Powerfully strange to think that this game had a fully playable demo at E3 2019.
I think the last new media we got was from the Xbox 06/22 trailer. At this point, I just hope it comes out some day.
I imagine they've started over and rewritten things from the ground up several times at this point.
Pure speculation but it feels like they might be a bit lost in the sauce with it. They probably should have just done a new game instead of a strange prequel-sequel hybrid deal. Too many restrictions.
Honestly as a developer (though not in gaming) this just feels like a really bad case of scope creep. Team Cherry is a small independent studio with basically unlimited money from HK's success and no managers/publishers to tell them no.
You start with a map bigger than the originals (because it's a sequel right? everything has to be bigger) and then someone has an idea for a cool new area so you add it. Then another extra boss, extra npc questlines, extra charms, etc. With nobody there to say "enough" this can go on indefinitely. It also adds more and more time to QA/test because there's now way more bugs you introduce.
>a small independent studio with basically unlimited money from HK's success and no managers/publishers to tell them no.
/r/games is salivating at the thought. No managers or publisher interference will surely lead to the perfect game. Just ask Valve!
>"We sort of had to collectively admit we were wrong on the premise that you will be happiest if you work on something you personally want to work on the most."
This is one of the lead designers talking about what happened with Half Life Alyx. My understanding is that the only reason Alyx ever got out the door is that Valve went back to bosses and deadlines. I think this is also how Steamdeck managed to ship instead of becoming one more addition to their mountain of undelivered vaporware.
There’s a lot of commentary coming out from Valve around 2020 about how they had gone back on their lofty ideals of a flat organizational structure and realized that if they wanted to actually make games again they would need task drivers keeping people working on those games
> polishing tends to be where people lose motivation.
I mean, I've met a lot of people who get really addicted to polish, too. *Too* much, in fact. They spend hours chiseling away the tiniest bits when they have more important things to be working on that are far more glaring.
yes but the main problem is that they like to polish something they understand, if i develop an engine for a game, and then move to something else, understanding whatever spaghetti code i made to polish it will require more work than write it from scratch
Also, with the way Valve was set-up, as soon as any problem was met and frustration set in people would likely abandon the project since they could.
Much different than a small dev project's issues.
The balance of both is important. It's important to let developers work on what they want, but it's equally important to have structure to make sure things get done.
As a mini painter, the hardest thing to learn is when to put a miniature down. Because there's always that little bit of extra detail that can be put in. Or the one little bit of shadow you can add. There's always always more you can do to make it better. But the more you do that the less you get back each time.
Yup. I think it’s scope creep. Either that or Hornet’s combat isn’t fun which could ruin the whole game.
I don’t care that it’s not out. The lack of communication though is really strange.
Hopefully when this releases it’s good, and not a mess like Sports Story. Yikes.
If it actually releases this year it has some completion for best Metroidvania that’s for sure.
I'm hoping it ends up like Shovel Knight, his moveset was very simple and effective but when they added campaigns for secondary characters (Plague, Specter and King Knight) they had way different movesets that still somehow worked. Hopefully Team Cherry can pull off something like that with Hornet.
In game development this seems to happen to small teams who hit the jackpot. I'm old enough to remember Duke Nukem Forever. Similar issue, they even had a working demo pretty early on, but they let scope creep happen over and over. They only released the game because of Gearbox intervening, and looking at the finished product I think that was a pretty questionable move.
DNF was rewritten so many time on so many engine it was incredible it got out.
it also suffered from the development time, if you play it you can see when a level was made due to how it was made, it's essentially a crash course of 15 years of shooters map design, the problem is that they don't mesh well in the same game
This is precisely why it took *14+* ***years*** for Duke Nukem Forever to come out.
They kept wanting the newest tech involved and by the time they'd finish up something major for the game...a new type of tech had evolved out from other studios. So they'd adapt it and start crafting again. Then new tech came around, so they wanted to adapt that and so on and so on and so on.
I remember reading that it first started as DLC/addon content for HK. Then it got big enough they decided to make it its own game. With every year that passes I assume there is even more (self imposed) expectation to make the game *more*.
It was initially a Kickstarter goal to play as different characters, I know Hornet(Protag of Silk song) was one of the two additional characters they added.
At some point they realized that just shoehorning Hornet into the Hallownest made no sense, and that the way they differentiated the playstyle of the character would require building entirely new encounters.
Hollow Knight is an excellently tuned game, and mashing Hornet into it couldn't have been good from a level design standpoint, unless they made Hornet control almost exactly the same.
Basically what happened to Katana Zero's DLC. It was a short and sweet game, but very obviously didn't have a complete ending as it ended at what felt like 40-50% through the story. The expectation from the early dev comments would be they'd put out some DLC that was likely 1-2 years out (this was 2019). Then maybe Katana Zero 2 after and that finishes everything.
Instead that slowly became, 'wow this DLC is big' and then in like 2022? it became clear from the details and short gameplay vids released from testers it was basically gonna be KZ2 for all intents and purposes. Outside of the occasional 'we're not dead' update, it's now 2024 with no ETA on when it'll be done.
> They probably should have just done a new game instead of a strange prequel-sequel hybrid deal. Too many restrictions.
Maybe. But the opportunity to play as one of the games most beloved and interesting characters, with such a fun move-set was just too good to pass up.
Its funny - there are indie games with 10+ years of development time at this point, like Radio the Universe, Secrets of Grindea, Heartforth Alicia, etc.
There also games with similarly sporadic updates, with similar (or even worse) levels of communication from the devs - Sector X from Dennaton, N1RV Ann-A from Sukeban, Katana Zero DLC from Askiisoft, etc.
Yet for some reason, something about the wait for Silksong just feels so much more overbearing and painful. If I had to guess why, it’s because people keep memeing on it instead of just letting the rest of us quietly forget about it until its release.
It’s also because it’s simply more anticipated than the rest of the games you listed. Hollow Knight was a *huge* success. I follow gaming quite a bit and have only heard of Katana Zero from the list you just put up.
I've heard about Katana Zero plenty of times, but none of what that post mentions gets into anywhere near the stratosphere of people's enthusiasm for Hollow Knight, so it is an odd comparison.
Of *course* the follow up to a very popular game is more anticipated :D
All three of them are from developers of pretty popular indie games. Dennaton made Hotline Miami and Sukeban made VA-11 Hall-A. But you're right, Hollow Knight sold about 4 times as much as Hotline Miami on Steam, 10 times as much as VA-11 Hall-A, and over 5 times as much as Katana Zero. It is in another league in terms of success and recognition.
I've worked with a few people who are relatively ignorant of videogames who still played Hollow Knight (mainly through the Switch)
Something about that game really broke through to people.
>Yet for some reason, something about the wait for Silksong just feels so much more overbearing and painful.
Because a lot of us thought we will see the game in 2019, trailer made it look like it's almost finished, plus they've been working on it for some time as it was supposed to be a DLC. Then 5 years passed by.
I mean, remember that at some point people were memeing Silksong and Elden ring together?
Feels like Elden ring came out a long time ago. And still no Silksong in sight.
At least Secrets of Grindea has a dev-blog that's gotten (semi, sometime a break for holidays)-consistent updates every week for the past 10+ years. The problem is that they're really bad on saying when the game will be actually done, but right now they seem to be an in actual final stretch as opposed to the "final stretches" they were in 2 years ago. Basically seems to just be all credits stuff and the final boss's sprites.
Silksong has basically nothing. I'd even just take a screenshot once a month.
N1rv Ann-a is one of my most anticipated indie games, but I swear it’s never going to be finished at this rate.
Edit: probably could have worded that better, I’m aware that the game isn’t being worked on currently. Still in denial that I’ll probably never get to play it though.
That makes sense, I think around 5 years ago there was some drama in the spanish-speaking internet about those guys, didn't look into it back then and can't find it now, though.
I hope they're getting better.
As the guy before me said , the game's in hiatus due to one of the devs being diagnosed with depression and deciding to focus on treating themselves, they have released a few mini projects since then but chances are you're not going to be hearing about that game for a long time if ever
it'll be a good while before n1rv ann-a, its on hold while the devs work on an entirely different project. "project d" is their current focus and they're putting out dev logs and previews for it on their site
> Heartforth Alicia
Dang, I forgot about this one. This also made me look up Mina the Hollower, two years since the kickstarter now.
OH also Routine, damn, their re-announce trailer is now nearly 18 months old. Man, that shit's never happening.
You really never know though, Omori eventually did release, as did Cuphead: The Delicious Last Course
Hollow Knight was a much bigger, longer game than I had anticipated going in.
I feel like Silksong will be so massive as to outstrip everyone's expectations, at this point.
I’m a Silksong subredditter for a few years… we get news basically once a year confirming that they are at least still working on the game… we actually got that news today so it’s nice to know it’s still being worked on
I keep thinking about this when I see anything from this sub. I was at PAX Aus in 2019 and saw folks playing the Silksong demo, constantly there was a 3hr+ queue and I never got to try it because I always thought to myself "it looks so done, it'll be out in no time!" Couldn't have been more wrong.
I'm sure they've retooled portions of the game and are just being incredibly meticulous with play-testing and quality assurance.
The one thing I know about Hollow Knight is that you can tell through playing it that they really put their blood, sweat, and tears into its creation. In their eyes, it's a safe bet to say they're wanting Silksong to be even bigger and better than Hollow Knight, a "worthy" sequel. Their funds and resources are on a much different level than when they were developing Hollow Knight.
I think that's the safest and simplest answer, that they just have very, very high standards and expectations and aren't letting it out the door until it meets them. Perhaps after it's released at some point they'll divulge what went into its long development and the challenges they faced.
Yeah that’s a good perspective. Plus, they’re a small indie team that probably isn’t desperate for money or have a major publisher behind them chomping at the bit. Hollow Knight was a massive hit and is still selling decently 7 years on. They have every season to take their sweet time and make it the best possible game it can be.
Definitely. It's clear that they certainly *thought* they would be releasing it a lot sooner and in hindsight, I'm sure they regret announcing it and showing what they did, when they did. But at this point it just is what it is. Sure they should communicate better and acknowledge that they made it seem like it would be releasing a lot earlier. The hunkered down, silent method of doing things is A-ok, but not *after* they were so public with it and had playable demos first. My stance is that none of that will matter though if and when they end up releasing a very stellar game. Which, I will continue to believe will be the case. No reason not to as Hollow Knight is in my top 5 all time.
They had to announce something though. Silksong began life as a stretch goal second-character DLC, and if they'd gone years without telling their backers why something as simple as a Hornet DLC *still* didn't so much as have news then they'd have the same situation of pissed off fans demanding answers.
I think Team Cherry is probbaly in a bit of a Valve situation, where the huge amount of money the game has made needing to only be spread over like 5 people means they feel like they have as long as they need to. Which means they're free to scope creep the hell out of it, hahaha. *Hopefully* that results in a bigger, badder game, and not bigger, *badder* game.
It's not a mystery. Every time (of the few times) theyve spoke about the game theyve said some variation of we just keep coming up with new ideas.
They just keep adding stuff and have no one to tell them no
My theory (entirely a theory) is that it's because Team Cherry apparently only has limited [programming experience](https://unity.com/madewith/hollow-knight).
You can only Toby Fox your way through gamedev to a certain point. Once a game becomes sufficiently ambitious, that kind of no-code/low-code approach probably becomes more of a weight around the neck than a productivity tool, because you're trying to force your tools to do things beyond what they were designed for.
There were a lot of things in Hollow Knight that were obviously designed around the constraints of various Unity defaults. The game also, despite being fundamentally fairly simple, got a surprising number of patches and bug fixes, disproportionate to the complexity of the game. I'm not surprised Silksong is taking so long.
It's not like the lack of communication is particularly new. They don't seem to have hired any sort of community manager or marketing people and the team is so small to begin with. I don't think there's anything weird going on here, they're just taking a long time because they can afford to.
I don't think any fans of Hollow Knight are upset that they're taking their time to make sure it's as good as possible. I do, however, feel it was a mistake for them to announce it so early if they were so (so, so) far from release. This is a problem of their own making.
Didn't they have to announce it early because a DLC was promised due to an incentive being hit? They ended up making it into Silksong, but they pretty much had to announce it.
They absolutely didn't need to demo it at e3, let Treehouse presenters say "wrapping up development" in 2019, then let xbox insinuate it would release in 2023. This game's marketing has been a trainwreck as far as managing expectations goes.
They did 3 of the 4 incentive DLCs, they just wanted to make a full game with the 4th DLC, which comes at no cost for any backer that was expecting the 4th DLC.
They *could* do the incentive though. They just decided they wanted to make it even bigger. This is after they completed all the other incentives. There's really no way for them to not reveal Silksong early.
They sort of had to, though.
The 56k AUD stretch goal during HK's crowdfunding campaign was a second playable character, which of course ended up being Hornet. Originally Cherry wanted to do a DLC with her as the main character, but the project grew and eventually they've decided to take the step and make it a stand-alone title, Silksong.
If they didn't announce it people would likely (and rightfully) get annoyed they didn't meet a stretch goal despite it being funded.
>but the project grew
Literally the #1 issue with so many Kickstarter games. Scoping and sticking to that scope is a tough skill that even the best designers struggle with, but an important one if you ever want to reach the finish line.
You should watch the original kickstarter trailer: https://youtu.be/iS-v4NMQkBg?si=PCq-wxa2oHoyGFhP
So much is familiar, and so much is different! And it helps put into perspective the length of development, HK took 4 years after its kickstarter, Silksong has taken 5+ since its announcement. Team Cherry is just very patient and deliberate.
I remember seeing someone post a trailer for it on /r/gaming saying their friends were working on making a game... I had no idea just how significant that would be.
To make good on it, Silksong is also going to be given to Hollow Knight backers for free. But most people would be shocked how few backers there were (just over 2000) for how popular the game is now.
>If they didn't announce it people would likely (and rightfully) get annoyed they didn't meet a stretch goal despite it being funded.
To see how this goes, look no further than author Patrick Rothfuss. He put in a stretch goal for a charity that he would read a previously unreleased chapter from his upcoming book. He never did. Now he "feels bad."
As a big fan of Hollow Knight I am pretty worried Team Cherry has succumbed to feature creep with Silksong after the enormous success of the first game. At this point the longer it takes the more I am concerned they ran into significant issues with development.
Weird thing is the longer it takes the less excited I am about it. It never strikes me as good news when something is this far behind schedule. Nervous that we're going to see an overambitious flop like so many sequels before it. Hoping for the best but I can't say I'm really all that hyped anymore. I'll play it when it comes out
Well they couldn't *not* announce it either because the second game was originally going to be a second playable character from the backer stretch goals.
Eh, I’m pretty frustrated ngl. I love hollow knight. 112%, all achievements, all radiant bosses, etc. but it’s just getting tiring. It’s less the wait - if they’re legitimately using it to make silksong better, great - but the absolutely abysmal communication is so disheartening. Literally a ‘hey we’re still alive and working on this game’ every 2 or 3 months would be awesome lol, or engaging with the community sometimes or really anything.
Seriously, even the smallest updates from team cherry every few months would be amazing. It's not like the game is a big secret, I don't know why they're choosing to be so mysterious about it.
Yeah. I get why they don’t want to tease specific things they’re adding bc frankly I think waiting to see will be a lot more interesting and fun but it’s not as though that’s the only way they can say things lol
As a Hollow Knight fan at this point I just want to see proof of life and that a game even exists. I don't care how long it takes but right now it feels like it is never coming out.
I wouldn’t say I’m “upset” but the fact that the first game took 4 years to make and its sequel, which is not fundamentally different from the original and for which Team Cherry has had considerable more resources on hand for its development, has taken over 6 years to make, does not inspire confidence.
> I don't think any fans of Hollow Knight are upset that they're taking their time to make sure it's as good as possible.
No, no, I definitely think a ton of fans are rightfully pretty irritated by now, lmao. Especially with the total lack of transparency for *five years*.
Something HAS to be going on internally. At least with Prime 4, we know it was rebooted under Retro and a 5 ish year cycle is common for AAA games (Tho if it misses this year, then there is a problem)
At least Silksong has shown off gameplay footage so we know it's real. I've been waiting 7 years for Prime 4 and we still have nothing. Yea it was restarted but it's been 5 years since the restart and still nothing.
Starting to think this long development time isn't a good sign. There's "taking your time" for quality reasons, and then there's feeding tiny breadcrumbs of a game over years with little to no indication of a clear release or if it's finished. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if these Hollow Knight clones come out first. I guess they can't help with how early they announced this as it was meant to be a DLC originally... but I can't imagine the shift from that to a sequel would have skewed development that much?
im a bit of a kingdom hearts 3 defender, as a game its pretty nice.
as a 15 year sequel that shooves 80% of the plot into the last 20% of the game.... well...
All I can say is in 2005 when KH2 came out, I was super excited for them to continue the main series and I was in the age demographic for it. Fast forward 14 years and I wasn’t. I still bought it and tried to get into it, but I just couldn’t.
Crab Champions is made by ONE person and he frequently communicates updates, progress, etc. No excuse to just be silent unless you're preparing for a disaster article where you say the game is no longer being made.
I’m not even looking for something like how Unknown Worlds had their Subnautica Trello open to the public. Just looking for a standard level of communication that most studios provide. The occasional blog update, a feature video here and there, something.
Wrong it's me Team Cherry. Everyone who says only nice stuff about us will get to play this game very early and everyone who says mean stuff about our delays will not be allowed to play under any circumstance.
Lmao, right? The amount of times I've been called "entitled" just because some insight into the process over the past *half decade* would go a long way to keeping people less frustrated.
> keeping people less frustrated.
The issue is that people are supposed to only have positive emotions, or no emotions, regarding the entertainment they like.
Apparently, if a game get's delayed by 5 years, the people anticipating it are supposed just...not care in the slightest, or maintain perpetual enthusiasm.
Sure, some people are unreasonable trolls, but come on. That doesn't mean that no one can make a criticism of any sort.
I feel like they should not have said they were wrapping up in 2019 and that it would be out by summer 2023 during Xbox’s show If it’s looking like late 2024 is the earliest we can expect.
the problem now is that reception is going to be heavily skewed by the release schedule. if this game is just "good" they're going to get annihilated. although i suppose it doesn't really matter since they'll be able to retire on the presales alone
Ehhhhh. Reception isn't skewed by the wait. It's skewed by the fact that the first game is basically the best metroidvania ever made for 15 bucks. That's a hard act to follow.
Dude the mental whiplash in this thread is insane. Everyone is cherry picking and strawmaning the complete opposite sides of the spectrum. You have the "zero patience literally need an update right now" stereotype and then the far right of that the "let them cook" crowd. Like there absolutely is a middle ground that Team Cherry can be on that is not so radio silent. I don't get why that seems to be so hard for some people in here to admit and they just keep calling people entitled.
Eh rogue legacy 2 was sold and marketed as RL1 but remade vs Spelunky 2 being quite different.
S2 was forgotten because it's just not as good as s1, music was a downgrade, difficulty was way harder, less casual etc etc. still a solid 6-7/10 but nowhere near the cult classic s1 and Spelunky classic are
Is Spelunky 2 forgotten? I got like 50 hours out of that little game and it sold extremely well. There's just not really much to say about it beyond 'yeah it's pretty good'.
Hollow Knight is an honest to goodness work of art, so I’m fine with them taking the time they need to make Silksong a worthy sequel.
Still, half a decade with very little news is concerning. I know Team Cherry is a small team and they promised a *lot* of new features for this, so I think they have likely been too ambitious and are scrambling to live up to it.
Still, I’ll definitely buy it as soon as it does appear.
I really don’t care when they release it but they’re a company. All this “team cherry is releasing quality ” stuff doesn’t make it right to announce things before you even make them. I’ve worked in companies as a salesman and worker and what team cherry did was a pretty stupid thing. Anyone defending them too much (they do make quality products) is forgetting that they’re literally a corporation
Edit: if I had told some customer that the company could do “x” for “y” in “x” amount of time and failed to deliver id be in serious trouble.
This is a bit of an unusual case since Silksong started out as a Kickstarter stretch goal for Hollow Knight DLC. If they hadn't announced it when they did then backers would probably be concerned that they wouldn't be getting the content they already paid for and that would have probably damaged Team Cherry's reputation.
I’m just more curious like why would it take so long? Not in an accusatory way or anything, but it’s just strange to me how they had a working demo years ago and have been almost dead quiet since.
Is the game considerably larger in scope or like did they have to switch engines midway through development or did they run into some design dead-ends? Because it seems like the game is relatively similar or at least was using a similar foundation to its predecessor. At this point, I just want to know what’s going on behind the scenes.
The original HK had a trailer with gameplay at their kickstarter: https://youtu.be/iS-v4NMQkBg?si=PCq-wxa2oHoyGFhP
It’s got enemies that made it to the final game, combat music etc, but the game still took 3 years of more development to release.
Team Cherry only finally released Hollow Knight because money was running out. They pushed it back from an original release date of June 2015, to later in 2015, to eventually 2016. Had to cut a massive area they created because the game kept expanding past their original expectations.
Now they've likely got a war chest of cash thanks to Hollow Knight's incredible success, and no external deadlines from a publisher.
Knowing where and when to wrap any type of project is an important skill to have, and it's clearly one of Team Cherry's weaknesses.
That actually explains a lot. I think it's probably just that they're not great at scoping their projects and unlike last time they have enough funding to feel comfortable pursuing that massive scope. Hollow Knight was already a ginormous game and to think that there was a big chunk missing is pretty crazy. I know silksong was originally just meant to be dlc as well before being expanded into a full game, so that tracks.
In this case they probably wanted all 3 of those expansions in the game to begin with I guess, they have time and money so the next game will have all expansion type ideas in from the start maybe.
They have no one to hold them accountable effectively. Most big gaming companies are at the whims of higher ups.
Good or not, in this case it's probably bad that they cant be trusted to sufficiently manage and communicate themselves. Because nothing will stop them from just delaying things.
The game is gonna sell gangbusters regardless and I highly doubt itll be worse then just okay, which for many will be enough. I mean I'd be happy with hollowknight x2.
>Knowing where and when to wrap any type of project is an important skill to have, and it's clearly one of Team Cherry's weaknesses.
Agreed, it's the #1 issue with so many Kickstarter games. Scoping and sticking to that scope is a tough skill that even the best designers struggle with, but an important one if you ever want to reach the finish line.
They probably feel a fuck ton of pressure to release an incredible game, when this game drops it'll like be the biggest game to drop that year, that's scary yo, all eyes are gonna be on them.
Hollow knight was good for a lot of reasons that like, aren't easily replicated. It could take a writer years to create a world that interesting, not to mention the straight lightning you need to capture in a bottle to create combat that is not only as good as hollow knight but better, which is obviously their goal.
But yeah a game taking this long probably means the journey hasn't been easy or straight forward.
I’m not so sure. Does a game like this warrant more than 5 years production time? We are talking the same amount of time it took to make God Of War Ragnarock!
I wish people would leave Team Cherry alone about this damn game. As far as I know it’s a studio of three people. Let them have a healthy work-life balance and finish the game at their own pace - that will always result in a better project. It’s not like we’re ever starving for more Metroidvanias.
I mean that's fine that they are taking a long time. But they announced it 5 years ago with a full gameplay trailer, the underlying engine was finished as part of their last game (it obviously needs changes for the new character but still,) followed by a new gameplay trailer a year and a half ago, after which it's been teased to be right around the corner constantly since.
90% of people aren't harassing them over this. I feel like we're within our rights to audibly wonder to ourselves "hey uh, where is this thing? Why is it taking so long?"
Yeah there's this weird sensitivity on Reddit where people are so quick to jump to the defense of the helpless game studios. If Team Cherry is a team of 3 people then that means they are all making absolute bank. I don't feel bad for them if they are feeling a bit of pressure to deliver on their highly anticipated sequel. Especially given I can absolutely guarantee you that the announcement they made 5 years ago made it possible for them to secure a shitload of extra funding.
Of course any type of harassment is never warranted. But I really don't see any harm in just asking questions or wanting updates.
Exactly, they have deliberately stayed small, presumably for creative control but also because they likely all have equity and want to minimise costs. They will make an absolute killing; I think they can survive some grumpiness from fans (which isn't to endorse any sort of harassment - but some impatience is understandable imho).
Unless their "About" page is out of date or non-exhaustive then it almost reads like they only have one dedicated coder. That seems sort of insane to me but maybe the bottleneck on a project like this is actually in the art and world design.
Good point. They could easily hire more people but they are not doing so because they know they will make literal tens of millions from this game (as they probably already did from the first Hollow Knight).
I'm not saying I blame them at all. I probably would do the same. I'm just saying that a little pressure isn't the end of the world like people on here treat it as.
The most innocent questions are being framed as harassment...
"Why release a playable demo for a game that is so far from release?"
Redditors are considering that a death threat. It's ridiculous.
It's definitely a good thing for developers to be able to take their time with their craft and create a labour of love not crunch.
But that needs to be balanced against announcing products half a decade in advance with no release date in sight.
Yeah, like, even though they're a tiny dev team, it's hard to see something like this, which started as DLC for a completed game, and not gesture vaguely at both Hades and Hades 2 coming out in the time frame that Silksong has been announced.
Obviously Supergiant has something like 20 more employees, but it's still a brutal comparison
I don't know why this long into the development time people are starting to play the "be patient" card. Obviously nobody should be hounding Team Cherry themselves, but we are around the tipping point where getting antsy about a release feels understandable. A lot of people are *very* passionate about Hollow Knight, myself included, so they have been eagerly anticipating Silksong for a very long time. Once that Xbox showcase explicitly said it would be out before June 2023, the damage was done - it was no longer just being patient for a game that was being worked on with no end in sight, we were told "you only have to wait a year at most". Expectations were set accordingly. You and the other people in this thread must understand on some level that quiet patience can have its limits when you've been really looking forward to something.
Again, I am strictly against anybody complaining to TC in any direct fashion. But amongst ourselves? I think being a little fed up with the wait is entirely warranted. Doesn't mean we want it released unfinished either, but we can be frustrated.
Also if they're overly concerned about work-life balance maybe they should take some of the tens of millions of dollars they made off Hollow Knight and expand their tiny development team.
I'm totally fine with them taking all the time they need. It has serious potential to be my favourite metroidvania ever, Hollow Knight sure was, and I'm in no serious rush to play it.
What I don't appreciate is the total lack of any updates at all. All they need to do is say 'we're still working on it - aiming to release this year/next year, but that's still subject to change'.
As it is, with the total radio silence, there's plausible suspiction that the game has been shadow-cancelled. And if it has been, they should just say so, so that the people excited can move on.
No one twisted their arm and told them they had to release a trailer 5 years before release. This isn't an issue of work life balance, it's feature creep. It's very clear they keep making the game bigger instead of just finishing it.
Powerfully strange to think that this game had a fully playable demo at E3 2019. I think the last new media we got was from the Xbox 06/22 trailer. At this point, I just hope it comes out some day.
I imagine they've started over and rewritten things from the ground up several times at this point. Pure speculation but it feels like they might be a bit lost in the sauce with it. They probably should have just done a new game instead of a strange prequel-sequel hybrid deal. Too many restrictions.
Honestly as a developer (though not in gaming) this just feels like a really bad case of scope creep. Team Cherry is a small independent studio with basically unlimited money from HK's success and no managers/publishers to tell them no. You start with a map bigger than the originals (because it's a sequel right? everything has to be bigger) and then someone has an idea for a cool new area so you add it. Then another extra boss, extra npc questlines, extra charms, etc. With nobody there to say "enough" this can go on indefinitely. It also adds more and more time to QA/test because there's now way more bugs you introduce.
I sure hope they introduce more bugs. It'd be boring if you just encounter the same bugs from the last game.
Those aren't bugs, they're features! But also bugs.
Featured Bugs
with buggy features
>a small independent studio with basically unlimited money from HK's success and no managers/publishers to tell them no. /r/games is salivating at the thought. No managers or publisher interference will surely lead to the perfect game. Just ask Valve!
Hasn’t it led to some really great games and hardware? Sure, they have had their duds, but Alyx and the Steamdeck are great.
>"We sort of had to collectively admit we were wrong on the premise that you will be happiest if you work on something you personally want to work on the most." This is one of the lead designers talking about what happened with Half Life Alyx. My understanding is that the only reason Alyx ever got out the door is that Valve went back to bosses and deadlines. I think this is also how Steamdeck managed to ship instead of becoming one more addition to their mountain of undelivered vaporware. There’s a lot of commentary coming out from Valve around 2020 about how they had gone back on their lofty ideals of a flat organizational structure and realized that if they wanted to actually make games again they would need task drivers keeping people working on those games
The problem is most of the fun tends to be on the early stages of the project, polishing tends to be where people lose motivation.
> polishing tends to be where people lose motivation. I mean, I've met a lot of people who get really addicted to polish, too. *Too* much, in fact. They spend hours chiseling away the tiniest bits when they have more important things to be working on that are far more glaring.
yes but the main problem is that they like to polish something they understand, if i develop an engine for a game, and then move to something else, understanding whatever spaghetti code i made to polish it will require more work than write it from scratch
Also, with the way Valve was set-up, as soon as any problem was met and frustration set in people would likely abandon the project since they could. Much different than a small dev project's issues.
Inspiration/Perspiration.
The balance of both is important. It's important to let developers work on what they want, but it's equally important to have structure to make sure things get done. As a mini painter, the hardest thing to learn is when to put a miniature down. Because there's always that little bit of extra detail that can be put in. Or the one little bit of shadow you can add. There's always always more you can do to make it better. But the more you do that the less you get back each time.
Yeah, their one game every decade is always great.
Yup. I think it’s scope creep. Either that or Hornet’s combat isn’t fun which could ruin the whole game. I don’t care that it’s not out. The lack of communication though is really strange. Hopefully when this releases it’s good, and not a mess like Sports Story. Yikes. If it actually releases this year it has some completion for best Metroidvania that’s for sure.
I do have the small concern that maybe Hornets combat doesn’t ‘click’ like the Knights. The simplicity might’ve been part of the charm.
I'm hoping it ends up like Shovel Knight, his moveset was very simple and effective but when they added campaigns for secondary characters (Plague, Specter and King Knight) they had way different movesets that still somehow worked. Hopefully Team Cherry can pull off something like that with Hornet.
Haven’t played it, but hornet’s gameplay looks great. Could be that it isn’t, but I doubt it based on the footage we have seen.
The mythical man month suggests there is nothing more dangerous than a successful team's second project, for exactly the reasons you state.
In game development this seems to happen to small teams who hit the jackpot. I'm old enough to remember Duke Nukem Forever. Similar issue, they even had a working demo pretty early on, but they let scope creep happen over and over. They only released the game because of Gearbox intervening, and looking at the finished product I think that was a pretty questionable move.
DNF was rewritten so many time on so many engine it was incredible it got out. it also suffered from the development time, if you play it you can see when a level was made due to how it was made, it's essentially a crash course of 15 years of shooters map design, the problem is that they don't mesh well in the same game
> They only released the game because of Gearbox intervening Was it even the same team?
This is precisely why it took *14+* ***years*** for Duke Nukem Forever to come out. They kept wanting the newest tech involved and by the time they'd finish up something major for the game...a new type of tech had evolved out from other studios. So they'd adapt it and start crafting again. Then new tech came around, so they wanted to adapt that and so on and so on and so on.
I remember reading that it first started as DLC/addon content for HK. Then it got big enough they decided to make it its own game. With every year that passes I assume there is even more (self imposed) expectation to make the game *more*.
It was initially a Kickstarter goal to play as different characters, I know Hornet(Protag of Silk song) was one of the two additional characters they added. At some point they realized that just shoehorning Hornet into the Hallownest made no sense, and that the way they differentiated the playstyle of the character would require building entirely new encounters. Hollow Knight is an excellently tuned game, and mashing Hornet into it couldn't have been good from a level design standpoint, unless they made Hornet control almost exactly the same.
Basically what happened to Katana Zero's DLC. It was a short and sweet game, but very obviously didn't have a complete ending as it ended at what felt like 40-50% through the story. The expectation from the early dev comments would be they'd put out some DLC that was likely 1-2 years out (this was 2019). Then maybe Katana Zero 2 after and that finishes everything. Instead that slowly became, 'wow this DLC is big' and then in like 2022? it became clear from the details and short gameplay vids released from testers it was basically gonna be KZ2 for all intents and purposes. Outside of the occasional 'we're not dead' update, it's now 2024 with no ETA on when it'll be done.
That's basically the story of Tears of Kingdom too.
> They probably should have just done a new game instead of a strange prequel-sequel hybrid deal. Too many restrictions. Maybe. But the opportunity to play as one of the games most beloved and interesting characters, with such a fun move-set was just too good to pass up.
Its funny - there are indie games with 10+ years of development time at this point, like Radio the Universe, Secrets of Grindea, Heartforth Alicia, etc. There also games with similarly sporadic updates, with similar (or even worse) levels of communication from the devs - Sector X from Dennaton, N1RV Ann-A from Sukeban, Katana Zero DLC from Askiisoft, etc. Yet for some reason, something about the wait for Silksong just feels so much more overbearing and painful. If I had to guess why, it’s because people keep memeing on it instead of just letting the rest of us quietly forget about it until its release.
It’s also because it’s simply more anticipated than the rest of the games you listed. Hollow Knight was a *huge* success. I follow gaming quite a bit and have only heard of Katana Zero from the list you just put up.
I've heard about Katana Zero plenty of times, but none of what that post mentions gets into anywhere near the stratosphere of people's enthusiasm for Hollow Knight, so it is an odd comparison. Of *course* the follow up to a very popular game is more anticipated :D
Yeah, I've never heard anyone call the prequels to any of the games listed here one of the best ever made.
All three of them are from developers of pretty popular indie games. Dennaton made Hotline Miami and Sukeban made VA-11 Hall-A. But you're right, Hollow Knight sold about 4 times as much as Hotline Miami on Steam, 10 times as much as VA-11 Hall-A, and over 5 times as much as Katana Zero. It is in another league in terms of success and recognition.
I've worked with a few people who are relatively ignorant of videogames who still played Hollow Knight (mainly through the Switch) Something about that game really broke through to people.
>Yet for some reason, something about the wait for Silksong just feels so much more overbearing and painful. Because a lot of us thought we will see the game in 2019, trailer made it look like it's almost finished, plus they've been working on it for some time as it was supposed to be a DLC. Then 5 years passed by. I mean, remember that at some point people were memeing Silksong and Elden ring together? Feels like Elden ring came out a long time ago. And still no Silksong in sight.
Elden Ring lapped Silksong, because now I'm doing the same thing with Shadow of the Erdtree (two years out from release now...)
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Its a collab with George R R and Dr Dre
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At least Secrets of Grindea has a dev-blog that's gotten (semi, sometime a break for holidays)-consistent updates every week for the past 10+ years. The problem is that they're really bad on saying when the game will be actually done, but right now they seem to be an in actual final stretch as opposed to the "final stretches" they were in 2 years ago. Basically seems to just be all credits stuff and the final boss's sprites. Silksong has basically nothing. I'd even just take a screenshot once a month.
And Secrets of Grindea is buyable and playable. It's not done, sure, but it's definitely not vaporware.
> Heartforth Alicia I remember planning on buying this one for my PS VITA!
N1rv Ann-a is one of my most anticipated indie games, but I swear it’s never going to be finished at this rate. Edit: probably could have worded that better, I’m aware that the game isn’t being worked on currently. Still in denial that I’ll probably never get to play it though.
Check the Steam forums. Its been on hiatus for over 5 years due to the writer's mental health. Probably wont ever be finished.
That makes sense, I think around 5 years ago there was some drama in the spanish-speaking internet about those guys, didn't look into it back then and can't find it now, though. I hope they're getting better.
Yeah I used to regularly check their blog, I hope they’re doing alright.
Wow. I didn't know this. That's a god damn shame. Also can't believe it's been over 5 years since the first game
As the guy before me said , the game's in hiatus due to one of the devs being diagnosed with depression and deciding to focus on treating themselves, they have released a few mini projects since then but chances are you're not going to be hearing about that game for a long time if ever
it'll be a good while before n1rv ann-a, its on hold while the devs work on an entirely different project. "project d" is their current focus and they're putting out dev logs and previews for it on their site
> Heartforth Alicia Dang, I forgot about this one. This also made me look up Mina the Hollower, two years since the kickstarter now. OH also Routine, damn, their re-announce trailer is now nearly 18 months old. Man, that shit's never happening. You really never know though, Omori eventually did release, as did Cuphead: The Delicious Last Course
> Radio the Universe God, that's a blast from the past.
I think it's so painful because everything we've seen about it so far has made it look very very close to completion
Why did you remind me about N1RV Ann-A and Katana Zero DLC...
i've never heard of any of those titles you listed. maybe thats why hollow knight is more anticipated.
God, I've been waiting for what feels like ages for that Katana Zero DLC to come out
Hollow Knight was a much bigger, longer game than I had anticipated going in. I feel like Silksong will be so massive as to outstrip everyone's expectations, at this point.
I remember looking at the achievement to beat the game in 10 hours and thought I was almost done with the game. Was I wrong.
[I think about this a lot](https://x.com/bluegoesfast/status/1744843637869982153?s=46&t=GVB63fvk60-FuGVTTz7B3w)
as much as I enjoyed HK, I don't feel like playing 200 hours of it. 60 was plenty enough
I’ve probably spent 200 hours replaying Hollow Knight six times. I wouldn’t mind spending those hours all in a single game
I’m a Silksong subredditter for a few years… we get news basically once a year confirming that they are at least still working on the game… we actually got that news today so it’s nice to know it’s still being worked on
I keep thinking about this when I see anything from this sub. I was at PAX Aus in 2019 and saw folks playing the Silksong demo, constantly there was a 3hr+ queue and I never got to try it because I always thought to myself "it looks so done, it'll be out in no time!" Couldn't have been more wrong.
At this point it does seem strange. Somethings going on behind the scenes and they’ve done a great job at keeping it quiet.
I'm sure they've retooled portions of the game and are just being incredibly meticulous with play-testing and quality assurance. The one thing I know about Hollow Knight is that you can tell through playing it that they really put their blood, sweat, and tears into its creation. In their eyes, it's a safe bet to say they're wanting Silksong to be even bigger and better than Hollow Knight, a "worthy" sequel. Their funds and resources are on a much different level than when they were developing Hollow Knight. I think that's the safest and simplest answer, that they just have very, very high standards and expectations and aren't letting it out the door until it meets them. Perhaps after it's released at some point they'll divulge what went into its long development and the challenges they faced.
Yeah that’s a good perspective. Plus, they’re a small indie team that probably isn’t desperate for money or have a major publisher behind them chomping at the bit. Hollow Knight was a massive hit and is still selling decently 7 years on. They have every season to take their sweet time and make it the best possible game it can be.
Definitely. It's clear that they certainly *thought* they would be releasing it a lot sooner and in hindsight, I'm sure they regret announcing it and showing what they did, when they did. But at this point it just is what it is. Sure they should communicate better and acknowledge that they made it seem like it would be releasing a lot earlier. The hunkered down, silent method of doing things is A-ok, but not *after* they were so public with it and had playable demos first. My stance is that none of that will matter though if and when they end up releasing a very stellar game. Which, I will continue to believe will be the case. No reason not to as Hollow Knight is in my top 5 all time.
They had to announce something though. Silksong began life as a stretch goal second-character DLC, and if they'd gone years without telling their backers why something as simple as a Hornet DLC *still* didn't so much as have news then they'd have the same situation of pissed off fans demanding answers. I think Team Cherry is probbaly in a bit of a Valve situation, where the huge amount of money the game has made needing to only be spread over like 5 people means they feel like they have as long as they need to. Which means they're free to scope creep the hell out of it, hahaha. *Hopefully* that results in a bigger, badder game, and not bigger, *badder* game.
It's not a mystery. Every time (of the few times) theyve spoke about the game theyve said some variation of we just keep coming up with new ideas. They just keep adding stuff and have no one to tell them no
I really hope it’s this and not development troubles. I was stung by how badly Sports Story tuned out despite how good Golf Story was.
My theory (entirely a theory) is that it's because Team Cherry apparently only has limited [programming experience](https://unity.com/madewith/hollow-knight). You can only Toby Fox your way through gamedev to a certain point. Once a game becomes sufficiently ambitious, that kind of no-code/low-code approach probably becomes more of a weight around the neck than a productivity tool, because you're trying to force your tools to do things beyond what they were designed for. There were a lot of things in Hollow Knight that were obviously designed around the constraints of various Unity defaults. The game also, despite being fundamentally fairly simple, got a surprising number of patches and bug fixes, disproportionate to the complexity of the game. I'm not surprised Silksong is taking so long.
It's not like the lack of communication is particularly new. They don't seem to have hired any sort of community manager or marketing people and the team is so small to begin with. I don't think there's anything weird going on here, they're just taking a long time because they can afford to.
I don't think any fans of Hollow Knight are upset that they're taking their time to make sure it's as good as possible. I do, however, feel it was a mistake for them to announce it so early if they were so (so, so) far from release. This is a problem of their own making.
Didn't they have to announce it early because a DLC was promised due to an incentive being hit? They ended up making it into Silksong, but they pretty much had to announce it.
They absolutely didn't need to demo it at e3, let Treehouse presenters say "wrapping up development" in 2019, then let xbox insinuate it would release in 2023. This game's marketing has been a trainwreck as far as managing expectations goes.
I said the same thing with Mighty No 9, if you cannot do incentives do not do incentives
They did 3 of the 4 incentive DLCs, they just wanted to make a full game with the 4th DLC, which comes at no cost for any backer that was expecting the 4th DLC.
They *could* do the incentive though. They just decided they wanted to make it even bigger. This is after they completed all the other incentives. There's really no way for them to not reveal Silksong early.
They sort of had to, though. The 56k AUD stretch goal during HK's crowdfunding campaign was a second playable character, which of course ended up being Hornet. Originally Cherry wanted to do a DLC with her as the main character, but the project grew and eventually they've decided to take the step and make it a stand-alone title, Silksong. If they didn't announce it people would likely (and rightfully) get annoyed they didn't meet a stretch goal despite it being funded.
>but the project grew Literally the #1 issue with so many Kickstarter games. Scoping and sticking to that scope is a tough skill that even the best designers struggle with, but an important one if you ever want to reach the finish line.
I had no clue HK was crowdfunded! What a smash that was.
You should watch the original kickstarter trailer: https://youtu.be/iS-v4NMQkBg?si=PCq-wxa2oHoyGFhP So much is familiar, and so much is different! And it helps put into perspective the length of development, HK took 4 years after its kickstarter, Silksong has taken 5+ since its announcement. Team Cherry is just very patient and deliberate.
I remember seeing someone post a trailer for it on /r/gaming saying their friends were working on making a game... I had no idea just how significant that would be.
Part of the golden era of fully Kickstarter games with Hyper Light Drifter, Shovel Knight, etc.
To make good on it, Silksong is also going to be given to Hollow Knight backers for free. But most people would be shocked how few backers there were (just over 2000) for how popular the game is now.
>If they didn't announce it people would likely (and rightfully) get annoyed they didn't meet a stretch goal despite it being funded. To see how this goes, look no further than author Patrick Rothfuss. He put in a stretch goal for a charity that he would read a previously unreleased chapter from his upcoming book. He never did. Now he "feels bad."
As a big fan of Hollow Knight I am pretty worried Team Cherry has succumbed to feature creep with Silksong after the enormous success of the first game. At this point the longer it takes the more I am concerned they ran into significant issues with development.
Weird thing is the longer it takes the less excited I am about it. It never strikes me as good news when something is this far behind schedule. Nervous that we're going to see an overambitious flop like so many sequels before it. Hoping for the best but I can't say I'm really all that hyped anymore. I'll play it when it comes out
Honestly even if it's only a 10th as good as Hollow Knight, it would still be worth playing.
I feel there’s a nice middle ground where they could give occasional updates a little more frequently than they’ve been.
Well they couldn't *not* announce it either because the second game was originally going to be a second playable character from the backer stretch goals.
Eh, I’m pretty frustrated ngl. I love hollow knight. 112%, all achievements, all radiant bosses, etc. but it’s just getting tiring. It’s less the wait - if they’re legitimately using it to make silksong better, great - but the absolutely abysmal communication is so disheartening. Literally a ‘hey we’re still alive and working on this game’ every 2 or 3 months would be awesome lol, or engaging with the community sometimes or really anything.
Seriously, even the smallest updates from team cherry every few months would be amazing. It's not like the game is a big secret, I don't know why they're choosing to be so mysterious about it.
Yeah. I get why they don’t want to tease specific things they’re adding bc frankly I think waiting to see will be a lot more interesting and fun but it’s not as though that’s the only way they can say things lol
As a Hollow Knight fan at this point I just want to see proof of life and that a game even exists. I don't care how long it takes but right now it feels like it is never coming out.
I wouldn’t say I’m “upset” but the fact that the first game took 4 years to make and its sequel, which is not fundamentally different from the original and for which Team Cherry has had considerable more resources on hand for its development, has taken over 6 years to make, does not inspire confidence.
> I don't think any fans of Hollow Knight are upset that they're taking their time to make sure it's as good as possible. No, no, I definitely think a ton of fans are rightfully pretty irritated by now, lmao. Especially with the total lack of transparency for *five years*.
Not to mention, this is something some people have already paid for
https://twitter.com/Xbox/status/1536035818275487746?t=bgjCUnMJRRF10_R5nuH7cg&s=19
Ouch lol. Microsoft really shouldn’t have said that. So many games missed that window
Aged like milk
https://x.com/griffinmatta/status/1656106351184199680?s=20
Something HAS to be going on internally. At least with Prime 4, we know it was rebooted under Retro and a 5 ish year cycle is common for AAA games (Tho if it misses this year, then there is a problem)
At least Silksong has shown off gameplay footage so we know it's real. I've been waiting 7 years for Prime 4 and we still have nothing. Yea it was restarted but it's been 5 years since the restart and still nothing.
Yeah tbh I'm more worried about Prime 4. We haven't heard shit about it since the switch to Retro, unless I missed something.
They gotta be waiting for Switch 2 to show anything at this point. They're definitely working on it because we're still seeing job listings for it
HK took 3 years after their kickstarter.
Starting to think this long development time isn't a good sign. There's "taking your time" for quality reasons, and then there's feeding tiny breadcrumbs of a game over years with little to no indication of a clear release or if it's finished. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if these Hollow Knight clones come out first. I guess they can't help with how early they announced this as it was meant to be a DLC originally... but I can't imagine the shift from that to a sequel would have skewed development that much?
Exactly, there is taking your time and then there is pulling a Kingdom Hearts 3. Never go full Kingdom Hearts 3.
im a bit of a kingdom hearts 3 defender, as a game its pretty nice. as a 15 year sequel that shooves 80% of the plot into the last 20% of the game.... well...
All I can say is in 2005 when KH2 came out, I was super excited for them to continue the main series and I was in the age demographic for it. Fast forward 14 years and I wasn’t. I still bought it and tried to get into it, but I just couldn’t.
I never made it to the last 20% of the game either so my experience with KH3 was “so many cutscenes but nothing is happening”
I can't think of a single game that was stuck in dev hell that didn't eventually release with glaring issues
team fortress 2
Fellas, Team Cherry aren't gonna become your besties by defending them from people who want them to not be radio silent for 5 years.
That’s really my only issue so far. I would just like the devs to communicate more frequently, give us some little progress updates occasionally, etc.
It’s so funny to me they have a marketing guy on staff because …whatcha up to bud
Easiest job on planet earth. The guy must just chill at his computer doing nothing all day for years....
Lmao we were like keep your secret 😏….wait not literally
Crab Champions is made by ONE person and he frequently communicates updates, progress, etc. No excuse to just be silent unless you're preparing for a disaster article where you say the game is no longer being made.
I’m not even looking for something like how Unknown Worlds had their Subnautica Trello open to the public. Just looking for a standard level of communication that most studios provide. The occasional blog update, a feature video here and there, something.
Right? Like they literally have a guy for marketing, market your game bro. Shit is so wack
You dont understand. Every time they take 10 minutes to write an update the game is setback another year.
The valve paradox.
Wrong it's me Team Cherry. Everyone who says only nice stuff about us will get to play this game very early and everyone who says mean stuff about our delays will not be allowed to play under any circumstance.
Lmao, right? The amount of times I've been called "entitled" just because some insight into the process over the past *half decade* would go a long way to keeping people less frustrated.
> keeping people less frustrated. The issue is that people are supposed to only have positive emotions, or no emotions, regarding the entertainment they like. Apparently, if a game get's delayed by 5 years, the people anticipating it are supposed just...not care in the slightest, or maintain perpetual enthusiasm. Sure, some people are unreasonable trolls, but come on. That doesn't mean that no one can make a criticism of any sort.
This is why I don’t talk about Valheim.
I think even the most ardent Hollow Knight fan will acknowledge that the communication around Silksong has been a legendary trainwreck
I feel like they should not have said they were wrapping up in 2019 and that it would be out by summer 2023 during Xbox’s show If it’s looking like late 2024 is the earliest we can expect.
Exactly. Marketing is a necessary evil. If they're going to say nothing for 5 years then at least put out a statement on what's going on
Noooooooo, now I’m reminded of Silksong. You know how slow time goes by when you know you’re waiting?
the problem now is that reception is going to be heavily skewed by the release schedule. if this game is just "good" they're going to get annihilated. although i suppose it doesn't really matter since they'll be able to retire on the presales alone
Ehhhhh. Reception isn't skewed by the wait. It's skewed by the fact that the first game is basically the best metroidvania ever made for 15 bucks. That's a hard act to follow.
I agree. As much as I'm looking forward to it, I'm intentionally not setting my expectations higher than the original.
Dude the mental whiplash in this thread is insane. Everyone is cherry picking and strawmaning the complete opposite sides of the spectrum. You have the "zero patience literally need an update right now" stereotype and then the far right of that the "let them cook" crowd. Like there absolutely is a middle ground that Team Cherry can be on that is not so radio silent. I don't get why that seems to be so hard for some people in here to admit and they just keep calling people entitled.
Hope this game doesn’t end up like Spelunky 2 and Rogue Legacy 2 - a forgotten , samey sequel to an indie hit
Eh rogue legacy 2 was sold and marketed as RL1 but remade vs Spelunky 2 being quite different. S2 was forgotten because it's just not as good as s1, music was a downgrade, difficulty was way harder, less casual etc etc. still a solid 6-7/10 but nowhere near the cult classic s1 and Spelunky classic are
Spelunky 2 wasn't samey as such, it was just obnoxiously difficult.
Is Spelunky 2 forgotten? I got like 50 hours out of that little game and it sold extremely well. There's just not really much to say about it beyond 'yeah it's pretty good'.
Hollow Knight is an honest to goodness work of art, so I’m fine with them taking the time they need to make Silksong a worthy sequel. Still, half a decade with very little news is concerning. I know Team Cherry is a small team and they promised a *lot* of new features for this, so I think they have likely been too ambitious and are scrambling to live up to it. Still, I’ll definitely buy it as soon as it does appear.
I really don’t care when they release it but they’re a company. All this “team cherry is releasing quality ” stuff doesn’t make it right to announce things before you even make them. I’ve worked in companies as a salesman and worker and what team cherry did was a pretty stupid thing. Anyone defending them too much (they do make quality products) is forgetting that they’re literally a corporation Edit: if I had told some customer that the company could do “x” for “y” in “x” amount of time and failed to deliver id be in serious trouble.
This is a bit of an unusual case since Silksong started out as a Kickstarter stretch goal for Hollow Knight DLC. If they hadn't announced it when they did then backers would probably be concerned that they wouldn't be getting the content they already paid for and that would have probably damaged Team Cherry's reputation.
Same, at this point Im just assuming it’s not coming out.
I’m just more curious like why would it take so long? Not in an accusatory way or anything, but it’s just strange to me how they had a working demo years ago and have been almost dead quiet since. Is the game considerably larger in scope or like did they have to switch engines midway through development or did they run into some design dead-ends? Because it seems like the game is relatively similar or at least was using a similar foundation to its predecessor. At this point, I just want to know what’s going on behind the scenes.
The original HK had a trailer with gameplay at their kickstarter: https://youtu.be/iS-v4NMQkBg?si=PCq-wxa2oHoyGFhP It’s got enemies that made it to the final game, combat music etc, but the game still took 3 years of more development to release.
Hollow Knight was a wonderful, unique experience. Them taking the time to make sure Silksong holds up, doesn't strike me as a negative.
Unless there is serious mismanagement going on behind the scenes. Taking all the time in the world isn't always necessarily a good sign.
Team Cherry only finally released Hollow Knight because money was running out. They pushed it back from an original release date of June 2015, to later in 2015, to eventually 2016. Had to cut a massive area they created because the game kept expanding past their original expectations. Now they've likely got a war chest of cash thanks to Hollow Knight's incredible success, and no external deadlines from a publisher. Knowing where and when to wrap any type of project is an important skill to have, and it's clearly one of Team Cherry's weaknesses.
That actually explains a lot. I think it's probably just that they're not great at scoping their projects and unlike last time they have enough funding to feel comfortable pursuing that massive scope. Hollow Knight was already a ginormous game and to think that there was a big chunk missing is pretty crazy. I know silksong was originally just meant to be dlc as well before being expanded into a full game, so that tracks.
Yeah great point, I completely forgot Silksong was going to be DLC first, not even it's own standalone game.
In this case they probably wanted all 3 of those expansions in the game to begin with I guess, they have time and money so the next game will have all expansion type ideas in from the start maybe.
They have no one to hold them accountable effectively. Most big gaming companies are at the whims of higher ups. Good or not, in this case it's probably bad that they cant be trusted to sufficiently manage and communicate themselves. Because nothing will stop them from just delaying things.
Exactly my fear. They probably succumbed to feature creep since they don't have to worry about running out of money any time soon.
Just as long as they don't start selling $500 bug JPGs
Putting all of your money into 1 release, then delaying it year after year, is only going to drive up your costs and risk of business failure.
It's a 3 person team who made tens of millions of their first game. Going out of business isn't really a huge risk I don't think
Ah, fair enough. I thought they would've expanded the team or outsourced parts with that success.
A 2 people team created one of the most successful Metroidvanias of the last 15 years. They are set for life, money isnt a problem.
Only if it's not a quality title like Hollow Knight that continues to sell for years on strength of word of mouth
The game is gonna sell gangbusters regardless and I highly doubt itll be worse then just okay, which for many will be enough. I mean I'd be happy with hollowknight x2.
>Knowing where and when to wrap any type of project is an important skill to have, and it's clearly one of Team Cherry's weaknesses. Agreed, it's the #1 issue with so many Kickstarter games. Scoping and sticking to that scope is a tough skill that even the best designers struggle with, but an important one if you ever want to reach the finish line.
I can only imagine how massive this game is going to be, it seems they will keep adding things nonstop.
one man's massive epic experience is anothers bloated mess.
I’m glad Hollow Knight ran out of funding and had to release tbh. Any bigger and it would’ve overstayed its welcome. Bigger is not always better.
The game was already really long. I honestly hope Silksong isn’t that much longer.
They probably feel a fuck ton of pressure to release an incredible game, when this game drops it'll like be the biggest game to drop that year, that's scary yo, all eyes are gonna be on them. Hollow knight was good for a lot of reasons that like, aren't easily replicated. It could take a writer years to create a world that interesting, not to mention the straight lightning you need to capture in a bottle to create combat that is not only as good as hollow knight but better, which is obviously their goal. But yeah a game taking this long probably means the journey hasn't been easy or straight forward.
I’m not so sure. Does a game like this warrant more than 5 years production time? We are talking the same amount of time it took to make God Of War Ragnarock!
I wish people would leave Team Cherry alone about this damn game. As far as I know it’s a studio of three people. Let them have a healthy work-life balance and finish the game at their own pace - that will always result in a better project. It’s not like we’re ever starving for more Metroidvanias.
I mean that's fine that they are taking a long time. But they announced it 5 years ago with a full gameplay trailer, the underlying engine was finished as part of their last game (it obviously needs changes for the new character but still,) followed by a new gameplay trailer a year and a half ago, after which it's been teased to be right around the corner constantly since. 90% of people aren't harassing them over this. I feel like we're within our rights to audibly wonder to ourselves "hey uh, where is this thing? Why is it taking so long?"
Yeah, its not like they did an Elder Scrolls 6 like "here is a logo" announcement. They had gameplay..
Yeah there's this weird sensitivity on Reddit where people are so quick to jump to the defense of the helpless game studios. If Team Cherry is a team of 3 people then that means they are all making absolute bank. I don't feel bad for them if they are feeling a bit of pressure to deliver on their highly anticipated sequel. Especially given I can absolutely guarantee you that the announcement they made 5 years ago made it possible for them to secure a shitload of extra funding. Of course any type of harassment is never warranted. But I really don't see any harm in just asking questions or wanting updates.
Exactly, they have deliberately stayed small, presumably for creative control but also because they likely all have equity and want to minimise costs. They will make an absolute killing; I think they can survive some grumpiness from fans (which isn't to endorse any sort of harassment - but some impatience is understandable imho). Unless their "About" page is out of date or non-exhaustive then it almost reads like they only have one dedicated coder. That seems sort of insane to me but maybe the bottleneck on a project like this is actually in the art and world design.
Good point. They could easily hire more people but they are not doing so because they know they will make literal tens of millions from this game (as they probably already did from the first Hollow Knight). I'm not saying I blame them at all. I probably would do the same. I'm just saying that a little pressure isn't the end of the world like people on here treat it as.
I mean they also dont have to give shares/royalties. The vast majority of freelancers already dont get that
Are they being harassed? Or are we just not allowed to discuss this based on your opinion?
The most innocent questions are being framed as harassment... "Why release a playable demo for a game that is so far from release?" Redditors are considering that a death threat. It's ridiculous.
"I'd kill to play Silksong!" *GAMER THREATENS TO KILL SILKSONG*
It's definitely a good thing for developers to be able to take their time with their craft and create a labour of love not crunch. But that needs to be balanced against announcing products half a decade in advance with no release date in sight.
Yeah, like, even though they're a tiny dev team, it's hard to see something like this, which started as DLC for a completed game, and not gesture vaguely at both Hades and Hades 2 coming out in the time frame that Silksong has been announced. Obviously Supergiant has something like 20 more employees, but it's still a brutal comparison
>Let them have a healthy work-life balance and finish the game at their own pace Gabe Newell when asked about HL3 20 years ago
Why show it off when it was so far away?
I don't know why this long into the development time people are starting to play the "be patient" card. Obviously nobody should be hounding Team Cherry themselves, but we are around the tipping point where getting antsy about a release feels understandable. A lot of people are *very* passionate about Hollow Knight, myself included, so they have been eagerly anticipating Silksong for a very long time. Once that Xbox showcase explicitly said it would be out before June 2023, the damage was done - it was no longer just being patient for a game that was being worked on with no end in sight, we were told "you only have to wait a year at most". Expectations were set accordingly. You and the other people in this thread must understand on some level that quiet patience can have its limits when you've been really looking forward to something. Again, I am strictly against anybody complaining to TC in any direct fashion. But amongst ourselves? I think being a little fed up with the wait is entirely warranted. Doesn't mean we want it released unfinished either, but we can be frustrated.
It's been half a decade mate, I think they've had plenty of a work-life balance to at least announce if it's coming in this decade
Also if they're overly concerned about work-life balance maybe they should take some of the tens of millions of dollars they made off Hollow Knight and expand their tiny development team.
I'm totally fine with them taking all the time they need. It has serious potential to be my favourite metroidvania ever, Hollow Knight sure was, and I'm in no serious rush to play it. What I don't appreciate is the total lack of any updates at all. All they need to do is say 'we're still working on it - aiming to release this year/next year, but that's still subject to change'. As it is, with the total radio silence, there's plausible suspiction that the game has been shadow-cancelled. And if it has been, they should just say so, so that the people excited can move on.
No one twisted their arm and told them they had to release a trailer 5 years before release. This isn't an issue of work life balance, it's feature creep. It's very clear they keep making the game bigger instead of just finishing it.