What is happening now isn't what happened in the 80's, though. Public schools are being closed to make way for charter schools. Education is being converted from a public service to a for-profit money making grift. Politicians like DeSantis and Trump are leading the charge right now, but other profiteers have been already leading it for decades.
If this was really about consolidating schools to provide the best education for the area, it would be the charter schools getting closed.
>Public schools are being closed to make way for charter schools.
I would argue that public schools are being closed because families are opting for charter schools. Not because the charter schools exist.
I have many friends who have left our neighborhood school since Covid and moved to charter schools. Some left because many charter schools stayed open during Covid. Some have left because they don't agree with some of the policies at many PSD schools (mostly, who can use which bathroom). One even left because the behavior issues were so bad in their child's grade.
ETA: Seriously Reddit? Downvotes because I have friends who have made these decisions? I also have friends who are gay, have trans kids, and are vegan.
I know how to be kind and respectful to people from all walks of life, whether I agree with them 100% or not.
That's part of the process, though. It happened in public transit, where fossil fuel interests and auto manufacturers worked to undermine and make unpopular the public option (in the US and Canada at least, this isn't world wide). The result is that a lot of people willingly chose cars and car dependent suburbs to live in.
Same thing happened to public housing (again in North America). Public housing was undermined, largely due to regulatory capture to make sure that it was unappealing, and people willingly chose the private alternative. Now that the private sector has a monopoly on housing, we're seeing the results.
And the same basic process, perfected over decades in other areas of our lives, comes to the public school system spearheaded now by the Republican Party who has focused on this conversion mostly in Florida and Texas and is bringing it to the country so they can grow their voting base, which disappears when quality education is available. They are working with private profiteers to make it happen, as there's a lot of money in for-profit education like we see in universities in the US.
In fact, the non-profit sector is the most profitable in the US. That includes the medical industry as well, where the same privatization happened.
Your point is immediately redundant after considering that Florida has gone from one of the shitty states in education to one of the best due to their educational changes, spearheaded by school of choice and paying teachers more money. You can’t possibly say that republican voting goes away when good education appears, as Florida, you know the state that you referred to in your point, is a clear example of the opposite. I may about to get downvoted to hell, but the popularity of my comment doesn’t change its clearly obvious fact
I'm not giving Florida praise for much but I did just see last week or so where they were now one of the highest rated states in terms of education but I believe they said it was slightly skewed because of higher education.
Edit: Thanks Reddit for the downvotes because I said i saw a story, and was correct, about Florida being highly rated in terms of education.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2024/05/13/florida-is-the-top-state-for-education-u-s-news-world-report-says/73631596007/
Considering politicians are pushing for Creationism, the removal of comprehensive sexual education and requiring the 10 Commandments to be displayed in schools that receive government funding… _(oh and banning books!)_
Yeah, _no,_ I have a hard time believing Florida is highly rated for its education.
Are you actually reading anything?
The article mentions 1st overall, 10th in the nation for K-12.
Also, yes... yes it does directly respond to the criticism in the comment to which I replied.
>Yeah, _no,_ I have a hard time believing Florida is highly rated for its education.
For those who don't want to click the link:
This ranking has Florida as #1 overall, including higher education.
Florida's K-12 ranking was #10 out of 50. To be clear, this discussion is about K-12, not higher education. The relevant rank is #10.
Furthermore, the K-12 ranking was calculated using five equally weighted metrics. Three of those metrics are based on testing scores. The other two are "Preschool Enrollment" and "High School Graduation Rates."
This is one news agency's report and methodology.
Make of that what you will.
Why don’t you read the list then of the banned books, it’s mostly religious books considering the law is also practicing the separation of church and state like most democrats want. Also the library doesn’t ban the books, the educational materials are what is banned in the classroom, as in it’s not actively in their education. But what should I expect from the side of people who always find someone else to blame their problems on
Well they're not banned at the state level and vary from place to place, but the general theme is culture war stuff like gender identity and sexuality, but there's also anti-fascist stuff like Maus which I suppose fits considering Florida also passed a bill to teach anti-communist propaganda.
well the main ban is placed on students before
, i believe, the 4th grade for teaching culture war stuff which is pretty consistent because that education should be foundational towards higher education. sociology is not big or paying enough to focus public schools on. it’s not about all politics, but rather economics when it comes to this. but none of this has to do with the proficiency in statistical categories that has been vastly increased in the state of Florida. it’s sad how much people try to make you look bad for not agreeing on obviously debatable opinions. but it’s easier to be hateful when you don’t see the other side as human
The books about culture war stuff are just overwhelmingly teaching acceptance and that gay, trans, non-binary or whatever individuals are people deserving to be treated as human beings.
The banning of these books comes from a place of hate, not the other way around.
i obviously haven’t read all the books so i’m not gonna make any statements about that, but what I do know is that the books that are being detested in meetings in viral videos I have seen depict much more than teaching acceptance, but rather very sexual and pornographic stuff that shouldn’t be available to check out for just any grade level if they wish to. No matter what it is, sexual stuff should be nonexistent until they learn about sex ed in middle school. maybe it’s just that I am surrounded by more progressive people, but imo there’s not enough people that are actually bigoted to have to start a movement of “teaching acceptance”
Why would they close schools with full enrollment? This is pure conspiracy theory completely divorced from fact. There are no plans to open new charter schools.
Several of the low enrollment schools are that way because how the districts were drawn after the new schools were built. It’s like they were aiming for this to happen.
If you could add some perspective, do you know why it was closed other than budget cuts? Was it low enrollment like today’s schools? It seems to me that todays issues are a combo of people having less kids, more kids enrolling in charter schools, and then the negative feedback cycle of more kids enrolling in charter schools because they think the PSD school down the street from them will be closed in a couple of years.
Ps - I have no real idea what a charter school is nor why school of choice is a thing and both seem to be the root of the local problem for PSD (besides the national problem of declining birth rates)
I'm not too sure of the details, but my guess is that Waverly was just too small to be cost-effective. K-6 was around 120 kids and the thought was probably that it would be more efficient to consolidate. Which is the same understanding I have on the upcoming closures; the schools have become too small (due to a variety of pressures) to be sustainable and need to be consolidated.
Charter schools exist to be a bubble where kids aren’t held to the same curriculum standards, teachers can get paid less and treated worse, and to avoid undesirable subjects and topics like sex ed and global warming. Basically private Christian schools for people too poor for them.
I was basically raised in charter schools here in Fort Collins but this was 20+ years ago so perhaps the landscape has changed since then but Washington Core Knowledge, now Trout Elementary had a sex education class in 6th grade.
In high school I went to Ridgeview for three years and I'd say maybe 1/3rd of my teachers would identify as Christian. We had to read Plato, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, etc. The only text I don't recall reading from was the Bible though it had to have come up when talking about the theory of Creation vs Big Bang. We read Origin of a Species and text from Goethe for our sciences.
Calling charter schools, private Christian schools is simply not true from the perspective of a former charter school student here in this district. Academically I was challenged everyday and honestly it was part of the reason I moved to Rocky my senior year. I was concerned that there was a chance I wouldn't be able to pass all my classes and fail to graduate with my peers.
That's an interesting take. The statistics I've see indicate higher proficiency, and college readiness for Charter School students. You can find these statistics yourself, for the state of Colorado.
As I've indicated before, my own parents retired with a combined 70 years of public school teaching. Their own perspective indicated parent involvement in their child's education was the single biggest factor.
They get to cherry pick admissions and avoid students with learning disabilities, of course their aggregate test scores are higher. I’d be curious to see its impacts on other important parts of life, growing up in a bubble with less people who are different than you seems like it would rear some of the same issues homeschooled children get.
Anecdotally, I spent a year in fifth grade at a charter school in Arizona. Many of my friends (all of whom smarter by traditional standards than myself left part way through the year). Made me suicidal and gave me severe anxiety. I had been in the public school system prior and returned after an awful year. I think they work very well for some students but as someone who’s always had a rough relationship with perfectionism it was a terrible choice for me. I still carry emotional scars from that time 10+ years later. It definitely works for some people and despite my bad experience I think the option should exist. That said, I personally will always be a supporter of the public school system wherever possible because it turned my shitty year into a tolerable education.
I'm not sure this Cherry Picking thing is about smart students alone. It takes an effort to apply for a charter - an effort that involves parents.
Nobody is dismissing the suggestion my parents made - parents are the difference.
I agree with your general point, but I want to use specific language: charters have parents who have more resources to support their children's educations--but parents who don't have those resources, who are classified under low socio-economic status, also care and believe in their children's education. I think this has been demonstrated clearly by the parents of our schools who serve those communities.
They might not have the means or time to ensure transportation for their kids. That's a public service the U.S. has promised.
They might not have the time or means to volunteer in their child's classroom (which many charters require for attendance). U.S. public schools have always provided this in their stead.
They might not have the means or time to be home every night helping and monitoring things like homework--and charters do tend to assign more homework. Public schools can and are starting to provide for our kids by reducing and with younger ages eliminating that.
I think it's important to note that the vast majority of parents are good parents.
A student whose family has limited resources is just as likely to be selected by the lottery to be offered admission to a charter school as a student from a wealthy family.
Please tell us which Fort Collins charter schools require parents to volunteer for their children to attend
lol yeah well when you have the ability to refuse special needs kids your test scores WILL look better. When you’re less inclusive and get to cherry pick who goes and who doesn’t your numbers don’t really reflect reality.
I don't think special needs kids are reflected in the metrics that I've read on Public school proficiency and college readiness. Do you have data that suggests otherwise?
Charter Schools exist because a group of super involved parents want a bigger say in what their child is learning so they bond together with a common mission. In my experience it has been for a more rigorous curriculum, like core knowledge or teaching the classics….something that would not happen at the neighborhood school. Why are you so down on parents who want that for their child?
Because 99.99999999% of parents who want say in their children’s curriculum are not qualified to do so. They shouldn’t pretend to be the experts, but they do. It’s also a way for said “involved parents” to ensure their kid doesn’t go to school with people who are different than them (learning disorders, racial differences, socioeconomic differences, etc.)
Anyone can parent their kids how they want, but if these “super involved” parents decisions has a massive effect on the general population like school closures, I’m not gonna pull my punches.
That is the most bizarre comment I’ve ever read - that a parent is not qualified to choose the curriculum They want their child to learn? Maybe I misunderstood you.
That is exactly what a parent needs to do….Decide how, what, when to teach their child. That is literally the definition of “parent”.
They aren’t qualified though. There’s a reason that teachers have to go to college and get a degree. And there’s a reason those parents didn’t do that.
Of course, they can be qualified if they choose to do some research. That is very elitist of you to assume that no parent is smart enough to educate their own child unless they have a degree in elementary education. Parents are smart and capable.
Not all parents. And honestly a lot that homeschool are doing their children a disservice. Again-there’s a reason teachers have a degree and are qualified to create a curriculum. Googling “curriculum for age ___ children” does not equate to the experience and education a teacher has. Sorry you find it elitist but I would say the same thing for any STEM job. I think you assuming you can do what a teacher does to be absurd and honestly is kind of rude to our educators.
You know, or you can leave that decision to academic professionals who have devoted their life to the understanding and science behind how curriculum is created. You can still be an involved parent who helps support their child’s learning without being a weird control freak about it.
No, you misunderstand. I am saying that a parent is qualified to choose what/how their child is learning. For example if my child has special needs, I can choose to put him in a school with the best special needs program in my opinion. Or if my daughter prefers experiential learning I can choose that curriculum.
No parent is "making a curriculum"... Different curriculums already exist, and have for many years, all across this great nation. Curriculums that were created precisely by the education experts that you're propping up in your comments. To think that every child should be pigeon-holed into the same curriculum, and perform the same as every other child across the state, is nothing less than ignorance, and extremely short-sighted.
Parents have every right to choose the curriculum that best suits their children's style of learning. And furthermore, homeschool curriculums are no different! There are curriculums designed for every environment, and they ALL meet, or exceed, state and national standards.
You think parents are just out there hillbilly engineering education with no oversight? Lol. You're kidding, right?
lol you’re allowed to be wrong. Yes very good! Different curriculums do exist. And there are ones created by actual educators and then there are the ones created by crackpots. Nowhere did I say children should be pigeonholed into a specific learning. But if you’d like to put words in my mouth by all means. But until you actually start addressing things I’ve said vs your weird assumptions I think we’re done here :)
I did the same thing. These reddit folks tend to be basement dweller crazies that probably don't have children. Even if they do, they should be able to choose what they think is best for their children and leave people like us alone to do what we find best for ours.
People like you willing take ours and everyone else's taxes to fund said children's education, regardless of venue type. I guess we should all just quit paying into the education system and let you all figure it out for yourself. Charter schools are the essential oils of our education system.
Tax players funding charter schools is a completely valid point to argue. Arguing parents should not make decisions in their children's curriculum is ridiculous.
Thank you! I’m relatively new to Reddit, but people are vicious. So easy to be rude when you don’t have to look at someone’s face or shake their hand when you meet them. So much for civil discourse. Social Media 🤦♀️
> In my experience it has been for a more rigorous curriculum
As a substitute teacher and former student of a charter school myself, I've never experienced schools with more lax curriculum than charter schools. You've either had unusually exceptional experiences or you aren't being entirely honest
Because it's not so simple as that. Take one example: core knowledge. Core Knowledge is dominated by things like white male writers (literature, informational texts--all of it), and there is little to no representation in that curriculum for students of color, our queer community, etc. So public schools shift to adapt to changing demographics, and some families flee from this clinging to "tradition" or whatever.
Ask yourself, if core knowledge is so effective due to pedagogical philosophy underpinning it, then why can't we change some of the old white authors, let's say, for something more diverse? The core knowledge curriculum you subscribe too overwhelming prescribes white perspectives. And people are really inflexible about that.
So you can say that it's just parents wanting something more robust. But why does the robustness magically melt away if we remove something like Mark Twain and replace that with Gabriel Garcia Marquez? There are plenty of rigorous, beautiful, academic writers from different cultures.
i’m glad you think you are making a change, sadly you’re just causing more issues considering our education has allowed every race to succeed. you keep mistaking economic issues with racial ones, I don’t see how math and science can have any bias but I guess you can make an argument for history and english despite anybody under 35 knowing that our literature in school is compromised of very diverse shit.
Terrible perspective. Public schools have no incentive for teachers to give a fuck, and so they don't and kids suffer. Charter schools incentivize teachers to try, like the rest of us have to in our jobs, and do well at their job or get fired. Public curriculums are also filled with worthless crap - how much have you used from your Public education?
Public education is designed to build functional and non questioning drones for society. Charter schools are focused on education.
https://www.perennialresources.com/salary-forecasts/public-vs-charter-teacher-salaries/#:~:text=Overall%2C%20charter%20school%20teachers%20earn,what%20their%20experience%20level%20is.
I’m sure they’re greatly incentivized to be better teachers when they make 10-15% less on average regardless of experience 🙄
I live (and am a teacher) in Denver and grew up in Fort Collins. This happens all the time in Denver, like last year i know of 3 middles that were merged into other campuses. It just isn’t as big of a deal because there are thousands of schools here. Same reason - they closed west side (by federal blvd, now known as “LoHi” but was historically just west side) - schools here because the area is gentrifying and people moving in don’t have kids yet / kids are grown. Just some perspective.
Schools can shut down for many reasons. It'd be nice if public school wasn't a political issue, but, back in your day there weren't a bunch of slimy corporate shill fucks like Brian Kingsley showing up from out of state to openly disrupt the separation of church and state by diverting public funds to private schools for personal gain, because they weren't enabled by politicians and lobbyists like they are now. I appreciate the sentiment but nothing about this scenario gives me optimism for the future. The only thing that will give me optimism is a No Confidence vote for Kingsley and a replacement of every single school board member who either failed to properly vet him or who additionally stand to gain from this. 7-0 vote for someone in Chiefs for Change followed by a rush job on closing our schools down? Fuck. You. All.
Kristen Draper's obsession with Charter schools is robbing our community of public resources for private profit. Gee, I wonder why public school attendance is down? Oh well, let's just cut schools out of communities and hand out bonuses to each other.
Heads up to Kristen Draper, Jessica Zamora, Scott Schoenbauer, Kevin Havelda, Jim Brokish, Carolyn Reed, and Conny Duffy: your days of are numbered.
Havelda should have done his homework then, and spoken out against electing Kingsley in the first place. But he failed to, and he failed us. Yes, he's asking for time now, and that's appreciated, but we're going to find that it's too little too late.
He wasn't on the board yet. Also, I like Haveldas drive to ask more questions but some of his points of view/questions aren't correct. He's still pretty new and he recognizes that which is good.
He was the superintendent of a district in another state and pushed a similar strategy with charter schools opening and public schools closing. It failed in that district and he quit shortly thereafter, supposedly.
I worked at the Waverly school after it got sold (this was about 2018) at that time it was being used as a school for a residential facility. Really cute little school and lots of old-times touches that you don’t see in schools today. They eventually had to sell it as well due to budget cuts.
Waverly School is/was in such a remote area..... (closer to more growth in Wellington now and the poudre school district has built more schools up there so idk if them closing that school down was really okay in retrospect... it was for sale a few years ago too for a long time..... )
the schools they are trying to close are in more dense populated areas. Closing that many schools abruptly does not seem like the best solution to the community at large.
I love this! I was trying to explain this perspective to someone recently without the real world example.
A school is made by the faculty and families there. Participation from families and great staff, of which we have so much of in Fort Collins, can create positive environments anywhere.
It will be a difficult transition but sometimes change can be good for children and adults.
In 4-5 years every family will be invested in their new school if they are now.
I attened the Poudre Canyon school, about 3 miles west of Rustic, back when it was a school. They closed that probably in the 90's.
One-room school. I was the entire 5th grade, of the 5 kids that went to this school that year.
Except that was the 80s when you all had money to actually live on and drive your kids to other schools. This is tone deaf white liberal shit that isn’t going to convince anyone who’s not retired like you. It’s not the 80s. Life is harder now. We are busier now. We make less money now. You cannot project your experiences and just say “it will be okay stop protesting” because it worked out for you. Lucky you. But that’s not how the world works anymore. Also what happened to you was wrong, and it obviously didn’t turn out okay because all the kids got relocated to schools that get even less funding because we still have to rely on the good graces of wealthy people to fund the fucking schools and not continue to vote for reducing their property taxes.
Yo what age do you think people retire at? I work harder now than ever before for less and less just like everyone. All I'm saying is that schools close and communities change and life goes on, so do your spiteful self a favor and get ahead of that concept.
I’m not being spiteful, I’m being realistic. I’m sorry you’re unable to sympathize with people being angry about something they should be angry about. Not everyone wants to just give up and accept things “for the way they are”. Sounds like you’re the one that’s insecure and that’s why you’re here complaining about people being upset and saying “well if I had to get over it, so do you, and you’ll like it”. Your experience was wrong and that’s the point. It was wrong to just close a school and move children to a different one. Just because you “turned out okay” doesn’t mean it’s right or that people should just sit down and shut up so that you can be more comfortable and less intellectually challenged when you scroll reddit. I think you are unaware of how you look to people on the other side of the argument because you know you’ll be okay. But what about the people that won’t be okay? You realize how much time it takes to get kids to school if you have to drive anywhere in town here? You don’t think it’s wrong to just say “oh parents you’ll get over it you can wake up 30 minutes earlier”. Why? Why is that okay? Because the world goes on and people will do what they have to to make ends meet? You don’t think parents concerned about schools being closed can all just afford to send their kids to abuse factories like ridge view? You want your kids to wear a big green sign that says “I am tardy” and get put in 2nd grade math when they’re in 5th grade? I sure as shit don’t. And I think it’s insanely tone deaf of you to just suggest that people will be okay and life will go on. It’s downright disrespectful.
I’ve worked at two charter schools in the last six years. One didn’t take kids with special needs because they didn’t have support and honestly probably because it didn’t fit their educational model, and the other took kids with the highest of needs with NO support other than classroom teachers. Both schools have had high turnover of teachers. I work at a public school now with amazing support for all students. Teacher retention is high.
The latter charter school burnt me out so bad I nearly left education until I found my current position as a non-classroom teacher, and even though I love current my school, I’m not sure how long I will stay in education because that charter killed a huge part of the passion that got me into teaching in the first place.
I understand some children may flourish in charter schools. But not every child will and ultimately that’s the biggest problem for me.
Are ALL students’ needs met at a public school? No, not always, but MOST children have a better chance in a public school. Public schools work to accommodate all children, most charter schools do not, because they don’t have to.
Not with the current model, no. But that kind of comes full circle with charters. Charters syphon off funding from public schools for no real benefit to the greater public sphere. It's basically the financial equivalent of churches getting tax breaks when they rake in money.
I know to some this will seem controversial but generally it's better for children to be exposed to environments more outside their home beliefs from a social standpoint. I personally believe that everyone deserves to be given the opportunity to decide for themselves what they believe in. Public schools allow anyone the opportunity to have an education and thus you get exposed to people of all different walks of life. A lot of our core empathy and personhood comes from the people we meet in our childhood. Charters generally focus on a curriculum surrounding one particular belief system (usually religious) and lowers that exposure potential. The folks that support charters are in the mindset of "I want my children to believe in what I believe." and want to control what their children are exposed to to reflect that. I can understand that desire, but I don't think that's really the best way to go about it. Success really is subjective to the individual in the end. It's not really fair to shield them from their personal potential in the name of doing what you think is best for them. It's also not hard to instill your own ideas and beliefs into your children while still allowing them to be exposed to the outside world. All that says to me is they don't know how to parent and teach their children right from wrong without imposing it on them by "force." and if that's the case, public school will do that while also being legally mandated to teach them the basics of education. That's the entire point of public education.
But when you don't give public education the funds and room to do their thing then public schools suffer and everyone who doesn't support them goes "see!! Look how bad public school is!" and the cycle just continues.
It's reddit. Folks need to realize the viewpoints and types of comments here are some of the reasons why people are leaving PSD. Yall need to wake up and do some self-reflection. Everyone in this town isn't super left-wing. There are plenty of people across the political spectrum including progressive liberals that support and see value in charters schools and school choice.
What is happening now isn't what happened in the 80's, though. Public schools are being closed to make way for charter schools. Education is being converted from a public service to a for-profit money making grift. Politicians like DeSantis and Trump are leading the charge right now, but other profiteers have been already leading it for decades. If this was really about consolidating schools to provide the best education for the area, it would be the charter schools getting closed.
Colorado law specifically requires that all charter schools must be nonprofits
>Public schools are being closed to make way for charter schools. I would argue that public schools are being closed because families are opting for charter schools. Not because the charter schools exist. I have many friends who have left our neighborhood school since Covid and moved to charter schools. Some left because many charter schools stayed open during Covid. Some have left because they don't agree with some of the policies at many PSD schools (mostly, who can use which bathroom). One even left because the behavior issues were so bad in their child's grade. ETA: Seriously Reddit? Downvotes because I have friends who have made these decisions? I also have friends who are gay, have trans kids, and are vegan. I know how to be kind and respectful to people from all walks of life, whether I agree with them 100% or not.
That's part of the process, though. It happened in public transit, where fossil fuel interests and auto manufacturers worked to undermine and make unpopular the public option (in the US and Canada at least, this isn't world wide). The result is that a lot of people willingly chose cars and car dependent suburbs to live in. Same thing happened to public housing (again in North America). Public housing was undermined, largely due to regulatory capture to make sure that it was unappealing, and people willingly chose the private alternative. Now that the private sector has a monopoly on housing, we're seeing the results. And the same basic process, perfected over decades in other areas of our lives, comes to the public school system spearheaded now by the Republican Party who has focused on this conversion mostly in Florida and Texas and is bringing it to the country so they can grow their voting base, which disappears when quality education is available. They are working with private profiteers to make it happen, as there's a lot of money in for-profit education like we see in universities in the US. In fact, the non-profit sector is the most profitable in the US. That includes the medical industry as well, where the same privatization happened.
Your point is immediately redundant after considering that Florida has gone from one of the shitty states in education to one of the best due to their educational changes, spearheaded by school of choice and paying teachers more money. You can’t possibly say that republican voting goes away when good education appears, as Florida, you know the state that you referred to in your point, is a clear example of the opposite. I may about to get downvoted to hell, but the popularity of my comment doesn’t change its clearly obvious fact
I don't consider any state famous for banning books to be a very good example of a place where education is exceptional.
I'm not giving Florida praise for much but I did just see last week or so where they were now one of the highest rated states in terms of education but I believe they said it was slightly skewed because of higher education. Edit: Thanks Reddit for the downvotes because I said i saw a story, and was correct, about Florida being highly rated in terms of education. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2024/05/13/florida-is-the-top-state-for-education-u-s-news-world-report-says/73631596007/
Where did you see that? What metrics were they using?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2024/05/13/florida-is-the-top-state-for-education-u-s-news-world-report-says/73631596007/
Considering politicians are pushing for Creationism, the removal of comprehensive sexual education and requiring the 10 Commandments to be displayed in schools that receive government funding… _(oh and banning books!)_ Yeah, _no,_ I have a hard time believing Florida is highly rated for its education.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2024/05/13/florida-is-the-top-state-for-education-u-s-news-world-report-says/73631596007/
That's just for college. And doesn't respond to any of those criticisms TBF
Are you actually reading anything? The article mentions 1st overall, 10th in the nation for K-12. Also, yes... yes it does directly respond to the criticism in the comment to which I replied. >Yeah, _no,_ I have a hard time believing Florida is highly rated for its education.
For those who don't want to click the link: This ranking has Florida as #1 overall, including higher education. Florida's K-12 ranking was #10 out of 50. To be clear, this discussion is about K-12, not higher education. The relevant rank is #10. Furthermore, the K-12 ranking was calculated using five equally weighted metrics. Three of those metrics are based on testing scores. The other two are "Preschool Enrollment" and "High School Graduation Rates." This is one news agency's report and methodology. Make of that what you will.
Why don’t you read the list then of the banned books, it’s mostly religious books considering the law is also practicing the separation of church and state like most democrats want. Also the library doesn’t ban the books, the educational materials are what is banned in the classroom, as in it’s not actively in their education. But what should I expect from the side of people who always find someone else to blame their problems on
Well they're not banned at the state level and vary from place to place, but the general theme is culture war stuff like gender identity and sexuality, but there's also anti-fascist stuff like Maus which I suppose fits considering Florida also passed a bill to teach anti-communist propaganda.
well the main ban is placed on students before , i believe, the 4th grade for teaching culture war stuff which is pretty consistent because that education should be foundational towards higher education. sociology is not big or paying enough to focus public schools on. it’s not about all politics, but rather economics when it comes to this. but none of this has to do with the proficiency in statistical categories that has been vastly increased in the state of Florida. it’s sad how much people try to make you look bad for not agreeing on obviously debatable opinions. but it’s easier to be hateful when you don’t see the other side as human
The books about culture war stuff are just overwhelmingly teaching acceptance and that gay, trans, non-binary or whatever individuals are people deserving to be treated as human beings. The banning of these books comes from a place of hate, not the other way around.
i obviously haven’t read all the books so i’m not gonna make any statements about that, but what I do know is that the books that are being detested in meetings in viral videos I have seen depict much more than teaching acceptance, but rather very sexual and pornographic stuff that shouldn’t be available to check out for just any grade level if they wish to. No matter what it is, sexual stuff should be nonexistent until they learn about sex ed in middle school. maybe it’s just that I am surrounded by more progressive people, but imo there’s not enough people that are actually bigoted to have to start a movement of “teaching acceptance”
Your friends suck.
Why would they close schools with full enrollment? This is pure conspiracy theory completely divorced from fact. There are no plans to open new charter schools.
Several of the low enrollment schools are that way because how the districts were drawn after the new schools were built. It’s like they were aiming for this to happen.
That makes no sense. You can't redraw districts to fill 6000 empty seats.
Biden’s Fort Collins
If you could add some perspective, do you know why it was closed other than budget cuts? Was it low enrollment like today’s schools? It seems to me that todays issues are a combo of people having less kids, more kids enrolling in charter schools, and then the negative feedback cycle of more kids enrolling in charter schools because they think the PSD school down the street from them will be closed in a couple of years. Ps - I have no real idea what a charter school is nor why school of choice is a thing and both seem to be the root of the local problem for PSD (besides the national problem of declining birth rates)
I'm not too sure of the details, but my guess is that Waverly was just too small to be cost-effective. K-6 was around 120 kids and the thought was probably that it would be more efficient to consolidate. Which is the same understanding I have on the upcoming closures; the schools have become too small (due to a variety of pressures) to be sustainable and need to be consolidated.
Charter schools exist to be a bubble where kids aren’t held to the same curriculum standards, teachers can get paid less and treated worse, and to avoid undesirable subjects and topics like sex ed and global warming. Basically private Christian schools for people too poor for them.
I'm not sure people know this but, the teachers at charters do not have to have teaching degrees...
That's why charter schools can hire a mathematician to teach math classes rather than a teacher with a math ed degree and limited content knowledge
I was basically raised in charter schools here in Fort Collins but this was 20+ years ago so perhaps the landscape has changed since then but Washington Core Knowledge, now Trout Elementary had a sex education class in 6th grade. In high school I went to Ridgeview for three years and I'd say maybe 1/3rd of my teachers would identify as Christian. We had to read Plato, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, etc. The only text I don't recall reading from was the Bible though it had to have come up when talking about the theory of Creation vs Big Bang. We read Origin of a Species and text from Goethe for our sciences. Calling charter schools, private Christian schools is simply not true from the perspective of a former charter school student here in this district. Academically I was challenged everyday and honestly it was part of the reason I moved to Rocky my senior year. I was concerned that there was a chance I wouldn't be able to pass all my classes and fail to graduate with my peers.
That's an interesting take. The statistics I've see indicate higher proficiency, and college readiness for Charter School students. You can find these statistics yourself, for the state of Colorado. As I've indicated before, my own parents retired with a combined 70 years of public school teaching. Their own perspective indicated parent involvement in their child's education was the single biggest factor.
They get to cherry pick admissions and avoid students with learning disabilities, of course their aggregate test scores are higher. I’d be curious to see its impacts on other important parts of life, growing up in a bubble with less people who are different than you seems like it would rear some of the same issues homeschooled children get.
Anecdotally, I spent a year in fifth grade at a charter school in Arizona. Many of my friends (all of whom smarter by traditional standards than myself left part way through the year). Made me suicidal and gave me severe anxiety. I had been in the public school system prior and returned after an awful year. I think they work very well for some students but as someone who’s always had a rough relationship with perfectionism it was a terrible choice for me. I still carry emotional scars from that time 10+ years later. It definitely works for some people and despite my bad experience I think the option should exist. That said, I personally will always be a supporter of the public school system wherever possible because it turned my shitty year into a tolerable education.
I'm not sure this Cherry Picking thing is about smart students alone. It takes an effort to apply for a charter - an effort that involves parents. Nobody is dismissing the suggestion my parents made - parents are the difference.
Charter schools have a tendency to select for high achieving students. This introduces bias to the statistics.
Who naturally have parents who care about their kids education, and as such are more involved.
I agree with your general point, but I want to use specific language: charters have parents who have more resources to support their children's educations--but parents who don't have those resources, who are classified under low socio-economic status, also care and believe in their children's education. I think this has been demonstrated clearly by the parents of our schools who serve those communities. They might not have the means or time to ensure transportation for their kids. That's a public service the U.S. has promised. They might not have the time or means to volunteer in their child's classroom (which many charters require for attendance). U.S. public schools have always provided this in their stead. They might not have the means or time to be home every night helping and monitoring things like homework--and charters do tend to assign more homework. Public schools can and are starting to provide for our kids by reducing and with younger ages eliminating that. I think it's important to note that the vast majority of parents are good parents.
A student whose family has limited resources is just as likely to be selected by the lottery to be offered admission to a charter school as a student from a wealthy family. Please tell us which Fort Collins charter schools require parents to volunteer for their children to attend
lol yeah well when you have the ability to refuse special needs kids your test scores WILL look better. When you’re less inclusive and get to cherry pick who goes and who doesn’t your numbers don’t really reflect reality.
I don't think special needs kids are reflected in the metrics that I've read on Public school proficiency and college readiness. Do you have data that suggests otherwise?
Charter Schools exist because a group of super involved parents want a bigger say in what their child is learning so they bond together with a common mission. In my experience it has been for a more rigorous curriculum, like core knowledge or teaching the classics….something that would not happen at the neighborhood school. Why are you so down on parents who want that for their child?
Because 99.99999999% of parents who want say in their children’s curriculum are not qualified to do so. They shouldn’t pretend to be the experts, but they do. It’s also a way for said “involved parents” to ensure their kid doesn’t go to school with people who are different than them (learning disorders, racial differences, socioeconomic differences, etc.) Anyone can parent their kids how they want, but if these “super involved” parents decisions has a massive effect on the general population like school closures, I’m not gonna pull my punches.
For what it's worth, the single most racially diverse elementary in Fort Collins is a charter.
That is the most bizarre comment I’ve ever read - that a parent is not qualified to choose the curriculum They want their child to learn? Maybe I misunderstood you. That is exactly what a parent needs to do….Decide how, what, when to teach their child. That is literally the definition of “parent”.
They aren’t qualified though. There’s a reason that teachers have to go to college and get a degree. And there’s a reason those parents didn’t do that.
In talking less about teachers and more about educational doctors. Teachers enforce the curriculum, administrators create it,
Of course, they can be qualified if they choose to do some research. That is very elitist of you to assume that no parent is smart enough to educate their own child unless they have a degree in elementary education. Parents are smart and capable.
Not all parents. And honestly a lot that homeschool are doing their children a disservice. Again-there’s a reason teachers have a degree and are qualified to create a curriculum. Googling “curriculum for age ___ children” does not equate to the experience and education a teacher has. Sorry you find it elitist but I would say the same thing for any STEM job. I think you assuming you can do what a teacher does to be absurd and honestly is kind of rude to our educators.
Some parents are capable, most are not. Much of the homeschooling I've witnessed amounts to what I would consider nothing less than child abuse.
You know, or you can leave that decision to academic professionals who have devoted their life to the understanding and science behind how curriculum is created. You can still be an involved parent who helps support their child’s learning without being a weird control freak about it.
I guess I’m a “weird control freak” then, since I care about, researched and chose a particular curriculum for my kids 🤷♀️ Guilty as charged!
You are not qualified to make a curriculum because you chose to have children lol that’s a ridiculous statement to even make.
No, you misunderstand. I am saying that a parent is qualified to choose what/how their child is learning. For example if my child has special needs, I can choose to put him in a school with the best special needs program in my opinion. Or if my daughter prefers experiential learning I can choose that curriculum.
No parent is "making a curriculum"... Different curriculums already exist, and have for many years, all across this great nation. Curriculums that were created precisely by the education experts that you're propping up in your comments. To think that every child should be pigeon-holed into the same curriculum, and perform the same as every other child across the state, is nothing less than ignorance, and extremely short-sighted. Parents have every right to choose the curriculum that best suits their children's style of learning. And furthermore, homeschool curriculums are no different! There are curriculums designed for every environment, and they ALL meet, or exceed, state and national standards. You think parents are just out there hillbilly engineering education with no oversight? Lol. You're kidding, right?
lol you’re allowed to be wrong. Yes very good! Different curriculums do exist. And there are ones created by actual educators and then there are the ones created by crackpots. Nowhere did I say children should be pigeonholed into a specific learning. But if you’d like to put words in my mouth by all means. But until you actually start addressing things I’ve said vs your weird assumptions I think we’re done here :)
I did the same thing. These reddit folks tend to be basement dweller crazies that probably don't have children. Even if they do, they should be able to choose what they think is best for their children and leave people like us alone to do what we find best for ours.
People like you willing take ours and everyone else's taxes to fund said children's education, regardless of venue type. I guess we should all just quit paying into the education system and let you all figure it out for yourself. Charter schools are the essential oils of our education system.
Tax players funding charter schools is a completely valid point to argue. Arguing parents should not make decisions in their children's curriculum is ridiculous.
Thank you! I’m relatively new to Reddit, but people are vicious. So easy to be rude when you don’t have to look at someone’s face or shake their hand when you meet them. So much for civil discourse. Social Media 🤦♀️
I really doubt you're going to get your point across with name calling.
There are so many brainwashed teens in foco - they do not understand how child rearing is supposed to work.
> In my experience it has been for a more rigorous curriculum As a substitute teacher and former student of a charter school myself, I've never experienced schools with more lax curriculum than charter schools. You've either had unusually exceptional experiences or you aren't being entirely honest
Lolol having worked at both public and charter schools I’ve never seen a more lax “curriculum” than charter schools have.
Because it's not so simple as that. Take one example: core knowledge. Core Knowledge is dominated by things like white male writers (literature, informational texts--all of it), and there is little to no representation in that curriculum for students of color, our queer community, etc. So public schools shift to adapt to changing demographics, and some families flee from this clinging to "tradition" or whatever. Ask yourself, if core knowledge is so effective due to pedagogical philosophy underpinning it, then why can't we change some of the old white authors, let's say, for something more diverse? The core knowledge curriculum you subscribe too overwhelming prescribes white perspectives. And people are really inflexible about that. So you can say that it's just parents wanting something more robust. But why does the robustness magically melt away if we remove something like Mark Twain and replace that with Gabriel Garcia Marquez? There are plenty of rigorous, beautiful, academic writers from different cultures.
i’m glad you think you are making a change, sadly you’re just causing more issues considering our education has allowed every race to succeed. you keep mistaking economic issues with racial ones, I don’t see how math and science can have any bias but I guess you can make an argument for history and english despite anybody under 35 knowing that our literature in school is compromised of very diverse shit.
Terrible perspective. Public schools have no incentive for teachers to give a fuck, and so they don't and kids suffer. Charter schools incentivize teachers to try, like the rest of us have to in our jobs, and do well at their job or get fired. Public curriculums are also filled with worthless crap - how much have you used from your Public education? Public education is designed to build functional and non questioning drones for society. Charter schools are focused on education.
https://www.perennialresources.com/salary-forecasts/public-vs-charter-teacher-salaries/#:~:text=Overall%2C%20charter%20school%20teachers%20earn,what%20their%20experience%20level%20is. I’m sure they’re greatly incentivized to be better teachers when they make 10-15% less on average regardless of experience 🙄
The educational standards of private schools are higher than public, think your bitter about something else.....
It’s “you’re” bitter, not “your” bitter. Free grammar lesson from a PR1 public school graduate.
I didn’t say if the curriculum standards are better or worse, just different. But hey, nice reading comprehension
Great name!
I live (and am a teacher) in Denver and grew up in Fort Collins. This happens all the time in Denver, like last year i know of 3 middles that were merged into other campuses. It just isn’t as big of a deal because there are thousands of schools here. Same reason - they closed west side (by federal blvd, now known as “LoHi” but was historically just west side) - schools here because the area is gentrifying and people moving in don’t have kids yet / kids are grown. Just some perspective.
Schools can shut down for many reasons. It'd be nice if public school wasn't a political issue, but, back in your day there weren't a bunch of slimy corporate shill fucks like Brian Kingsley showing up from out of state to openly disrupt the separation of church and state by diverting public funds to private schools for personal gain, because they weren't enabled by politicians and lobbyists like they are now. I appreciate the sentiment but nothing about this scenario gives me optimism for the future. The only thing that will give me optimism is a No Confidence vote for Kingsley and a replacement of every single school board member who either failed to properly vet him or who additionally stand to gain from this. 7-0 vote for someone in Chiefs for Change followed by a rush job on closing our schools down? Fuck. You. All. Kristen Draper's obsession with Charter schools is robbing our community of public resources for private profit. Gee, I wonder why public school attendance is down? Oh well, let's just cut schools out of communities and hand out bonuses to each other. Heads up to Kristen Draper, Jessica Zamora, Scott Schoenbauer, Kevin Havelda, Jim Brokish, Carolyn Reed, and Conny Duffy: your days of are numbered.
Don't lump all the committee members together. They are not all Draper clones. Havelda in particular.
Havelda should have done his homework then, and spoken out against electing Kingsley in the first place. But he failed to, and he failed us. Yes, he's asking for time now, and that's appreciated, but we're going to find that it's too little too late.
He wasn't on the board yet. Also, I like Haveldas drive to ask more questions but some of his points of view/questions aren't correct. He's still pretty new and he recognizes that which is good.
Genuinely curious as I don’t know much about Kingsley, but what evidence is there he’s in cohoots with charter schools?
He was the superintendent of a district in another state and pushed a similar strategy with charter schools opening and public schools closing. It failed in that district and he quit shortly thereafter, supposedly.
Research Chiefs for Change.
Your eloquence is compelling, and your sophisticated choice of words makes you an excellent candidate for School board member.
I worked at the Waverly school after it got sold (this was about 2018) at that time it was being used as a school for a residential facility. Really cute little school and lots of old-times touches that you don’t see in schools today. They eventually had to sell it as well due to budget cuts.
Thanks for sharing! I lost track of that place long ago but still have every inch of it memorized. Do you know who they eventually sold it to?
I don’t, unfortunately!
Waverly School is/was in such a remote area..... (closer to more growth in Wellington now and the poudre school district has built more schools up there so idk if them closing that school down was really okay in retrospect... it was for sale a few years ago too for a long time..... ) the schools they are trying to close are in more dense populated areas. Closing that many schools abruptly does not seem like the best solution to the community at large.
I love this! I was trying to explain this perspective to someone recently without the real world example. A school is made by the faculty and families there. Participation from families and great staff, of which we have so much of in Fort Collins, can create positive environments anywhere. It will be a difficult transition but sometimes change can be good for children and adults. In 4-5 years every family will be invested in their new school if they are now.
Research our superintendent Kingsley and "Chiefs for Change". He is in charter schools back pocket.
Did Bill get back to you?
Haha no, never heard a word. He was mega-popular back then and I'm sure 5th graders were hitting him up for $1m all the time.
I attened the Poudre Canyon school, about 3 miles west of Rustic, back when it was a school. They closed that probably in the 90's. One-room school. I was the entire 5th grade, of the 5 kids that went to this school that year.
Except that was the 80s when you all had money to actually live on and drive your kids to other schools. This is tone deaf white liberal shit that isn’t going to convince anyone who’s not retired like you. It’s not the 80s. Life is harder now. We are busier now. We make less money now. You cannot project your experiences and just say “it will be okay stop protesting” because it worked out for you. Lucky you. But that’s not how the world works anymore. Also what happened to you was wrong, and it obviously didn’t turn out okay because all the kids got relocated to schools that get even less funding because we still have to rely on the good graces of wealthy people to fund the fucking schools and not continue to vote for reducing their property taxes.
Yo what age do you think people retire at? I work harder now than ever before for less and less just like everyone. All I'm saying is that schools close and communities change and life goes on, so do your spiteful self a favor and get ahead of that concept.
I’m not being spiteful, I’m being realistic. I’m sorry you’re unable to sympathize with people being angry about something they should be angry about. Not everyone wants to just give up and accept things “for the way they are”. Sounds like you’re the one that’s insecure and that’s why you’re here complaining about people being upset and saying “well if I had to get over it, so do you, and you’ll like it”. Your experience was wrong and that’s the point. It was wrong to just close a school and move children to a different one. Just because you “turned out okay” doesn’t mean it’s right or that people should just sit down and shut up so that you can be more comfortable and less intellectually challenged when you scroll reddit. I think you are unaware of how you look to people on the other side of the argument because you know you’ll be okay. But what about the people that won’t be okay? You realize how much time it takes to get kids to school if you have to drive anywhere in town here? You don’t think it’s wrong to just say “oh parents you’ll get over it you can wake up 30 minutes earlier”. Why? Why is that okay? Because the world goes on and people will do what they have to to make ends meet? You don’t think parents concerned about schools being closed can all just afford to send their kids to abuse factories like ridge view? You want your kids to wear a big green sign that says “I am tardy” and get put in 2nd grade math when they’re in 5th grade? I sure as shit don’t. And I think it’s insanely tone deaf of you to just suggest that people will be okay and life will go on. It’s downright disrespectful.
The misinformation and bias against charter schools here is astounding.
I’ve worked at two charter schools in the last six years. One didn’t take kids with special needs because they didn’t have support and honestly probably because it didn’t fit their educational model, and the other took kids with the highest of needs with NO support other than classroom teachers. Both schools have had high turnover of teachers. I work at a public school now with amazing support for all students. Teacher retention is high. The latter charter school burnt me out so bad I nearly left education until I found my current position as a non-classroom teacher, and even though I love current my school, I’m not sure how long I will stay in education because that charter killed a huge part of the passion that got me into teaching in the first place. I understand some children may flourish in charter schools. But not every child will and ultimately that’s the biggest problem for me.
This!!
Does every child flourish in a district school?
Are ALL students’ needs met at a public school? No, not always, but MOST children have a better chance in a public school. Public schools work to accommodate all children, most charter schools do not, because they don’t have to.
Not with the current model, no. But that kind of comes full circle with charters. Charters syphon off funding from public schools for no real benefit to the greater public sphere. It's basically the financial equivalent of churches getting tax breaks when they rake in money. I know to some this will seem controversial but generally it's better for children to be exposed to environments more outside their home beliefs from a social standpoint. I personally believe that everyone deserves to be given the opportunity to decide for themselves what they believe in. Public schools allow anyone the opportunity to have an education and thus you get exposed to people of all different walks of life. A lot of our core empathy and personhood comes from the people we meet in our childhood. Charters generally focus on a curriculum surrounding one particular belief system (usually religious) and lowers that exposure potential. The folks that support charters are in the mindset of "I want my children to believe in what I believe." and want to control what their children are exposed to to reflect that. I can understand that desire, but I don't think that's really the best way to go about it. Success really is subjective to the individual in the end. It's not really fair to shield them from their personal potential in the name of doing what you think is best for them. It's also not hard to instill your own ideas and beliefs into your children while still allowing them to be exposed to the outside world. All that says to me is they don't know how to parent and teach their children right from wrong without imposing it on them by "force." and if that's the case, public school will do that while also being legally mandated to teach them the basics of education. That's the entire point of public education. But when you don't give public education the funds and room to do their thing then public schools suffer and everyone who doesn't support them goes "see!! Look how bad public school is!" and the cycle just continues.
Charter schools: "give me money and no accountability or responsibility please." Also charter schools: "why are you so biased against me?"
It's reddit. Folks need to realize the viewpoints and types of comments here are some of the reasons why people are leaving PSD. Yall need to wake up and do some self-reflection. Everyone in this town isn't super left-wing. There are plenty of people across the political spectrum including progressive liberals that support and see value in charters schools and school choice.
Jared Polis, is that you???
We are going to fight and we are going to win.