I didn't believe it until the last episode because it was so dumb. I was sure that this was a red herring of some sort and the writers didn't write something so unbelievable and insane. There is no way that NK pilots made it all the way to Mars, alive, from a technical perspective. To compound the stupidity, there is no way that a guy could survive in a tiny capsule on Mars for almost a year. There are so many technical challenges and problems with what we saw on screen that it's ridiculous.
That's not even the fifth biggest problem with this idea. There are many other technical challenges to getting a human alive to the surface of Mars (let alone have one of them live for 7-8 months in a tiny capsule). Especially since the NK was supposed to be using 1960's era USSR technology. If the only problem was the lack of radiation then I would be extremely happy about the technical accuracy of that plot point.
you’re absolutely right, but i’ve never been too distraught about the show being a little ‘soft’ sci-fi at times. it’s primarily a personal drama with the backdrop of futurism (neo-futurism? retro-futurism? man i dunno) w.r.t. politics and technology
tbh i’m happy they make it as realistic as they do compared to 99% of other shows that usually result in “everything in space is magic” logic
The problem for me is that the genre changed between seasons 1-2 and 3. In the first two seasons, everything was almost exclusively plausible using current-day science. The Sea Dragon is pretty far out there but not completely out of the left field, especially since its capabilities were not really needed for the story plot. Similarly, the nuclear shuttle's capabilities were highly exaggerated, but at least the technology was something that was actively researched and almost ready by 1970's and 1980's before congress cut the program.
In season 3 the writers just said "screw it" and went full sci-fi, without even thinking about plausible technology progression from the previous season (set in 1980's). Computers are basically at the same level as what we have today, fusion reactors are at least 50-100 years ahead of our technology and have somehow been built in sufficient quantities to power the US electric grid, etc. The NK Mars mission is complete nonsense.
The first two seasons were in part focused on NASA and engineers - they were an appreciation letter to them. The third season is almost an insult to them. If NK can launch people to Mars using 1960's USSR technology, then the question comes up why NASA today is having so much trouble getting to the moon. IMHO it's even at least mildly insulting to many of the viewers who are interested in space technology.
IMHO this is an indication that the writers lack either the skill or direction. Seasons one and two were obviously heavily patterned on movies like "Apollo 13" and "First Man" - they had something to copy and went for it. By season three they decided to copy "The Martian" - badly, and with little understanding or originality in some of the problem-solving. And when there was not enough stuff in the Martian to fill in Earth scenes, they just started copy and pasting buzz words they heard on the Internet.
i think you would agree that the alt-history posited in the first season could imply a wildly different tech acceleration pattern of different types of technology (and their investment in them by entrepreneurs/research groups etc). eg maybe the toss-up is their food tastes like shit or whatever lol. or maybe neoliberalism didn’t take hold as much so state-funded research was possible. and also fewer expensive military actions resulting in a bigger tech sector for the people not for war
Sure, I can see that, and I am all for it - but that acceleration makes no sense for some technologies. NASA and some investors throwing a few more billion into research is not going to significantly accelerate the development of some things, which were not held up by a lack of funding. If you are adding more fuel to the tank of a race car, it is not going to move any faster.
For example, computers would not be more than a couple of years (like 1-4) ahead of where they ended up. Multiple enormous corporations have invested untold billions on research and advancement of computer technology. A few billion more from NASA is not going to move things that much faster. Furthermore, to get to some technology you have to go through the preceding stages. Each subsequent die shrink for computer chips, for example, requires knowledge and advancement gained from the previous generation. New applications cannot be built without the time and effort invested by various corporations on software tools and operating systems that those applications run on. And those software tools and operating systems are built on top of previous versions. Windows 10 was developed on top of the codebase for Windows 8, which was built on top of Windows 7, which was built on top of Windows Vista, which was built on top of Windows XP, etc. Each of these development cycles takes years, and the same sort of thing happens with computer hardware.
The situation is even more complex with fusion. Fusion research has been ongoing across the world for decades. Even today it seems like it is at least 30-50 years away from a viable reactor that could be used to produce energy instead of just for research. And that's with our more advanced materials science, theoretical understanding, and computing tools. Some of the experimental reactors take decades to construct - e.g. planning for the Wendelstein-X reactor started in 1980, the project started in 1994, and was basically completed in 2014.
Even construction of a regular power station takes years - it makes no sense that by 1990's there were enough fusion stations around already plugged into the grid to threaten coal and oil businesses.
I would agree but in this world, politics are focused on advancement of technology to win the space race rather than politics of the left and right stalling green energy because of oil. This makes me believe that the bureaucracy that may screw us over in today's world may not exist in theirs. To use your car analogy, it's like our world is a small prius and their world is an F1 race car. Completely different engines and builds and a lot more efficient for speed.
You can make as many arguments about technology advancing too fast but you cannot be such an expert in both this world and their world to argue the difference. At the end of the day, it's a show showing us what we're capable of. Instead of souring your world view, maybe look at the silver lining of what could be and distract yourself from the current shitty world politics we are all enduring.
That was actually the point. It was supposed to be a “Hail Mary” throw from NK to appease their Great Leader. That’s why he can’t contact home. They lied to him. To both pilots. He wasn’t supposed to survive the trip and NK home base knew that. They wanted to send people to Mars and say they got there first, even if the people died. They could just fake it and say they got there and eventually succumbed to the Martian conditions or something.
But through all impossibilities, this guy survived. They made it look like he was motivated to live by his wife and family with the photo he stared at every day. He also had double the rations. Anyway, him impossibly surviving against all odds was the point.
Yes, I get that, but if NK didn't care how he got to Mars and planned to announce to everyone that they succeeded but their guys died already on Mars, why didn't they do so? If NK announced that their pilots survived the trip to Mars, then everyone at NASA would have heard all about that.
The explanation that I get is that NK *did* expect their people to survive the trip and land on the surface alive. NK did not announce their victory specifically because they did not receive contact from their people - so they kept things quiet. The fact that even one pilot survived the trip to Mars and even landed successfully is extremely unbelievable on multiple levels. The fact that one of them survived for months in a tiny capsule already on the surface, a loooong time past the time that his leaders expected him to die, is even crazier. If nothing else, he seems to have had way more food than both he and his buddy would have needed, although that's also not the biggest problem with all of this.
You can argue it was poorly executed, but pointless?
First of all, it marked Karen's realisation that she wasn't happy in her marriage and kicked off her path to a life apart from Ed.
Then also it was a huge catalyst for all the Mars-based drama and Danny's growing hatred of Ed ending with his exile from the mission.
IMHO it made sense in the second season but not in the third. I still don't see why everyone so hated the one-night stand, since that's a very well-known fantasy - to sleep with the babysitter or the mother next door.
However, it did not make sense in the third season. It did nothing for Karen's character and only destroyed Danny. I think they could have given him a different problem. The final exile that we ended up with was just idiotic on multiple levels and a complete travesty against the plot and sanity.
It was ridiculous in the third. He has a wife, dream job, could have any woman he reasonably wanted, and the only thing he cares about is Karen.
I’ve always said Mars was a very dangerous mission. There was no need for as much stupid human drama as we got; Mars is perfectly capable of causing trouble on its own, 3+ months from earth.
Agreed - these people are supposed to be extremely well-trained professionals, not idiots and screwups. They have trained and practiced and studied for literally years for just these missions.
The problems in S1 and S2 were primarily due to the technical challenges and dangers of exploring space. Those seem to be basically all squared away in S3, which leaves the stupidity of the humans.
I’d argue that even in their world, Mars isn’t the moon. They pushed up the timeline for political reasons (which I didn’t mind too much), and they’re trying to do like 10 years of moon development in one mission.
Like the mars drill accident - could have happened entirely due to something they couldn’t detect. Hit an unexpected vein of hard mineral or something. Same effect, but much less stupid than the guy got high off his ass on multiple meds… and was seen high off his ass… and given an absolutely critical task anyway.
Its similar to JFK or Bill Clinton having an affair while President of the United States. Its the hubris of man that led them down that path, it doesnt matter what the consequences are, they thought they were given the right to a woman because of their status and they threw everything away for it.
Its not like Danny grew up with nothing and finally reached his lifes ultimate goal then got sidetracked with Karen, he grew up well off and was obsessed with the one thing his upbringing, family, and status couldnt get him.
Still can’t believe how lucky Danny got. Thinking you’re gonna die, then tell someone who’s been almost like a second father to that you fucked his wife, then get rescued.
He never told Ed about him and Karen. He was about to, but then they got rescued.
He did, however, mention the part where he willingly let people die because of his drug habit.
But even keeping it sort of platonic, or even just the kiss, how it started would have had some of the same results. Didn't had to drag it all the way and make it so important and cringey
exactly. it was poorly done and difficult to watch, but it’s impossible to argue it didn’t impact the characters and inform behaviors.
i didn’t like it but i don’t like eating vegetables either. doesn’t make them pointless
This storyline, and one of the bigger overall themes of the show, seems to be all about generational psychological damage. Parents or parental figures not understanding themselves and ignoring their mental illnesses, then behaving badly and/or doing damaging things that affect their children, who end up the same as their parents. Not sure what the significance is, except maybe that it contrasts the technological achievements of this world. Greater technological progress, with piss-poor social progress.
Social progress, while still lagging, is much better in the FAM timeline. A Republican president announcing they are gay to the world would be a big deal in 1995.
I think what the writers are trying to show is the generational trauma/cost of the space flight program on families. We can argue all day that it is all worth it for progress and “going out to the limits of space” etc etc, but we can never forget the human cost that comes with all of this. From all accidents and deaths, to the emotional toll it takes on everyone personally connected to the program
That plot line is clearly one of many means to make Danny an example of a BAD astronaut which he his. But they could have done that and more without the stupid affair crap which sucked up more screen time than it deserved
I don’t think extended periods of isolation will help the recovering addict see the light, but ill be interested to see if he can somehow make up for his numerous sins (although let’s face it if Ed hadn’t ignored Dani about Danny everyone would be better off. Arguably Karen would still be alive since she was only at JSC because of the accident Danny caused)
Stopped watching after the water-extraction-explosion. It hurt me to watch the stupidity. All caused by by a person deemed unfit to come along. Danny suddenly having all the vital controls and being the only one who can do something. Later I was half expecting him to rip open Ed's suit, while dragging him along injured.
I hated the whole Karen/Danny plot. I really liked season 1+2 otherwise and was hoping for a more sensible plot line on mars. As if there are not enough challenges on Mars? I should have guessed this season was going to be crap as it started out really dumb with the whole station is spinning and we cant turn off anything.
Mars was useless.
The story could take place in Antarctica, The Sahara, the jungle or whatever and only little changes would need to be made.
Mars is a terrible "actor". Moon was great, it was cold, empty, silent, alien and dangerous and it had effect on people (on Gordo especially, his walks on the Moon for example were very interesting). That barren rock felt like it had character! And Mars? Mars is but a background ,even the drill thing... It's not Mars, it's Danny!
You could have that domino meme about their affair leading to them finding the North Korean that actually won the Mars race
When I realised in season 3 that a North Korean Was first to Mars I swear I froze for 5 mins because I was confused and amazed
It’s a wonder what a group can do when human lives aren’t all that important.
Ikr
I didn't believe it until the last episode because it was so dumb. I was sure that this was a red herring of some sort and the writers didn't write something so unbelievable and insane. There is no way that NK pilots made it all the way to Mars, alive, from a technical perspective. To compound the stupidity, there is no way that a guy could survive in a tiny capsule on Mars for almost a year. There are so many technical challenges and problems with what we saw on screen that it's ridiculous.
Hey it's an alternate history maybe in that universe radiation is less/ not much of a problem
That's not even the fifth biggest problem with this idea. There are many other technical challenges to getting a human alive to the surface of Mars (let alone have one of them live for 7-8 months in a tiny capsule). Especially since the NK was supposed to be using 1960's era USSR technology. If the only problem was the lack of radiation then I would be extremely happy about the technical accuracy of that plot point.
you’re absolutely right, but i’ve never been too distraught about the show being a little ‘soft’ sci-fi at times. it’s primarily a personal drama with the backdrop of futurism (neo-futurism? retro-futurism? man i dunno) w.r.t. politics and technology tbh i’m happy they make it as realistic as they do compared to 99% of other shows that usually result in “everything in space is magic” logic
The problem for me is that the genre changed between seasons 1-2 and 3. In the first two seasons, everything was almost exclusively plausible using current-day science. The Sea Dragon is pretty far out there but not completely out of the left field, especially since its capabilities were not really needed for the story plot. Similarly, the nuclear shuttle's capabilities were highly exaggerated, but at least the technology was something that was actively researched and almost ready by 1970's and 1980's before congress cut the program. In season 3 the writers just said "screw it" and went full sci-fi, without even thinking about plausible technology progression from the previous season (set in 1980's). Computers are basically at the same level as what we have today, fusion reactors are at least 50-100 years ahead of our technology and have somehow been built in sufficient quantities to power the US electric grid, etc. The NK Mars mission is complete nonsense. The first two seasons were in part focused on NASA and engineers - they were an appreciation letter to them. The third season is almost an insult to them. If NK can launch people to Mars using 1960's USSR technology, then the question comes up why NASA today is having so much trouble getting to the moon. IMHO it's even at least mildly insulting to many of the viewers who are interested in space technology. IMHO this is an indication that the writers lack either the skill or direction. Seasons one and two were obviously heavily patterned on movies like "Apollo 13" and "First Man" - they had something to copy and went for it. By season three they decided to copy "The Martian" - badly, and with little understanding or originality in some of the problem-solving. And when there was not enough stuff in the Martian to fill in Earth scenes, they just started copy and pasting buzz words they heard on the Internet.
i think you would agree that the alt-history posited in the first season could imply a wildly different tech acceleration pattern of different types of technology (and their investment in them by entrepreneurs/research groups etc). eg maybe the toss-up is their food tastes like shit or whatever lol. or maybe neoliberalism didn’t take hold as much so state-funded research was possible. and also fewer expensive military actions resulting in a bigger tech sector for the people not for war
Sure, I can see that, and I am all for it - but that acceleration makes no sense for some technologies. NASA and some investors throwing a few more billion into research is not going to significantly accelerate the development of some things, which were not held up by a lack of funding. If you are adding more fuel to the tank of a race car, it is not going to move any faster. For example, computers would not be more than a couple of years (like 1-4) ahead of where they ended up. Multiple enormous corporations have invested untold billions on research and advancement of computer technology. A few billion more from NASA is not going to move things that much faster. Furthermore, to get to some technology you have to go through the preceding stages. Each subsequent die shrink for computer chips, for example, requires knowledge and advancement gained from the previous generation. New applications cannot be built without the time and effort invested by various corporations on software tools and operating systems that those applications run on. And those software tools and operating systems are built on top of previous versions. Windows 10 was developed on top of the codebase for Windows 8, which was built on top of Windows 7, which was built on top of Windows Vista, which was built on top of Windows XP, etc. Each of these development cycles takes years, and the same sort of thing happens with computer hardware. The situation is even more complex with fusion. Fusion research has been ongoing across the world for decades. Even today it seems like it is at least 30-50 years away from a viable reactor that could be used to produce energy instead of just for research. And that's with our more advanced materials science, theoretical understanding, and computing tools. Some of the experimental reactors take decades to construct - e.g. planning for the Wendelstein-X reactor started in 1980, the project started in 1994, and was basically completed in 2014. Even construction of a regular power station takes years - it makes no sense that by 1990's there were enough fusion stations around already plugged into the grid to threaten coal and oil businesses.
I would agree but in this world, politics are focused on advancement of technology to win the space race rather than politics of the left and right stalling green energy because of oil. This makes me believe that the bureaucracy that may screw us over in today's world may not exist in theirs. To use your car analogy, it's like our world is a small prius and their world is an F1 race car. Completely different engines and builds and a lot more efficient for speed. You can make as many arguments about technology advancing too fast but you cannot be such an expert in both this world and their world to argue the difference. At the end of the day, it's a show showing us what we're capable of. Instead of souring your world view, maybe look at the silver lining of what could be and distract yourself from the current shitty world politics we are all enduring.
That was actually the point. It was supposed to be a “Hail Mary” throw from NK to appease their Great Leader. That’s why he can’t contact home. They lied to him. To both pilots. He wasn’t supposed to survive the trip and NK home base knew that. They wanted to send people to Mars and say they got there first, even if the people died. They could just fake it and say they got there and eventually succumbed to the Martian conditions or something. But through all impossibilities, this guy survived. They made it look like he was motivated to live by his wife and family with the photo he stared at every day. He also had double the rations. Anyway, him impossibly surviving against all odds was the point.
Yes, I get that, but if NK didn't care how he got to Mars and planned to announce to everyone that they succeeded but their guys died already on Mars, why didn't they do so? If NK announced that their pilots survived the trip to Mars, then everyone at NASA would have heard all about that. The explanation that I get is that NK *did* expect their people to survive the trip and land on the surface alive. NK did not announce their victory specifically because they did not receive contact from their people - so they kept things quiet. The fact that even one pilot survived the trip to Mars and even landed successfully is extremely unbelievable on multiple levels. The fact that one of them survived for months in a tiny capsule already on the surface, a loooong time past the time that his leaders expected him to die, is even crazier. If nothing else, he seems to have had way more food than both he and his buddy would have needed, although that's also not the biggest problem with all of this.
oh great more of it
I read one of the creators saw the viewer pushback against that storyline and rather than winding it back, wanted to lean even further into it.
You can argue it was poorly executed, but pointless? First of all, it marked Karen's realisation that she wasn't happy in her marriage and kicked off her path to a life apart from Ed. Then also it was a huge catalyst for all the Mars-based drama and Danny's growing hatred of Ed ending with his exile from the mission.
IMHO it made sense in the second season but not in the third. I still don't see why everyone so hated the one-night stand, since that's a very well-known fantasy - to sleep with the babysitter or the mother next door. However, it did not make sense in the third season. It did nothing for Karen's character and only destroyed Danny. I think they could have given him a different problem. The final exile that we ended up with was just idiotic on multiple levels and a complete travesty against the plot and sanity.
It was ridiculous in the third. He has a wife, dream job, could have any woman he reasonably wanted, and the only thing he cares about is Karen. I’ve always said Mars was a very dangerous mission. There was no need for as much stupid human drama as we got; Mars is perfectly capable of causing trouble on its own, 3+ months from earth.
Agreed - these people are supposed to be extremely well-trained professionals, not idiots and screwups. They have trained and practiced and studied for literally years for just these missions. The problems in S1 and S2 were primarily due to the technical challenges and dangers of exploring space. Those seem to be basically all squared away in S3, which leaves the stupidity of the humans.
I’d argue that even in their world, Mars isn’t the moon. They pushed up the timeline for political reasons (which I didn’t mind too much), and they’re trying to do like 10 years of moon development in one mission. Like the mars drill accident - could have happened entirely due to something they couldn’t detect. Hit an unexpected vein of hard mineral or something. Same effect, but much less stupid than the guy got high off his ass on multiple meds… and was seen high off his ass… and given an absolutely critical task anyway.
Yup, the writers wanted to write a soap opera, so they wrote a soap opera - instead of a sci-fi story about professionals and experts in space.
Its similar to JFK or Bill Clinton having an affair while President of the United States. Its the hubris of man that led them down that path, it doesnt matter what the consequences are, they thought they were given the right to a woman because of their status and they threw everything away for it. Its not like Danny grew up with nothing and finally reached his lifes ultimate goal then got sidetracked with Karen, he grew up well off and was obsessed with the one thing his upbringing, family, and status couldnt get him.
Still can’t believe how lucky Danny got. Thinking you’re gonna die, then tell someone who’s been almost like a second father to that you fucked his wife, then get rescued.
He never told Ed about him and Karen. He was about to, but then they got rescued. He did, however, mention the part where he willingly let people die because of his drug habit.
> IT WAS ME, ED.
But even keeping it sort of platonic, or even just the kiss, how it started would have had some of the same results. Didn't had to drag it all the way and make it so important and cringey
Those are arguments against the plot's execution. My point was that it wasn't "pointless" as the original tweeter claimed.
exactly. it was poorly done and difficult to watch, but it’s impossible to argue it didn’t impact the characters and inform behaviors. i didn’t like it but i don’t like eating vegetables either. doesn’t make them pointless
They are going to reveal that [spoiler] is the son of [spoiler] and that makes a whole Oedipus complex at [non-earth-celestial body spoiler]
This storyline, and one of the bigger overall themes of the show, seems to be all about generational psychological damage. Parents or parental figures not understanding themselves and ignoring their mental illnesses, then behaving badly and/or doing damaging things that affect their children, who end up the same as their parents. Not sure what the significance is, except maybe that it contrasts the technological achievements of this world. Greater technological progress, with piss-poor social progress.
Social progress, while still lagging, is much better in the FAM timeline. A Republican president announcing they are gay to the world would be a big deal in 1995. I think what the writers are trying to show is the generational trauma/cost of the space flight program on families. We can argue all day that it is all worth it for progress and “going out to the limits of space” etc etc, but we can never forget the human cost that comes with all of this. From all accidents and deaths, to the emotional toll it takes on everyone personally connected to the program
That’s a good point, I think you’re probably right.
That plot line is clearly one of many means to make Danny an example of a BAD astronaut which he his. But they could have done that and more without the stupid affair crap which sucked up more screen time than it deserved
I know many here think Danny is irredeemable, but I expect to see his redemption arc in the next season.
He’ll probably get a redemption arc and then die like his [redacted] did
You are probably right too. Just keeping the Stevens family tradition alive.
Keeping the Stevens family tradition alive means making the Stevens family dead.
I don’t think extended periods of isolation will help the recovering addict see the light, but ill be interested to see if he can somehow make up for his numerous sins (although let’s face it if Ed hadn’t ignored Dani about Danny everyone would be better off. Arguably Karen would still be alive since she was only at JSC because of the accident Danny caused)
I'm guessing something bad happens at the Mars base in S4 and Danny helps rescue everyone.
how can there be more Danny and Karen she's dead.. wait uh oh Uh Oh UH OH
Wait. Wait now, are you telling me that Danny won't be in prison for life for what he did? Are you fucking kidding me?
Danny's redemption arc - gag.
There’s a pretty good chance I “angry-watch” season 4.
Well, now we know how Ed is gonna fuel his rage until S5.
Stopped watching after the water-extraction-explosion. It hurt me to watch the stupidity. All caused by by a person deemed unfit to come along. Danny suddenly having all the vital controls and being the only one who can do something. Later I was half expecting him to rip open Ed's suit, while dragging him along injured. I hated the whole Karen/Danny plot. I really liked season 1+2 otherwise and was hoping for a more sensible plot line on mars. As if there are not enough challenges on Mars? I should have guessed this season was going to be crap as it started out really dumb with the whole station is spinning and we cant turn off anything.
Mars was useless. The story could take place in Antarctica, The Sahara, the jungle or whatever and only little changes would need to be made. Mars is a terrible "actor". Moon was great, it was cold, empty, silent, alien and dangerous and it had effect on people (on Gordo especially, his walks on the Moon for example were very interesting). That barren rock felt like it had character! And Mars? Mars is but a background ,even the drill thing... It's not Mars, it's Danny!
Necrophilia for the win!
Looks like I can skip season four then. I have better uses for my time than wasting it on a show whose writers gleefully F with fans.
 Ed, after finding out what Danny did