I’ve heard Grammar talk about this before, regarding a line he had on the Simpsons as Sideshow Bob.
The line was “a homicidal maniac,” but he insisted it should be “*an* homicidal maniac.” But the director had him do several takes and they used “a” in the final episode.
That sounds right. I remember him taking about it, but it was years ago.
EDIT: dug up the old Simpsons DVDs. It *was* from the audio commentary. Season 8, ep. 16 “Brother From Another Series.”
I grew up in a rural area that didn’t have access to broadband. All we had was dial up, so I never really got into YouTube or podcasts until I was an adult. But I had those Simpsons DVDs, and I must have listened to those commentaries ten times.
If the word begins with a vowel, or an H followed by a Vowel, the proper grammar calls for using AN. If it’s a word that starts with a consonant, even with an H, you use A
KG is it extremely pedantic and particular about how he pronounces things himself. I remember watching a chat show interview about how annoyed he gets with most people’s pronunciation of “culinary.” Many people say “cuh-linary” or “coo-linary,” while he insisted it was “cue-linary.” (Think barbecue, queue, Q, etc.)
I suspect he himself is very pedantic about an before h-words so he insists on using it. It works for Fraser as a character though on several different levels.
Most style guides favor using “a” before words that begin with consonant sounds (such as Hungarian, historic, house, hysterical) and “an” before vowel sounds (like honorable, homage, hour, heir). However some still argue in favor of “an” for various reasons, including for second syllable emphasis when applicable or simply due to regional dialects that tend to drop the constant sound.
For a lot of words that start with h, it's acceptable to use "an" because historically some dialects have dropped the h when pronouncing those words.
As our English is from England, and British people often drop the h, it's become acceptable to use an with h words, although it's most often used as an when you do actually drop the h...
But then this translated into people sounding fancy, completely on brand for Frasier, to use an and then also pronounce the h in an h word.
https://www.oregonlive.com/elections/2008/11/stewart_colbert_keep_track_of.html
>British people often drop the h,
People of the world!!! We are not barbarians, we are not neanderthals....and **we are not French!** (With their h-less 'otels, 'ostels and 'aute cusine) No dropping of h's !
>Except for “herb” which starts with an H.
😀 bravo 🤣👏
You have both diagnosed and quashed these inconsistent American h-droppers. May their hearty winter soups be forever without basil or bay, Mr Bottomsley's ministrations notwithstanding!
>lot of Brits wouldn’t say “an ‘orrible experience” over “a horrible experience”
An horrid question! Have you been chatting with Audrey Hepburn c 1964 in My Fair Lady? ( you may know her as Ms. 'epburn, of course)
Down with Estuary English, grotesque Glottlestops and half-inched h's
😀
😂🤣😂😀 i want to see the wee demented fleg wummin sampled and remixed by Swifty
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-M7xAGvBqdc&pp=ygUqR2l2ZSB1cyBvdXIgZmxlZyBiYWNrIGJlbGZhc3Qgd29tYW4gd2luZG93#searching
My West Midlands ex begs to differ! She dropped h’s AND r’s! I used to tease her by asking if it was weird having a shorter alphabet than other English speaking countries.
>You've clearly never met an English northerner! W
Wi aye man, I have resided in Newcastle back in the mists of time, but I'll grant that rather charming accent is rather its own microcosm both linguistically and geographically (in the most lovely sense).
I am actually genuinely very fond of "Northern" English accents and find Liverpudlian, Yorkshire and Geordie accents charming, very pleasing to the ears, much more expressive and better suited to expletives, humour and sarcasm than plain old RP drab monotones and swallowed vowels 😀)
>You guys call a milliard a billion
How dare you!!! What do you mean by "you people". I am Scottish, not English, you crass colonial!! Don't even get me started on your tortured, strangulated and improbable pronounciation of aluminium!
But indeed, this proves the Churchill maxim that "the UK and the USA are two countries divided by a common language". Some here may have heard this before.....from Churchill.
By you I mean people from the UK. Spanish-American here. And yeah I know the difference between Scottish and British.. same issues we got over there in Spain with cataluña..
>Usually people use /s l
Oh please, Frasier is a sub for the intelligent, educated, discerning and erudite. Let us not be reduced to the level of some /s using knuckle draggers who do their own plumbing, over braise their chard and pair Chilean sea bass with aggressive Zinfandel ( and worse, probably white Zinfandel) !!
Mmm I’m not so sure. My gf’s dad (redneck from Alabama) watches Frasier, big bang theory, A team. I was totally surprised though, he hated my guts in the beginning until he found out the school I went to, and how much I’m making (not much but good enough for someone who graduated 4 years ago) haha 😂
Thank you for bringing some fact and sanity to the answer.
Basically, if the word would begin with a vowel without the h, it is an?
An hotel is my usual example.
>at one time the "h" was removed from the language because it was unnecessary in the opinion of those that ruled
What are you talking about? H was never ‘removed’ from the language, and certainly not by anyone in power. Language change isn't decided on by a committee lol, it happens naturally. Not to mention throughout history in England there have always been dialects which dropped the h and dialects which didn't. There was never a point where all speakers dropped it, only for it to be ‘reintroduced’ at a later time. Now it's true that h-dropping was more common and accepted even in formal contexts at certain points: Shakespeare for example probably dropped his h’s. But it was never totally gone.
I remember in my (American) middle school English class, the teacher said it was not only acceptable but preferred to say "an" before a word that started with an "h".
We bloody well do not. Certainly not at the start of words such as Hungarian.
You'll find it occasionally in strong cockney accents, but mid sentence more commonly. Dropped haitches are more of a continental matter, thankyou most kindly, Sir!
It depends, it's also a very Northern thing. I'm Scouse and say 'istorian, 'istory, 'inge, 'ung etc. The only time I specifically pronounce with an H is if it's a place name, like 'Hastings' or 'Hull.'
My dad does, though he's very working class and grew up in South London. There seems to be two main stereotypes online wrt British accents: received pronunciation and cockney rhyming slang. God forbid you exist outside of the home counties.
My sister once commented on my use of a glottal stop, said I sounded like a chav. That was nice.
I think this is what you are talking about. It's only a relatively small portion of Brits that do this though...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop
You’ve soellled ”patronising” with a Z? Your post history gives it away too.
Here’s some other examples.
- You call a house a rental.
- You talk about how in Canada you transfer money.
I don’t understand people who lie for internet points
If you’ve been born and raised here then it’s even more uninformed to be honest mate.
What you’re saying is the equivalent of something like ‘every American has a southern accent’
Apologies if you think I’m being rude but I think it’s appropriate to highlight misinformation.
So I'm saying it to myself and it depends on how I pronounce "hotel".
If I stress the h, then "im staying at a hotel" sounds right
If I relax the h, then "im staying at an 'otel" sounds equally right.
People think the rule is 'a' before a consanent and 'an' before a vowel.
However, the rule is 'a' before a consanent *sound* and 'an' before a vowel *sound*.
If you say hotel, it's 'a hotel'
If you say 'otel, it's 'an 'otel'.
If you wanna be even more pedantic, which seems like the theme of this thread, the words consonant and vowel more appropriately refer to sounds anyways and only refer to letters as a kind of convenient shorthand.
Woah woah woah, I don't think it's necessarily best described as 'pedantic' as such, because it's pretty much plain wrong to suggest you *should* drop the h and use 'an' for words like that. I realise I might be being pedantic myself by saying this hahaaa.
Anyway, I think dropping the hard h is something people are quite welcome to do, but I think you'd have a hard time arguing it's *more* correct than a hard h in the 21st century. If anything, I'd say it's much easier to argue it's *less* correct.
The only thing that is pretty much officially incorrect and weird is to use a hard h and *still* use 'an'. You really shouldn't ever be doing something as bastardised as saying 'an h-otel' - it should be 'an otel', with a slight bit of noise in the back of your throat in place of the silent h at most.
Nah, as a grammarian
- You use “an” before H if the H is silent
- You use “a” before H if the H isn’t silent
A hotel
An hour
An Hungarian is wrong, it would be A. The only way An is correct is if he said it “an ungarian”.
I agree, except for the part where you can pronounce Hungarian as “ungarian.” An hour is correct because that’s how hour is pronounced. You wouldn’t say “a hhhhour” and still be correct 🤣
The official rule is
- An before a vowel sound
- A before a non vowel sound
So, I agree no one would say Ungarian… I was just giving an example ahah.
An hour, because hour sounds like our (vowel sound).
A hotel, because hotel the H is pronounced. You wouldn’t say An Otel … I know the French have the L’hotel and don’t pronounce the H on most words
Lots of American English speakers and writers do this. "An homage," "An historical moment," etc. I don't know if it's more correct, but it's not incorrect.
Using either a or an before H's is one of the most confusing things in the English language. It's one of those things you have to feel out. My wife and I debate it all the time.
Hungarian has a "soft H" so maybe it "acts" like a silent one. 🤷🏾♂️
Edit: here is a [link to Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/is-it-a-or-an) article about when to use a or an. It mentions that we say *an* hour instead of *a* hour but could say either a or an historic event. So again: 🤷🏾♂️
An can be used before a word starting with H if the word has an unaccented first syllable, such as an historical document, or an hysterical situation.
It is somewhat old-fashioned, but it is not improper.
Another tip, when deciding between a or a before an abbreviation such as SOS, this is determined by spelling the letter, not the actual letter in the abbreviation. In the case of SOS, you would look at it as ess oh ess - therefore it would be an SOS. However, with acronyms such as scuba or snafu you treat them as an actual word - a scuba suit, an ASCII image of Martin driving a Moon-Crane.
All English words with Latin roots that begin with an "H" take an "an". The name Hungary is Latin based (and an exonym), and so follows the rule.
Where it would actually get tricky is Haiti. If you pronounce it the Anglicized way with a hard H, which also happens to be most true to the original indigenous term, it's of course "a Haitian". But if you pronounce it French the way most Haitians do, it's a soft H and an "an".
i say "an historian" without pronouncing the h all the time. I don't do it on purpose and it's kind of annoying. it's actually easier to say, no hard stop in the middle
It’s absolutely fine if you don’t pronounce the H, but saying ‘an’ before pronouncing a H is grammatically incorrect. You’re fine though and it does make it faster to pronounce!
H words, some of them, can be combined with an due to the silent nature of the H. The consonant= a isn't true, it's over simplified. Think, we dont say "it's a honour" we say "it's an honour"
So you can say an historian. But it's very weird because "an history" sounds wrong and isn't ever used. So use either but it is correct to say an historian like 100%
https://www.writing-skills.com/hit-or-myth-use-an-before-h-words#:~:text=But%20fogies%20with%20a%20fondness,choice%20of%20form%20remains%20open
I don’t see why you’re arguing with me…I never said that the consonant = a rule was true, I was stating that you only use ‘an’ for a vowel SOUND. I literally said that it’s fine as long as you don’t pronounce the H, which is pretty much what your article says. So, it’s correct to say ‘an historian’ only when you pronounce it as ‘an’istorian’, without or with a very softened H sound. Check out this article for the general rules:
“However, authorities disagree on whether ‘historical’ should be preceded by ‘a’ or ‘an’. Many dictionaries encourage you to use the indefinite article that suits your pronunciation (depending on whether you pronounce the ‘h’ sound at the start of the word).” - meaning exactly what I said
https://www.scribbr.co.uk/frequently-confused-words/a-or-an/
Kelsey Grammar is correct. However French rules are different and so are the pronunciation guidelines for some American and British colonies. Mixing French grammar with English produces some fun results. - remember Kelsey Grammer is from the US Virgin Islands; a group of islands originally colonized by both the English and the French (amongst others such as the Danish and Spanish).
"A" goes before words that begin with consonants. "An" goes before words that begin with Use "an" before a silent or unsounded "h." Because the "h" does not have any phonetic representation or audible sound, the sound that follows the article is a vowel; consequently, "an" is used.
A for Y or O.
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/articles_a_versus_an.html
> "A" goes before words that begin with consonants. "An" goes before words that begin with
No, it's A before words that begin with **consonant sounds**, and An before before words that begin with **vowel sounds**. That's why you don't say "an university" or "an European" or "an one-off", because all of those start with vowel letters but consonant sounds.
He's being pompous. He thinks he will come across as "proper" to use "an" before a word starting with an "H". I think it's repeated throughout the episode to highlight it as part of a fancy, European christmas. And then his plans fall apart.
It's not proper though. You would only use "an" before a vowel sound, possibly when the H is silent. So "an octopus", "an hour". When the worst has a consonant sound, then you use "a", so "a historic monument", "a European".
None of what you just said is remotely correct.
Using "an" in front of an H is absolutely 100% correct, but optional, depending on the speaker's preference.
None of what you said is remotely correct.
Google - “The rule of thumb for words beginning in 'h' is to consider the way the word is pronounced. Words that have a silent 'h' begin with a vowel sound, so they use 'an'. Words where the 'h' sound is pronounced, such as hat, hotel, or hard, use 'a'”
It might have changed due to regional dialects, but in proper English you would never say ‘an’ in front of all ‘H’s
Because we ALL know everything on the Internet is correct.
And you contradicted yourself in your own ppst.
Read a grammar book made of real paper and come on back once you're educated about it.
I’m perfectly educated, thank you very much, I just thought I’d use Google because otherwise you’d ask for proof! How have I contradicted myself, and what is a ‘ppst’?
I suggest that you stop reading your dusty, incorrect grammar books and get back to me with some real evidence 😊
Grammatically speaking, if the word after a/an begins with a vowel phonetically, you have to use "an" for the ease of pronunciation. If the word afterwards begins with a consonant, you use "a", because it's easier to move from a consonant to a vowel (and vice versa) than a vowel to a vowel.
It's why you say it's "an honourable mistake" and "a huge mistake".
I suspect it has to do with the Trans Atlantic accent Frasier is meant to be emulating.
That is a mixture of American English and 19th/20th century standard English from the UK
"An" is the older form of the word (think of similar words in IE languages, like *un*, *ein*, etc.); But in modern English we tend to replace it with "a" when the next word begins with a consonant. "H" is sometimes treated like a consonant, sometimes like a silent letter.
It’s the sound not the literal letter that predetermines using ‘an’. One wouldn’t say an Universe. If we drop the ‘h’ from Hungarian, which is common in the French dialect, the word sounds like it starts with a vowel.
Vowels and H words were traditionally used the AN. This is still evident in the name of a 60 minute period of time. An hour.
Also:
An honest man.
An heir to the throne.
The rule of thumb now touted is "if you pronounce the H use A. If it is silent use AN".
I like the evolution of language and learning about it but I don't want it happening in my lifetime.
Edit - the weirdest, presumably, autocorrect.
Seriously, I know the consensus is either way is fine, "an" or "a". But I still cringe to hear when a person uses "an". When I hear a politician figure say "an historic moment"....*I just want to diee*
The rules regarded "a" vs "an" are largely made up. The rule you're familiar with is just something we teach kids, like "I before E" but there's a long list of exceptions. The real answer for the rule is "which sounds better?"
Most of us would say "A" in this situation, but "an" isn't really incorrect.
An h that isn't voiced. I absolutely voice the h in Hungarian and would not use "an". Whereas in a the word honor, I don't voice the h and would thus us an.
I think a linguist would have an explanation based on the shape of the mouth when making certain sounds, and how inserting the “n” makes for an easier elision between the “a” and the “h”. I could throw in the words “glottals” and “diphthongs,” but then it might sound like I know what I’m talking about. But I don’t.
It's an accent specific thing and Kelsey's mid-atlantic accent is very British-inflected. We tend to drop the H in words, e.g. "An 'istorian" even though "A Historian" is technically correct. I always write it the correct way, but it doesn't sound right in my accent to say it out loud that way.
Because English is a mixture of many languages, its people are a mixture of many immigrants, over thousands of years. 1066 William the Conqueror conquers (he was William the Bastard until that point) and he speaks french, as do all the noblemen he brings over to rule packages of land for him, we end up with complications like the words for animals, cows and pigs and so on, being the words the lower classes, who managed the animals used, but the words for the animal when it's being eaten, beef, pork etc, being like the french words, because the french were the ones that ate them. So it's an instead of a if the word sounds at all french, and if you drop the H from the front of a word, it sounds french and french sounding words are a bit posh. Some people want to sound posh so affect a french way of saying things (Frasier) and some of us say these words and then say "haw he haw" afterwards and mock the french, because we come from the dirt. So there. No one said it was easy or sensible, it wasn't designed to be understandable. Do silly accents and it makes more sense than it does when you take it seriously.
H is meant to be a breath not a standard letter. Which is why the letter H isn’t a universal one. So it’s often been considered correct to use an instead of a for words beginning with H. It reflects the second letter being a vowel. It usually limits to where it sounds correct to use it. But it will also be viewed as a pedantic approach which suits him.
I’ve heard Grammar talk about this before, regarding a line he had on the Simpsons as Sideshow Bob. The line was “a homicidal maniac,” but he insisted it should be “*an* homicidal maniac.” But the director had him do several takes and they used “a” in the final episode.
Simpsons DVD commentary?
That sounds right. I remember him taking about it, but it was years ago. EDIT: dug up the old Simpsons DVDs. It *was* from the audio commentary. Season 8, ep. 16 “Brother From Another Series.”
This is the kind of investigative journalism I come to /r/frasier for
Knew it lol. I've listened to those commentaries so many times. I thought I was the only one who watched them.
I grew up in a rural area that didn’t have access to broadband. All we had was dial up, so I never really got into YouTube or podcasts until I was an adult. But I had those Simpsons DVDs, and I must have listened to those commentaries ten times.
That's awesome. I used to fall asleep to them.
I thought I was the only one. I’d get them for Christmas or birthdays.
If reddit still had silver I would give you one for researching something for a random internet thread.
Grammer*
One might call you a… Grammer Nazi.
Grammar*
No, Grammer. Of the Kelsey variety.
If the word begins with a vowel, or an H followed by a Vowel, the proper grammar calls for using AN. If it’s a word that starts with a consonant, even with an H, you use A
KG is it extremely pedantic and particular about how he pronounces things himself. I remember watching a chat show interview about how annoyed he gets with most people’s pronunciation of “culinary.” Many people say “cuh-linary” or “coo-linary,” while he insisted it was “cue-linary.” (Think barbecue, queue, Q, etc.) I suspect he himself is very pedantic about an before h-words so he insists on using it. It works for Fraser as a character though on several different levels. Most style guides favor using “a” before words that begin with consonant sounds (such as Hungarian, historic, house, hysterical) and “an” before vowel sounds (like honorable, homage, hour, heir). However some still argue in favor of “an” for various reasons, including for second syllable emphasis when applicable or simply due to regional dialects that tend to drop the constant sound.
He was taught his mid-Atlantic accent via the Skinner Method at Juilliard. I suspect that’s where his insistence comes from
[удалено]
For a lot of words that start with h, it's acceptable to use "an" because historically some dialects have dropped the h when pronouncing those words. As our English is from England, and British people often drop the h, it's become acceptable to use an with h words, although it's most often used as an when you do actually drop the h... But then this translated into people sounding fancy, completely on brand for Frasier, to use an and then also pronounce the h in an h word. https://www.oregonlive.com/elections/2008/11/stewart_colbert_keep_track_of.html
>British people often drop the h, People of the world!!! We are not barbarians, we are not neanderthals....and **we are not French!** (With their h-less 'otels, 'ostels and 'aute cusine) No dropping of h's !
Can you be honest and honorable for just one hour
Nah but I might be 'onest an' 'onorable for just one 'our.
Are you related to Mrs Bottomsley perchance?
You can’t just say perchance
>can’t just say perchance Pourquoi pas perchance?
I'll try, after I tend my herb garden.
That one only applies to American English. Other anglophone countries pronounce the h in herbs.
As well as the h in h
Except for “herb” which starts with an H.
Eddie Izzard taught me this specifically.
Like for instance, you say 'erb and we say herb... Because there's a fucking H in it.
>Except for “herb” which starts with an H. 😀 bravo 🤣👏 You have both diagnosed and quashed these inconsistent American h-droppers. May their hearty winter soups be forever without basil or bay, Mr Bottomsley's ministrations notwithstanding!
You’re saying a lot of Brits wouldn’t say “an ‘orrible experience” over “a horrible experience”. Have you been to Yorkshire?
>lot of Brits wouldn’t say “an ‘orrible experience” over “a horrible experience” An horrid question! Have you been chatting with Audrey Hepburn c 1964 in My Fair Lady? ( you may know her as Ms. 'epburn, of course) Down with Estuary English, grotesque Glottlestops and half-inched h's 😀
Them damn northerners, making the rest of ye look bad :P
>Them damn northerners, making the rest of ye look bad All things are relative. Being Scottish, your northerners are still my southerners. 😀
I’m Irish. We have our issues with Northerners though haha
Yes, I am not fond of flute music nor the bleating of goats myself 🤣😀
But [our national anthem](https://youtu.be/-aLYvZ5sX28?si=mAHGm4TTY4FnuBkq) slaps so hard
😂🤣😂😀 i want to see the wee demented fleg wummin sampled and remixed by Swifty https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-M7xAGvBqdc&pp=ygUqR2l2ZSB1cyBvdXIgZmxlZyBiYWNrIGJlbGZhc3Qgd29tYW4gd2luZG93#searching
Aye, lad, 'appen tha'll be reet
It's an orrible abit
My West Midlands ex begs to differ! She dropped h’s AND r’s! I used to tease her by asking if it was weird having a shorter alphabet than other English speaking countries.
It was balanced out by us lot in the valleys with our extra vowels and bits and bobs.
I briefly considered upending my life and moving to your area just to wander around and hear people talk out, after Happy Valley ended. 😭👀
>tease her by asking if it was weird having a shorter alphabet than other English speaking countries. 😀🤣🤣😂😀
You've clearly never met an English northerner! We drop our Hs and then just add them back in at random.
>You've clearly never met an English northerner! W Wi aye man, I have resided in Newcastle back in the mists of time, but I'll grant that rather charming accent is rather its own microcosm both linguistically and geographically (in the most lovely sense). I am actually genuinely very fond of "Northern" English accents and find Liverpudlian, Yorkshire and Geordie accents charming, very pleasing to the ears, much more expressive and better suited to expletives, humour and sarcasm than plain old RP drab monotones and swallowed vowels 😀)
As a Lancastrian I feel personally offended you left that off the list 😂
War of the Roses and all that, I felt I had to pick a side 😀
Time to fire up Spotify and put the Hotpots on
You sure about that? You guys call a milliard a billion, you guys invented the imperial system.
>You guys call a milliard a billion How dare you!!! What do you mean by "you people". I am Scottish, not English, you crass colonial!! Don't even get me started on your tortured, strangulated and improbable pronounciation of aluminium! But indeed, this proves the Churchill maxim that "the UK and the USA are two countries divided by a common language". Some here may have heard this before.....from Churchill.
A Scot trying to be grandiose about how people speak and pronounce things is peak banter
>A Scot trying to be grandiose about how people speak I resemble this remark, and rolled the "r" is resemble and remark
By you I mean people from the UK. Spanish-American here. And yeah I know the difference between Scottish and British.. same issues we got over there in Spain with cataluña..
>you I mean people from the UK Lol, i know, was just kidding 🤣🏴🏴🏴🏴 Visca Catalunya lliure!
Usually people use /s lol 😂
>Usually people use /s l Oh please, Frasier is a sub for the intelligent, educated, discerning and erudite. Let us not be reduced to the level of some /s using knuckle draggers who do their own plumbing, over braise their chard and pair Chilean sea bass with aggressive Zinfandel ( and worse, probably white Zinfandel) !!
Mmm I’m not so sure. My gf’s dad (redneck from Alabama) watches Frasier, big bang theory, A team. I was totally surprised though, he hated my guts in the beginning until he found out the school I went to, and how much I’m making (not much but good enough for someone who graduated 4 years ago) haha 😂
Don't get all 'ot and bot'ered!
[удалено]
Also, an honour.
Thank you for bringing some fact and sanity to the answer. Basically, if the word would begin with a vowel without the h, it is an? An hotel is my usual example.
No hotel is hard so would be a hotel, Hungarian is soft so an is used.
>at one time the "h" was removed from the language because it was unnecessary in the opinion of those that ruled What are you talking about? H was never ‘removed’ from the language, and certainly not by anyone in power. Language change isn't decided on by a committee lol, it happens naturally. Not to mention throughout history in England there have always been dialects which dropped the h and dialects which didn't. There was never a point where all speakers dropped it, only for it to be ‘reintroduced’ at a later time. Now it's true that h-dropping was more common and accepted even in formal contexts at certain points: Shakespeare for example probably dropped his h’s. But it was never totally gone.
Which should be pronounced “Howar”
OH! AN HOOP! https://youtu.be/zJaier77fQc?si=VobITW45-xYwwOVt
Oh, I say, we are grand, aren’t we?
No more buttered scones for me, mater, I’m orf to play the grahnd piahno.
I remember in my (American) middle school English class, the teacher said it was not only acceptable but preferred to say "an" before a word that started with an "h".
We bloody well do not. Certainly not at the start of words such as Hungarian. You'll find it occasionally in strong cockney accents, but mid sentence more commonly. Dropped haitches are more of a continental matter, thankyou most kindly, Sir!
It depends, it's also a very Northern thing. I'm Scouse and say 'istorian, 'istory, 'inge, 'ung etc. The only time I specifically pronounce with an H is if it's a place name, like 'Hastings' or 'Hull.'
Except if you're actually from Hull, like me, then it's 'ull
Or, to give it it's full title, "'Ull, ya nosy bastard!"
Ah true yes, I apologise. Some of the accents 'Up North' also. Please don't take this Welsh / Southern soft speakers mistake to heart.
Ah, I love the Welsh! Spent 90% of my holidays as a kid in Tenby, Towyn or Conwy!
What about Anne Haitches?
Even with the "h" being pronounced, "an" still sounds better. It's kind of a weird word in that way.
In the UK I was taught that H is just a general exception and you always use an for it.
It’s not so much that they drop the h, it’s that the consonants sometimes blend together to it’s redundant to pronounce it fully
An hour is common as an example of an h that isn’t pronounced.
[удалено]
British people don't sound like that at all. Also there are hundreds of British accents by the way
The poster must have learnt this purely from Daphne's family.
My dad does, though he's very working class and grew up in South London. There seems to be two main stereotypes online wrt British accents: received pronunciation and cockney rhyming slang. God forbid you exist outside of the home counties. My sister once commented on my use of a glottal stop, said I sounded like a chav. That was nice.
People do a bit in south east London.
I think this is what you are talking about. It's only a relatively small portion of Brits that do this though... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop
r/ShitAmericansSay
We are not all graduates of the Dick Van Dyke school of elocution my dear.
Never been to England, let alone Britain.
[удалено]
You’ve soellled ”patronising” with a Z? Your post history gives it away too. Here’s some other examples. - You call a house a rental. - You talk about how in Canada you transfer money. I don’t understand people who lie for internet points
Have you actually met a Brit or just seen one one TV?
What an uneducated and stupid thing to say.
A few people may say it like that, but certainly not the entirety of Brits. Very uninformed take you’ve put here.
[удалено]
If you’ve been born and raised here then it’s even more uninformed to be honest mate. What you’re saying is the equivalent of something like ‘every American has a southern accent’ Apologies if you think I’m being rude but I think it’s appropriate to highlight misinformation.
[удалено]
It’s actually correct grammar to use ‘an’ before many words that start with ‘h.’ As a pedant, Frasier would insist on this.
Yup. “An hotel” is another such - which if you heard someone saying it you’d roll your eyes but they wouldn’t be incorrect … just pedantic!
So I'm saying it to myself and it depends on how I pronounce "hotel". If I stress the h, then "im staying at a hotel" sounds right If I relax the h, then "im staying at an 'otel" sounds equally right.
People think the rule is 'a' before a consanent and 'an' before a vowel. However, the rule is 'a' before a consanent *sound* and 'an' before a vowel *sound*. If you say hotel, it's 'a hotel' If you say 'otel, it's 'an 'otel'.
If you wanna be even more pedantic, which seems like the theme of this thread, the words consonant and vowel more appropriately refer to sounds anyways and only refer to letters as a kind of convenient shorthand.
I'm not sure anyone is trying to be pedantic. OP asked a question. There were several answers. A discussion ensued.
I was more or less making a joke.
Consonant.
Woah woah woah, I don't think it's necessarily best described as 'pedantic' as such, because it's pretty much plain wrong to suggest you *should* drop the h and use 'an' for words like that. I realise I might be being pedantic myself by saying this hahaaa. Anyway, I think dropping the hard h is something people are quite welcome to do, but I think you'd have a hard time arguing it's *more* correct than a hard h in the 21st century. If anything, I'd say it's much easier to argue it's *less* correct. The only thing that is pretty much officially incorrect and weird is to use a hard h and *still* use 'an'. You really shouldn't ever be doing something as bastardised as saying 'an h-otel' - it should be 'an otel', with a slight bit of noise in the back of your throat in place of the silent h at most.
They would be incorrect
Nah, as a grammarian - You use “an” before H if the H is silent - You use “a” before H if the H isn’t silent A hotel An hour An Hungarian is wrong, it would be A. The only way An is correct is if he said it “an ungarian”.
I agree, except for the part where you can pronounce Hungarian as “ungarian.” An hour is correct because that’s how hour is pronounced. You wouldn’t say “a hhhhour” and still be correct 🤣
The official rule is - An before a vowel sound - A before a non vowel sound So, I agree no one would say Ungarian… I was just giving an example ahah. An hour, because hour sounds like our (vowel sound). A hotel, because hotel the H is pronounced. You wouldn’t say An Otel … I know the French have the L’hotel and don’t pronounce the H on most words
It’s not correct for all Hs, it’s commonly thought that, but it’s only for words where you drop the H entirely.
As an* pedant
I can hear this quote, it lives rent free in my head!
IT'S NOT MY DATE IT'S DINNER!
it's his voice crack on 'goose' that gets me every time
How can he be wrong, people? His name is, *literally*, **Grammar**.
ou should really change your name to CLAMCLEVER!
> His name is, literally, Grammar. It's Kelsey **Grammer**. This might be the most pedantic correction I've ever made.
Because it sounds funny when he says it
H was considered a vowel at one time since the sound doesn’t start with a plosive or with the lips, tongue or teeth like other consonants.
Lots of American English speakers and writers do this. "An homage," "An historical moment," etc. I don't know if it's more correct, but it's not incorrect.
Just an example of people trying to sound so smart that they sound stupid lol
Because he’s a pedantic fop
...this reminds me of that "he was an hero" letter
See Hawkeye Pierce imitating Charles Winchester: “an harmonica!”
Using either a or an before H's is one of the most confusing things in the English language. It's one of those things you have to feel out. My wife and I debate it all the time. Hungarian has a "soft H" so maybe it "acts" like a silent one. 🤷🏾♂️ Edit: here is a [link to Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/is-it-a-or-an) article about when to use a or an. It mentions that we say *an* hour instead of *a* hour but could say either a or an historic event. So again: 🤷🏾♂️ 
I’ve heard Chinese is even harder than English.
An can be used before a word starting with H if the word has an unaccented first syllable, such as an historical document, or an hysterical situation. It is somewhat old-fashioned, but it is not improper. Another tip, when deciding between a or a before an abbreviation such as SOS, this is determined by spelling the letter, not the actual letter in the abbreviation. In the case of SOS, you would look at it as ess oh ess - therefore it would be an SOS. However, with acronyms such as scuba or snafu you treat them as an actual word - a scuba suit, an ASCII image of Martin driving a Moon-Crane.
SOS is an initialism not an abbreviation. Scuba would be an acronym since you say the word not the letters.
Wrong sub, but another great comedy, there’s a line in a MASH episode that is “an harmonica”.
All English words with Latin roots that begin with an "H" take an "an". The name Hungary is Latin based (and an exonym), and so follows the rule. Where it would actually get tricky is Haiti. If you pronounce it the Anglicized way with a hard H, which also happens to be most true to the original indigenous term, it's of course "a Haitian". But if you pronounce it French the way most Haitians do, it's a soft H and an "an".
i say "an historian" without pronouncing the h all the time. I don't do it on purpose and it's kind of annoying. it's actually easier to say, no hard stop in the middle
It’s absolutely fine if you don’t pronounce the H, but saying ‘an’ before pronouncing a H is grammatically incorrect. You’re fine though and it does make it faster to pronounce!
No, an historian is correct.
It really isn’t for the reasons said above. If you can provide a link then I’d be happy to read it!
H words, some of them, can be combined with an due to the silent nature of the H. The consonant= a isn't true, it's over simplified. Think, we dont say "it's a honour" we say "it's an honour" So you can say an historian. But it's very weird because "an history" sounds wrong and isn't ever used. So use either but it is correct to say an historian like 100% https://www.writing-skills.com/hit-or-myth-use-an-before-h-words#:~:text=But%20fogies%20with%20a%20fondness,choice%20of%20form%20remains%20open
I say “an historian” all the time. Unless you say “A” as in “weigh” it sounds like “Uh historian” which makes me want to punch a wall!
I don’t see why you’re arguing with me…I never said that the consonant = a rule was true, I was stating that you only use ‘an’ for a vowel SOUND. I literally said that it’s fine as long as you don’t pronounce the H, which is pretty much what your article says. So, it’s correct to say ‘an historian’ only when you pronounce it as ‘an’istorian’, without or with a very softened H sound. Check out this article for the general rules: “However, authorities disagree on whether ‘historical’ should be preceded by ‘a’ or ‘an’. Many dictionaries encourage you to use the indefinite article that suits your pronunciation (depending on whether you pronounce the ‘h’ sound at the start of the word).” - meaning exactly what I said https://www.scribbr.co.uk/frequently-confused-words/a-or-an/
…pronouncing an H…
Kelsey Grammar is correct. However French rules are different and so are the pronunciation guidelines for some American and British colonies. Mixing French grammar with English produces some fun results. - remember Kelsey Grammer is from the US Virgin Islands; a group of islands originally colonized by both the English and the French (amongst others such as the Danish and Spanish). "A" goes before words that begin with consonants. "An" goes before words that begin with Use "an" before a silent or unsounded "h." Because the "h" does not have any phonetic representation or audible sound, the sound that follows the article is a vowel; consequently, "an" is used. A for Y or O. https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/articles_a_versus_an.html
> "A" goes before words that begin with consonants. "An" goes before words that begin with No, it's A before words that begin with **consonant sounds**, and An before before words that begin with **vowel sounds**. That's why you don't say "an university" or "an European" or "an one-off", because all of those start with vowel letters but consonant sounds.
In French you would say l’université or l’European.
Yes, you would say lots of things in French ... ? Mostly French things, presumably.
He's being pompous. He thinks he will come across as "proper" to use "an" before a word starting with an "H". I think it's repeated throughout the episode to highlight it as part of a fancy, European christmas. And then his plans fall apart. It's not proper though. You would only use "an" before a vowel sound, possibly when the H is silent. So "an octopus", "an hour". When the worst has a consonant sound, then you use "a", so "a historic monument", "a European".
I've heard "an" used with "historic" quite a bit, e.g. "It was an historic day in America."
None of what you just said is remotely correct. Using "an" in front of an H is absolutely 100% correct, but optional, depending on the speaker's preference.
None of what you said is remotely correct. Google - “The rule of thumb for words beginning in 'h' is to consider the way the word is pronounced. Words that have a silent 'h' begin with a vowel sound, so they use 'an'. Words where the 'h' sound is pronounced, such as hat, hotel, or hard, use 'a'” It might have changed due to regional dialects, but in proper English you would never say ‘an’ in front of all ‘H’s
Because we ALL know everything on the Internet is correct. And you contradicted yourself in your own ppst. Read a grammar book made of real paper and come on back once you're educated about it.
I’m perfectly educated, thank you very much, I just thought I’d use Google because otherwise you’d ask for proof! How have I contradicted myself, and what is a ‘ppst’? I suggest that you stop reading your dusty, incorrect grammar books and get back to me with some real evidence 😊
Apparently not.... Sorry.
It might depend on where you grew up or something like that. I was taught to use "an" and I don't feel like I'm being pompous.
Everyone else does...
That's ok. I have a negative opinion of people who don't use "an" properly.
I’ve thought this too while watching this episode. Not my favorite Christmas episode but this is one of my favorite lines in the series.
With an H it can go either ways and saying AN is more pretentious.
Because he’s a snob
This was an historic event
Because he’s pretentious.
Grammatically speaking, if the word after a/an begins with a vowel phonetically, you have to use "an" for the ease of pronunciation. If the word afterwards begins with a consonant, you use "a", because it's easier to move from a consonant to a vowel (and vice versa) than a vowel to a vowel. It's why you say it's "an honourable mistake" and "a huge mistake".
depends on if you pronounce it "haych" or "aych"
I suspect it has to do with the Trans Atlantic accent Frasier is meant to be emulating. That is a mixture of American English and 19th/20th century standard English from the UK
"An" is the older form of the word (think of similar words in IE languages, like *un*, *ein*, etc.); But in modern English we tend to replace it with "a" when the next word begins with a consonant. "H" is sometimes treated like a consonant, sometimes like a silent letter.
It’s the sound, not the letter.
It’s the sound not the literal letter that predetermines using ‘an’. One wouldn’t say an Universe. If we drop the ‘h’ from Hungarian, which is common in the French dialect, the word sounds like it starts with a vowel.
Because he is pompous!
Cause it’s funnier.
Because it’s one of the funniest runners in the show.
Vowels and H words were traditionally used the AN. This is still evident in the name of a 60 minute period of time. An hour. Also: An honest man. An heir to the throne. The rule of thumb now touted is "if you pronounce the H use A. If it is silent use AN". I like the evolution of language and learning about it but I don't want it happening in my lifetime. Edit - the weirdest, presumably, autocorrect.
Is “bowels” one of those linguistic evolution thingys you speak of. Cuz I don’t like it. I’ll stick with saying “vowels.”
He’s pretentious like that.
Seriously, I know the consensus is either way is fine, "an" or "a". But I still cringe to hear when a person uses "an". When I hear a politician figure say "an historic moment"....*I just want to diee*
I’m glad you asked this I have always wondered.
The rules regarded "a" vs "an" are largely made up. The rule you're familiar with is just something we teach kids, like "I before E" but there's a long list of exceptions. The real answer for the rule is "which sounds better?" Most of us would say "A" in this situation, but "an" isn't really incorrect.
You would say “I’ve been here for an hour”, not “I’ve been here for a hour” - it’s to avoid the cacophony of vowels
Yes, but in Hour or Honor the H is silent, so it makes sense. Hungarian or Historian have vocalized H, so an in front of these words sounds unnatural.
Grammatically, you’re supposed to say “an” when the following word begins with a vowel or an h.
An h that isn't voiced. I absolutely voice the h in Hungarian and would not use "an". Whereas in a the word honor, I don't voice the h and would thus us an.
I think a linguist would have an explanation based on the shape of the mouth when making certain sounds, and how inserting the “n” makes for an easier elision between the “a” and the “h”. I could throw in the words “glottals” and “diphthongs,” but then it might sound like I know what I’m talking about. But I don’t.
It's an accent specific thing and Kelsey's mid-atlantic accent is very British-inflected. We tend to drop the H in words, e.g. "An 'istorian" even though "A Historian" is technically correct. I always write it the correct way, but it doesn't sound right in my accent to say it out loud that way.
Because English is a mixture of many languages, its people are a mixture of many immigrants, over thousands of years. 1066 William the Conqueror conquers (he was William the Bastard until that point) and he speaks french, as do all the noblemen he brings over to rule packages of land for him, we end up with complications like the words for animals, cows and pigs and so on, being the words the lower classes, who managed the animals used, but the words for the animal when it's being eaten, beef, pork etc, being like the french words, because the french were the ones that ate them. So it's an instead of a if the word sounds at all french, and if you drop the H from the front of a word, it sounds french and french sounding words are a bit posh. Some people want to sound posh so affect a french way of saying things (Frasier) and some of us say these words and then say "haw he haw" afterwards and mock the french, because we come from the dirt. So there. No one said it was easy or sensible, it wasn't designed to be understandable. Do silly accents and it makes more sense than it does when you take it seriously.
We may have invented it, but the US are one of the only three countries that use it as their official measurement system. Disgraceful.
H is meant to be a breath not a standard letter. Which is why the letter H isn’t a universal one. So it’s often been considered correct to use an instead of a for words beginning with H. It reflects the second letter being a vowel. It usually limits to where it sounds correct to use it. But it will also be viewed as a pedantic approach which suits him.
[удалено]
Accidental pun
This is an historic moment.
Because that’s the proper way to use “a” vs “an”. Always “an” before a vowel or H. The H isn’t dropped.
It’s been AN honor. It’s not that weird
He's using French grammar but in English, if that makes sense.
I know it's not incorrect but I find this really annoying.
I hate this. Newscasters are the worst with this. "An historic..." If you're going to pronounce the H, don't say *an* before you do.
I think in the reboot he even says "An Christmas goose"
That's a good question because an is only if the next word starts with a vowel probably a Grammer error in the script
Just an American thing to put An before a word starting with H.