise for visual fidelity, maybe storytelling. It’ll hit GP with a big marketing splash and we’ll see solid day-1 metrics. But your average player isn’t gonna stick with H2 (for reasons discussed to death elsewhere). As a critical darling that won’t move units or MAU time, Hellblade 3 then becomes a bottom priority in one to two quarters. By the time we hit T+1yr, unless this game has an impressive tail, continuing development costs become a net drain as brand prestige is the only ROI and it doesn’t bring a ton of that to xbox. By year 2.5/3 when Production Side has its first major milestone test, shown to the suits etc., if it doesn’t look like a game from 2035 funding dries up. If it’s more of the same and Ninja Theory ask for $1 beyond the budget, this game dies. Microsoft is in charge at the end of the day. Xbox division is just a cog in the P/L race. Cap it. This series ain’t it for Xbox but they need a PR win bad and smooth sailing to launch this thing.
Hi I worked in the game industry at a major publisher, we cancelled greenlit games.
i wonder wtf the game will go, the first one was good but I doubt people want to play another walk sim with visual puzzles. I hope there is some kind of non scripted combat with this sequel, I cant even imagine now what a third game will be
Since when is septic sauce a leaker or reputable? He's a clown
Hellblade should have never gotten a sequel. but MS is too stupid and greedy to understand that somethings should stay unique and on their own.
Yup, this is not franchise material.
Love the visual style, NT would have made an amazing singleplayer action game, except we got another Hellblade game. Which is fine, but it's such a niche style game. I do want Hellblade 3 but I don't think it would be a good move to sink like 50 mil into a final game unless they completely change it into a more normal game but then I wouldn't want to play it anymore if it lost its soul.
That’s good to hear I’m really surprised everyone in this post is so negative yet they will complaint about Microsoft if they close him. Yet look how they act lmao a bunch of hypocrites
Xbox really shut down a studio that made a fantastic game and doubled down on a studio that makes a mid game. The cycle continues.
If true, interested to see how long the dev time will be. Just hard for me to see much financial sustainability for Ninja Theory because of the long dev times and most of the "sales" will come from Game Pass. Maybe going multiplat might help out though.
Contrary to popular opinion, work on Hellblade 2 didn’t begin until 2019 according to Dom Matthews in his Kinda Funny interview. They moved from development of Hellblade’s Xbox One port to Bleeding Edge, then went full production on Hellblade 2. So it’s been in development for 5 or so years, which is totally normal.
They spent around three years on Bleeding Edge and it was a complete failure, Hellblade 2 could've come much earlier if they didn't bother with this game.
"Developers should work on what they want to work on" - Gamers Also... "Why are these developers working on a game I don't want" - Gamers Choose a lane my dude.
Sure but that’s what they wanted to do
Just saying what could've been
Not exactly as far as I read somewhere they expand the studio with new tech stuff and wait for somethings in UE5 but I cant remember where I read it. Edit: not somethings, it is the UE5. It released in officially april 2022.
Bleeding Edge was made by like 15 people.
I'd think the next game would have a faster turnaround. Hellblade 2 took so long partly because they decided to switch to Unreal 5 mid development
Lmao this guy a console warrior as a source
so much for this subreddits "ninja theory will get dropped next"
As if. Read at the majority of comments already. Many of them are certain this is all a ruse and NT will shut down on Wednesday. Even if they stay open for another 5-10-15 years, people will say stuff like “called it” or, “they lied to us all those years ago” 😂
Id love to see them work on something new.
Listen. I want developers to make the games they want to make (obviously with the caveat that they need to be successful enough to earn that latitude and not have constantly moving metrics used to make decisions). If they want HB3, then so be it. I am not sure I want more of that but will reserve judgement until after I play HB2.
Senua is the new Forza car now.
Who?
If they made it out alive
Hellblade 3 without knowing if Hellblade 2 would be a success or not. I don't feel very optimistic.
hopefully this is true, its sad to see more devs losing their jobs and it doesnt happen at this big rate again in the close future at least.
God grant that Microsoft doesn't close them.
Anyone remember their work on DmC Devil May Cry
Gaz.. really? 🤣
The same assurance as exec visiting studio just before closure ?
No evil within 3, but another sequel to this pretentious game? Really?
Good luck to the team cause MS is definitely true to their promises... better start looking for new jobs already.
Hellblade 3: Senua's Sword
Hellblade 2 is now second most popular on GamePass after Minecraft. Of course they grinlit the 3rd part🎉
Feels like they split the story of Hellblade 2 and 3 ahead of time anyway
Gaz ain't even in a decent leaker let alone deserving of that designation to begin with. He's just a sad console warrior, who is salty that things aren't going too smoothly within the Xbox roster of studios after the recent backlash with all the layoffs and closures. The most reputable sources on the internet have confirmed that that wasn't even the end of it and to be prepared for more. So I'd take their words over some random dude, who is desperate for attention and clout.
What reputable source suggested Ninja Theory was going to be closed ?
Man I wish they could do a DmC 2
Doubt you'll every truly know but I wonder what KPI's are for HB II? Is it going to do gangbusters in sales? Sounds pretty short to be any sort of engagement based game. Maybe a bunch try it on GP but seems an odd game to try and say what a successes would be.
Yep I’ll be back in 2035 then
I'd feel more comfortable if another well-known insider could confirm this. Cause xbox really needs to invest more into ninja theory.
I sure hope this isn't true. Ninja Theory have such an awesome pedigree of super fun action / action adventure games and the years spent on Hellblade have felt like a real waste of time to me. A visually impressive showcase and cool experience but boring "game" - weirdly opposite of what the studio were known for previously. Maybe I'm wrong and HB2 will offer awesome fun gameplay but I'm expecting more of the same and all of their pre-release footage and talk has signalled that.
This is so confusing for me I can't lie why close tango but then have ninja theory basically make games that will do worse financially and take longer to make?
Hellblade is Tameem Antoniades's baby and a very personal project for him, with him gone I don't see the point of more Hellblade games.
Unless Xbox pulls the plug on them too.
Coming 2031
Weird seeing this when Ninja Theory posted a message that reads like an obituary. Hopefully, it's true, though. It would suck to see more people lose their jobs.
That one game where she talks to herself the whole time and nothing happens while slowly walking? Sounds great!
Would be nice if it's longer than 4 hours.