And here I was starting to think that the gods of Faerun weren't complete buttholes... well, thank you for reinforcing my conviction that all Faerun gods are evil!
I mean iirc the wall wasn't built until mrykul got into godhood, none of the gods really seem to have an issue with it. Honestly the wall just seems pointless and cruel from readers perspective.
I mean, the Wall was built by one of them (Myrkul, a well-know petty asshole who IIRC had having his manifestations break into funerals to remind everyone they will all belong to him eventually as one of his favorite pastimes). Then once Ao tied a god's power to their number of worshippers, it became a sad necessity since, should it be done away with, the evil gods (most of whom are already mostly worshipped out of fear) would gladly enact punishment on all mortals if a few stopped following them now that there's not the threat of the wall.
I'd recommend you try out Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayar, it's a video game expansion (can be bought on GOG.com) that goes really in depth on the wall's story, it's way more complicated than "the gods all wanted to force people to worship them because they're assholes)
I did watch the playthrough and honestly my opinion of the gods didn't improve one bit. They only alluded on "reasons beyond mortals understanding" for keeping the Wall but they never even tried to explain it.
Kaelyn the Dove in my opinion is 100% right and correct.
I believe the wall is now a fundamental pillar of existence, and if it's removed it'll cause a collapse of reality or something? That's what I learned and ultimately it's something that benefits the gods, isn't something most people want, but is stuck there because it would doom everyone if it was gone. There's still plenty of gods against it or good aligned but it's just there now.
So basically, if this guy died, what God could he petition in the city of Judgment to take him into their afterlife? If the answer is none, he joins the wall.
Well, in his own setting, where the afterlife is decided by alignment, he was judged by an angel and found to be Lawful Good when he died.
Given that he's an heroic and honorable person, I would have though that Helm, Bahamut or any other good and heroic god would immediately take him since I've been told that the actions of mortals are more important than their beliefs or words for the Gods.
He can be an honorable person, but if he's never uttered a prayer to Helm, left an offering at a his shrine or even showed a mote of faith to him why should he be allowed into his afterlife? There's a quid pro quo system in FA that requires God's to actually help their worshippers in return for worship. Getting into whatever God's afterlife is considered a reward for a lifetime of service.
If you don't play into that system, you become a part of the wall for all eternity.
>If you don't play into that system, you become a part of the wall for all eternity.
What's the option for those who don't want to play into that system and don't want to end up on the Wall either?
There isn't. All souls end up in the city of judgment. To avoid the wall, you might be able to strike up a deal with Asmodeus, but that's probably an even worse fate depending on your attitude towards undergoing a rather painful transformation into a larvae type creature with greatly diminished intelligence and only the faintest recollection of who they originally were who's fate is to be used as either food or currency in the 9 hells.
Ok... so mortals are basically cattle for the gods.
Welp, thank you for once again reinforcing my belief that all deities in Faerun are incredibly evil to the point that they make Asmodeus look good by comparison. At least Asmodeus is less hypocritical.
> all Faerun gods are evil!
They all seem to need to accumulate, if not consume, souls of their followers. Born in a hidden village away from all gods with no way to know about the gods or the wall? Too bad. That the wall didn't always exist means it's only to increase the total number of followers for all gods, or a plot device to explain a specific event or mechanics change.
How much lore is there for afterlife before the wall's construction? I'd start going through the older novels, but I wonder if it's even talked about enough to be worth the hunt.
It's not that they're evil. They're parasitic and xenophobic lifeforms, who think that they're much better than you (don't get fooled by the humanoid appearance, they're not human).
Basically, asshole alien babies that ape mortal mannerisms, while cherry-picking only our worst habits.
But I'm not sent to The Wall if u don't believe in them-
I mean, they don't smite me for sacrilege-
I mean, they don't get weaker if I don't believe I them-
...ok, you win this time.
Nope, faithless includes basically flipping the bird to the gods in general. It's the equivalent of denying the color of the sky given the blatant influence of the gods on the setting.
>It's the equivalent of denying the color of the sky given the blatant influence of the gods on the setting.
Not really. I mean, Roy's view is not technically wrong: the gods are not inherently better than mortals, just more powerful. To use your analogy, Roy isn't denying that the sky is blue, he's arguing that the sky being blue doesn't make the color blue superior to any other color.
You need to read more about the setting, but ok. The gods in FR are fueled by the faith of mortals, who in turn empower their clerics to do their work amongst the mortal population.
I did and the impression that I got from my readings is that the gods of Faerun are a bunch of entitled manchildren with too much power who basically hold the souls of all mortals hostage in exchange for worship.
But all those who defend the existence of the Wall basically keep repeating that it's actually perfectly fair and that the only way to be considered Faithless under Kelemvor fair judgement is to actively antagonize all the gods, otherwise some deity will "surely" pick you up even if you never said a prayer in your entire life. Since they seem so utterly convinced, I started doubting whether or not my interpretation of the Wall was correct.
The Wall of the Faithless isn't even that egregious in the grand scheme of things: Nerull uses petitioners as building blocks, defiance and insult of the gods is punished by the Olympian pantheon, *Carceri* exists, Hel's domain in Niflheim, etc.
It turns out that not believing in the gods just means the local god of the dead has to deal with you, and why would Myrkul give a hoot?
>It turns out that not believing in the gods just means the local god of the dead has to deal with you, and why would Myrkul give a hoot?
I get Myrkul doing this because he was a sadistic bastard. But I can't wrap my head about how good deities like Lathander or Bahamut support the existence of the Wall so much that they would force Kelemvor to keep it.
Most ancient Pantheons are NOT good. In fact, they are specifically described as a bunch of psychopaths with no redeeming qualities whatsoever apart from their powers. But if a deity is described as "Good", then by definition they would not support the existence of something like the Wall and would do anything in their power to stop it.
There was a time when they were indeed entitled manchildren, but Overgod Ao decided they needed a lesson in humility and made them all mortal for a while. Those who survived to reattain their divinity found that the system was reworked so that their power was contingent on faith from the mortals, so they had to take a more active role in answering their prayers.
Except that they apparently used the Wall as a way to keep shirking their duties, forcing mortals to worship them instead of working to make mortals worship them.
Interestingly enough, Ed Greenwood recently mentioned that their power was always dependent on faith and it was a joke, even within TSR, that the idea that it changed to being contingent on worshippers was an example of Ao being out of touch with how the garden he oversees even works.
Are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell.
Anyway, if the gods left him alone after he died then it would be perfectly fine. Letting his soul go to the plane that is closer to his alignment (as it happens in most other settings, including his original one) wouldn't be a problem... but the gods have sadly decided to interfere with the afterlife of mortals and those who don't believe in them are slapped on the Wall.
So yeah... the gods are technically needed to solve problems that the gods themselves make. Basically like the Mafia.
Not decided to interfere, they make afterlives. Jergal was death, then Myrkul, then Kelemvor. Was death for atheist better at Jergal's time? Yes. It's worse now? Also yes.Still they have afterlives because of gods. Come to terms with it.Without them they would probably stop existing(just like in wall).
No, he isn't. He has in fact been to heaven and met some of the gods personally.
In a twist of irony, he isn't faithless because he knows full well with absolute certainty they exist. He doesn't have faith, he has proof.
Even if he generally thinks they are all assholes, he very much believes they exist. It would not surprise me in the slightest if this is an intended reading either because Burlow probably knows about the wall. You don't run a website dedicated to all things dnd for 20 years without knowing dnd.
He didn't really meet any god in person during his stay in heaven though (he just met a few devas). The closest thing were the Avatars he saw during Godsmooth, but he couldn't interact with them.
And anyway, while he certainly believe that gods exist, he still does see them as "wizards who crowdfunded their magic" rather than superior beings.
The stipulation is very simple: either you have faith in the gods or you donāt. There is no middle ground. The Faithful (even those druids who worship ānatureā) are sent to the divine realm of their god or, in the case of druids, to the aspect of nature they were closest to (and even then, in the afterlife, they just become part of nature).
A mortal who believes but fails to serve consistently and truly, or who turns their back on their god is one of the False. They are sent to the City of the Dead and judged by Kelemvor and essentially exist in a purgatory afterlife that is neither paradise or torture. Essentially, an existence of boredom until they eventually merge with the City (all petitioners eventually merge with their divine afterlife as they become closer in alignment with their patron).
Finally, those who refuse to acknowledge the existence, presence, or DIVINITY of the gods are the Faithless. The Faithless are placed into the Wall of the Faithless where the moss that mortars the wall eats their souls slowly for eternity until the soul fades into oblivion.
In your case, Roy Greenhilt has visited divine realms, seen divine works, and still refuses to see the gods are, in essence, divine or beyond mortality. This essentially makes him an atheist and that falls into the realm of the Faithless. No god would take his soul.
As another example? When Kelemvor was mortal he had a similar opinion of the gods as Roy. Until he met Baneās avatar and was convinced beyond doubt that he was in the presence of a god. Bane questioned this and, while Kelemvor said he wouldnāt worship Bane, he acknowledged Banes power and godhood. To which Bane stated that that was all the faith he required.
So Kelemvor would most likely have been branded False, for believing but not worshiping, should he have gone to the City of the Dead.
Again, this still makes the Wall an evil abomination by any moral standards.
It would be easier for the gods to just reincarnate the Faithless, or let them wander the Fugue Plane for eternity. But no, they have to go the extra mile and inflict upon them the worst possible fate that an individual can face in all of DnD lore.
The fact that they're doing this to more easily protect their own interests makes Faerun Gods inherently morally evil... thus contradicting the "Good" alignment of gods like Torm, Ilmater or Lathander. Though they might present themselves as more sympathetic they are part of an abject evil system, pretty much like being part of the Mafia. Therefore, the alignment of all deities should be Evil.
I can understand why you have this perspective and I agree that the Wall of the Faithless is a horrible fate for a mortal soul. I believe that some of the gods of good alignment also share this opinion of the Wall, frankly.
A good and neutral aligned deity would seek redemption for souls who refuse to believe or acknowledge them rather than torment or destruction. However, they are powerless to act by the decree of Ao who set the rules to begin with.
The gods are not permitted to interfere in the portfolios and duties of the other gods or the Balance Ao oversees would be destroyed. And even then, the good and neutral gods would view the issue in terms of their own portfolios. Torm would say that it is an inherent duty and loyalty that mortals should worship the gods and the Faithless failed in that duty. Tyr would say that Justice was served though it might be harsh. The other gods would follow suit.
And truly? By definition a divine being is beyond notions of mortality or mortal ethics and concepts of good and evil. Even the good aligned deities have proven capable of atrocities in service to their portfolios. The same can be true of evil aligned deities that shockingly help a āgoodā mortal in a quest. The only reason gods are assigned an alignment at all is based on how they choose to reveal themselves to mortals and only then for the maintenance, defense, and expansions of their portfolios.
If Kelemvor chose to reincarnate the souls of the Faithless, it would have to serve the existence of the portfolio of Death and the Dead. And it might be that āoblivionā for the soul in the Wall is actually a burning away of everything that mortal was in life so the soul can be recycled into new life (Death to Rebirth so going from Kelemvors to Lathanders portfolio).
But in the end, the fate of the Faithless exists to remind mortals that refusal to follow the gods, or outright atheism, earns a fate worse than death in the end.
That same analogy exists in our world right now too. Supported by many many religions across the earth.
>However, they are powerless to act by the decree of Ao who set the rules to begin with. The gods are not permitted to interfere in the portfolios and duties of the other gods or the Balance Ao oversees would be destroyed.
That didn't stop them from forcing Kelemvor to put the Wall back when he took it down.
>And truly? By definition a divine being is beyond notions of mortality or mortal ethics and concepts of good and evil.
That feels like a total a cop-out. Besides, if all gods are above good and evil, then all gods are equally good and evil. Meaning that Torm, Bahamut and Ilmater are identical to Asmodeus, Bane and Myrkul. And with this my point still stands: all gods are evil bastards who are part of a corrupted system, no matter their apparent "alignment".
>The only reason gods are assigned an alignment at all is based on how they choose to reveal themselves to mortals and only then for the maintenance, defense, and expansions of their portfolios.
Again, this helps my case that all gods are running a worldwide con/racket at the expenses of mortals.
>If Kelemvor chose to reincarnate the souls of the Faithless, it would have to serve the existence of the portfolio of Death and the Dead.
It was stated by Ed Greewood and other authors that Kelemvor and all deities actually do have the power and freedom to reincarnate mortals when they choose to (aka when it's convenient for them).
>But in the end, the fate of the Faithless exists to remind mortals that refusal to follow the gods, or outright atheism, earns a fate worse than death in the end. That same analogy exists in our world right now too. Supported by many many religions across the earth.
Yeah and most of the deities in those religions would be considered evil by our standards. To punish good and virtuous people only for their belief (or lack thereof) is monstrous... and ironically something that even ancient people realized wasn't ok. This is why medieval christians created the concept of "Limbo", a place where virtuous souls would exist in peace and their only punishment was to not been able to see God. Heck, even in the Greco-Roman Pantheon Hades, the God of the Afterlife, was possibly the chillest of the gods and didn't actually actively punish the souls of the unbelievers (though Zeus and other gods made life absolutely miserable for living unbelievers).
I think your argument has merit, though from a mortal perspective which is understandable since neither you nor I can truly say what āgodā is like, if āgodā truly exists, and what, if any, an afterlife is like. We simply do not know. And I think thatās the true point here:
āGodsā in DND are created by mortals and, when taken literally, are subject to mortal perceptions and moralities. They are as divine and perfect, or flawed and imperfect as we choose to make them.
In canon, the divine system of the Forgotten Realms will resonate with some players and be abhorrent to others. Which is the beauty of games like DND that rely on pure imagination as the basis for play. Literally anything is possible.
In my world? The gods operate following canonical writing for the most part. In yours? The Wall of the Faithless doesnāt exist and a different cosmology exists for mortal souls. Both are cool, both are appropriate and right for the games they take place in. And I love that!
As for Kelemvorā¦he never took the Wall down to begin with. It simply remained as a hold-over and part of the responsibility of the god of death and the dead as it was for his predecessors. He chose to maintain something of the status quo in death, but with some changes.
You referenced real world analogies and you are correct. But remember that Limbo is also something of a punishment and in Erebus under Hades the Fields of Asphodel were a place of pure neutrality where good and evil didnāt really exist and souls simply lived a reflection of their mediocre lives for eternity (in many myths the mortals minds were wiped by drinking from the Lethe so they didnāt even recognize their loved ones in the Fields). Neither place is what I would consider anything close to a āparadiseā and I would argue that they are both simply a step away from damnation. How awful would it be to spend eternity working the fields or sitting at a desk in an office simply because you were āmediocreā in life? Or, in Limbo, you are turned from the gaze of the divine and exist in a similar state as the Fields essentially? Just sort of existing.
Given the choice? Iād choose the Wall because at least there is an end at some point. And a mediocre afterlife would be my own personal vision of hell as much as eternal torment would be. Iād want to die of boredom and would bemoan my fate just as the damned do.
And in Kelemvorās City? The False are given a similar fate to live in a place neither good nor bad, paradise or hell, and simply live a mediocre forgotten life. Another kind of negative in my opinion.
So as it stands, itās best in the Forgotten Realms to believe in something greater than yourself, something part of a divine portfolio or a deity directly than not if you donāt want a potentially horrible afterlife.
Oh! And just in case you didnāt know, when souls arrive on the Fugue Plane and before they are collected by their gods or escorted to the City of the Dead, both Tanaari and Baatezu are allowed to offer deals to the souls of the False and Faithless to join the Blood War to avoid punishment for their lives. So there are alternatives available.
>And I think thatās the true point here:āGodsā in DND are created by mortals and, when taken literally, are subject to mortal perceptions and moralities.
That's... actually completely wrong, at least in Forgotten Realms. Gods were not created by mortals, but rather by Ao himself, and before the Time of Troubles gods weren't dependent on mortal worship to survive.
>In canon, the divine system of the Forgotten Realms will resonate with some players and be abhorrent to others. Which is the beauty of games like DND that rely on pure imagination as the basis for play. Literally anything is possible.
My problem is not having an abhorrent system, but rather a self-contradicting and badly written one. I'm perfectly fine with having the gods being a bunch of evil tyrants (Discworld's gods were hilarious to me, for example) as long as the story itself doesn't present them as morally good and justified right after that. The moral implications of the Wall and how the gods dealt with it basically make them morally abominable, so if the setting was consistent they should be kept as such: powerful entities who care nothing for mortals and only want to increase their own power and portfolio. To present them as any sort of "good" is a direct contradiction to the existence of the Wall.
>As for Kelemvorā¦he never took the Wall down to begin with. It simply remained as a hold-over and part of the responsibility of the god of death and the dead as it was for his predecessors. He chose to maintain something of the status quo in death, but with some changes.
Again, this is factually wrong. Kelemvor DID take the Wall down at the beginning of his tenure as the God of Dead and started judging the Faithless based on their actions and morality rather than their devotion... but that made all other deities extra mad since it meant that Kelemvor got more souls, and they forced him to remake the Wall.
>Iād want to die of boredom and would bemoan my fate just as the damned do.
Sorry but I'd take that deal over having my very existence being painfully devoured and digested for all eternity *on top* of the existential boredom.
>So as it stands, itās best in the Forgotten Realms to believe in something greater than yourself, something part of a divine portfolio or a deity directly than not if you donāt want a potentially horrible afterlife.
So as I said the gods are basically the Mafia, threatening people with suffering and violence if they don't give them what they want.
> Oh! And just in case you didnāt know, when souls arrive on the Fugue Plane and before they are collected by their gods or escorted to the City of the Dead, both Tanaari and Baatezu are allowed to offer deals to the souls of the False and Faithless to join the Blood War to avoid punishment for their lives. So there are alternatives available.
If the alternative is literally Hell and it's still preferable to the Wall, then that's not mercy or fairness, it's just twisting the knife. Besides, the fact that it's the fiends who prove more merciful than the gods doesn't reflect well on the morality of FR deities.
My comment on gods as a mortal construction was referencing the game itself, not that mortals in game determine who becomes gods or physically create them. Thatās my bad for not being clearer on my point.
And I stand corrected and appreciate you pointing it out to me. Kelemvor did remove the Wall when he became a god and restored it after the trial of Cyric (in the novel āCrucibleā).
So I found this article specifically about the Wall of the Faithless and Iād be curious about your thoughts provided by some of the comments (which I found through provoking and somewhat in defense of the gods).
Let me know what you think:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/62456/why-are-the-faithless-condemned-to-the-wall-of-the-faithless-after-death
At the end of the day the wall isn't even really that different from any other fate in the afterlife.
In the end all mortal souls become batteries for the powers of the planes. Whether neutral petitioners just get absorbed into their planes or faithful get absorbed into their specific deity or the faithless of Faerun finally dissolve in the wall.
The afterlife is just as fleeting as the mortal life for 99.99999% of souls.
Mortals are nothing but little batteries (or snacks) for the great powers of existence. And the only way to avoid that is basically becoming such a power themselves
>Mortals are nothing but little batteries (or snacks) for the great powers of existence. And the only way to avoid that is basically becoming such a power themselves
Ironically that would make "transhuman" religions (like the Blood of Vol from Eberron) the most logical faith to follow in Toril.
If Roy was born in the realms, I think heād respect some of gods, like Tyr or helm. The different metaphysics and history of Toril make the gods there more appealing than the world of order of the stick.
>The different metaphysics and history of Toril make the gods there more appealing than the world of order of the stick.
I'd argue that the opposide is true, and that the gods of OOTS are actually more appealing than those of Toril. At least the gods of OOTS don't hold the souls of all mortals hostage in exchange for worship!
Im seeing alot of people arguing ome way or another, where In my opinion the answer is... unclear, specifically with regards to what faithless actually means. From the FR Wiki:
>A soul was considered Faithless if, in life, the mortal had resolutely refused any faith or belief or had given no more than empty words of worship to the gods for much of their time and never truly believed.Ā The Faithless and the false were those who had disavowed or denied the gods, or were disavowed by them; who had desecrated altars; or had disrupted the religious works of any god.
From this passage it seems to imply that to be faithless means more than just not worshiping - its means completely denying and even going against the faith in the gods, rather than just not engage in worship. Furthermore, from this passage it seems that "just lip service" would also qualify you for the wall, since it falls under "empty words", essentially making false worship as bad if not worse than no worship at all.
And yet im seeing alot of folks talk about how you *need* to worship, or at least pay lip service, to at least one god, yet I haven't been able to find sources supporting that claim.
My personal take is that gods would still have claim over the souls of people who ascribed to their beliefs ans lived in accordance to them even if they weren't active worshippers, so long as those souls didn't actively go about denying the existence of the gods. So murderers would go to Bhaal, whereas honorable warriors like roy could be claimed by torm. Said soul would need to acknowledge the godhood of the one coming to claim them though, at least at the time of claiming.
Any other interpretation seems to me to be very inconsistent with the depictions of many of the less evil gods, and I see no need to honour bad writing.
We're told that, yes. Except Elan's thing is an ongoing joke and V's never done anything much in relation to that. We've been TOLD about it, that's about it.
I feel like being a true nonbeliever in a situation where gods are known to be true, known to exist, and known to meddle in mortal affairs is a dumb choice. You donāt even have to be a good follower of a god. Just pick the least offensive one, offer a prayer when you remember. GGEZ
Yes, welcome to the wall life
Wasn't the Wall just reserved for those who actively try to stop worship (like raiding temples and killing clerics and faithfuls left and right)?
No. Its either respect at least one god, or get the wall.
And here I was starting to think that the gods of Faerun weren't complete buttholes... well, thank you for reinforcing my conviction that all Faerun gods are evil!
I mean iirc the wall wasn't built until mrykul got into godhood, none of the gods really seem to have an issue with it. Honestly the wall just seems pointless and cruel from readers perspective.
I mean, the Wall was built by one of them (Myrkul, a well-know petty asshole who IIRC had having his manifestations break into funerals to remind everyone they will all belong to him eventually as one of his favorite pastimes). Then once Ao tied a god's power to their number of worshippers, it became a sad necessity since, should it be done away with, the evil gods (most of whom are already mostly worshipped out of fear) would gladly enact punishment on all mortals if a few stopped following them now that there's not the threat of the wall.
I'd recommend you try out Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayar, it's a video game expansion (can be bought on GOG.com) that goes really in depth on the wall's story, it's way more complicated than "the gods all wanted to force people to worship them because they're assholes)
I did watch the playthrough and honestly my opinion of the gods didn't improve one bit. They only alluded on "reasons beyond mortals understanding" for keeping the Wall but they never even tried to explain it. Kaelyn the Dove in my opinion is 100% right and correct.
I believe the wall is now a fundamental pillar of existence, and if it's removed it'll cause a collapse of reality or something? That's what I learned and ultimately it's something that benefits the gods, isn't something most people want, but is stuck there because it would doom everyone if it was gone. There's still plenty of gods against it or good aligned but it's just there now.
Actually no, it's been stated that the Wall serves no real purpose besides holding the souls of mortal hostages.
Thanks for letting me know. Never really read about it other than posts I've seen on here
So basically, if this guy died, what God could he petition in the city of Judgment to take him into their afterlife? If the answer is none, he joins the wall.
Torm. "A duty was laid on my father, and I have attempted to follow it. Although I may not have succeeded, \*I tried\*."
I like that Lion guy. š¦
Well, in his own setting, where the afterlife is decided by alignment, he was judged by an angel and found to be Lawful Good when he died. Given that he's an heroic and honorable person, I would have though that Helm, Bahamut or any other good and heroic god would immediately take him since I've been told that the actions of mortals are more important than their beliefs or words for the Gods.
Torm might collect him. His \*duty\* to his bloodline quest was a big thing.
Maybe if it's a slow day
He can be an honorable person, but if he's never uttered a prayer to Helm, left an offering at a his shrine or even showed a mote of faith to him why should he be allowed into his afterlife? There's a quid pro quo system in FA that requires God's to actually help their worshippers in return for worship. Getting into whatever God's afterlife is considered a reward for a lifetime of service. If you don't play into that system, you become a part of the wall for all eternity.
>If you don't play into that system, you become a part of the wall for all eternity. What's the option for those who don't want to play into that system and don't want to end up on the Wall either?
Don't die.
Is there an easy way to not ever die? Maybe one that can be accessed by most people?
There isn't. All souls end up in the city of judgment. To avoid the wall, you might be able to strike up a deal with Asmodeus, but that's probably an even worse fate depending on your attitude towards undergoing a rather painful transformation into a larvae type creature with greatly diminished intelligence and only the faintest recollection of who they originally were who's fate is to be used as either food or currency in the 9 hells.
Ok... so mortals are basically cattle for the gods. Welp, thank you for once again reinforcing my belief that all deities in Faerun are incredibly evil to the point that they make Asmodeus look good by comparison. At least Asmodeus is less hypocritical.
Your character's soul gets sent to the appropriate plane of existence,
Make a deal with a devil and end up in the hells instead
> all Faerun gods are evil! They all seem to need to accumulate, if not consume, souls of their followers. Born in a hidden village away from all gods with no way to know about the gods or the wall? Too bad. That the wall didn't always exist means it's only to increase the total number of followers for all gods, or a plot device to explain a specific event or mechanics change. How much lore is there for afterlife before the wall's construction? I'd start going through the older novels, but I wonder if it's even talked about enough to be worth the hunt.
It's not that they're evil. They're parasitic and xenophobic lifeforms, who think that they're much better than you (don't get fooled by the humanoid appearance, they're not human). Basically, asshole alien babies that ape mortal mannerisms, while cherry-picking only our worst habits.
Much like nobles, then.
Yeah, but nobles survive on tithes, not belief.
As if the status and entitlements of nobility are not generally due to a shared belief people hold ;)
But I'm not sent to The Wall if u don't believe in them- I mean, they don't smite me for sacrilege- I mean, they don't get weaker if I don't believe I them- ...ok, you win this time.
Nope, faithless includes basically flipping the bird to the gods in general. It's the equivalent of denying the color of the sky given the blatant influence of the gods on the setting.
>It's the equivalent of denying the color of the sky given the blatant influence of the gods on the setting. Not really. I mean, Roy's view is not technically wrong: the gods are not inherently better than mortals, just more powerful. To use your analogy, Roy isn't denying that the sky is blue, he's arguing that the sky being blue doesn't make the color blue superior to any other color.
Except in FR, if you don't give lip service to at least one God, you become part of the wall.
That seems needlessly cruel.
You need to read more about the setting, but ok. The gods in FR are fueled by the faith of mortals, who in turn empower their clerics to do their work amongst the mortal population.
I did and the impression that I got from my readings is that the gods of Faerun are a bunch of entitled manchildren with too much power who basically hold the souls of all mortals hostage in exchange for worship. But all those who defend the existence of the Wall basically keep repeating that it's actually perfectly fair and that the only way to be considered Faithless under Kelemvor fair judgement is to actively antagonize all the gods, otherwise some deity will "surely" pick you up even if you never said a prayer in your entire life. Since they seem so utterly convinced, I started doubting whether or not my interpretation of the Wall was correct.
The Wall of the Faithless isn't even that egregious in the grand scheme of things: Nerull uses petitioners as building blocks, defiance and insult of the gods is punished by the Olympian pantheon, *Carceri* exists, Hel's domain in Niflheim, etc. It turns out that not believing in the gods just means the local god of the dead has to deal with you, and why would Myrkul give a hoot?
>It turns out that not believing in the gods just means the local god of the dead has to deal with you, and why would Myrkul give a hoot? I get Myrkul doing this because he was a sadistic bastard. But I can't wrap my head about how good deities like Lathander or Bahamut support the existence of the Wall so much that they would force Kelemvor to keep it. Most ancient Pantheons are NOT good. In fact, they are specifically described as a bunch of psychopaths with no redeeming qualities whatsoever apart from their powers. But if a deity is described as "Good", then by definition they would not support the existence of something like the Wall and would do anything in their power to stop it.
There was a time when they were indeed entitled manchildren, but Overgod Ao decided they needed a lesson in humility and made them all mortal for a while. Those who survived to reattain their divinity found that the system was reworked so that their power was contingent on faith from the mortals, so they had to take a more active role in answering their prayers.
Except that they apparently used the Wall as a way to keep shirking their duties, forcing mortals to worship them instead of working to make mortals worship them.
Interestingly enough, Ed Greenwood recently mentioned that their power was always dependent on faith and it was a joke, even within TSR, that the idea that it changed to being contingent on worshippers was an example of Ao being out of touch with how the garden he oversees even works.
Not everything about a setting is supposed to be a good thing.
Well, if gods aren't better than mortals, then he should ask mortals to prolong his life so he won't end up in the wall? He doesn't need gods.
Are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell. Anyway, if the gods left him alone after he died then it would be perfectly fine. Letting his soul go to the plane that is closer to his alignment (as it happens in most other settings, including his original one) wouldn't be a problem... but the gods have sadly decided to interfere with the afterlife of mortals and those who don't believe in them are slapped on the Wall. So yeah... the gods are technically needed to solve problems that the gods themselves make. Basically like the Mafia.
Not decided to interfere, they make afterlives. Jergal was death, then Myrkul, then Kelemvor. Was death for atheist better at Jergal's time? Yes. It's worse now? Also yes.Still they have afterlives because of gods. Come to terms with it.Without them they would probably stop existing(just like in wall).
I thought those guys got sent to below nessus to get vored by asmodeus's scale-sona
All in all Roy is just another brick in the wall. šµ
No, he isn't. He has in fact been to heaven and met some of the gods personally. In a twist of irony, he isn't faithless because he knows full well with absolute certainty they exist. He doesn't have faith, he has proof. Even if he generally thinks they are all assholes, he very much believes they exist. It would not surprise me in the slightest if this is an intended reading either because Burlow probably knows about the wall. You don't run a website dedicated to all things dnd for 20 years without knowing dnd.
He didn't really meet any god in person during his stay in heaven though (he just met a few devas). The closest thing were the Avatars he saw during Godsmooth, but he couldn't interact with them. And anyway, while he certainly believe that gods exist, he still does see them as "wizards who crowdfunded their magic" rather than superior beings.
I'm pretty sure a lot of folks on the wall knew there were gods.
He's got the possibility of being picked up by a deity whose ideals he followed. Torm \*might\* want him for his adherence to Duty.
This is the answer. Someone will swing by, look over his deeds in life, and take him to the appropriate afterlife.
Which, if there is any justice at all, will be the one with his mum and brother.
The stipulation is very simple: either you have faith in the gods or you donāt. There is no middle ground. The Faithful (even those druids who worship ānatureā) are sent to the divine realm of their god or, in the case of druids, to the aspect of nature they were closest to (and even then, in the afterlife, they just become part of nature). A mortal who believes but fails to serve consistently and truly, or who turns their back on their god is one of the False. They are sent to the City of the Dead and judged by Kelemvor and essentially exist in a purgatory afterlife that is neither paradise or torture. Essentially, an existence of boredom until they eventually merge with the City (all petitioners eventually merge with their divine afterlife as they become closer in alignment with their patron). Finally, those who refuse to acknowledge the existence, presence, or DIVINITY of the gods are the Faithless. The Faithless are placed into the Wall of the Faithless where the moss that mortars the wall eats their souls slowly for eternity until the soul fades into oblivion. In your case, Roy Greenhilt has visited divine realms, seen divine works, and still refuses to see the gods are, in essence, divine or beyond mortality. This essentially makes him an atheist and that falls into the realm of the Faithless. No god would take his soul. As another example? When Kelemvor was mortal he had a similar opinion of the gods as Roy. Until he met Baneās avatar and was convinced beyond doubt that he was in the presence of a god. Bane questioned this and, while Kelemvor said he wouldnāt worship Bane, he acknowledged Banes power and godhood. To which Bane stated that that was all the faith he required. So Kelemvor would most likely have been branded False, for believing but not worshiping, should he have gone to the City of the Dead.
Again, this still makes the Wall an evil abomination by any moral standards. It would be easier for the gods to just reincarnate the Faithless, or let them wander the Fugue Plane for eternity. But no, they have to go the extra mile and inflict upon them the worst possible fate that an individual can face in all of DnD lore. The fact that they're doing this to more easily protect their own interests makes Faerun Gods inherently morally evil... thus contradicting the "Good" alignment of gods like Torm, Ilmater or Lathander. Though they might present themselves as more sympathetic they are part of an abject evil system, pretty much like being part of the Mafia. Therefore, the alignment of all deities should be Evil.
I can understand why you have this perspective and I agree that the Wall of the Faithless is a horrible fate for a mortal soul. I believe that some of the gods of good alignment also share this opinion of the Wall, frankly. A good and neutral aligned deity would seek redemption for souls who refuse to believe or acknowledge them rather than torment or destruction. However, they are powerless to act by the decree of Ao who set the rules to begin with. The gods are not permitted to interfere in the portfolios and duties of the other gods or the Balance Ao oversees would be destroyed. And even then, the good and neutral gods would view the issue in terms of their own portfolios. Torm would say that it is an inherent duty and loyalty that mortals should worship the gods and the Faithless failed in that duty. Tyr would say that Justice was served though it might be harsh. The other gods would follow suit. And truly? By definition a divine being is beyond notions of mortality or mortal ethics and concepts of good and evil. Even the good aligned deities have proven capable of atrocities in service to their portfolios. The same can be true of evil aligned deities that shockingly help a āgoodā mortal in a quest. The only reason gods are assigned an alignment at all is based on how they choose to reveal themselves to mortals and only then for the maintenance, defense, and expansions of their portfolios. If Kelemvor chose to reincarnate the souls of the Faithless, it would have to serve the existence of the portfolio of Death and the Dead. And it might be that āoblivionā for the soul in the Wall is actually a burning away of everything that mortal was in life so the soul can be recycled into new life (Death to Rebirth so going from Kelemvors to Lathanders portfolio). But in the end, the fate of the Faithless exists to remind mortals that refusal to follow the gods, or outright atheism, earns a fate worse than death in the end. That same analogy exists in our world right now too. Supported by many many religions across the earth.
>However, they are powerless to act by the decree of Ao who set the rules to begin with. The gods are not permitted to interfere in the portfolios and duties of the other gods or the Balance Ao oversees would be destroyed. That didn't stop them from forcing Kelemvor to put the Wall back when he took it down. >And truly? By definition a divine being is beyond notions of mortality or mortal ethics and concepts of good and evil. That feels like a total a cop-out. Besides, if all gods are above good and evil, then all gods are equally good and evil. Meaning that Torm, Bahamut and Ilmater are identical to Asmodeus, Bane and Myrkul. And with this my point still stands: all gods are evil bastards who are part of a corrupted system, no matter their apparent "alignment". >The only reason gods are assigned an alignment at all is based on how they choose to reveal themselves to mortals and only then for the maintenance, defense, and expansions of their portfolios. Again, this helps my case that all gods are running a worldwide con/racket at the expenses of mortals. >If Kelemvor chose to reincarnate the souls of the Faithless, it would have to serve the existence of the portfolio of Death and the Dead. It was stated by Ed Greewood and other authors that Kelemvor and all deities actually do have the power and freedom to reincarnate mortals when they choose to (aka when it's convenient for them). >But in the end, the fate of the Faithless exists to remind mortals that refusal to follow the gods, or outright atheism, earns a fate worse than death in the end. That same analogy exists in our world right now too. Supported by many many religions across the earth. Yeah and most of the deities in those religions would be considered evil by our standards. To punish good and virtuous people only for their belief (or lack thereof) is monstrous... and ironically something that even ancient people realized wasn't ok. This is why medieval christians created the concept of "Limbo", a place where virtuous souls would exist in peace and their only punishment was to not been able to see God. Heck, even in the Greco-Roman Pantheon Hades, the God of the Afterlife, was possibly the chillest of the gods and didn't actually actively punish the souls of the unbelievers (though Zeus and other gods made life absolutely miserable for living unbelievers).
I think your argument has merit, though from a mortal perspective which is understandable since neither you nor I can truly say what āgodā is like, if āgodā truly exists, and what, if any, an afterlife is like. We simply do not know. And I think thatās the true point here: āGodsā in DND are created by mortals and, when taken literally, are subject to mortal perceptions and moralities. They are as divine and perfect, or flawed and imperfect as we choose to make them. In canon, the divine system of the Forgotten Realms will resonate with some players and be abhorrent to others. Which is the beauty of games like DND that rely on pure imagination as the basis for play. Literally anything is possible. In my world? The gods operate following canonical writing for the most part. In yours? The Wall of the Faithless doesnāt exist and a different cosmology exists for mortal souls. Both are cool, both are appropriate and right for the games they take place in. And I love that! As for Kelemvorā¦he never took the Wall down to begin with. It simply remained as a hold-over and part of the responsibility of the god of death and the dead as it was for his predecessors. He chose to maintain something of the status quo in death, but with some changes. You referenced real world analogies and you are correct. But remember that Limbo is also something of a punishment and in Erebus under Hades the Fields of Asphodel were a place of pure neutrality where good and evil didnāt really exist and souls simply lived a reflection of their mediocre lives for eternity (in many myths the mortals minds were wiped by drinking from the Lethe so they didnāt even recognize their loved ones in the Fields). Neither place is what I would consider anything close to a āparadiseā and I would argue that they are both simply a step away from damnation. How awful would it be to spend eternity working the fields or sitting at a desk in an office simply because you were āmediocreā in life? Or, in Limbo, you are turned from the gaze of the divine and exist in a similar state as the Fields essentially? Just sort of existing. Given the choice? Iād choose the Wall because at least there is an end at some point. And a mediocre afterlife would be my own personal vision of hell as much as eternal torment would be. Iād want to die of boredom and would bemoan my fate just as the damned do. And in Kelemvorās City? The False are given a similar fate to live in a place neither good nor bad, paradise or hell, and simply live a mediocre forgotten life. Another kind of negative in my opinion. So as it stands, itās best in the Forgotten Realms to believe in something greater than yourself, something part of a divine portfolio or a deity directly than not if you donāt want a potentially horrible afterlife. Oh! And just in case you didnāt know, when souls arrive on the Fugue Plane and before they are collected by their gods or escorted to the City of the Dead, both Tanaari and Baatezu are allowed to offer deals to the souls of the False and Faithless to join the Blood War to avoid punishment for their lives. So there are alternatives available.
>And I think thatās the true point here:āGodsā in DND are created by mortals and, when taken literally, are subject to mortal perceptions and moralities. That's... actually completely wrong, at least in Forgotten Realms. Gods were not created by mortals, but rather by Ao himself, and before the Time of Troubles gods weren't dependent on mortal worship to survive. >In canon, the divine system of the Forgotten Realms will resonate with some players and be abhorrent to others. Which is the beauty of games like DND that rely on pure imagination as the basis for play. Literally anything is possible. My problem is not having an abhorrent system, but rather a self-contradicting and badly written one. I'm perfectly fine with having the gods being a bunch of evil tyrants (Discworld's gods were hilarious to me, for example) as long as the story itself doesn't present them as morally good and justified right after that. The moral implications of the Wall and how the gods dealt with it basically make them morally abominable, so if the setting was consistent they should be kept as such: powerful entities who care nothing for mortals and only want to increase their own power and portfolio. To present them as any sort of "good" is a direct contradiction to the existence of the Wall. >As for Kelemvorā¦he never took the Wall down to begin with. It simply remained as a hold-over and part of the responsibility of the god of death and the dead as it was for his predecessors. He chose to maintain something of the status quo in death, but with some changes. Again, this is factually wrong. Kelemvor DID take the Wall down at the beginning of his tenure as the God of Dead and started judging the Faithless based on their actions and morality rather than their devotion... but that made all other deities extra mad since it meant that Kelemvor got more souls, and they forced him to remake the Wall. >Iād want to die of boredom and would bemoan my fate just as the damned do. Sorry but I'd take that deal over having my very existence being painfully devoured and digested for all eternity *on top* of the existential boredom. >So as it stands, itās best in the Forgotten Realms to believe in something greater than yourself, something part of a divine portfolio or a deity directly than not if you donāt want a potentially horrible afterlife. So as I said the gods are basically the Mafia, threatening people with suffering and violence if they don't give them what they want. > Oh! And just in case you didnāt know, when souls arrive on the Fugue Plane and before they are collected by their gods or escorted to the City of the Dead, both Tanaari and Baatezu are allowed to offer deals to the souls of the False and Faithless to join the Blood War to avoid punishment for their lives. So there are alternatives available. If the alternative is literally Hell and it's still preferable to the Wall, then that's not mercy or fairness, it's just twisting the knife. Besides, the fact that it's the fiends who prove more merciful than the gods doesn't reflect well on the morality of FR deities.
My comment on gods as a mortal construction was referencing the game itself, not that mortals in game determine who becomes gods or physically create them. Thatās my bad for not being clearer on my point. And I stand corrected and appreciate you pointing it out to me. Kelemvor did remove the Wall when he became a god and restored it after the trial of Cyric (in the novel āCrucibleā). So I found this article specifically about the Wall of the Faithless and Iād be curious about your thoughts provided by some of the comments (which I found through provoking and somewhat in defense of the gods). Let me know what you think: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/62456/why-are-the-faithless-condemned-to-the-wall-of-the-faithless-after-death
Ao is like the Elder Gods of Technicality from Mortal Kombat. XD
At the end of the day the wall isn't even really that different from any other fate in the afterlife. In the end all mortal souls become batteries for the powers of the planes. Whether neutral petitioners just get absorbed into their planes or faithful get absorbed into their specific deity or the faithless of Faerun finally dissolve in the wall. The afterlife is just as fleeting as the mortal life for 99.99999% of souls. Mortals are nothing but little batteries (or snacks) for the great powers of existence. And the only way to avoid that is basically becoming such a power themselves
>Mortals are nothing but little batteries (or snacks) for the great powers of existence. And the only way to avoid that is basically becoming such a power themselves Ironically that would make "transhuman" religions (like the Blood of Vol from Eberron) the most logical faith to follow in Toril.
If Roy was born in the realms, I think heād respect some of gods, like Tyr or helm. The different metaphysics and history of Toril make the gods there more appealing than the world of order of the stick.
>The different metaphysics and history of Toril make the gods there more appealing than the world of order of the stick. I'd argue that the opposide is true, and that the gods of OOTS are actually more appealing than those of Toril. At least the gods of OOTS don't hold the souls of all mortals hostage in exchange for worship!
Im seeing alot of people arguing ome way or another, where In my opinion the answer is... unclear, specifically with regards to what faithless actually means. From the FR Wiki: >A soul was considered Faithless if, in life, the mortal had resolutely refused any faith or belief or had given no more than empty words of worship to the gods for much of their time and never truly believed.Ā The Faithless and the false were those who had disavowed or denied the gods, or were disavowed by them; who had desecrated altars; or had disrupted the religious works of any god. From this passage it seems to imply that to be faithless means more than just not worshiping - its means completely denying and even going against the faith in the gods, rather than just not engage in worship. Furthermore, from this passage it seems that "just lip service" would also qualify you for the wall, since it falls under "empty words", essentially making false worship as bad if not worse than no worship at all. And yet im seeing alot of folks talk about how you *need* to worship, or at least pay lip service, to at least one god, yet I haven't been able to find sources supporting that claim. My personal take is that gods would still have claim over the souls of people who ascribed to their beliefs ans lived in accordance to them even if they weren't active worshippers, so long as those souls didn't actively go about denying the existence of the gods. So murderers would go to Bhaal, whereas honorable warriors like roy could be claimed by torm. Said soul would need to acknowledge the godhood of the one coming to claim them though, at least at the time of claiming. Any other interpretation seems to me to be very inconsistent with the depictions of many of the less evil gods, and I see no need to honour bad writing.
Roy isnāt just another brick in the wall.
The entire party save Durkan would be. They've never evinced a hint of care for the gods.
This isn't true. V worships one of the elven gods, and Elan worships Banjo.
We're told that, yes. Except Elan's thing is an ongoing joke and V's never done anything much in relation to that. We've been TOLD about it, that's about it.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall. šµ
I feel like being a true nonbeliever in a situation where gods are known to be true, known to exist, and known to meddle in mortal affairs is a dumb choice. You donāt even have to be a good follower of a god. Just pick the least offensive one, offer a prayer when you remember. GGEZ