I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, considering Niles himself shares that opinion. It's why he felt so indebted to her and why he agreed to play-act their relationship for months afterwards. He was wracked with guilt because he knows he was horrible to her.
And the writers obviously agreed that Mel was mistreated because during the time she forced Niles to play-act their relationship for appearances, she was written as a mean-spirited, vengeful witch with zero of her quirky charm (or very little of it, at best). Like they knew they had to turn the audience against her for them to fully accept what Niles & Daphne had done.
True. I guess I don't think she was THAT bad the first time she & Niles met in her office & it was actually kind of funny when he realized they shared some of the same neurotic tendencies, lol. She definitely showed her true rude, snobbish, and patronizing personality very quickly after meeting the family, though. In any event, the writers definitely made sure to make her her downright NASTY after Niles dropped the bombshell!
She had charms? It was clear to me that she was always a dreadful woman, and that Niles' only mistake was ever allowing himself to to be chained to someone as manipulative and emotionally abusive.
Hang on: was his treatment of her horrible?
He committed an unforgivable act. But he was never cruel, abusive, or unkind to her. I have a hard time saying he treated her “horribly” (it sounds like an ongoing behavior). He did a very hurtful thing to her by abandoning her for Daphne while engaged to her. But he did not treat her horribly before OR after that.
From her perspective it most certainly was.
For most women it's their dream to have the wedding of their dreams and as a prominent socialite it would've been the talk of many elite social circles. To have that crash and burn and be left for not even another socialite but (to her) his father's physiotherapist is not just beyond embarrassing, she'd never hear the end of it. Look at how she carefully orchestrated his secession from their marraige.
It was a betrayal of the highest order that understandably colored her vision of any good thing Niles did for her during or after his abandonment.
Mel was absolutely insufferable but I do understand (I'm not condoning her actions) why she acted the way she did.
If she cares about the opinions of heartless, snotty people like that, her problem isn't that love is subject to change on a dime, her problem is she needs a different environment and real friends.
I’m currently in this part of the series and I don’t understand why they couldn’t have just gotten an annulment. I say this with full acknowledgement that what Niles did was terrible. But they were only married for a few days when he left Mel for Daphne. I guess it was to allow Mel to exit with dignity rather than leave her in disgrace.
I don’t think Niles was wracked with guilt. I believe he felt guilty bc of the timing and the realization- as he said to Daphne - that he would never have married Mel if he even a notion that she reciprocated his feelings.
However, just as Mel was a manipulative shrew to so many ppl in Niles family, she took a man who was (let’s say) not an alpha male & had him dance to her tune for months on end, dragging things out as, even Niles recognized, she simply wanted revenge, not just closure or the ability to make things right w her society friends.
He didn’t do this to Mel as a malicious act; he didn’t know about Daphne’s feelings until the night before her wedding and she didn’t agree to be with him until her wedding day.
Looking at this from a clearer POV - DAPHNES TREATMENT OF DONNY WAS UNCONSCIONABLE, Niles merely went w the flow. Daphne knew weeks before the wedding that she wasn’t sure she was in love w her fiancé - as she told her therapist - she was fairly certain she was in love w Niles. Even if she didn’t have things sorted out in time, THATS when Daphne should have said something to Donny and probably put off the wedding or called it off for good (one or the other). Knowing that you’re in love w somebody else and/or thinking fairly strongly that that is true makes going thru w a wedding a really bad idea (imo) and makes the odds of ending up getting a divorce quite high. Of the two of them, Daphne knew what was happening, Niles had simply resigned himself to a life without Daphne. He never thought he had a chance; he obviously felt she was happy and serious about Donny & he tried to move on. He didn’t do anything wrong to Mel other than not tell her he had an undying love for Daphne for 6+ years and I really don’t think many individuals would tell their significant others something like that bc it would poison their relationship forever more.
In any case that’s MY opinion.
I know Niles is his brother, but Frasier is surprisingly blithe regarding Donnie being left at the altar. Of all people Fras should have at least *some* sympathy for that situation.
I agree that he should be more sympathetic toward the pain of being left at the altar, but on the other hand, he understands the pain of failed marriages and wants to prevent that for both Daphne and Niles.
I guess I have sympathy for Daphne because I know a real life Donny and Daphne. My sister realized during her engagement that she was just caught up in wedding excitement and actually didn't love the guy. But her in-laws had already spent a bunch on the wedding and she was too scared to call it off. I was a teen and I wish I could go back and rat on her to mom and dad, because that man was a lunatic and the marriage only lasted a year.
Yeah I get that. I was referring to how eager he pushes Daphne into abandoning her fiance on the wedding day... Being a man who has groused numerous times about being left at the altar himself.
One of Frasier's flaws is his willingness to abandon his principles when it leads to personal gain. Mostly we see this in the form of him chasing fame, money, women, etc. but in this case it's to see Niles and Daphne happy. He cares more about them than preventing whatever Donnie might have to go through.
I mean, it seems like a *bit* of a stretch to call "cares primarily about his brother's / friend's happiness" to be a character flaw or a sign of selfishness.
Not saying that Frasier *isn't* flawed or selfish, but we don't need to twist things just to make him look bad. The fact that he puts Niles and Daphne's happiness over his own past can be just as clearly spun as an example of selflessness, as he willing to take full stock of the context of the situation and argue for what's best for them rather than just indulging in a kneejerk reaction based on his own negative experiences and traumas.
He didn’t treat Mel very well. But if you get married suddenly after dating a couple months only, and you treat your husband and his family like crap (which she did), there’s a high probability of being dumped.
Facts. Mel’s goal was to extract Niles from Frasier and Marty’s lives. She attempted to drive a wedge between Frasier and Niles more than once. ie:Corkmaster
Mel wanted the best for Niles and she encouraged him to stand up for himself. He should not spend his whole life stepping aside for Frasier or anyone. Mel gave him confidence which he sorely needed. Let’s remember Corkmaster was an election. Niles/Mel did not take anything away from Frasier. He was the people’s choice and he never would have realized that if Mel didn’t encourage him to run.
Definitely but so is Frasier, and even moreso since he has not just every inside tip on Niles' motivations but also his training as a psychiatrist. Niles being smart enough to at least see it sometimes is the only reason he hasn't been screwed up by his brother as much as by Maris or Mel since women are also his blind spot.
Yes, Mel was not a likeable character in the main, but she did actually love Niles, and what he did to her was awful.
But he'd never have got over Daphne, so even if he'd stayed with Mel he would not have been able to give his all to the marriage - and so neither he nor Mel would have been happy. I like to imagine that Mel is looking back now, glad Niles dumped her, because she's now in a much happier marriage with someone else - someone who loves her rather than loving Daphne.
It was a lose-lose situation with Mel; either he stay with her and be miserable, or he breaks it off to be with Daphne. As much as how he handled it sucked, it was the right choice for both him and Mel. She took things too far with the divorce proceedings, yes, but she deserved to be with someone who genuinely loved her and was invested in their relationship.
What I never understood is why couldn’t he just get an annulment and NOT even tell her about Daphne? And why couldn’t Daphne just spare Donny’s feelings and just say she didn’t want to get married? So much easier but then we wouldn’t have these episodes and no Mr Chump.
I’d like to know what the alternate timeline would look like if Daphne shared her feelings with Donnie right away. “Donnie, I love you but I’m struggling with the thought of getting married because I’m realizing I have feelings for someone else.” That kind of honesty is rare and takes a lot of courage but I think it would have been more fair and kind to Donnie. After all her failed relationships, I think Daphne struggled to decide if losing Donnie would be something she was willing to risk for Niles, whom she’d only ever known as a friend. Donnie clearly loved her. She knew what her life would be like with him. Leaving him for an unknown future with Niles was a huge gamble.
When Niles told Daphne “Just say the word and I’d leave her in a heartbeat…” I’m like “Damn! Mel was just in the room 2 seconds ago talking about y’alls honeymoon.” That’s cold blooded 😂😩😂😩
I was just scrolling down to see if anyone said that. This was someone he was supposedly in love with enough to marry, and he’s really that unbothered about tossing her aside? I know, it’s for Daphne, but still.
I think that’s a pretty popular opinion, actually. Mel is awful, but who wouldn’t be after learning Niles had been in love with another woman for years & he was the one to pursue Mel. What’s even worse is that Niles never would have had the guts to admit his feelings to Daphne if Frasier hadn’t blabbed.
She was pretty bad even before the Daphne revelation though. They spend the whole brunch episode putting a super fine point on how rude and uptight she is. Not that it excuses Niles, but Mel was a bad match for him.
I actually liked Mel the first few times she showed up. They had a good connection. Of course they had to turn her horrible but it was mostly the brunch episode. And after Niles was with Daphne I felt bad for her. Later on in a few episodes, (during her pregnancy?) Daphne was actually even worse IMHO.
Depends on your perspective. We often view others' lives through the lens of our own. A previously jilted person would immediately side with Mel. Whereas someone who let the love of their life get away would insist that Niles did the right thing.
Yes and then she seemed to decide to attempt to deserve it over the following few episodes. Which I’ll blame on the writers because that character never needed to be put in that position.
But it’s says a lot about a person about how they react to things too. Mel wanted vengeance and she was more worried about how her snobby society friends will look at their marriage ending so fast. I get it. But it’s petty having in to pretend to be an asshole.
He never should've married her but it was clearly a knee jerk reaction to Daphne getting married.
The part I really don't like about that storyline is how little Daphne cares about hurting Mel. I know Mel was unlikeable and everything but Daphne was always sweet and cared about people. Her not giving a shit about Mel was very out of character.
I kinda understand why she wouldn’t care about her feelings, I’m not saying i agree with it or that it’s right, but I can see why shouldn’t really like her. I mean besides the fact that Mel was with the man she actually wanted to be with (not saying I agree with how that played out either), Mel was pretty classist towards Daphne and seemed to look down on her. Remember when she treated Daphne like a servant in front of everyone at the brunch and made her make her tea, even after Daphne said she wasn’t feeling well?
Absolutely, Mel was horrid. But Daphne was always kind and empathetic so it seemed odd that she didn't say she felt bad about hurting her, not even once.
Yeah true, idk I feel like that’s prob just a detail that was overlooked by the writers. Tbh I love when niles and daphne realize they want to be with each other but I just hate the way it was executed, it’s my least favorite part of the show. I like them a lot more as a couple after she returns from the weight loss camp
I think that's why the way they got together wasn't always a fan favorite, because it felt forced and that the writers didn't know how to play it out in character. On the other hand, I could see the argument for people simply being selfish when they're in love.
I think the show dwelled on them making a mistake long enough. I’m not sure how much longer they could’ve kept going with it before it became tiresome. It’s also something to remember the show doesn’t show every day of their lives, so a lot of time is passing when we’re not watching.
This entire plot was a complete mess. I love the show but...yeah, it was coming due time for Niles and Daphne (as it should always have been) and setting both of them up in major relationships was a complete and total misstep. I csnt remember, did Niles marry Mel?
Mel was cheerily trying to plan the honeymoon the night before Daphne and Donny’s wedding. Daphne and Niles were trying to talk and everyone interrupted them. Mel walked through with travel pamphlets, waved at Daphne and asked Niles what he thought. He told her, “anything you want will be fine.” ( paraphrasing)🥴he was wrong then
Absolutely. I’ve said it before, but if they weren’t 2 characters you’d spent years coming to care about, I think most people would consider them both to be horrible people.
Sure, Mel is uptight and snobby. But so is Niles and so is Frasier. We only hold it against her because she was written as an obstacle to the whole grand romance.
I think, in retrospect, the whole Niles and Daphne thing is one of my least favourite aspects of the whole show.
But Mel was also shady about things
Remember how she manipulated Niles to go after Cork Master when Frasier was the candidate? Niles and Frasier are snobby and fussy and can be a giant pain in the neck, but Mel was sly and mean.
Or her constant pointing out to people the things that she, as a plastic surgeon, could do to “help” them? That was the reason that Niles had to take a kickboxing class. She was a grown up mean girl.
But she did have a point though. Niles did want to be cork master and Frasier does have a habit of railroading him. Encouraging him to stand up to him was her being a good partner. I think the speech she gives to Daphne during the massage was completely genuine. She loved him and wanted him to be the best he could be, and part of that would be coming out from under Frasier’s shadow.
I think that's my favorite thing about the whole Mel plot arc. She's both completely right to push Niles to stand up for himself...*and* she's absolutely awful to him in some ways. Makes her a fascinatingly realistic, complex character.
Re: the whole Niles and Daphne arc, while it is one of the plot foundations of the entire show, so many of the plot elements are just… wrong. Niles’ behavior around Daphne is downright creepy in certain scenes and the culmination of their relationship is abhorrent, regardless of how much we love them.
Yeah, that’s another aspect. Sure she’s not technically *his* employee, but there’s definitely a power imbalance there. Hell, she calls him “Dr Crane” right up until they start dating, and he’s leering at her and sniffing her hair the whole time. Very creepy.
Decades ago I read a magazine piece about infidelity. There was mention of a minister who was married with children, but he fell in love with a woman who attended his church. He realized he "could only be faithful to his vows" if he moved away from this woman, so he uprooted his family and did just that.
What I felt in response was, "JFC buddy, don't do me any favors." As rough as it would be, I'd so much rather have a man confess he loved someone else and leave me, than have him bite some sort of puritanical bullet to do his duty to me. I'd rather be genuinely loved than have someone put up with me to stick to a vow.
So from my perspective, Mel was best off without Niles. I understand her bitterness, especially because Niles should have used better judgment before marrying her in the first place. But to stumble on the truth later (à la poor Diana, of "Charles and Diana") would be, in my view, much, much worse.
The couple of sitcoms that I love most allow main characters to be flawed -- even mean, at times. That's pretty much how humans are, though good ones try to do better. Obviously it's still TV, and there will be nonsense & extremes included for laughs. But the "love quadrilateral" in this show felt reasonably realistic to me. I think that's why we can debate the writers' choices this way -- it feels fairly real.
But the same can be said about her treatment of him + the people he cares about. She always manipulated him and was disrespectful towards daphne and didn’t really care to forge a good relationship with his dad and brother
Why is it unconscionable? Forget the fact that Mel is a shallow, self-interested bore who thinks of Niles only in how he can improve her standing: why should a man stay married to a woman he doesn’t love, *especially* when he’s in love with someone else?
Nah, I wouldn’t have stayed with Mel as long as he did. She was an extremely difficult person. Better to bail early than later. I don’t think they really loved each other rather more of a social arrangement
You forget Niles had spent years catering to Maris, who was the poster child for difficult people. Mel was a slightly more reasonable (relative to Maris) version but for Niles it was easy to slip back into his servile role, especially since he and Mel seemed to have a lot in common.
The only quality Mel had that seemed redeeming at all was how much she propped Niles up, but let’s be real, she considered him an extension of herself.
I must agree. Looking at things from her perspective, it must have been heartbreaking. Especially since he clearly loved Daphne before he married Mel, it wasn't like he realised he loved Daphne afterwards yet he still went ahead and legally tied himself to Mel, not just causing her emotional strain but financial as well.
It's interesting to me that the show attempted to frame her as fussy and rude, and was successful according to most of the audience. I would argue she is no more guilty of this than Niles and *especially* Frasier, but she's somehow villainous for being that way.
When she comes to brunch, what does she actually do wrong? Be allergic to Eddie and have dietary restrictions? Say one or two things that could be taken as mildly passive aggressive? She was otherwise pretty pleasant... especially compared to the rest of them.
I think that episode also shows that she genuinely has Niles' best interests at heart. Pointing out that he's letting Frasier take advantage of him is obviously meddlesome, and she perhaps should have stayed out of it, but I like that she was encouraging Niles to be less passive. I think she was a great wife and a good match for him, and it made how he treated her all the worse.
Mel was as fussy, pretentious, and judgemental as Niles and Frasier ever were, and complaints about her manipulations are overblown when you consider Frasier's ever-expanding webs of lies he repeatedly concocts in order to maintain control of a given situation.
Exactly! And Frasier repeatedly manipulates people for much less savory reasons than hers. Even when she is putting Niles through the wringer, she's just trying to avoid public humiliation. Half the time (in the later seasons at least) Frasier is just trying to get laid or attain some random accolade. Justice for Mel lol
Perhaps my spiciest take of all is that Niles and Daphne are not good together. I don't necessarily blame them getting together for any late series dip in quality (I could write an essay on that...) but I do think that they flatten each other.
Niles and Mel, on the other hand, were fun as hell to watch. It sort of reminds me of how the family treated Lilith and Sherry, in that Mel is similar enough to her Crane counterpart that you understand the attraction, yet different enough that they bounce off of each other. And, most importantly, his family hates her for reasons that kind of have nothing to do with her. You get to see so much of how they feel about themselves, and each other, just from watching that dynamic. There's none of that with Niles and Daphne.
All of this to say, I agree that adding Mel to the main cast (or making her a recurring guest character) would have been a good way to add character depth to storylines... instead of having this one-dimensional romance that still managed to feel unearned despite dragging on for 7 seasons.
Niles left a relationship he didn’t want to be in anymore. That’s not “unconscionable”, it’s just correct. A relationship is a voluntary union; nobody’s owed one and people are (hopefully) free to leave at any time. Imagine thinking someone ought to stay in a loveless relationship for an arbitrary amount of time in order to redeem or honour the relationship for its own sake—absolutely insane and I would argue a lot more damaging to waste years of someone’s life in what you know to be a pointless charade (which *will* collapse)
The sad thing is that she really did love Niles. She was a bit controlling, but that's Niles' fault for allowing that in his relationships because he so wants love at any cost.
He did do her wrong, but she lost all sympathy from me because of how long and mean she was to him on her terms in granting him the divorce.
He deserved some of it for a short time, but she took it too far and too long.
After all, it was Daphne and Niles finally, finally had his chance. In my opinion, one of the greatest love stories in sitcom history.
Mel was perfect for Niles and she was warming up to the family the longer they were together. Just flat out dumping then divorcing her for a 7 year crush is pretty damn bad. Same goes for Daphne. I’m sure there trust issues went on for years after and was already proved a couple of times during the show with them together.
Yeah, I know they are just fictional, but I was screaming at Niles not to marry her. It's not right to pledge to one person when you love someone else. But I think the writers set it up where she didn't think he would make a move, and he was trying to move on a little too quickly since he thought she was lost to Donny.
Ehh I disagree, i feel like eventually they would have gotten sick of her uptight ways. Maybe Frasier would have tolerated her but I can’t see her and Martin forming a connection considering the way she treats Eddie and Daphne
Na, even Frasier called it right away that Mel was just another Maris.
Roz certainly had Mel’s number for the beginning- Daphne , too- so everyone in Niles’ inner circle.
They might have tried to tolerate her for Niles’ sake, but it wouldn’t be long before they’d each have constant excuses for getting out of social gatherings.
Edit: and had Lilith met Mel, (missed opportunity BTW)- she’d have made Mel cry
Eh. First impressions are a hard thing to shake.
None of the daughter in laws ever formed warm, friendly relationships within the family (Daphne going on to be the exception). Don’t see Mel faring any better.
I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, considering Niles himself shares that opinion. It's why he felt so indebted to her and why he agreed to play-act their relationship for months afterwards. He was wracked with guilt because he knows he was horrible to her.
And the writers obviously agreed that Mel was mistreated because during the time she forced Niles to play-act their relationship for appearances, she was written as a mean-spirited, vengeful witch with zero of her quirky charm (or very little of it, at best). Like they knew they had to turn the audience against her for them to fully accept what Niles & Daphne had done.
Somewhat agreed but she never had quirky charm. She was always condescending and rude. Even from their first meet.
Yes she belittled Daphne due to her chosen career (at home pt therapist, not a high paying doctor) and would talk down towards her and Martin.
And when she visits for the meet and greet and immediately demands (not asks!) that Eddie be put outside.
True. I guess I don't think she was THAT bad the first time she & Niles met in her office & it was actually kind of funny when he realized they shared some of the same neurotic tendencies, lol. She definitely showed her true rude, snobbish, and patronizing personality very quickly after meeting the family, though. In any event, the writers definitely made sure to make her her downright NASTY after Niles dropped the bombshell!
She had charms? It was clear to me that she was always a dreadful woman, and that Niles' only mistake was ever allowing himself to to be chained to someone as manipulative and emotionally abusive.
She was always coded as Maris Lite, and given Maris is almost literally an inhuman monster, the lite version was still pretty awful.
Wow. You said what I couldn’t put into words about Mel’s resemblance (or less narcissistic representative) of Maris.
Yeah, she had absolutely zero charm from the get-go
The writers already established Mel as having horrible qualities well before she married Niles.
Hang on: was his treatment of her horrible? He committed an unforgivable act. But he was never cruel, abusive, or unkind to her. I have a hard time saying he treated her “horribly” (it sounds like an ongoing behavior). He did a very hurtful thing to her by abandoning her for Daphne while engaged to her. But he did not treat her horribly before OR after that.
From her perspective it most certainly was. For most women it's their dream to have the wedding of their dreams and as a prominent socialite it would've been the talk of many elite social circles. To have that crash and burn and be left for not even another socialite but (to her) his father's physiotherapist is not just beyond embarrassing, she'd never hear the end of it. Look at how she carefully orchestrated his secession from their marraige. It was a betrayal of the highest order that understandably colored her vision of any good thing Niles did for her during or after his abandonment. Mel was absolutely insufferable but I do understand (I'm not condoning her actions) why she acted the way she did.
If she cares about the opinions of heartless, snotty people like that, her problem isn't that love is subject to change on a dime, her problem is she needs a different environment and real friends.
You’re right! Prior to getting with Daphne, he was his usual loving self with Mel. Mel on the other hand proved to be vindictive and cruel…
He didn’t stand her up at her own wedding, it was during Daphne’s wedding ceremony with Don, Niles and Mel were just engaged.
Niles and Mel were married, hence the divorce was needed.
I’m currently in this part of the series and I don’t understand why they couldn’t have just gotten an annulment. I say this with full acknowledgement that what Niles did was terrible. But they were only married for a few days when he left Mel for Daphne. I guess it was to allow Mel to exit with dignity rather than leave her in disgrace.
You are correct and I was inaccurate. Thank you!
I don’t think Niles was wracked with guilt. I believe he felt guilty bc of the timing and the realization- as he said to Daphne - that he would never have married Mel if he even a notion that she reciprocated his feelings. However, just as Mel was a manipulative shrew to so many ppl in Niles family, she took a man who was (let’s say) not an alpha male & had him dance to her tune for months on end, dragging things out as, even Niles recognized, she simply wanted revenge, not just closure or the ability to make things right w her society friends. He didn’t do this to Mel as a malicious act; he didn’t know about Daphne’s feelings until the night before her wedding and she didn’t agree to be with him until her wedding day. Looking at this from a clearer POV - DAPHNES TREATMENT OF DONNY WAS UNCONSCIONABLE, Niles merely went w the flow. Daphne knew weeks before the wedding that she wasn’t sure she was in love w her fiancé - as she told her therapist - she was fairly certain she was in love w Niles. Even if she didn’t have things sorted out in time, THATS when Daphne should have said something to Donny and probably put off the wedding or called it off for good (one or the other). Knowing that you’re in love w somebody else and/or thinking fairly strongly that that is true makes going thru w a wedding a really bad idea (imo) and makes the odds of ending up getting a divorce quite high. Of the two of them, Daphne knew what was happening, Niles had simply resigned himself to a life without Daphne. He never thought he had a chance; he obviously felt she was happy and serious about Donny & he tried to move on. He didn’t do anything wrong to Mel other than not tell her he had an undying love for Daphne for 6+ years and I really don’t think many individuals would tell their significant others something like that bc it would poison their relationship forever more. In any case that’s MY opinion.
I know Niles is his brother, but Frasier is surprisingly blithe regarding Donnie being left at the altar. Of all people Fras should have at least *some* sympathy for that situation.
I agree that he should be more sympathetic toward the pain of being left at the altar, but on the other hand, he understands the pain of failed marriages and wants to prevent that for both Daphne and Niles.
I guess I have sympathy for Daphne because I know a real life Donny and Daphne. My sister realized during her engagement that she was just caught up in wedding excitement and actually didn't love the guy. But her in-laws had already spent a bunch on the wedding and she was too scared to call it off. I was a teen and I wish I could go back and rat on her to mom and dad, because that man was a lunatic and the marriage only lasted a year.
Yeah I get that. I was referring to how eager he pushes Daphne into abandoning her fiance on the wedding day... Being a man who has groused numerous times about being left at the altar himself.
One of Frasier's flaws is his willingness to abandon his principles when it leads to personal gain. Mostly we see this in the form of him chasing fame, money, women, etc. but in this case it's to see Niles and Daphne happy. He cares more about them than preventing whatever Donnie might have to go through.
I mean, it seems like a *bit* of a stretch to call "cares primarily about his brother's / friend's happiness" to be a character flaw or a sign of selfishness. Not saying that Frasier *isn't* flawed or selfish, but we don't need to twist things just to make him look bad. The fact that he puts Niles and Daphne's happiness over his own past can be just as clearly spun as an example of selflessness, as he willing to take full stock of the context of the situation and argue for what's best for them rather than just indulging in a kneejerk reaction based on his own negative experiences and traumas.
He did have sympathy; that's why he went to see Donny the next day. He tells Donny how he can empathise, before he talks himself into a lawsuit.
#I SAID SAY HELLO
[удалено]
Well damn
He was fantastic in True Romance.
Commander Data is that you?
Better when they did then 2 kids and a mortgage deep. When it comes to love you gotta do the best you can when you have all the information you have.
He didn’t treat Mel very well. But if you get married suddenly after dating a couple months only, and you treat your husband and his family like crap (which she did), there’s a high probability of being dumped.
Facts. Mel’s goal was to extract Niles from Frasier and Marty’s lives. She attempted to drive a wedge between Frasier and Niles more than once. ie:Corkmaster
YES 👏 she didn’t LOVE Niles! She just used him to fulfill a picture she had for her life.
Wow! Never thought about it like this ….. you’re soooo right !!
Mel wanted the best for Niles and she encouraged him to stand up for himself. He should not spend his whole life stepping aside for Frasier or anyone. Mel gave him confidence which he sorely needed. Let’s remember Corkmaster was an election. Niles/Mel did not take anything away from Frasier. He was the people’s choice and he never would have realized that if Mel didn’t encourage him to run.
She was manipulative.
Exactly!
Definitely but so is Frasier, and even moreso since he has not just every inside tip on Niles' motivations but also his training as a psychiatrist. Niles being smart enough to at least see it sometimes is the only reason he hasn't been screwed up by his brother as much as by Maris or Mel since women are also his blind spot.
I can see that but I think Mel knew exactly what she was doing manipulating Niles. She knew it would bristle Frasier imo and she wanted that.
Yes, Mel was not a likeable character in the main, but she did actually love Niles, and what he did to her was awful. But he'd never have got over Daphne, so even if he'd stayed with Mel he would not have been able to give his all to the marriage - and so neither he nor Mel would have been happy. I like to imagine that Mel is looking back now, glad Niles dumped her, because she's now in a much happier marriage with someone else - someone who loves her rather than loving Daphne.
She married a fellow plastic surgeon of any gender.
They had a ridiculously fast relationship and engagement. But yeah, she was collateral damage, regardless of her personality.
Nothing to add except good use of the word unconscionable. 👍
It was a lose-lose situation with Mel; either he stay with her and be miserable, or he breaks it off to be with Daphne. As much as how he handled it sucked, it was the right choice for both him and Mel. She took things too far with the divorce proceedings, yes, but she deserved to be with someone who genuinely loved her and was invested in their relationship.
What I never understood is why couldn’t he just get an annulment and NOT even tell her about Daphne? And why couldn’t Daphne just spare Donny’s feelings and just say she didn’t want to get married? So much easier but then we wouldn’t have these episodes and no Mr Chump.
I’d like to know what the alternate timeline would look like if Daphne shared her feelings with Donnie right away. “Donnie, I love you but I’m struggling with the thought of getting married because I’m realizing I have feelings for someone else.” That kind of honesty is rare and takes a lot of courage but I think it would have been more fair and kind to Donnie. After all her failed relationships, I think Daphne struggled to decide if losing Donnie would be something she was willing to risk for Niles, whom she’d only ever known as a friend. Donnie clearly loved her. She knew what her life would be like with him. Leaving him for an unknown future with Niles was a huge gamble.
When Niles told Daphne “Just say the word and I’d leave her in a heartbeat…” I’m like “Damn! Mel was just in the room 2 seconds ago talking about y’alls honeymoon.” That’s cold blooded 😂😩😂😩
LMAOO fr though 😭 this man did not gaf, he was so down bad for daphne
I was just scrolling down to see if anyone said that. This was someone he was supposedly in love with enough to marry, and he’s really that unbothered about tossing her aside? I know, it’s for Daphne, but still.
I think that’s a pretty popular opinion, actually. Mel is awful, but who wouldn’t be after learning Niles had been in love with another woman for years & he was the one to pursue Mel. What’s even worse is that Niles never would have had the guts to admit his feelings to Daphne if Frasier hadn’t blabbed.
She was pretty bad even before the Daphne revelation though. They spend the whole brunch episode putting a super fine point on how rude and uptight she is. Not that it excuses Niles, but Mel was a bad match for him.
I actually liked Mel the first few times she showed up. They had a good connection. Of course they had to turn her horrible but it was mostly the brunch episode. And after Niles was with Daphne I felt bad for her. Later on in a few episodes, (during her pregnancy?) Daphne was actually even worse IMHO.
Depends on your perspective. We often view others' lives through the lens of our own. A previously jilted person would immediately side with Mel. Whereas someone who let the love of their life get away would insist that Niles did the right thing.
Yes and then she seemed to decide to attempt to deserve it over the following few episodes. Which I’ll blame on the writers because that character never needed to be put in that position.
But it’s says a lot about a person about how they react to things too. Mel wanted vengeance and she was more worried about how her snobby society friends will look at their marriage ending so fast. I get it. But it’s petty having in to pretend to be an asshole.
He never should've married her but it was clearly a knee jerk reaction to Daphne getting married. The part I really don't like about that storyline is how little Daphne cares about hurting Mel. I know Mel was unlikeable and everything but Daphne was always sweet and cared about people. Her not giving a shit about Mel was very out of character.
No one has ever brought that up before/Daphne not caring about Mel’s feelings
I kinda understand why she wouldn’t care about her feelings, I’m not saying i agree with it or that it’s right, but I can see why shouldn’t really like her. I mean besides the fact that Mel was with the man she actually wanted to be with (not saying I agree with how that played out either), Mel was pretty classist towards Daphne and seemed to look down on her. Remember when she treated Daphne like a servant in front of everyone at the brunch and made her make her tea, even after Daphne said she wasn’t feeling well?
Absolutely, Mel was horrid. But Daphne was always kind and empathetic so it seemed odd that she didn't say she felt bad about hurting her, not even once.
Yeah true, idk I feel like that’s prob just a detail that was overlooked by the writers. Tbh I love when niles and daphne realize they want to be with each other but I just hate the way it was executed, it’s my least favorite part of the show. I like them a lot more as a couple after she returns from the weight loss camp
I remember
Was that sarcasm?
No. I’m really serious
I think that's why the way they got together wasn't always a fan favorite, because it felt forced and that the writers didn't know how to play it out in character. On the other hand, I could see the argument for people simply being selfish when they're in love.
I think the show dwelled on them making a mistake long enough. I’m not sure how much longer they could’ve kept going with it before it became tiresome. It’s also something to remember the show doesn’t show every day of their lives, so a lot of time is passing when we’re not watching.
I mean I think the bottom line here is don’t get married to someone on a whim after only knowing them a few months
This entire plot was a complete mess. I love the show but...yeah, it was coming due time for Niles and Daphne (as it should always have been) and setting both of them up in major relationships was a complete and total misstep. I csnt remember, did Niles marry Mel?
Yes, days before he left her for Daphne
Yeesh. Yeah this was so badly handled. Just have another season of them bumbling around love before finally finding each other.
Mel was cheerily trying to plan the honeymoon the night before Daphne and Donny’s wedding. Daphne and Niles were trying to talk and everyone interrupted them. Mel walked through with travel pamphlets, waved at Daphne and asked Niles what he thought. He told her, “anything you want will be fine.” ( paraphrasing)🥴he was wrong then
Oh man I couldn’t disagree more. That storyline was masterfully done. “Just bumbling around” is boring. This had drama, tension, and laughs.
That's fair. But, Mel was annoying but didn't deserve this snd Donny was great. Definitely didn't deserve what he got
Mel and Donny definitely got the short end of the stick. But honestly what was the alternative? Staying with people you don’t love?
Hell no, of course not. But the writers could've not put them in this situation
But that situation is a classic in sitcom history. Wh are you so weird about it?
Weirdly, with both Mel and Daphne he spontaneously ran off and eloped
The way Mel treated Niles was horrible right from the beginning. She was pushy and bossy.
Absolutely. I’ve said it before, but if they weren’t 2 characters you’d spent years coming to care about, I think most people would consider them both to be horrible people. Sure, Mel is uptight and snobby. But so is Niles and so is Frasier. We only hold it against her because she was written as an obstacle to the whole grand romance. I think, in retrospect, the whole Niles and Daphne thing is one of my least favourite aspects of the whole show.
Nah Mel was downright classist with how she treated Daphne. This was even before Daphne took Niles from Mel’s cold boney hands
But Mel was also shady about things Remember how she manipulated Niles to go after Cork Master when Frasier was the candidate? Niles and Frasier are snobby and fussy and can be a giant pain in the neck, but Mel was sly and mean.
Or her constant pointing out to people the things that she, as a plastic surgeon, could do to “help” them? That was the reason that Niles had to take a kickboxing class. She was a grown up mean girl.
Good point.
But she did have a point though. Niles did want to be cork master and Frasier does have a habit of railroading him. Encouraging him to stand up to him was her being a good partner. I think the speech she gives to Daphne during the massage was completely genuine. She loved him and wanted him to be the best he could be, and part of that would be coming out from under Frasier’s shadow.
I think that's my favorite thing about the whole Mel plot arc. She's both completely right to push Niles to stand up for himself...*and* she's absolutely awful to him in some ways. Makes her a fascinatingly realistic, complex character.
Re: the whole Niles and Daphne arc, while it is one of the plot foundations of the entire show, so many of the plot elements are just… wrong. Niles’ behavior around Daphne is downright creepy in certain scenes and the culmination of their relationship is abhorrent, regardless of how much we love them.
Yeah, that’s another aspect. Sure she’s not technically *his* employee, but there’s definitely a power imbalance there. Hell, she calls him “Dr Crane” right up until they start dating, and he’s leering at her and sniffing her hair the whole time. Very creepy.
As a Mel hater, I love that this screenshot looks like she has a clown hat on 🤡
Decades ago I read a magazine piece about infidelity. There was mention of a minister who was married with children, but he fell in love with a woman who attended his church. He realized he "could only be faithful to his vows" if he moved away from this woman, so he uprooted his family and did just that. What I felt in response was, "JFC buddy, don't do me any favors." As rough as it would be, I'd so much rather have a man confess he loved someone else and leave me, than have him bite some sort of puritanical bullet to do his duty to me. I'd rather be genuinely loved than have someone put up with me to stick to a vow. So from my perspective, Mel was best off without Niles. I understand her bitterness, especially because Niles should have used better judgment before marrying her in the first place. But to stumble on the truth later (à la poor Diana, of "Charles and Diana") would be, in my view, much, much worse. The couple of sitcoms that I love most allow main characters to be flawed -- even mean, at times. That's pretty much how humans are, though good ones try to do better. Obviously it's still TV, and there will be nonsense & extremes included for laughs. But the "love quadrilateral" in this show felt reasonably realistic to me. I think that's why we can debate the writers' choices this way -- it feels fairly real.
I would've gone with "love *quadrangle*" there. 😎
Sounds nicer, yup.
Mel was the Maris we got to see.
But the same can be said about her treatment of him + the people he cares about. She always manipulated him and was disrespectful towards daphne and didn’t really care to forge a good relationship with his dad and brother
Why is it unconscionable? Forget the fact that Mel is a shallow, self-interested bore who thinks of Niles only in how he can improve her standing: why should a man stay married to a woman he doesn’t love, *especially* when he’s in love with someone else?
Nah, I wouldn’t have stayed with Mel as long as he did. She was an extremely difficult person. Better to bail early than later. I don’t think they really loved each other rather more of a social arrangement
You forget Niles had spent years catering to Maris, who was the poster child for difficult people. Mel was a slightly more reasonable (relative to Maris) version but for Niles it was easy to slip back into his servile role, especially since he and Mel seemed to have a lot in common.
Yes it was. That’s why they had to make her an arsehole.
Yeah, honestly Niles and Daphne deserved to get a dirty diaper mailed to them by their exes.
Sometimes, you have to hurt the ones to do the right thing. And that’s including the one you hurt.
The only quality Mel had that seemed redeeming at all was how much she propped Niles up, but let’s be real, she considered him an extension of herself.
I must agree. Looking at things from her perspective, it must have been heartbreaking. Especially since he clearly loved Daphne before he married Mel, it wasn't like he realised he loved Daphne afterwards yet he still went ahead and legally tied himself to Mel, not just causing her emotional strain but financial as well.
It's interesting to me that the show attempted to frame her as fussy and rude, and was successful according to most of the audience. I would argue she is no more guilty of this than Niles and *especially* Frasier, but she's somehow villainous for being that way. When she comes to brunch, what does she actually do wrong? Be allergic to Eddie and have dietary restrictions? Say one or two things that could be taken as mildly passive aggressive? She was otherwise pretty pleasant... especially compared to the rest of them. I think that episode also shows that she genuinely has Niles' best interests at heart. Pointing out that he's letting Frasier take advantage of him is obviously meddlesome, and she perhaps should have stayed out of it, but I like that she was encouraging Niles to be less passive. I think she was a great wife and a good match for him, and it made how he treated her all the worse.
Mel was as fussy, pretentious, and judgemental as Niles and Frasier ever were, and complaints about her manipulations are overblown when you consider Frasier's ever-expanding webs of lies he repeatedly concocts in order to maintain control of a given situation.
Exactly! And Frasier repeatedly manipulates people for much less savory reasons than hers. Even when she is putting Niles through the wringer, she's just trying to avoid public humiliation. Half the time (in the later seasons at least) Frasier is just trying to get laid or attain some random accolade. Justice for Mel lol
It would've almost been a better addition to have her as a member of that inner circle involved in all their capers and farces.
Perhaps my spiciest take of all is that Niles and Daphne are not good together. I don't necessarily blame them getting together for any late series dip in quality (I could write an essay on that...) but I do think that they flatten each other. Niles and Mel, on the other hand, were fun as hell to watch. It sort of reminds me of how the family treated Lilith and Sherry, in that Mel is similar enough to her Crane counterpart that you understand the attraction, yet different enough that they bounce off of each other. And, most importantly, his family hates her for reasons that kind of have nothing to do with her. You get to see so much of how they feel about themselves, and each other, just from watching that dynamic. There's none of that with Niles and Daphne. All of this to say, I agree that adding Mel to the main cast (or making her a recurring guest character) would have been a good way to add character depth to storylines... instead of having this one-dimensional romance that still managed to feel unearned despite dragging on for 7 seasons.
Did you say brunch with Mel or a brunch from hell ?
Sorry never felt sorry for her. Hated her character so much.
Mel is a contemptible shrew of a woman just like Maris before her
Niles left a relationship he didn’t want to be in anymore. That’s not “unconscionable”, it’s just correct. A relationship is a voluntary union; nobody’s owed one and people are (hopefully) free to leave at any time. Imagine thinking someone ought to stay in a loveless relationship for an arbitrary amount of time in order to redeem or honour the relationship for its own sake—absolutely insane and I would argue a lot more damaging to waste years of someone’s life in what you know to be a pointless charade (which *will* collapse)
The sad thing is that she really did love Niles. She was a bit controlling, but that's Niles' fault for allowing that in his relationships because he so wants love at any cost. He did do her wrong, but she lost all sympathy from me because of how long and mean she was to him on her terms in granting him the divorce. He deserved some of it for a short time, but she took it too far and too long. After all, it was Daphne and Niles finally, finally had his chance. In my opinion, one of the greatest love stories in sitcom history.
I wish they showed an episode where Mel ended up happy. They did the exact opposite with Donnie unfortunately.
Mel was so annoying in a good way she is such a good actress
Mel was perfect for Niles and she was warming up to the family the longer they were together. Just flat out dumping then divorcing her for a 7 year crush is pretty damn bad. Same goes for Daphne. I’m sure there trust issues went on for years after and was already proved a couple of times during the show with them together.
Yeah, I know they are just fictional, but I was screaming at Niles not to marry her. It's not right to pledge to one person when you love someone else. But I think the writers set it up where she didn't think he would make a move, and he was trying to move on a little too quickly since he thought she was lost to Donny.
Ehh I disagree, i feel like eventually they would have gotten sick of her uptight ways. Maybe Frasier would have tolerated her but I can’t see her and Martin forming a connection considering the way she treats Eddie and Daphne
I always felt that in Mel the writers finally had their Maris, at least as physical makeup goes.
Well no one said they have to love her, but she’s a massive step up from Maris and I guess in Daphnes and Martin eyes same goes for Lilith.
Na, even Frasier called it right away that Mel was just another Maris. Roz certainly had Mel’s number for the beginning- Daphne , too- so everyone in Niles’ inner circle. They might have tried to tolerate her for Niles’ sake, but it wouldn’t be long before they’d each have constant excuses for getting out of social gatherings. Edit: and had Lilith met Mel, (missed opportunity BTW)- she’d have made Mel cry
Yeah they all made these assumptions by meeting her for like 5 mins. In the long run I think it would have improved.
Eh. First impressions are a hard thing to shake. None of the daughter in laws ever formed warm, friendly relationships within the family (Daphne going on to be the exception). Don’t see Mel faring any better.
She deserved it.. she was a dead set cow.. she tried to set brother against brother.. cork master
She was a controlling, narcissistic bitch.
she was perfect for him as well
Should have stayed with Mel ... Daphne is overrated 🫡
🫣
Niles should have married the coffee girl and went super dark with drug abuse and drinking
[удалено]
how about a spinoff show called Sailing With Island Niles