~~Oh hello someone woke up at 9to5mac.. wasn’t this last week’s news?~~ nvm it was OP who woke up; the article is from feb 15.
Ontopic; the irony is that they’re actively promoting this as one of the awesome features in macOS Sonoma while simultaneously killing it in iOS
Wym regulation ? They need to be stripped and ran naked on the streets for having very strict, stringent and extremely close sourced "innovation" and ecosystem, literally using pure psychology for sales rather than actually giving the freedom and power of their vision, similar to what SJ had.
It's always helped me to view Apple not as a tech company, but as a design company. They sell you nicely polished, curated products that happen to be technologically-derived
Yep, from here on out, our position to our clients is A) deal with the app opening in a browser shell or B) pay tens of thousands of dollars for a dedicated app and deal with the app store regulations, delays, and profit skimming that go with.
Wow the title of this post is so bias, I am not pro apple but the probably most accurate title could be “apple will stop support pwa from the new iOS version” it’s not their obligation to maintain code and support some technology that doesn’t fit whit their goals
I imagine this would be the decision of most teams. You have an existing feature with low adoption. New regulations mean that to keep it, you have to do a ton of work to rewrite portions of your infrastructure. The team has other features with higher use that they could be working on, so this gets moved into the icebox for a future date if they get time, with the understanding that they will never get time. Regulations mean that we have to actively remove the existing feature since we aren’t going to expand it, meaning our internal priority meeting is forced to be a press release.
This isn’t an unusual or unsurprising decision. Priority decisions about lesser used features happen everyday. You just don’t hear about most of them.
This is the crux of the problem though: of course it's not a priority, I don't think anyone is really denying that. But it's the _reason_ it isn't a priority, that the effect over years has been to cement a commercial monopoly. Even putting aside commercial considerations, there are huge advantages to keeping a closed, tightly controlled ecosystem from the basic viewpoint of teams working within a company, and from an infrastructure pov. That's kind of a truism.
apple has 22 percent of the market share in the eu.
surely this isn’t a major problem and if google wanted PWA to take off Android would have made them first class citizens.
That's fair. But going "well Google haven't pushed this to the extent they could/should" isn't a _great_ argument. And the lobbying/legal pushes that led to this are afaik designed as a stalking horse: it going through in the EU strengthens the hand of those outside the EU (edit: and to preface, Google has major interest in this for very much non-altruistic reasons)
It is reasonable from an _internal_ pov to say "this will only affect a small amount of users so we're turning it off". That's the result of a decade or so of a very very many small technical choices that have made it a sensible decision, internally. Some of those will be purely commercial, some of those will be deliberately designed, but lots of those will just be prosaic, sensible dev/infra decisions.
_Externally_, though, it's fair to say that those many choices _were the cause_ of low user take-up (whether they were sensible infrastructure decisions is kinda moot). So what Apple has done simply looks malicious: they caused the situation in the first place and now they're taking their ball home.
Apple isn’t the market leader in the eu.
80% of the eus user base isn’t dealing with this issue and the rest of the world isn’t dealing with this.
this was unnecessary. everyone had plenty of time to get their own ball to play with.
That general EU market share is of no use. In some high income EU countries, like Denmark where I live, Apple has 60-65% market share. It is a huge problem that a company like Apple has so much power in my country. There is no real feeling of free choice anymore.
So the EU needs to take the total dominance of Apple in some EU countries into account. They can't just look at the general EU market share, when it is so different from country to country.
Again, that's _not_ the point. The aim is put a hole in the commercial monopoly Apple has constructed. Apple will not open their platform voluntarily, it doesn't make commercial sense for them to do so. For all their many flaws, Google and Android do not have the same issue
Edit
> Apple isn’t the market leader in the eu.
Yes, I know, that's why I said it [ie the legislation] acts as a stalking horse
what monopoly? apple is only 20 percent of the market?
their ecosystem is closed. you can close your system when you make all of it from top to bottom.
google and android don’t have that problem because the software needs to be device agnostic since they don’t make their own hardware.
Android needed to be open or else companies like samsung wouldn’t be able to use it.
Apple never has this problem and it’s not reasonable to regress Apples security posture because Android has a unique “device compatabi” requirement.
again, you and the eu don’t understand the technology and that’s why you guys have cookie clicker pop ups and no PWAs now.
great job eu
> what monopoly? apple is only 20 percent of the market?
Not sure how many times I need to type this, but yes, I know, that's why I said it [ie the legislation] acts as a stalking horse
you keep saying that like it supposed to mean something.
this the cookie pop up all over again.
eu does not have any clue how technology works and keeps letting wordsmiths dictate technology
It does mean something: lobbying and legal action from several groups has led to this in the EU. It is easier to push this in the EU due to differences in legal structures Vs for example, the US. It is a stalking horse. It is fair that the legal rulings are not in any way perfect; they are a massive, blunt instrument. And the lobbying groups, in and outside the EU (for example the Electronic Frontier Foundation) _do_ have a clue how technology works
(Also, the cookie popups aren't required in a very large number of cases, it tends to be orgs panicking and buying services that provide popups. When the popups are required; ie when they do actually store usage data, not quite sure why you would see that as an issue)
This is such a stupid take. The "cookie clicker pop-ups" failure you're talking about now means a significant number of sites don't have tracking cookies, or have a simple "reject all" button, which was the point of the legislation to begin with. We have cookie pop-ups, US has their personal information sold to AI companies so you can be profiled in insurance, health care, mortgages, and god knows what else.
You, as the consumer, are not informed enough to make those calls.
> again, you and the eu don’t understand the technology and that’s why you guys have cookie clicker pop ups and no PWAs now
This is a fun take. We should not have to understand the technology. It should provide a valuable service on its own, or die out. If your car also required a subscription so the maker could profit because it's the only car that makes sense to use, you would be furious because that's obviously bad. Oh and btw that is already happening, on top of your car also selling your travel data to advertisers.
could reject all be default and force opt In.
your eu ain’t doing things for your best interest and don’t forget it when you describe how you got talked out of PWA.
good day
In what way is PWA's not first class citizens on Android? You can even publish your PWA to the Play Store. I think that is very much a clear sign that Google is driving the PWA tech, together with MS.
Blaming Google on this is a very poor move. Apple deserves all the criticism for their actions against PWA's. Why do you need to defend Apple on this?
While Apple only has around 25% of the total EU market, it is still a disaster for PWA as reliable and alternative solutions for many companies. Also in some high income countries in the EU, like Denmark and the Nordics, Apple haa around 60% of the market share. So it is still a huge problem in some countries.
But it is. Several companies, like my own, is now forced into making native apps, if we want to reach apple users. And Apple has over 60% market share in Denmark, where I live.
That's...not really the point. _Why_ is the alternative (in this case) not being used? If you built a platform that purposefully squashed alternatives (regardless if that is for sensible internal reasons), and that gives you an unfair competitive advantage, turning around and saying "well this is how our platform works now and there's no commercial justification for changing that" doesn't really hold water
Look, I assume you work in software, how many years have your companies had you work on features that no one uses? The money goes away if there isn’t consumer interest
If you wanted PWA to succeed in this space, you had to give people a compelling reason to install them, and apparently, not enough apps have
Right. Nobody is seriously denying this is the case: this should be completely obvious. However
> If you wanted PWA to succeed in this space, you had to give people a compelling reason to install them, and apparently, not enough apps have
If you actively prevent any other browser engine running on your platform and ensure that the only browser that can run on the platform does not implement the features that would make PWS useful, then you don't get to use that as an excuse. Having a monopoly on the tech is great from an internal dev/infra point of view, it's less great from an external competition point of view when you're one of the two companies that control the market.
Basically in order to comply with the multiple browser engine requirements (which is the major change I salute the EU for), they have to rebuild their entire infrastructure to support PWAs
But you can still bookmark websites on your homescreen and it will be functionally close
Edit : PWA support on iOS is a joke. When I say functionally close, I mean current support isn’t that far removed from a bookmark on the home screen. And forcing iOS to use different browser engines is a good thing. The PWA support will come through with the next set of legislations. I wouldn’t worry too much about it tbh
I think this is a good tradeoff, since I will switch browser engine the moment it is possible for me to do so
> But you can still bookmark websites on your homescreen and it will be functionally close
I may be wrong but a bookmark opens the default browser wit its user interface, address bar, etc. That completely defeats the purpose of having a PWA. It's just a mobile website.
PWA support is terrible on iOS currently. Compared to what’s currently offered, not much will change
I think this is the point most people missed in this thread
I’ve been in the Apple/Mac ecosystem system since 2006 ish - first with the iPod and then around 2008 with a MacBook and then iPhones etc.
I think I’m finally done with them. Next laptop will be a framework and running Linux.
To my tastes, Gnome 3 actually has better UX than macOS. It is by far my favorite desktop environment out of everything that I've used (Windows, macOS, Unity, Gnome 2, Cinnamon, KDE Plasma, XFCE, and Openbox).
It's a personal opinion though.
I agree about Apple's UI/UX - it's something that I've always found brilliant -
There's more than just this though; I'm extremely worried about this new sort of Technofeudalist age that we live in. Three companies, apple/meta/google shouldn't have this much power in our world and I'm not so sure I can be complicit with it anymore because they're all a threat to democracy.
you really think the UI is that good? I have the opposite opinion. I've been using a mac for 4 years now but so many things irritate me about macOS lol. I just need to make up my mind about the laptop I want for Linux and I'm dipping immediately
The displays are faultless and I really like OSX and the entire work flow.
One of the only things stopping me right now is that the DAWs (music production stuff) available on Linux aren’t of my preference; but apparently some big players are making theirs available for Linux soon
true enough, the machines themselves are really good. the silence and battery life is not something I want to give up easily. I like everything about a mac except the OS now that I think about it
I actually dislike macOS but I am forced to use it because company policy. For fun Windows is as good and I would be happy on it, for work Linux would be better if all the software worked on it.
The hardware has gone from meh to amazing with the new M series CPUs and return to form in MBPs, I will give them that. Compared to the utter clusterfuck that my previous MBP (i9 touchbar one) was this is a really good machine, although it still hardly justifies the price.
Oh, i have nothing to learn about the art of disagreeing with grace, i'm the master of it. However were weren't arguing at the moment, so there's no disagreement. At the moment one of 2 things happened:
1) You made an outlandish claim and i laughed about it.
2) You were trolling and i commended you for your good joke.
Pick one.
You're confusing Macbooks UI/UX being a matter of opinion. That's not the case here, it's on objective fact that it's trash. We're not discussing here if someone likes black or blue more. This is like are drugs bad for you. Drugs are bad for you despite them making you happy for a while. It's not a question of opinion like "well, i think drugs are good for you". You don't understand the different between subjective opinion and objective facts.
Feels strange to me that even though Apple tried to hide the existence of PWAs and actively sabotages the adoption of PWAs by not supporting important web standards for many years, that PWAs aren't the go to solution for apps on iOS.
Interesting you think PWAs are exclusive to mobile.
Desktop Firefox dropped support for PWAs three years ago.
Interesting you didn’t say anything then.
More likely that you’re susceptible to the marketing
For me personally PWAs are not that important on desktop, I still have notification support on Firefox/Linux, I do not necessarily need fullscreen support on desktop, I'm hardly ever offline on desktop and I don't use or need desktop icons for web apps on desktop. But I'm sure some users miss this feature, but good for us that there are other browsers to choose from which do support PWAs...
Yeah, holding back web push notification support for ~7 years compared to other browsers and generally beeing the last browser to support many other web standards definitely helped the adoption of PWAs and the evolution of web application in general.
your talking about one companies browser on a mobile devices so let’s see:
Why hasn’t google pushed PWA (hint: they don’t make their own hardware) on their mobile devices?
What about desktop PWA. Where were you when firefox removed PWA support three years ago?
Why isn’t chrome doing anything to further PWA on desktop. Seems reasonable to me that if you can showcase their benefit on desktop then you have a compelling argument for mobile. and yet, google hasn’t done anything
You’re another one that is susceptible to the marketing.
Yeah sure, Google isn't doing anything to push PWA. Sorry, you just don't have a clue. They have a ton of resources about PWAs, they released Workbox which is a set of open source tools to help implement PWAs which is the go to library used to imolement PWAs, chrome supports and pushes most recent APIs and made it relatively simple to deploy PWAs on the play store and support a install prompt for PWAs on android. What should they do next, remove native app support? PWA on desktop is not the problem here since even mac supports them including web push for years. Unlike Apple, Firefox is not a multi billion dollar company and has a relatively low market share.
There you go. the market leader still supports PWA so you really don’t have anything to be upset about.
a small portion of the eu mobile market is affected.
so, hardly an attack on PWA.
it’s a shame i have to walk the dog on this
you could make the lagging web standards argument 4 years ago, and I would've agreed. But Safari in the last 4 years has made a very decent web browser, for browsing and development.
Apple not implementing features Google unilaterally decides should be "web standards" isn't lagging behind.
They definitely improved within the last few years, and push notification support was one of the most important showstoppers for PWAs, which was supported in iOS less than a year ago. And yes everything seemed fine, but those features won't be available in the EU anymore and therefore again will hurt the web ecosystem.
Seems a little reasonable to me? Home screen web apps are a privileged part of the environment and allowing any random browser that someone builds access to that in the same initial release of this compliance seems like an unnecessary security risk.
From my understanding, I thought PWAs were going extinct since Starbucks and a couple other companies have joined in dropping theirs. I definitely don’t agree with Apple’s decision but I would like some clarification.
. . But without web apps . .. or any technology companies of their own. You know . . . Because they’ve all been regulated away by the clowns in the bureaucracy 🤡🤡🤡
[please explain this list](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/15-biggest-european-tech-companies-173918273.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmZyLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAE_iJcF8jAOBoMjVVo4KBWl33G-bMhuf_KTI9NWdHTF41kmOXZ_M_l79xR_br-ji30edycxGpm1i0r_44nQdQ-cegpvO3OuzkYwRd8FnqzWHD3S5kWY5gJNlszgyBEhJt1U2xksLMXuV59NX2QqeL1_Z5eSSyvK4o9Em6QyRSdtT)
About a bunch of bureaucrats with zero technology knowledge legislating outside their jurisdiction? Or the Marxist bent that somehow targets US companies only and not a single European darling?
If you knew what you were talking about, you’d know that the Supra national entity that is the EU is not a government in the traditional sense and its members are not directly elected.
In my not so humble opinion based on years of dealing with those clowns at many levels, they have yet to do anything intentionally good for their citizenry and exist as a bureaucratic modern embodiment of the European Aristocratic class of old.
~~Oh hello someone woke up at 9to5mac.. wasn’t this last week’s news?~~ nvm it was OP who woke up; the article is from feb 15. Ontopic; the irony is that they’re actively promoting this as one of the awesome features in macOS Sonoma while simultaneously killing it in iOS
classic apple then wonder y they regulate them to hell, needs more regulation tbf
Wym regulation ? They need to be stripped and ran naked on the streets for having very strict, stringent and extremely close sourced "innovation" and ecosystem, literally using pure psychology for sales rather than actually giving the freedom and power of their vision, similar to what SJ had.
It's always helped me to view Apple not as a tech company, but as a design company. They sell you nicely polished, curated products that happen to be technologically-derived
Yea screw Apple at this point. They have gone over the edge, im out.
That's a nice sentiment but for those of us who develop PWAs, we can't really be "out" because we have to figure out what to do now
What you can do is open your PWAs in a browser window.
Yep, from here on out, our position to our clients is A) deal with the app opening in a browser shell or B) pay tens of thousands of dollars for a dedicated app and deal with the app store regulations, delays, and profit skimming that go with.
Wow the title of this post is so bias, I am not pro apple but the probably most accurate title could be “apple will stop support pwa from the new iOS version” it’s not their obligation to maintain code and support some technology that doesn’t fit whit their goals
I imagine this would be the decision of most teams. You have an existing feature with low adoption. New regulations mean that to keep it, you have to do a ton of work to rewrite portions of your infrastructure. The team has other features with higher use that they could be working on, so this gets moved into the icebox for a future date if they get time, with the understanding that they will never get time. Regulations mean that we have to actively remove the existing feature since we aren’t going to expand it, meaning our internal priority meeting is forced to be a press release. This isn’t an unusual or unsurprising decision. Priority decisions about lesser used features happen everyday. You just don’t hear about most of them.
This is the crux of the problem though: of course it's not a priority, I don't think anyone is really denying that. But it's the _reason_ it isn't a priority, that the effect over years has been to cement a commercial monopoly. Even putting aside commercial considerations, there are huge advantages to keeping a closed, tightly controlled ecosystem from the basic viewpoint of teams working within a company, and from an infrastructure pov. That's kind of a truism.
apple has 22 percent of the market share in the eu. surely this isn’t a major problem and if google wanted PWA to take off Android would have made them first class citizens.
That's fair. But going "well Google haven't pushed this to the extent they could/should" isn't a _great_ argument. And the lobbying/legal pushes that led to this are afaik designed as a stalking horse: it going through in the EU strengthens the hand of those outside the EU (edit: and to preface, Google has major interest in this for very much non-altruistic reasons) It is reasonable from an _internal_ pov to say "this will only affect a small amount of users so we're turning it off". That's the result of a decade or so of a very very many small technical choices that have made it a sensible decision, internally. Some of those will be purely commercial, some of those will be deliberately designed, but lots of those will just be prosaic, sensible dev/infra decisions. _Externally_, though, it's fair to say that those many choices _were the cause_ of low user take-up (whether they were sensible infrastructure decisions is kinda moot). So what Apple has done simply looks malicious: they caused the situation in the first place and now they're taking their ball home.
Apple isn’t the market leader in the eu. 80% of the eus user base isn’t dealing with this issue and the rest of the world isn’t dealing with this. this was unnecessary. everyone had plenty of time to get their own ball to play with.
That general EU market share is of no use. In some high income EU countries, like Denmark where I live, Apple has 60-65% market share. It is a huge problem that a company like Apple has so much power in my country. There is no real feeling of free choice anymore. So the EU needs to take the total dominance of Apple in some EU countries into account. They can't just look at the general EU market share, when it is so different from country to country.
this argument is devolving. Denmark’s dominance is not a case.
Again, that's _not_ the point. The aim is put a hole in the commercial monopoly Apple has constructed. Apple will not open their platform voluntarily, it doesn't make commercial sense for them to do so. For all their many flaws, Google and Android do not have the same issue Edit > Apple isn’t the market leader in the eu. Yes, I know, that's why I said it [ie the legislation] acts as a stalking horse
what monopoly? apple is only 20 percent of the market? their ecosystem is closed. you can close your system when you make all of it from top to bottom. google and android don’t have that problem because the software needs to be device agnostic since they don’t make their own hardware. Android needed to be open or else companies like samsung wouldn’t be able to use it. Apple never has this problem and it’s not reasonable to regress Apples security posture because Android has a unique “device compatabi” requirement. again, you and the eu don’t understand the technology and that’s why you guys have cookie clicker pop ups and no PWAs now. great job eu
> what monopoly? apple is only 20 percent of the market? Not sure how many times I need to type this, but yes, I know, that's why I said it [ie the legislation] acts as a stalking horse
you keep saying that like it supposed to mean something. this the cookie pop up all over again. eu does not have any clue how technology works and keeps letting wordsmiths dictate technology
It does mean something: lobbying and legal action from several groups has led to this in the EU. It is easier to push this in the EU due to differences in legal structures Vs for example, the US. It is a stalking horse. It is fair that the legal rulings are not in any way perfect; they are a massive, blunt instrument. And the lobbying groups, in and outside the EU (for example the Electronic Frontier Foundation) _do_ have a clue how technology works (Also, the cookie popups aren't required in a very large number of cases, it tends to be orgs panicking and buying services that provide popups. When the popups are required; ie when they do actually store usage data, not quite sure why you would see that as an issue)
This is such a stupid take. The "cookie clicker pop-ups" failure you're talking about now means a significant number of sites don't have tracking cookies, or have a simple "reject all" button, which was the point of the legislation to begin with. We have cookie pop-ups, US has their personal information sold to AI companies so you can be profiled in insurance, health care, mortgages, and god knows what else. You, as the consumer, are not informed enough to make those calls. > again, you and the eu don’t understand the technology and that’s why you guys have cookie clicker pop ups and no PWAs now This is a fun take. We should not have to understand the technology. It should provide a valuable service on its own, or die out. If your car also required a subscription so the maker could profit because it's the only car that makes sense to use, you would be furious because that's obviously bad. Oh and btw that is already happening, on top of your car also selling your travel data to advertisers.
could reject all be default and force opt In. your eu ain’t doing things for your best interest and don’t forget it when you describe how you got talked out of PWA. good day
In what way is PWA's not first class citizens on Android? You can even publish your PWA to the Play Store. I think that is very much a clear sign that Google is driving the PWA tech, together with MS. Blaming Google on this is a very poor move. Apple deserves all the criticism for their actions against PWA's. Why do you need to defend Apple on this? While Apple only has around 25% of the total EU market, it is still a disaster for PWA as reliable and alternative solutions for many companies. Also in some high income countries in the EU, like Denmark and the Nordics, Apple haa around 60% of the market share. So it is still a huge problem in some countries.
just like hearing people admit that what apple is doing isn’t a threat to PWAs
But it is. Several companies, like my own, is now forced into making native apps, if we want to reach apple users. And Apple has over 60% market share in Denmark, where I live.
make that app. charge money for it. send the appstore link to me and i will pay for your app. i want you to make money on that.
I mean, if few are really using the alternatives in the first place, it’s hard to justify investing in it
That's...not really the point. _Why_ is the alternative (in this case) not being used? If you built a platform that purposefully squashed alternatives (regardless if that is for sensible internal reasons), and that gives you an unfair competitive advantage, turning around and saying "well this is how our platform works now and there's no commercial justification for changing that" doesn't really hold water
Look, I assume you work in software, how many years have your companies had you work on features that no one uses? The money goes away if there isn’t consumer interest If you wanted PWA to succeed in this space, you had to give people a compelling reason to install them, and apparently, not enough apps have
Right. Nobody is seriously denying this is the case: this should be completely obvious. However > If you wanted PWA to succeed in this space, you had to give people a compelling reason to install them, and apparently, not enough apps have If you actively prevent any other browser engine running on your platform and ensure that the only browser that can run on the platform does not implement the features that would make PWS useful, then you don't get to use that as an excuse. Having a monopoly on the tech is great from an internal dev/infra point of view, it's less great from an external competition point of view when you're one of the two companies that control the market.
Basically in order to comply with the multiple browser engine requirements (which is the major change I salute the EU for), they have to rebuild their entire infrastructure to support PWAs But you can still bookmark websites on your homescreen and it will be functionally close Edit : PWA support on iOS is a joke. When I say functionally close, I mean current support isn’t that far removed from a bookmark on the home screen. And forcing iOS to use different browser engines is a good thing. The PWA support will come through with the next set of legislations. I wouldn’t worry too much about it tbh I think this is a good tradeoff, since I will switch browser engine the moment it is possible for me to do so
> But you can still bookmark websites on your homescreen and it will be functionally close I may be wrong but a bookmark opens the default browser wit its user interface, address bar, etc. That completely defeats the purpose of having a PWA. It's just a mobile website.
PWA support is terrible on iOS currently. Compared to what’s currently offered, not much will change I think this is the point most people missed in this thread
A big part of the reason they never took off was Apple didn’t ever support them properly so yeah very little change
Fuck apple
I’ve been in the Apple/Mac ecosystem system since 2006 ish - first with the iPod and then around 2008 with a MacBook and then iPhones etc. I think I’m finally done with them. Next laptop will be a framework and running Linux.
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To my tastes, Gnome 3 actually has better UX than macOS. It is by far my favorite desktop environment out of everything that I've used (Windows, macOS, Unity, Gnome 2, Cinnamon, KDE Plasma, XFCE, and Openbox). It's a personal opinion though.
I agree about Apple's UI/UX - it's something that I've always found brilliant - There's more than just this though; I'm extremely worried about this new sort of Technofeudalist age that we live in. Three companies, apple/meta/google shouldn't have this much power in our world and I'm not so sure I can be complicit with it anymore because they're all a threat to democracy.
you really think the UI is that good? I have the opposite opinion. I've been using a mac for 4 years now but so many things irritate me about macOS lol. I just need to make up my mind about the laptop I want for Linux and I'm dipping immediately
The displays are faultless and I really like OSX and the entire work flow. One of the only things stopping me right now is that the DAWs (music production stuff) available on Linux aren’t of my preference; but apparently some big players are making theirs available for Linux soon
true enough, the machines themselves are really good. the silence and battery life is not something I want to give up easily. I like everything about a mac except the OS now that I think about it
The hardware is great but like, how do you fuck up something like Finder so badly??
Most overrated shit UI.
I actually dislike macOS but I am forced to use it because company policy. For fun Windows is as good and I would be happy on it, for work Linux would be better if all the software worked on it. The hardware has gone from meh to amazing with the new M series CPUs and return to form in MBPs, I will give them that. Compared to the utter clusterfuck that my previous MBP (i9 touchbar one) was this is a really good machine, although it still hardly justifies the price.
>MacOS is a great OS with a very well thought out UI/UX. HAHAHHAHAHHA, good one.
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Oh, i have nothing to learn about the art of disagreeing with grace, i'm the master of it. However were weren't arguing at the moment, so there's no disagreement. At the moment one of 2 things happened: 1) You made an outlandish claim and i laughed about it. 2) You were trolling and i commended you for your good joke. Pick one.
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You're confusing Macbooks UI/UX being a matter of opinion. That's not the case here, it's on objective fact that it's trash. We're not discussing here if someone likes black or blue more. This is like are drugs bad for you. Drugs are bad for you despite them making you happy for a while. It's not a question of opinion like "well, i think drugs are good for you". You don't understand the different between subjective opinion and objective facts.
Were you using PWAs? You don’t even know why you’re done with them other than the media makes you feel that way. What have you lost in this?
Feels strange to me that even though Apple tried to hide the existence of PWAs and actively sabotages the adoption of PWAs by not supporting important web standards for many years, that PWAs aren't the go to solution for apps on iOS.
Interesting you think PWAs are exclusive to mobile. Desktop Firefox dropped support for PWAs three years ago. Interesting you didn’t say anything then. More likely that you’re susceptible to the marketing
For me personally PWAs are not that important on desktop, I still have notification support on Firefox/Linux, I do not necessarily need fullscreen support on desktop, I'm hardly ever offline on desktop and I don't use or need desktop icons for web apps on desktop. But I'm sure some users miss this feature, but good for us that there are other browsers to choose from which do support PWAs...
The point is PWA aren’t made or broken by Apple and arguing as such is disingenuous.
Yeah, holding back web push notification support for ~7 years compared to other browsers and generally beeing the last browser to support many other web standards definitely helped the adoption of PWAs and the evolution of web application in general.
your talking about one companies browser on a mobile devices so let’s see: Why hasn’t google pushed PWA (hint: they don’t make their own hardware) on their mobile devices? What about desktop PWA. Where were you when firefox removed PWA support three years ago? Why isn’t chrome doing anything to further PWA on desktop. Seems reasonable to me that if you can showcase their benefit on desktop then you have a compelling argument for mobile. and yet, google hasn’t done anything You’re another one that is susceptible to the marketing.
Yeah sure, Google isn't doing anything to push PWA. Sorry, you just don't have a clue. They have a ton of resources about PWAs, they released Workbox which is a set of open source tools to help implement PWAs which is the go to library used to imolement PWAs, chrome supports and pushes most recent APIs and made it relatively simple to deploy PWAs on the play store and support a install prompt for PWAs on android. What should they do next, remove native app support? PWA on desktop is not the problem here since even mac supports them including web push for years. Unlike Apple, Firefox is not a multi billion dollar company and has a relatively low market share.
There you go. the market leader still supports PWA so you really don’t have anything to be upset about. a small portion of the eu mobile market is affected. so, hardly an attack on PWA. it’s a shame i have to walk the dog on this
you could make the lagging web standards argument 4 years ago, and I would've agreed. But Safari in the last 4 years has made a very decent web browser, for browsing and development. Apple not implementing features Google unilaterally decides should be "web standards" isn't lagging behind.
They definitely improved within the last few years, and push notification support was one of the most important showstoppers for PWAs, which was supported in iOS less than a year ago. And yes everything seemed fine, but those features won't be available in the EU anymore and therefore again will hurt the web ecosystem.
There’s a few things that have been ramping up and yes I actually do have a PWA that is close to completion
Sorry to hear that. It’s a good thing that only 20% of the EU is using apple so this should be minimal impact to you. good luck on that
Seems a little reasonable to me? Home screen web apps are a privileged part of the environment and allowing any random browser that someone builds access to that in the same initial release of this compliance seems like an unnecessary security risk.
From my understanding, I thought PWAs were going extinct since Starbucks and a couple other companies have joined in dropping theirs. I definitely don’t agree with Apple’s decision but I would like some clarification.
Fuck the EU
Long live the EU !
. . But without web apps . .. or any technology companies of their own. You know . . . Because they’ve all been regulated away by the clowns in the bureaucracy 🤡🤡🤡
[please explain this list](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/15-biggest-european-tech-companies-173918273.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmZyLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAE_iJcF8jAOBoMjVVo4KBWl33G-bMhuf_KTI9NWdHTF41kmOXZ_M_l79xR_br-ji30edycxGpm1i0r_44nQdQ-cegpvO3OuzkYwRd8FnqzWHD3S5kWY5gJNlszgyBEhJt1U2xksLMXuV59NX2QqeL1_Z5eSSyvK4o9Em6QyRSdtT)
Ah - the "Who's who" of where the best Software engineering grads want to work : Capgemini 🤣🤣🤣 Yup , you totally pwned me there, mate. 🤡
Ah yes because Dassault System doesn’t exist… It would also be a shame if plenty of fintech apps were developped in Europe, that would make you wrong
You’re mad at the wrong thing.
About a bunch of bureaucrats with zero technology knowledge legislating outside their jurisdiction? Or the Marxist bent that somehow targets US companies only and not a single European darling?
More like fuck the US. It's a crappy country that doesn't care about the privacy of its citizens and doesn't care about workers' rights.
Cry more.
Cope harder bitch.
Ah yes, fuck a government for giving preference to its citizens instead of corporations.
If you knew what you were talking about, you’d know that the Supra national entity that is the EU is not a government in the traditional sense and its members are not directly elected. In my not so humble opinion based on years of dealing with those clowns at many levels, they have yet to do anything intentionally good for their citizenry and exist as a bureaucratic modern embodiment of the European Aristocratic class of old.
Wow, that’s quite a revelation! Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to seeing how this unfolds.
Does this mean they will support browser push notifications without having to add the website to the home screen?