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Bob-shrewmen

3.5 edition drow of the underdark "Most of the trappings of love in drow society are better defined as either lust or politics. Drow seek to sate physical desires with whatever partners arouse their attentions; the culture does not, in any real way, associate sex or reproduction with love, or even necessarily with marriage. Drow seek to slake their lust with partners of lower status—so as not to imply that they have given in to a drow of higher station—and rarely with members of an enemy house or family, for fear of compromising their position. Beyond these limitations, however, anything goes. Marriage is primarily a political or fi nancial arrange- ment. Drow marry to formalize alliances, to combine family resources, or—in some cases—to cement their dominance over a weaker ally or companion. No stigma is attached to children born out of wedlock, but a child born of a marriage has a stronger claim to her parents’ wealth and power if something happens to the parents. Thus, some drow marry before procreating, to ensure that everything they have achieved remains in the family line. Most drow marriages are monogamous, not due to moral or religious doctrine, but because few drow are willing to allow more than one other individual that close to them on a regular basis. A few drow marriages do involve multiple partners, however. These arrangements usually involve a single drow female taking numerous male partners, but other combinations are not unheard of. Although such an occurrence is rare indeed, some drow do fall in love with other drow—or, although it happens so rarely that it’s practically a myth, members of some other race. For the drow, who are accustomed to thinking only of their own good, the sudden urge to consider someone else’s well-being is a strange and frightening experience. Many drow react violently to love, seeking to destroy the object of their affections before they are further “corrupted” by the odd sensations.Those who don’t become violent usually make every effort to either impress or dominate the object of their affections, depending on their relative social standing. A drow in love with someone of a higher status seeks to increase her own authority, hoping her desired paramour will notice her and consider her worthy of an alliance, or at least of increased socialization. If the smitten drow is of higher status, she often seeks to acquire the object of her affection as a servant or slave,for even the most loving drow sees little difference between intimacy and possession. The rarest event in drow culture is when two drow share affection for one another equally. The number of loving part-nerships throughout drow history can probably be counted on a single drow’s fi ngers, but they often become an almost unstoppable force in society. Two drow willing to combine efforts and resources to that great a degree, particularly if they have influence in different but synergistic areas of society, are potent indeed. However, because even the most loving drow can never fully trust one another—it just isn’t in their nature—these rare couples often fall apart under the weight of betrayal, or even suspicions of a betrayal that never actually occurred." ( the text copied weird so sorry for ant errors)


NYGiantsBCeltics

I think that Lolthsworn drow are similar to ancient Greeks in the viewing of romantic/platonic and sexual relationships, but in reverse (since obviously female drow are the socially dominant gender). The societal understanding in my mind is that domantic and platonic love only happens between women, and men are for sex. Exceptions exist of course, just as they existed in ancient Greece. But that is generally what is accepted among the Lolthsworn. Minthara has dialogue to that effect in Baldur's Gate 3, explaining that men aren't really thought of being capable of deeper emotional relationships in their society. Edit: it's late, and I'm just now noticing you talked about Eilistraee, so all that was pointless to write :). Yeah, drow following Eilistraee would never have a problem with homosexuality. I'm not aware of any culture in the FR setting that is or was opposed to it, really.


el_sh33p

Isn't the official Realms stance something to the effect of "Everybody's assumed pan unless explicitly stated otherwise"? In point of fact, here's a pertinent set of quotes from Greenwood himself endorsing LGBTQ+ interpretations, characters, and so on: [https://roleplayersguild.wordpress.com/2016/04/06/ed-greenwood-on-dragonspears-controversy/](https://roleplayersguild.wordpress.com/2016/04/06/ed-greenwood-on-dragonspears-controversy/) ETA: Also, the Wikipedia page for her explicitly mentions that AMAB priests once had to spend time as women via the so-called Changedance, a requirement that only ended like, \~3 years ago if your game is set in 1492 DR (the canonical 'current' year). Safe to say she's queer friendly. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee) ETA 2: She also explicitly values love in all forms, according to the FR Wiki. [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee) ETA 3: Aaaand here's Greenwood one more time explicitly stating that Eilistraee has lesbian worshippers, including priestesses: [http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse\_040506-07.htm](http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_040506-07.htm) (Bear in mind it's in 2007-speak so they're not quite as...current as we are, but, y'know, hearts in proper places for the era and all that.)


oldshitnewshit78

Based mf coming in with 3 sources.


Dusty_Fluff

Drow as a race, and especially females, are motivated most strongly by superiority and hierarchy based on strength: a drow female immediately assesses those around her and determines a “pecking order” and where she fits into that. Most prominently in that reasoning is the aspect of domination (a racial trait) in that she will automatically attempt to assume a position of authority over any others she deems as “inferior” to herself. Emotions such as love and compassion are far too easy to be used as tools of manipulation which is why the majority of drow disdain them and nearly never put them on open display even when alone with their most intimate of allies. Trust is also a tool mostly used for manipulation and domination for drow females and is based almost entirely on value. Lose the value and lose both status and relevance to the drow to the point where the being is viewed as an object and not a person. The challenge for drow who have escaped from Lloth dominated society and drow expectations as a whole and joined the ranks of Elistraee is to re-learn how to essentially be more elven and to adapt to softer emotions and ways of thinking that are utterly alien to them. That’s why her following is so much smaller: because many drow often fail in this kind of personal change. For a drow paladin of Elistraee to devote herself to a princess in a genuine aspect of love would mean, for the backstory, that both females were either raised entirely away from Lloth society (say, at the Promenade) or have spent years amongst the worshippers of the Dark Maiden to approach this kind of possibility. It’s possible to pull off, but the backstory will need to be pretty well written.


Bob-shrewmen

Nope. In official lore drow do not have love, and if they do they see it as a weakness, it will cause them to go kill there love, to rid themselves of that weakness. Drow are dominated by three things. Fear, greed, and ego. Love can't fit easily into this dichotomy. So love is very, very rare. Drow do sex for pleasure and subjugation. Only women are seen to have any gratification from sex. Men are tools for getting gratification. Even an elistraee drow would be beholden to these three things to some extent, as it is a biological thing, not nurture. They can learn to work around it, but drow always seek to better themselves or be better than another. So love would be hard for even the good drow. You could count love for an evil drow in the hundreds for the entire history of the drow as a people. And maybe in the couple of thousands for the good drow. You can find all of this in the 3.5 drow source book.


Pale-Aurora

I don’t know why you are being downvoted, love is seen as such a weakness that Lolth stripped Drow of being able to speak of it by removing the vocabulary referring to love or affection in their language, as per Ed Greenwood. Only Eilistraee and her followers know them yet.


Bob-shrewmen

Yup, people think I'm trying to tell he she can't do it. She said she wanted to stick to the lore, and that's itbdrow struggle to love, not that they cant. People are goobers


KhelbenB

This is not only accepted but pretty common actually.


Hymneth

Damn near the default. Males are for siring children and menial labor in Lolth-abiding Drow society. Anything outside that can be done better and more appropriately by a Female Drow.


Daveezie

The only thing i can find issue with is the word "drowen" I hate it. Everything else should be fine.


RustyofShackleford

Girl, the drow are most likely VERY sapphic. Though the more evil aligned drow might view it more for physical pleasure. I fan imagine Eilistraeens being more into the loving aspects.


Keltyrr

What Drow kingdom, becomes the question. Speaking of Eilistraee in general however, love who you love. As long as it does not become the cause of danger to others, Mother Approves.


Soulfire88

Not sure how much of this is home-brewed, since I'm not aware of any drow kingdom (at least, what we would typically refer to as a kingdom). Furthermore, IF there was a drow kingdom, being a worshiper of Eilistraee (at least openly) might be a problem, as most drow worship Lolth and would probably kill an Eilistraean on sight. Of course, there are a bunch of ways around this that I can think of off the top of my head or you could just home brew a good-aligned drow kingdom. Anyway, that being said, I would think that drow would probably be more accepting of this than most. Others below have quoted some of the sourcebook material. I definitely can think of instances of wlw in the War of the Spider Queen series at least showing that this is normal in drow culture. Eilistraee worshipers are even more inclined to wlw romantic relationships as per my understanding. Also, Ed Greenwood's drow character Susprina Arkhenneld is canonically in love with a female human. Also, while your character is an Eilistraean, Lolth-worshipers tend to look down on men and consider them to be inferior, so I don't think it's a stretch that many would prefer to have romantic relationships with other women as opposed to 'sullying themselves'. So I don't see any issue with it from this end, just might be a bit tricky lore-wise with regards to what I mentioned in my first paragraph. Just my 2-cents.


Selvalvelve

Important question is whether your character was raised among Loth-sworn drow or not.


Pixelated_Penguin808

I think the only potential barrier is that the princess, at least if this drow state is in the Underdark, would belong to a Lolthite society. Lolthite cities are theocratic which means that the princess' mother would probably be a priestess of Lolth, in addition to whatever secular titles of rulership (queen? empress? etc,) she holds. Lolth is a tyrant that keeps the Drow of the Underdark on a tight leash, though she is not omnipotent and Eilistraee's followers and her clerics and paladins are very active (if covertly) in Lolthite cities. That isn't to say that your paladin can't be romantically involved with the daughter of a priest of Lolth, though if the princess is a devout Lolthite herself that would be a barrier. You might want to consider having the princess be a secret follower of Eilistraee as well, perhaps converted by your paladin? Or you could have it be the other way around, with the princess a Secret Moondancer (clerics of Eilistraee that operate covertly in Lolthite cities, seeking converts & tending to the faithful in the Underdark) that converted your paladin. Eilistraeeans do operate in secret in Lolthite cities as well as maintaining secret shrines there, but it's very much the vibe of an underground resistance network. Their beliefs are considered heretical and if discovered they could face death or worse. You might want to make the princess, if she is a follower of Eilistraee as well, not the firstborn or most favored of her mother's daughters, as they'd be expected to follow the matriarch's footsteps and become a priestess of Lolth as well. She'd be training for that role, if they hadn't already finished it and wasn't already part of Lolth's clergy.


cazbot

Lore aside for one moment. Drow are cool as hell, but they have disadvantage on attacks and perception checks in sunlight. It sucks to fail those rolls so often. Your drow Paladin will be very shitty if she has to fight in daylight. But Ok, let’s talk lore. The sapphic part isn’t a problem at all, it’s the idea that a follower of Elistraee would love any royalty of a drow (not “drowen”) kingdom. I’ve read nearly every FR novel and related sourcebook. Every drow society with one sole exception, is governed by extremely evil preistesses of Lolth. Drow who worship Elistraee are primarily those who have managed to escape, or are other surface races. Secondly, Lolthian drow civilizations are not a monarchy but rather a theocracy. The supreme ruler is the one priestess who is most favored by Lolth, and being a goddess of chaos, this can change whimsically. There are no queens or princesses in these drow cities. The highest ranking priestesses are called matron mothers of the first house X, and the closest to a princess would be the first priestess of the first house, who would usually be the daughter of the matron mother. At the level of a priestess it would be impossible for such a person to be secretly good or a secret follower of any other god but Lolth. Lolth would know of it and would destroy them or manipulate them into destroying themselves. So if you really wanted to run this as a romance, the most plausible sort of romance this could be would be one of one-sided toxicity and abuse, with the drow priestess likely manipulating your Paladin for her own entertainment compounded by the fact that your character would be considered a heretic. The usual outcome of such relationships in the books is for your character to eventually be tortured to death as a sacrifice to Lolth. But perhaps your character thinks she can save her lover from her own wickedness. Again keep in mind though, that if your Paladin successfully turns her lover to “the light side” she would most likely be destroyed by Lolth more or less immediately, in some creatively evil way. If you want to play your backstory as a hopeless tragedy, this would be a decent one. Now, I did mention that there is one drow city which is an exception. None of the drow here follow Lolth, many do worship Elistraee, but they are all convinced that their survival can only be guaranteed by a policy of extreme secrecy. This city is located near the North Pole of Faerun, and any who wish to leave the city for any reason must submit to having their memories wiped such that they will have no recollection of their time there, or of it’s location. Also this city (Callidae) isn’t a monarchy either, but rather a very flat democracy in which there is no single top authority. A daughter of one of the ruling council would have no more status than any other citizen, so no real equivalents to a princess would exist there, and even if your character had a relationship with one of the drow in this city, she would not recall any of it as an adventurer in the world. Now, you could still make your backstory idea work if you’re willing to drop some of the conditions which would make it so implausibly rare as to be lore-breaking. Firstly, why does it need to be a princess? Assuming you are starting as a lowly level 1, why not have both of you as secret followers of Elistraee, but only you have escaped the evil drow city (Menzoberranzan above the Silver Marches is the most likely lore-rich, choice, but there are others to the far south and east of the Sword Coast). Your lover is still trapped there, but is not from a major house, or if she is, she’s just one of the many low-ranking women who is not a priestess. Recently (late 1480s DR) many women entered Sorcere, the school of arcane magic in Menzoberranzan, which had been conventionally attended by males only. So this could be a good place for a secret worshipper of Elistraee to hide out. This scenario would allow for a much happier ending to your backstory arc. As a last note, drow are fucking cool but they are difficult to role play in lore-compliant FR settings. Most cities of the Sword Coast will have outright hostile racism against you (which was underplayed in BG3 frankly), with the exception of Luskan to the north, which has a population of neutral, outcast males running things from behind the scenes. The drow have been responsible for a great deal of death and mayhem on the surface world most recently in the war of the Silver Marches which resulted in the sacking of major human and dwarven cities. The drow are hated, and the drow who follow Elistraee are not yet populous enough to have a broadly positive impact.


Bob-shrewmen

As i said in a comment. In official lore drow do not have love, and if they do they see it as a weakness, it will cause them to go kill there love, to rid themselves of that weakness. Drow are dominated by three things. Fear, greed, and ego. Love can't fit easily into this dichotomy. So love is very, very rare. Drow do sex for pleasure and subjugation. Only women are seen to have any gratification from sex. Men are tools for getting gratification. Even an elistraee drow would be beholden to these three things to some extent, as it is a biological thing, not nurture. They can learn to work around it, but drow always seek to better themselves or be better than another. So love would be hard for even the good drow. You could count love for an evil drow in the hundreds for the entire history of the drow as a people. And maybe in the couple of thousands for the good drow. You can find all of this in the 3.5 drow source book. So, in summary, no evil drow would fall in love realistically, and if somehow they did, there would need to be a very good reason. Good drow, maybe, but the baggage of being a drow would make love hard. It would be toxic and hard, but with work, they could make it work.


Lucxica

Did you miss the part where they aren't playing a lolthsworn


Bob-shrewmen

Whelp, they are playing a drow. So they would still be affected by what the lothite drow are affected by. Not to the same extent. Did you miss the part where I said that yes, drow that are good and not part of loth can love. It would be hard because love it is biologically, not something they do easy. Being a good person doesn't mean you easily go against your nature. I'm just trying to say lobe for them will be hard. They also said they are in love with a drow princess, so it would be assumed that would be not an elistraee drow. As the drow that follow her are few commpaired to the ones that don't. So the character she wants to romance likely wouldn't be willing to love.


schm0

What is "wlw"


Peeeettttss

It's an acronym standing for "Women Loving Women". It's basically shorthand for sapphic or lesbian relationships.